NY 177: Simple Complexity (GAME OVER: Scum Wins!)

[ika]

already i can point out one major flaw in that this game is severly scum sided.

if you run worst case scnaios (as you always should) town will lose its majority in one cycle

lynch town, triple kill on 3 separate towns 12:4:4:4 and town has lost their one key thing: majority. add in the fact if all 3 sides know that there isnt a wagon on one of their buddies, its VERY easy to just make a huge ass wagon out of nowhere. even on a single scum its easy to just pile on a bunch of votes out of nowhere.

ive played 3-sided factions before and its is basicly a reverse mafia game where towns NEED to rely on crosskills to have a shot.

if you wan to run this setup for real you better knwo how fast it can (and will be exploited) cus just looking at frameworks, i can break it easitly by its own devise

[ika]

You've only seen the bare bones, ika.

Not the PRs and abilities to be used.

your missing the point.

no matter what PRs or abilites you have, you always should run worst case scnario. you assume that PRs and abilities will counteract it, and yes it most likely will but what happens if in the 1% that it doesnt and what i shows happens (the town lynch+triple kill)? the balance is ruined and town lost what is argubly their most powerful weapon: the living majority

i have seen this kind of setup framework used before and it does not bold well. your missing the fact that i am an offsiter where the setups were mechanics and prs alone.

so if you want to ignore the adivce of EXPERINCED mods and that it can be broken very easily then go right ahead.

[ika]

wake i know this setup already and can esitmate half of them.

there was even dicussion in the open setup about this with lamma how "nk turns into guilties" is inherently scumsided

i could run so many base scnarios with a basic idea of even simple prs on how fast it can be favored to one side

[ika]

1)I think you rush to judgment far too quickly. I have been modding games for at least 6 years.

2)Do you honestly think I haven't been carefully writing and rewriting this game for the last 6 months?

3)You come in here, look at the very bare bones of this game in the making, and you make the worst assumptions imaginable.

4) Have some faith, ika.

1) and i have seen (and played) setups that are even more elaborate then you have been showing me right now on bare bones.
-ever played 5-sided mafia?
-ever played reverse mafia?
-ever played multi-sidied mafia where one scum team gets decisions?
-ever played games where theres twists half way through that can change the entire aspect of a game?
-ever played with disguisers (take a persons account and identity), ventriloquist (takes the account and post under it as well as their own), a role that changes based on another persons decision (ive played it and its fun),
-ever played a game where everyone is under one account.

i have extensive ideas and experience with setups and have seen many broken by its own mechanics and role. one game i was in got broken b/c someone figured out the entire role list. just by guessing a few things. even the mod themself didnt anticipate it.

2) just b/c you have been doing it for 6 month does not mean someone else can find that one loophole to break it into 2. it takes one fault for an entire setup to be broken. even setups i have done have been broken b/c i missed something when i though i had everything covered.

3) thats what you need to do, look at how fast one faction can lose.
-echoing it: assuming town has no killing roles alone already, myslynch town+3 seprate kills on town = town lost majority. now add in the fact that scums cant "kill" each other. in basicly 4 cycles, town could be elminated and all the scums now have to sit there being "well now what"
-now lets add in that town has vig of some sort: if they shoot town as well then thats another lost town and now scums (conjoint) are in majority and town is now not only minority, but the UNINFORMED minority (double whammy) and now they HAVE to rely on scums (now what town should EVER have to do) to even have a chance of a comeback
-so if scums get a "guilty" whats the benefit besides that info? X goes "Y is Z" town should go lynch X then lynch Y. scums have no incentive to give it out.
-You should always assume worst case and see where it can be balanced out. this entire thing was dicussed in a thread you made as well

4) im jsut pointing out things that will already be a problem on barebones level.

pedit: i think your still missing what shes saying.......

[ika]

1)You know, I get it. You're being unreasonably negative, and trying to create any way to basically say the idea is crap, when you don't even know the idea I have in kind.

2)I really should just delete your posts for just being one massive buzzkill.

3)I think people like you are part of the reason why some people don't want to share any idea about future games, because all you'll do is home in on the negative or what you perceive to be weaknesses, without stepping back and realizing that you don't even know what's going to be played.

4)Since you don't know, you should hold off and think "hm, maybe Wake will use this or that to remedy this potential problem or that." You think I must be pretty stupid, ika.

5)If you want to keep finding all the faults you think you see, without giving me any benefit of the doubt whenit comes to modding,

6)I'll have no problem deleting your posts here.

1) not really? im just giving MPOV and my opinionas well as my experince, thanks for the misrep though
2) thats just abusive and jerk and would make you no better than what your calling me then
3) i have enough of an idea that i would have a reasonsable expectation of what you are planning, that fact that you again, misrep my intentions is telling. im stating my opinion. you take it as an attack.
4) quote me where i said you are stupid otherwise that is balintent misrep and wrong interpritation.
5) you can also just not respond to it and acknowledge it instead of ridiculing (and misrepping) on it like you are doing right now
6) again thats just being a flat out dick and abuse of power and would make you no better then the people that your riddcule on (if not it would make you lower then them to go to that)

pedit:

silver+marqu say exactly what im saying. im just saying it in a more blunt manner

[ika]

It's pissing me off. He and Marquis think I'm inexperienced and stupid, in that I don't have there wherewithal to formulate and run a very large game. They need to stop treating me as if they know me when they don't. If they're going to piss on my words when I say I've been running games for over six years, then they're being insensitive, and striking nerves.

what you think we are saying/portraying vs what we are saying/portaying are 2 different things wake.

pedit: wake seriously, your still missing what we are saying. your just going "AHLALALALALALALALALALALALAL" right now.

if you read it witht the idea we are trying to HELP YOU, then you could understand but if you just want to be like that then fine.

[ika]

im just giving you some blunt truth FMPOV and my firsthand experience.

if you want to disregard it you more then welcomed to. but don't go around misrepping my intentions and what im saying

[ika]

wake im not even going to give a proper response to it.

quote me where i state you are incompetent as a mod.
quote me where i state you are stupid
quote me where i state ANYTHING you just said.

unless if you can you are just misrepping and adhoming my points.

i understand you cant take criticism so im going to be a better man and just end it here with the simple fact that unless if you can directly quote me on anything that you are thinking i'm saying, you are just biased and ust spinning a tale up

[ika]

implying =/= i am

i never once implied it and the fact you are so biased to think that is your own problem.

i came here to give you advice and all you want to do is just ridicule me and misrep my intentions.

really i could rest my entire case in point by one quote from you

Wolfie, I can't reveal the measures I have in place to ensure the game doesn't get broken.

pedit: shes not, yours just spinning it in a negative light b/c its something you don't want to hear

@pine, its kinda hard when wake is so hell bent on thinking it cant be broken when i can point out several flaws right off the bat. if he adressed them by saying "im doing XYZ" then fine. but hes just going "shoo, i know what i'm doing"

[ika]

Pine

I rather enjoyed that last post of yours

The first line sounds like something I would say

very wp

im with notty thats like his one liner in any game and if he doesnt use its not notty

[ika]

1)If the remaining member of Fire Scum learned the identity of two other Scum over the course of the game, and is about to be lynched, do you not think he or she will take the liberty of revealing their identities? Yeah. Think about that. That's Town-sided.

2) Go read USMB game #5. I'll share the link if you want. See, I modded this exact idea elsewhere, on a smaller scale, and it was intense, fun, and Town one because one Scum outed the other before death. Also, each time a NK hits another Scum team, a Town life is spared, and more time is granted for abilities to be used. You should factor that into your machinations next time.

3)I'm going to push to bring the number up to 32. We'll see what happens. I can easily do that.

4) There are also some very specific PR combinations that will be at play here, that will make it more difficult for Scum to win.
5)I'm not going to reveal them to you.
6)You do need to understand and accept that, with these things you don't know, the problem you think my game has... really does not exist. I'm not going to spoil the elements at play for you. You can learn them if you decide to join the party, or watch from the sidelines.

1) not really? thats just "hey lets screw the other cus im doomed"
2) thats not worst case scenario, and completely misses the point i'm pointing out.
-can that happen? yes
-will it happen? most likely
-the new problem: its now townsided on that sense that scums cant capsize on their true strength: their numbers
=if scum X suspects scum Y and cant kill him for having right reads, the NK gets wasted in favor of this "guilty"
-also you take out a core element: NK and possibble VCA
=its not used very often but for players who DO use it, they get screwed out of it
3) more numbers =/= better scenario, its just delays it if anything
4) does this adress the delema that i have pointed? where if all scums kill/lynch on town? if not then its still a problem
5) ok idc?
6) thats the entire problem, i can only take your word for it. if you think its all "unbreakable" then fine. im just expressing my concernes and how you act around it makes me think that you dont have them covered

pedit: like i said i already know about the game and the implication of that idea is not really spirit of mafia, its more of "lets screw another by this mechanic"

the game your portraying is more mechanic based and less mafia based is really the thing that i see from this

[ika]

wake when you get it into an idea format, PM me if you want to take that avanue of "scums cant NK each ohter" or some concepts of that i have an idea.

the main thing that comes with that dilemma is what you have acknowledged and what i wasy saying: its inherently town sided then.
I do have an idea how to make it that it can follow that concept to an extent w/o making it entirely "WHY NO NKS"

one of my other main concerns that arouse with this is really the mechanics. if you are trying to make it "balanced" (which i think detracts from the potential of this game if thats truly your intention) you really need a specific set of roles

TBH i would rather advertise this as a "game of fun" then "this is mafia" cus really thats what i see this game being.