Open 577: Hope Plus One! (GAME OVER - SCUM WIN)

[Mathdino]

/confirm

Yeah I'm having some serious deja vu right now.

Same here.

Well hey there. Let's enjoy the prospect of trying to talk to each other as if we aren't all in a game together

[Mathdino]

I sometimes forget that site meta is different here. A town bloc is something we used to do on D1 where we would form up and use collective synchronized pressure to lead to better results D1.

Yeah, uh, how bout no? Voting blocs are generally bad and make it difficult to read the individuals.
Furthermore, asking to join a bloc or trying to create one early on is extremely scum-motivated. Any blocs or wagons that form need to form naturally.

[Mathdino]

Please read this if you're even considering the idea of a voting bloc.

No, I haven't, because they're bad and actually enforce the mob mentality that tends to kill town more often than not. Just don't do it.

[Mathdino]

Sigh. Look, Constantine, we're going to disagree on literally everything this game. I'm guessing a lot of MS players will disagree with you. But lemme outline the root of this:

1. You're not an MS player. If voting blocs seriously catch scum wherever you play, then I don't know what to say about the quality of your scum players.
2. You trust people D1 just for the hell of it? Even if they've done nothing to prove they're town? Trust your townreads, don't just set up an artificial block that statistically probably has scum in it.
3. Buddying is bad. Please no. Makes the game so much easier for scum.
4. Newbie, C+A, that other guy, if you join this you're probably going to be let down, I'll leave it at that.

Edit: I've never finished a game as scum, no.
Have you ever played as scum on MS before?
Can we not have this argument

every damn game

?

[Mathdino]

The only times buddying is acceptable is if you're confirmed town, or if it's a well thought out reaction test.

If you want to buddy someone and vote together with them, set up a hydra. Until then, trusting someone before the game's even started is terrible.

[Mathdino]

I think everyone confirmed,

mod

.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Aneninen
for asking to be in a townbloc.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Constantine
Because he's Constantine

Is this a serious vote?

Edit: Ninja'd.

[Mathdino]

Note to self: BMWS and C+A are not scum together.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Constantine
Because he's Constantine

RVS is over.

Man, already missed RVS
If so, then I guess I'll just
UNVOTE:
Interesting how Constantine gives two separate reasons for joining the game in 34 an 36. Not saying they both can't be true, but this switch is weird.

Why did you unvote directly before providing a reason to be suspicious of Constantine? Your 'random' vote wasn't exactly a bad one.

[Mathdino]

But not too early for townslips?

The idea is just that if y'all were scum together, BMWS probably would've known the hydra stuff. I honestly don't think that was a townslip though, I could see him doing that as scum with you as town.

[Mathdino]

One of us isn't making sense House, and I'm inclined to think it's you. I don't think BMWS's derp post is enough to make him town, but I think it's enough to show he's not scum with you. Your interaction with him doesn't say anything.

But here's the thing. If you think he's town for that, wouldn't that mean you agree that he's not scum with you? There's no disagreement here.

lol dat omgus

[Mathdino]

How bout you not talk about ongoing games, Constantine?

Not exactly ready for you to start clogging up the thread, mate.

@C+A: The issue is that 'townslip' doesn't discount the fact that he unvoted Constantine and then cast suspicion on him.

[Mathdino]

@Mod

: Can you publish the role PMs? It's an open setup, after all.

The role PMs are exactly taken from the wiki of the setup (with relevant names substituted in).

@Constantine: So what games are you talking about? Link, please. Because as I recall, Stack The Deck had me pushing scum to L-1 and lining up 2 scum players if a townie flipped town, and thesp's game was far from dominated by me.

@House: ??? So do you disagree with my logic, or are you just going to dismiss it and say it gives you bad vibes? Show me where I'm wrong, and tell me how saying that you and BMWS aren't scum together is in any way scum motivated. Scummy associatives would be "These guys are probably TvS, let's lynch them both!"

Edit: For the love of god, Constantine. For the love of god.

Edit2: Ah, but see, here's the thing. He random voted, that's cool. He was told random voting was over, cool. But then he unvoted because the RV made him look bad, and then cast suspicions that defended the vote that he'd just removed.

Edit3: Why did you sign up for this game?

[Mathdino]

You want to PL me for being wrong in the past?

I encourage people to look at this. Constantine successfully ignored the third party wincons, in fact ignoring everyone, used some of the worst logic I've ever seen... I could go on but I recommend you ISO him, Pine, and Flames.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Constantine's Amazing MS Game

Okay, so what's up guys? Fuduzn's humor is offsetting, right?

Kill:

Fuduzn

Daykills someone for having a post restriction requiring them to make jokes.

No.

This is actually a really iffy role that I'd call semi-bastard

1) Are you alligned with flames, who is also claiming to be TP?
2) What's the likelihood you both have the same role, like he's hinting at?

These questions will determine whether or not we're lynching him.

Thinks third parties are aligned with each other, thinks the unlikelihood of people having the same role means their claims are false.

Yeah, that does suck for you, but you kind of have to die now. That other guy too.

Or let me fucking fulfill my wincon so I can leave the game?

Tries to lynch third parties that self eliminate after a few days.

Full claim the third party role. Almost all TP roles involve killing someone, so you really need to give us some more information.

Untrue.

Flames, what is the name of your role. That sounds like a bastard role.

"That sounds like a bastard role" in a bastard game.

I want to know the truth now. Flames said that three people need to target anyone in the game.
Pine says three players need to directly target them. Either one of them is lying, they have different win conditions, or again, the mod made a mistake.

PE2: NO, GODDAMNIT. NOT THREE PEOPLE, 1/3. RIGHT THIS MINUTE IT'S 3. LATER IT DROPS TO 2, THEN 1, AND WE'RE GONE. LYNCHING SELF-ELIMINATING ROLES IS ANTITOWN

This is about the 5th time I think that Pine said that his role self-eliminates after 1/3 of the game targets him. Constantine continues to try to lynch him and Flames and paints them as liars due to literally not listening at all.

I'm giving Pine the benefit of the doubt. We lynch someone else today, and if doesn't hit scum, we're lynching him tomorrow.

Tries to line up a lynch on a third party for being wrong in the future. A self-eliminating provable harmless third party.

The kicker? Constantine was town.

Now let's look at this game:
Tries to start a townbloc (scum motivated, antitown).
Tries to policy lynch an active player for an

ongoing game

because he knows that my other games are bad reasons to lynch me.
Tries to completely ignore said active player.
Tries to get people to continue RVS when RVS is

over

.

You have a lot of gall trying to policy lynch me, brother. I've never claimed to be right all the time. But guess what? That's literally what you do every other post.
Link. The. Games. Or get the hell out.

[Mathdino]

I also would prefer it if MD and I ignore each other for the rest of day one, because no one signed up for drama, and it is literally just a "whos dick is larger" match with him.

Incorrect usage of literally

Constantine, if you didn't want drama,

why are you trying to policy me off the bat.

[Mathdino]

texcat, we have information in the first 2 pages when it comes to the BS voting bloc Const is trying to set up. If you want to look at that, by all means. It's why I'm voting Anenemimemenonymous.

[Mathdino]

That's because Constantine's meta is anti-town.

His playstyle. Is actually to try to screw over town.

I'd policy him if

there weren't actual suspects

. Which Constantine is willfully ignoring.

[Mathdino]

A vote for Constantine is a policy vote. That's all there is. Policy lynch is the last resort to not having suspects.

I find it interesting how you think I manipulated his playstyle when he decided to take initiative in trying to PL me for idiotic reasons. And then decided to completely ignore me. Quote the post where you think I tried to get a rise out of him.

You never did respond to my quesiton about the associatives. Where do you think my logic was off?

[Mathdino]

For the record, I'm not letting this become another mathdino dominated game. He didn't exactly lead town to scum in the last few games he was in, and I'm not ready for the mindless scum to start latching on to him.

#73 would like to have a word with you. Do you find this necessary? My 74 was an irritated response to the above.

Okay so here's what I'm not getting. Why do you find it okay to say "[X] is town" but not "[X] and [Y] are not scum together"? Because we used the exact same piece of evidence to arrive at our conclusions; I just don't we have enough to call BMWS definitively town this early.

Explain how this is scummy, or at least explain the scum motivation. The fact that you've yet to come up with a reason my logic is faulty makes me think you don't disagree with it.

[Mathdino]

The problem with pre-flip associatives is lining up lynches; "If Player A is town, Player B is scum. If Player C is scum, Player D is scum." It allows scum to easily set up a lynch on a townsperson later on, and make excuses as to lynching for information.

You're applying a buzzword to a statement I made that A. is quite founded based on the evidence, and B. has no scum motivation.

[Mathdino]

Your idea of a suspect (asking to /in for a townbloc) is his idea of an ally (the townbloc was his idea and he fished another member for it).

He's not ignoring your suspect, he obviously simply disagrees with you.

If such terribad pay is his playstyle and you know it, why do you toss fuel on the fire? Drama and chaos inhibits hunting.

I'm not asking him to vote the same person I am. I'm saying there've been enough people that've posted to come up with basic leads other than a policy lynch off the bat.

I'm also trying to discredit his wild accusations to discredit me before the game's even started. The first thing he says about me is he won't let this become a me-dominated game; in essence, he'll actively work to inhibit my participation in discussions. I, for one, won't let him try to get the playerlist and his 'allies' to ignore me.

Edit: Okay. Sure. Explain them to me then, please.

[Mathdino]

Okay. So firstly, I never used the word 'tell'. You did.

Second of all, you aren't listening to my logic. You assert that because BMWS didn't know who was in your hydra, he is town. I assert that because BMWS didn't know who was in your hydra, he cannot be scum with you. I find this to be a far more accurate statement than if I made it about any two players.

Does your statement that he's town not also have a 75% accuracy rate? Fact is, I don't fully agree with that. But what I can say is that I have a null-scum read on BMWS and a null-town read on you, and I've also provided other info on BMWS besides "this guy made a townslip", so yeah, I have been scumhunting, and yeah, I'm pretty sure my statement is correct.

You've yet to point out the flaw in my argument. Mostly because it's

the exact same argument you used

to prove he's town. I just arrived at a less confident conclusion.

[Mathdino]

So was my pre-flip association (you and BMWS are either town/town or town/scum) bad because:
1. It's dangerous (this is the usual reason pre-flip associatives are bad), or
2. It's fluff and a useless statement?

If 1, well, show me how. If 2, well, I've been scumhunting besides that one statement and participating in non-Constantine discussion. So I don't see what your issue is.

[Mathdino]

Are you new to mathematics?

From my standpoint, there are 12 other players, 3 of which are scum. 'Player x is town' has a 8/12, or 75% chance of being right. Subjective reasoning affects that. So you're wrong on that part, because a 50% chance of anyone being town would imply a 6 person scumteam.

So lemme get this straight.
1. You make the statement that BMWS is town based on your evidence.
2. I make the statement that BMWS/C+A is impossible (like 99% impossible), but BMWS can very well be scum.
3. You scumread me for... being right?

Again, you're using a scumhunting buzzword (pre-flip associatives) as a scumtell, which it's not. There are no scumtells. You can tell me that a pre-flip association might be

wrong

, or even

dangerous

, in which case I'll listen to you. But to say it's fake and call me scum for that, when I've done much more than make that one statement, is just plain tunnel vision.

[Mathdino]

Yeah, uh, no offence, but you can't do math.

There are 3 scum among 13 players. 12 players if you're town and discount yourself. If you randomly select one of these players, there's a 25% chance they're scum. There's a reason you roll town 3 times as often than you roll scum. I don't think you know what you're talking about here.

Aaaand again you ignore the rest of my analysis on what happened there. I absolutely said more than "these players aren't scum together". Anything ruling out possibilities is useful for the future.

Also, you claim there's 0 motivation to 'fake scumhunt', but what about thinking out loud? Because that's how I play. I don't care to look at how much analysis is in my posts, I just point out things as I go, and it usually ends up having analysis in it.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Constantine
Because he's Constantine

RVS is over.

Man, already missed RVS
If so, then I guess I'll just
UNVOTE:
Interesting how Constantine gives two separate reasons for joining the game in 34 an 36. Not saying they both can't be true, but this switch is weird.

Why did you unvote directly before providing a reason to be suspicious of Constantine? Your 'random' vote wasn't exactly a bad one.

@NRG: I pushed BMWS for this, which I still find a bit fishy, and is the root of my null-scum read. I talked about the probabilities of scumhunting because his math sucked and I had nothing better to do. Didn't feel like pushing him because he reads as misguided town. I think his point was that when I made the statement that BMWS/C+A aren't scum together, I made a statement that is extremely statistically likely, and thus I'm scum for saying something that's probably right while looking like I'm saying something profound.

Don't want to make this post a wall so I'll respond to Wake in another post.

[Mathdino]

@Wake

: Alright.

Townblocs

- see the wiki article I posted called On Townblocs. The idea is that if a townbloc forms naturally as a result of widely held townreads, it's harder to break and infiltrate, and it's much harder to get in later on. However, if someone literally asks to create a townbloc, it's insanely easy for scum to just bounce right in it. Trying to form one is an artificial method of gaining trust and thus has scum motivation. That said, Constantine is Constantine, and bad play does not a scum make.

Buddying

- Buddying is acceptable if you're confirmed town just because it doesn't make you suspicious. That's all I mean by 'acceptable'. There's a reason innocent child playstyle is pretty different from a typical town play.

Constantine

- Yeah. Sure. I'm fine with him as long as he's not using his bad play to influence an entire town's play, and as long as he's not using his vote to push a policy lynch.

House vs me

- Basically, I got in a pissing match with Constantine and used the hydra comment from BMWS to say that BMWS and you guys can't be scum together. I still don't think it's too early for that, since it's essentially a weaker version of the 'townslip' comment, but okay. House didn't like me for soft-defending Constantine (in terms of not wanting to get him lynched right now), and for defending a pre-flip associative. I then got in an argument with House that on my side essentially amounted to "Constantine started it" and "I've also done other stuff which you're ignoring".

Gravity's 126

- I don't know what I'm supposed to see here. It looks alright. Makes a good townish point of not jumping on Constantine. What do you see?

[Mathdino]

Alright, definitely not too early for reads lists.

C+A is pretty good on the townlist, will have to look at interactions later on because I may be townreading for playstyle. acryon's 123 is a good nuanced look at the game, gonna townread him for now. texcat's initial posts fit with a town-her, especially the lack of self-consciousness over RVS and frustratedness on the atmosphere. NRG is a null, has pretty much just asked "please explain" questions. Anen and BMWS are my initial scumreads, but I want Anen to check back in before I push too hard. Cultivation looks alright. Newbie's a null.

Not going to comment on Pastro because honestly I don't know what you're talking about, so I'm just gonna wait for his replacement and develop reads based on that. Constantine, no comment.

copper seems pretty good at face value, 137 is cool. 138, a townread on texcat for agreeing, is kinda weird to me. So I'm gonna go with a null but not due to lack of info.

Actually, rereading, it occurs to me that acryon is kind of appealing to both sides of me vs C+A with 123. The Pastro thing is stretching it a bit too, low-hanging fruit there. I want to see his reads before I make further comment.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Constantine
Because he's Constantine

RVS is over.

Man, already missed RVS
If so, then I guess I'll just
UNVOTE:
Interesting how Constantine gives two separate reasons for joining the game in 34 an 36. Not saying they both can't be true, but this switch is weird.

Why did you unvote directly before providing a reason to be suspicious of Constantine? Your 'random' vote wasn't exactly a bad one.

Alright, never mind, acryon's town, good. Questions for acryon:

1. Can you explain what the deal with Pastro and his getting banned and how that's relevant is? Also, the fact that you're predicting his replacement's play is going to nullify it, you know that.
2. Do you not like the vote on BMWS because you're townreading him for the townslip, or otherwise?
3. On C+A, I think it's generally agreeable that since BMWS (AFAIK) isn't exactly a conniving Machiavelli, his slip is very good proof that he's not scum with C+A. So wouldn't that make pointing out a possible townslip indeed pro-town? (on a sidenote, I think I'm going to be fairly good at reading BMWS this game, considering I know the guy and his style of speech/writing)
4. Can't agree on texcat, very reminiscent of newbtown. It looks like she just didn't want to participate or analyse the bickering between me, C+A, and Constantine. Other than us 3, there wasn't really that much content.

[Mathdino]

I did not intend to quote that. Dunno what's up with the quoting nonsense.

[Mathdino]

Right, so House, I don't think people get towncred nowadays for being right. And like I said (

which you continue to ignore

) I've already expanded on my suspicions of BMWS. The only reason we keep talking about my association is because you keep talking about it. Also, once again, I never used the word 'tell'. Stop misrepping.

Also your math still sucks. Any given player does not have a 50% chance of being scum. I think I should change my pet peeve from tunnel vision to shit math, considering I seem to get in these arguments a lot.
If anyone had a 50% chance of being scum, there would likely be 6 or 7 scum. That's idiotic.

Beginning to agree with acryon on how your playstyle isn't exactly helping the town. Still not willing to believe you're not just town who can't do math.

Edit: Dude. That's exactly what I was doing with the statement that you weren't scum with BMWS. Information sharing. It wasn't my SOLE contribution, and it certainly wasn't going to be, but I treat the thread as my personal notes on the game. Jesus.

[Mathdino]

Yeah, okay, Anen's town.

acryon, you're flipping back and forth on my reads list. Did you just unvote just to make one of C+A's points invalid? What was the purpose of that?

Constantine, you're one of the most (try-to-be) dominating players I've ever met. Jussayin.

[Mathdino]

Oh yeah forgot to unvote.
UNVOTE: Aneninonanunoninenanenynonymous

Hey texcat, what's your read on BMWS? I appreciate your thoughts above but at the end of the day the essence of the content is "I see what Dino is saying, C+A is probably town".
This is a fairly common read right now. So yeah, anything else?

[Mathdino]

copper has a good point to be made on BMWS, but I know he's been busy lately so I'm gonna wait until he has more time in order to make a decision on him.

I feel like acryon's latest post would be reworded like hell if it was scum. "there is never going to be traction for a Pastro lynch", "controversial nature of my read". Overall it seems like honest town.

NRG's Gravity vote seems a bit out of place, I feel like it's possibly tunnelfuel (as in, Gravity responds with something that NRG will find even scummier, cycle goes on). Can someone link us to you 2 played together?

Rudolph isn't doing much for his slot tbh. You are aware, Rudy, that I spent a few pages arguing with Constantine and C+A because 1. I had nothing better to do, and 2. I felt like he fundamentally wasn't understanding my point? The moment people started flooding in, I've been providing content. You're not looking at the context.
Also, Constantine pisses me off, so sorry about that.

[Mathdino]

Right, I understand, that's why I apologised for that multiple times.
My point is, that stopped immediately when the game became more than me/Constantine/C+A and you can see that if you read from when I think texcat checked in and RVS'd. Nothing since then's been fluff.
However during the me/Constantine/C+A stuff, there was no content to provide. C+A was town to me, and Constantine is Constantine.

I just found your read on me to be out-of-context and the read on Constantine to be not really helpful. And people CAN be read from 3 posts, just as easily as from 200. But hey, let's get your reads:
Whatcha think of texcat?
Whatcha think of BMWS?
Whatcha think of copper?

[Mathdino]

I'm sorry for not making it clear about my case on Gravity. In post 189, I actually tried to give some hints when I was giving my reads on Pastro, but I wanted to avoid redundancy. Now, I'll restate the whole case.

@Gravity

Arguments

1. You suspected Pastro for his following of Math with the exact same reasoning he used, but I'd like you to know that their motives were different.

For Pastro: In 119, He dismissed BMWS' reason of voting Constantine because "that's not a legitimate reason", and in the subsequent post he said the same thing to Constantine, but he had no idea that both of those were joke votes, considering that he wrote in a serious tone. This suggests that he was actually serious when he posted.

For Math: In 55, he asked a rhetorical question and used a very playful word (Ninja'd), so it's highly probable that he was just joking around when he posted.

So it isn't scummy for Pastro to use the same reasons as Math's, as their intentions were different.

2. A number of people happen to have the same opinions. For example, most of us agree that town blocks are unnecessary because people will be grouped together as the game goes on, and policy lynches are ill-advised. So, are we also scummy because of having the same reasons as one another's?

Meta

I'm not suspecting your eagerness to push the ones you regard as scummy. I'm talking about how such act contradicts your meta in previous games. You used to show a relatively careful approach towards your suspects even if you were feeling confident, and you wouldn't repeat why they were scummy. But in this game, you're the total opposite of who you were. You repeated your reasons of voting Pastro in 128 and 196. All these feel really scummy to me.

What even is this? Like what am I reading?
A. Did you just try to psychoanalyse me and assume Pastro and Gravity came to the same conclusion?
B. That question was not rhetorical, it read like a policy vote. 'Ninja'd' means that someone posted right before I did and I'm acknowledging their presence.
C. Having the same opinion is not scummy. A general pattern of sheeping is.
D. You're voting him for being wrong in your eyes? While soft-defending Pastro's slot?
VOTE: NRG
Fishy reasoning, seems like you made all that up to find him scummy and are using the meta argument to get us to believe you.

[Mathdino]

unvote, vote St Constantine the Hermit

Jesus man, just don't engage with him. If he's gonna talk about policy lynches all day while parking his vote on a townie out of spite, just let him do his thing and pray to god he's not a PR. Again, a vote on Constantine is a policy vote. If you want that, say so.

I don't think I really need to say that Constantine's thoughts on Aneninenaneinenoenanenenaoneennannenonymous are bad.

Will respond to Aninenaneonnenannenanenianeunaunnenaneneninenonymous's and Rudy's reads along with more thoughts later.

[Mathdino]

while parking his

vote on a townie

What makes you think you're confirmed town?

I'm confirmed town to myself, and I'm letting you do your thing. I was half talking to myself there.

My vote on him isn't policy. He's a hypocrite. He's shown in some posts he's capable of scumhunting, so I don't understand the temper tantrums.

Check his meta. He's from another site and he's not worth lynching for acting all high and mighty. Hypocrisy is his meta.

IF ANYTHING

, RDR appears to be voting me for no reason whatsoever, besides being someone making a lot of noise.

Then stop making noise. You don't get to shit on a playstyle that involves being active while trying to dominate the game yourself.

[Mathdino]

So you're saying St Constantine's a VI of sorts? I suppose I'll check out his meta, then. Does he do this as town & scum?

I have no idea, but yes, that's what I'm saying.

Observe the below 'civil and lighthearted gameplay':

It's going to be one of those games, is it?

Well, fuck you all

. You're obviously not all capable of

civil and lighthearted gameplay.

Seriously, you all act like

mafia nazis

. This is a game I play to make friends and have fun.
Does the word "Game" get lost on all of you?

/Replacing out. See me when MD and other

dipshit dominating players

are gone.

RDR, you're the VI. Your vote is

dumb as shit

, and I think

that should be pretty fucking obvious.

It is pretty much a policy lynch for mentioning policy lynches.

Get your votes off Constantine and read the dude who replaces him.

Edit: Observe the charming display of civility above.

[Mathdino]

Don't fuel the fire, MathDino.

Rudy, you're voting someone I think has a 3/12 chance of being scum for playstyle. Anything I say to try to convince you that he's always like this (He's a VI, his meta is being a hypocrite) is going to 'fuel the fire'.
Again, just don't engage and get the votes off him.

Edit: For the love of god, I NEVER VOTED YOU, CONSTANTINE.

[Mathdino]

I wouldn't have a problem with policy lynching him if we have problems getting a lynch before the deadline. I just don't like people making what are essentially policy votes and not owning up to it.

I'm kinda holding out hope that he'll just replace out like he said he would.

[Mathdino]

Check the replacement queue, Rudy.
Why is NRG replacing out?

Anyway, back to what I was doing. Still gonna analyse later.

Edit: Uh huh.

[Mathdino]

You're a wallposter, Anenanenaneinaneonnenaneninnaenonymous, and your posts aren't particularly hard to read. It makes sense that you'd be able to influence the game.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying about Constantine. He's always like that. We need to wait for his replacement to see how we read his slot.

Voting for lurkers is inherently policy voting (or pressure voting, which is legit), sorry. Lurking is not a scumtell, and I've lurked in games that I just can't get into. If anything, some people are less likely to do it as scum because they don't want to get lynched more than as town. We'll read Newbie's slot when she gets replaced too, and when the playerlist is stable we can really start analysing the gamestate.

[Mathdino]

Thanks NRG, good luck with whatever you're doing.

[Mathdino]

@Anenenaineonanenaonenaneinanenaynenaonenonymous: What do you think of BMWS's RVS vote/unvote? I think we have enough of texcat to get a read on her, but that may be just because I've played with her. Anything more on her?
I think your intuition on acryon may hold some ground. He is being a bit off and he keeps flipping on my reads list.

Ooh, copper makes a good point on Rudy. Going after Constantine after everything we said about him is unnecessary, and this statement:

I'm a little cautious at Newbie too for the reasons you describe. Posting in other games but not here could be a sign of apathy for this game (ie. he's not interested in this game very much) or lurker scum. Thanks for spotting that!

Looks like he's half picking on lurkers and half avoiding 'picking on lurkers'.

Okay seriously though guys, lurking is not a scumtell. Voting a lurker is a pressure vote or a policy vote, nothing more. That goes to I think Aneneblahblahblah, copper, Rudy, anyone else with issues with Newbie.

I disagree that 273 is townish, although it does help the atmosphere. The entire fiasco seems like something scum would jump on to 'keep the peace' and get townpoints.

copper looks townish, but the texcat read switch is just bad tbh.

[Mathdino]

Anenanenanenanenanenanenanenonymous's drunkposting looks town, lol.

I pretty much like everything said in the above post. Small part of me is questioning whether it was actually designed to make me like it since 80% of it is stuff I've agreed with (C+A town, NRG's argument is bad, etc), but otherwise, looks good.

@IK: Does the knowledge that your slot is (presumably) town help you gather any reads when it comes to people interacting with it?
You said you're townreading me for not voting Constantine. What do you make of RDR? Where'd the townread on him come from?
Whatcha think of BMWS?

[Mathdino]

Rudolph 213 discussing theory, being the helpful townie, lean scum. His Constantine interaction is scummy.

I beg your pardon? Please explain this more because I'm thinking you may have worded this wrong. Also 213 wasn't Rudy.

[quote="In post 323Annen - votes for lurker. Not a good day 1 vote. Lurkers get replaced, scum ensures they stay above the lurker tag as people like to lynch them. Day 3/4 once the low posters have some content I can see going after them but day 1 is at least bad town. Lean scum.[/quote]
So hang on. You're saying going after a lurker makes him bad town, and then go and scumread him? I'm beginning to question whether you just scumslipped twice.
Also, you don't think the rest of his posts lean town? They're more than enough to outweigh a lurker vote.

You've got a lot of nulls, brother. Your C+A read shows you're a gutreader sometimes. Your gut tells you nothing about the 5 players you said nothing about?
Also where'd the copper townread come from if you didn't note the posts on your way through?

[Mathdino]

Rudolph 213 discussing theory, being the helpful townie, lean scum. His Constantine interaction is scummy.

I beg your pardon? Please explain this more because I'm thinking you may have worded this wrong. Also 213 wasn't Rudy.

Annen - votes for lurker. Not a good day 1 vote. Lurkers get replaced, scum ensures they stay above the lurker tag as people like to lynch them. Day 3/4 once the low posters have some content I can see going after them but day 1 is at least bad town. Lean scum.

So hang on. You're saying going after a lurker makes him bad town, and then go and scumread him? I'm beginning to question whether you just scumslipped twice.
Also, you don't think the rest of his posts lean town? They're more than enough to outweigh a lurker vote.

You've got a lot of nulls, brother. Your C+A read shows you're a gutreader sometimes. Your gut tells you nothing about the 5 players you said nothing about?
Also where'd the copper townread come from if you didn't note the posts on your way through?

FTFMe

[Mathdino]

Hi guys, did a quick skim through to get a feel for the game. Here are my current thoughts.

Nrg 189 bad meta read. I do not believe the difference in his posting between town
and scum is suspicious vs scummiest. 216 clarifies meta read to make it sound more reasonable after others started attacking.

C+A leaning town, mostly gut.

Rudolph 213 discussing theory, being the helpful townie, lean scum. His Constantine interaction is scummy.

Annen - votes for lurker. Not a good day 1 vote. Lurkers get replaced, scum ensures they stay above the lurker tag as people like to lynch them. Day 3/4 once the low posters have some content I can see going after them but day 1 is at least bad town. Lean scum.

Copper - leaning town didn't note the posts on my read through

Math Dino - null right now, his post frequency will lead to scum slips if he is scum

Gravity - null

Cultivation Theory - did not notice anything from him during read through. Checked ISO has only 2 posts. Please post more CT - null

Acyron 149 I like this reads list. Leaning town

BMWS - null, any firm reads from the whole missed hydra are ridiculous. It's not a town slip it's null.

Textcat - null

IK - I got strong town from Constintines slot in between the crap . Even as he was being replaced he kept scum hunting. This is my strongest town read.

VOTE: NotReallyGood

This... doesn't answer anything. You could look at

any

townish behaviour and say it looks like scum is trying to emulate that to appear town. Trust me, I have a couple pings from Rudy, but they've got nothing to do with "discussing theory" or being a "helpful nice townie".
This read looks like it was BS'd.

Also, you've yet to explain the Anenenaneninonanenanuninenanonymous scumread.

I hope you're answering the other questions as well?

[Mathdino]

Sorry, that quote was unintended.

I don't know where these phantom quotes keep coming from, I've probably had about a dozen accidental quotes so far...

[Mathdino]

...

Rudolph 213 discussing theory, being the helpful townie, lean scum. His Constantine interaction is scummy.

I beg your pardon?

Please explain this more

because I'm thinking you may have worded this wrong. Also 213 wasn't Rudy.

Annen - votes for lurker. Not a good day 1 vote. Lurkers get replaced, scum ensures they stay above the lurker tag as people like to lynch them. Day 3/4 once the low posters have some content I can see going after them but day 1 is at least bad town. Lean scum.

So hang on.

You're saying going after a lurker makes him bad town, and then go and scumread him?

I'm beginning to question whether you just scumslipped twice.
Also, you don't think the rest of his posts lean town? They're more than enough to outweigh a lurker vote.

You've got a lot of nulls, brother. Your C+A read shows you're a gutreader sometimes.

Your gut tells you nothing about the 5 players you said nothing about?

Also where'd the copper townread come from if you didn't note the posts on your way through?

1. I want more explanation of the Rudy read. Because being friendly is NOT a scumtell.
2. Explain what you said in the quoted section on your Anenenenenenen read.
3. "Your gut tells you nothing about the 5 players you said nothing about?" I find it a bit late in the game to have half the playerlist as null.
4. Copper townread, explain. Going by your general patterns, copper should be a nullread, especially if you didn't take note of his posts.

[Mathdino]

Yeah, I'm really not seeing what C+A and copper are. 3G's reads list was pretty scummy, and I still think the as of yet unaddressed "Day 3/4 once the low posters have some content I can see going after them but day 1 is at least bad town. Lean scum" is a scumslip.

Can anyone townreading 3G explain said townread? Cause I'm not seeing it.

@Anienyanonenanynonunquestionmarkoneninhallwaythingymous: Can you respond to the questions I asked you last page? Post 313.

And yeah, I forgot I was voting someone up for replacement. Should wait for that.
UNVOTE: NRG
VOTE: 3G

Edit: Towntell is probably saying his predecessor sucked. I'm guessing this is like the opposite of the Amished or something?

[Mathdino]

Yo mod, do scum have daytalk?

[Mathdino]

I don't care about that.

The point is that 3G calls Mr E.B.O.N.Y. 'bad town' and then says he has a scumread on him. This would indicate that he's voting him for being bad town in his eyes, not because he thinks he's scum.

[Mathdino]

And truth be told, it's less about buddying you than it is disagreeing with Math, GGG.

I haven't liked his gameplay since page 1 (or thereabouts), so I just instadoubt anything he has to say.

You're beginning to sound like Constantine.

@copper: Ehh, I guess. But the fact remains that he hasn't really HAD to make much stuff up since his reads don't have that much substance.
Regardless, we're not lynching anyone just yet, I'll see how he interacts with people today.

[Mathdino]

@acryon:
On 273, I'll be honest with you, I'm going to read things how I see them and you don't get to tell me how I should be reading posts because everything that's not a reaction test I 'should' be reading as null or town from you.

On Pastro's ban, yeah, C+A already pointed out how that argument sucks and points to you just as much as it does to them. Regardless, I don't see someone awaiting replacement after banning as an easy target for scum to latch on to, so I'm not seeing the argument there.

On 334 and C+A, while the post may not have been convincing to you, I don't see how that of all of 3G's reads is alignment indicative independent of C+A's flip, and I for one have other things to question than 334.
So basically you're scumreading C+A for accepting someone with a (in your opinion) poorly reasoned townread on them as town. But this is predicated on the idea that C+A

should

be thinking a certain thing or reading a certain way, which kind of harkens back to my first point in that we're all going to read things differently. Don't vote people for being wrong.

[Mathdino]

You talked about 273 in your last post, that's what I was referencing.

I apologise for missing the Pastro ban discussion, I admit that was probably the only part of the game I skipped over a bit because I didn't quite understand it and just wanted to wait for the replacement. Thanks for clearing that up.

And here's the crux of the issue again. "Objectively terrible". Not sure if I need to get Descartes to bash you over the head, but there is no 'objectively terrible'. Townhunting is a valid towntell and terrible math can sometimes be a towntell because scum don't like to make mistakes. And I'm saying this while scumreading the guy who made 334.
While that may not be the sole reason that you're voting for him, it is what made you vote him and that is how you presented it. If you'd like to expand on your other reasons, by all means make a mini-case. As it is it looks like you're scumreading him for agreeing with a post that you think is bad that isn't really as bad as you think.

[Mathdino]

I would argue that a vote with confidence is better than one without in nearly every case. A vote with apprehension applies less pressure, implies lesser accountability, and is less likely to promote discussion than one with confidence.

Whoa what?

So you just argued that your own action was objectively townish? The fact that you're applying this to yourself nullifies the entire argument.

FoS: acryon

[Mathdino]

What's bugging me is why would he, as scum, go gunning for one of the more universally townread and aggressive players with an as aforementioned terribly weak case?

[Mathdino]

Gonna have to agree with E.B.O.N.Y. and Ivory here, and here's the thing.

Your case is good and well structured. However, those things don't necessarily point to scum and if you actually read through C+A, it's a very townish ISO.
Which makes me think you're trying to twist C+A to put one of the more aggressive players in your lynchpool.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Aneninen
for asking to be in a townbloc.

VOTE: Constantine

Because forming townbloc..

[Mathdino]

This is why I think hydras are stupid. Wake has played a lot more than that, so I think my claim is still reasonable. The whole point of a hydra is to treat it like one slot, yes? So unless you sign up as separate people, I am not going to analyze you separately.

Yeah this tunneling is out of hand at this point. I think the weaknesses in your suspicions are showing through, acryon.

UNVOTE: 3G
VOTE: acryon

You're criticising everything House has done, I don't think anyone's criticised Wake's play (he signs his posts FYI). And everything you're criticising is fairly typical of House from what I read of him.

[Mathdino]

He's V/LA on weekends and I know for certain that he won't be back until Monday. Do what you will with this.

[Mathdino]

Rudy speaks my mind. Imploding, or as I see it, flailing/stretching, is indicative of scum, not town. The more he pushes C+A the more he reveals how weak his original case is.

On the other hand, I believe texcat's waiting for the last batch of replacements.

[Mathdino]

acryon is not newb nor is he bad, and he can certainly handle pressure. He's also not a tunneler to the point where he fits the evidence to the reads. Can't say more for usual reasons.

On texcat, meh, fair enough. I don't think it's alignment indicative (as with most lurking) but she does need to start contributing.

Edit: FFS Rudy stop saying exactly what I'm going to say.

[Mathdino]

I don't delete posts. Posting helps me stay on top of things and if I delete things I'm liable to forget that I didn't say something.

Also I'd like to think that my input drives the point further since I know and have meta'd acryon.

[Mathdino]

Wait shit are you doing this with everyone?

How's that not information overload?

[Mathdino]

Did Liam Neeson play you in the Lego Movie?

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:

Doing something, will reevaluate today. Should also look at some wagon analysis.

[Mathdino]

Guys, okay, no analysis, but some setup stuff.

Can't we just play Follow The Cop now? Hear me out.

1. Cop claims.
2. Tell acryon to protect cop. If cop dies anyway, acryon is scum.
3. acryon dies.
4. Remaining doctor just protects cop every night.
5. ???
6. PROFIT

[Mathdino]

The only issue is that it assumes that you're telling the truth with your claim. Did you breadcrumb at all?

Edit: Oh damn never mind. SORRY FORGOT SETUP

[Mathdino]

Macho doctor is the role.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Rudy
No, but you're scum for trying to lynch a claimed PR (which would make the cop macho if he's telling the truth).

[Mathdino]

What do you expect to come of voting him? He's gonna claim even harder? All more votes on him will accomplish is a lynch, which we are NOT doing today.

[Mathdino]

So you want to lynch him on the chance that he's scum fakeclaiming Doc?

We leave him alive for now and wait until we get to a point where we can confirm his alignment. Or he gets NK'd.

[Mathdino]

Why are we still talking about this? By talking about this I mean why is Rudy still attacking and why is acryon still defending.
acryon's case was bad. That's great. We're not lynching him for it given the claim. Let's move on. If acryon actually manages to stay alive we can talk about him later.

Should vote Rudy more, this is ridiculously anti-town.

[Mathdino]

Don't buy it at all.

You all should check out Open 574 (Stack The Deck). Texcat claimed cop. Everyone immediately jumped off the wagon. Turns out he was scum after all. Moral of the story is that a claim doesn't mean that the person's confirmed town.

I was IN IT. And if the game wasn't abandoned I guarantee you the scum would've been decimated since the vig had veritable proof she was scum.

Stop trying to generate paranoia. We are not lynching acryon today and that's final.

[Mathdino]

Rudy. Dude. If anyone claims or flips doc at any point in this game and someone CC's, acryon can die. It's pretty damn simple, unless you think LyLo is gonna be 2 docs and acryon deciding what to do.

acryon, what you call misrepping I call tunneling and miscommunicating.

[Mathdino]

101 isn't scummy IMO. It's bad but it's not scummy and it makes a certain amount of sense from a town perspective. If something pings at that stage in the game and you're an aggressive player, usually results in tunneling.

On Pastro, meh. Like I said, I skimmed that discussion because I didn't really understand what you were trying to say so I can see C+A misinterpreting.

Given that you're town, that last point is actually pretty good, but not because of misrep. Calling a case shitty is not misrep, it's just arguing; 'shitty' is pretty subjective. From your standpoint you never write shitty cases. It's the sarcasm and the fact that the mudslinging doesn't match the reads that gets to me.

That said, that's not enough to overpower my current townread on C+A and the rest of your case doesn't hold enough ground for me to switch. I like my Rudy vote.

[Mathdino]

Not only it is a pretty serious accusation to be written off, but doesn't it seem like quite a claim for town to make on someone that early in the game?

It seems like exactly the claim a slightly annoying super aggressive player would make that early in the game.

[Mathdino]

House, please refer to Wake's wallpost when I say, please shut up.

Just stop this argument and move on, it's probably TvT.

[Mathdino]

Pointless posting: Ad hominem follows the argument of "You are [x], therefore your argument is invalid." He's not calling your argument invalid based on the assumption that you're a 'whiny bitch', he's saying you're that based on saying your argument is invalid.
Calling a case shitty is not ad hominem nor is it an attack to the character. It's just calling a case shitty.

That said, House really does need to cut the crap with his personal attacks.

[Mathdino]

No, it just makes him look like a jackass.

Attacking you and not your argument is not ad hominem, it's just being a jackass. Unless he's explicitly said that your case is bad BECAUSE you're an idiot, it's not ad hominem. What he's saying is you're an idiot because your case is bad, which is A. very different, B. pointless, and C. jackassery.

Don't vote people for playstyle.

[Mathdino]

I take it you've never played with such uber emotional/aggressive players as the likes of kuribo, LLD, or GreyICE?

Again, playstyle can be annoying but don't use it as a reason to vote. Him bashing you like that is null and he's equally likely to do that as town.

[Mathdino]

There are 2 other scum and I'm not feeling a C+A lynch today. Who else is scum?

You're the closest we've got to a confirmed town, you noping the hell out of this thread because people don't believe your one (1) scumread is not helpful.

[Mathdino]

There's probably scum in {Rudy, 3G}. Thoughts?

Or do you really have a grand total of one (1) developed read?

Complaining about the rest of the town doesn't do anything. Instigate discussion and scumhunting by doing it yourself, interrogating, prompting people, and they'll follow you. This activity level is not any one person's fault but any one person can help it. And I do take some responsibility for the slight apathy I've had this game compared to my others.

[Mathdino]

There's probably scum in {Rudy, 3G}. Thoughts?

Why is there probably scum between us, I find people presenting either or cases scummy. You are setting up a double mislynch.

I never said 'either/or'. I have scumreads on both of you and would be willing to lynch either at this stage. That question was literally asking acryon what he thought of my top scumreads.
You could both be scum. I don't know. Haven't looked at your interaction enough. Doubt neither of you are, but hey, I've been wrong before.

[Mathdino]

There are currently 5 active players, 1 of which is on V/LA.

We need those replacements.

[Mathdino]

Sweet, hey TTH.

BACK IN BIDNIZ

[Mathdino]

Can you explain what you liked most about Cultivation's posts up to that point?

Nothing in particular, just a basic guttownread. Generally when I throw out reads like that it's gut; I give reasons when I have em.

[Mathdino]

@MathDino: Do you often get gut town reads on people based on two low-content posts?

Since this game I've started emulating mastin's playstyle a bit more. Unfortunately since all my games that started after that one are ongoing, can't really show you anything, but suffice it to say, yeah I do.

[Mathdino]

I'm about a third of the way through the reread (page 9) and I have to come back to this later since my attention span is nearing an end.

I'm working from townreads on MathDino (though I can already tell we're going to be having the same problems as last game), Gravity, acryon, copper, and Rudolph.

The issue I have with this is you're basically townreading everyone with a similar-ish playstyle. All of these players seem like the more logical analysis types, so I feel you're reading them for having a playstyle you appreciate.

If not, can you explain the reads a bit more?

[Mathdino]

Can't support your group of townreads but the above post is really good. Definitely want to see Wake's response.

[Mathdino]

the logic presented by Constantine on page 10 is

, as always,

extremely strained and it looks like a collage of a few clashing theories

FTFY

I actually think Anen's flow is just fine, maybe this is another playstyle thing. I find Anen's logic very easy to follow and fairly reasonable, very not-faked.

[Mathdino]

TTH, I wouldn't put too much faith in trying to read Constantine. He admitted that the Constantine account was half for the purpose of trolling me in games (is why he got banned from joining new games for a while). If you want to read his slot, look at his replacement.

[Mathdino]

Essentially, I can't agree with acryon in that House's often inaccurate aggressiveness is scummy; in fact, I wouldn't expect scum to deliberately misrep me as the idea that I'd respond with tunneling them to hell isn't that far-fetched. I find it far more likely that House was misunderstanding a bunch of points, and we clearly have a disconnect when it comes to our thought processes, but imposing himself on others so much would be suicide if scum.

That said, while House's play has been pretty townish, I didn't see Wake's posts in that light before, so I may reconsider depending on what happens.

[Mathdino]

No, I know, I find it easier to talk about my townread by saying why the scumread is fallacious.

I wouldn't say it's simply for playstyle. Aggressiveness and domineering is certainly present in scum. However, the way he's doing it leaves him very open to backlash, especially the way he was tunneling me for fairly minute details.

Granted, I wouldn't put it past myself for this read to be biased. I have an odd tendency of townreading the majority of people who scumread me with reasons. Usually I'm right when I do.

[Mathdino]

I could say the same thing about the fact that his misrepping of me served little purpose considering pretty much no one agreed with him in the first place.

I just don't see the scum motivation in a lot of his posts.

[Mathdino]

I could say the same thing about the fact that his misrepping of me served little purpose considering pretty much no one agreed with him in the first place.

Well not exactly, because subtle misrepresentation is a proven way for scum to drive mis-lynches.

And overaggressiveness is a proven way to get yourself lynched.

[Mathdino]

Aggressive defence of who? C+A?

Definitely see why you may have issues with me this game. I need a perceived townsperson to talk to if there's no one already confirmed. Wisdom was it in 575 (yes I know I was wrong) and C+A is it this game. I will say that I'm much more confident in this read than the Wisdom one.

[Mathdino]

AtE much?

I don't think you're stupid. I already said that your read on Wake was excellent. I just don't think the read on House holds much ground.

I want to hear Wake before we move forward with this read. Unfortunately you haven't really said anything on House I haven't seen before this game. Doesn't mean it's stupid or pointless, I just don't agree with it.

[Mathdino]

It's exactly the same thing, haha. The only difference is they share a vote and know each other to be the same alignment.

[Mathdino]

Cool. That's your pet peeve.

That doesn't mean that everyone is triggering it, though. If people disagreeing with you is a pet peeve of yours, that's not really on me. But I always do my best to separate the argument from the person.

@acryon: If he just leaves, then I'll look over his posts with a fresh look and wipe my read on C+A, okay? You guys can walk me through exactly what makes what he's done inconsistent with town.

[Mathdino]

I'm currently fighting off a cold, so my reread has not been as productive as I'd like.

Mathdino, can you expand on and explain your townread on Cane + Able? Explain it to me like I'm five, please.

I don't know what else to explain to you. I feel like I've restated it and reworded it about a dozen times now, sorry. Anything else or more specific you want to know?

[Mathdino]

I have read and reread your ISO and done some contextual reading of your posts. I don't see how you went from arguing with C + A to "not feeling a lynch on C +A" to "I'm more confident on this townread than I was on Wisdom in another game." I'm asking you to walk me through your thought process to show the evolution of your read on that slot.

Mmm, that makes more sense, okay.

According to ISO, the "not feeling a lynch on C+A" was on page 12 or something, which was well after I developed my fairly strong townread. I was townreading him during the entirety of my argument with him since I felt that his attacking me for whatever he was attacking me for wouldn't really be useful as scum, since it was petty and unlikely to draw votes since he was making an ass out of himself doing so. I make the distinction between attacking logic, attacking alignment, and attacking the person, and in that case I was attacking his shitty logic mostly. And his shitty math. That bugs me.

Looking in context, the "not feeling a lynch on C+A" was in response to acryon when all he was talking about was C+A. I still think his case on him isn't too good, tbh, TTH's is way more interesting.

Have only skimmed this page, gimme a sec. To make good on my promise, I'll wipe my read on C+A and see what I come up with after rereading him and his defence.

[Mathdino]

The post immediately following it, Post 485 is the origin point for my current scumread on MathDino.

Out of curiosity, who here read my 484 regarding Aneninen? I've been told by various people that that method of reading people is nicely organized and focused.

I liked it generally speaking, but I think it is best to just do it on people of interest (i.e. your biggest scum read that you think we need to lynch, or a big wagon that you disagree with). Doing it on everyone makes it a lot less impacting. Another problem that can arise is a lot of confirmation bias, which I have fallen into plenty, which is why I think it's best to drop them on us at helpful times instead of when you might otherwise.

@Bookitty: Basically what acryon said is what I'd have said if I wasn't on my phone at the time. I'm cool with in depth analyses of individual players, hell, I love em, but I got the impression (from the general lack of prior interest in Anen) that Wake was setting up to do that on EVERYONE which would clog up the thread and probably end up with a few useless null conclusions. If one does plan to do reads on everyone, would prefer if they were more consolidated just for ease of access.

[Mathdino]

Out of curiosity, who here read my 484 regarding Aneninen? I've been told by various people that that method of reading people is nicely organized and focused.

That's all well and good, but Anen is only one player out of 12. If the "one player at a time" thing is what you're going to do, I'd like it if you did texcat because it ties in with what I said about your early wall-post.

Or you could ask me your questions directly, instead of subtly prodding me to do a big analysis of texcat next. Since you have things you'd like to ask me about regarding texcat, please ask me straight-up instead.

This seems unprecedented. I'd like a big analysis of texcat as well, or maybe at least a response to TTH's accusations.

Nothing else interesting from Wake this page.

[Mathdino]

You forgot NRG I think.

Amished tell is meaningless IMO, agree on rest of IK read.

Can you post one sentence or one word conclusions for your reads? Just for purposes of consolidation.

Anyway, my wiki is not updated, here's everything I've finished since Guardians:
Open 575, shout out to acryon.
Open 574 (abandoned D2 but pretty long nonetheless), shout out to texcat.
Open 576 (abandoned D2), multiball.
I have no scum meta.

[Mathdino]

Man forget about the game and rest.

^Goodposting

[Mathdino]

acryon claimed doc and he was the major wagon. Then everyone went inactive so we're just starting to pick up the game now.

[Mathdino]

Weak case, weak reasoning, stretchy case, and unwarranted tunneling. Basically he was scumreading C+A for what (IMO) is playstyle.

I think the most interesting thing to come since replacements was TTH coming up with an actual legit case on C+A, might wanna check that out.

Hmm, other than that, we had GGG being a minor contender for a wagon due to early behaviour after replacing in, Rudolph being a minor contender for continuing to try to lynch acryon after he claimed, and I think I've got a few people weak scumreading me.

Edit: written as of #756

[Mathdino]

Misrep isn't a scumtell. It's a "I'm not properly reading the game" tell.

[Mathdino]

I don't have much time right now, haven't read the last page in depth and I will get to a reread of the game (and C+A's ISO) when I do have time.

Edit: I was the guy you got insanely pissed at for trying to break the setup in Hard Boiled

[Mathdino]

orcinus, are you chainsaw defending acryon because you think he's been townish this game, or because he has a townish playstyle?

[Mathdino]

HAHAHAHAHA. That was the precise moment I siteflaked.
Perfect town win regardless, bro.

Anyway as I understand it, chainsaw defending is defending someone by attacking their attackers rather than calling them town. I don't see it as a scumtell, but I do think it's a bit disingenuous when the townread isn't explained.

Basically, explain why C+A shouldn't have scumread acryon.

[Mathdino]

I mean your townread on acryon PRIOR to him claiming doc. He claimed doc after he got run up, and C+A was scumreading him before he got run up.

[Mathdino]

Cool, so why'd you think he was town, is all I'm asking.

[Mathdino]

Alright, I guess that's cool. This is pretty much me making sure your vote on C+A isn't scum chainsaw defending.

What then, do you make of the other players on his wagon? There were 6 I think.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: The acryon Wagon After Rudy's Vote

This is why I think hydras are stupid. Wake has played a lot more than that, so I think my claim is still reasonable. The whole point of a hydra is to treat it like one slot, yes? So unless you sign up as separate people, I am not going to analyze you separately.

Yeah this tunneling is out of hand at this point. I think the weaknesses in your suspicions are showing through, acryon.

UNVOTE: 3G
VOTE: acryon

You're criticising everything House has done, I don't think anyone's criticised Wake's play (he signs his posts FYI). And everything you're criticising is fairly typical of House from what I read of him.

Oh nice... throw out a shitty case on me and leave it to stew over the weekend.

I'll return the courtesy, except my case actually has merit.

acryon's selective ignoring of pertinent details in order to sell my mislynch is at best terrible town, and at worst scummy as hell.

He does not care about the truth of the situation, all he cares about is seeing me dead, as evidenced by these latest posts between us, where he criticizes me due to my "experience", then doubles down on his read when I and other players correct his faulty assumption.

Town in that instance would have reevaluated their read, not insisted upon it being correct despite the fact the foundation of their read was completely undermined.

I've tried giving him the benefit of the doubt, but feel like he is using that latitude as an opportunity to assault my play and sell a completely unfounded case against me based on nothing but "gut".

VOTE: acryon

- House

This. Texcat's ISO reeks of active lurking. Not one substantial scumread has been placed throughout the entire day (pot, kettle, I know). Literally the only read texcat has expressed AT ALL is that C+A is town (in 181 and 396) but even that is "but..."ed.

Hmmmm... I must have skimmed that over.

(post has been edited by me)

like someone desperate to find something to call scummy

.

Town have no reason to do the bolded.

Hmmmmmmmm...!

He's not defending his incredibly weak case, but rather

awknowledging

the case is weak.

That's right again...

And he's not a newbie indeed. (I've also checked it.)

UNVOTE: – because I don't think it's happening today.
VOTE: Acryon
Baaaa, baaaaaa! ^_^

@Acryon
I've checked your finished games, your play is very different in this one, in Minimenace you actually did not vote day 1 for instance and in the other two you flip-flopped a lot.

I've seen no evidence of you tunneling on other players and I think your case on C+A is pretty bad, so you are possibly scum here for building your case as you go, without caring much about evidence brought against it.

VOTE: Acryon

This is

L-2

, since we have had few vote counts, I thought I should add it.

We are two days from deadline. I will move to Acry, we need to get him to l-1 with intent before the end of tomorrow to deal with any role claims.

If anyone comes up with another viable wagon I am willing to go. I got nothing more then my suspicion of Anen which no one seems interested in.



VOTE: acrynon

[Mathdino]

Doc in this game is a role that can't be CC'd. What you did just gave me an inkling of worrying that you/acryon were scum together. That said, currently townreading your behaviour this page, so it's good.

I'm scumreading Rudy and GGG. Rudy for continuing to try to lynch acryon after he claimed (and being the primary pusher of his wagon), and GGG for reasons that I'm gonna have to write a mini case on later because that'll take at least 10-15 mins.

[Mathdino]

Misrep isn't a scumtell. It's a "I'm not properly reading the game" tell.

Who even does NK speculation anymore? As Orc says, it's a very safe fakeclaim for scum to make.

All these new rules! What exactly is a scum tell these days? Whatever happened to the easy rules of lynch all lurkers, lynch all liars, and third person on the bandwagon is scum? And I always do NK speculation, though I will admit that it seldom leads anywhere.

I'm giving acryon's read of Rudolph credence because macho doc is a stupid fake claim coming from scum imho.

There is no way he's living until lylo with that out there, and I don't see scum cutting their own life span like that.

Am I mis-reading this? Just because Acryon is alleged town doesn't make his reads any better than yours or mine, it only makes them sincere.

house do you have a finished scumgame?

Please tell me that you are not going to read some old game to do meta on House before you even bother to read this game!
Do you have any actual interest in scum hunting this game?

Yeesh this is bad.

Nothing is a scumtell, ignore the majority of the wiki. The entirety of MS has to some extent read the wiki, no one commits any standard tells only as scum anymore and nowadays the difference between town and scum doesn't boil down to a few buzzwords. Look at things in context, look at motivation, compare town motivation to scum motivation, look at acting, at fakeness, any of that, but always look at things in context. In context, I find it unlikely C+A was actively attempting to misrep me, for example, as the purpose of misrep is usually to A. convince people to vote with you, and B. to overpower the other person. In this case, I don't think it serves much purpose doing that deliberately.

You appear to misread that point, yes, but I'll let C+A explain it if he hasn't already.

Hmm. texcat, have there been any town games you've finished between now and Stack The Deck? Because I'm beginning to question whether indignance is a thing you often more as scum.

[Mathdino]

orcinus and Wake need to shut up about whatever argument they have just as I needed to shut up about Constantine. I, for one, found orcinus's """outside information""" to be nowhere near as relevant as a simple meta of House; that said, I don't think it's outside info and worthy of bickering over. Basically not terrible to use it, but it's not really that useful in the first place.

orcinus, I'll give you that minicase on 3G after I take care of other games. Responding to posts first, cases later.

[Mathdino]

Got no time, I crashed last night, really sorry again, real life takes precedence. Have read everything except the wall on 3G above. Suffice it to say:

C+A vs orcinus is TvT, I don't want to lynch either, I'd take a wild guess that wagons on them are semi-scum motivated simply due to their pushiness. That said, I still have not reread C+A's ISO and the entire game, so if one of them were scum, I'd say it'd be C+A.

texcat is really screwing with me, I want her to respond to me. I've played with scum-her before actually. I think she's scum.

I don't have a strong read on Bookitty, I often have issues reading experienced players not because of a different playstyle but because I know they're experienced and know how to fake stuff.

Ugh, need to do a reads list. My play is generally way better the more time I have; I think it may be notable that the less time I have to put into a game, the more I end up being scumread. 575 and 574 I was pretty much a universal townread, nowadays, not so much, because the strong aspect of my town game is my cases and longer pieces of analysis.
Basically, I'd appreciate if you took into account that this game is basically my town game without shit that takes too long to write.

[Mathdino]

So it's like your towngame but minus the analysis. Is that a euphemism for 'That's my scumgame'?

Nope, this happens sitewide. While I don't suck at live interaction with players, it doesn't show my thought process nearly as well as reads lists and cases, and the more I completely bare my thought process, the more I get townread.

If you find any patterns that don't have to do with less time, orcinus, feel free. This is just a basic PSA to anyone metareading me.

[Mathdino]

texcat, I'm referring to post 932.

[Mathdino]

Yep, never mind, I skimmed that.

[Mathdino]

When's the deadline?

I'm comfortable with the level of pressure texcat is currently at. Want to see what happens. And also reread the game.

[Mathdino]

You're scum, that's why. Any amount of votes barring the amount required to lynch is an 'acceptable' level is pressure

Nah. I just reread the thread to see where she was (cuz we don't have a votecount -_-) and I'd have voted her if she wasn't at L-2. I like her at L-2. I can read her better when she's under pressure.

[Mathdino]

I'm not gonna do stuff just because you'll scumread me otherwise. Convince me to put her at L-1, strongarming does nothing for me.

As it is, I'm far more comfortable reading texcat while she's pressured than I am trying to analyse her ISO. So let's see what happens.

[Mathdino]

Are you GreyICE?

[Mathdino]

He's literally the only other player who's used that phrase in the history of MS, lol.

But seriously, if you think putting her at L-1 is gonna help any, again, convince me.

[Mathdino]

L-1 is classified as claiming/quickhammering territory. The majority of my games since my return have had some form of premature hammer. One game had 2 of them.

Not again, thanks. If she's a PR, L-1 is as good as death for her.

[Mathdino]

L-1 is classified as claiming/quickhammering territory. The majority of my games since my return have had some form of premature hammer. One game had 2 of them.

Not again, thanks. If she's a PR, L-1 is as good as death for her.

No it in't. No-one's going to quickhammer. L-1 is only quickhammer territory if you're playing with a bunch of VIs. Sorry that you've had bad luck with this, but I can assure you this isn't how most games go.

Malakittens quickhammered. Granted, it was scum, but I don't think that completely excuses it. Reckoner and Untrod Tripod L-1'd and hammered town in a timespan of minutes after I put him at L-2 (they were both town). Otherwise I've had 2 or 3 VIs hammer and 1 experienced self hammer.

So screw putting texcat at L-1.

Also, I'm not particularly interested in finding your main; that phrase just rang alarm bells for me

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: 1 experienced self hammer and 1 year old account self hammer.

The majority of lynches in my games this year have been premature hammers. And that's not even talking about ongoing games.

I like day phase, I have no interest in speeding up the claiming/lynching process.

[Mathdino]

copper makes good points this page. Continuing to null-town read him (the null coming from the WIFOM that copper himself presents). TTH vs copper is probably also TvT.

Where's texcat?

[Mathdino]

Yeah if she doesn't show up this is kinda pointless I guess. I roleblocked her in Stack The Deck out of gut since she active lurked ALL OF D1, and then she pulled off an elaborate claim scenario that made me believe she was town. She was scum.

If she doesn't show up today with some good material, I'll vote her.

Hey acryon

, anything more to say before night phase? Would actually like everyone to check in just in case of NKs.

[Mathdino]

Nah, nothing in particular, it's a pretty solid reads list, can agree with the majority of it.

Good luck with RL, acryon.

[Mathdino]

I can't really cite any examples when the definition of lurking and active lurking is the LACK of meaningful content produced. Lurking is not posting, active lurking is posting to avoid getting prodded or being seen as a lurker but not really contributing to the game.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: texcat

yeah nope.

[Mathdino]

Nope? That's all you got?

One word for every person while saying any reads are an exercise in futility? That's all you got?
4 townreads outside claimed doc? That's all you got? Like I honestly thought that you being at L-2 would make you do something that'd show your alignment but a naked reads list does nothing except hide your thought process. Which makes me think you're

continuing

to active lurk and there's a slight chance you're afraid of me reading your fakeness if you produce content.

[Mathdino]

Did you just random hammer...

did you actually just do that...

[Mathdino]

this is the shit i'm talking about omg

[Mathdino]

Playerlist

notreallygood

My Milked Eek

Newbie

GGG

Gravity

orcinus_theoriginal

GuyInFreezer

CultivationTheory

TellTaleHeart
copper223
Cane + Able
acryon
Aneninen
Mathdino

blindmewithscience

bookitty

Pastro

Rudolph the Reindeer
texcat

St Constantine the Hermit

Idiotking

I'm not sure whether to be impressed or saddened at the fact that you RANDOM HIT THE PLAYER AT L-1.

I'd be tunneling you so hard regardless of texcat's flip if that wasn't provably random but nice going.

[Mathdino]

He roled a d12 die and got 11. Which is texcat's number. I don't even

[Mathdino]

oh wow
phew

[Mathdino]

GIF wagon is very fishy, I really don't like Anen's last post. Also texcat's vote on GIF would be enough for me to vote her if I wasn't already. His random vote should, if anything, make him look MORE town, orcinus was EXTREMELY townish, and GIF hasn't actually been playing at all scummy.

Those votes definitely need to be explained.

[Mathdino]

So, GiF arrived. His catchup is... well, I've seen this somewhere (I don't remember right now) but it may be a kind of scum-fake-catchup. And that (most probably) faked-random vote?!

You are literally incapable of faking the dice tags on here.

[Mathdino]

Well then.

Besides that, got a case on GIF/orcinus? They're like my strongest townread now.

[Mathdino]

GIF is town simply because orcinus is town. orcinus is town from the argument he had with C+A (which just screams TvT imo), for asking good questions and providing legit input, and for having what seems to be a natural thought process.

Town at this point is {GIF, C+A, TTH, copper, Idiotking, acryon}. Leaving {3G, Rudy, texcat} as scum with lesser chance of {Aneninen, Bookitty, MME}.

[Mathdino]

Holy shit, you're at L-1.

Someone needs to unvote GIF, this wagon is terribad.

[Mathdino]

Honestly I kinda figured you were still reading the game at the time. The last update we had on your progress was page 6.

[Mathdino]

Am I at L-1? I'll claim upon intent

This is actually pretty scummy. Nowhere near a lynch, already getting defencive.

[Mathdino]

Prod dodge. The apathy is real. 53 pages and I'm having issues keeping up with the activity, I'll catch up later today.

[Mathdino]

holy shit what

Can we have a deadline extension?

[Mathdino]

I dont think Rudy and texcat are scum together; really hope one of them flips scum.

[Mathdino]

Not surprised it wasn't acryon, he's probably being kept alive for the same reason he kept borkjerfkin alive last game. C+A pretty much preempted the WIFOM move (while this was a bad move, I think it gives him townpoints since if he was scum he'd be more conscious of that being a bad move).

TTH should explain her vote, thanks copper for the TTH explanation.

Also
VOTE: texcat

Edit: Will look through copper's ISO, see if it checks out.
You understand of course that the idea that bad reads getting supported and not good ones is hugely WIFOMy. Everything else is interesting.

[Mathdino]

You stated a townread on Aneninen last I remember, is what changed simply his criticising your argument with copper?

I don't want to start an argument here because I do respect your ability, but I'm really beginning to think you're personalising your reads and developing backlash against people who've (from your perception) dismissed them.

[Mathdino]

Alright let's see if this checks out. I grabbed the majority of copper's posts that respond to reads on him.

Spoiler:

@Dino

copper seems pretty good at face value, 137 is cool. 138, a townread on texcat for agreeing, is kinda weird to me. So I'm gonna go with a null but not due to lack of info.

The town tell on him is not for agreeing, it's for thinking along the same lines so probably from a town prospective.

@Acryon

copper223 - I don't like the vote on BMWS, and jumping on that seems a little opportunistic, so this is my first real scum-vibe. The reads-list all seemed pretty legitimate otherwise.

How is that vote opportunistic when most of the later comments I have seen follow the: it was a tonwslip line? The main reason for voting was the vote/unvote posts he made when seeing 1 gram of pressure, I find opportunistic that you don't mention that in your read of BMWS:

blindmewithscience - Town for now because of the town-slip and subsequent questioning about why it was a townslip.

toghether with stating you basically got a scumvibe from one comment but like the rest of the page from me it makes me wonder if you have a vested interest in BMWS getting town red.

Switching to null and depending on how the replacement to Pastro comes into the game could change again to leaning scum

.

Read on me doesn't change as a result of my read. Read on acryon switches to null or lean scum. Checks out.

on GGG

His readlist and the motivations behind his townreads looks town to me as well, but he is scumreading almost everyone that had a negative opinion on his slot

and townreading me without saying anything about why he does, I don't like that because it points to him either having an agenda instead of giving reads,

or a link I missed between Rudi and Aneninen that does not include myself, because the explaination that he thinks everyone who is going after lurkers is mafia doesn't hold as I also stated that pressuring newbie was a good idea.

Checks out though this seems more natural than the above. It makes more sense than the response to acryon.

Milk / Orcinus / someone I have as null like GGG/Tex

when you are asked for your scumreads

and you have to put down someone you actually have as null

it's ok this game is hard i feel ya buddy

Lol I'm sure you always have 3 scumreads D1.

@All
Can we lynch this guy? I was about to post the same as C+A about wanting out if he continued but I like a lot of players here so I'd rather get rid of the problem, or maybe he is playing like this to be disruptive as mafia, one can only hope and that would at least make sense somewhat.

VOTE: Orcinus

Hey copper, did you feel as if orcinus was scumreading you in that post? Because I think I may be misinterpreting this exchange.

Otherwise doesn't really check out as well as the above 2 since the scumread appears to be more about the argument with C+A.

@Boo
I disagree with you on Tex because based on meta I also think she is more of a passive player by nature rather than being wishy washy on purpose, and now that she is coming out she looks more town than mafia to me.

I do however see the point you are making and I think it comes from town Boo, of those on the tex wagon you are the only one that provided a decent case, so that alone helps my read of you as town.

@House
I disagree with your interpretation of Boo's case, I'm fine with you scumhunting and pressuring people but I second Boo's request that you actually read the thread in context when you do so. leaning town.

@TTH
I like your case on Rudi for being so sure of people's alignments that it seems like he knows them, but it's hard to say if this is overconfidence or his natural playstyle rather than scum indicative, do you have meta to support your accusations?

I think TTH is town based on the people she is scumhunting and the cases she is making.

@Dino
What is so uber town about GIF you will have to explain better to me, because I don't see it. Otherwise your play seems town to me, especially the hammer reaction.

@GGG

I don't know how you manage to post as much as you do and still be null for me, I'm starting to think this is your strategy for today.

@IK
Did you read anything of my exchange with TTH? Because if you have I feel the misrep in the way you presented my read on Orcinus and you sheeping TTH is mafia indicative, I also dislike you calling anyone on the GIF wagon scummy and him an obv town but then going back to question him when he did the supposed randon dice vote. I forgot about you for a while because I liked your early posting and I think it may have been a mistake.

@GIF
Your posting other than the die play looks more town than mafia I'll admit, especially your disappointment about me and C+A "misrepping" sounded genuine, but

I do not like the number of "OMG this guy is town move on" reads you are getting

, maybe my read is just off here or maybe other players have a vested interest in keeping you alive.

This is interesting. The part I'm highlighting is the GIF part but I just noticed the 3G read is pretty terrible/sensationalistic. I think I skimmed this post since I don't remember it. Also the read on TTH is pretty close to circular reasoning.

@IK

Having reread your exchange with TTH, my opinion has not changed. None of the reasons you gave for orc's scumminess in 1084 are persuasive.

This is different from saying they are non-existent/based on policy moreover:
1. did not in fact lead only to pressure, but also gave him a bunch of town reads, so how is that against his wincon?
2. This is your interpretation and I disagree, in fact setup speculation at the wrong times is a strong scumslip. Why are you forcing your interpretation of how to scumhunt on me to show I made up my reasons? Isn't it more important to decide if I believe it to be a scumtell?
3. This is the Acryon syndrome of giving random WIFOM justification to ignore behavior. The interesting point here is: why is Orcinus allowed to be scummy arguing with C+A while I'm opportunistic for the way I reacted to his behavior?

This looks for all the world like you were willing to lynch him for being an asshole, while claiming that being one is not alignment indicative. You hedge with the word maybe, but it's clear that you at least at this point were not claiming it was scummy.

That is exactly the same thing I accuse him a few posts later of but less well developped. 1. creating confusion, 2.setup speculation. 3.not reading the thread and using info, note he did that

before

his argument with C+A so your justification is a lie, how in the world do you conclude that I want him lynched for being a dick? You can actually tell I already believe here what I've been saying about you guys being wrong to give him a free pass for being unfriendly as well because I say maybe it is and maybe it is not alignment indicative for him, it's like I add a regardless of his behavior qualifier and you actually pick that as my main reason.

Again, this sounds like you did not believe he was mafia being disruptive; that was just a theory you were advancing to make some sense of his hostility. But the main reason (according to this) that you were voting for him was to get him out of the game, NOT for the three points you advanced later.

My post just shows I'm pissed with the guy because he is ruining my game experience and I'm considering his behavior as scum indicative.

There is a clear read development from post to post on why I think Orc may be scum and only in the last one you presented you can you argue policy is a factor, maybe it did influence my decision making at the time but carrying it over to my later reads (and we are talking about a few hours, most likely the next time I logged in,

so your argument that they came too late is pretty thin) makes me think you are jumping on this because TTH opened a path for you.

@Rudi
Please claim.

Checks out, starts having issues with IK after IK made a push on him.

Are you into the business of fear lynching now TTH?

Anyway yesterday I wasn't totally sure if TTH was town because part of her push on me looked like unwarranted tunnelling, now I know why she behaved like that, it relates to a game we just finished toghether, so she is most likely town here.

After finishing up with the post-game of the other game I mentioned I will check Boo's ISO and come back with my updated reads.

And this of course, which obviously checks out.

The question is whether copper is a fan of constantly using his own alignment to get reads as town. A lot of his reads seem like conspiracy theories the more I look at them. Again, need to see if he usually does that.
@copper: Meta links please?
Also can you expand on 1246 with the reads on 3G, IK, and GIF?

@TTH: Oh okay, that makes sense actually. I don't actually remember her pushes on any of those players, lemme go back and see if her arguments were well founded.

[Mathdino]

@MOD

:

Acryon = claimed doctor. Not a lynch for today. Can reevaluate tomorrow if he lives; I do believe this claim currently though. I don't agree about Cane + Able, but otherwise I'm okay with this.

Aneninen. Not a clear read on this. I really like Post 230, primarily because it actually gives insight into the thought process. This is a lean-town for me.

This has changed because of hypocrisy -- Anen accuses this post of being too wishy-washy when her own reads list contains numerous nulls.

Cane + Able. This is a hydra of two people I don't know. That said, I think there's congruency between the two heads of this hydra. Usually that reads town to me. I think it's fair to ask for a summary (I would like one, but I'm doing my own because I can't read the game over again right now, my head is pounding, so these are based on ISOs and context where needed).

Ironically, an argument he had with another player since this post made me read him more definitely town.

copper223. I have a townread here. There's a caveat; I think copper might be smart enough to sound town all the time. I see nothing scummy; this makes me nervous. :p

I am firm on this townread now. I did a bit of meta checking and given natural differences in different games/playerlists, Copper still seems REALLY town.

CultivationTheory was completely useless (two posts, of which I hated one). TellTaleHeart is way better. I don't really agree on C + A yet (and I'm bad at reading hydras, so I could be wrong here) but I think it took guts to take on that slot. It doesn't seem like a scum move to me. I still need more here, but lean-town for this.

Newbie replaced out and GGG takes her place. Well, newbie was pretty much as her name indicates. I can't figure out Post 323 by GGG. He seems to be championing Constantine, now Idiotking. I like his defense of Acryon BUT that's coloured by Acryon's later claim.

Gravity is just gone since the middle of November. I don't want to lynch this slot, because I thought it was sort of town. Nonetheless, the number of replacements is worrisome and I would like to see this replacement soon if at all possible.

This is you. I thought Orci seemed town based on previous meta I'd done. I do not want to say more.

Constantine/Idiotking: Oh, Constantine. Really? Amished tell in first post by Idiotking. I dunno, I've felt similarly when I replaced bad town. I like his postings though, which actually makes me feel better about GGG.

Texcat: I'm going to go ahead and disagree with copper here. I don't see a lot of town motivation here. Calling people bullies and constantly deprecating her own tells is not inspiring tons of confidence. It looks to me like hedging bets and keeping options open.

I made a post recently about Texcat. Scumread still.

Pastro/Rudolph: I didn't like Pastro. Knowing that it was a troll account, yeah, I don't think it's alignment indicative. I'm on the fence about Rudolph, though. I can see the WK thing, but my real concern is his Post 263. I find it hard to believe at that point that Rudolph had to be told that Constantine might not be the best player. Then he votes him anyway, and THEN says in Post 316 "I wasn't familiar with his play and thus didn't know he acted like that in all his games." Rudolph voted him AFTER he said he would check his meta.

This was wrong. Rudolph moves up to lean-town for me. He's helpful, which is NOT A SCUMTELL. I hate when people do that.

Mathdino: Can you link me up to a town game of yours? Scum too, if you have it. I want to check something to see if it's playstyle or alignment-indicative.

One true null-read. I didn't really derive anything from the games except that he might be more aggressive as town. He's a bit conciliatory here, maybe a weak scumread but I have no confidence in this read and you shouldn't either.

Not Really Good: So much theory talk. Telling people how it is, how it was and how it will be. Then reads Gravity as scum, which is counter to all I saw in the thread. I don't see any other real reads on people. Lean-scum here.

MyMilkedEek is the replacement here. Nothing so far. Sticking with scumread.

Bolded parts are updates on this. These were my initial reads from when I replaced in.

Meh, I was expecting more from the ISO, this NKA is pretty weak. This was only 2/3 way through the ISO and after this post she barely mentioned me, Anen, and texcat (Anen and I were apparently more like nullreads I think). Furthermore she seemed to be strongly defending copper who you're now casing. At first glance I'd scumread you for this since it's perfectly reasonable you killed someone defending copper, but that doesn't really mesh with your behaviour and I feel like you'd realise that bringing up NKA would be a bad idea here.

Edit: Ninja'd by a long shot. Yeah honestly it looks like it has more to do with not being scumread. Her reads were pretty self-admittedly wishy-washy and everything after this post was spent either defending her scumread on texcat or making like 2 dozen posts on why copper's town cuz meta.

[Mathdino]

Well that was easy.
@TTH:

@WIS

This is exactly what I do as town.

Really? Then you must consider yourself a paragon of scum when playing town then, if people started to vote for me I would ask myself: does their argument have merit, if not as Flubber is implying here, why are they voting for me? I would then use this to try and decide if it's a town or a mafia push or a mix and base my reads on that, I see none of that from Flubber; moreover it would never cross my mind to unvote someone, I vote people I think are scum and pressure others put on me is irrelevant unless it makes them even scummier, then I would vote for them, what is the town motivation for unvoting there? Other than what Flubber said about causality =/ correlation I don't see it and his reason is unverifiable. I don't need to have played with someone to tell you trying to buy yourself off of a lynch by giving surefire town reads, one of which I know to be true, is scummy.

This is a townpost that basically describes copper's play here in a nutshell. Sorry but I think this is more playstyle than alignment based.

[Mathdino]

Meanwhile copper does the same damn thing as scum:

@FG

Sure

Town
Mollie: town, no reason to claim in the way she claimed as mafia.

Alchemist: leaning town because I think I understand and share the evolution of his reads during the game, with the exception of Lia. The reply he made to FG when discussing the no lynch made me wonder for a while because I think he is wrong, but being dogmatic is not scum indicative and I don't think he wasn't being genuine there.

Farside: Some players seem to have her as their pocket scum but aren't actually interacting with her while others, possibly the misguided townies are pushing on her, so I think she is probably town. She was the first I noticed to voice concerns about FG's strategy and now most of town, including people who seem to be scumreading her, tend to agree, so that's also inconsistent.

TTH: I was leaning town on her, but her interaction with farside, especially that post about not wanting to interact with her scumreads and the attempted save a few posts later when she stated her forum scumhunting was a work in progress, plus her read on Lia (I'd like to know why you read her as town btw, that would probably help me) make me wonder, if I'm wrong on someone she is the most likely candidate.

FG: I'm still thinking about you.

Lissa: null

Gaiden: null at best, potential scum if I end up on the FG_Town side of the equation, because the only thing I have noticed from his slot is a gut read on FG as scum when he came out with his no lynch strategy and got town read by a few people, also a few people are town reading him and I don't really understand why.

Lia: leaning scum for trying to push scum on me for something that wasn't scummy and cross voting, forming scum teams early on with me, Alchemist and FG (at the time I had both as town so that was even worse, now at least I'm debating FG) as the potential mafia and contrary to what Alchemist said pretty much lurking for the rest of the game other than to reply to my prods or question FG's strategy. How can you say Alchemist that she is trying to figure out the game when she apparently decided on the second page that copper FG and Alchemist were the possible scum, and didn't interact with anyone else since, to me that looks a lot more like a premeditated strategy. That's another reason FG why I found your reads weird, you went hard on farside for her reply to your strategy but ignored Lia who did pretty much the same thing, why?

@All
Remember she said she called it the scummiest thing in the game and this is what she came up with, I was debating not even replying because this doesn't need it as it looks bad on it's own, but that's not my style

My definition of standard mafia play in the sentence relies on mafia playing to their win-con, I don't claim to know what mafia will do, I claim to know what mafia is

more likely to do

in that instance and it's more likely that mafia will find a way to scumread farside rather than town reading her, the fact you did that by misrepping her as far as I can tell makes the play even more questionable.

My immediate reaction when I first read this was that Copper was saying mafia would do one thing having done the other himself. In my experience mafia are just as likely to go either way.

You are using WIFOM to justify a mafia read, seriously wtf.

The fact I am still here arguing should show you I am open to discussion and giving you every opportunity to show that you are town if that's the case, iif you chose to not use it and get lynched as town I will be content with thinking I tried my best and that your play earned you a lynch, after that I will go back and re-evalute my reads with the new information. I'd advise humility from your part before you demand it from others.

This look's like he's making his excuses in advance for lynching someone he knows is town.

This was a direct reply to FG calling me a stubborn mule and a scrub for following Mollie so no, that has nothing to do with it, once again WIFOM and pretty reaching at that.

She is either a tunneller getting scumreads by confbias, or as I told you from the start and since I always assume you guys are as good as me or better at the game she is mafia, forgive me Alchemist for bringing up once again a terrible argument but also the time it took to reply to what should be a huge scumread is suspicious, I think Lia might be scum with FG and stalling or trying to shift the wagon to me here:
- She scumred FG but didn't vote for him.
- From the post Alchemist made on Lissa, which looked good to me btw, Lia is in a position to try and switch the wagon on me and not look bad for it.
- The stuff she is bringing up about Mollie is an indirect deflection of the FG lynch.
- That post she made stalled any kind of scumhunting until she replied, that's also why I think TTH might be town.

This entire thing is completely null. I see no scum motivation in that aspect of copper's play this game other than the obvious one of playing to his town meta.

[Mathdino]

Let me know when you find the cop crumb... copper.
(I crack myself up.)

Why would acryon be a question mark based on the reads? She said she would re-evaluate the claim the next day, but by all indications she was townreading him. Acryon

is

a question mark based on the fact that he's still alive, but that's mitigated by Cain and Able's earlier subversion of optimal scum strategy.

C+A calling that pretty much solidifies both of them as town for me.

[Mathdino]

I need to do a reads list; at least a couple of my reads are wrong since by my estimation I have too many townreads as of Rudy's flip.

Geronimoooooooo

[Mathdino]

Still working on reads list.

I am able to glean about -5 kg of sense from the above post.

1. Rude? What? Pretty sure that was a name joke...
2. your wording
i cant read this
what
are you saying acryon is scum

[Mathdino]

i feel like i'm not sensitive enough to understand what just happened here
no offence >.>

[Mathdino]

TTH, any thoughts on the copper meta? After all, you were in one of those games.

[Mathdino]

TTH, any thoughts on the copper meta? After all, you were in one of those games.

In other news, these lovebirds are definitely not scum together, not that that was under any question.

[Mathdino]

acryon? da fuck?

can you please explain wtf 1381 is talking about?

[Mathdino]

Nice conspiracy theory. Few flaws there though.

1. I would be tunneling GIF if the vote was a hammer that was made to look like it was random. HOWEVER:
2. It was semi-provably random, and even if you don't agree with that (this is why I chose not to care about Anen and the dice tag debate)
3. It wasn't even the hammer. You'd think if GIF were trying to "random" hammer he'd check first.
4. It's not a town tell; orcinus is already town.

Honestly the hugest flaw is displayed by the fact that it wasn't even a hammer. And recklessness is something I find town do more than scum since it tends to get a lot of attention. In this case, that dice tag shit served absolutely ZERO scum motivation and in fact only got a few people to go after him as low hanging fruit out of some crazy idea that orcinus is scum for (apparently) being a jackass.
You're one of those few people.

[Mathdino]

Vote Count 1.15
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Rudolph the Reindeer (4)

- acryon, Idiotking, Cain + Able, TellTaleHeart

texcat (4)

- bookitty, GGG, Rudolph the Reindeer, Mathdino

GuyInFreezer (4)

- copper223, texcat, My Milked Eek, Aneninen

(expired on 2014-12-09 14:00:00) until deadline

Edited as of post 1235 to fix a mistake

Looking at the vote on texcat is interesting. Following my logic of one scum per wagon this means Math Dino or I are scum. The alternate that TTH was saying you could have no scum on a wagon especially if texcat were scum which may be possible. So the choice for me today (knowing that I am town) is between Math Dino and Texcat. The math Dino and texcat is also a possibility. I hate doing the either or is scum because it's easy for scum to set that up to lynch two townies. But in this case I don't see that is possible for 4 townies to vote for another townie without scum being involved.

And that's why one scum per wagon is pseudoscience. Which is a nice word for pile of bullshit. Read almost ANY game and it disproves your theory outside of statistics; I mean out of 5 people, sure, it's highly

statistically

likely that one of them is scum, but that likelihood goes down for every person that flips town.

This reminds me of the Monty Hall problem, which you all should read up on before you try statistical arguments like the above.

That said, 3G is probably scum anyway

[Mathdino]

Vote Count 1.15
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Rudolph the Reindeer (4)

- acryon, Idiotking, Cain + Able, TellTaleHeart

texcat (4)

- bookitty, GGG, Rudolph the Reindeer, Mathdino

GuyInFreezer (4)

- copper223, texcat, My Milked Eek, Aneninen

(expired on 2014-12-09 14:00:00) until deadline

Edited as of post 1235 to fix a mistake

Looking at the vote on texcat is interesting. Following my logic of one scum per wagon this means Math Dino or I are scum. The alternate that TTH was saying you could have no scum on a wagon especially if texcat were scum which may be possible. So the choice for me today (knowing that I am town) is between Math Dino and Texcat. The math Dino and texcat is also a possibility.

I hate doing the either or is scum because it's easy for scum to set that up to lynch two townies.

But in this case I don't see that is possible for 4 townies to vote for another townie without scum being involved.

@matt You always switch doors, has nothing to do with this 1 per wagon thing.

Texcat or you is scum, question is which one.

You're making me gag.

The reason there's likely 1 scum on every wagon is because

that's the most likely statistical outcome

given any 4 or 5 players. There've been some MD articles on how there's almost 0 correlation that can be made when it comes to number of scum on a wagon, or what alignment wagon scum will be on.

Consider this:
I flip 4 coins.
The most likely thing to happen is 2 heads, 2 tails, with a 3/8 chance of happening.
2 coins flip heads.
Does this mean the last 2 coins MUST flip tails?
NO.

Let's say every one of 13 townies gets a card from the diamond suit.
Randomly pick 4 townies. It's HIGHLY likely one of them will get a face card before we know anything.
2 of them have non-face cards.
Does this mean the remaining 2 MUST have face cards?
NO.
Their chances of having face cards are exactly the same as anyone else.

So unless you've got a better argument for why it has to be between me and texcat, you can put your abacus away and let me deal with stats here. 'number of scum on a wagon' wagon analysis is BULL. SHIT.

[Mathdino]

I'm going to renew my vote.
VOTE: GIF

My scum list is currently GIF, GGG, and Dino (more on that later).


I realize that NK analysis is mostly futile(I have literally thrown the dice as scum), but I still can't help but do it.

I think leaving Acryon alive is mostly null, but I never found him very scummish. Clearly the death of our cop makes Acryon less valuable, though. And I've looked through Bookitty for any cop crumbs, but didn't see any. I'm guessing scum decided to kill Bookitty for their own reasons and it was just an added bonus that she was the cop.

I think clearly I am the one with the best reasons for killing Bookitty.

I was her first scum read. But since I know that I am town, I'm left wondering if scum was trying to implicate me with this kill. It seems unlikely to me. I had enough pressure D1 that it would seem unnecessary.

Vote Count 1.15
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Rudolph the Reindeer (4)

- acryon, Idiotking, Cain + Able, TellTaleHeart

texcat (4)

- bookitty, GGG, Rudolph the Reindeer, Mathdino

GuyInFreezer (4)

- copper223, texcat, My Milked Eek, Aneninen

(expired on 2014-12-09 14:00:00) until deadline

Edited as of post 1235 to fix a mistake

Looking at the vote on texcat is interesting.

Following my logic of one scum per wagon this means Math Dino or I are scum.

The alternate that TTH was saying you could have no scum on a wagon especially if texcat were scum which may be possible. So the choice for me today (knowing that I am town) is between Math Dino and Texcat. The math Dino and texcat is also a possibility. I hate doing the either or is scum because it's easy for scum to set that up to lynch two townies. But in this case I don't see that is possible for 4 townies to vote for another townie without scum being involved.

Awkward moment when both my top scumreads are implicating themselves in their own analysis.

I'd be voting 3G but I should go play a game and make sure shitty math isn't just pissing me off. Will see if this is actually scummy later.

[Mathdino]

Let's say every one of 13 townies gets a card from the diamond suit.
Randomly pick 4 townies. It's HIGHLY likely one of them will get a face card before we know anything.
2 of them have non-face cards.
Does this mean

one of

the remaining 2 MUST have face cards?
NO.
Their chances of having face cards are exactly the same as anyone else.

FTFMe

[Mathdino]

I literally just skimmed the mod's ISO of the first game I played after hiatus.

Official Vote Count

Save The Dragons

(4): Untrod Tripod, xRECKONERx, Hostile Intent, Honey bee

ika

(2): Klazam, Save The Dragons

Honey bee

(1): Natirasha

Mathdino

(1): ika

Hostile Intent

(1): MTD

Untrod Tripod

(1): mathcam

Natirasha

(1): Wolfy

Not Voting

(2): Feirei, Mathdino

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2014-10-27 10:00:00)

>Math is essentially useless in mafia
>You're trying to use shitty math
>Role PMs are completely random
>Do you also think pi=3

[Mathdino]

Show a game where a wagon on a townie has 4 townies and no scum when there are two other competing wagons.

Yes, because there are soooo many cases of a 4v4v4 wagon war out there.

Pseudoscieeeennnnnce

[Mathdino]

You missing the fact that it isn't random. I'm not using math or probability to prove anything. Math is essentially useless in mafia because human behaviour is involved.

Take the texcat wagon. Show a game where a wagon on a townie has 4 townies and no scum when there are two other competing wagons. Because that is what you are arguing right now.

You see the word probable and think coin flips unfortunately human behaviour isn't governed by coin flips.

Do you have ANYTHING to back up the statement that there's 1 scum per wagon OUTSIDE OF BASIC STATS? Because I've got some that disprove that if the burden of proof wasn't on you. What is

inherent

about scum mentality or scum motivation that causes there to be 1 per wagon?

[Mathdino]

You pull a RVS wagon vote to prove me wrong. Really??

You think that has any similarity to the situation.

Again I am not using math I am using behaviour to analyse voting patterns.

Pedit:

Scum want to avoid wagoning together,

note I said probably, not there definitely is one.

Do you believe that on a four person wagon on which two people have flipped town that either the wagon target or one of the remaining two is scum.

Because I believe

100% of the time this is true.

So it's me you or texcat.

fuck
fuck
fuck
gonna just avoid your arguments for today if that's okay
kbai

[Mathdino]

Math Dino, in a lot of ways your flip out looks a lot like scum freaking out for being caught for what you see as the dumbest logic ever. I have to reread c+as terrible math stuff early on to see how your reaction comoares

You've managed to trip almost every single one of my pet peeves in one go with worse logic than C+A's. Hell, I think if IK or C+A end up being scum you have a damn good shot at being right about the wagon shit... but only because it was likely to happen anyway. Let's take a look:
1. Shitty math, pisses me off because I'm a nerd and my biggest problem with Interstellar is they fucking CAN'T GET MURPHY'S LAW RIGHT IT'S ONE OF THE MOST SIMPLE THINGS EVER WTF (otherwise a good movie)
2. Hypocrisy, "I don't want to make 'either/or's, but SCUM IS EITHER X OR Y GUYS", which I feel would be a damn good excuse for pushing that kind of logic anyway and not getting scumread for it.
3. Tunneling based on said shitty math without even having legitimate reasons for these reads
4. Not even scumhunting (no, fairy dust doesn't count as scumhunting, sorry) and clearly not paying attention enough to scumhunt outside of said shitty math
Oh also in that game STD got to L-2 with my vote and IIRC 4/5 of those votes weren't RVS, so fuck that.

Furthermore my frustration stems from the fact that logic says to keep pressuring texcat so I can get a read, but gut and emotions say to vote you since you're very clearly aware of how your argument sucks and why lining up lynches is bad but you do it anyway. This isn't even newb ignorance, this nears self-admitted bullshit. I find it difficult to believe you believe 1 scum per town wagon holds ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE TIME.

I will sheep C+A, he makes a compelling argument above.
VOTE: 3G

[Mathdino]

Yes I think there's 1 scum in you and texcat. You're using BS logic to back up a claim; I rail against BS because it makes you more likely to be scum.

I also find "sheeping Dino" to be a BS method of arriving at a conclusion. I don't care about agree/disagree as much as valid/invalid unless I'm talking to a conftown.

[Mathdino]

Washing-up.

Catching-up.

First of all, am I the only one who's surprised by the Nightkill? Have I missed something?

Am I the only one who finds it strange that the Gif wagon became empty before the Lynch?

TTH, why would you like to lynch me? (1369) I was only in the "no clear read" catchegory in BooKitty's list. By the way, as for your 1373, a Doc shouldn't play

too

pro-town or else they get Nightkilled because of that. Although that's only my opinion. 1377 – the fact that Acryon is still living is a WIFOM. I think.

TexCat's 1392 gave me scum wibes. It was like a "preemptive post", I mean, what if she's scum and builds a valid case against herself in advance, or how can I explain that? (1396 is town-ish, though. I hate not being able to get a solid read on TexCat.)

Disliked GGG's 1398 and 1402, 1408. I wonder whether bad logic is scummy or not. But, reading along his later posts and... it feels as if he's testing names and building up a viable wagon for mislynch!

Acryon, whom did you protect?

I'll put this in numbers for ya:
1. Looks like it.
2. Yep pretty much, explain why this is strange.
3. Agree on acryon.
4. what
>builds a valid case against herself in advance
5. I'm not really seeing what you're seeing with 3G? His choice of lynch targets has been vomit-inducingly rigid today.
6. Okay what? Why would you ask this? This is like half rolefishing that basically gives scum a roadmap of who to kill, I was under the impression acryon was aware of this.
This post is incredibly fencesitty and spec-heavy to the point where I have little clue of what your reads are. And the last question, that's straight up scummy.

FoS: Aneninen

PS: acryon why did you answer that

So Matt you spent a lot of posts and time on a meta analysis of copper and got nothing out of it. This type of meta read scum hunting is often scummy because reading meta you can find exactly what you are looking for.

I'm glad you're still (not) reading the thread. The point of that meta read was to see if copper does the same "constantly uses his own alignment to gather reads for himself rather than for others" thing in other games. The answer was conclusively "This is a nulltell". If you don't think my meta was accurate, go ahead and read up. The idea was to see how valid TTH's thoughts on copper were. Answer: While her analysis and summary of his behaviour is very accurate, claiming it's alignment indicative is not.
Thus, copper remains a slight townread.

So it's like your towngame but minus the analysis. Is that a euphemism for 'That's my scumgame'?

Nope, this happens sitewide. While I don't suck at live interaction with players, it doesn't show my thought process nearly as well as reads lists and cases, and the more I completely bare my thought process, the more I get townread.

If you find any patterns that don't have to do with less time, orcinus, feel free. This is just a basic PSA to anyone metareading me.

Bunch of self meta, again easily manipulated.

Right, okay, so you're saying I'm lurking sitewide to make way for lurking in this one game as scum for no reason?
Your buzzword doesn't work. What am I doing here as scum? Because I find the first statement to be absolutely true based on other players' behaviours in my games.

@MD. Your ISO provides no basis for your scum read on texcat. You have a point on active lurking which you can't define and one comment where you played with scum tex before and this feels like scum tex

What's your texcat case?

Related to low activity, I don't have the time to build cases whenever I feel like it anymore. I'll do that later.

Doc in this game is a role that can't be CC'd. What you did just gave me an inkling of worrying that you/acryon were scum together. That said, currently townreading your behaviour this page, so it's good.

I'm scumreading Rudy and GGG. Rudy for continuing to try to lynch acryon after he claimed (and being the primary pusher of his wagon), and GGG for reasons that I'm gonna have to write a mini case on later because that'll take at least 10-15 mins.

Scum reads Rudy for pushing Acry after claim. This was clearly null at not scummy.

The more I read Matt Dino's ISO the more combiased I get. Essentially, despite posting prolifically in the game he has very little real content in terms of reads. Essentially every read is a wifomy little thing. There are no cases being made by him. Twice he has argued with people over math which again is null to wifomy.

vote: math dino

1. Nice, outing your read as confbias.
2. Reads list in another tab.
3. Not true, you have nowhere near shown this.
4. wtf
how is that scummy
are you saying this is scummy because i made cases when i had full days free
5. Math is immune to WIFOM due to objective truth. Try again.

[Mathdino]

I define 'case' as 'full ISO'. Most of my reads are badly presented without actual cases. As promised, I'll get to work on that case now since I'm getting my momentum back in this game.

All I'm picking out is activity level, which I feel is an important warning when metareading me. Other than that, find what you will, I leave that up to you.

My case on texcat will contain more than 'active lurking'. There've been multiple things she's posted that gradually increase my scumread on her but due to loss of momentum I can't stay on top of things as well. These will be present in my case.
And based on my definition of cases, I've made 0 cases. I have no case on texcat. I have no case on you (where do you think I made a case on you?). I can go through your ISO if you like.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on wagon analysis and math, honestly, because that's not gonna get anywhere.

Edit: Definitely gonna have to go through Aneninen again as well. The more I think about it the more I think asking acryon who he targeted is insanely scummy.

[Mathdino]

The more I think about it the more I think asking acryon who he targeted is insanely scummy.

I got 99 problems.
But that question ain't one.

What's bothering you about asking for acryon's target?

Again, it gives scum a road map of who to kill and it has absolutely ZERO utility to town unless we're attempting to call into question acryon's claim. It's a form of half-rolefishing.

Note that this is also the problem with giving spectrums of reads lists instead of "this guy is town, this guy is scum, this guy leans town, this guy is town, etc". Scum knows to avoid the people at the top of the lists.

[Mathdino]

oh you have got to be kidding me

[Mathdino]

@TTH: The fact that you said that pretty much outs the town usage, so might as well talk about it.
The scum benefit to outing acryon's doc strategy far, FAR outweighs the town (the town being the doc can avoid saving who he thinks acryon will save). Doc's job is to protect PRs and prevent death. No more PRs to protect, so their job is to prevent death in the night. Now suppose we took this to an extreme length and said everyone knew who acryon protects.
Great.
Doc can pick someone else.
But now the person acryon protects isn't gonna be shot anyway.
The idea is that scum won't shoot who they think acryon is gonna save since there's a very very small chance both docs target the same person. The town motivation in being able to predict acryon is MINIMAL especially since scum have 3 times the brainpower the doc has.

[Mathdino]

You realise that the more WIFOM there is, the more likely targets will be random, the more likely scum ends up killing town, correct? WIFOMing scum is shooting yourself in the foot.

[Mathdino]

WIFOMing scum being productive or not is irrelevant.

What matters is whether Anen

thought

it was relevant, or if he's trying to cover his tracks.

I think his argument is genuine.

Oh yeah that's a good point actually. His response to my argument fits his town playstyle quite well.

Anen shouldnt do it again but reread shows a townish D2.

[Mathdino]

These 3 tabs are staring at me.

Judging me.

UNVOTE: 3G
until I finish and get rid of those 3. Don't really like IK putting him at L-1 for only that post, which isn't really the scummiest of today. Want to see that reads list.

[Mathdino]

I love that screenshot. My favorite part is the bookmark folder "Inspirational Crap." (That's just behind the TV Tropes tabs and the link to the Caltech Harvey Mudd Math Competition.)

Wait do you do math competitions? Were you at CHMMC? :O

Is that a Lost tab I spy with my little eye?

I guess you can't be

all

bad.

The guy that played Jacob is in another series I'm watching called The Tomorrow People. Cheesy title, but decent storyline.

LOST is my 2nd fav show, rewatching it with a friend

It looks like there is a tab for everything and then some. Should we be worried about the Tor guide?

nawwwwwww

/fluffposting

[Mathdino]

@mod: Can you put who's not voting so I can better keep track of the players?

[Mathdino]

The GGG wagon being completely unopposed isn't a good sign.

Hmm. This could be explained by texcat bussing, methinks. texcat has a history of hardbussing, and 3G's not only probably the weakest link on the scumteam, but his flip also half 'clears' her.

Wait do you do math competitions? Were you at CHMMC? :O

No, just a useless piece of trivia floating around in my head. I heard the acronym before and I figured since you were

Math

Dino that's what the bookmark went to.

not to be all hipster but
that's a really obscure piece of trivia
like i do math competitions as a hobby
and i didn't even know about it until i searched for math competitions for fall 2014

[Mathdino]

The GGG wagon being completely unopposed isn't a good sign.

Hmm. This could be explained by texcat bussing, methinks. texcat has a history of hardbussing, and 3G's not only probably the weakest link on the scumteam, but his flip also half 'clears' her.

How does this work when I flip town? Your using pre-flip associative meta to confirm scum reads.

Basically you are saying that because scum tex would bus her partner that I must be scum so the vote makes sense. This only a day after you were arguing that either myself or texcat is scum. You're overplaying the lynch with the nice unvote.

I have scumreads on both of you, and this game isn't making much sense to me since the more I read through these people's ISOs, the more townreads I get from everyone except you, texcat, and MME. It's infuriating.
As such, I'm starting to rethink the idea that you're not scum together since that predicates you not bussing each other. Yet texcat is a known busser, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was planned out by you two, since TTH makes an excellent point.
I've been proven wrong before by wagon pseudoscience and it's usually because of bussing or apathetic scum. MME being scum makes perfect sense here with you since he's totally inactive and isn't trying to stop the lynch.

Also I still think you're scum and want you lynched. But I'm not gonna let you get lynched until everyone's (including me) checked in.

I also don't think you should be at L-1 due to risk of self-hammering, but it's not a perfect world. Maybe you're gonna try to get a claim out of someone.

[Mathdino]

Hmm. This could be explained by texcat bussing, methinks. texcat has a history of hardbussing, and 3G's not only probably the weakest link on the scumteam, but his flip also half 'clears' her.

How about the other 4 names on the wagon? Where do you think they fit in to the bussing theory?

Hmm, well, right now I'm working off townreads on you, copper, GIF, C+A, and sorta almost IK/Aneninen but not really. I find Aneninen more likely to be scum than IK, but I find IK more likely to bus than Aneninen, so not really sure on that. Meanwhile, based on their behaviour toward the wagon, I think copper's the more likely one to be bussing 3G and C+A less likely due to their relative nonchalance about it. Bussing scum tends to be more aware of each other's behaviour as I've seen.

Regardless, I'm still looking at texcat/MME after 3G most likely flips scum. It works perfectly.

If he flips town, I'll have to take a closer look at texcat/Anen/IK. I question whether scum-texcat would jump on a wagon leading to town when his flip would drown her.

Edit: Written before copper's last post.

[Mathdino]

@GGG

what a bizarre read.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If it looks like it has a town feel it's because only town can profit from it and I'm also wondering at the lack of resistance, so I'd like to have the full picture before committing.

My only issue is why you're commenting on how no one should declare intent while also L-1ing him.

You should step off, I'm paranoid of quickhammerers. Particularly MME coming back and quickhammering.

@3G: Mehhh. I can almost see your point but it only works if copper's post reads fake, which it doesn't.

[Mathdino]

Given the activity level of some players (Acryon IK MME) it's possible/certain they haven't seen the thread yet, I'd like to give them time to post their reads and/or get substituted before lynching someone, so please give them a few days to do so before stating intent if you want to do so.

Actually hang on, this is looking scummier the more I look at it. It definitely doesn't read fake but the fact that you didn't unvote almost betrays your point...

[Mathdino]

Hang on are you going with the "That was all a reaction test" argument???

[Mathdino]

Not really. It'd make for an amazingly easy lynch tomorrow.

Isn't this almost exactly what copper said?

I want to vote IK but the issue is reading him is so closely tied to 3G's alignment and I'm not even sure how yet. There's probably something in his interactions that rules something out, so I'll report on that in reads list.

[Mathdino]

Wow okay so that's a lie.

VOTE: Idiotking

This is now independent of 3G.

[Mathdino]

I'm feeling better about copper and worse about acryon the more I read this page.

Granted, I only really skimmed the arguments so that may change when I get back.