Advance Wars UPick!--Game Over..?

[fferyllt]

hi guys

/confirm

[fferyllt]

Oh and as a flavor expert:

Do not claim your nationality (your neighborhood) early or without reason

Some nations have way more powerhouses than others. If there's hoods without scum in them, I'd like them to be stuck guessing who and which ones.

For those of you that were in my tales of you game, think like those neighborhoods but even more secretive.

Are you thinking that FE:A style setup breaking is contra-indicated?

[fferyllt]

So Saki, you seem pretty invested in this game.

[fferyllt]

/confirm

Well shit, I wish I read this thread before posting in my neighborhood.
Feeling embarrassed.


Also, I kinda wanna vote Cabd just 'cus he's suggesting setup-related stuff, even if I agree with it.
It means he's thought more about this game than me.
Which is a good indicator he's scum.

Town Cabd likes breaking setups.

[fferyllt]

^^ Scumclaim

[fferyllt]

I'm going to consider that an omgus.

[fferyllt]

I don't like your meta-input on Cabd
Or what you said earlier about gaming the setup.
Or that you consider my input a scumclaim.
Or that you consider my vote an omgus.

Why can't my points actually matter?
Why's it gotta be just an 'omgus' vote?
Why you gotta try to handwave the legitimacy of my vote?

"try" "handwave".

I don't like your entrance into the neighborhood.

[fferyllt]

I don't understand or have a ton of knowledge about the setup.
I imagine scum probably have more setup knowledge than town.
So I imagine that scum could game the setup towards their own advantage.
Which is why I'm more okay with Cabd being like, "Let's avoid that shit."
And less okay with Ffery talking about maybe gaming it in 26.

You don't like my entrance because it confirms me as town and you're scum.
It's pretty obvious you wouldn't like town being confirmed and would immediately want to deny that it's a confirming act if you're scum.
If you're town, I figure you'd be more willing to think about it and consider it rather than immediately treating me this way.

You're voting me and you're bitching that I should be more willing to think about YOU?

I gave you a heads up that you've come off scummy as fuck to me.

I'm giving you time to put down data that suggests your entrance wasn't as scummy as it looked, because I know that not all town players do town the
way I do town, and I know that town-you has an utterly abysmal record of correctly reading me.

That's what willingness to think about you looks like in feryland.

[fferyllt]

Good show, ffery.
"You can't read me!"
"You're bad!"

Whatever.

great job slapping down the reach out.

[fferyllt]

Doesn't matter how cheeky I am lol

Noone seems to care

I'll worry about you later.

[fferyllt]

It's one of the roles I consider claiming right away because it's neg utility. The pingy part is that Varsoon seemed to think it was a cool thing to be.

[fferyllt]

I agree

Being able to coast to lylo on pure cheek will be fun

Pedit-

I think its entertaining that people will just keep dealing with me later bpc

Its like "here ns, kill these people and get to lylo"

Why do you want to be a distraction? What do you think about Saki? What do you think about Varsoon?

[fferyllt]

Ffery didn't assume that I slipped and posted in the wrong thread. Ffery wanted to push me for role-claiming right away, but didn't explain any reason for the push other than that my role-sharing was a 'scumclaim'.

You're right, I didn't. The thing that tweaked my antennae was that it looked like you assumed it was an all town neighborhood. I see why Ceph thinks it's a scumslip, though.

Cephrir assumed I scumslipped and posted in the wrong thread. This lines up right with when he started pushing me in the game thread.

So I'm willing to believe that the fact this revelation came Cephrir, who does not know if I am scum or not, but not to ffery (who would know I was not scum) is a good indicator of ffery-scum.

I'm townreading ceph for his reaction.

But I can't read Ffery and it's unfair to base judgments solely based on assuming stuff about fellow players.

I am very paradoxically seeing some town in your reaction to Ceph. :/

[fferyllt]

Varsoon gets town points for not replacing out yet.

VOTE: varsoon

wat

[fferyllt]

So, basically, there's one of two things I want to do:

DIE RIGHT THE FUCK NOW so that there's PoE from my wagon and I'm out the game for being an idiot.
Stick around

to try to help scum

, even though I'm essentially a VT now.

:/

[fferyllt]

I'm townreading ceph for his reaction.

On the one hand, I think this is a reasonable position, and I think I am very town.

On the other, I can't remember the last time you thought I was town and didn't attach qualifiers to it.

I can't remember you ever doing anything that ever gave me such a strong reason to townread you.

I reserve the right to attach qualifiers as the occur to me though!

[fferyllt]

<3 ffery


It's a joke, because I'm so useless that my votes will probably always be on town.
(also, I thought I wrote 'catch' scum in there, but I apparently did not.)
VOTE: ffery

My gut is disagreeing very loudly with my head about you. Every time I try to reply to you, I find that I'm writing to town-Varsoon.

[fferyllt]

Fuck

Ffery was my trump card

I'm not doing this hard enough

What is this?

[fferyllt]

That was a post

Explain it please.

[fferyllt]

What is there to explain

You were the scumbud I expected to live on the longest without being suspected

So my attempt to draw everyone's attention with my extreme cheek failed

Are you and Varsoon both jesters?

[fferyllt]

If I was a jester id just lurk, ffery

Wouldn't work. I'd defend you for playing to your recent town meta.

[fferyllt]

<3 Orci-town, I think.

[fferyllt]

Actually no, I'm not ready to declare orci town yet.

I forget sometimes how good he is.

hence the "I think".

You're right he's good, but his bpc push looks very townminded to me. The only time I've ever seen scum-him do something that strongly town in the very-early game, it was multiball.

[fferyllt]

Really. It's about the observations, not the number of posts.

[fferyllt]

Really. It's about the observations, not the number of posts.

So maybe it's coming down to more of a matter of semantics, but the impact that actually comes from a push is larger. If say, BPC had put in a few posts about orci or maybe if his original vote on orci contained any trace of explicit reasoning, then I might agree. But meh. It's not like it was that convincing. Orci didn't react. Meh.

What are you even talking about? BPC hasn't voted orci.

[fferyllt]

Really. It's about the observations, not the number of posts.

So maybe it's coming down to more of a matter of semantics, but the impact that actually comes from a push is larger. If say, BPC had put in a few posts about orci or maybe if his original vote on orci contained any trace of explicit reasoning, then I might agree. But meh. It's not like it was that convincing. Orci didn't react. Meh.

What are you even talking about? BPC hasn't voted orci.

Awko. I switched the two names. Point still applies.

This entire convo is confusing me. Your point has very little to do with my orci-read.

[fferyllt]

This entire convo is confusing me. Your point has very little to do with my orci-read.

I'll take down the quote pyramid and rephrase then. I feel like it wasn't a real push and that you're overreaching a townread.

Not a real push? I disagree. It was clear air in a game that's been murked up by varsoon's whatever the fuck that is, and notsci's trolling.

[fferyllt]

Actually no, I'm not ready to declare orci town yet.

I forget sometimes how good he is.

hence the "I think".

You're right he's good, but his bpc push looks very townminded to me. The only time I've ever seen scum-him do something that strongly town in the very-early game, it was multiball.

this makes me feel very uncomfortable but then again that's how i always feel when you drop a townread on me after like two posts

idk what i'm going to do with you fery

ssk why are you even bothering notsci is vigbait/policy lynch. tell me about varsoon walking into a neighborhood and calling ppl "assholes"

Might I suggest working with me? I'm pretty damned excited to have townreads on two players who can give me nightmares.

[fferyllt]

Also I'm pretty sure I'm going to cheat and make orc sort ffery and vice versa.

done. time to sort you.

[fferyllt]

what makes more sense, ssk

1) varsoon walks into a neighborhood, starts off with a big laugh, calling his fellow neighbors assholes
2) varsoon walks into a scum qt, starts off with a big laugh, calling his fellow scumfucks assholes

pretty much this. adding in the varsoon factor.

If I had all kinds of spare time I'd go looking for games where he was in a neighborhood.

[fferyllt]

Also while I am at it, congrats to SSK for being actually functional this game. Keep it up and I won't totally hate you this round!

Is it alignment indicative functionality? I'm remembering Nati's mini normal.

[fferyllt]

hush. I'm sorting Cabd.

[fferyllt]

^If this post looks like the one in the neighborhood I'm probably 150% ready to autolynch.

It kinda does in terms of laying out his abilities. I'm not getting quite as much of a high-five feel from the tone.

[fferyllt]

I'm really hoping to put you in my townpile quickly if at all. Because an FE:A style gamebreak session would be awesome.

[fferyllt]

Given the claim on the board plus my own, nati used flavor heavily when designing roles, so I can probably evaluate almost any claim based upon flavor fitting-ness.

I'm almost positive I can lash everyone, even you, to the wall with fake flavor claims if made.

heh. If the fake claim were up to me, I'd be easy to lash. You think you could sort out Nati-provided fake claims?

[fferyllt]

some parts of our neighborhood are discussing full-claiming the hood. What do you think?

[fferyllt]

These questions might be best not answered, I dunno.

How much variance would you expect in neighborhood size? Is it safe to assume that some neighborhood are scum-free?

[fferyllt]

^If this post looks like the one in the neighborhood I'm probably 150% ready to autolynch.

It kinda does in terms of laying out his abilities. I'm not getting quite as much of a high-five feel from the tone.

This may not be as clear as I thought. The post in this game's neighborhood has a stronger high-five feel than the post you dug up.

[fferyllt]

Still feel the need to sort me, or have you seen the light?

1st approximation of light, yes.

[fferyllt]

Did ffery express suspicion of Varsoon in the neighborhood before the day started?

Ceph or Varsoon himself can confirm this. My first post after Varsoon's entrance in the neighborhood was to tell him I was going to assume he's scum. Ten minutes after my neighborhood post, he voted me in the game thread.

[fferyllt]

I am regretting joining this game, I think

ffery/ceph, your hood has more than three people in it?

I'm not going to answer this for now.

[fferyllt]

I can believe Cephrir because of how he handled it--it felt like he genuinely saw my post as a scum slip.
In our QT, Ffery immediately said it was a scum-claim and didn't seem at all to be under the impression that I slipped.
Basically, Ffery went right into weaponizing my play against me whereas Cephrir's reaction was genuine town feeling great for catching slipped scum.
Orci's push on me feels pressureless. Orci's cute this game, though. Doesn't feel scum to me. That's gut. I don't put a lot of value there, but maybe I should more often?

I think it's weird that you're upholding Ffery's play as town -because- of how your miller claim was treated in a game where she was town.
Like, as if a player like Ffery would have some huge glaring difference between their town and scum interaction with an early questionable claim.
Also, my 'spitfite' of accusations is mostly me pointing out how Ffery's using typical scummy dismissive rhetoric to perpetuate her points as the valid ones and mine as inane.
Which was, in turn, scoffed at.

We've bumped heads before and I've sunk too far into tunneling Ffery based on rhetoric in Death's Diner (who was part of the Rift Adrift hydra. I'm Jabarkas in that game).
Which gave me mixed feelings about my gut reaction to when players have scum-as-shit rhetoric, because I also sunk into Amrun, who turned out to be scum in that game.
So I've come to just kind of seethe at people who are jerks and try my best to focus on other elements of play.
Which is why I've backed off from my Ffery vote, although it feels weird that Ffery would further handwave my voting based on our previous interaction.
I really hate when players say shit like, "You're terrible at reading me."

Varsoon, you've left out a several games where we've both been town and you've misread me. Like EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ONE OF THEM.

It's a bad habit on my part that I tend to assume that you scumreading me right off the bat is a town tell for you. This time you entered with a horrible clang of a post in the neighborhood, and that has precluded a complacent read of you a little. Because some day I expect your off-the-bat scumread to be completely manufactured.

[fferyllt]

as I wait their response, I'll start off here




Saki
honey bee
Ffery
Orci
notsci

BPC
Ceph
STD

Flubbernugget
MafiaSSK
Cabd
Varsoon

Explain your honey bee and Saki reads, plz.

What Cabd is doing goes considerably beyond setup spec. And the way he's doing it looks town to me.

[fferyllt]

I don't know what to think on people because they all seem to have played together and are talking about that and interacting like old friends. I have no idea what to comment on or how to even remotely go about scumhunting. Right now, I'm just commenting on anything that pops out to me and really mostly just answering your stuff.

I don't think I'm avoiding Varsoon talk, I think the whole situation is just fairly cut and dry. He probably slipped, he got called out for it, he flailed when pressured, and here we are!

I haven't done stuff with my vote on notsci because notsci just kinda fucked off and I realized he's gonna probably continue to fuck off like he's been doing. I don't really know where else my vote would go that would be good for pressure right now because I don't feel strongly enough about anyone possibly being scummy.

My thoughts so far are that Varsoon more than likely scumslipped, he'll more than likely be the lynch today. Ceph's reaction to the whole thing felt very town. You seem town I guess? I'm mostly going off of other's thoughts. MafiaSSK I'm not sure on, null, I guess! Nothing else really sticking out.

The few people I know I can interact with in this game are going to be Ceph, STD, and possibly Mara, but I really don't have much experience with most anyone in the game.

can fery/ceph confirm or deny my understanding of what happened?

He didn't mention the neighborhood name in his first post. It was a reference to "you assholes".

Is that what you mean?

[fferyllt]

I said that I would gain the abilities of the 'first of you assholes who dies'.

I mean this was the quote i had in mind but we can ask for a fery/ceph confirmation i guess

why do you have ceph/fery as you do in your reads?

That's true, he didn't actually mention a faction when he claimed did he.

Maybe I needed more coffee this morning.

Ceph's push on Varsoon seems town. Quickly and aggressively acting on a what looks to be scumslip will give him some towncred with me for now. fferyllt I just haven't been able to get a read on yet, so she's null.

Your thoughts on the 3?

What gave you the impression re the bolded?

[fferyllt]

I'm a hater.

[fferyllt]

plz, I'm pretty much already conf. town

I would vote you for this post, but I am too busy voting Varsoon

you know this is a joke, and where it comes from

and yes, I'm reading bee as town, though he's posted once. problem?

how did you get a town read off of this:

/confrim

[fferyllt]

Firstly, it makes no sense to assume the neighborhood was a masonry, which is what he claimed.

I didn't know this was going to be a neighborhood game, I assume other people didn't (at least Konowa specifically mentioned he didn't).

Ok. Fery/cephrir, how large is the neighborhood? Just say if it's more than 3. Because if the neighborhood is larger than 3 there is no way a same person would've thought that it was a ma

It's more than 3.

[fferyllt]

There's a sort of thought process to Varsoon's first few neighborhood posts. Let me see if I can summarize it.

- He makes the big boisterous to "you assholes" with his ability claim.
- He said how many stars his co ability requires
- He says he now realizes the neighborhood could have scum in it.
- He surmises we can tell he's town for the above slip, and laments that scum now know about his cool abilities.
- He says he should have read the game thread before posting

(I post that I'm going to assume he's scum, and he might want to work on that)

- SSK tells varsoon way to go.
- varsoon posts a text emote
- Ceph asks him why he'd assume the neighborhood is all town, says it's p much the opposite of what most people would assume.
- Varsoon says he thought each alliance would have it's own qt, and that neo black would be one of the alliances with their own qt and (I think this is what he meant) the mod wouldn't allow players to say who are in their alliance in the game thread, and indicates he realizes it was a bad assumption in retrospect.
- In his next post, it sounds like he thought each alliance was a full faction. He says he he made the first post above, then read the thread, then realized the co stars were important and posted about that, and then realized he'd goofed.

Anyway, the bit about alliances being full factions is me making a very small logical leap from what he actually posted, but I think it's kinda key. I'm mulling that over. My first reaction on reading my role pm was "translate please?"

[fferyllt]

ugh I did.

[fferyllt]

I have a more or less stock reaction to people claiming miller, all things being equal. I am having trouble seeing my reaction to Varsoon which is not even slightly how I feel toward rvs-period miller claims, reminds Brian of the On A Boat game we played where he was miller.

Ceph also picked up on something I missed.

Brian's a cautious null for me atm.

Also, pls explain why you have Saki as 2nd tier town.

[fferyllt]

ffery said something about it, in response to me I think but I still don't think this is outside the realm of possiblity for cabdscum

This bugs me.

It bugs me on a global, generic level so I'm going to vent.

My reads are gestalts and for that reason they change easily sometimes. A new post may completely change the illumination on a body of work. But, they are gestalts of what I think motivates not just what people say but the way they say it. I'm not going to write 8 paragraphs on all the nuances of the way something is said that makes me lean town or scum. But, that thought process is there. And It annoys the fuck out of me when someone brushes it aside and says "but they could do that as scum, too", when the person may not even be aware of what my "that" entails.

[fferyllt]

this doens't strike me as particularly weird what are everyone's problems with it

The fact that he said that and then immediately voted Varsoon.

[fferyllt]

If people haven't gotten a town read off me yet, then they probably never will until I get shot and flip town.

If you think this isn't me tryharding you are ignoring a year and a half of cabd as town setup breaking meta, a la paradox and FE:A.

Oh and re: mara my read has nothing to do with any of our maraca games, mara. It has to do with you displaying scum-PM fatigue like in nati's bastard mini.

You forgot marketplace 3.

[fferyllt]

Ceph, I trust you. Give me the run down on Cabd. I have no idea how to even begin reading or anything there. Also do ffery, because generally she scares me iin every game I'm in with her!

I don't recall scaring you so much you wouldn't even talk to me directly in our prior games where you were something resembling town.

[fferyllt]

Ffery sans paranoia also isn't a whole lot of fun

what does this mean?

[fferyllt]

Are my intentions with every post really that unclear?

I'm wondering if I'm having trouble reading Cabd or if I'm legitimately on the right path. I don't know if many people have blatantly expressed a town read of Cabd but as I recalled you did.

And seriously what other questions have I dropped that have been empty? Much of what I've done has been to try and determine someone's alignment.

have I not?

If I haven't expressed it, consider this to be a blatant expression of my townread of Cabd.

[fferyllt]

I don't remember.

Okay then, do you think I'm way off with 476 then?

Your post suggests you have zero experience playing with Cabd. If you want meta of him gamebreaking and generally being over the top assertive and self confident as town I'll be happy to link you. If you want meta of him playing scum in neighborhoods I'll be happy to link you to those too.

If Cabd were in a neighborhood with me, I'd probably be a hell of a lot more cautious than I feel right now, because he'd be in a much stronger position to mess with my head, shape my reads, etc.

If he's scum, then he probably has a backchannel into my head via a scum-neighbor. That's the scope of my paranoia atm.

[fferyllt]

Does Varsoon ever use the word "mason" or "masonry" in the neighborhood?

Not the words. Implicit in his posts was an assumption that we were all one faction.

[fferyllt]

I don't want SMP to be lost in all this btw.

[fferyllt]

I have a more or less stock reaction to people claiming miller, all things being equal. I am having trouble seeing my reaction to Varsoon which is not even slightly how I feel toward rvs-period miller claims, reminds Brian of the On A Boat game we played where he was miller.

It has to do with the way you acknowledged my claim was scummy but didn't immediately jump on me. You acknowledged I could still be town and gave me some room to breathe. You were also the one person who changed your vote off of me at the end of that Day 1, despite not actually fighting for me in any way.

I couldn't get the lynch I wanted that day (scum-Empire), and I fully expected you to flip town. All the replacements towards the end of the game day kinda wrecked the town cohesion that almost came together.

One of the things about fighting lynches late in the game day is that you run a very real risk of winding up with a nolynch.

[fferyllt]

I might later.

[fferyllt]

I now amazingly good reason to believe that {marangal, STD} cannot be scum together.


Ffery, I'm actually surprised you vocalized a strong town read, without giving away the arms race you might wish to unpack that ITT

ok so in minor arcana terms, you gamebreak as both (all?) alignments when the setup looks like it can be exploited. Reading you in this kind of game always comes down to how you go about the gamebreaking, and whether your posts are shedding light or not. You also, as town, are waaaay more insufferable when you go into crack-the-game mode. There are some things I'm looking for as the game develops. I may point and laugh if they happen.

There's other stuff, of course.

I have minor paranoid twinges about you and a member of my neighborhood. Fulminating on that.

[fferyllt]

Oh, BPC?? asked me why Saki was Scum?
Investment.

What are your thoughts about his reply to me on the topic of investment?

[fferyllt]

I figured that we all had our individual factions, like a multiball of some sort, but that we were trying to all figure out who the Neo Black Hole faction was and lynch them all. Neo Black Hole would be, like, members of various different alliances so fake-claims could fit

So...you...didn't think the neighborhood was all town, then....???

I -did- think my neighborhood was an all-town faction that was one of several all-town factions.
It doesn't matter anymore. People like Orci will just continue to lie about our QT and insist I'm twisting or 'mangling' the truth.

Truth is, I made a stupid mistake, and you're all gullible enough to believe scum and lynch me for it.
And I'm okay with that. I'm trying to do some work before I die.
Even though I know you douchebags won't care about my posts after I am dead.
Because NO ONE ever does.
Scum is relying on this, and wants to position me as a VI who couldn't possibly be right.
So that you'll all mislynch me, then on my flip, you can all be "OH, lol, Varsoon is such a dumbass, well time to disregard any of his input LOLOLOLOLOL"
How do I know this?
Because it happens a fucking load when I'm set up as an early Mislynch.
It's usually a good indicator that town's going to lose the game.
Check Hip Hop Mafia, etc.

@varsoon:

How the hell could you have been confused by your wincon?

At least you're asking the right questions.
Everyone else is content to be all "LOL EZ SCUMSLIP"
My wincon just says that I win when all, and in red so I can't possibly miss it, Neo Black Hole members are dead.
I don't know what the scum role PM looks like, but I imagine it actually does illuminate
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SCUM QT AND A MIXED QT
AND IT PROBABLY MAKES A HUGE FUCKING DEAL ABOUT ME BEING SCUM
But, no,

Scum is banking on you all being so brain-dead and stupid to think that someone on-site could make such a mistake.

I assure you the scum QT, if it has daytalk, is full of guys high-fiving and laughing at how easy they have it because town can't think for itself.

I'm sorry I made such a dumb mistake, town.
I fucked us over, but don't forget that

you

fucked me over.

PEDIT:
ORCI, I DID NOT ASSUME IT WAS A MASONRY BECAUSE MY PM JUST CALLED IT AN ALLIANCE
I FIGURED THAT AN ALLIANCE WAS AKIN TO A GROUP LIKE IN MULTIBALL OR SOMETHING
IT WAS A DUMB MISTAKE, BUT I DID NOT EVER FUCKING USE THE WORD 'MASONRY', SO STOP TELLING BLATANT LIES.

How is an assumption that it's an all town faction different from an assumption that it's a masonry? As near as I can tell what this means is that there's some ineffable difference between a group of players in a neighborhood you immediately assume are all town upon receipt of your role PM and a group of players that are mod confirmed town to you? To me, that's not an ineffable difference. To me it's a difference that would preclude dumping the info you dumped in your first post.

Why did you make that assumption?

[fferyllt]

Black Hole

is Sturm/Albert B. Rampage, Hawke/MafiaSSK, Lash/fferyllt, Flak/Cephrir, Von Bolt/orcinus_theoriginal, Jugger/Varsoon and is aligned with the

ALLIED NATIONS

.

I saw this as meaning that we were all town-aligned.

Why in the hell did you think posting this here is protown?

[fferyllt]

If you're town, I can't even fathom the thought progression there.

[fferyllt]

It is literally anti-town not to claim my faction, of whom I am wholly convinced has scum on it at this point.
Probably multiple scum, since it makes sense to me that NEO BLACK HOLE would have BLACK HOLE members.
Now town can maybe figure out the sorts of abilities and stuff scum has.


ORC, IF YOU BELIEVE IN MAKING NEIGHBORHOOD MEMBERSHIP PUBLIC, THEN WHY ARE YOU PUSHING MY CLAIMING OUR NEIGHBORHOOD AS SCUMMY?
YOU ARE JUST POSTURING, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL.

@Ffery: Because after I flip it'll give town a pool to lynch from.
@Cephrir: That's why I wrote the word 'act'. Please, read before posting. If anything, let my death be an example of the stupidity of not comprehensively reading before posting.

I"m speechless. Players in the hood, sure. Their character names?

No.

Fuck that.

[fferyllt]

It is literally anti-town not to claim my faction, of whom I am wholly convinced has scum on it at this point.
Probably multiple scum, since it makes sense to me that NEO BLACK HOLE would have BLACK HOLE members.
Now town can maybe figure out the sorts of abilities and stuff scum has.


ORC, IF YOU BELIEVE IN MAKING NEIGHBORHOOD MEMBERSHIP PUBLIC, THEN WHY ARE YOU PUSHING MY CLAIMING OUR NEIGHBORHOOD AS SCUMMY?
YOU ARE JUST POSTURING, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL.

@Ffery: Because after I flip it'll give town a pool to lynch from.
@Cephrir: That's why I wrote the word 'act'. Please, read before posting. If anything, let my death be an example of the stupidity of not comprehensively reading before posting.

I"m speechless. Players in the hood, sure. Their character names?

No.

Fuck that.

[fferyllt]

If you're town, I can't even fathom the thought progression there.

I'm fucked anyway.
I think this helps town catch scum.
Town is willing to disregard what I do, so I shouldn't do it in half-measures.

I think it helps scum a hell of a lot more.

GJ.

[fferyllt]

This reminds me a little of the way Varsoon self-destructed in the Touhou Imperishable Nights mini game. I cdon't think there's anyone here besides Cabd and me who played that game.

[fferyllt]

This reminds me a little of the way Varsoon self-destructed in the Touhou Imperishable Nights mini game. I cdon't think there's anyone here besides Cabd and me who played that game.

What was his alignment there, please?

Town. This is way, way way more over the top, though.

[fferyllt]

On my part, that is.
I do not handle embarrassment well.

Work on that, then.

If you're town, you've wrecked any chance of getting scum lynched today, and I don't even know how to assess how bad the rest of the damage could be. I'm typing in multisyllables and not going for the big annoying font and stuff, but I don't get much more pissed than this.

[fferyllt]

Brian can also join that list

Are you avoiding me?

[fferyllt]

--Alignment Affiliations are the ones that determine your alignment. The primary two in this game are the Allied Nations and Neo Black Hole, which represent the standard town/mafia factions, respectively. There may or may not be other Alignment Affiliations.

I think this explicitly leaves open the possibility of 3rd parties.

[fferyllt]

Brian can also join that list

Are you avoiding me?

You still need to be sorted, not doing that atm

I do not believe for one minute that you can't read me based on what's already in the game thread.

[fferyllt]

Mara, I have my hesitations on Orci-scum, but only because I know how obstinate Orci-town can get.
I do think he's scumming it up with trying to direct docs and defect with certain folks from our QT, though.

VOTE: Orcinus

Go look at NY 165 for how town-orcinus spreads protection umbrellas over his townreads.

[fferyllt]

That's a totally, TOTALLY invalid reason for thinking he's scum.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Varsoon

[fferyllt]

I can't find the threads of where I had applied it, but I know that I applied it to Thor once and caught him with it.

I drop that tell as town all the time even though I know you want it to be a thing. I remember reading your thread while playing a game that was riddled with replacements.

[fferyllt]

pedit: this isn't happening any day, but today short of a role that is confirmed town

No. You're not getting this wagon. If you're town then you need to think about the effect Varsoon is going to have on this game by nature of turning this huge neighborhood into a place where half the neighbors don't post at all there and don't even get called down on it, as well as by installing a picture window in it and tearing down the curtains.

I've been in large contested neighborhoods before and I have strong opinions about what kinds of stuff from the neighborhood need to make it into the game thread for all to see and what kinds of stuff you have to hope scum may not have access to or may not realize the significance of.

I hate what Varsoon's actions have done to this game and I believe that the most protown thing I can do today is get it stopped, regardless of his alignment. Which is why I finally voted him. I have trouble understanding how any town player in their own neighborhood this game feels differently.

[fferyllt]

Wait, no, I'm not sorry.
Scum -wants- you to think what I've contributed is anti-town and useless.
Scum is literally pushing a policy lynch and saying, "EVEN IF HE IS TOWN, LOOK HOW ANTITOWN HE IS."

This is bullshit.
And you're just going to let it happen, town?

The closest to town you've ever gotten in my eyes here is "god that's scummy, but

maybe

you're town and are just shitting on this game for unfathomable reasons." Of the vocal members of the neighborhood I'm the only one who's ever given you the slightest benefit of the doubt. Don't you dare take that and try to cast that s a townread and policy vote.

[fferyllt]

How am I shitting on this game?

I really can't stand this mentality.

Feeling's mutual.

[fferyllt]

I'm still waiting for an explanation on why we shouldn't have mass flavorclaimed

Because some neighborhoods may not have any scum in them?

[fferyllt]

@Varsoon: Don't confuse the issue, though.

1. You outed your neighbourhood PRIOR to me saying that scum probably know who is in a particular neighbourhood anyway because they probably have scumchat to share that information. That doesn't justify your move preemptively. It doesn't make your behaviour less anti-town just because it doesn't have the same horrible effect. Seizing on something I said as your justification for your actions doesn't justify them in retrospect.

2. Your stance on your neighbourhood frankly makes no sense. If you thought it was a masonry, then why would you deny it in thread? If you didn't, why would you share your role with people of uncertain alignment? You don't seem to know yourself what it was you thought you were doing there.

3. Save the Dragons and ABR will back me up that an unintentional slip can often denote scum. Saying "someone is bussing me!" is about equivalent to saying "I want to stay in the game to help scum." It's not irrelevant. Your "it's a joke, no, it's a typo, well, it's both" explanation didn't impress me.

4. Spamming the thread is anti-town regardless of your alignment and makes it harder for town to sort their reads now and in the later game. It is even worse for any possible replacements.

5. Your playstyle may differ; as town in your situation, I would be giving reads and commenting on other players in a substantial way instead of just flailing randomly to prove my innocence. Especially in a game like this, giving as much info on your reads as possible to town is critical for town. You're not doing any of that; instead, you're engaging in frantic OMGUS and trying to prevent your lynch by every single means available to you, including some pretty anti-town moves.

If this is scum, I'm gonna cry.

[fferyllt]

Like that's the most comprehensive breakdown of the reasons for scum-Varsoon that's been posted I think.

[fferyllt]

in anycase, we're detracting ffrom the orc lynch

Not

going

to

happen.

[fferyllt]

WHO CARES IF VARSOON OUTTED HIS ROLE AND ABILITY IN THREAD AND THOUGHT THE HUGE NEIGHBORHOOD WAS ALL TOWN IT HAPPENED, LETS MOVE ON AND VOTE ORCI

If only that was the sum total of the reasons why people are voting Varsoon, huh?

[fferyllt]

weren't you guys scumreading mara

Certainly not townreading her. The best thing she's got going for her is that honeybee think she's town based on her neighborhood play and honeybee's in-game play looks pretty town to me.

[fferyllt]

I'm just trying to understand why if you think she's scum you feel the need to stonewall the orc push instead of push mara

Are you talking to me? It's because she's more of a question mark than a scumeread to me, and she's trying to dismantle the wagon I want to go through - Varsoon.

She hasn't interacted with me about anything other than our lynch druthers, she's not trying to sort me, she's not interested in me sorting her. I work with what she's giving me.

[fferyllt]

The tell is still valid. Players with history/playstyle thing towards that have been taken into consideration.

STD, why aren't you voting orci

On its own, I don't think it is. I can see town reasons to want to get a latecomer up to speed. I can see reasons to want to see the latecomer interact with the gamestate without the catchup.

I'm really hating that you're pushing something that I think you know is not even close to 100% and acting like it's practically a cop guilty.

The fact that you're doing it on a townread gives me one of the worst cases of mafia hives I've ever experienced.

As an aside, I don't like how my own reactions are becoming increasingly polarized. I can't tell how much of it is justified by this gamestate.

[fferyllt]

As an aside, I don't like how my own reactions are becoming increasingly polarized. I can't tell how much of it is justified by this gamestate.

how do you mean?

I mean I feel like my stances are fully justified, butt I'm a shades of grey player and a shades of grey analyst wrt to all things online and off.

Real life is probably getting to me.

[fferyllt]

Fery, what is your read of Orcinus? Of Mara?

orci-town
Mara-questionmark, high-priority null.

[fferyllt]

@Fery: I have Mara as lean-scum (it would be full scum if not for the WIFOM I keep having over why scum would push a lynch so hard; I've even considered the possibility of bussing) but otherwise same.

It's weird that I haven't seen much to make me question my townreads given the amount of activity in this game. That could be good or bad.

Scum-Mara pushes townie-lynches hard. I wouldn't give her much credit for that. I'm not sure if she pushes players she knows well when she's scum, though. The games I'm remembering, I'm pretty sure she was pushing players she thought would be relatively easy to mislynch.

Cabd could speak to her scum-meta more comprehensively.

Town-orci won't be an easy mislynch.

[fferyllt]

You've seen me push scum-tammy as scum before?

Is this to me? If it is, I don't get what you're trying to say.

[fferyllt]

Don't let scum continue to dupe you.
Orcinus is using an ability tonight to allow him to defect from Black Hole into a QT Alliance of his own

with anyone in Black Hole that elects to defect as well.

He convinced Ffery and Cephrir to go with him so far.

This is inaccurate. That's all I'm going to say.

[fferyllt]

Don't let scum continue to dupe you.
Orcinus is using an ability tonight to allow him to defect from Black Hole into a QT Alliance of his own with anyone in Black Hole that elects to defect as well.
He convinced Ffery and Cephrir to go with him so far.

Actually if you're alive at the end of this game day the existing neighborhood is dead (to me anyway) until you do die. If you flip town, it probably stays dead.

IF

you're town, you've gone from a binary assumption that the neighborhood was all town to a binary assumption that contains scum and that it's some sort of public service to report anything that might be useful to scum there in the game thread. Like there is absolutely no room in your perception for a middle ground where neighbors do something nuanced with a contested neighborhood.

[fferyllt]

Can I get a new neighborhood

What's wrong with your old hood?

[fferyllt]

It's going to be a bear for me to get back into this game, I think. :/

Notsci do you have a Cabd read?

What do you think of orci's players of interest?

[fferyllt]

I feel like my day 1 reads were to some extent coming from a naive, "I want everyone to be town" PoV. But, when I'm in that mode, my really strong town reads are usually town. I started the Serum and Steel game in that mode. Two of my 2nd tier town reads turned out to be scum.

I have one fear about Cabd and it's in a superstitious sort of "if you say it, it could become real" part of my mind. I'm going to hold it in check and see how things develop.

[fferyllt]

Let's see if it belongs to me then.

VOTE: Cabd

[fferyllt]

I quoted you simply to direct my post to you, not to respond to what I quoted. You're just very, how to say it...consensus-building. You're agreeable, you're positive, you seem perfectly reasonable.

Contrast with say cabd, who makes polarizing posts. I could vote for cabd, but he makes good posts I think come from town sometimes. I'm not really sure. I want to hear more from fferyllt. A better example might be DGB or me, who easily turn people against us with our forcefulness and aggressiveness. Your type of aggression, and you are aggressive, somehow has the uncanny knack to make people take your side instead of suspect you, regardless of alignment.

I think this is how you carry your way to the endgame as scum. I know it's your playstyle, but it's hard to read and harder to bring any sort of bandwagon against you because everybody likes you.

I'll have to analyze what you say more extensively.

Fferyllt, do you think Cephrir and orc are 100% town?

About 95% on both. There's that persistent gnat-like paranoid flicker that I'll never completely shake.

[fferyllt]

Thinking they're town doesn't equate to agreeing with scumreads. I'm still thinking through stuff. Will probably do a full reread later today.

I wish I still had read access to the large neighborhood thread. :/

[fferyllt]

Also, I won't put down a serious vote until I find out if that mk 2 thing has anything to do with my voting.

[fferyllt]

If it's not me, then I think we should go through player by player with vote then votecount and figure out who it belongs to.

[fferyllt]

I thought you did have access to it, and that's why Natirasha created a new quicktopic for me and MafiaSSK.

I can't read it, but I can see who posted last and when because I have it bookmarked. I think that's why Nati closed it.

[fferyllt]

Ffery why don't you have hood access anymore

The hood split up. Ceph, Orci and I have a neighborhood now. ABR and SSK are still in the formerly big neighborhood.

[fferyllt]

Maybe when you're willing to give reads on every player here.

How about you do the same?

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE:

Vote test canceled.

[fferyllt]

Are you suspecting Cabd

Me?

His play here is different from his scum games against me. Also, different from his recent town games against me (in terms of how he sorts me) but this is one of those games where I think I quickly came out very obvtown to anyone who knows how to read me. My one concern, really is pure gibbering paranoia that he's orchestrating the play of someone in my neighborhood.

One thing that makes me think it's baseless paranoia is that both orci and Ceph are giving me townfeels based on their meta and their reactions to the game state. I think if Cabd were orchestrating that, his "puppet" in the neighborhood would be doing stuff that would leave Cabd-fingerprints.

Hard to explain.

[fferyllt]

You're not in this game right now??

From a what now perspective, very much so. I'm getting there.

[fferyllt]

One thing that makes me think it's baseless paranoia is that both orci and Ceph are giving me townfeels based on their meta and their reactions to the game state. I think if Cabd were orchestrating that, his "puppet" in the neighborhood would be doing stuff that would leave Cabd-fingerprints.

This relies on the assumption that either orcinus or myself is unconfident enough in our scum game to let Cabd run us, does it not? Given the way I think as scum, I wouldn't be likely to take input on how to use my neighborhood.

On a gross level, it does. It would be hard to explain the kinds of stuff I would expect to happen even if I had no concerns about the meta game arms race.

[fferyllt]

Place your votes, folks. We need to thin the herd.

Day start was less than 24 hours ago. Why are you in such a hurry?

[fferyllt]

I don't remember you being all that proactive in our prior games.

[fferyllt]

I don't remember playing with you at any time at all.

You replaced into the On a Boat mini normal.

Red Wine large theme

Serum and Steel large theme (I was pixel).

There might have been another, but I don't think so.

[fferyllt]

You replaced into the On a Boat mini normal.

lol I checked the game. I made 6 posts and got mislynched.

True. I included that one because completeness and chronology.

This doesn't speak to my observation, though.

[fferyllt]

SSK, I legit just asked you what you thought of anyone. Please don't ignore me.

The structure of this game makes it very easy and even correct to do what orc was doing when called for. I think it is entirely reasonable and not very important. He is discussing it in the neighborhood and will presumably continue to do so, so I am uncertain what the problem is. I assure you there is a thought process occurring.

My problem is that is only occuring in the neighborhood, out of my sight and I am the only one who I can trust. I want to see the progress of how orci views Cabd and I want to see the reasons why. You know? Or does this not make sense to you?

Why is your focus so exclusively orci?

[fferyllt]

You replaced into the On a Boat mini normal.

lol I checked the game. I made 6 posts and got mislynched.

True. I included that one because completeness and chronology.

This doesn't speak to my observation, though.

Red Wine. I got mislynched Day 1.

Why did you ask me if I'm town (in the old neighborhood) at the end of day 1?

[fferyllt]

You made a post that annoyed me Day 2. Your responses have annoyed me more to the point of pissing me off. Yay.

Unfortunate, isn't it?

Unfortunate that my vote's just going to stay on you, isn't it?

This is a strange post for you to make.

[fferyllt]

You made a post that annoyed me Day 2. Your responses have annoyed me more to the point of pissing me off. Yay.

Unfortunate, isn't it?

Unfortunate that my vote's just going to stay on you, isn't it?

This is a strange post for you to make.

Aw. Why?

You're being kinda provocative.

[fferyllt]

Why did you ask me if I'm town (in the old neighborhood) at the end of day 1?

That was around the time I started reading the game. I was just putting you on the spot for fun.

hmm.

[fferyllt]

@Ffery: Was SSK more active in the neighbourhood than in this thread during Day One? Enough for you to get a read on him?

I would like an answer to my question to Ms. Marangal. Not interested in wagoning yet.

iirc he posted 2 or 3 times, including a post right after Varsoon's entrance to the effect of "good going".

Orcinus warned him not to join the new neighborhood a couple times. I don't think he ever responded to that.

It's kind of annoying not to be able to look back at what was posted there on day 1.

[fferyllt]

Ffery what do you think of house avatar

who?

[fferyllt]

It is weird. I'm trying to figure out if it's scummy.

He's been town in every one of the games we've played. My recollection of his play has been that he's kind of a curmudgeony nonentity who gets run up and lynched on day 1.

As scum, he's more out there, I think.

Cabd replaced into a scum team ABR was on in a game a few months ago. I want to see what he thinks.

And there's this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32183

[fferyllt]

Cabd actually is that slippery. If I had any confidence in my ability to read Cabd, I would do the same.

To take this a little further, this resonates with me because keeping scumreads hidden from Scumrir is a very good idea. Someone once pointed out during a replace in wall I was making that I sounded too certain and aggressive, which used to be markers of my scum game. I turned on a dime and started sounding really unsure of myself the moment this was said. Somehow, nobody noticed, and I believe I survived that game. And I think Cabd plays similarly, if more subtly.

That was me (and I think Nacho agreed).

The SK shot you in that game, I think.

[fferyllt]

I'd like to talk to you about the lord jesus christ

The fact you weren't vigged is an indication there is no god

I would probably have flipped a table. If scum-notsci has morphed into a top tier cheeky scumfuck over the last six months I'll quit mafia and take up tiddley-winks. Or knitting.

[fferyllt]

I'd like to talk to you about the lord jesus christ

The fact you weren't vigged is an indication there is no god

I would probably have flipped a table. If scum-notsci has morphed into a top tier cheeky scumfuck over the last six months I'll quit mafia and take up tiddley-winks. Or knitting.

Is this you saying notscience is scum?

Does it look like what I'm saying?

[fferyllt]

It's the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

[fferyllt]

It's the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

Elaborate on that then?

My most recent scumgame with him is Nati's mini normal that you also played. In that game he buddied and tried to do that "I'm obvtown" swagger he doesn't have to force when he's town. As the game progressed he became less assertive, and iirc his stances became more survivalist. In earlier games I remember him deathtunneling townies as scum.

To me, his play on day 1 was a lot easier to extrapolate from his recent town games than from his recent scum games.

His day 2 play looks pretty town to me.

What do you think?

[fferyllt]

I'm not sure about SMP, atm I'm leaning town but I'm back and forth

Have you played much with him?

[fferyllt]

VOTE: mara

i'll be partying in this thread with a bottle of jack later tonight if anybody wants to join ^^

Did I miss this?

[fferyllt]

Why did you ask me if I'm town (in the old neighborhood) at the end of day 1?

That was around the time I started reading the game. I was just putting you on the spot for fun.

I think I only shot squinty eyes at you when I read this. That question is the softest of softballs.

[fferyllt]

v/la. I'll try to catch up some tonight. No promises.

[fferyllt]

My concern about wgeurts is that his stream of posts is almost too zany to come from scum.

This is a quick drive by. I may not post again before Sunday or Monday.

I posted links to his games in my neighborhood. Ceph or orci are welcome to share the links and paraphrase my notes. I started working on a wgeurts meta dive a couple days ago. My initial impression was that he actually is quite a bit more zany as town.

[fferyllt]

I'm doing a catch-up now and this post really stands out to me because here I am reading through the same stuff trying to figure out what's going on, and I don't see where the bolded came from at all.

Very little time today and tomorrow to post, but let me get this all straight.

Cabd used a 1 shot CO power to cop Brian as town.

Mara used an amnesiac cop ability to cop Orci as town, which was sent to one of Cabd's neighborhood members.
There's a tracker in Cabd's neighborhood who tracked Orci last night.

wgeurts and Cabd are in a neighborhood together.

This needs to be looked at as more data about night actions comes in to see if it looks like there was prior knowledge here.

[fferyllt]

unvote;
Vote: Ms Marangal

This post bugs me just a little bit, given all the talk about scarfing up lynchwagon stars that was happening around it.

[fferyllt]

Actually no, I'm not ready to declare orci town yet.

I forget sometimes how good he is.

hence the "I think".

You're right he's good, but his bpc push looks very townminded to me. The only time I've ever seen scum-him do something that strongly town in the very-early game, it was multiball.

I waited a while to bring this up.

What did you mean here by "townminded"?

I had to go back and find the question you were waiting for me to ask. :/ Sorry about that.

"townminded" = "coming from a town mindset"

The game I was referencing was xenoblade, where your early day 1 scumhunting was genuine because you knew there was another scum team to hunt.

[fferyllt]

I'm not sure what I think about Mara's replace-out. I'm leaning that it points to her being town, but that big of an overreaction makes me worry a little about scum theater.

Cabd, I'm thinking this might have some parallels to my over-the-topness in that morph game, though.

[fferyllt]

ABR I have a question for you. When you said you're a double voter, I took it to mean that you are the explanation for the Neotank person in the vote count.

It's not moving with your vote, though, apparently.

Do you know if your vote is related to that thing?

Vote Count 2.5

Sensei: You know, back in my day, you whippersnappers...
Hachi: Oh boy, there the great Yamamoto goes again!

wgeurts(0):

LynxKuroneko(2):

Konowa, Honey bee

Flubbernugget(1):

MafiaSSK

Cephrir(0):

Save the Dragons(0):

BipolarChemist(0):

fferyllt(0):

MafiaSSK(0):

honey bee(0):

Cabd(0):

Ms Marangal(7):

Cephrir, orcinus_theoriginal, Bookitty,

Albert B. Rampage

,

Ms Marangal, Save The Dragons

Albert B. Rampage(0):

SMP(1):

Cheetory6

Brian Skies(0):

Cheetory6(1):

Brian Skies

Bookitty(0):

orcinus_theoriginal(0):

Saki(0):

Konowa(0):

notscience(0):

No Lynch(0):

Not Voting(10):

BipolarChemist, Cabd, SMP, Saki, notscience,

Neotank Mk2

,

fferyllt, Flubbernugget, wgeurts, LynxKuroneko

With twenty-one alive, it takes eleven to lynch.

(expired on 2014-11-27 21:00:00)

[fferyllt]

I forget who said they thought NeoTank sounded like something that Lynx would have. I want to confirm that if it's true.

VOTE: fferyllt

I feel like some of the people who have been in my scumpile have improved a little. Lynx and konowa are my big concerns atm. I need to look back at SMP and Flubbernugget to see if they've earned a ticket off the scumpile.

orci, I understand and to some extent share your concerns about Cabd. If he is scum, do you think he would have played his reaction to mara drunkenly replacing out like he did?

p-edit that was a lot of crossposts.

[fferyllt]

I feel really sure that orcinus is town based on both his posts in this game thread and based on his reactions to me in the neighborhood.

bookitty, orcinus and I both keep asking each other where to have convos, :/

[fferyllt]

my paranoia right now mostly centers on Cabd.

[fferyllt]

I feel like that's directed at me.

I will probably have more mafia time tonight. Need to go do shit for my mom right now.

[fferyllt]

my paranoia right now mostly centers on Cabd.

I can think of exactly 169 reasons not to be paranoid of me.

Ok. Maybe.

[fferyllt]

@Cabd

Spoiler:

I am regretting joining this game, I think

ffery/ceph, your hood has more than three people in it?

as I wait their response, I'll start off here




Saki
honey bee
Ffery
Orci
notsci

BPC
Ceph
STD

Flubbernugget
MafiaSSK
Cabd
Varsoon

Its a read list, yes. that is where my gut takes me, atm and as far as cabd goes, if hes town and wants to be read as town, he can go and earn it. set-up spec is null, coming from him

I feel like you are playing devils advocate, though Brian.

See this series of posts tells me several things.

1. Marangal is scum.

She can't keep her "reads" straight as she puts me as scum in her reas list but the third quote clearly shows she has me at null. The first quote betrays her as well, town-mara sees this player list and jumps at the chance to get to figure out all these people she knows.

2. At least two, and potentially all three, of Ceph-Orc-Ffery are town.

Look at the third post again. Why does scum-mara phrase things this way? It's an attempt to press the reset button on the quickly melting "omg cabd is such good scum fear him" paranoia icebergs. Why would she have to do this? Because the three people that play into that issue the most are all starting to townread me. This also explains demotivation as scum, all the strong players are town and she's not thinking her team has an awesome shot if those names link up.

3. Brian Skies is town.

The fourth post is NOT an interaction with a scum buddy for mara-scum. Not to mention, he's not the type as scum to instigate that sort of ITT talk.

4. Cephrir
7. fferyllt
10. Cabd
18. orcinus_theoriginal

^this is my "paragon of town" block at the moment.

20. Konowa
14. Brian Skies
19. Saki

Round out the list of solid town candidates.


These 7 names are scary as fuck if I'm drawing scum against it. Hell, even if one of the above is wrong, it's still fucking scary.

given the above posts (spoilered) can you explain why you chose Brian to cop?

[fferyllt]

put my question in the spoiler. :/

Given those two posts you made on day 1, can you explain why Brian is who you chose to cop?

[fferyllt]

Sorry guys. Just trying to make sense of so many people at once. Not sure if I can handle this, but I love AW so I'm going to stick it out.

Though its interesting to note Konowa's 'sheep' on Varsoon and indecisiveness towards Marangal and myself today. Hoping to get an easy lynch in? :[

I think I'll see if I can find out what Konowa's up to.

I thought MY votes were bad. Plus, he's the only person here I'm familiar with. :/

How do you intend to go about that? Why did you think your votes were bad?

[fferyllt]

VOTE: ABR

[fferyllt]

Hey ns albert is scum come wagon him with me

Why is ABR scum for disputing that you're cop cleared?

Why is ABR scum for reasons other than that?

because he's trying to draw out someone to claim to be the amnesiac cop.

and that is what scum-ABR does.

[fferyllt]

@SSK&ffery

, what're your reads on each other?

Also

@SSK

, are you still scumreading orci? Why did you being annoyed with his play indicate that he's scummy?

I think he's town.

[fferyllt]

You know

I should be excited about liking this wagon so much

But I am not

Why aren't you excited about liking the wagon?

[fferyllt]

@STD

, can I get your read on ffery?

What is your read of STD? Of me?

[fferyllt]

I've done it before and played with him as traitor while I was scum. We however knew he was traitor so I followed his game well.

Rephrase this please

Sorry, Dutch phone-posting here.
I've played as scum in open stack the deck, he was traitor and I was role cop. I investigated him Night 1 and he turned up traitor. Therefor I was well aware of how he was playing as scum, I know his scum game. I also did meta on him to defend him from a bus I started on him.

What do you think of his play in this game?

[fferyllt]

Hey ns albert is scum come wagon him with me

Why is ABR scum for disputing that you're cop cleared?

Why is ABR scum for reasons other than that?

because he's trying to draw out someone to claim to be the amnesiac cop.

and that is what scum-ABR does.

Ffery loses townpoints for this post because that's not what Albert was doing.

What do you think he was doing, then?

[fferyllt]

SSK what are your thoughts about ABR?

Also, Brian, did you read the mafia discussion thread I linked earlier?

[fferyllt]

Ffery: Did you manage to get CABD sorted? If so, what is your read on him?

I sort Cabd by interaction, mostly, so I still feel a little shaky about him. I really liked the way he came out early on day 1 with a wave and a good guess about my character. He did that as town in a previous uPick we played, though iirc he guessed wrong about the character I picked/got in that one and I consequently didn't see the wave for what it was. But, as Ceph pointed out in our neighborhood, he'd probably have played that precisely the same way if he had gotten the info from a scumbuddy in our neighborhood.

His play around the data coming into his neighborhood looks town to me. Investigating Brian isn't something I think he'd ordinarily do. I'm reserving judgement on that given his comments about having a very limited range of choices and his promise to come clean(er) in mass claim, when/if that happens.

Anyway, I think he's town. I'll revisit as I get more data to think about.

[fferyllt]

I think he's town.

Any particular reason why?

He tries harder as town, and he's more paranoid as town. He particularly tries harder as town in Nati games. I think he relies on his reputation as a chronic lurker as scum.

It worries me a little that he's not more suspicious of me, but he misread me totally in the last game we played, which was a newbie that Nati modded. We both replaced into that game on day 1 iirc. I don't count the Mafia on the Air mini because 1) he knew I was a mason and 2) he was a non-present player (not even on the player list) in a bastard game.

What is your read of STD? Of me?

Null on STD.
My read on you is leaning scum. Can go into more detail in a little bit.

I don't have any completed games with STD. I feel like his play looks pretty town-minded so far. If he's townreading Ceph, and I think he is, then I'm a little surprised that Ceph's read of me doesn't carry any weight.

As far as your read of me, I'm kinda meh. I didn't like your predecessor much, but so far your play looks pretty solid.

As a general comment, I'm a meta-informed player who hasn't had time to do real meta dives in several months, so my play has shifted to rely more on other stuff. I think people who have played with me over those months are becoming used to seeing a different, less data-dump style of play from me.

This is a note to all. Some players already know what's been going on irl for me since this game started. To even the field I'll put this out here so everyone knows both that and maybe why I haven't been pressed or grilled much so far. I've been away from home for several months taking care of my terminally ill dad. He passed away last Wednesday after a week-long fade to black. Since then, I've been consumed by prep for his memorial service and all sorts of insane family interactions, with not a lot of time to pull my thoughts and feelings about my dad out and study them. That's calming down, hence my increased presence, but over the next couple weeks I'm probably not going to be my usual game self.

I'm not asking for sympathy. I think my play will stand on its own and continue to be alignment indicative as the game progresses. So, guys, do your stuff and sort me.

[fferyllt]

He tries harder as town, and he's more paranoid as town. He particularly tries harder as town in Nati games.

Can you give examples where you feel he's trying harder/is being more paranoid in your eyes?

The first instance was his post 179 and the way he felt like I was blowing orci's interaction with BPC out of proportion. That whole interaction felt like he was doing his "usual" paranoia push with me, which was going to piss me right off after that newbie game. But it's been measured, and I think it should be if he's town given our recent games. He has recent-ish experience with scum-me, and in fact the last game where I was scum with him it was as my hydra with orci. It's time for the paranoia from that game to recede and for his reads of me to be more reason-based IMO.

His push on notsci, though IMO wrong, held together in terms of his reasoning.

I like that SSK pushed Cabd for his reads on us when he said he was going to make us sort each other.

221 is a good observation, though on its own I would be kinda squinty eyed because it's the sort of thing he could say genuinely as scum.

I think he relies on his reputation as a chronic lurker as scum.

Would you classify his play during D2 as not lurking?[/quote]

For him? The activity level isn't worrisome yet.

He was quite active for him on day 1, and active early day 2. He's lurky now, but he mentioned school stuff, and this is a holiday week. We'll see how things progress, but I'm not concerned atm.

[fferyllt]

@ffery, so him questioning you so much early on in the game is a pretty ordinary thing for him to do from his meta?

His recent town meta was to just decide I'm scum and proceed from there. This feels more like his earlier approaches with me prior to the selkies scum game, where he'd try to figure me out.

[fferyllt]

Orci what do you think a neotank lynch will accomplish?

[fferyllt]

ffery it makes me doubt I'm right about my reads

how so?

[fferyllt]

@ffery: Albert was arguing with Orci over his conftown status. He wasn't trying to draw out anything. I agree with him because the Orci resupt isn't verified and seems a little sketchy. Regardless, I still think Orci is town.

I read the discussion thread you provided earlier. I still think Alberts town. Why are you scumreading him?

resupt?

Partly because he feels so much more effortful than he has in prior games.

One thing though, and I need to go back and look, is that I remember him not really launching any sort of defense or refutation of the reasons people were voting him in those town games. He just kept saying "X" is scum or "Y" is scum with fairly lightweight reasons. It felt odd, and off, but he was town. With limited meta, my model may suck, but I have the idea he plays more effectively as scum than he does as town. Which is what's freaking me out here. There's more substance here than in prior games.

I do think there's something to my concerns, especially if you go back and iso him in the game he referenced in the MD thread. He expressed scepticism to pull out more info from potential PRs. Here, the potential amnesiac cop is two layers removed from what's being posted in the game thread. Pushing the supposedly cleared player could be (yeah, could be, not a really strong indictment) about garnering reactions to see who defends him now.

[fferyllt]

Result.

Did you look at the games I linked? He's generally proactive and he likes to bandwagon his scumreads.

I haven't yet, and probably won't get a chance to meta with scrutiny before tonight.

I think you're way off with your Albert rolefishing concerns. You even admit the amnesiac cop is two layers removed and I think it's because you're making more out of it than what's actually there.

Yes, it is two layers removed. So as scum, how do you dig for that? I think you do it by what ABR has done with orci. But, his behavior fits the narrative you're seeing and relating as well. I'm tempted to just bow to your meta experience, though what you've seen from town-ABR doesn't sound at all like what I've seen in the games he and I played.

What are your other scumreads? You're not getting Albert and I'll whiteknight and chainsaw the hell out of him if I have to.

My persons of concern currently are SMP, Konowa, and to some extent BPR and Saki. Cheerstory inherited a horrible looking slot, and I'm reading along on the links orci is digging up. I want to believe that Saki's turning over a new leaf but I have a good deal of skepticism that isn't going to be shushed by lack of followthrough. Lynx looked terrible as well, but I'm going to sit on that and watch how her replacement develops.

Maybe there is two scum among those. There are other players I see suspicion swirling in the game thread, particularly bookitty. I've liked his posts, though. When I have time, that's another meta research project.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE

[fferyllt]

Yes, I have that slot about in line with my SMP scumread. Although I'm not really interested in wagoning someone that isn't in this game anymore. Regarding SMP, I've seen people suspect SMP, but I'm curious as to why the wagon has never taken off. Nothing he's done looks town-indicative for me and if he's scum, I'm wondering if his buddies are just holding onto that read to make themselves look better down the line.

Maybe so. It may be that there's just always something shinier happening in the thread. I feel like sometimes that's what happens with my also-ran scumreads that never quite bubble to the top of my concerns list.

I'm not going to put my vote back down until I've had some time to review.

Re the not wanting me to follow your read, meh. You're the one who threatened to whiteknight and chainsaw over it.

[fferyllt]

wait, what about grapes looked horrible?

two fluffposts iirc.

[fferyllt]

Maybe so. It may be that there's just always something shinier happening in the thread. I feel like sometimes that's what happens with my also-ran scumreads that never quite bubble to the top of my concerns list.

I'm not going to put my vote back down until I've had some time to review.

Re the not wanting me to follow your read, meh. You're the one who threatened to whiteknight and chainsaw over it.

Shiny things are a thing and they do tend to pop up everywhere.

Yes, I feel strongly against this wagon. But that doesn't mean you have to bow down to me or my reasoning.

If I still feel like he's scum after that review we'll be having words.

[fferyllt]

Chet: ffery is probably the only person on the ABR wagon I'm not townreading (okay I'm not really sure about notscience at this point). She bothered me a little with some of her handling of Varsoon yesterday, but I haven't put a lot of thought towards her D2, other than I realized she was one of the people on Varsoon that I didn't suspect of being town. I've been meaning to look back and see if I could better quantify what bothered me.

I'm curious how you're coming along with this.

[fferyllt]

Konowa, you're kinda scaring me this game.

[fferyllt]

I'm going to sleep.

Maybe I'll make more sense in the morning.

[fferyllt]

I'm not going back to albert until I have time to read those games brian suggested. And I don't know what the fuck about cabd and I don't have the bandwidth right now to figure him out.

So, I'm not willing to vote either of them RIGHT THIS MINUTE. Which is what you asked me in the neighborhood.

[fferyllt]

You asked me who I was willing to vote in the neighborhood? Which is where this bullshit started iirc.

[fferyllt]

I misunderstood you. You asked me where my head was at and I thought you were asking me where I'd push/vote.

[fferyllt]

welp. if there was any doubt at all about your alignment, this reaction nails it.

[fferyllt]

Today is my first effort to get my head back into mafia since my dad passed away. It could be going better, but I am making progress.

That's all I'm going to say.

[fferyllt]

konowa is someone I hope I can sort pretty easily.

That's all.

You know, if it was pretty much anyone besides you throwing this at me, my laptop lid would already be down and I'd be trying to get to sleep.

I own my play. If you want to push my lynch, go ahead.

[fferyllt]

Because I should have something by now and I don't. I townread him pretty easily in our first game together.

My main concern with him is that he could be floating along for real life reasons and I've been waiting for more from him and not seeing it.

[fferyllt]

Your treatment of the cheetory case was lazy as fuck and a "ehhhhh i don't reaallyyy feel it and instead of commenting on this case i'm now going to say something completely irrelevant about undercurrents and cadre effects and then end it all with 'well i'm not quite sure what all this means but...yeah i'm going to go scumread SMP'"

any explanation at all for this?

Like I said in the neighborhood, I think it's pure lack of comprehension on my part. Ceph seems to get it. Hence my thinking I really need to go to sleep and stop trying to work on this tonight.

[fferyllt]

you also haven't said anything about saki this entire game

This is false. You need to read my iso. I liked his explanation for why he's more involved this game, but I really don't like that he's done such a fade since that. And I know that scum-saki is more active and involved than town-saki. So the whole trajectory of activity tweaks on a lot of different levels.

[fferyllt]

- I read Cheet's ISO and asked myself "does this look objectively scummy?" And I compared it to the hedgy dreck he posted in the offsite scum game you linked. From a tonal perspective, his play this game doesn't feel like that one to me. He was manipulative in that game in a way that you can be when you know the other players' styles and weaknesses well.

My point in that ramble was that the tonal markers not being there doesn't mean he's town. I get that you're looking at much more specific behaviors, but I just can't get my head around what you're saying well enough to follow it. Not tonight. If you want a sheep you can have my vote. If you want my understanding, you'll have to wait. I thought you wanted the latter, which is why I didn't offer to sheep.

[fferyllt]

then I'm done for the night as well.

[fferyllt]

I don't have time to develop cases. I haven't developed an honest to god case on another player in months. I'm playing way more seat of the pants than you realize I guess.

I'll put together a reads list tomorrow. You'll see what I mean.

[fferyllt]

orcinus do me the courtesy of metaing my recent games if you haven't already done so.

Several weeks ago Cabd told me I'd lost my mojo. He's right. I hope I'll get it back, or get something different that works ok in its place.

Anyway, I'll probably post my reads in the neighborhood because some of them aren't ready for prime time. That may be the only neighborhood post I make until this is resolved.

[fferyllt]

I'll try to make this short, but I'll be around today and tomorrow I think.

VOTE: bipolarChemist I still don't like you especially with the flip.

I feel like you would have said this with however he flipped :/

No not really. If var flipped scum I couldn't see you putting a fair amount of trust in another persons read in order to bus someone.

I meant I don't see why you can't share your read on Mara ('there' as in Mara) in this thread, even if it's related to interactions in your neighborhood (except for role-related stuff, I'm not interested in that right now).

As I said, the reason is gonna sound stupid but it's related to what I know and the scum hopefully don't know.

get off the neotank wagon i'm sorry. i missed something important earlier. we actually know the source of the neotank.

Um, am I delving into bad territory if I ask how do you know? a simple yes or no will suffice.

Anyways, I'm interested in an SMP and albert lynch right now. ABR's mara read I think is awful, as it's mostly concerned with picking at mara's bad logic about rather than why she's actually scum. Considering how he has been overtly critical of the other cases on her, I don't see why not being able to prove her towniness with her ability should affect his read. And I'm getting the feeling that him reiterating how replacing out isn't a town tell is equivocating it with being scummy. Just because you can imagine a situation that mara can replace out as scum isn't the same as proving it. The point about his skepticism about orci is unnecessary I agree with too. Until we get a scum messenger flip I don't think that discussion is helpful and just adds unnecessary wifom.

For smp other than most of his posts are lacking in anything I think is meaningful content his doubt of the claims on brian I dislike. It's just doubting the cop without any evaluation of cabds other posts. I don't see any sign of SMP scum reading abr either so smp's criticism of brian derailing the abr lynch feels like looking for things to pick at.

These two wagons have my spiritual votes, I'll reevaluate my non town reads in a bit. I think I'm liking cabd and cheet for pointing out that lynching the neotank probably won't be fruitful.

Your SMP observations are kinda where my inarticulate head was at last night. But, after some sleep and coffee, I'm questioning this mostly because I'm thinking about my scum play and I don't think I would go up against an investigation result I knew to be true because the player investigated wasn't on my team. It feels slightly more like the kind of push that a paranoid townie would make.

I played with scum-SMP in a recent mini game. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=46298

It doesn't feel the same. When I factor in time and additional experience, I'm left with a pretty weak-ish "maybe".

[fferyllt]

@orci

,
i) How long have you been scumreading ffery?
ii) Can you make this case on ffery more accessible? What's the difference between her townplay and scumplay that makes this so obviously a scumgame for her?

@ffery

,
You implied that orci jumping on you was indicative of his alignment in #2406. How are you reading him now?

quite, quite, unequivocally town. I was townreading him before. I was townreading him on day 1, though I had a few flashes of paranoia.

If orci is scum here, then what he's doing is reprehensible. It's a place I can't see him ever going intentionally, because this is just a game. I feel very sure it's coming from town paranoia, not a scum wincon.

[fferyllt]

Some players say all's fair when you're scum. And some players play that way. Others don't. I believe orci is the latter.

[fferyllt]

Cabd has to be here to interact with. I have to be here to interact with him.

I interacted with him a fair bit during day 1. I don't think our paths have crossed day 2 and I don't think he's gotten back to this game since his cross country travels.

[fferyllt]

If orci is scum here, then what he's doing is reprehensible. It's a place I can't see him ever going intentionally, because this is just a game. I feel very sure it's coming from town paranoia, not a scum wincon.

this would be difficult for you to write as scum, wouldn't it

I don't know. I don't think I'd be willing to put down that strong of a read as scum.

To me, your cop clear or whatever it is doesn't even come into play because you're town by play and by motivation.

[fferyllt]

right but you haven't made any effort to call him out

I've been back in the game for about 24 hours. Go back and look at the posts I made when I returned. I am trying to step back into in-the-moment because that's where I like to develop reads.

I don't think you're doing it intentionally, but you're closing down avenues where I can spontaneously do things and have them come from

my

mindset, not yours. It's pissing me off, because if you keep it up it's going to be impossible to just do my thing in a way that you can read as town.

[fferyllt]

whoa ok your MO as scum has been to town me pretty hard on single-digit pages and not reevaluating

you're lying about that aspect of your meta

iirc that meta is nearly two years old, and it was coming off the first game where I towned you on page 1. I don't recall being scum against town you since then. What games are you talking about? And you're ignoring various signs that I had fleeting concerns. Or maybe those concerns are all in the neighborhood we can't see any more.

[fferyllt]

Also, I was suggesting you look at my recent meta to see if I was consistently doing the stuff you're accusing me of not doing in this game, like building cases and staying hyperfocused on my scum reads.

In fact, go back and look at tales of you and my reads of mastin and AP.

[fferyllt]

Are you telling me to use tales of you as a towngame marker to compare this game to?

because i'm pretty sure this game ends up in the scumpile if i do that

Actually Mafia on the Air, Serum and Steel II and a couple recent newbies are more indicative of my current town meta and how I play under irl stress and lack of time. but the stuff you're looking for from me in this game, I don't think was significantly present in tales of you and you're familiar with that game.

[fferyllt]

He did take a few stances, but mostly lurked his way out of being the day 1 lynch. A townie who was playing kinda slap-dash wound up lynched instead.

[fferyllt]

Ceph, what do you make of ABR's claim?

You're asking the kinds of questions I ask when I'm scum. I get the impression like you're feeling around the edges looking for lynch appetite or something.

What are you going to do with the answer?

[fferyllt]

I asked because Ceph naked voted ABR and wanted to understand his read better.
I ask questions as town or scum.

Did you notice that our entire neighborhood piled on at that point? I think it was the first time in the game that we acted in unison.

Asking questions is part of the game as either alignment. It's easier to ask questions than to write analysis. Town does both, usually.

Please just make the case on me because I'm getting pretty fucking annoyed at being softpushed like this.

beats the hell out of being hardpushed.

[fferyllt]

I would rather be hardpushed and be able to respond to suspicion on me.

Did you notice that our entire neighborhood piled on at that point?

No.

It's easier to ask questions than to write analysis. Town does both, usually.

Do you think me asking questions is just posturing to try and look town? Insulting to my scum game if so.

I've looked at your scumgame on the other site. I think it would be difficult for you to use the same tactics in a game where you don't know the other players well.

[fferyllt]

It's also difficult for me to apply the same tactics as town in a game I'm replacing into which is super convoluted.

If you're town, I wouldn't expect the same tactics as your scum game on that site. :/

[fferyllt]

I would rather be hardpushed and be able to respond to suspicion on me.

Did you notice that our entire neighborhood piled on at that point?

No.

It's easier to ask questions than to write analysis. Town does both, usually.

Do you think me asking questions is just posturing to try and look town? Insulting to my scum game if so.

I've looked at your scumgame on the other site. I think it would be difficult for you to use the same tactics in a game where you don't know the other players well.

I was talking about why I'm not surprised to see your full scumgame toolkit here in this game if you're scum.

It's also difficult for me to apply the same tactics as town in a game I'm replacing into which is super convoluted.

You reply that you can't use those (scum) tactics in this game because it's extremely complicated. My thought here is "Why would you make excuses for not using your full scum toolkit if you're TOWN?" Hence my reply:

It's also difficult for me to apply the same tactics as town in a game I'm replacing into which is super convoluted.

If you're town, I wouldn't expect the same tactics as your scum game on that site. :/

[fferyllt]

ffery, how am I scaring you?

Your lack of participation and very little evidence that you're developing reads scares me. I know your style can be somewhat minimalistic, but I had no trouble developing a townread of you in Kagami's neuroscience mini normal. There's very little here from you in this game upon which to base a read.

[fferyllt]

You're asking the kinds of questions I ask when I'm scum. I get the impression like you're feeling around the edges looking for lynch appetite or something.

How are the questions I've asked any worse than the questions that STD has been asking in the last few pages of his ISO?

It feels like a different focus, mostly. His questions appear to be about sorting the person he's asking the questions of. Some of your questions (not all of them, but in particular your questions about players who could be credible lynches today) seem to be more about gauging lynchability of the players you're asking about, not sorting the players you're asking the questions of.