NY 177: Simple Complexity (GAME OVER: Scum Wins!)

[Skybird]

Hi everyone! I'm reading the game thread and will be up to speed on everything as quick as I can.

Nah PeregrineV, I am not scum.

[Skybird]

OK, I haven't finished reading everything yet but I do have a few thoughts.

The mason claim seems hinky to me. We have one person (Marquis) who's claimed being mason with another (Psyche). From what I have read, Psyche doesn't really confirm Marquis' claim. He more dances around the question. Also, I would expect there to be more than 2 masons in a game this size. Now that we are into day 3, if there really are masons in the game, why not have them come forward? That would validate Marquis and Psyche and also give us a few more verified town folks and less places for scum to hide.

I'm puzzled why Oka claimed on day 1 and why he's still alive on day 3. I do have to admit to not reading all of day 1 yet, most of day 2 and all of day 3 so far.

OK, back to reading.

[Skybird]

Titus, what's your case on mirhawk and shawdowez?

[Skybird]

Mirhawk - I replaced RoyalApe so I am the "fifth" person in that neighborhood.

[Skybird]

Very interesting game so far. To be honest, there's so much information it makes it hard to figure out where to start. For now, I'm looking at the people on the Aegor wagon. When you remove the known town and people that have claimed you are left with: zMuffinMan, Shaddowez, Mirhawk, reinoe, and notscience. Since Aeronaut was not on the wagon, I think there's a good chance that one of these 5 are scum. For now, I am removing Mirhawk from that list because I really haven't seen a good argument against him. I would like to vote one of the remaining 4. But I do realize we are down to 2 days and need to decide on who to lynch.

What's the case against TN? My read on him is null at the moment. I've read his ISO and while I don't see anything that jumps out as town, I also do see anything big that makes me think scum.

[Skybird]

TN hasn't posted a lot in the neighborhood. We have 150 posts there so far and 27 posts are from him. Most of the posts from him are discussing various aspects of the game with the others in the 'hood.

[Skybird]

I did PM Wake about RoyalApe posting in the QT. He told me he'd PM RoyalApe. I'm sure we are back to a neighborhood of 4 now.

[Skybird]

From reading the neighborhood thread, it seems Aero had TN and gameplay fooled about being scum. Both TN and gameplay talked about how to save Aero from the lynch. Aero did claim gunsmith in the neighborhood thread. Both TN and gameplay voted for Aero though in the end.

[Skybird]

Of the two wagons, I'm more comfortable with voting Mirhawk.

VOTE: Mirhawk

[Skybird]

I don't know if Mirhawk or PV are scum. It's too late in the day though to put a vote on someone else and I don't want to see the day end in a no lynch. Looking at my notes I see that Mirhawk was in on both d1 and d2 lynches. PV voted for my slot on d1 and didn't vote on d2.

PV, can you tell me why you didn't vote on d2?

[Skybird]

Marquis, why do you feel the Mirhawk slot is probably scum? Reineo, same question.

[Skybird]

Mirhawk, can you share your thinking that went into your votes? I'm trying to figure out who is more scummy between you and PV. It's good that you voted to lynch scum, but how do I know you weren't bussing?

[Skybird]

Hmm, I want to look at something on d2 real quick.

[Skybird]

OK, I wanted to check when the majority of d2 took place. It took place Saturday and Sunday. PV has in his signature that he has limited access on weekends. I was thinking PV not voting for Aero was suspicious, but that thinking isn't correct.

UNVOTE:

p-edit: Thanks reineo. I'm not getting scum vibes from either lynch candidate at the moment. Can we get a wagon going on someone else?

[Skybird]

notscience, why are you voting zMuffin? Is there anyone else you would be willing to vote today?

[Skybird]

I can compromise on a TN lynch. I think he's town though.

VOTE: TN

[Skybird]

Why titus?

[Skybird]

I've already crumbed my role for anyone who cares to look.

[Skybird]

I do think TN is going to flip town and if you want to come after me tomorrow, it's all good. In the meantime though, I'm going to keep looking for scum.

[Skybird]

@PV - my bad, I thought I was putting him at L-1.

[Skybird]

There's two scum in Pere/zmuffin/Majiffy

Look at how impossible it was to wagon them compAres to the ease of the tn5421 Lynch.

Also nice gambit Titus.

tn5421 (LYNCH): Mirhawk, Alina, Shaddowez, OkaPoka, reinoe, Titus, Marquis,(Skybird)

the scum on this wagon could be...

Alina/OkaPoka/Skybird.

VOTE: Skybird

If you think there are two scum between Pere/zmuffin/Majiffy, why are you voting someone from your second group where you feel there is only one scum?

[Skybird]

There's two scum in Pere/zmuffin/Majiffy

Look at how impossible it was to wagon them compAres to the ease of the tn5421 Lynch.

Also nice gambit Titus.

tn5421 (LYNCH): Mirhawk, Alina, Shaddowez, OkaPoka, reinoe, Titus, Marquis,(Skybird)

the scum on this wagon could be...

Alina/OkaPoka/Skybird.

VOTE: Skybird

If you think there are two scum between Pere/zmuffin/Majiffy, why are you voting someone from your second group where you feel there is only one scum?

phone post...
I'm so glad you're able to crawl out of that rock and defend yourself, then go back under that rock. And without commenting on anything that's happeneD over the past three days.

Some of us work for a living reinoe.

[Skybird]

Gameplay, I answered your questions in the 'hood.

[Skybird]

Welcome House! Yes, this game is definitely a time sink.

[Skybird]

VOTE: reinoe

I'm not understanding your vote here. Titus cleared Reinoe in 3141 and then again in 3162. Are you thinking Reinoe is a GF? If so, why?

[Skybird]

Never mind, I saw you switched your vote.

VOTE: Oka

[Skybird]

Does it make since to have a Godfather in this game?

[Skybird]

I think reinoe's town.

Gameplay's play lately has been very weird. He hasn't been back to the neighborhood as far as I can tell, even though he asked me a couple of questions. I even let him know in thread that I answered him in the hood. Hammering just because you want night so you can catch up is bs.

[Skybird]

Gameplay, you reading our hood? I'd like to run a couple of things by you but if you aren't going to read them, I won't waste my time.

[Skybird]

Not bitchin', just trying to see if it's worth my time to visit the hood. I understand about having a life. I have one too.

[Skybird]

reinoe, he hasn't said much of anything. He posted this morning and his last post before that was on 10/3/14.

[Skybird]

I've been looking at the vote counts and one thing that jumps out at me is Shaddowez has been on every town lynch wagon but not on the scum wagon. For that one he didn't vote. I think he deserves some attention.

[Skybird]

I've been looking at the vote counts and one thing that jumps out at me is Shaddowez has been on every town lynch wagon but not on the scum wagon. For that one he didn't vote. I think he deserves some attention.

Please read the game, thanks:

Looking at the Aero iso, you have 2-3 mentions in passing by him.
Your own views are against Aero lynch day1, but not because you think he is town. You went from 1613 (I don't like Aero) to 2032 (Not convinced Aero is scum). Day2 you are around but manage to not be on the wagon.

Notice I stated intent to hammer here. Pysche hammered here. If you look at the timestamp, and the fact that

I don't post during the day (EST) or much on weekends

, you'll see I had no chance to get on the wagon.

PV

- Your own posts cause your logic to fail.

Neighborhoods

marquis/

titus-cop

/

pv

/

texcat

tn5421

/

aero

/

gameplay (Titus cop result)

/skybird

Mirhawk-tracker

/

Aegor-bodyguard?

/

Oka-doc

/Shadowez

Not in hood

Josh

reinoe (Titus cop result)

notscience
Muffin

Elyse
TSO

Majiffy

House
Psyche

marquis claimed masons with Psyche. psyche did not cc.

If you think scum are present in each hood (I do), then that leaves

Marquis

(my PoV) and Shaddow as scum, with the SK amoung you, notsicence, house and

psyche

.

If one hood is scum-free, then another scum in the outside hood group.

start there.

If Marquis claimed masons with Psyche, and they are not

both

scum, why would Psyche not have cced? If they are both scum, then that's four scum (which is the assumption you've been going off of), leaving mine a scum-free neighborhood (as proposed as possible way back when), and the SK any one of the rest of us, again assuming they're II. However, I'm disinclined to imagine that they're both scum, mainly because of this post:

I think Marquis and Psyche are obvscum and Mirhawk has a good chance of being scum.

So figure out where I stand based on that.

A non-countered mason claim is an automatic chain lynch if one is scum, and for another now-confirmed scum to have listed them both as obvscum makes me a little too leery for my liking. On the other hand, if you're so insistent that there's scum in every hood, and Marquis is town, that leaves you as scum. Or would your thoughts all of a sudden change?

And did you not notice that I didn't vote for you at that time? When I said you desreved some attention, I then went and read your ISO. The majority of your posts come across as town to me. So for now, I won't be voting you.

[Skybird]

Ugh, bad spelling. That's deserved in the post above.

[Skybird]

Hey peoples, you know that one player that everyone keeps calling scum but never gets lynched, but then at the end of the game they turn out to be scum? That's PeregrineV. He keeps getting called scum but never gets lynched.

Actually, I was thinking something along these lines earlier tonight. Out of curiosity, I did a VCA, focusing on Peregrine. I found some interesting results - the first, overarching point is that he's

never

been on a wagon that ended up in a lynch. Here's the breakdown:

D1 - Starts with an RVS vote on Elyse (conftown), then moves to Psyche (probtown - Mason) as the second vote. He then moves to tn (conftown), then moves to RoyalApe where he stays through Aegor's lynch (conftown).
D2 - Doesn't vote at all through Aero's lynch (confscum), and gives me a hard time about not being on the Aero wagon in 3812.
D3 - His first vote of the day is on Marquis (probtown - Mason), then moves to a vote on me ({conf}town) where he stays through tn's lynch (conftown).
D4 - First vote of the day is again on Marquis, again where he stays until the Oka lynch (conftown).

He hasn't placed a vote on anybody that hasn't turned up town yet, and since day one has pretty much been planting his vote. Additionally, the people he's been voting haven't generally had wagons forming, so he's able to keep them there without risk of a townie lynch. He also has plausible deniability of never lynching a townie.

After this review and my last post regarding his scum-location, I'm convinced.

VOTE: Pere

The only flaw I see with this is if I am remembering correctly, most of D2 happened on the weekend. At least that is when the Aero wagon really took off. PV has mentioned already that he is LA on the weekends in #3 at the bottom of his posts.

[Skybird]

The only flaw I see with this is if I am remembering correctly, most of D2 happened on the weekend. At least that is when the Aero wagon really took off. PV has mentioned already that he is LA on the weekends in #3 at the bottom of his posts.

Your not doing yourself any good. You're pretty much scheduled to be the next mislynch.

It's all good. Honestly, I'm in way over my head and town is much better off going into LyLo without me in the mix. But hey, if you don't jump in the deep end, how do you ever learn to swim?

[Skybird]

PV, you keep bringing up your neighborhood analysis. If we go with your assumption of one scum in each hood, then the lynch pool should be you, Marquis, and Shaddowez with Shaddow being the obvious lynch. If you feel you are right about this, why is your vote on house instead of Shaddowez?

[Skybird]

OK, I've been reviewing a lot of the thread trying to find answers for some of my questions. When I first replaced in, I commented on the mason thing. I went back and read Marquis' ISO because I wanted to see where/why he claimed. That claim came in post 3155. The interesting thing to me is Marquis didn't have any votes on him. Psyche had two votes on him at the time which was no where near enough votes for a lynch IMO. Why would Marquis claim for Psyche and himself that early? And why does Psyche state that he will let Marquis handle all the "dialog concerning masonry"? 3448

One other thing I noticed while reviewing is in post 3179 Alina/House mentioned that Marquis was sheriff cleared. The only cop I know of in the game was Titus. I've gone through her ISO twice now and don't see anything that clears Marquis.

[Skybird]

PV, you keep bringing up your neighborhood analysis. If we go with your assumption of one scum in each hood, then the lynch pool should be you, Marquis, and Shaddowez with Shaddow being the obvious lynch. If you feel you are right about this, why is your vote on house instead of Shaddowez?

Do not like this post. At all. It latches onto the assumption of 1 scum in each hood, which I feel is a very, very dangerous assumption to make. It sounds like exactly what the scum would want us to think.

I feel it is just as likely as anything for there to be all-town neighborhoods as anything.

This discussion has stagnated. I'm ready to move on. Does anyone have a substantial case to make that hasn't been brought up since I joined? I'm especially looking for analyses of Shaddowez and Skybird. I have a hunch of at least one scum between them, but not sure who. Links to previous cases are fine.

The thing is I don't agree with 1 scum in each hood. But that seems to be the theory that PV is pushing. And if that is what he feels is correct, why isn't he voting for shaddow?

[Skybird]

OK, so I guess we have the mason thing all sorted out. I have a town read on Marquis. Psyche, not so much. Reineo and gameplay are town. I really don't think there are ii roles in this game.

[Skybird]

Marquis, why did you claim mason and why did you choose Psyche?

[Skybird]

After sleeping on it, I have to walk back my no ii's statement just a bit. I don't think we are dealing with a Godfather situation but I feel there's a good chance the SK is ii. My newb gut feeling is having two roles that are ii is a bit too favorable to the dark side.

[Skybird]

Pine, yes, investigation immune.

House, from reading the wiki, an sk is usually either bullet proof or ii. I admit I'm guessing at set up when I state I think the sk is ii.

[Skybird]

Hmm. I'm very seriously considering whether this is a newbie scumslip. Here, Skybird is taking it as a given that there's no Godfather on the scum team, something that Town has hotly debated and is trying to figure out. I'm not seeing a good reason for Skybird to assume otherwise.

The reason I don't think we have a GF in this game is I have played several games that Wake has modded at a different site. From what has been revealed in flips so far I don't see a GF fitting into the set up. If you look through my ISO, you will also see that shortly after I replaced in, I mentioned that I didn't like the masons claim and asked about it because it was something that didn't seem to fit the set up. Since everyone else seemed to believe it, I didn't push it further. Now we see it was a fake claim.

And after reviewing what I just typed, I'm sure you will see that as scummy too. But I'm not going to change it because this is town me trying to figure out who the scum and sk are.

[Skybird]

Feel better soon Marquis.

[Skybird]

Yeah, but Town wouldn't be worried about that trap. They've got zero to lose by just saying "Nope, not masons, wtf are you talking about?"

It's not a trap to Town

Vote: Psyche

that's moon logic, man

no one has anything to

lose

from saying "Nope, not masons"
but look at all there is to gain

You claim you ran with this because you wanted adventure and had stuff to gain. What have you gained that has helped town?

[Skybird]

If I remember correctly, Psyche only had 2 votes on him when Marquis claimed and this happened on day 2 when we still needed several people for a lynch. How is that a legit wagon?

[Skybird]

notscience, in newb games you ask about lynching all liars. Why shouldn't our next two lynches be Psyche and Marquis?

[Skybird]

I did go back and check on when the claim happened. It was on day 3 when town needed 8 to lynch.

[Skybird]

I agree House, but since everyone in the newb games always say lynch all liars I'd like to hear what ns has to say about this situation.

[Skybird]

Yes, I agree that LAL is bad strategies because sometimes town does need to lie to keep info from scum. But if you disagree with it in newb games, you are auto scum. lol

Psyche, other than saying you aren't scum, how about a defense on why we shouldn't lynch you?

[Skybird]

Marquis, come back and tell your side of the story.

[Skybird]

Psyche, do you have a link to a scum game of yours?

[Skybird]

VOTE: Psyche

For now. I still want to hear Marquis' explanation for claiming masons.

[Skybird]

House, what was your read on zMuffinMan before he replaced out?

[Skybird]

I was leaning scum on Muffin, but Pine seems to be town at the moment.

[Skybird]

^ not to mention majiffy's posts about pv are very limited- only interacted basically to say "no, vote tree/marquis", always downplaying the idea of a pv lynch in comparison to other lynches, and never directly gave any sort of read about pv while joking around with him, which signals a comfortable scumpartner interaction

Yeah, if he talks to me too much then I'll figure out he is scum.
Majiffy also had no interest in lynching Masons.

Vote: Marquis

OK, Jiffy, let's see money where your mouth is.

Get it past 4 votes and I'm in.

You won't vote your top scumread unless someone else runs them up to more than four votes for you?

Needs to be a viable wagon to consider leaving a viable wagon.
Or are you new here?

I went back and found this post by PV. I really think there's scum between Psyche and Marquis. Maybe not both, but definitely one. That's the only way the mason claim makes sense. I really want everyone to weigh in and tell everyone what they think of Psyche's responses since he outed the fake claim.

[Skybird]

UNVOTE:

Marquis, from what I remember, PV has been the one pushing scum in each neighborhood.

[Skybird]

You would be wrong Pine. I'm not scum. Have you read my ISO?

[Skybird]

Pine, what evidence do you have to support your assumption of a GF.

[Skybird]

How do you expect to solve this game if you don't make an assumption or two?

Reinoe, what specifically is scummy?

[Skybird]

After sleeping on it, I have to walk back my no ii's statement just a bit.

I don't think we are dealing with a Godfather situation but I feel there's a good chance the SK is ii.

My newb gut feeling is having two roles that are ii is a bit too favorable to the dark side.

How is the above confidently stating there is no GF?

[Skybird]

assuming Godfather

never do this

Holy shit, this in spades, people.

I know I've been don't give away from this site for a couple of years, and common doctrine changes, but you don't discard a Cop innocent until they either have a confirmed scum slip, contradicting investigator (ie Tracker following them to a body,) or it's LYLO. Jesus, that's not even that complicated.

Majiffy leading the questioning of innocent results practically confirms them.

House, you have precisely one post to unvote a Cop inno, or you get my vote

Pine, here you agree with Marquis that you can't assume a Godfather. You are also suspicious of me because I'm assuming that there isn't one. How are you supposed to resolve a game if you never consider whether that role is in the game?

[Skybird]

So that's your entire case on me? You are making an assumption on me because I made an assumption. That's pretty weak sauce.

What's your case on PV?

[Skybird]

You keep telling me I'm sk hunting but that's bs. I'm trying to hunt scum. How exactly am I sk hunting and not scum hunting?

Right now I'm trying to figure out if Psyche and Marquis are scum, if one of them is scum and if so which one, or if neither of them is scum. So why do you keep bringing up the sk?

[Skybird]

Scum's too close to winning to not take the opportunity for a justifiable mislynch. As that didn't happen, it's a pretty strong point against him

Who's been close to being hammered that he didn't vote for?

[Skybird]

You keep telling me I'm sk hunting but that's bs. I'm trying to hunt scum. How exactly am I sk hunting and not scum hunting?

Right now I'm trying to figure out if Psyche and Marquis are scum, if one of them is scum and if so which one, or if neither of them is scum. So why do you keep bringing up the sk?

How about answering these questions?

[Skybird]

Reineo, you unvoted Psyche. So what are you going to do now?

[Skybird]

VOTE: Pine

He's scum. I also think one of Psyche or Marquis is scum. PV is also scum.

[Skybird]

VOTE: Pine

He's scum. I also think one of Psyche or Marquis is scum. PV is also scum.

You're saying that PV and possibly Psyche are scum, both of which have wagons forming on them already. Why would you vote for the third option, rather than voting someone with a wagon and just pushing for a future lynch?

Because after all the interaction with Pine I am fully convinced he is scum. I don't think anyone will listen if I don't vote for him.

[Skybird]

Holy Hannah!!!! I thought my vote was the hammer.

Sadly not, the fakemason reveal derailed the Pere wagon.

P-Edit: Sorry Sky, thought notty was still voting Psyche, wagon sizes are about the same according to this VC.

No worries Shaddow.

Why is Pine's vote on Psyche then?

[Skybird]

I've got no problem switching to PV.

House, Pine is seriously one of your town reads? I'm voting him because I'm doing my best to figure this all out and he's doing nothing to help except accuse me of sk hunting. When asked to show how I'm sk hunting instead of scum hunting, he tells me to read the "fucking thread". Is it an OMGUS vote? Maybe. But that doesn't make me scum. It makes me a frustrated player.

[Skybird]

Reineo and Pine, you are both wrong. I'm going to lmao at you all when I flip town.

[Skybird]

Reineo and Pine, you are both wrong. I'm going to lmao at you all when I flip town.

Instead of saying you're townie could you do some townie things?

I feel I have been. You are the one reading scum into everything I do. I've been trying to figure out the Marquis/Psyche thing because I'm having a hard time believing they are both town. That led to Pine calling me scum. So what do you suggest I do?

[Skybird]

If Skybird flips Town, I will be most wroth at the display of anti-Town behavior

That said, I'm pretty confident in a red flip

And what specifically has been anti town? If you read my ISO, you know that I am new to this game. So please help me by pointing out the anti town stuff so I can improve my play.

[Skybird]

Your case consists of me making an assumption that you disagree with.

[Skybird]

Fine, I suck as a player. You've been playing since 2011. I started 3 months ago. Sorry I'm not up to your exacting standards, but I'm trying. When you started riding my case I was trying to figure out the whole mason thing. I can't believe someone who is town would go along with it and I also don't see it being a reasonable claim for another town person to make either. Now if you'd like to discuss this particular issue civilly, great. If not, good night.

[Skybird]

Last time: even if you think Psyche is scum, the best course of action is to lynch one of me/PV/Shadow (last members of neighborhoods whose other members were town) today.

i was about to replace out of this game like my others due to rl and health problems.
but i'm going to do this first:
1) i claimed masons with psyche because i was damn sure that pv was scum, and i had a hard townread on psyche. i didn't want any distractions from the pv wagon which is what appeared to be forming
2) i was paranoid earlier, but psyche's recent posting makes me confident in my townread on him anyway
3) psyche is a distraction anyway; scum is trying to redirect attention away from the neighborhoods, which there is sure to be scum in (remember these people saying "there's scum in the neighborhoods" and now saying "nah there totally isn't" once they're whittled down)
now i'm going to ask
given that my activity from now on will be extremely limited, with a focus on moderating my games
should i stay or should i go

I would prefer to lynch Psyche before he weasels out of suspicion and kills me or the other people who scumread him, but I could compromise on PV.

But seriously, let's do Psyche today. There's plenty of support for PV for the next day, and I'm legit concerned that Psyche will active lurk out of this position

In the first two posts, Marquis is trying really hard to steer us away from Psyche. For that I'm going to put my vote back on Psyche.

VOTE: Psyche

[Skybird]

Look, I'm not on your case. Everyone starts somewhere. You just seem to refuse to actually read my points against you.

I'm not saying you're a bad person or player for what you're doing. Just new

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Honestly, I did read all your posts. I just don't see your case. I'm sure it's a mixture of me being new and knowing my alignment. But let's leave this for post game. I don't want to derail the thread again.

[Skybird]

Unvote
Vote: Peregrine V

Well, the lynch I want isn't going through, I'll compromise for my second pick

Skybird, I've been having nagging gut feelings all day suggesting that you might be newTown with a really, really scummy-looking playstyle. Let's get a claim from PV, then lynch him

PV, you're at L-1 with lots of support for a hammer, claim and let's move on

OK, this is my intent to hammer PV.

UNVOTE:

[Skybird]

Of the two wagons, I'm more comfortable with voting Mirhawk.

VOTE: Mirhawk

I don't know if Mirhawk or PV are scum. It's too late in the day though to put a vote on someone else and I don't want to see the day end in a no lynch. Looking at my notes I see that Mirhawk was in on both d1 and d2 lynches. PV voted for my slot on d1 and didn't vote on d2.

PV, can you tell me why you didn't vote on d2?

Marquis, why do you feel the Mirhawk slot is probably scum? Reineo, same question.

Mirhawk, can you share your thinking that went into your votes? I'm trying to figure out who is more scummy between you and PV. It's good that you voted to lynch scum, but how do I know you weren't bussing?

OK, I wanted to check when the majority of d2 took place. It took place Saturday and Sunday. PV has in his signature that he has limited access on weekends. I was thinking PV not voting for Aero was suspicious, but that thinking isn't correct.

UNVOTE:

p-edit: Thanks reineo. I'm not getting scum vibes from either lynch candidate at the moment. Can we get a wagon going on someone else?

I think my thought process is pretty clear in the posts above. We were getting close to DL and only had two wagons going. (post 3943) I was using VCA to try and determine which of the two were more likely scum.

[Skybird]

So what's the proper amount of time to wait after someone asks you to vote for someone else?

[Skybird]

And still Psyche and Marquis are alive. Why?

So still alive:
Pine
Reinoe
House
Shaddowez
Skybird
Marquis
Psyche-replacement

[Skybird]

In post 720, Majiffy stated that he thought that day's lynch should be either Aero, Psyche, or Tree. Would Majiffy be so bold as to list all his scum buddies in one post?

[Skybird]

House, when you first replaced in you scum read Psyche in post 4156. Do you still read Psyche as scum?

[Skybird]

I’ve been looking at Majiffy and his interactions to try and see if there’s any slips to indicate his scum partners. He pushes for a Tree/Marquis lynch from the beginning of the game. (Post 219, 362) He also thinks Psyche is scum. He pushes for both of them well into the game. (post 3320, 3347) Marquis claimed masons with Psyche in post 3155.

Marquis explained claiming masons by saying he didn’t want to derail the PV wagon that was going at the time of the claim. (Psyche had 2 votes at that point.) I think the real explanation is he was trying to get Majiffy off their backs.

Does anyone have experience with a scum Majiffy? Does he normally bus his partners?

[Skybird]

House, when you first replaced in you scum read Psyche in post 4156. Do you still read Psyche as scum?

Skybird, what do you guys discuss during the Day phase in the chat?

I have no idea what you are talking about Reinoe.

[Skybird]

Oh, the neighborhood. Duh. We don't talk about anything. Gameplay and I were the last two people in it. The last post is from me on 10-14-14 where I asked Gameplay if he was still playing. He never answered.

[Skybird]

I agree. The mason claim has bugged me since I replaced in. Psyche wasn't anywhere near being lynched and then his responses to the claim were wierd.

[Skybird]

i really don't like how you two are generating mass paranoia

i mostly don't like in particular house's comment on me in 4829. that post ruins any townread i had on him previously. it's like he's trying to bring me back into the lynch pool, when no i wasn't considered scummy prior to the mason claim (that was just majiffy pushing me hard, who once again, flipped scum [iirc tn stopped scumreading and started townreading me unrelated to that])

and then 4842 is like lolwtf talking for the sake of talking

i just don't think house is town and with 7 (?) left the chance of my read finally being right is pretty good (sorry pv yes i regret the neighborhood assumption)

OK, other than scum-reading House, who else is hitting your scumdar?

[Skybird]

That's a good question. Here's a better one - why aren't you voting one of them if you think they should be dead?

reinoe is cop-cleared, and considering gameplay was actually innocent, we can assume that Titus was correct about him as well. Assuming best case scenario, we're looking for 3 more scum out of the remaining 6 players. Since I know it's not me, that actually makes it 3 out of the remaining 5. I'm going to play the lower odds here, and try to look for town out of the group.

I was iffy on House's slot while Alina was in it, but that was mostly because of Alina's play compared to other games I'd been in with her, not because she'd done anything outright scummy. Considering she site-flaked, it's possible she had other stuff going on. I've also liked House's play for the most part, so I'm still willing to consider him town.

I'm torn between Pine/Skybird as the other town. I actually really like what Pine's been doing, but didn't like either of his predecessors at all. On the other hand, I've not been impressed by Skybird or her predecessors, but nothing has really struck me as particularly scummy, either. It's possible that both of them are scum if either Marquis/Psyche aren't, but I highly doubt that.

All that being said, that leaves both Marquis and Psyche in my scum pile, and I'm willing to vote either. I actually like my Marquis vote based on the post I made the other day. Does anyone else have any thoughts on that, btw?

I really haven't found anything in my re-reads to shed any more light on the masons claim. Shaddowez feels town and Reinoe is cop-cleared. I don't like Alina's ISO but House has been pretty town in my mind. Pine is null and I know I'm town. The best vote IMO is for Marquis or Psyche. Since the Psyche slot is currently empty,

VOTE: Marquis

[Skybird]

Psyche, why did you confess that the mason claim was fake?

[Skybird]

From the game set-up post, Scum win when their numbers equal or exceed town. We have 7 people alive - 1 SK, assuming 2 scum, and 4 townies. If we mislynch and hit a townie, we will have 6 people alive - 1 SK, 2 scum and 3 townies. Then we have to hope that the SK hits a scum and scum pick the SK to have a chance at a win. If that is correct, town has to hit scum or SK today or we are pretty much done.

Another thing, Marquis has had two votes on him for over 24 hours. If he was town, do you think he'd still be alive?

[Skybird]

If they came in and made naked votes, yes it would be really obvious and not something they would do. I think it's been long enough that they could have come in and made some kind of post stating why they were voting for him and then voted him.

[Skybird]

No worries Pine, we have some time yet. We definitely need your input.

[Skybird]

Can you explain your House vote reinoe?

[Skybird]

Actually, Psyche flipping Town would suggest Marquis!Town. I don't see scum faking Masons with a Townie. High risk low reward

I thought that was implied as the inverse of my statement. Also, pretty sure I said as much the previous day, after the fakeclaimery was revealed

Did you not read this post?

Yes, and I disagree with it entirely.

Psyche being town doesn't preclude Marquis scum. Psyche scum doesn't preclude Marquis town. If the town wants to lynch Psyche that's fine but I'm going to be on the sidelines saying that it's something the scum need to sort at every opportunity.

But the problem is scum has not sorted this claim. Marquis made the claim on Day 3. Both SK and scum have had two opportunities to hit one of them. It hasn't happened. Do we wait until town loses to realize that scum/sk aren't going to sort it?

[Skybird]

I really don't know what to make of this game. None of it makes sense. Marquis, I know you are claiming to be playing to your wincon, but the fake mason claim just doesn't make any sense at all. Maybe I just haven't played in enough games yet, but I haven't seen anyone fake a claim like that yet.

[Skybird]

As reinoe pointed out, even with a mass claim we still have to put the puzzle pieces together correctly. Speaking only for myself, I've never been in a game with a mass claim and don't know if I can figure it out.

[Skybird]

Psyche, who do you feel is scum?

House, when you look at Pine's slot and all the posts from the people that have been in the game, do you still feel Pine is town? I was null-scum on zMuffinMan.

[Skybird]

so here's what i'm thinking about the gamestate. we most likely have:

4 town / 2 mafia / 1 sk

and I think the town is

Marquis
reinoe
Psyche
Pine/House

with the remaining two,

Skybird
shaddowez

as PoE'd scum.

With PV's townflip, if shaddowez and I are both town, that means we started with 2 four-person all town neighborhoods, which once again I'm finding hard to believe the NRG would approve.

I just... don't see a reason why shaddow is getting by right now. Nobody seems to have a townread of any sort on him, yet they're content to ignore him and lynch out of other, more risky options.

Again... why? Why is everyone just ignoring the neighborhood deal now? Why is everyone ignoring the prospect of a shaddowez wagon (including shaddowez himself, as if he doesn't want to draw too much attention to it) when unlike with the rest of the players in this game it feels like literally nobody has a strong townread on him (pretty sure everyone else is being strongly townread by at least one person)?

The problem I have with your analysis is you were so sure PV was scum based on your neighborhood theory. PV flipped town. And you are also ignoring the fact that you are the last one in your neighborhood without someone flipping scum.

[Skybird]

No, I'm just trying to point out to everyone the flaws I see in someone else's logic. I feel we are at a critical point in the game. Everything needs to be examined closely. What do you think of Shadowez post about Pine?

[Skybird]

What do you think of Shadowez post about Pine?

Why don't you share your thoughts on Shaddowez' post about Pine.

I know some of those quotes are from Pine's argument with me. I don't trust my read on Pine because of that argument which is why I am asking for other's input. I did have a leaning scum read on zMuffin. Pine has been more town sounding.

Two questions for you reinoe. What do you think of Pine and why do you think scum/sk haven't taken out Psyche and Marquis?

[Skybird]

2)This question is time wasting WIFOM and will not be answered.

I disagree. You keep saying you want to leave Marquis/Psyche to be taken care of by the mafia/sk. To me, you are derailing lynch attempts on both individuals. Why?

[Skybird]

Yes, Aero was in my neighborhood.

[Skybird]

He's going with Marquis' theory of 1 scum in a neighborhood.

[Skybird]

Oh, you remembered. I haven't had my coffee yet this morning.

I'm seriously at a loss for which way to go.

[Skybird]

OK, my vote on marquis isn't doing anything.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Psyche

[Skybird]

Since there wasn't a mafia kill it seems that all we have left to do is hunt the SK.

Wake, I'll be V/LA Thursday through Saturday.

[Skybird]

OK, I was hoping that we didn't have scum left.

Pine can you summarize your post?

[Skybird]

I understand everyone's hesitation about me but I am neither SK or scum. I crumbed my role shortly after replacing in. If you have questions or want me to explain things I've posted, ask.

I've been reading ISO's of people that were SK killed, looking to see if there is a common name that everyone suspected. I've only gotten through TSO and Texcat. One post from TSO stood out, post 2436. He stated that Marquis is a deceptive scum player and his strong suit is being very natural. Texcat also had the scum team as being Aero, Farside, and Tree/Marquis in post 2229 and then voted for Tree/Marquis in post 2370.

[Skybird]

I'm OK with a mass claim if everyone else wants to.

[Skybird]

Hi House. I've played a few games here already.

[Skybird]

I agree with Marquis.

VOTE: shaddowez

[Skybird]

I counted 3 votes for Shaddowez. I don't think Wake's post to start the day was correct. He had 6 alive and 4 to lynch. But I think there is only 5 of us left alive.

[Skybird]

Marquis, I'm town and wasn't going to quick hammer even if House had not unvoted. Now I have to figure out which of you two is scum.

[Skybird]

Wake, you have vote count 7.1 copied in where VC 6.4 should be. Could you fix that please?

[Skybird]

That's the big question.

When you look at the lynch VC's, there's at least one where Jiffy voted Marquis as a lone vote or with one other person. That's one thing I want to look at again.

[Skybird]

Thanks Wake!

[Skybird]

No worries marquis. We have time. What's your assignment in?

[Skybird]

Seriously, it's OK. I don't want to rush through this last day only to screw it up.

[Skybird]

House, what are your thoughts?

[Skybird]

Thanks House.

Marquis, I'm waiting on anything else you have to say.

[Skybird]

House's unvote definitely feels town to me. He unvoted even before I got back to the thread after the day started. I also don't think scum would come in and throw down a vote right at the start of day. Scum would want to hold off until town voted for town.

Marquis pointing out that there could be a quick hammer seems town. But it could also have been scum trying to get out of being lynched.

[Skybird]

I re-read Alina's ISO and I don't see scum there. I also checked wiki to see what it said about the bomb role as I've not seen that role yet. House's play and claim seem genuine to me.

[Skybird]

Thanks for the link House.

I checked Marquis' activity and he hasn't posted since the 20th. Come back and play Marquis so we can finish this game one way or the other.

[Skybird]

Why unvote Marquis?

[Skybird]

Marquis, as you get to know me better, you will find that being polite and considerate come naturally to me. The posts you are reading as appeasing is me being myself. But I'm sure you will read this as scummy as well.

[Skybird]

In looking at the vote counts, Majiffy votes Tree/Marquis most of day 1 and all of day 2.

Somewhere between vote count 1.15 and 1.16, Marquis drops his Tree alt.

On day 3 Psyche has 2 votes at 3.1. Between 3.1 and 3.2 Marquis claims masons with Psyche. After that, Majiffy never votes for Marquis again. Majiffy was scum. Why after saying he thought the mason claim was fake, did Majiffy never vote for either one of them? It would have made sense for Majiffy to continue voting Marquis. But he didn't. Also, Marquis claimed that he and Psyche crumbed that they were masons. But when asked for the evidence, there are only 2 posts. And I'm having a bit of trouble finding them again.

Another thing that stands out looking at the vote counts is the number of times that Marquis and Psyche voted for the same person. There are 45 vote counts and 14 times that Marquis and Psyche vote for the same person. That's 31.1% It seems strange to me. Looking at the lynch votes in particular, the only one they are both on is Aero.

[Skybird]

House, I was looking at all of the vote counts, not just the one I asked Wake to fix.

[Skybird]

House, one of the reasons I want to see your thoughts on Marquis is to see if you can provide good points. Scum has to manufacture their reads on town players. But Marquis doesn't think it's important to know what you are thinking about who is scum. Why would that be?

When you read Marquis in regards to you, he town reads you and then flips and leans scum on you all within the last 5-6 pages. When you didn't react to his scum reading you, he is scum reading me. He even says he won't be able to read the game state any other way.

For you both, the whole reason I'm willing to be patient about this is I don't want to screw up. I know if I put my vote on the wrong person, scum will quick hammer. So I'm asking questions and reviewing things trying to figure it all out.

[Skybird]

House, yes, Tree was an alt of Marquis'. So he's really been in the game the whole time.

[Skybird]

Yes, I did.

[Skybird]

Vote Count
1.1 Majiffy votes Tree
1.2 Majiffy votes Tree
1.3 Majiffy votes Tree, Tree and Psyche vote Majiffy
1.4 Majiffy votes Tree, Tree and Psyche vote Majiffy (Tree has 5 votes)
1.5 Majiffy votes Tree, Tree and Psyche vote Majiffy (Tree has 5 votes)
1.6 Majiffy votes Aero, Psyche votes Aero, Tree votes Titus (Tree has 4 votes)
1.7 Majiffy votes Aero, Psyche votes Aero, Tree votes Titus (Tree has 4 votes)
1.8 Psyche unvotes, Tree votes Royal Ape, Majiffy votes Tree
1.9 Psyche no votes, Tree votes Royal Ape, Majiffy votes Tree
1.10 Majiffy votes Tree, Tree votes Oka, Psyche no vote
1.11 Majiffy votes Tree, Tree votes Oka, Psyche no vote
1.12 Tree votes Texcat, Psyche votes notscience, Majiffy votes Titus
1.13 Tree votes Texcat, Psyche votes notscience, Majiffy votes Titus
1.14 Tree and Psyche vote Texcat, Majiffy votes Titus (Tree has 1 vote)
1.15 Majiffy votes Tree, Tree and Psyche vote Texcat (Tree has 4 votes)
1.16 Tree(now Marquis) votes Texcat, Psyche votes Oka, Jiffy votes Marquis (he has 4 votes)
1.17 Marquis and Psyche vote Texcat, Jiffy votes Marquis (he has 3 votes)
1.18 Marquis and Psyche vote Aegor, Jiffy votes Marquis (he has 1 vote)
1.19 Marquis votes Texcat, Psyche votes Aegor, Jiffy votes Marquis (he has 1 vote) Aegor lynched
2.1 Jiffy votes Marquis, Maquis votes Aero, Psyche no vote
2.2 Jiffy votes Marquis, Maquis votes Aero, Psyche no vote
2.3 Jiffy votes Marquis, Maquis votes Aero, Psyche no vote
2.4 Jiffy votes Marquis, Maquis votes Aero, Psyche hammers Aero Aero lynched
3.1 Marquis votes Shaddowez, Jiffy, Psyche no vote (Psyche has 2 votes)
3.2 Marquis and Psyche vote PV, Jiffy no vote (Psyche has 1 vote)
3.3 Marquis and Psyche vote PV, Jiffy no vote (Psyche has 0 votes, Marquis has 1 vote)
3.4 Marquis votes PV, Psyche no vote, Majiffy votes Mirhawk
3.5 Marquis votes PV, Psyche no vote, Majiffy votes Mirhawk
3.6 Marquis votes PV, Psyche no vote, Majiffy votes Mirhawk
3.7 Marquis votes TN, Psyche votes PV, Majiffy votes Mirhawk
3.8 Marquis and Psyche vote PV, Majiffy votes Mirhawk
3.9 Marquis votes TN, Psyche votes PV, Majiffy votes Mirhawk TN lynched
4.1 Marquis and Psyche vote Majiffy, Majiffy votes Mirhawk
4.2 Marquis and Psyche vote Majiffy, Majiffy votes Mirhawk
4.3 Marquis and Psyche both voting for Majiffy. Majiffy votes Oka. Majiffy Stabbed. Oka lynched
5.1 Marquis votes PV, Psyche no vote
5.2 Marquis votes PV, Psyche no vote
5.3 Marquis votes PV, Psyche votes Reinoe
5.4 Marquis votes PV, Psyche votes Reinoe
5.5 Marquis votes PV, Psyche votes Reinoe PV self-hammers
6.1 marquis votes House, Psyche no vote
6.2 Marquis votes Shaddowez, Psyche no vote
6.3 Marquis votes Shaddowez, Psyche no vote
6.4 Marquis and Psyche vote Shaddowez Psyche lynched
7.1 Marquis votes Shaddowez Shaddowez lynched


I had this in a spreadsheet but it didn't translate over as well as I wanted. I have wondered why Marquis dropped his Tree alt. Part of me thinks he did it because a lot of people were scum reading him as Tree. That's why I was making a note of how many votes Tree/Marquis had.

[Skybird]

The conflict I am having right now is that you have been portrayed by Wake as needing to be handled with kid gloves, leading me to believe that you were inexperienced and... basically... fragile.

When I learned your USMB handle, it explained a bit, but you are generally a borderline inactive player over there from what I've seen of your play, so your VCA came as a bit of a surprise to me.

I'm starting to wonder if you are hiding some mastermind scheming behind that polite exterior, lol.

Why did you ask Marquis the reason he unvoted?

Not going to talk about USMB here. PM me if you want on that subject.

No mastermind here. Just a player struggling to learn the game and not blow it for town after we've made a good comeback.

I'd like to see Marquis' response before I answer your question.

[Skybird]

Here's where I'm at. I think Marquis is scum. People were reading Tree as scummy and I think that's why he switched out to his (what I assume is) his regular account. The fake masons claim never made sense to me. In the newbie games the two rules everyone goes by is don't lie if you are town and don't fake claim. I do realize there are times lying is acceptable but on the whole, I agree that lying isn't the way to go.

I've been reading through a few Majiffy games to try and get a feel for him as a player. Everyone says that they don't think Majiffy would list all of his scum partners in one post. But it's already been proven that he at least listed 2 out of the three. I think he listed all three and probably received a bunch of crap for it in the scum thread.

So why else would Marquis claim with Psyche like that? My read on Psyche is someone who was not confident in their scum role. This is because for most of the game, he wanted to replace out. I think his scum buddy Marquis claimed masons to give him cover and protect him. I think Psyche outed the fake claim to make us think that Marquis was town.

House, my intention is to vote Marquis tomorrow. I'd like to give Marquis the chance to respond and for you to let me know what you think.

[Skybird]

Crap. Sorry town. I did my best. GG House.

[Skybird]

And gg all the scum players Majiffy, Psyche, and Aeronaut.

I'll have to watch you House. I didn't think you would kill Pine if you were scum because it did look like someone tried to set you up.

[Skybird]

All you want to do is save your own skin.

yes i think i have said that many times

i mean if i die we lose

and we've come so far

so yeah

manipulative!-marquis!-experienced!-scum! theory time: do you (skybird or house, i don't fucking care anymore) really think i would be as open about trying to survive as i have been this day, if i were actually scum

?

Yes, you were fighting so hard to survive it looked like you were trying to preserve a scum victory. Then when you pretty much said that you wouldn't be able to see me as anything but scum, I figured I was right about House being town and you being scum. Sorry, I was wrong.

[Skybird]

House, you really seemed to be playing your town game. Now I know I have to discard my meta on you. :p

[Skybird]

So don't be surprised if I read you as scum from here on out. lol

[Skybird]

yeah I've come to learn that survivalism isn't indicative of alignment, how the player presents it is

I shouldn't be continuing to talk theory though when I messed up lylo though. I should give players less leeway in the future and not just hand out townreads if players say uninformed-sounding things.

pedit speaking of offsite experience it was really frustrating that it was refused :/ just curious as to why

Not sure what you mean? Do you mean when I refused to talk to House about USMB?

[Skybird]

Sorry Marquis, I don't remember you asking about it. I thought House brought up USMB when he was talking about me not being an active player over there. I told him I didn't want to talk about it because my posting pattern (or lack there of) is more personal reasons.

The thing I couldn't get past was the fake mason claim. I'm still spending a lot of time reading newbie games and all the SE's and IC's constantly tell us new players to not fake claim. My question is do players do fake claims a lot outside of the newbie games?

[Skybird]

One of the things that made this game hard for me was replacing in approximately 150 pages in and having not played with most of the people in the game. But I've learned a lot from this game.

[Skybird]

No worries Marquis. I made my share of mistakes too.

[Skybird]

You did a good job as sk Shaddowez. I didn't suspect you at all until we got down to few numbers. Then it was more PoE.

[Skybird]

Thanks Wake for modding. I enjoyed playing with everyone and hope to see you all in another game soon.

[Skybird]

Hey Wake, I'd like to pre-in for your next game.