NY 177: Simple Complexity (GAME OVER: Scum Wins!)

[shaddowez]

Present and accounted for!

/confirmed

[shaddowez]

can i start voting people yet

Only yourself

[shaddowez]

So, initial thoughts - anyone whose name can be abbreviated to PerV must be town

Since the group of us from our last game seem to be voting for each other,
VOTE: Aero

I'll be going through the pages of stuff I managed to miss is less than 12 hours and (hopefully) posting more content in a bit.

[shaddowez]

With absolutely nothing else to go on, seemed like as good of a reason as anybody else has used so far. VOTE: Elyse for tunneling onto a RVS vote.

Considering she only posted once asking about this (at the time, I realize there have been more since), why are you claiming she's tunneling?

Town- Gameplay, tn

maybe town- TSO, Elyse

NS

- Have any scum reads yet, or just town?

[shaddowez]

Townreads are preferable to scumreads early on imo.

why are you answering his question towards me

Why aren't you answering my question towards you?

But when you see an Innocent Child claim, maybe the first reaction if you're town is to vote them for the heck of it.

Why would town vote IC for the heck of it? That would literally be playing against wincon. The

only

thing I could think of is if it's within hours of deadline with no solid lynch, where there's a chance you won't get a modconfirm. Otherwise, why not vote people you think are scum until you're confirmed or not?

I'm generally against policy lynches, and at this point can't say I feel any different.

I've been doing more scumhunting than 75% of the players this game.

Could you point out where? I don't completely disagree with your scumreads right now, but it's still not obvious to me where you are scumhunting.

Hey, Alina, can you show me where reinoe's been scumhunting?

After you do that, I'll show you how to look out for leading questions.

Hey TSO, can you show me where TSO's been scumhunting? Thanks.

Attempting double day actions is foolhardy, but Town. #300 is also on the mark.

How is any sort of fakeclaim specifically town? Reaction tests are one thing, but just outright saying he's town for doing two fakeclaims in a day is just ridiculous.

Alina

- You stopped asking questions, which for you is surprising. Have any current scumreads?

[shaddowez]

Is this entire game just going to be pairs of people going at it?

I don't really have a read on Tree right now, but didn't like the double fakeclaim. However, I also don't think that should be the

only

thing people are focusing on to decide if he's scum or not. TSO seems to be making a straw man argument, which to me is making him look scummier.

notscience

, why don't you answer my questions instead of sitting on the sidelines?

[shaddowez]

Actually I am genius and I think I know the setup. Just wonderin whether to tell it or not.

Will knowing more about the setup help us find scum? I thought the object of this was to find (and kill) the scum.

How do you expect us to get out of RVS if we just keeping tooling around?

I, too, agree with this, but wonder why you are so focused on RoyalApe. A lot of people made early, random votes. And yet you didn't find anything to question in their votes? You only found RoyalApe worthy of questioning?

I completely forgot this person was in the game.

Texcat

, have anything to add since this post?

[shaddowez]

TSO seems to be making a straw man argument, which to me is making him look scummier.

Go on.

Basically the post you just quoted from Majiffy. He wasn't using Tree's gambit as his basis for calling him scum, but that's all you kept attacking him for. There was more to it, but for anybody that doesn't feel like reading through the redundant back and forth of "He's town for it" "No, he's scum for it", you were trying to make a case for Majiffy to look bad for voting Tree based on just the one factor.

[shaddowez]

That should read *solely as his basis*

[shaddowez]

Possible bad word choice on my end - I didn't mean personal attacks, I meant your arguments against him.

[shaddowez]

Holy shitballs there's a lot of posting in this game - I thought the last large I was in was bad. 10 pages in a little over 24 hours is ridiculous!

Alina

- My biggest scumreads right now (in no particular order) are TSO, RoyalApe, gameplay, and Aeronaut. I'd say that given the number of posts in the game, the three of them are providing the least amount of content in theirs, and don't seem to be doing anything to garner informatoin that could be helping town.

I'm having flashbacks to the Alinskies argument with a lot of the back-and-forths on here, thinking that most of them are town on town.

I didn't like tree's double fakeclaim, but didn't think that was specifically scummy. The fact that he could be using it as a godfather gambit makes me want to reread his ISO and look closer at thim though.

Farside

- in 4 posts you went from asking why tree was scummy to suggesting a tree/texcat team. What made you think tree was scummy all of a sudden?

[shaddowez]

Alright, there need to be more hours in the day just so I can keep up with this game. I'm going to work on the 30 or so pages I've missed, but if anyone would like to direct any questions or comments at me in the meantime, I'll try to address them.

[shaddowez]

@Shaddowez Why are you scumreading gameplay and TSO? I can see the other two, but I'm not getting any scumvibes from TSO/gameplay. What are your thoughts on OkaPoka? I'm trying to avoid tunneling again so if you think this is town VS town please help. ALSO ALINSKIIES <3 Didn't notice the farside catch actually, that's... interesting.

I'm really not liking gameplay, but I'm thinking more and more that it's newbtown than scum. It'd be a hell of a reach to be making a gambit out of the mountainous setup and multiball questions to Wake. It could be a play, but I'm not going to get into that WIFOM here.

TSO has done very little in the ways of scumhunting, and most of his posts are full of random crap, occasionally opposing what somebody else said, but not really backing up why he's arguing against it. In his argument with Majiffy about Tree, he completely disregarded the fact(until the very end) that Majiffy wasn't voting Tree purely on the double fakeclaim. Every argument for Tree being town was based solely on the two gambits. The first third of his posts are bashing/arguing for a Reinoe vote, and when I asked him to provide evidence of him scumhunting, he links me to

one

post which is probably his strongest post (which is sad), and it's yet again him just saying Reinoe is scum.

Spoiler: TSO's Straw Man

Attempting double day actions is foolhardy, but Town

He tried one, it blew up in his face, he then tried another anyway. That's town.

Well, Majiffy, I'm arguing that after one going wrong, scum-him wouldn't be confident enough to do another, and your counter-argument appears to be "No." I don't feel the need to respond to "No."

I don't really have a read on Oka right now. Most of his content was against gameplay due to the stupid "bannable info" bullshit. It seems a bit like tunneling, but don't think I can really hold it against him. He did mention other people occasionally during that, so his switch to Tree wasn't out of the blue or I would have seen that as scummy.

[shaddowez]

Texcat mentions a lot about tree in the post I quoted but vote for aero for an unknown reason.
I typically see that from newbscum. Where you mention a player you don't like but vote the other and the person you have more issue with is your scum buddy.

That didn't happen in the four posts you made. You also didn't quote that in your vote for him, you quoted something completely different. Also:

Can you explain why you asked this:

So yeah

he's town

moving on

I get that Gameplay's theory on a mountainous game makes it look like he is vanilla town. And I've never played with him before, but isn't it worth considering that he's scum who made this whole thing up to look like vanilla town?

Did you have a scum read on gameplay I missed?

I certainly don't have a town read on Gameplay. And so I disagreed with NotScience's dismissal of him as town. Is this just another example of your hyperfocus on me?

I've talked about more then you, if you read the game at all.
How about your other scum reads, since all I saw was a follow elyse and not town read on gameplay.

Vote: tn

Hypocrisy much?

[shaddowez]

Oka

- This could be a phrasing thing, but do you find him scummy, just not "much of a scum read"?

[shaddowez]

While I'm going through this, could someone please explain to me what a chainsaw defense is? I've seen a few of you use the term, and have no clue what it means.

[shaddowez]

That was rough, but I think I'm caught up now. While I appreciate being defended based on the fact my vote was put on in RVS, I'm actually happy leaving my vote where it is right now. I don't like the softclaim, there was absolutely no need for it.

Voting someone you think is town is against wincon. I hate the fact that NS is doing it too, but at least he has a reason for doing it other than "He's being useless, screw it". That worked out well for town last game with HS and others. Oh wait, you were SK and didn't care who got lynched!

Also, if you're town you should never be willing to "accept your lynch". You should be fighting tooth and nail to figure out who scum is and actually get them lynched.

[shaddowez]

Softclaims aren't made cuz there's a need. They are meant to be skipped over and revealed later as OMG that makes sense. A good portion of my arrogant gibberish catches the scum like that. Claim my role. Nuhhuh bitch. I softclaimed first.

Crumbs, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Softclaims come off more as "Don't lynch me, you'll regret it, but I'm not going to tell you whyyyyyyy", which could turn into absolutely nothing. What about this post comes off as "meant to be skipped over"?

Read. Between. The. Lines.

I also thought ppl if town would fight tooth and nail but fighting tooth and nail is actually more likely to get people lynched. So I say bullshit here are your scums ty goodnight.

So are you saying town should never try to not get lynched? Also, I said fighting to figure out who is scum and get them lynched, not just fight against your own lynch. While similar, they are not the same.

[shaddowez]

that moment where I of all people am the person it's been longest since they've posted

Catching up now blegh.

It's an alternate universe! Also, good luck.

[shaddowez]

Holy shit, this game is getting messier and messier.

UNVOTE:

I still don't like Aero just yet, but want to give some more time to look into things. Have to figure out if I believe the roleclaim, especially since it's still possible to be a scum role.

Titus

- Are you saying you don't believe the claim because Aero said it's "sort of lame"? And what about that claim was enough for you to completely reverse your read on Aero, enough so that you didn't even care if you hammered?

Gameplay

- What the fuck are you even doing this game? I've seen you throw out a couple of reads lists with little to no information; have a shitfest about "bannable" info which was a waste of bandwidth and every single player in this game's time; vote for 6 different people, most of whom you gave maybe 2 lines about why, and only one of which you weren't the only vote on; and you've defended Aero based on a claim in a neighborhood! Out of 123 posts, I think maybe 10 of them have content that's actually worth dealing with. There have been numerous times in mafia games where I haven't liked what's going on, but you're the first person to actually piss me off.

[shaddowez]

@Shaddowez and Gameplay

What do you think about TN?

Definitely getting a different sense of playstyle from NY175, but he was a hyrda there so I'm not sure how comparable it is.

I have a mostly null/very slight scumread on him right now. Most of his posts contain a lot of words but very little content, and even more lack original thoughts. I really don't like the PL pushes, but that again doesn't read as alignment indicative to me, especially since there were multiple people pushing for the same thing. I agree with his read on NS, but can't say the same for most of his other reads.

tn

- Considering how much you seem to not like Elyse, why is she below both Titus and ns on your priority list? Also....

Townreads are preferable to scumreads early on imo.

Reinoe
alina
T S O
notscience
Shaddowez
Elyse

These people are basically conf town and if you don't like it you can just shut the fuck up because your opinion is invalid.

No, over half of this list is scummy, Alina is the only person I'd feel safe considering conftown.

High Priority > Titus > NotScience > Elyse / Tree > Texcat > Low Priority

You've provided a concise list of your scumreads but not your townreads, even though you think townreads are preferable. Care to give thoughts on your townreads?

[shaddowez]

this whole discussion is just potentially hugely incorrect setup speculation that is not only distracting from scumhunting but can lead to a string of methodical mislynches that have little to do with actual scumreads.

I completely agree with this. It's the same way I felt about the bannable info bullshit that took up pages of posts for no reason.

[shaddowez]

Meant to say in my read on tn I have a similar read on Oka. He hasn't done too much, and most of his posts/content was based on the gameplay issue. I don't blame Oka for pushing gameplay regarding that, but the rest of his posts and votes are extremely weak

[shaddowez]

tn

- Mirhawk has asked you a question in two separate posts, both of which you have posted after and not answered. If your next post doesn't include an answer, you're getting my vote.

P-Edit: Psyche

- Why is that?

[shaddowez]

I'll agree with that, but what's your read on him?

Gameplay

- You never addressed this post by Psyche:

Ok I am going to have nightmares now.
Tree wtf just wtf.
Psyche pls commit suicide now.
Pls pls pls.
Leaving this before my eyes start bleeding and my brain melts.

why are you so confident in your aeroread

[shaddowez]

This game is moving so quickly and is so disorganized that I would probably be fine lynching most players.

But vote texcat.

You haven't given any reasons for voting texcat since Post #772. Most of your other posts regarding him are "Vote texcat", which is no better than most of Oka's posts of "Why isn't Tree dead yet?". You also said in that same post that Oka can die too, and yet you're trying to get people to vote texcat when there's already an Oka wagon rolling. Can you explain to me why?

Bullshit. Either TSO or PV figured it out and told you.

Why do you think Pere is scum? I just ISO'd him and it doesn't look like he's doing too much, and hasn't posted anything since saying he needed to catch up, but nothing came out as exceptionally scummy to me.

[shaddowez]

In either case I do think Aero's scum, which is why I'm curious about this cop business. Especially seeing as how you're the one who suggested that a investigative role would be a counterclaim to Gunsmith.

I'm not going to step on your toes on whatever it is you're doing, but I want to know if there's actually a chance that whatever you're doing can start the fire under Aero back up?

I'm going to piggyback onto Mirhawk here. I'm not

convinced

Aero's scum, but I definitely don't believe his claim makes him conftown, and I'm not against his lynch if more can be done to prove it's a good idea D1.

[shaddowez]

Wouldn't that require him living past toDay, and giving us a wrong result, which is in and of itself only confirmable by lynching?

[shaddowez]

Thinking about it that way, that gives him at least two Nights to be alive. I'm not certain enough that he's town to let him live that long.

VOTE: Aero

[shaddowez]

Your initial question was if he was lying, which I answered. As for your new point, that depends on two factors, neither of which I'm really comfortable with.

1) What type of investigative role we have, and how badly he's lying. If he's a Godfather or an SK, a regular cop may not help. If he's fakeclaiming and have an actual town gunsmith, it won't help if he's a Mafia Doctor (or possibly an SK, not sure about that). If we have a role cop, still won't help to know if he's town or scum.
2) Whatever investigative role we do have will have to out themselves on D2 in order to clear one person. If we have a doctor we can try playing Follow the Cop, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if scum has a RB if we have an investigative role

and

a doctor.

[shaddowez]

Ninja'd by Titus on point 2.

[shaddowez]

Can someone give me a reason why Aeronaut is not getting votes?

Because lynching an uncc-d investigative role day one is roughly as idiotic as my general play has been over the past 5-10 pages or so.

There may be duplicate roles, and they can be either Town or Scum.

How would a cc necessarily help? Even if we have another gunsmith, Aero could be town in which case we're in the same position we are now. And if there's not another gunsmith, no other role can be considered a cc since there could be more than one investigative role.

[shaddowez]

Correction - should read "Aero and the other gunsmith could be town"

[shaddowez]

I might be able to buy that. Who's your proposed lynch for D1 then? Or did you want to wait for when you do your reads list tomorrow?

[shaddowez]

I actually rethought my theory about lynching Aero, and decided that we can lynch him D2 instead for better results, and don't need to wait for another lynch or mislynch to prove his claim.

If we lynch him today, we get absolutely zero information. If he's town it's a mislynch with no reads whatsoever, and probably the worst possible scenario. If he's scum and we mislynch a townie, we screwed up, but if he had never claimed there was a chance of that happening anyway. Since he hardclaimed and investigative PR, if he's town then scum will most likely kill him. If he is still alive on D2, he can tell us what he did N1 and what result he got. We then lynch him to see how he flips. If he told us he got no result and is town, he most likely got RBed/JKed. That gets us info that scum has an RB/JK, along with the fact that unless they have more than one, they wasted it on a GS instead of any other investigative role we may have, or a doctor, SK, or Vig if we have any. (I say wasted since a GS can hurt town by finding vigs and cops). If he gives us a result and flips town GS, that is someone to strongly consider, and should elicit a claim if need be. If he gives us a result and flips scum GS, we should seriously look into whoever he named. If he flips and isn't a GS, it was still just one day that we wasted.

This doesn't require any other PR outing themselves, and actually gives us the possibility of gaining us info without letting Aero just slide by for days on end. If we do have another investigative role and they decide to look into Aero and reveal on D2, that's on them but not necessary.

UNVOTE:

[shaddowez]

Alright, since I'd rather see Aero lynched D2 than D1, I'm pretty sure I know where I want my vote to lie:

VOTE: notscience

He is posting a

lot

(he has almost 250 posts), but is posting almost no content. That's just about 10 pages of worthless nonsense. A good portion of his posts are one liners, and a decent number of them are just emoticons (which he admits in Post #1591). He's trying to appear active in the game without doing much, and his votes have either been purely sheeping or on the Aero wagon. His sheep vote is even on someone he believes to be town just to get help lynching someone he believes to be scum on another day, which if he is town is against wincon.

His first dozen posts are useless, randomly reading people as town for BS reasons. I understand this is RVS, but just adds in to what becomes random posting for no reason.
Post #231 - Naked vote on tree
A bunch more posts of absolutely no content, except to admit he's just sheeping Majiffy
Posts Post #715 - Post #721 have slightly useful info as they provide his reads on a few people, but with no content to back them up.
More useless posts, and then moved his vote back to Tree, who he admittedly thinks is town, just to get Majiffy to help get a lynch on D2.

I told you I have my own opinions

None of which have been thoroughly expressed as of yet.

Yes shit

I'm about to explain why my reads are better than everyone rlses

I mean give a readslist

(I really mean the former)

Readslist finally came almost 100 posts later with no evidence to back up his reads on most people.

Post #1140 actually includes some content and reasoning, but it's the first in over 100 posts to really do so, and is also after the Aero wagon was already rolling.
Post #1253 has some more content against Aero. I'm still of the Aero is most likely scum mindset, so this may actually seem to be more meaningful than it actually is because of that.

Basically nothing but fluff posts since that.

[shaddowez]

ns is defined by fluff

That's not really a defense...if he's not doing anything useful, it's not in town's best interest to keep him alive.

[shaddowez]

That's great...speaking of which, you never answered this post from me:

I might be able to buy that. Who's your proposed lynch for D1 then? Or did you want to wait for when you do your reads list tomorrow?

[shaddowez]

@Mod

- I'm going to be V/LA until 9/2. I will most likely be around either Sunday or Monday, but since I'm not sure going to put the day I'll definitely be back (Tuesday)

[shaddowez]

I have struggled reading all of the posts and I believe Titus when she says (over and over and over again) that she

knows

that Aero is going to flip scum. If I find out that she lied about knowing, my next vote will be easy.

VOTE: Aeronaut

The above post is really fucking scummy.

Phone post.

I agree with this. People use

know

all the time in mafia, especially when it's based on gut. Considering it's D1 and the setup said it was a daystart, unless he's assuming Titus has a day role there's no way for her to absolutely

know

.

[shaddowez]

Just got back from my V/LA, and am not sure what the Hell I came back in the middle of. Going to try and read the case on texcat to see where I stand on that one.

Wait. So if Aero is a gunsmith that's actually likely because it would be useful for a/the scumteam to have someone immune to being checked by him. This didn't even cross my mind. I feel tripped out right now

A GS can also be used against town since it can find cops and vigs. Even if there is a mafia doctor, that wouldn't lend much weight to Aero being town for me.

[shaddowez]

From the wiki (which could be wrong, but it's the best place I know of for info):

The Gunsmith is an information role that can target a player at Night to learn if they have a gun in flavor. Members of the Mafia (that are not Doctors), Cops, FBI Agents, Vigilantes, other Gunsmiths, Paranoid Gun Owners, etc. all have guns in traditional flavor. Notably, Serial Killers and Doctors do not have guns.

[shaddowez]

I love how people call me a lurker when I've been V/LA for the past 4 days. I don't generally have a high post count, and yet it's still in the range of some that aren't being called lurkers. However, I digress.

I read through tex's ISO, and while there are one or two posts that I wasn't fond of, he doesn't reek of scum to me. The Aegor wagon, however, I can get behind. He continues to push the texcat lynch with little reasoning, most of them time referring people to check his ISO. He's been tunneling since the beginning, and hasn't provided much to the game.

VOTE: Aegor

[shaddowez]

I love how people call me a lurker when I've been V/LA for the past 4 days. I don't generally have a high post count, and yet it's still in the range of some that aren't being called lurkers. However, I digress.

I read through tex's ISO, and while there are one or two posts that I wasn't fond of, he doesn't reek of scum to me. The Aegor wagon, however, I can get behind. He continues to push the texcat lynch with little reasoning, most of them time referring people to check his ISO. He's been tunneling since the beginning, and hasn't provided much to the game.

VOTE: Aegor

these are bad reasons to vote for aegor
vote for aegor because muffinman reads him as scum

Are you reading muffin as town?

[shaddowez]

Titus, does that depend on how the mod runs it? According to the wiki, there doesn't seem to be a difference: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gunsmith
It sounds more like a yes/no to me than anything else.

[shaddowez]

Why the fuck not, it doesn't look like anything else is going to happen before deadline

VOTE: texcat

[shaddowez]

I don't think he's scum either, but I think a mislynch is better than a no lynch at this point. At least we'll get

some

information, and not another 100+ pages of arguing the same bullshit

[shaddowez]

HAMMA HAMMA HAMMA

Not exactly - you were already voting for him

[shaddowez]

I think there's one still needed, because Marquis' vote was already on texcat as well

[shaddowez]

As far as I'm aware, it was not. The Aero/gameplay neighborhood was outed, and then the one you told us about. No definite number has been given

[shaddowez]

I was at a renn faire all day, and did not expect to come back to this close a lynch. I was good for a D2 lynch on Aero yesterDay, so I'm stating intent to hammer Aero tomorrow, but really want an answer on why he chose to investigate Titus. If Aero flips town GS, tomorrow's lynch will be a no-brainer. Has anyone but gameplay confirmed Aero claimed in their QT? If Aero comes back as scum, it'd be interesting to know why gameplay was the only one backing up his claim.

P-Edit

I guess my intent is null now

[shaddowez]

Also, the reason I was going to vote was not purely based on the fact I wanted a lynch yesterDay, but also because of Titus' claim of a false result.

[shaddowez]

Didn't Royal just recently admit he didn't even know about the QT until recently?

[shaddowez]

oka whyyy

I don't understand this response - Oka's right. My intent to hammer tomorrow (RL, not game tomorrow) still stands.

[shaddowez]

I know he was right

i was just bored and wanted to see what would happen

Did you know your vote was already on Aero? Were you trying to stall the Day until another VC by pretending to hammer?

[shaddowez]

At this point, I actually don't think I like the PV lynch. I do have an important question, though.

Oka, what the hell do you do?

Spoiler: Oka

VOTE: pv

goodbye lurker

VOTE: notscience

pretty sure this is scum

I still don't understand what I'm lying about and why tn isn't voting me.

High Priority > Titus > NotScience > Elyse / Tree > Texcat > Low Priority

You're really making it hard to go Village People on Elyse with your nonsense. You've completely forgotten about Okra, your alleged scumread to push me because I voted someone due to a shit claim.

Seriously, voting the fake GS is a fucking towntell. Scum would shoot it or roleblock it.

uh

VOTE: pv

come out lurker

[shaddowez]

Edit: That should be "the idea of a PV lynch", since two votes doesn't exactly qualify

[shaddowez]

I hate this site sometimes, eating my posts.

Oka

: Please explain your reasons for protecting Josh, a claimed PR, night 1, and then Marquis on N2? It seems awful convenient that there were two deaths both nights, but the PR you "protected" didn't die N1 and then they did on N2 when you "protected" somebody else.

[shaddowez]

Marquis

, not sure if you meant any of that towards me or not, but I've never been for your lynch.

Also, there's another neighborhood. Me, Aegor, Oka, and Mir.

[shaddowez]

Well, Aegor

was

in it, at least.

[shaddowez]

Groups in def in 2/3

Umm....what?

[shaddowez]

Mir

, don't hate me.

Oka starts posting in thread asking if he should do a gambit and rampaging about gameplay. He suggests gambiting as a cop to take a bullet, but is unsure he wants Aegor to have heard that (at that point Aegor had been silent in the QT). He then says that he's going to claim in the QT, but not in the main thread, that he's not a cop, and asks if any of us are investigative roles. He then suggests he'll claim as a PGO to avoid a NK. He finally claims doc in the thread, and when asked about it in the QT says he's not confirming. Later he starts asking about who he should protect, and Mir suggests the following:

1) Josh B
2) A strong player

Sound familiar? Yeah, not buying Oka as town.

VOTE: Oka

[shaddowez]

if oka is the only protective role claimed with no counterclaim, oka is almost guaranteed to be town

If he's the only protective role, why is he still alive?

[shaddowez]

Titus

- Sorry if I wasn't clear. He in no way made it clear that he wanted somebody else to claim cop, it sounded like he was going to claim cop. He also thinks you are scum and fakeclaiming for town cred

[shaddowez]

I did suggest protecting Marquis...not quite sure how that's a bad thing. I also never said that Titus was a GF - Mir said something along the lines of "wouldn't it be funny if Titus was the SK", and I said "or the godfather, either way would lend weight to the bulletproof"

[shaddowez]

And actually, previous to that Mir said he didn't think she was lying, and I said I didn't either. So yeah, full stories would be nice. And in full disclosure, I say (at least once) in the QT that I think ns is scum

[shaddowez]

Yep, all 28 of my posts in the QT is more than I've posted here...Can scum not count, is that a thing?

[shaddowez]

I'm guessing you don't even read the QT posts that don't apply to your line of thinking - I'm only able to post at nights (have a toddler that loves electronics, so don't use any at home). Look at any of my games, you'll only see me posting during the same timeframe. And I'm sorry I'm not following your lead of upping my post count with things like

"Uh"
"vote Oka"
"why aren't we killing Oka"
"uh"
"Oka's Scum"

[shaddowez]

Two and a half weeks ago I posted something along these lines in the QT:

What do people think of the possibility of Tree/Psyche masons? Something in one of the posts felt like a crumb to me

I don't think this was the plan. I was under the impression that Oka was thinking of claiming cop himself.

Oh good, it wasn't just me.

Even if it was the other way, it wouldn't change my read based on Oka's other antics, and the way the other situation would play out. Assume that the plan went off like Titus suggests....if there was a real cop (which I'm currently inclined to believe there is), they would likely cc. The VT that then claimed Cop would most likely lynch, unless the doctor outed themselves. Either way, we've outed at least one PR and most likely lynched a townie.

That being said, I could be wrong, but don't have a stronger scumread at the moment.

if oka is the only protective role claimed with no counterclaim, oka is almost guaranteed to be town

The dead Macho Bodyguard.
Macho.

So you're not denying that bodyguard could be a cc as a protective role? I understand he was labeled as Macho, but using that as a point to say there's still a doctor as well is assuming Wake wouldn't throw modifiers in to just throw people off.

Titus

- Show me how Oka is town (other than the doc claim) and I'll consider sheeping you for a Psyche lynch.

[shaddowez]

@Mirhawk&Shaddowez

Did Aegor confess to being a bodyguard in the Neighborhood?

I know Mir and Oka both answered, but no he did not. He said he role didn't have a gun and that he wasn't going to claim.

Shaddow is obv.

You have still not given a single reason why you think I'm scum, other than the fact I'm voting you. You didn't even outright say it's because I'm voting a doc PR claim until Titus did. Until you're confirmed, I don't care what you claim. If we just believed every claim that came out, Aero would still be alive. That'd be great for us.

Titus

- You never addressed my question about bodyguard/doc being cc-able protective roles.

[shaddowez]

Also you dumb pushers are going to screw town over. Scum can hide. Scum can whiteknight. Scum can wagon. Scum can sheep.

I like how you left out that scum can fakeclaim.

[shaddowez]

So basically you scumread Royal who is in the nb but you say there cant be 2 scum in there?
Also Oka is town.

While I'm not discounting the fact I may be wrong (still don't think I am, but not saying its impossible) - could you please explain why you think Oka is town (doc claim not withstanding). Nobody that has said "Oka is town" has been able to point me to any evidence of such.

Also, tn has been pinging for me for a while, but I'm not quite sure why. Could be a difference in seeing him alone in play vs. being in a hydra. I'll look more into him again when I actually have time to do so (probably Sunday).

[shaddowez]

tn

- What do you think of the Peregrine wagon?

b) Shadowez has basically dropped off the face of the earth right now.

I'm only able to post at nights (have a toddler that loves electronics, so don't use any at home). Look at any of my games, you'll only see me posting during the same timeframe.

This applies to weekends too - I'm not going to V/LA every weekend, so I try to post some but will generally go longer than 24 hours.

Pere

- Do you not believe the mason claim? I'm going to guess not since you have the largest wagon right now, and your vote is the sole vote on one of the possible masons. Could you please explain why?

Oka really gives me a feeling of VI. he doesnt make much sense being scum with Aero. The doc claim combined with the macho thing. His genuine imo attempts to figure the game out and make plans.
Ye

Pedit:Oka drop this shit.
But things like this make me feel town. I myself said things like this when I was pressured as town pr.

gameplay, thank you. This is the first post that has actually provided reasoning on why people think Oka is town. I'm still not entirely convinced, but it's not people just going "He's a doc claim, he's obvtown!"

Considering moving my vote to Pere, but want to do an ISO for my own sanity, and doublecheck on votecount to avoid an accidental quickhammer.

[shaddowez]

I'm actually not comfortable with the Pere wagon right now. Assuming for the moment that all claims are legit, based on those and flips his reads early game were very off - Tree as scum (assumed mason), Aero as town (conf scum), Titus as scum (assumed cop). That and lack of activity are making it hard for me to read him, but there does seem to be some scumhunting going on. The biggest thing making me think he's scum is actually not anything in his ISO, but this post from tn. Still getting a slight scum vibe from tn, and the add-on of Pere at the end there feels like a push. I'm going to wait to hear from Pere before moving my vote.

[shaddowez]

I'm debating how dumb you could actually be to seriously think I'm scum or if you are smart town with dumb reads faking like you think I could be scum.

I really have no idea where this is coming from - I was listing some of Pere's reads and all claims as assumed to be true for sake of showing his reads to be off.

Also

reinoe

, I see him mention you as scum a few times, but don't actually see him pushing a lynch on you...were you referring to something specific?

[shaddowez]

Gah, stupid bad formatting on my part.

My first line was addressed to Titus since she thought I was thinking she's scum (I don't).

The second line was addressed to you (Reinoe) about Pere pushing your lynch, from Post #3537

[shaddowez]

I'm not voting Mir today.

If Marquis scum in ours, then 2 scum outside. Muffin can be SK.

Since we don't know the setup, where's the specific number coming from?

Muffin

- do you actually plan on trying to do anything this game, or just keep skating by and saying you're going to do things?

[shaddowez]

What are WotM and PotM?

We are reaching critical mass of PR's. We don't need to lynch any of the PR's when there's a serial killer out there.

This I agree with (not to mention I'm less sure of Oka as scum than I was at the beginning of toDay).

UNVOTE:

i dont think anyone here can give me a good reason to vote pv after the last few pages

I'm actually liking PV a little bit less after the last few pages. The setup spec has me questioning whether he's actually town not knowing where scum are, or scum pretending to not know where scum are. Even before they were outed ITT, after D1 scum knows about all the neighborhoods that they're in. It'd be easy for them to say "there's probably scum in every neighborhood" in order to force lynches from every hood, especially if that isn't the case. Which brings me up to the following point:

Which brings us to the likelyhood of there being scum in every neighborhood. I'm inclined to believe that there's probably at least one neighborhood with no scum, if for no other reason then to prevent us from hunting scum in exactly the manner that's being proposed.

I agree with this. I'm not saying it's definitely ours, though I do think Mir is town so there's a possibility it is.

Unvote

Why the unvote, you haven't mentioned PV since 3550?

[shaddowez]

tn

- Thanks for the acronym clarification.

Some of Peregrines recent posts have been barmy. But barmy isn't necessarily scummy, and some of them have also been good.

My original read was mostly based on his refusal to participate on a lynch day one. But if he's willing to keep posting regularly, then I'm willing to not just lynch him out of hand.

That's fair, and while his posts set me a little on edge they weren't enough for me to place my vote yet.

this is a normal
nor-mal
nor-mel
nor-large-theme
mmmmn

Show me where it explicitly states that an SK not coming back "guilty" in a guilty/not guilty report is considered not normal.

Marquis

- According to the wiki, SK can get investigation immunity - I'm guessing with guilty/innocent that would return an "innocent" result, not no result?

so gameplay and reinoe are conf everything town

Not necessarily, see above.

[shaddowez]

That's fair, and while his posts set me a little on edge they weren't enough for me to place my vote yet.

Pretend like I'm here. I give you permission to talk to me about my posts. Which ones "set you on edge" and why?

This is a basic summary of what I didn't like:

I'm actually liking PV a little bit less after the last few pages. The setup spec has me questioning whether he's actually town not knowing where scum are, or scum pretending to not know where scum are. Even before they were outed ITT, after D1 scum knows about all the neighborhoods that they're in. It'd be easy for them to say "there's probably scum in every neighborhood" in order to force lynches from every hood, especially if that isn't the case.

Also, you gave NS a hard time about one or two line posts early in the game, but seem to like padding your post count with flooding one response at a time. I'm still not positive your scum, but you're not making a very good town case for yourself.

Briefass reads list due to time constraints:

Scumreads - Majiffy, tn
Townreads - Mirhawk, Titus, reinoe, gameplay
Unsures/leaning too slightly for me to classify just yet: Oka, PV, Muffin

I left quite a few people off, for reasons that will become obvious later.

@Mod

- Is Alina due for a prod?

[shaddowez]

This weekend turned out impossible for posting, will be back tomorrow night

[shaddowez]

Majiffy

- I'll be honest. You and I haven't interacted much this game, and I've been flip flopping your read pretty much every time I read the game. At the time I posted that I was in a time crunch, and the bits that I read that night had me thinking you were sounding a bit scummy. I was very much not a fan of your early game, and at present I'm failing to see your case on Mirhawk, outside of thinking there's a scum in each neighborhood. Do you have any other reasoning for that, because based on interaction in the hood, and his game here, I don't get much of a scum vibe from him.

As for the PV wagon, I'm torn. I'm not entirely convinced either way, though I am starting to lean scum. The biggest thing driving me right now is I think PV's flip will give us quite a bit of information based on his wagon. I'd actually prefer a tn lynch, but with less than three days it looks like it's between PV and Mir. Unless I see an extremely good case on Mir, I'm sticking with my previous statement of not voting for him.

Since my vote should be somewhere, I'll stick it here for now

VOTE: Pere

[shaddowez]

gameplay

- Do you actually think Mir is scum, or are you just voting him since people have in the last page and you're not reading the last few days worth of posting?

[shaddowez]

We've had 2 large town wagons and a scum wagon, and I have yet to see you try and glean any information from any of those lynches, so your bolded statement above seems very disingenuous.

Let me get this straight - if people haven't done something in the past, they can't do it in the future without being scum? Also, just because I haven't posted about it doesn't mean that I haven't used info from VCA.

This, along with that whole "I don't know if Pere is town or scum pretending to be town" from 3623 makes this the 2nd cringe-worthy thing from you this gameday.
Looking at the Aero iso, you have 2-3 mentions in passing by him.
Your own views are against Aero lynch day1, but not because you think he is town. You went from 1613 (I don't like Aero) to 2032 (Not convinced Aero is scum). Day2 you are around but manage to not be on the wagon.

Notice I stated intent to hammer here. Pysche hammered here. If you look at the timestamp, and the fact that

I don't post during the day (EST) or much on weekends

, you'll see I had no chance to get on the wagon.

Since I think Titus is fully capable of fakeclaiming BP macho cop as scum and running with it as far and fast as possible,

If this is the case, since Oka hardclaimed first why claim macho and not let Oka waste his protects on her?

Number of people who have made a case on Mirhawk=0.

This.

Also, I'm doing this.

VOTE: tn

I went through his ISO, and I can't even find enough content to bother trying to make a case with. He's done no apparent scumhunting this game, had Aero as a townread until he voted for Aero, his biggest scum reads/arguments were with Elyse and texcat....it could be a red herring, but tn has been on my scumdar for a while now. If it comes down to deadline I'll compromise with a Pere vote, but would really rather see tn hang.

[shaddowez]

3 votes on him i counted
its been a while

I think you made 4 - Mirhawk, Alina, myself, you.

[shaddowez]

Titus

- What does the last part of this mean?

I love the chainsaw but I would like tn's suspicion more.

What's the case against TN? My read on him is null at the moment. I've read his ISO and while I don't see anything that jumps out as town, I also do see anything big that makes me think scum.

For me, it's almost exactly that there's nothing in his ISO. His entire game has been fluff posting. He's got quite a few posts, and nothing of content. It's D3 with 6 flips, and he's had nothing to say/contribute. He seem like scum that's just trying to coast with everybody else yelling at each other.

I see what your saying here. But, you are also saying scum can fakeclaim cop and scum can fakeclaim BP but scum can't fakeclaim macho?

I wasn't saying that scum can't fakeclaim macho at all - I was asking why she

would

fakeclaim macho if there's a claimed doctor? Scum tactics are usually to kill the cop so they can't be found, so smart town tactics is to protect the cop. If Titus were scum, why bother claiming macho and letting the doctor protect somebody else that they may possibly target, rather than letting the doctor just protect them uselessly?

[shaddowez]

There hasn't been a Mirhawk case, and based on interactions in the neighborhood I have no inclination to believe that he's scum at this point.

I didn't like the Farside when she was in the game, and Muffin's been doing almost nothing but promising to catch up and prod dodging. I'd be okay voting that slot, but not with one vote on him and less than 24 hours to lynch.
RoyalApe was mostly null to me, but I tend to drown out and ignore ridiculous arguments like the one between him and Elyse. I haven't gotten much from Skybird yet, but it's just another (almost) naked vote on Mirhawk with no case which gives me bad vibes.

tn

- Regardless of the fact that the person you voted is already dead, why did you vote a completely new person with 1 day to deadline? Did you actually expect a flashwagon, or do you really have no scumreads on any of the current wagons?

[shaddowez]

@Sky- a claim from TN would have been nice.

Would also be great if he's a PR if he comes in and gives results before dying.

First part agreed. Second part - did you actually think he was a PR, or are you just saying that in general since he didn't have a chance to claim?

[shaddowez]

i thought we had a doc

Even if Oka protected somebody last night, Titus was macho so it wouldn't have prevented that kill. Actually, since both factions went after Titus, it wouldn't have mattered anyway since she wasn't actually bulletproof.

the things Aero said about Mir in the nb

What things are these? If you've already said them in thread I apologize for missing them, but so far I haven't really seen a case against Mir. If there's actually info that would lend itself to a case, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

becuz she was macho so it would be wasting my shot

And this got covered before I posted...

mirhawk in the neighborhood was convinced in titus sk btw

This is a blatant lie. Not sure how much I'm allowed to actually quote from there, but Mir made a case for her being SK and for her being scum, both with nothing more than circumstantial evidence. He never once said "Titus is definitely the SK"

I think I'd be okay with a Psyche lynch, but I have to go back and read to be certain. I'm definitely still not ok with a Mir lynch since

there's been no case made

.

[shaddowez]

A case can be made on anyone.

I realize it can, but nobody has. The most I've seen is "I'm okay with voting Mirhawk". There's not been a single reason given, that I've read, that says

why

. I don't think anyone has even said as much as "for no reason other than I want to". We've found one scum so far and we're down 3 PRs. If we keep going this way and just voting blindly, there's no way we're going to win.

[shaddowez]

"mirhawk in the neighborhood was convinced in titus sk btw" =/= "Mirhawk has made a case that could result in Titus being the SK or scum, or still town"

If you had said Mir had a feeling of scum Titus, I wouldn't have called you a liar. What you said was a lie.

Mir

- I know you made a case, I pointed that out as well. As just stated, what Oka said was a lie. That may not be what he intended, but it's what he wrote.

[shaddowez]

SK HAS to be one of the following players.
MuffinMan
Majiffy
Peregrine
notscience
Shaddowez
Skybird

The list for possible scum is similar, but a little different.
MuffinMan
Majiffy
Peregrine
notscience
Shaddowez
Skybird
Alina
Marquis
Psyche
Oka

I have reasons to think Oka is unlikely to be scum. I'm also inclined to believe that Marquis and Psyche are actually masons.

First - RoyalApe is no longer in the game, it is now Skybird. I've fixed that in the quote.

Second - So, your scum list is everybody in the game except you and the two confirmed townies. Also, if there's a godfather or an investigation immune SK, you can't count out either of the cop confirms for either list....so, basically, you're saying the only person that is town is you, and everyone else is either scum or the SK? That's helpful...

[shaddowez]

Mir

- who would you put at the top of each of your lists (scum and SK)?

Muffin

- Any reason for that call?

[shaddowez]

renioe

- I'm not sure about Sky. The factions may have both considered the cop a bigger threat with the late game. As for why Oka is still alive, I asked the same thing towards the beginning of D3 in 3213.

[shaddowez]

Which should have been followed up with, I'm not sure how he survived yet another night.

[shaddowez]

Also I'm no longer suspicious of Alina.

Why is this? I was actually beginning to look more into her. She seems to be playing completely differently this game than any other game I've been in with her, and she's been town every time.

[shaddowez]

Because I suspected Alina's drop in activity to be an attempt to hide without posting. Her forum behavior shows that that is not the case.

What do you think about the rest of her play? I admit the drop in activity was part of what made me start looking at her posts again, but to me it still isn't reading quite like previous games with town-Alina.

[shaddowez]

Alright, so at this point I'm not entirely comfortable with either of the wagons. I still don't like the idea of a Mirhawk lynch, because I'm still failing to see enough evidence to make me think he's scum. I'm still not sold on the masons either, so I don't like the composition of the Majiffy wagon.

I won't be around much this weekend, but want my vote to be somewhere. I thought Farside was scummy, and Muffin hasn't done anything to change my opinion of that slot. Until someone comes up with a good reason for me to list him as town,

VOTE: Muffin

[shaddowez]

Forgot I have a wedding tomorrow, so won't be on at all. Will be back Sunday night.

In the meantime, anyone that wants to give reads on Muffin would be appreciated.

[shaddowez]

Welcome to the game, House. I'm really looking forward to hearing from you. As a sidenote, I think your slot may very well be scum.

Jiffy

- What do you think of Muffin?

Pysche

- You back in this game? What are your most recent thoughts?

[shaddowez]

Glancing back at the scum lynch, I find it odd that you call Majiffy the most reputable person here when he had no part of it.

I'm preeeeeeety sure Mir was being sarcastic there, since Jiffy's vote was on him.

[shaddowez]

Psyche - Scum (Could he possibly post more and say less? I don't think so...)
Marquis - Town (As much as I hate it)

I'm assuming you haven't gotten there yet, but Marquis and Psyche are claiming masons. Considering you're listing one as town and one as scum, which do you think is more likely?

Will read & post more later, I'm freakin' sleepy.

This game is a time sink.

Yeah, I definitely don't envy anybody coming into this game late.

[shaddowez]

@shaddowez

What's your opinion on Wake's new Prod Dodge rule?

I didn't realize until now that I didn't post here yesterday, my bad.

I actually really like this rule, and not just for this game. It encourages people to actually have more discussion, and not try to base reads on only the players that are actually participating. People can still lurk by posting something somewhat game related (even if it's a random vote or unvote), but at least that gives more content to work with.

Interesting question considering the state of the game - why'd you ask?

[shaddowez]

gameplay

- Since it sounds like you and Skybird are communicating in your 'hood, what are your thoughts on her?

[shaddowez]

forcing people to make "content" makes it hard for people who like to make reads based on how genuine something sounds

I'm not sure how that's a bad thing though. It shouldn't be too hard to come up with one post with content every 48 hours (I'll excuse weekends, I know my play on weekends is minimal, and that's being generous). Not trying to be a dick, but if you're literally in a place where you can't post something game related at least once every 48 hours, you should replace out. You're not doing anything for the game either way - if you're scum, it's even worse than active lurking as you'll either become a policy lynch or you get ignored and it's a cheap win, and if you're town you're doing absolutely nothing to help.

Mind you, this is the royal you, I'm not trying to pick on you specifically.

[shaddowez]

2) why should i say

3) look at my vote.

Oh, ok then. I was planning on looking at your response and then thinking long and hard about whether I should do this but those two shit answers makes me no longer give a fuck...


I'm a customized role called "The Shield". Three times I may protect two people from night-kills. I'm like a better doctor.

I didn't want to cc immediately because it's possible that there would multiple protective roles in this Wake Game. I'm tired of arguing with myself about why there's a claimed doctor alive who has now avoided six nightkills.

VOTE: OkaPoka

Don't think I need any more convincing. I've had a pretty good town read on Reinoe the entire time, and my thoughts on Oka from 3174 and 3213 are basically just being echoed here.

VOTE: Oka

[shaddowez]

From the wiki for Normal games:

New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

[shaddowez]

UNVOTE:

Actually, before I do that...Reinoe, have you used your power yet, and if so on who and why?

[shaddowez]

Why the fuck would scum kill Texcat? That makes zero sense.

On a side note, Reinoe is innocent.

Unless Reinoe is an II SK, or a Godfather, I'm actually inclined to believe him. Would still like answers first though.

[shaddowez]

wake had that exact role a while ago in a mini normal

This actually makes me believe it even more. Unless reinoe was in that game, he'd have to do a shit ton of digging to find something like that. Also, even with my limited interactions with Wake I could see him doing something like that (using a unique role that he liked).

[shaddowez]

Eh, fuck it.

VOTE: Oka

[shaddowez]

That IS a really terrible claim to make if you're scum.

But man, I dunno. Oka has to be a PR.

But what scum PR can he be if he's not a doc, roleblocker, rolecop, or godfather?

I'm not sure I understand this post - are you asking what scum PR Oka could be, or what scum PR reinoe could be?

If it's reinoe, it would have to be godfather since Titus told us he was innocent.

If it's Oka, what would make you think he's not any of the roles you listed?

[shaddowez]

Humor me for a moment and pretend that Oka targeted Josh night one.

Josh would be a bad or impossible target for all of those roles.

So what would that make Oka?

Alright, I think I see what you're saying. However, even if he is a PR, why do you think he had to actually target Josh N1? Two people other than Oka claimed D1, Josh and Aero. Aero was already under flak as a strong scum read by a lot of people. If Oka is fake claiming a doctor role, who better to choose as his fake target? If he chose somebody who hadn't claimed anything yet, he'd be scrutinized for not protecting an outed PR. If he protected Aero, once Aero flipped he'd be scrutinized for protecting the PR that was being scum read versus the PR that wasn't.

[shaddowez]

Fuck. I was a regular doc gambitting so I could save myself for lylo.

Goodamnit.

That makes even

less

sense that Josh died on N2 then. If you could protect every night, we had a cop who claimed they couldn't be protected, and we had another claimed PR,

why would you not protect the PR every night until a better target became evident

?

P-Edit

- I completely agree about the gameplay hammer being horrendous

[shaddowez]

I'll be around intermittently tonight, but then V/LA for the weekend.

@MOD - I'll be V/LA until Monday, 10/13

[shaddowez]

Can we please just ml me today instead of later

What's "ml"?

There's two scum in Pere/zmuffin/Majiffy

Look at how impossible it was to wagon them compAres to the ease of the tn5421 Lynch.

Also nice gambit Titus.

Yep.

If you're assuming a second scum out of that group, why PV over Muffin? Farside's reads early game were terrible, and I haven't seen enough from Muffin to make me think he's more than a null.

Hey phone posting.

Can you show me the post where Mirhawk claimed tracker and insisted that he be protected? Because house's assertion that I should know whom the scum would kill is really shitty. I constantly expressed my frustration with the scum kills precisely because they got around all my protects. In fact I talked about it more than anyone.

Also House asserts that my claim was bs but still happily voted OKa yesterday. You can piss off with that bullshit.

I have to agree that Reinoe can't be entirely to blame here - he also claimed that it's a 3-shot, so technically he could have used them all the first three nights (which wouldn't help the fact that him and Oka missed all three previous nights, but would explain N4).

If there is a godfather, I'm actually more tempted to believe it's Gameplay than reinoe.

D1 - Aegor lynch. Gameplay isn't on the wagon, but is sitting on Oka with Aero (confirmed scum) and RoyalApe/Skybird (being scum read by multiple people)
D2 - Aero lynch, his vote is sitting nicely right in the middle, after Titus stated he was lying about his result.
D3 - tn lynch. Gameplay's vote is on Mirhawk, the only other person voting Mirhawk was Majiffy.
D4 - Oka lynch. Quick hammers.

Also, all of these:

I think the Aero wagon is scum motivated. The scummiest on it so far are Shadow, T S O and NS.

Sk and one mafia team ok

VOTE: Psyche

Right now I am ok with both oka and psyche. Reinoe is ok too.

With this and my reads it leaves only Psyche out. So if Psyche ( maybe NS) isn't scum then it's Aero. And

VOTE: Psyche

Josh isn't a strong town player at all and even less a conf. town. Stop being shitty.

Wait why is he being wagoned?

Another mislynch

Ok so I vote.
I want night cus I need to read sorry

VOTE: Oka

It's probably the unpopular opinion since he's one of Titus' cop cleared, but I'm still going to do this for now, based on looking more into it:
VOTE: gameplay

[shaddowez]

What do you make of this:

Humor me for a moment and pretend that Oka targeted Josh night one.

Josh would be a bad or impossible target for all of those roles.

So what would that make Oka?

(I'll confess, I really didn't know what to make of it until after the fact... but I don't even have any completed games under my belt)

Mir and I actually talked about this in the hood for a little bit, and came up with the idea of Watcher. If scum thought that Josh's claim may draw a cop or doctor, they could have seen who else targeted him. No other hints were dropped that made me think Mir was a tracker.

[shaddowez]

I've been looking at the vote counts and one thing that jumps out at me is Shaddowez has been on every town lynch wagon but not on the scum wagon. For that one he didn't vote. I think he deserves some attention.

Please read the game, thanks:

Looking at the Aero iso, you have 2-3 mentions in passing by him.
Your own views are against Aero lynch day1, but not because you think he is town. You went from 1613 (I don't like Aero) to 2032 (Not convinced Aero is scum). Day2 you are around but manage to not be on the wagon.

Notice I stated intent to hammer here. Pysche hammered here. If you look at the timestamp, and the fact that

I don't post during the day (EST) or much on weekends

, you'll see I had no chance to get on the wagon.

PV

- Your own posts cause your logic to fail.

Neighborhoods

marquis/

titus-cop

/

pv

/

texcat

tn5421

/

aero

/

gameplay (Titus cop result)

/skybird

Mirhawk-tracker

/

Aegor-bodyguard?

/

Oka-doc

/Shadowez

Not in hood

Josh

reinoe (Titus cop result)

notscience
Muffin

Elyse
TSO

Majiffy

House
Psyche

marquis claimed masons with Psyche. psyche did not cc.

If you think scum are present in each hood (I do), then that leaves

Marquis

(my PoV) and Shaddow as scum, with the SK amoung you, notsicence, house and

psyche

.

If one hood is scum-free, then another scum in the outside hood group.

start there.

If Marquis claimed masons with Psyche, and they are not

both

scum, why would Psyche not have cced? If they are both scum, then that's four scum (which is the assumption you've been going off of), leaving mine a scum-free neighborhood (as proposed as possible way back when), and the SK any one of the rest of us, again assuming they're II. However, I'm disinclined to imagine that they're both scum, mainly because of this post:

I think Marquis and Psyche are obvscum and Mirhawk has a good chance of being scum.

So figure out where I stand based on that.

A non-countered mason claim is an automatic chain lynch if one is scum, and for another now-confirmed scum to have listed them both as obvscum makes me a little too leery for my liking. On the other hand, if you're so insistent that there's scum in every hood, and Marquis is town, that leaves you as scum. Or would your thoughts all of a sudden change?

[shaddowez]

Right. So, notscience - is Peregrine V scum, null, or town? I'd love to have three in the good column before weeding out the rest.

Also, am I reading this correctly? We have innocent cop results on Gameplay and Reinoe? Why the fuck are there votes on Gameplay, unless I'm reading that wrong?

I listed my case in 4382. I don't have a better scum read right now, and usually like my vote someplace rather than nowhere. It's assuming Godfather, so I could be completely off on this.

[shaddowez]

Hey peoples, you know that one player that everyone keeps calling scum but never gets lynched, but then at the end of the game they turn out to be scum? That's PeregrineV. He keeps getting called scum but never gets lynched.

Actually, I was thinking something along these lines earlier tonight. Out of curiosity, I did a VCA, focusing on Peregrine. I found some interesting results - the first, overarching point is that he's

never

been on a wagon that ended up in a lynch. Here's the breakdown:

D1 - Starts with an RVS vote on Elyse (conftown), then moves to Psyche (probtown - Mason) as the second vote. He then moves to tn (conftown), then moves to RoyalApe where he stays through Aegor's lynch (conftown).
D2 - Doesn't vote at all through Aero's lynch (confscum), and gives me a hard time about not being on the Aero wagon in 3812.
D3 - His first vote of the day is on Marquis (probtown - Mason), then moves to a vote on me ({conf}town) where he stays through tn's lynch (conftown).
D4 - First vote of the day is again on Marquis, again where he stays until the Oka lynch (conftown).

He hasn't placed a vote on anybody that hasn't turned up town yet, and since day one has pretty much been planting his vote. Additionally, the people he's been voting haven't generally had wagons forming, so he's able to keep them there without risk of a townie lynch. He also has plausible deniability of never lynching a townie.

After this review and my last post regarding his scum-location, I'm convinced.

VOTE: Pere

[shaddowez]

PV, can you make up your mind about what you're trying to say? You're convinced about one setup until you get questioned about it, in which case you say it could be another setup.

You consistently talk about a 4-person team + SK until 4518 where you say it could be 4 or 5, because I already called you out on your numbers not adding up (2 scum dead + 2 "masons" + 1 other scum =/= 4), and then go back to working under the assumption of 4 scum for every post thereafter.

Your referral to 3575 made absolutely no sense as a rebuttal to what you quoted, but I'll address it here:
We're now on D5. If Marquis fake-claimed masons with Psyche, by this time there is no reason for Psyche to have not called him out on it if only one of them are scum:

Marquis scum, Psyche town

- If Psyche is town, enough time should have passed for Psyche to evaluate whether or not he thinks Marquis is scum or town. With the limited amount of time left in the game (3 game days if I'm doing my math right and neither scum or SK is caught by then), if Psyche even has an ounce of doubt about Marquis being town he should cc. It just makes no sense for Psyche to have said absolutely nothing by this point if he's town and they're not actually masons.

Marquis town, Psyche scum

- Since Marquis is the one that claimed masons with Psyche and not the other way around, a cc that ended up with a Marquis town lynch as not masons would end up in an immediate Psyche lynch. Similarly to the reverse, if Marquis had thought Psyche was scum and used it as a gambit, he should have claimed it as such by now when Psyche didn't cc it. There is no reason for a townie to go along with such a gambit.

That leaves the two choices of them telling the truth, or them both being scum. Granted, they did not know there was an SK out there at the time the mason claim was made, but after that was found out Psyche could have tried to back out of it, considering he never actually confirmed it. If the SK were to kill one of them and they came up scum, or if one of them was lynched as scum, the next logical step is to lynch the other one. Additionally, while I could see Majiffy bussing one or the other of them, I just can't see him outright calling them both obvscum as scum himself. While that may be just the sort of WIFOM he was going for if he were to get killed first, I just don't feel it.

If you beleive the mason claim and cop innocents, then you believe

In 1 neighborhoods of 4 people that are all town
Then your looking for 2-3 scum and an SK in
notscience
House
Skybird
Shadow

If you think scum has 4 players, then one of the above is town, the rest are scum of some sort.

If you think Shadow is town, then The Aeronaut hood has 2 scum in it, and there were 2 hoods (masonrys in fact) with no scum.

This is all from your PoV.

You

outright

leave yourself out of this entire scenario, even though you're saying it's from Pine's POV, who in the quote you posted says you're on his list....

it's simple. You have to think there is an SK and 2 or 3 scum left.

You believe masons or you do not.

You believe cop-clears or you do not.

That leaves an ever smaller pool of possible scum.

Again, your math doesn't add up. You can't give somebody the option that will or won't limit the number of scum in their pool, and then say it limits the number of scum in their pool. Your attempts at logic are nice, but not successful.

You're definitely my top scum read right now, and I could see ns being the last scum, again assuming 4. If anybody were to agree with me on the possibility of a godfather, I still say gameplay. House and Pine would be the other two, one as SK and the other as a possible 5th scum if there are 5. Pine because I wasn't fond of the Muffin slot, and House because of the blind sheeping. I appreciate that he thinks I'm the towniest, but him just following my votes is giving me a bit of a bad vibe.

[shaddowez]

Also, I believe that PV is at L-2 right now. The count somebody provided earlier was incorrect, as reinoe had voted for PV twice.

[shaddowez]

Sorry for the absence, life got busier than expected. Will be back Sunday night

[shaddowez]

you really should have replaced me the first time
the fact that i'm still posting doesn't mean you don't have a job to do

Actually, it does. Replace out or don't. Don't say you want to, then continue to contribute. It's disingenuous, and smacks strongly of using a non-game factor to affect in-game play. It's a lot like active lurking, but you can just deny responsibility

I

slightly

disagree with Pine here. If somebody has legitimately requested to replace out, be it for time constraint reasons or whatnot, continuing to post until they've been officially replaced is fine with me. There may be outstanding questions posed to them, or specific things they want to bring to light for their replacement.

However, that being said, what Psyche has been doing is not the same thing. Based on Wake's note in his latest VC, it does not appear that Psyche has officially requested replacement. He just keeps saying things in thread making the rest of the player base think he's going to. I honestly can't see why somebody would do that either way, but definitely can't see town motivation in it at all. I also don't understand why town would randomly accept a fake masons claim, and then not say anything until being seriously looked into Days later. I'm completely throw off by this reveal, and honestly can't see both Marquis and Psyche (if either) being town right now. Since Psyche is the one that never countered and eventually outed it, that reeks more of scum to me.

VOTE: Psyche

@MOD

- I believe reinoe had changed his vote to Psyche before your VC.

[shaddowez]

I have decided not to abandon this game after fucking up.

One or both of PV/Shadow is scum. The above vote and reasoning was horrible.

Please explain why it's horrible, other than the fact that you're town reading Psyche?

Tell me, if you were in the reverse position as town, would you blindly accept somebody else claiming Mason's with you, and then out it as we're getting closer to Endgame?

[shaddowez]

If you're not scum, then who is scum between me and PV? It's incredibly frustrating that both you and PV are ignoring the 2/4 and 1/4 living neighborhoods without flipped scum already, and I'm thinking you two are scum for it. Neighborhoods of this size and with all-town flips so far are great benefits to have in terms of scumhunting/process of elimination, and at the very least PV should know it.

How was I ignoring PV? I voted him on D3, and then was voting him toDay until I just voted Psyche due to the Mason BS. I never said I don't think he's scum, I just also think Psyche is scum.

Also, while I hate to defend him, how the hell can you say that PV has been ignoring the neighborhoods? He's been the one pushing for a scum in each hood

forever

, which is why he thinks I'm scum (unless he has a better case against me, which I haven't seen). It's also the reason he's been pushing you as scum, since he says he's town. I know you thought about replacing out, but have you even been reading this game?

[shaddowez]

UNVOTE:

Marquis, from what I remember, PV has been the one pushing scum in each neighborhood.

Which is a super sketchy assumption. Remember, scum KNOWS the percentage of scum in each neighborhood. If there were even one all-Town hood, or one hood that you don't have members in that might contain our SK, charging full steam ahead on the notion that there has to be scum in each is practically required. It's a free action that looks like legit scumhunting, when it's just bad logic.

I've said it repeatedly, I'll say it again. Wake stated in the first post that there's a twist to this game. All bets regarding setup are off the table

Something along the lines of this had come up much earlier in the game, but I think you stated it much more eloquently here. I'm still not sure what to think of the fake-masons, but don't want to see the PV wagon just disappear yet again.

VOTE: Pere

[shaddowez]

VOTE: Pine

He's scum. I also think one of Psyche or Marquis is scum. PV is also scum.

You're saying that PV and possibly Psyche are scum, both of which have wagons forming on them already. Why would you vote for the third option, rather than voting someone with a wagon and just pushing for a future lynch?

[shaddowez]

Holy Hannah!!!! I thought my vote was the hammer.

Sadly not, the fakemason reveal derailed the Pere wagon.

P-Edit: Sorry Sky, thought notty was still voting Psyche, wagon sizes are about the same according to this VC.

[shaddowez]

Mod

- Can we get a prod on gameplay please?

[shaddowez]

Marquis

- Do you think PV is more likely to be scum or SK? Also, who else do you think is scum?

[shaddowez]

Marquis

- Do you think PV is more likely to be scum or SK?

Would that be relevant?

It might provide insight into his other reads. If he thinks PV is the SK, I'd want to look at interactions between anyone else he lists as scum; on the other hand, if he lists PV as scum, we'd be able to look at PV's interactions with whoever else Marquis lists. Make sense?

[shaddowez]

Should I L-1 PV

I want to L-1 PV

If you want to, why wouldn't you?

[shaddowez]

Pine and Skybird

- I don't see either of you getting lynched today, so rather than vote each other why don't you focus on who of the viable wagons could be scum? I definitely don't think both of you are scum, but the way the thread is being derailed at this point makes it more and more likely that one of you are.

[shaddowez]

PV

- If you're town, why would you self hammer? (If my count was correct, it actually was)

[shaddowez]

Well, SK killed Gameplay because he or she was thinking Godfather

No idea why notscience was killed. Maybe scum looking for SK? Maybe a Townie unlikely to be protected? Maybe just a Townie they thought wouldn't eat a lynch?

I still want my Psyche lynch

7 left alive, probably 2 Mafia and 1 SK. If we mislynch and there are two Townie kills, Mafia wins

At this point of the game, why are you bringing up so much spec? NS wasn't posting very often, and his last two votes were on you and on PV. The other thing that you failed to bring up was the fact that notty had claimed double-voter, which could be dangerous to scum late game.

I'm on board with the Psyche lynch, but have a personal thing about voting empty slots. I won't place a vote there until the replacement comes in (unless Psyche continues to post).

In post 720, Majiffy stated that he thought that day's lynch should be either Aero, Psyche, or Tree. Would Majiffy be so bold as to list all his scum buddies in one post?

I'd actually brought up that post earlier in the game, and I'm beginning to wonder more and more if he would.

VOTE: house

townread decimated.

Would you be so kind as to provide more info, please?

House, when you first replaced in you scum read Psyche in post 4156. Do you still read Psyche as scum?

Skybird, what do you guys discuss during the Day phase in the chat?

I'm interested in this as well. I think yours is the only hood who hasn't ever been really open about what's going on in there.

If we weren't masons I would think Psyche could be scum actually because of Majiffy being all like "the claim is shit and they're both scum but let's lynch Marquis first and keep my vote on him and while I'm saying a lot about Psyche being scum with Marquis watch as I never actually follow up on that and only want to lynch Marquis" which would really point to Psyche scum
But also this isn't a bastard game so the longwinded speculation is moot

Upon review I found this post, which is quite interesting. Marquis claims here that Psyche could be scum if they weren't masons because of Majiffy's posts. However, unless Psyche's lying to us

now

about not being masons (which would make absolutely no sense whatsoever), that means that Marquis should have been thinking Psyche was scum. If that was the case, why wouldn't he blow the gambit and vote Psyche? He's also made random comments about having a solid town read on Psyche, which this post doesn't reflect. If Marquis is scum, he knows Psyche's alignment, and was probably hoping to ride the mason claim to endgame. I'm still not sure if they're both scum, but this post definitely has me reading Psyche as more town and Marquis as scum.

VOTE: Marquis

[shaddowez]

And still Psyche and Marquis are alive. Why?

So still alive:
Pine
Reinoe
House
Shaddowez
Skybird
Marquis
Psyche-replacement

That's a good question. Here's a better one - why aren't you voting one of them if you think they should be dead?

reinoe is cop-cleared, and considering gameplay was actually innocent, we can assume that Titus was correct about him as well. Assuming best case scenario, we're looking for 3 more scum out of the remaining 6 players. Since I know it's not me, that actually makes it 3 out of the remaining 5. I'm going to play the lower odds here, and try to look for town out of the group.

I was iffy on House's slot while Alina was in it, but that was mostly because of Alina's play compared to other games I'd been in with her, not because she'd done anything outright scummy. Considering she site-flaked, it's possible she had other stuff going on. I've also liked House's play for the most part, so I'm still willing to consider him town.

I'm torn between Pine/Skybird as the other town. I actually really like what Pine's been doing, but didn't like either of his predecessors at all. On the other hand, I've not been impressed by Skybird or her predecessors, but nothing has really struck me as particularly scummy, either. It's possible that both of them are scum if either Marquis/Psyche aren't, but I highly doubt that.

All that being said, that leaves both Marquis and Psyche in my scum pile, and I'm willing to vote either. I actually like my Marquis vote based on the post I made the other day. Does anyone else have any thoughts on that, btw?

[shaddowez]

House

- You obviously think Psyche is scummier than Marquis, but what do you think of Marquis?

[shaddowez]

I'm not sure I understand your point, reinoe. How is it more or less against their wincon than leaving you, a cop cleared and claimed PR, alive?

Who do you think is or isn't scum at this point? You haven't voted or said anything of much use toDay.

[shaddowez]

Deadline is in ~24 hours, and votes are on for different people. I want either a Marquis or Psyche lynch at this point. I'll move my vote to psyche of it looks like that's more likely to happen, but something should happen. With both the SK and at least two mafia probably alive, a no lunch does is no good toDay

[shaddowez]

For=four

[shaddowez]

VOTE: Psyche

Deadline vote

[shaddowez]

I've never been involved in a mass claim, but am willing to do so if we decide to.

I've also been re-reading, and while I'm not completely convinced that Psyche and Marquis are both town, I think I actually have a stronger scum read than either of them right now. I'm going to sheep reinoe for now, and will post reasons why shortly:

VOTE: Pine

[shaddowez]

I apologize in advance for the wall, but found more posts than I even expected. Some of them are from when he first replaced in, but felt they needed to be their for the sake of completeness.

Assuming the Mason claims are legit, my list is:

--Town--
Gameplay (Cop inno)
Reinoe (Cop inno)
Marquis (Mason)
Psyche (Mason)
Notscience (Too reckless and unhelpful to be scum)

--Everyone else--
PV
Shaddowez
Skybird

--Scum--
House (Singularly unhelpful, anti-Town behavior, fixation on disproving Cop inno)

Vote: House

This is what we're doing

You're refusing to acknowledge the forest, but for the trees. Perhaps I can rephrase, such that you'll engage my allegation instead of splitting hairs: notscience was being moody and refusing to make things easier. You're being straight-up counter-productive and refusing to engage. There's a big damn difference between the two, though I could have chosen better words

At this point, I'm prepared to lynch everyone not on my Town list in a by-the-numbers fashion

Rather than engage with anyone or attempt to do any scum hunting when he first joins the game, he decides he wants to just lynch everyone in his "not-town" group. The "town" group includes the two cop-clears, the two "masons", and one random player. Easy enough to put all town/hope for the SK in the not-town group.

I think Pine is scum guys. Like really scum. I am not sure on pere seeing how it developed.

Welp a message to our lovely SK:
Dear mister SK,
We need your help. You see the game will soon be over if we dont lynch correctly today and if you kill town again we might not win. I mean nor town nor you could win. And you see we have no idea in who you could be. So please try killing scum tonight. If you it'll reward you greatly by probably winning. Use your own reads mister SK but I suggest Pine dies. Like stab that bitch several times till he becomes a bloody, meaty mess. Ty ty :3

Pedit: oh house are you the SK?

Gameplay is hardcore SK-hunting. I'm completely rethinking the suggestion of Godfather. I still refuse to support lynching a Cop inno at this stage, but if we narrow it down further with no Godfather flip, this post alone changes everything. It reeks. Also, if you look back at Psyche's Majiffy quotes in 4513, Majiffy was discrediting the innocent on Reinoe, not Gameplay.

Unvote

House has a point. Voting Gameplay at this point is

stupid

, but I now understand the desire.

Psyche 4513 is a Townpost. Scum that think they're secure in a Mason fake claim are not likely to be that helpful.

PeregrineV is on my list and (I think) is at L-1, and is attacking the wagon on himself rather than pursuing an alternative. I'm ready to lynch him, but I'd prefer to have another day or so to solidify my thoughts, as I'm a good candidate for a NK. Consider this preparedness to hammer. Do we have a claim from PV? I'd also like to hear one before the end.

A number of things in this post. First, it's his first of several comments about SK hunting. The reason this is important is because he doesn't say until later it's a scum tell, and never votes the people he accuses of doing it. Secondly, he mentions a specific post of Psyche's that's town, because scum in a fake mason claim wouldn't do something like that; then, when the fake mason claim comes out, Psyche is his main target. Lastly is the bit about PV...something about it just feels off to me, like he's scum that's trying to earn town cred by holding off on the hammer for when the flip comes up town.

Yarp

This is why I want to kill it with fire

My gut says scum wouldn't admit to a fakeclaim tho

Very fencesitting post.

Unless contradicted in bold, please refer to this post should I die

I am highly confident that {PV, Skybird, Psyche} contains 2-3 scum

One of his comments about being likely to die, which is just odd to me. Also, one wrong, two to find out.

The assumptions we make are one of the most significant insights into our motives.

My case consists of two very strong points:

1) You posited a theory that made an assumption involving information Town doesn't have. Ergo, informed minority. Ergo, Mafia

2) You're not scumhunting, you're Serial Killer hunting. That's a huge Mafia giveaway.

Yes, I feel that's a strong case

As for PV, it's a lot of little things. I don't have a bunch of time to put it all together on my tablet, so call it a strong, educated hunch. Biggest clue might be the way he reacted to getting wagoned, and how easily that wagon melted away (note to self, analyze who went on and off of that wagon.) Plus, if he were Town with several people ready to hammer, it would have happened

Another SK-hunting comment.

PV was at L-1 and his lynch didn't happen, even when 75% of players were endorsing it. If a Townie had been in that position, he'd have been hammered.

Also, at this point I'm pretty sure you're either not reading my case on you or sticking your fingers in your proverbial ears and going "La la la can't hear you." My case isn't for your benefit, it's directed towards everyone else. I'm quite finished explaining the same thing over and over again.

This is one of the biggest flags for me. First of all, it's a whole lot of WIFOM. More importantly, PV was at L-1 in 4542 when Pine decided not to hammer yet. Knowing someone is town and not hammering leaves room for town cred when they flip town, as well as being able to make the argument he's making here.

Aww man

I'm totes going to eat a NK

PE: aye aye

Another NK mention.

Unvote
Vote: Peregrine V

Well, the lynch I want isn't going through, I'll compromise for my second pick

Skybird, I've been having nagging gut feelings all day suggesting that you might be newTown with a really, really scummy-looking playstyle. Let's get a claim from PV, then lynch him

PV, you're at L-1 with lots of support for a hammer, claim and let's move on

Moves back onto the wagon at L-1 now, pushing for the claim/hammer.

Well, SK killed Gameplay because he or she was thinking Godfather

No idea why notscience was killed. Maybe scum looking for SK? Maybe a Townie unlikely to be protected? Maybe just a Townie they thought wouldn't eat a lynch?

I still want my Psyche lynch

7 left alive, probably 2 Mafia and 1 SK. If we mislynch and there are two Townie kills, Mafia wins

I don't understand the reasoning to put the kill spec here. It's just another one of those "feels weird" posts.

All in all, there aren't many actual scummy sounding things, but there are enough things that are just off to make me think twice. Not to mention, even if Psyche and Marquis are both scum of some flavor, there's still a third one to find, and Pine is where I think it is right now.

[shaddowez]

Why is everyone ignoring the prospect of a shaddowez wagon (including shaddowez himself, as if he doesn't want to draw too much attention to it)

You've been the only person to vote for me or bring up the idea of a wagon...what is there to address? I'm not going to waste my time defending one vote that I know is wrong.

[shaddowez]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Psyche

Still thinking he's scum, and as the most likely lynch to occur I'll gladly jump back on the wagon.

[shaddowez]

Mod - I will be V/LA over the weekend (until 11/10)

[shaddowez]

If I'm doing my numbers right, we're in a weird state of MYLO right now. If we mislynch today, depending on events I'm almost positive we lose either toDay or the next Day.

I don't particularly read sky as scum, I can't see Wake putting someone he feels necessary to protect so bad as to overstep his authority as mod to ask town to go easy on her into a scum slot.

THIS WAS MY ORIGINAL THOUGHT

I don't think I ever argued with it. o_o

This is the problem with what Wake did in general. It produces a whole lot of WIFOM and meta into the game that shouldn't exist. I don't particularly read Sky as scummy, but it has nothing to do with what Wake posted. The only thing that pings me about her is her opening post toDay:

Since there wasn't a mafia kill it seems that all we have left to do is hunt the SK.

Wake, I'll be V/LA Thursday through Saturday.

Trying to throw suspicion off of the last possible scum slot could be a newbscum mistake, and if they happen to catch the SK toDay, they get a kill tonight, and are in LYLO the next Day with lessened suspicion. This could also be genuine - I'm not sure right now.

I still question Marquis' choice of fake-claiming mason and trying to ride it out until endgame, but his posts toDay have seemed town.

My feelings are still mostly similar to what I posted in 4857. I just have to figure out who between Skybird and Pine I feel is scummier and more likely to not be a mislynch.

[shaddowez]

We have five people left, and two of them are claiming to have crumbed roles already. I'm having a hard time getting final reads right now, so I'm going to go with my gut at this point.

VOTE: Skybird

[shaddowez]

I think I'm lynched already, but even so House is scum. I should've gone with my gut way back when when I thought Alina was scum.

I'm a 1-shot BP. There was no mafia kill last night, and all of a sudden House is insistent I'm scum/SK. Also, he was the only one outright opposed to massclaim.

I was still trying to search out the SK, which is why I didn't claim this earlier toDay. In case it matters,
VOTE: House

[shaddowez]

As soon as House turned on me after no NK, I knew he was the last scum. I also knew there was no easy way I was going to convince anyone of that without outing myself, so I was trying to figure out a way to do so. Personally, I think I had a pretty good run, and enjoyed the game. Nicely done scumteam!

[shaddowez]

Also, I should have pushed my Alina gutread earlier....actually posted about it in the hood QT a couple of times.

[shaddowez]

That's when I knew for a fact. I was still torn between you and Marquis for a bit. I actually wanted to keep the last scum alive, because had I lived that Day phase I would have won (unless I didn't target you and we both targeted the same person, which was unlikely)

[shaddowez]

PV

- I actually screwed up in early game, and was planning on leaving more scum alive. I realized after D2 that would screw me in the end, and tried doing a little better (but still failed pretty hard).