Open 576: The Enemy of my Enemy is my...Enemy? (Day 2)

[Oilura]

VOTE: 2birds1stone because I have no idea how to hit 2 birds with one stone. The second bird keep flying away from the stone.

[Oilura]

What makes you think my Astinus vote was the serious one?

My guess would be someone thought self-voting is scummy behavior.

@Astinus: Of all votes, why vote yourself? Did you vote yourself to deflect attention away from yourself, or to draw attention to yourself?

The percentage of people voting themselves as their first RVS vote is about 1%. The remaining 99% would vote someone.

That means you want to appear as a village idiot in order to veil your mafia/werewolf alignment...

...or you may be just acting like a village idiot in order to deflect mafia/werewolf attention off you (I do that sometimes in other sites).

[Oilura]

UNVOTE: 2birds1stone
VOTE: Astinus[/unvote]

I want to hear an explanation.

What's with the self vote astinus? How does that help anyone?

I have my reason for doing this...

This is not sufficient.

[Oilura]

VOTE: Astinus

zz bbcode problems...

[Oilura]

VOTE: Astinus
Because I want to.

Pretty sure this is town.

I know Astinus is very likely to be scum. How I arrive at this conclusion are explained by the following quotes by both our fellow players and myself:

UNVOTE: 2birds1stone
VOTE: Astinus[/unvote]

I want to hear an explanation.

What's with the self vote astinus? How does that help anyone?

I have my reason for doing this...

This is not sufficient.

I've read on the MafiaScum wiki that self-voting can help your game in certain circumstances, depending on your role. I feel that it would be beneficial to my game, so that is why I'm self-voting.

Assuming the wiki about this setup is correct, (was having trouble finding it earlier), this is the setup:

9 Townies
1 Mafia Amnesic Seer
1 Mafia Goon
1 Werewolf Amnesic Cop
1 Werewolf Goon


I'd like to here how self-voting is helpful for vanilla townies.

VOTE: Astinus

However, your post give me reasons for me to believe that you are somehow affiliated with him in-game. I want to know why self-voting is townish in a game where town consist of 9 townies (no power roles) from you.

I will UNVOTE: Astinus for the time being and VOTE: mastin2 for now to make sure you deliver a through explanation of your quote.

[Oilura]

What in the world...
VOTE: Oilura
The simple act of townreading someone is not indicative of alignment. Why aren't you asking Astinus those questions instead of mastin? I really don't like how you're voting someone just so they answer a question. Also you're reeking of OMGUS.

Oh, yeah, and your votes need to be on a separate line.

#1: He just townread someone BECAUSE said someone self-voted. Are you serious?

#2: I voted him because of that particular read and his now wanting to reveal his reasons for voting someone.

I promise there's explanations for basically all of these, but

I'm choosing not to state them until everyone's posted some more.

)

His 'walk in and lolol this game means nothing compared to me lololol' attitude, ridiculous townread on Astinus and seemingly random votes/reads make him seem scummy to me.

[Oilura]

Oh, and I want to know why self-voting makes that person a confirmed townie. If anything, it makes him look scummy, especially in a no PR game.

[Oilura]

*town power role

[Oilura]

Oilura, can you please unvote Astinus? This mod isn't counting votes/unvotes unless they're on separate lines.

You're misrepping hard. "confirmed town" isn't "pretty sure this is town".

Lemme ask you something: Do you really think Astinus's scumpartner would be dumb enough to out himself/herself on the 3rd page by being the only one to townread her? Second: Do you really think mastin would be able to stop an Astinus lynch by saying "Pretty sure this is town"? I'm not going to answer for her but put yourself in mastin's shoes for a sec.

#1: Usually, that is a no, but this is mastin we are talking about. She admits to being slightly mentally ill, after all.
#2: No, but I think mastin thinks she is able to do so.

I have the feeling that mastin isn't completely sane and might be accidentally outing himself.

[Oilura]

Also, VOTE: mastin2

[Oilura]

Dude, you just did it again... votes must be on separate lines...

And did you seriously just go after someone for their mental state...
I'm having difficulty not indirectly insulting you for that. That's literally the worst meta argument I've ever heard.

MS.net has a love-hate relationship with me and

my quirks

, about 50/50 split, even, and therefore I'm both famous and infamous, neither unjustifiably so. Overall, I'm only a mediocre player. But I digress.)

I think one of his quirks are claiming that a scumbuddy performing a scummy action is townish.

Also, didn't I

VOTE: mastin2

[Oilura]

Oilura is totally reacting to Mastin's Vote. Math has it right.

I am reacting to his reads, which I have no idea how he got them. Mastin seems to be pulling reads out of thin air, which made me suspicious of her. Once I know where he got his reads, I will stop voting him (unless he gives me even more reason to vote him).

[Oilura]

Reads:

Confirmed scum: Astinus (self-vote random vote)
Lurkers: Riabi, NJAC
Leaning towards scum: Teen Girl Squad (for the following quotes), mastin2

Actually,

UNVOTE: dragonspawn
VOTE: Astinus

for self-voting.

Actually, nah, let's wagon dragonspawn because it's fun to say.

UNVOTE: Astinus
VOTE: dragonspawn

Leaning towards town: Fink, dragonspawn

Null: Everyone else

[Oilura]

Oilura, what's your opinion on the relation between TGS and mastin then?

They are on opposing scumteams. One of them slipped up and the other is trying to pull of a gambit where if they are revealed, everyone will instantly suspect Astinus and lynch him.

I think both of them are goons (or the Werewolf equivalent of a goon) and Astinus is either a Seer or a (Werewolf) Cop.

[Oilura]

Oilura, what's your opinion on the relation between TGS and mastin then?

They are on opposing scumteams. One of them slipped up and the other is trying to pull of a gambit where if they are revealed, everyone will instantly suspect Astinus and lynch him.

I think both of them are goons (or the Werewolf equivalent of a goon) and Astinus is either a Seer or a (Werewolf) Cop.

Why do you think TGS slipped?

He thought he was town so he voted Astinus, then he realized he was scum so he voted someone else.

[Oilura]

Why would scum not vote for Astinus and town would?

Because he is a bad scum player (bad scums tend to buddy the other scum).

The rapid swapping of votes from a serious vote to an RVS vote is a telltale sign of a bad scum player. Why would town do such a thing? Bad or not, town would keep the vote to pressure him.

[Oilura]

Astinus honestly does read town outside of the scumclaim, for the reasons Mastin outlined.

The reasons Mastin outlined were gut and not believing actual scum would act as scummy as Astinus is, at least as far as I can tell. Seems like kind of a stretch to me.

@Oilura, is your vote on me seriously only based on some RVS shenanigans I pulled?

#1: Below quote:

I mean, I'm reasonably certain about a fair deal of my townreads:

Astinus

, Mathdino now, and now you are all

fairly strong townreads

.

Hmmm.....

#2: I don't have a vote on you. I am still pressuring Mastin2 because he kept the townread on Astinus despite Astinus doing nothing but lurking and defending thus far.

[Oilura]

Did I mention that Astinus's defense does not make any sense/is half-assed?

[Oilura]

@Oilura, To clarify: Mastin says her read on Astinus is strong. I think her reasoning is weak and was surprised 2birds agreed with it.

Not sure why 2birds will agree with it. Maybe she is insane/scum too.

So you think scum would be trying to lynch Astinus right now? Since you don't seem to mind associative reads this early in the game, who do you think the last scum is?

If I were to jump to conclusions, I would say 2birds is a scum power role in the other scum team/Astinus's goon, but the first possibility is odd because it means two players are making the same gambit (trying to preserve their buddy, which I am not sure why a scum power role would do that. 2 players without confidence in their play, maybe?) and the second possibility means one scum team has 3 players, as opposed to 2. I would say the first possibility is more likely.

(also sorry I must've mixed up your vote with Mastin's)

Why would scum not vote for Astinus and town would?

Because he is a bad scum player (bad scums tend to buddy the other scum).

The rapid swapping of votes from a serious vote to an RVS vote is a telltale sign of a bad scum player. Why would town do such a thing? Bad or not, town would keep the vote to pressure him.

This is... really confusing. Oilura, I notice that a lot of your scumreads hinge on them being bad scum (you mentioned earlier that you also think Mastin is scum playing poorly). What do you think good scum play would be at this point in the game?

I would say good scum play would be to play like a town in every point of the game. I also believe that screw-ups cannot be rectified and it is better to just die and not hurt your scumbuddy.

I thought it was obvious that my vote-hopping during RVS was something silly and attention-grabbing to help RVS go by faster, but let me state for the record: That's what it was. I thought Astinus was doing the same thing until she basically claimed scum.

That's why I did not vote you as of yet.

[Oilura]

Astinus is pretty much confirmed scum, mastin. Not because of self-voting but because there's no reason for town to act that way. Think.

I am. Which is why Astinus is town. I have VERY good reasons, and I really want to explain them, but I also really don't want to reveal them before Astinus posts content besides "I had my reasons" and "I'm doing the best I can for my faction".

Frankly, if Astinus keeps doing that, then I'll let her die. She'll die town, yes, but I'm not going to do her work for her, even though I very obviously can and to some extent am. She's had her moment of obscurity. But I want something from her. It doesn't even have to be a full-reveal. Content via scumhunting. Or content by revealing her reasons for doing the move. Preferably both, but either would work. She does that, then I will give you why she is without a doubt town. Because if what I think is going on, is going on...then pretty much now is the time for her to say it's going on.

But Astinus is in fact my strongest townread.

So some idiot lurker who claimed scum is your strongest townread?

Is that a scumclaim from you?

[Oilura]

I can't figure out Oilura's scumhunting-by-looking-for-scum-being-terrible-at-being scum technique.

I can't see terrible town or good town doing what they do. There is no reason for them to self-vote this early in the game (unless they are a bad jester or a bad scum who want to lose or something).

And let me add to that: Assuming scum are competent players, what do you look for?

Idiots who tunnel whole game. Remember that the very best scum player (I remember a thread about the not-remembering-your-role strategy) is indistinguishable from town.

[Oilura]

Okay you know what

Astinus

, answer the below before someone waltzes into the thread and hammers you.

Are you a VT?
Why did you self-vote? (explain everything, don't leave anything out)

Where EXACTLY did you read that self-voting will

help you

(link please)?

Who is scum?
Who is town?

In descending order of importance. Astinus, look at it this way; if you ARE a VT, you should have nothing to hide when you're THIS close to dying. If you end up getting lynched because you won't talk, then you've officially been useless to the game and your faction.

So talk.

Okay, I have to go to work in 9 minutes, but let me answer at least a few of your questions.

1. Yes, I am a VT
2. I will be thinking about this while I work, and have the answer within 4 hours.

3. This is where I found this info.. Yes, I know this is an Open game, but I figured that I could apply the gameplay tips in that article to any game I played in.

4 and 5. I will have to answer when I have more time.

Most of us know that there are very, very few circumstances when self-voting and/or hammering (as Town) is actually helpful to the town. This type of behavior should be kept out of Newbie games, because it does not teach the new players how to play the game correctly. You are not playing to fulfill your win condition as a Town player when you self-vote or self-hammer - a better example to set would be to show the new players how to talk your way out of that situation. Failing that, let the other players lynch you, as you're supposed to do. Remember that voting is the primary method we use to judge people's alignments, and by taking away someone's vote by self-voting, you are denying the town needed information.

Of course, if you're scum then feel free to self-vote/self-hammer. Self-voting/self-hammering as scum denies the town information and IS playing toward your win condition by confusing the remaining townies and allowing your partner to hide in the confusion.

As you can see, he basically scumclaimed. I am fairly certain he is scum (and by extension, mastin2 is scum too).

[Oilura]

Whoops. Forgot to

[/unvote]mastin2[/unvote]
VOTE: Astinus

Well, that's one scum down.

[Oilura]

D= BBcode D=

UNVOTE: mastin2
VOTE: Astinus[/unvote]

[Oilura]

And again D=

VOTE: Astinus

[Oilura]

Mastin2 is town? Interesting...

I thought he was scum. Well, there goes most of my reads.

As for why I hammered, it was because some of you implied that you wanted a hammer:

Astinus

, answer the below before someone waltzes into the thread and hammers you.

I'm also more than willing to

hammer Astinus in the near future

, once we've heard from her.

I am more than willing to hammer astinus if she fails to provide any information as promised. We are giving her plenty of time to pony up. But I will give plenty of time before.

[Oilura]

By the way, here are my current reads as of now:

Lurkers (Scum): NJAC, Riabi and Nova-Radiance.
VOTE: NJAC

[Oilura]

Mastin2 is town? Interesting...

I thought he was scum. Well, there goes most of my reads.

As for why I hammered, it was because some of you implied that you wanted a hammer:

Astinus

, answer the below before someone waltzes into the thread and hammers you.

I'm also more than willing to

hammer Astinus in the near future

, once we've heard from her.

I am more than willing to hammer astinus if she fails to provide any information as promised. We are giving her plenty of time to pony up. But I will give plenty of time before.

there is a reason I said we should let her have time. It's because I wanted her to have time to answer. If I wanted her dead I would have hammered and not given her time waiting for someone else to do it.

this excuse of yours seriously sucks

She answered. Her excuse was horrible, unless you want to say otherwise?

[Oilura]

I'm really disappointed in the hammer. And I disagree with your reasoning for it Oilura. A hammer when we had (was it 4 or 5) days left for discussion only benefits scum. I agree that Astinus should have been hammered, her play was weird and anti-town. But I also think there was plenty of more discussion we could have had both with her and others. For example, I was looking forward to seeing what Astinus had to say about Mastin's guess as to why she was playing like that. But, we'll never know now because of the quick hammer. Also, I was planning to spend a couple hours on Saturday morning to do a good full write up on everything that had gone on, but instead I come back from Trick-or-Treating on Friday night to find the thread locked.

Odd. Where I come from, we lynch scum the moment we are sure they are definitely scum.

Apparently they do it differently here.

[Oilura]

@2birds1stone: Some chatbox, where everyone's playstyle is to NOT GET LYNCHED NO MATTER WHAT. If they get lynched, they lose. Only the survivors win for some reason.

[Oilura]

so oil, why did you open with a defense of the hammer before anyone posted?

I was replying to Mathdino.

[Oilura]

@mod: It isn't Night 1 anymore.

[Oilura]

If I can't find the time for this I'll ask to be replaced, sorry. Just give me until tomorrow night, it doesn't look too hard to catch up 11 pages.

....

[Oilura]

Unfortunately despite searching the thread I can't seem to find the post, but at some point Oilura pointed out inactives with (scum). I don't think Oilura has really commented on any of our current player discussion, Oilura seems more concerned with covering himself than contributing.

Everyone who is posting seems town to me.

[Oilura]

Oilura, you have more townreads than there are town. Jussayin.

Yes, and that is why I am not posting. I can't seem to find scum today for some reason.

[Oilura]

Oilura

, try harder. I understand what your issue is, but scum here are harder to find than on other sites. You won't find them by searching for people who suck at the game. Sort your townreads maybe, use PoE. I assure you that there's scum in the active people of the past 2 pages.

If I use my gut, I would say that guille and Nova are scum.

It is pretty hard to find scum when there are 3+ lurkers (unless lurkers are scum).

[Oilura]

@Mod: Replace me.

[Oilura]

BTW I'm scum and so is 2birds1stone. K time to leave this site. Bye.