[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[chamber]

I don't think anyone on MS will be able to intuit how balanced this setup is and that math needs to be run. Too many unusual elements. With that said, my intuition says this setup is massively scum sided.

3/16 is a little light in terms of pure numbers on the mafia team, but a doublekill is insanely powerful, the doctors collectively only add up to about a real doctors worth of power, and the tracker is highly gimped by both the fruit vendor and the fact that doctors will be trying to target people that die and failing to look different from mafia when successful 2/3rds of the time. The only way I see this being balanced is if the open nature of the setup makes 5 named townies have much more value than I anticipate.

[wgeurts]

There's a 26.7% chance of a kill being blocked night 1.

[wgeurts]

That's more than the Doctors 6ish% being on his own. Mind you my numbers are based off all doctors together, there's 26.7% of there being a kill blocked in general.

[wgeurts]

Removing the fruit vendor is something I would consider.

[chamber]

The fruit vendor is almost surely added town power.

[chamber]

There's a 26.7% chance of a kill being blocked night 1.

Your math seems bad to me (so please go through it) but even assuming thats accurate that means that 3/4s of the time there are 2 kills. Do you understand how OP 2 kills are?

[wgeurts]

You have a point, also my math is based off there being 1 kill blocked. I would have to recalculate for 2 kills.

[wgeurts]

My numbers were flawed, there is a 6.6% of a kill being blocked night 1.

[chamber]

I think it would functionally be higher than that. (kills aren't random so doc attempts wouldn't be either), still terrible for the town though.

[wgeurts]

So basically 3 element doctors add up to 1 doctor, meaning I should remove the 2nd night-kill.
Games could last horribly long in that case, I need opinions on the best of these two:

Large Elements

1 Fire Goon
1 Water Goon
1 Earth Goon

3 Elemental Doctors
1 Tracker
8 VT's

1 Elemental Serial Killer

• Elemental Doctor chooses an element to protect from as well as a target.
  
• Mafia have 1 night-kill.
  
• Mafia element not revealed on death.
  
• Elemental Serial Killer chooses an element as well as a target.

Normal Elemental

1 Fire Goon
1 Water Goon
1 Earth Goon

3 Elemental Doctors
1 Tracker
6 VT's

• Elemental Doctors choose an element as well as a target.
  
• Mafia have 1 night-kill.
  
• Mafia element isn't revealed on death.

[Riddleton]

normal elementals is still broken to my strategy earlier for 1 goon vs 3 docs.

[TierShift]

that's not a problem, I think. 3 doctors and only 1 scum alive SHOULD be a town win.

[Bicephalous Bob]

4p setups

Rebels in the Gallows

King
Guard
2 Rebels

King and Guard know each other's identity. If the Guard is lynched Day 1, the game continues to 3p lylo*. If a rebel is lynched Day 1, the other Rebel is confirmed to him. The lynched Rebel then immediately has to guess the King's identity.

Rebels win if the King is lynched or called out. King and Guard win if the King survives and isn't called out.

*This is optimal for scum.

Spoiler: Variations

Guarding the Gallows

King
Guard
2 Rebels

King and Guard know each other's identity. If the Guard is lynched Day 1, the game continues to 3p lylo. If a rebel is lynched Day 1, the

Guard

is confirmed to him. The lynched Rebel then immediately has to guess the King's identity.

Rebels win if the King is lynched or called out. King and Guard win if the King survives and isn't called out.

Escaping the Gallows

King
Guard
2 Rebels

King and Guard know each other's identity. If the Guard is lynched Day 1, the game continues to 3p lylo. If a rebel is lynched Day 1, the

King

is confirmed to him. The lynched Rebel then immediately has to guess the

Guard

's identity.

Rebels win if the King is lynched or the Guard is called out. King and Guard win if the King survives and the Guard isn't called out.

[BBmolla]

Guarding the Gallows is probably a better variant?

Thinking on it.

Edit: Yeah Guarding is better.

[TierShift]

I like guarding the gallows. Almost mafia.

[BBmolla]

Rebels in the Palace is basically mafia where town only need one specific member dead anyway

[wgeurts]

normal elementals is still broken to my strategy earlier for 1 goon vs 3 docs.

The docs wouldn't know which element is alive. However what could be a possibility is that with each death of an element mafia the remaining mafia gain the dead guy's element and from then on have to choose between the two.
The last element mafia could then choose between all the elements.

[wgeurts]

Final versions, if this provides any more problems I'll give up on the setup:

Elements Large

1 Fire Element Goon
1 Water Element Goon
1 Earth Element Goon

3 Elemental Doctors
1 Tracker
8 VT's

1 Elemental Serial Killer

• If an element goon dies the other remaining element goons then gain the element of the dead element goon. They from then on must also say which element to use if they take a kill.
  
• Elemental doctors must also name one element (Fire, Water or Earth) as well as a target. They will only protect against kills using that element.
  
• The elemental serial killer survives one night kill and must say which element he wants to use for a kill.
  
• The element of an elemental goon isn't revealed to the town on death.

[BBmolla]

Flame and Freeze Mafia

11 Players

1 Mafia Flame Strong-willed Goon
1 Mafia Freeze Strong-willed Goon

1 Town Tracker
1 Town Freeze Jailkeeper
1 Town Flame Jailkeeper
6 Vanilla Townies

• Mafia do not have a factional kill.
  
• Instead, the Flame Goon can make Flame Kills and the Freeze Goon can make Freeze kills.
  
• Flame Jailkeeper protects against Flame Kills.
  
• Freeze Jailkeeper protects against Freeze Kills.
  
• Kill flavor is unspecified.

I was inspired. May be optimal to not use both kills, as if you do Tracker innocents become true innocents. Or just double kill with both to ensure kill.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

4p setups

Rebels in the Gallows

King
Guard
2 Rebels

King and Guard know each other's identity. If the Guard is lynched Day 1, the game continues to 3p lylo*. If a rebel is lynched Day 1, the other Rebel is confirmed to him. The lynched Rebel then immediately has to guess the King's identity.

Rebels win if the King is lynched or called out. King and Guard win if the King survives and isn't called out.

*This is optimal for scum.

Spoiler: Variations

Guarding the Gallows

King
Guard
2 Rebels

King and Guard know each other's identity. If the Guard is lynched Day 1, the game continues to 3p lylo. If a rebel is lynched Day 1, the

Guard

is confirmed to him. The lynched Rebel then immediately has to guess the King's identity.

Rebels win if the King is lynched or called out. King and Guard win if the King survives and isn't called out.

Escaping the Gallows

King
Guard
2 Rebels

King and Guard know each other's identity. If the Guard is lynched Day 1, the game continues to 3p lylo. If a rebel is lynched Day 1, the

King

is confirmed to him. The lynched Rebel then immediately has to guess the

Guard

's identity.

Rebels win if the King is lynched or the Guard is called out. King and Guard win if the King survives and the Guard isn't called out.

I would play rebels in the palace with 12 players

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Okay, I refined the kings civil war set-up to look more like mafia

1 mafia informer
1 mafia goon

5 vanilla town
1 town king
1 town informer

- The mafia informer informs a player that the wrong player is king
-Game starts in the night with the mafia inform picking one player to inform, and the town informer picking one player to confirm the king's identity to.
- Town Win Con: Protecting the King + Eliminating Scum
- Mafia Win Con: Killing the King
- NK is allowed by goon on N1

Why this design is superior
- The informer mechanic is flavorful, because it allows town to know who they are protecting, but at the risk of informing mafia
- The town has the advantage of informing players of the king.
- Mafia has the advantage of informing players who the wrong king is.

There is much more confusion and strategy for the PR's to ponder on.

[PokerFace]

You can run two micros at once

Yo come to titus meet in two weeks

I don't entirely want to run 2 at once. Would rather run 1 at a time

And no way I go to titus meet. I am in ohio, its in sacramento, i have not prepared in anyway, its not gonna happen.

[BBmolla]

PokerFace I'll let you handle the King's Civil War setup, it's much closer to Rebels in the Palace than Mafia and I don't know shit about balancing Rebels in the Palace.

[PokerFace]

The green in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6334063 is better looking than all other greens on this page

I'll take a look at it when I get off work

in Rebels in the gallows the king will never get lynched as guard and king will not vote for king. Only way they loose is if he is called out

[Renascence]

All these setups blow