Mini 1623

[copper223]

Hey guys, let's have a fun game of mafia!

If you're curious about my playstyle, here's my first mafia game on MS:http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=59318

VOTE: mykonian for not random voting

[copper223]

Sure, why not.

[copper223]

VOTE: mykonian for not random voting

Neither are you...

what's your point?

[copper223]

@Dessew

Sure, the quick game summary:

- Town outsmarted itself by not lynching the obvious scum and thinking he was a VI but corrected the mistake the next day. Ultimately town lost due to a very unlucky set of circumstances that came about because a mafia lurker played against his win-con and created chaos.

what is important for you:

- You should get a baseline of my style as town, I like to scumhunt, I like readlists, I like information sharing and transparency and that's why I gave you the link, people are more likely to check it out if you give it to them and a more informed town is usually a winning town.

[copper223]

Very funny, do you find it scum indicative then?

[copper223]

@Dessew
It will help you to read me, it is also the play style I find to be the best to win games as town, so if you demand consistency from me, i.e.:
- give lots of readlists and explain your reads
- actively scumhunt and search for player motivations
Then I can demand the same from you and create a healthy town environment where scum is more likely to slip up.

What do you think now?

@Flubber
I don't like that naked vote, looks a lot like sheeping and following the path of least resistance without a reason, care to give one?

[copper223]

I also don't like it AK, but doing it after someone else gets called for it is less opportunistic and more contrarian

[copper223]

AK, sure I have been playing for years with friends and I tried playing with webcams a few times, I'm pretty new to forum mafia though.

[copper223]

sup myko, nat, flubbs, boon, ft, boon

hi anatole.

VOTE: mykonian for not random voting

Neither are you...

what's your point?

That I would be very surprised if nobody voted me for that post. Question was more when it happened. Which was really quick, you really liked that opportunity.

Hence, hardly random. You took the mainstream approach, hence you are lame.

Thoughts on Flubber?

well, aren't you a brilliant shitposter.

@Mykonian

That I would be very surprised if nobody voted me for that post. Question was more when it happened. Which was really quick, you really liked that opportunity.

Hence, hardly random. You took the mainstream approach, hence you are lame.

Lol, too bad if I'm lame but if a play is mainstream as you call it, there usually is a reason why. So why did you chose to make a post you knew would be potentially seen as scummy, starting the WIFOM game early?

[copper223]

Easy, RVS is generally accepted as a good way to start a game, you trying to disrupt it can therefore be seen as anti-town and I see no logical reason for a town player to be anti-town so you are more likely mafia here.

In all seriousness I don't care if you don't like RVS but what you are doing instead makes it impossible for me to get a read on you.

[copper223]

Mafia is a complex game, there is no one truth about how to play and I am willing to accept different ways to go about it if the player using them brings something to the table, that's why I said generally accepted. Why should that mean it's a bullshit argument?

I can see why RVS can be useful, artificial cross votes between mafia buddies, people crumbling when they have to defend their vote... are some favourable occurencies that can happen for town out of an RVS, I do not see what your depressed post about my lameness and the first comment about many here having silly names does to help town.

My vote was random at the start, I just voted for the first comment I saw and found a reasonable way to apply pressure, it's not random anymore because I don't understand what you are doing so I want to hear more from you, what reads, if any, do you have for instance?

As for arguing for something I don't really believe, I really believe RVS is the best way to start a game, but I can easily see myself taking that stance even if I didn't, applying pressure by building cases on people that might be mafia, to look for alignment indicators, is the way I play. Do you think being hypocritical is alignment indicative?

[copper223]

I just provided some examples for why I personally think that RVS is good, so even if that was the case in the previous post, now it's not.

[copper223]

I am trying to get information from you because what you are giving is meaningless to me, I'm not trying to misslynch you.

[copper223]

I already told you why I'm voting for you,

1. I read your post and RVSed you, the reason I gave was as good as any, but in this case I actually believed it was a genuine reason, recongnizing it is something I in particular like and not something everybody has to approve of I don't however see what you did as particularly alignment indicative per se.

2. Having read your answers and follow up comments I find that you are either dodging direct questions, like what your reads are or if you find something about my play scummy or not, or not giving alignment indicative statements, so I think you are a fine slot to pressure.

[copper223]

You don't get to decide how it works, in the same way as I can't force you to answer my questions. Since you are not answering me I'm going to start doing the same thing, why is my view on you important for your decision?

[copper223]

fair enough, this is the first semi-informative post I got from you.

[copper223]

Neither, probably town for using it as a scum-trap/discussion generator, but I need to meta you to see if you use it as scum as well.

[copper223]

VOTE: flubber
I don't like you joining the wagon and you are lurking.

[copper223]

@Flubber
why is your reaction once a wagon forms on you to town read everybody on it and to unvote?

[copper223]

@Dessew
I left out myko on purpose to see what he said, you were not on the wagon, you were the player he unvoted.
@Flubber
I don't buy it, maybe as you said it's something you wanted to do anyway but hey in that case you got unlucky, I doubt I will be changing my vote on you unless someone slips up in a huge way.

[copper223]

No surprise there, it would not be a hard task for scum to misslynch him if this is flubber's standard town play. Naked vote on a guy whose name he claim he doesn't remember, then when a wagon forms on him attempting to buy it off by giving town reads left and right, followed by removing his vote (I can still her the sound of the cave crashing). I don't have past experience with Flubber like you two nor do I think it's good to second guess yourself if you see someone playing scummy just because he looked scummy in the last game as well and he was town. Just do the guy a favour and lynch him, after the x-th mislynch as town I'm sure his game will improve.

[copper223]

I like that post CT, you and Dessew are easily my top townies for today. Still if myko is guilty of it so is Flubber, and he had an ulterior motive for calling me and Dessew town when he did.

[copper223]

Let's not forget asking which of us CT and Dessew found scummier, so he could make an informed decision about whom to build a counter wagon on.

[copper223]

@WIS

This is exactly what I do as town.

Really? Then you must consider yourself a paragon of scum when playing town then, if people started to vote for me I would ask myself: does their argument have merit, if not as Flubber is implying here, why are they voting for me? I would then use this to try and decide if it's a town or a mafia push or a mix and base my reads on that, I see none of that from Flubber; moreover it would never cross my mind to unvote someone, I vote people I think are scum and pressure others put on me is irrelevant unless it makes them even scummier, then I would vote for them, what is the town motivation for unvoting there? Other than what Flubber said about causality =/ correlation I don't see it and his reason is unverifiable. I don't need to have played with someone to tell you trying to buy yourself off of a lynch by giving surefire town reads, one of which I know to be true, is scummy.

[copper223]

@AK
Any particular reason why you are still voting Dessew?

[copper223]

It's statistically unlikely that all the scum players have been active, so for me one or more are probably in the lurker pool for now. I can see Flubber Swag / Boon , but I don't like associative reads without flips.

[copper223]

@AK
My bad, I was projecting my read of Swag as a possible mafia on yours. What do you find scummy about Swag's play?

[copper223]

Flubber, are you conscious of the fact that you seem to be playing differently from the other games we've finished together? Is it deliberate?

Yes I'd rather not lurk through this one.

You haven't really answered the question, though.

He completely answered it. He usually lurks...he's not lurking now. How did he not answer it?

Why are you hard defending a null read?

[copper223]

@AK
You are hard defending, soft defending would be something like I have seen boon doing that before. How is that a valid answer from Flubber, he is desperately trying to lurk but since he gets pinged every five seconds he has to reply once in a while.

[copper223]

The part where he takes the answer as given regardless of it's content.

AK did you go out with the dog

Cop: Yes I had a cup of tea

AK thanks for answering my question

[copper223]

technically he was correct in that Flubber gave an answer, but to feel the need to point that out after Dessew, legitimately in my mind, asks for a more in depth reply, I find questionable. Like why wouldn't you want to hear more from him even if you personally are satisfied, you might get something out of it or at the very least it might help some other town player.

[copper223]

@Fuz
That agenda is called looking for scum and giving reads.

[copper223]

It's statistically unlikely that all the scum players have been active, so for me one or more are probably in the lurker pool for now. I can see Flubber Swag / Boon , but I don't like associative reads without flips.

Convenient that you say scum is lurking when you have the most posts, are you someone that views lurking as always scummy?

Also, you don't like associative reads yet decide to give them anyways? Also, how can you get an associative read from a lurker?

No, but I always view it as anti-town, there is no convenience in the statement, it was pure statistics and the fact that mafia lurkers seem to be pretty common on this forum, convenient for your read on me that you chose that improbable spin to put on it.

Those are not reads, they are replies to what AK asked about the world being ready for a Flubber/Swag team and me replying with a catuous: I can see that, but I want to focus on my scumread Flubber for now. You can easily get associative reads on a lurker if another player defends him for no apparent reason.

[copper223]

I try not to lurk to endgame so I don't have to have a three hour catchup session come lylo.

If this happens to you a lot then you should ask yourself why they always let you live to lylo.
I don't know what to make of the rant, at least you are giving info now.

[copper223]

You three, Boon, FudZ, and Swag are so full of it.

If Flubber only makes these sort of rants when he is town, and I need for someone else neutral to this argument to verify that before I unvote, then the wagon on him was really useful.

I still find Boon shady as fuck regardless of Flubber's alignment, he first admits Flubber is scummy but goes on to say he usually is and he can't read him so he doesn't want to vote him now, but his read on him progressively becomes more and more towny without Flubber actually doing anything, until the rant where he decides Flubber should fake claim a role because he is so town, like wtf? That helps me a bit with your VI image though, even if you really think he is town, the downside of you being wrong is so huge I would never endorse that kind of play and it's not something I would imagine mafia would say, maybe you're just bad.

I really don't like Swag either for selective quoting, the main reason I was leaning scum on Flubber was his reaction to getting voted for lurking, which is a totally valid reason to vote someone btw, so that when he has to reply you can decide if he is mafia or not. You can agree or disagree with me that giving town reads to everyone on your wagon and unvoting is more or less scum indicative, although frankly you will never convince me it was not scummy, Flubber himself seems to imply it when he said that it was a coincidence that his reads came at the same time as when the wagon formed on him by those players, which implies that if it wasn't coincidence it would have been scummy, but not even mentioning it as Swag does strikes me as disingenuous.

FudZ I have to hear more from but for now he isn't making much sense, the only points I understood about his play was the vote on mykosian and Boon for being opportunistic.

Mykosian's town read has evaporated in the mean time, while AK looks pretty town to me because that read on Swag seems pretty legit.

I have nothing on Nati and I think she should start producing her own content.

[copper223]

Flubber do you understand that when you are signing into a game you imply you are going to play to your win conditions? Because I think you don't.

[copper223]

Flubber do you understand that when you are signing into a game you imply you are going to play to your win conditions? Because I think you don't.

Do you understand that when I tried to forward my wincon people scumread me because I usually suck at forwarding my wincon and there is a whole wagon following this logic? Because I think you don't.

Nope, is this even true? You can maybe argue that for myko and AK, since their read on you seems based on meta but definitely not for me and most likely not for Dessew.

I'd rather make an alt than play under that shitty meta if it's really the case.

Anyway this seems genuine, if I don't get a neutral third party opinion I'll try to meta you myself when I have the time.

[copper223]

UNVOTE: I will only be able to meta Flubber by tomorrow evening, hoped I could squeeze it in tonight but no luck, and I don't want to be part of his lynch without at least verifying his statements. He is still my top scum for now though.

[copper223]

Got added into a game because I still had a /confirmed in without number lying around so haven't had the chance to meta Flubber yet, but I like the last few posts I have seen from him.

[copper223]

@Nati

We have a mix of cliquey newbies, true newbies, and estranged veterans. It makes sense that gambity type stuff is kept to a minimum.

This makes sense, so which buddying group is more likely the scummy one to you?

-Copper/CT/Dessew

-Flubber/Boon/Swag

[copper223]

I'm wasting time on your meta Flubber and not getting much, I don't find your play the same from game to game so that read that your wagon is motivated by a meta shift looks kinda shitty to me.

This said Swag is probably mafia with you if you are mafia, especially after that distancing attempt after you both voted nati, who I now believe to be town, and he can also be mafia on his own, I like the buddying read from nati and he has been pretty active in that regard. Also:
- "I can assure you you are not scumhunting gods" (I'm sure you would be able to assure as as mafia).

VOTE: Swag

[copper223]

Anyone scumreading copper?

Are you?

[copper223]

It's funny cause I feel the same way about you. First you derail the Flubber lynch with a read on swag but then you join it with that meta bs, now you are looking for consensus on me when I try to move the thread along after a freeze, it looks like you are happy with town doing nothing. The only problem I have is it's unlikely you are mafia with the dumb trio or the buddying duo.

[copper223]

133 and 134

Tell me when and why your read of me became scummier.

[copper223]

@AK
My argument is you are sitting on the sidelines and happy about stalling.

My activity level decreased because I'm now playing 5 games onsite and because I can dedicate more time to MS on weekends.

Like CT, I also found the rant and the follow-up from Flubber more of a town than a mafia thing to do. What I have therefore been doing is taking reasonable ideas from players, like your and Nati's case on Swag and pushing to see what happens, since nobody else seems interested in scumhunting or alternatively is already commited to the idea that Flubber is scum, I'm also trying to figure out why people are scumreading Flubber but not his buddies Swag, FuD and Boon, or vice versa.

[copper223]

someone on team lynch flugger is scum
someone on team flubber's dick is scum

Why?

[copper223]

VOTE: Flubber

[copper223]

Dessew let's be real here, do you prefer a no lynch over Flubber and Boon? Because that is where this is going with your unvote. I also think Flubber's later posts are more town than mafia and am willing to switch to boon if it gets us a lynch, I am totally not ok switching if the choice is Flubber or NL, and mister AK in a very heavy handed way has already pushed the lynch towards Flubber.

[copper223]

@Mod
Is an extension of the daytime possible based on the amount of replacements and players active in this game to date?

[copper223]

VOTE: Reinoe

[copper223]

This game is such a joke.

[copper223]

VOTE: Boonskies I will unvote with an un ccd claim.

[copper223]

I don't believe I was scum reading AK? I have been falling behind in this game lately, and I apologize for that. Been busy in real life.

Sorry, I just read this post:

I'm inclined to vote Copper over Anatole in that situation. Maybe it's because of my bias towards loving Anatole because of our recent scum win together, and I'm blinded, but I would pick Copper over Anatole.

VOTE: Reinoe

What is this vote about? Frankly, I didn't even notice reinoe was in this game.

I'd like to hear more from Flubber about Boon, this whole thing just doesn't work out.

It was about doing nothing other than post against an extension, which is so anti town it's almost like your hammer on a PR claim without declaring intent, if Boon flips PR you should be auto-lynched just on general principle.

[copper223]

You are awful for not putting L-1 on you L-1 vote.

[copper223]

VOTE: Flubber

[copper223]

I trust him with quoting a post after my death that gives no alignment indicative information at all.

So can we knock the I trust Boons bullshit off? You're making it sound like I'm trusting him to hide my drugs from his fbi roommate and thats a really scummy misrep.

[copper223]

He is the most likely lynch and one of his main worries is distancing himself from Boon, how do you read that?

[copper223]

VOTE: Droog

Check Flubber pls

[copper223]

I agree with the list sans Flubber and you can add yourself.

[copper223]

yeah yall can lynch me tomorrow. surely with two scum down even you chuckleheads couldn't fuck this game up.

Is this a GG post?

[copper223]

Me neither, that's why you are going to die and if by chance you flip town we will lynch him too.

[copper223]

Night One has ended.
Night One has finished.
This Night, One Body Was Found.
However, this was the body of Boonskiies
Please Discard The Body of Boonskiies

Day Two Begins

huh no kill
what happened there?

Always fond of this one.

[copper223]

you guarantee the protective role dies tonight, in exchange for 1 confirmed, that's a very risk averse strategy that I don't find necessary given the position we are in.

[copper223]

Block him again and vote Droog.

[copper223]

There is no reason for Kafka to claim cop as mafia there so there is no reason to do anything other than lynch Droog today.

Also:

im debating between mykonian and boonskilss

Buss 1, buss 2?

[copper223]

UNVOTE:

There is the very remote possiblity that Kafka is a troll and is fake claiming as vanilla. If there is a second protective role I wouldn't mind a claim, because it's true it doesn't change anything.

[copper223]

Whatever

VOTE: Droog

[copper223]

he self hammered...

[copper223]

Why is this not locked yet?

[copper223]

VT

[copper223]

Just when I thought everybody knew this game is auto, you are still wasting time.

[copper223]

Before that, who's your check Kafka?

[copper223]

Yup that's what I guessed.

[copper223]

So how does this setup look:

Scum: Goon/Universal Backer/Godfather

Town: Cop/Doc/RB/RC

It doesn't seem imbalanced to me, if AK really is a PR, depending on what he claims, Mykonian may have a point.

There is however a simple way to confirm if Mykonian is godfather here, just sleep again a few times and let Kafka check some more people, if mafia is getting creative here they will have to act to stop this plan.

Since Mykonian is going hard on him and he claimed some sort of PR, AK is a good check.

VOTE: NL

[copper223]

So Cop/RB/RC and whatever AK is if relevant, vs Goon/UB/GF, looks plausible balance-wise to me, if a bit swingy given the UB.

I still see no reason not to NL and get some more checks before we proceed with lynching Mykonian, if nothing surprising happens.

[copper223]

I agree that Mykonian is the most likely scum/third party town needs to kill, but I fail to see how NL and getting extra checks is not a superior strategy to lynching Mykonian under all circumstances:

- If Mykonian is the last threat we will just get another check for free, after 2 or 3 he might as well concede.

- If Mykonian is town we will avoid lynching a medic and force scum to actually make a NK.

So everyone voting for Mykonian should be voting for a NL instead.

If you believe Mykonian is town, then I can see lynching someone else like Goblin or AK as the best use for today, but I don't see why you would believe that it is likely for Mykonian to be town in the first place.

[copper223]

Not much, FuD would have just signed his death warrant.

[copper223]

Decrease the odds of scum getting a useful PR in an already pretty balanced setup.

[copper223]

How is lynching Myko logical, when I just gave you a plan that stochastically dominates it, I fail to see.

Lynch Myko vs NL:

- Myko is scum -> same outcome.

- Myko is doc -> clearly better to NL.

[copper223]

Those are not normal so they cannot be part of this setup.

[copper223]

I have read it FuD, do you believe there is a 0% chance that Myko is not mafia? If you do then first of all I question your belief because I played with players who openly stated they were mafia only to then fip town, second our strats in this very special case are just as good.
I agree with Dessew that the more you push the more I want a check on you.

[copper223]

Yup, although live and not forum. Some people do weird shit when under pressure. I agree with you it seems super likely he is GF from the current game position, but he is totally right that if this is the case he is playing for the lols and has no chance of winning, so we might as well cover the alternatives.

With the number of afkers in this game it's also possible scum failed to submit a kill in the allotted time and that's why we got no kills.
For instancr Goblin claims to be a role cop that did not use his powers, he could easily be a mafia role cop in that case.

[copper223]

Or just lynch nati, anatole, fuduzn for the win. Probably in that order.

Enjoy your game guys.

Are you aware you have been hammered here?

[copper223]

This thread should be locked.

[copper223]

I think every player on the Mykonian lynch is a retard... that is unfortunately not alignment indicative.

This game is so interesting though I'm sticking around, I want all the checks before making comments.

[copper223]

Those are not normal so they cannot be part of this setup.

Werewolves are normal.

We're all retards tho.

Lol I was referring to cultists because werewolves were so uninportant to the question I did not even consider it when answering, cultists would actually change the game mechanic and would be a valid reason for not going with a NL, but as I said they are not normal.

You instead lynched a doc when you had a strategy that is always better, so yup, pretty much negative IQ.

[copper223]

I don't buy that we had no kill again, is there some loophole to play with cults in a normal game?

[copper223]

Just give us your check, or are you rescinding your role cop claim now?

[copper223]

Lol

[copper223]

I want the cop check.

[copper223]

I wouldn't mind a Goblin lynch for the fake claim, but he did not vote the doc, those who joined that lynch late or FuD for starting it have a much higher chance then average of being mafia.

[copper223]

I do not need to prove you fake claimed.

The fact you said your slot did not use it's powers

twice

in a row and you now failed to produce a third is all that is needed, are you kidding?

VOTE: Goblin

[copper223]

Also the fact you forgot about the NP can account for no NK, and you saying I was defending myko for

town cred

when yesterday everyone and his mother thought he was scum is probably something only scum would think about.

[copper223]

@Dessew
Why did FuD, the only one who can block kills if his claim is not fake, not kill the cop?

[copper223]

Just go with the flow.

So scum just need to be the first to FOS someone to win, honestly I despair about you.

[copper223]

No, I agree that we seem to have too many PR's, but since lynching the wrong ones is not something I'd be happy about I suggest every townie think carefully about which one is more likely scum and not that they "follow the flow".

[copper223]

To me the most likely scenario is Goblin did not post a kill since he forgot about the NP. Alternatives are Swag got blocked by FuD or FuD is chosing to NK to gain town cred with his blocks.

[copper223]

Sure, the question is where to start.

[copper223]

Lol no, forgetting about you is actually scum indicative to me.

[copper223]

confirm PR's / bust fake claims.

[copper223]

Because we lynched universal I have every reason to believe the RC is highly suspect, look for a PR, grab a PR. His play is also mafia sided.

[copper223]

Not really, I'm arguing you can't make a case on FuD just based on the setup.

[copper223]

AK was innoed by the cop

[copper223]

1 of the 2 PR's would be my suggestion Kafka.

[copper223]

The mod is not saying nobody died like he did for D2, I don't know if it's relevant, checks?

[copper223]

The point is N2 nobody died and the mod said

nobody died

, here we were given no explicit confirmation.

[copper223]

Why is scum still playing this game then?

[copper223]

VOTE: Goblin
Nice.

[copper223]

FuD, Flub thought you were getting ready to call the cop scum because you blocked him if he came out with a scum check on you, who did you block?

[copper223]

The PR in itself is not scum indicative, the way he played it is.

[copper223]

gg all, mafia got wrecked by our cop so there was not much that they could do, especially after we lynched correctly d1.

Thanks Empking for moderating.

[copper223]

My bad for thinking you were scum Flub, but Boon did a good job tying you with him.

Kafka: how did you decide to check Droog, that was a great check.