Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE: , if that is a thing.

On phone, will read through today/tomorrow.

[Green Crayons]

Have read up through Day 2 so far.

Would vote Thor atm.

[Green Crayons]

Oh, scare quotes around "reading." Scarey.

I can assure you, I am wading through the morass that is Day 3 as I type. Well, not

as

I type, but I am currently reading through Day 3.

I also agree that it isn't alignment indicative.

[Green Crayons]

Scary, rather?

Frankly, I think it should be scarey, but I recently learned that it's scary and that's just bah humbug.

[Green Crayons]

Oh shit I replaced Slick Willy. Hah, I've been looking at Not_Mafia's Post 0 and been going "maan, I don't know about this Dys person (replaced by Slick Willy), I hope they're dead by current gamestate so I don't have to figure them out."

Well that helps me feel better about that slot.

[Green Crayons]

Sir, there is no "axing" involved in my "chilling." In fact, I "prefer" to have all "axes" "removed" from my "chilling."

If you get my drift.

[Green Crayons]

Shadow, get your butt in here.

Going to dinner shortly, will be on afterwards.

I summon thee, shadow!

*poof, appears* Hello! But later!


lol, how is this not textbook active lurking?

[Green Crayons]

I'm only on page 40. I got through a little bit this morning, but work today has been actually busy. So limited ability to actually read through, as it requires having a chunk of time to get in the mindspace and read more than just a page or two at a time.


Anyways, my current preference for a vote is: Thor --> Fink --> shadow.

[Green Crayons]

I think he's confirmed town.

Is this humor?

[Green Crayons]

Instead of not answering the question, you can answer the question.

[Green Crayons]

Here, I'll even provide my follow up question, since it appears that you don't like a conversation going in a step-by-step fashion:

If it is humor, then what is your real response to this question:

whats your shaddowez read

[Green Crayons]

Unless if this is your sole basis for your shaddow read?

I have explained the Droog read already, do you not understand part of it?

The Shaddowez one is more relational and PoE and is best summed up as 'townreading Fink and Phil, and not really seeing a Droog/Dyx connection'

[Green Crayons]

lol

Must be such a hard life being the smartest person in the world.

[Green Crayons]

1763 you voted shaddow. Only apparent reason for doing so (in that post -- I have also referenced 1753 where you have cited POE) was because of my post highlighting one event where it looked like shaddow was active lurking.

1770 shaddow asserted you weren't answering questions.

1771 you called shaddow "skimscum" for his 1770 post. Obviously, being "skimscum" was not part of your shaddow-is-scum read when you voted for him in 1763. Unless if you mentioned it before 1763? If not, it's just something you've said after the fact of voting him, and therefore is a late addition to your "case."

[Green Crayons]

Because I want the full breadth of your reasons for voting shaddow at all, and for voting shaddow over droog.

[Green Crayons]

Please, explain how once instance from over a month ago qualifies, especially when you decide to not look at any of the surrounding points. First, my response, while two posts later was an hour later. Secondly, 883, the very next post, was from me, as promised. Care to misrep me more?

1) What does it being over a month ago have to do with anything?
2) A one hour gap is not a long delay for a forum game between a "hey where is Player X" post and Player X popping in and saying "sup dudes I'm here."
3) The followup post about suspicions is irrelevant to whether you appeared as soon as summoned.
4) Not a misrep. Nice use of hyper-defensive phrasing for a one time event (haven't seen any other examples of call-and-response activity) that just happened to catch my eye in the read through as being really on the nose in terms of active lurking.

[Green Crayons]

Still at page 40, and should be making headway today, but so far the only basis that I see for voting shaddow is because of his semi-lurk status - which he has repeatedly stated (again, up through Page 40) as being more attributable to his inability to post during weekends than anything else. The only reason for me to doubt his less than active posting style within the universe of this game is literally that summoning response I quoted.

Effort, but if I wanted to actually pursue that line of thinking to a vote, I'd need to compare shaddow's activity in this game against his activity in other games during this time period. But he's only third of my list of acceptable votes, so I'm going to avoid that work at the moment.


In addition to this, it appears that you're stating I should vote him also because he's skimming and because of POE. For now my position is no thanks.

[Green Crayons]

Because I want the full breadth of your reasons for voting shaddow at all, and for voting shaddow over droog.

I voted Shaddowez over Droog because I think he's the better lynch today and you were the

first player to even admit that he looked questionable

and I wanted to strike while the iron was hot.

So, vote him now, yeah?

Is this including or excluding yourslef

Is this including or excluding yourslef

Is this humor?

[Green Crayons]

Deadline is frozen at 48 hours until I announce a replacement.

There is no deadline at the moment.

[Green Crayons]

Green Crayons replaces SlickWilly

Whooo, just hit this post in my read through.

~*~ Confetti Explosion. ~*~

-----

I'm only on page 40. I got through a little bit this morning, but work today has been actually busy. So limited ability to actually read through, as it requires having a chunk of time to get in the mindspace and read more than just a page or two at a time.


Anyways, my current preference for a vote is: Thor --> Fink --> shadow.

I felt this way up until about page 47. From there on out, I started getting mixed readings about these players. I think that they are all still the contenders for today's vote, but not in that order any more.

[Green Crayons]

And, as should be apparent from that vote pool, that means that I am most strongly reading Droog and AA/Phil.

[Green Crayons]

It looks like the two of you are talking past each other. Not alignment indicative.

[Green Crayons]

Also why do you
constantly post as if
you are writing freeform poetry?


Is it just to help disguisde your identity?

[Green Crayons]

It looks like the two of you are talking past each other. Not alignment indicative.

Oh, actually. I take this back. Sort of.

I stopped my reread at page 70, when I replaced in. At that time, the Droog/Thor argument was whether droog had a strong read on people or if his reads were in flux, etc., thereby indicating that Thor had committed an egregious lie of scum proportions.

That is what I thought you were referring to, and I think that that interaction looks like you two are talking past each other.


But since my replace in, the Droog/Thor argument has been whether Droog only started scumreading Thor after Thor started scumreading Droog (not entirely certain about that, but Droog certainly has made his big push on Thor only after the "lie" argument), and whether Thor has failed to state or be clear about his read on shaddow (which Thor has clearly stated, as Thor actually previously told Droog earlier in this game day).

If this is what you are referring to, I don't think the two of you are talking past each other, it's just that the points that you two are scoring or failing to score against each other don't really read to me as indicative of alignment, just indicative of you two bickering.

[Green Crayons]

I stopped my reread at page 70, when I replaced in.

Obvious it wasn't a reread, but an initial read through.

Welcome to my ultimate style of M-M-M-M-MULTI POSTS!!!

[Green Crayons]

- Case A and B are all part of the same case. If memory serves me correctly, your position on YYR/Fink has flipped to scum-town-scum-town-scum throughout the game. So Thor is not Objectively Wrong in his posts, and it certainly doesn't look like scum trying to mischaracterize your play in this game.

- Case C: I think you are actually correct that, the way in which Thor has set up the vote pool (Phil, Droog, Slick, Shadow, leaving out Fink), and then saying 1 or 2 of scum is in that pool, necessarily means that Thor is saying that all two scum can be potentially found in all five players that are not Thor. Then again, Thor has repeatedly stated that he finds Fink and Dys-slot most likely to be town, so taking these few posts as the be-all, end-all of who Thor is putting into the vote pool is somewhat disingenuous.

- Case D: "Everyone who wanted to lynch Thor got lynched." --> I actually made a note relevant to this point as I was reading through the game: in Post 1068, Thor himself acknowledges that scum will need to have their detractors lynched in order for scum to keep themselves alive. So Thor's play, to the extent it aligns with lynching people who have suspected him, does align with this scum play. Then again, Thor hasn't voted to lynch

only

those players who has suspected him (e.g., he hasn't gone after the Dys-slot), but, conversely, scum wouldn't need to mislynch all of their detractors. Ultimately a point in favor of Thor being scum.

- Case E: I don't see what your problem is with Thor's position on shaddow. Starting last game day and into early this game day, Thor was saying he supported a shaddow lynch because shaddow was lurking and thus made getting a read difficult/impossible. Thor then got into a back-and-forth with you, from which he said that you are scum. It is not incompatible for Thor to think that possibly-scum-shaddow is likely-scum-partner-to-droog-shaddow after concluding that droog is scum. Thor's exasperation at you is understandable, since he had the conversation about his feelings towards shaddow earlier this game day. (Thor's exasperation at me is Totally and Completely Unacceptable, and I will be writing a letter to management, as Thor could have simply said "yo read the beginning of today's game day for my reasons.")

[Green Crayons]

Right. You have gone back and forth on YYR/Fink. And, yes, the first thing you said this game day was that you would vig YYR/Fink. That doesn't change the fact that you have previously gone back and forth on YYR/Fink.

Does it mean that you are a complete wuss about your reads? I personally wouldn't agree with that statement, but it also doesn't mean that Thor was so wrong that he was lying about your position.

Also, Thor was saying everyone was being a wuss about their reads/votes. He wasn't really making a push specifically against you when he was saying that, was he? I don't see why Thor-scum would purposefully mischaracterize your position if he wasn't going to use it as a part of a case against you (and he had already started saying you were second/third on his vote list at the end of yesterday game day for reasons apart from whether you were being a wuss or not).

-----

Going from lurk scumread to POE buddy scumread is not inconsistent, because in the time between those two reads Thor said he read you as scum. What's weird is not that you're taking issue with his POE analysis, but that for some reason you think that reading shaddow as being a lurkscum - independent of any other player's alignment - is mutually exclusive with reading shaddow as being a POE scumbuddy

after

deciding that another player (you) is scum.

They aren't mutually exclusive positions, they can be held simultaneously after one read develops after the other, and therefore they are not inconsistent.

[Green Crayons]

I didn't realize I would be defending Thor this much. I really do think his play up until approximately page 47 is pretty suspicious.

-----

Here are my notes from that time frame about things that I didn't like from Thor (I started getting lazy on D4):

Day 1

1. Vote and push against Cheetory was a dense mush of word salad. Made it very hard to follow but looked very smart and thought through. Even though only on Pages 3 and 4 of the game, when it's difficult to have smart and well thought opinions if one is a VT and lacking information. Blair more or less called him out on it in Post 62 Post 68, and Post 84.
(lol finally hit Post 186, where Thor sets forth a 14-point logical process that got him to vote Cheetory. Looks like scum effort-posting. Also looks like BS.)

2. Cited wiki in defense of self. Post 59. Scummy because it puts everyone into the mindset of "oh no, is my scumread of Thor actually just a Thorread of Thor?"

3. Don't like the "vote me, bro" challenge in Post 74. It's aggressive ("vote me now") and self-aggrandizing ("I'm being logical"). Strikes me as a confident scum move.

Day 2

1. Refuses to answer without first being answered, thereby allowing him to dodge his own answer by further drilling down on the response.

2. Hyper defensive word usage. Noted by Blair in Post 116.

Day 3

1. Uggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh walls making my eyes bleed. Hey Bins said it pretty good in Post 374: "And it seems like you aren't listening to people at all. And that's foggying the fuck out of my read on the person you're 1v1'ing and my read on you. " Ain't nothing like making a read on yourself difficult as hell to muster because of long, tedious arguments with people when you're scum.

2. Kudos to acryon for Post 432. Post 449 is a nice follow up.

3. Another thing someone else said that was really on point (this time, Dys in Post 478): "He's also mainly arguing anyone who questions or suspects him. I don't find it town at all. He seems very defensive."

4. acryon's bit about controlling the thread

Day 4

1. such and such about Thor attacking his attacker as the only method for scum to get rid of suspects w/r/t Bob (b/w pages 41-44)

2. revisit Bob's post 1118 suspicion about Thor

[Green Crayons]

Truth be told, though, I'm actually more interested in pursuing my shaddow suspicions. I didn't think I would back when I paused on Page 40, but I'm going to look into that next.

[Green Crayons]

lol, I think everyone in this game can agree that Thor is convinced that he is the most pro-town player.

A lot of his posts in this game heavily imply that he thinks this, even outside of this particular situation you're highlighting. Apparently that's just Thor.

Would it be alignment indicative if we weren't talking about Thor? I don't think so. Town people think that they act town because they know that they are town. So town have a propensity to explicitly and implicitly characterize their play as town. It's a big reason why there's a kneejerk reaction to suspect someone who suspects you when you are town. Because you know that you are town, you know that the suspicions are ultimately wrong in some manner (if not in logic then in result).

Conversely, scum calling their own play town doesn't really strike me as a real goal for scum. They want town players to call their play town. Could scum accomplish this goal by calling their own play town in the hopes that other town would agree with them? I suppose that's a possibility. But in the context of this game, we already have had a bunch of people saying that Thor is a town read. Thor doesn't need to bolster the thread's opinion about his town cred with his own statements of his townness, as players (some still living) have called him Town throughout the game. Moreover, bolstering the towncred of his own play by lowering the towncred of four other players - at least two of which are town - doesn't really go about winning hearts and minds.

[Green Crayons]

@Thor:

if shaddow flips town, there's nobody left in your POE that could be buddy to droog-scum. What then for the LYLO vote?

[Green Crayons]

@AA:

well, I'm not asking for towncred for having actually read the game, so don't feel pressured into townreading me simply for that. I don't understand what you mean by my "posts are worrying"?

[Green Crayons]

@Thor:

Though, to be honest, if one of them flipped town I'd probably still want to lynch the other.

This strikes me as odd. The scumflip of one seems to be a not insubstantial part of why you are scumreading the other (moreso for shaddow than droog, admittedly). If one doesn't scumflip, that wouldn't cause you to rethink your suspicion of the other?

[Green Crayons]

I wish Fink wasn't being replaced.

@shaddow:

who is buddy to Thor-scum?

[Green Crayons]

If Riddle flipped scum, I don't think Thor is a buddy. Although Thor's play towards the slot I could conceivably see towards a bud, Fink's 100% embrace of Thor in light of Thor's play doesn't strike me as likely buddy material.

Sup Riddle.

[Green Crayons]

Which basically leaves you and Arc as theory buddies for me.
And Arc is currently selling you+me so I think that makes it safe for you to rule out her barring a really weird 11th hour bus.
Which means, natch, that I'm not scum from your perspective.

Maybe my mind just isn't in a good headspace at the moment, but I don't follow this.

[Green Crayons]

Having just read shaddow's ISO, he looks suspicious only in the second half of the game, not at the beginning.

-----

If Riddle flipped scum, I don't think Thor is a buddy. Although Thor's play towards the slot I could conceivably see towards a bud, Fink's 100% embrace of Thor in light of Thor's play doesn't strike me as likely buddy material.

I just looked through Fink's ISO, and I see that my memory about this was not actually as accurate as I thought. (

@Thor:

did you voluntarily pass up an opportunity to correct me? I would have thought that you would have been most knowledgeable about Fink's position on you. )

Fink actually suspected Thor for a good majority of the game, then pushed Thor into the town category simply based on meta - while simultaneously acknowledging that meta wasn't a great basis to read Thor at all. Post 992. Fink then suggests in that post that he would only vote Thor if Thor-scum's buddy is caught first. This unnecessarily and artificially makes Thor untouchable. It's also a great excuse to not vote a scum buddy.

-----

VOTE: Riddle

- I liked when I first read it, and I liked it as I just reread it, droog's case against YYR back in Post 341.
- droog has fair criticism of Fink in Post 949, Post 951, Post 961, and Post 1311.
- Really don't like Fink's Post 971 where he drags up ancient history posts of two players who suspect him to discredit those two players. It's like Fink went digging for a good reason to undermine his attackers, rather than justify his play on its own merits.

[Green Crayons]

I can't really defend your case against Fink, GC. I hope you realise that. I've no idea why Fink did what he did -- probably just newbie/confused town by the looks of things.

Yeah, I know. That's why I was hoping he wouldn't be replaced.

If you were to flip scum, your partner would be either Thor or shaddow.

That's sort of a cop-out answer, as I've already said that the other remaining non-GC players are my strongest reads.

So between Thor and shaddow, I think I would actually go for shaddow (it was a feeling I got from the end of my first play through), but my review of Fink's weird attitude towards Thor would give me pause.

[Green Crayons]

the other remaining non-GC players (AA and droog) are my strongest

town

reads.*

[Green Crayons]

@crayon: does riddle voting thor look like a bus?

This is a difficult question.

I can see how it could be: Riddle replaced in, and his (hypo) scumbuddy Thor is at L-2 and is the most popular lynch.

At the same time,

everyone

who has replaced into this game has thought Thor is Thor-scum, to varying degrees. Myself included. That's a weird fucking track record, even taking into consider Thor's "but I'm Thor!" defense. So its a pretty big double standard to fault Riddle for having the same (at least initial) reaction to Thor as all other replacees, so I don't think I can personally count it against him. (Plus it assumes that Thor is Thor-scum, which would really suggest a Thor lynch first and foremost.)

[Green Crayons]

@Riddle:

1) If Thor flips town, who is scum?

2) (Maybe or maybe not related to Question #1): why are you reading AA as scum?

[Green Crayons]

Rephrasing
You think riddle's scum
You think thor's scum
Do you think they're scum together?

It's possible.

If Thor is scum, most likely buddy would be Riddle (because of Fink's play). I appreciate that Riddle has said that Thor-scum's buddy would be AA, but apart from POE, there isn't much for me to evaluate how this would be the case. (I don't think Thor-scum would be buddies with either droog or shaddow, as Thor strikes me as a player who, as scum, plays for as few scum deaths as possible.)

If Riddle is scum, most likely buddy is split between shaddow and Thor, though I've explained why I would probably vote shaddow before Thor. (Though, if we get a scum lynch on this day, I think we have three lynches to find the last scum, if my math is correct - which would be enough to lynch both shaddow and Thor and one more.)

If Thor isn't scum, I think Riddle/shaddow is the most likely scum group.

If Riddle isn't scum, I think Thor/AA is the most likely scum group.

[Green Crayons]

AA's two most recent posts are lolscummy, but man that would be obvious scum not wanting to bus a buddy, so I don't know if AA-scum would play so blatantly scummy?

[Green Crayons]

Oh man, I was going to say maybe it could be chalked up to being new, but checked AA's wiki shows a plethora of games. Nevermind.

[Green Crayons]

I mean, that delves into WIFOM, but okay: because there's another game day to survive. You hammering could bring suspicion on yourself.

I don't know if you hammering droog would have been suspicious - frankly, I've forgotten the exact thread sentiment when droog was a L-1 - but scum would be particularly antsy about getting too much attention on themselves going into a 2/5 LYLO situation.


This is all besides the point, though, because me reevaluating you requires Thor flipping scum.

[Green Crayons]

I am voting him.

[Green Crayons]

Green, what do you make of you being a good Thor partner
Look at where slick voted me right after I voted Thor
And showed an incomplete reading
For what I mean

(shrug)

Once I figured out that I was replacing Dys's slot, I didn't pay too much attention to her. I do recall that she was consistently pushing for a Thor lynch, so you'd have to think that she was at least hinting at bussing for some portion of the game.

As for Slick, I did a quick ISO of him and CTRL'd F your name, and he appeared to suspect you from his entry into the game. So while his vote on you right after you voting Thor could look like a chainsaw defense, that theory is viable only if you think he was laying the groundwork for that play from his entry into the game.

[Green Crayons]

If Thor is scum, most likely buddy would be Riddle (because of Fink's play). I appreciate that Riddle has said that Thor-scum's buddy would be AA, but apart from POE, there isn't much for me to evaluate how this would be the case. (I don't think Thor-scum would be buddies with either droog or shaddow, as Thor strikes me as a player who, as scum, plays for as few scum deaths as possible.)

If Riddle is scum, most likely buddy is split between shaddow and Thor, though I've explained why I would probably vote shaddow before Thor. (Though, if we get a scum lynch on this day, I think we have three lynches to find the last scum, if my math is correct - which would be enough to lynch both shaddow and Thor and one more.)

If Thor isn't scum, I think Riddle/shaddow is the most likely scum group.

If Riddle isn't scum, I think Thor/AA is the most likely scum group.

Well, I guess I'll just see which of these avenues I'll be pursuing.

1 hour until deadline. I know deadlines don't really matter in this game, but I also am not going to fret if Thor isn't scum, because if that's the case, I'm pretty certain that Riddle will.

Also, AA's failure to follow through on her Thor vote/suspicions duly noted.

So.

UNVOTE: Riddle
VOTE: Thor

[Green Crayons]

droog is definitely town.

He has a good mixture of solid reads, causal interactions, and self-doubt throughout the game that came across as natural rather than manufactured. Plus his reads seemed to be organic rather than calculated.

If droog isn't town, hat tip to his win, because I'm not voting him.

[Green Crayons]

Hat tip to you, Riddle.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: AA9

Fine by me.

[Green Crayons]

Complete sheep, because Riddle earned it.

[Green Crayons]

Also, since we avoided LYLO, we'll most likely win.

droog is definitely town, so droog really only needs to figure out who is most town outside of himself and not lynch that person.

[Green Crayons]

At the same time, everyone who has replaced into this game has thought Thor is Thor-scum, to varying degrees.

Myself included. That's a weird fucking track record, even taking into consider Thor's "but I'm Thor!" defense. So its a pretty big double standard to fault Riddle for having the same (at least initial) reaction to Thor as all other replacees, so I don't think I can personally count it against him. (Plus it assumes that Thor is Thor-scum, which would really suggest a Thor lynch first and foremost.)

lol

Well at least acryon and Bob have reason to feel vindicated.

[Green Crayons]

Yep, I agree. If it's not AA9, next most likely choice is shadow

Disagree there, unfortunately. Thor made a push for shaddow going into yesterday when nobody was even looking at shaddow. Thor also made a push for shaddow once I mentioned that I thought shaddow was worth a vote.

I'd need to give it more thought, but I'm afraid fink looks like a more likely buddy than shaddow.

[Green Crayons]

I've got three reasons.

(1)

You should consider AA9 also based on what I've said in 1887 and 1888

(2)

I am thinking of Thor/Green crayons are partner.. Or if you're fooling with me... I am double minded.

OK so as I've said before, scumteam is most definitely thor + AA9. Can't be anyone else. Let's do this.

VOTE: Thor

L-1.

this worries me a bit. Isn't this like busing his partner or so?
so fink and thor was team??

or Thor and Green Crayons were team? or the worst combo Fink and Green crayons were team? God damit this game...!!!!!

i want to change thor lynch.. not ready yet.

who is up for voting Riddleton???

AA's two most recent posts are lolscummy, but man that would be obvious scum not wanting to bus a buddy, so I don't know if AA-scum would play so blatantly scummy?

(3) Because it doesn't really matter, because if it isn't AA, I think it's Riddle and then shaddow.

[Green Crayons]

Also, once again, (3) is relevant to droog-town (and is not simply GC-specific) because:

droog is definitely town, so droog really only needs to figure out who is most town outside of himself and not lynch that person.

[Green Crayons]

Yep, I agree. If it's not AA9, next most likely choice is shadow

Disagree there, unfortunately. Thor made a push for shaddow going into yesterday when nobody was even looking at shaddow. Thor also made a push for shaddow once I mentioned that I thought shaddow was worth a vote.

I'd need to give it more thought, but I'm afraid fink looks like a more likely buddy than shaddow.

[Green Crayons]

Well I'd down for voting Riddle over shaddow, but it'd suck if Thor-scum was actually wanting to bus his buddy.

[Green Crayons]

Clarification: it'd suck because droog has stated that he wants to lynch shaddow last, and if shaddow is the other scum, that would mean scum win.

[Green Crayons]

lol

Didn't you just state AA > shadow > GC?

VOTE: Riddle

[Green Crayons]

If Thor is scum, most likely buddy would be Riddle (because of Fink's play). I appreciate that Riddle has said that Thor-scum's buddy would be AA, but apart from POE, there isn't much for me to evaluate how this would be the case. (I don't think Thor-scum would be buddies with either droog or shaddow, as Thor strikes me as a player who, as scum, plays for as few scum deaths as possible.)

This is basically my argument in a nutshell, droog.

[Green Crayons]

Hah! What? Why I never!

[Green Crayons]

I was noting your change in position because you didn't justify the different lynch order.

[Green Crayons]

Oh, lol, it's 3 to lynch?

Well, nothing is getting done until tonight when shaddow posts anyways.

[Green Crayons]

If you're town, then you should explain who you think should be lynched between shaddow and GC.

[Green Crayons]

(Just in case if you get lynched today.)

For example, if I get lynched today, I think droog should vote Riddle over shaddow for reasons previously stated in this thread.

[Green Crayons]

Actually, my reread of shaddow's ISO shows that he doesn't really lurk. His posting really is relegated to late nights on Sunday through Friday. So he just happens to have less posts, because the thread blows up during the day.

[Green Crayons]

So basically I just explained away probably the biggest scummy thing about shaddow, but if it is shaddow v. GC, I promise it's not me!

[Green Crayons]

Not really.

[Green Crayons]

Like, droog really sold me on being town through my read.

[Green Crayons]

Alright, so I combed through Thor's ISO to see his interaction with Riddle's slot. This is what I have:

Thor's treatment of YYR:

- First post mentioning YYR: "I am moving Shadow and YYR to likely town." Post 105.

- Questions or asks for YYR suspicions. Post 146, Post 244, Post 289, Post 320.

- "I don't really support the YYR nor do I find him lurky". Post 273.

- "I'd rather not lynch YYR today, I think we can do better." Post 379.

- Horribly misconstrues acryon's suspicions of scumteam (1) Johnny, (2) YYR, and (3) Blair OR Thor (Post 537) in order to frame acryon's supposed scumteam as (1) Johnny, (2) Blair, and (3) Thor. Post 538. Completely erases YYR from the discussion of a scum team.

CONCLUSION: did not want to lynch YYR. Possible buddy -- Thor strikes me as a player who doesn't want to lynch a fellow scum, and would see no reason to bus a buddy on D1.

Thor's treatment of Fink:

Alright, this is a much longer and more complex relationship, so I'll break this up.

(1)

Generally speaking, there was not much substance to direct Thor/Fink interactions. When there was substance, I don't think that the conversations really went anywhere. They were just words that spun around in circles. (Note that this latter point is really more of a point against Thor than Fink, but it is what it is.)

- Fluff interactions with/references to Fink. Post 475, Post 482, Post 549, Post 651, Post 652, Post 852, Post 862

- Real interactions with Fink, but it's just long form discussion not going anywhere. Post 498, Post 570, Post 575, Post 596, Post 753, Post 824, Post 851, Post 1093, Post 1146, Post 1154, Post 1453.

- Disregards or disapproves of Fink's suspicions on other players. Post 524, Post 527, Post 655, Post 828, Post 1139.

- Approves of Fink's suspicions on other players. (On Blair, who Thor was already suspecting) Post 601. (On Phil, slowly warming up to Fink's long-time Phil suspicions that Thor had repeatedly disapproved of) Post 845.

(2)(a)

So, when the heat gets turned up against Fink, Thor flirts with being "neutral" but then goes in full defend-Fink mode. Repeatedly.

- Is "neutral" on the case against Fink, but chastises Fink for thinking his lurking exempts him from a lynch. Post 555.

- Discredits Fink suspicions, and specifically picks on Phil and droog for suspecting Fink. Post 627.

- Refuses to address the case on Fink before Fink response. Characterizes how he would respond to the case as "attacking" the Fink case. Post 953. Ends up disliking the Fink case. Post 955.

- Goes out of his way to address Fink's question to the thread what the thread thinks of droog's case against Fink, to simply state "yo what I already said: it's not good!" Post 969.

- Further defends Fink from votes. Post 1399.

(2)(b)

Then there are the general Fink-is-town posts.

- Wants Fink in LYLO. Post 769, Post 770.

- "I strongly town read Fink." Post 864.

- "I would actively oppose a Fink or Dyx lynch at this juncture." Post 1218.

- Approves of droog's withdrawal of his Fink suspicions and droog's embrace of one of Fink's posts. Post 1244.

- Defends Fink's theory of droog scum. Post 1289, Post 1299, Post 1325. Uses to vote droog. Post 1302.

(3)

Then, least popular basis of suspicion, but here's some getting inside of Thor-scum head.

- Answer's Fink's question about scum daytalk. Post 571.

Theory:

"Nobody will think Thor-scum would answer Fink-scum's question about scum daytalk!"

- Groups Fink in with two other town (Dys and acryon) to explain why Phil isn't scummy for a particular action. Post 598.

Theory:

rule of 3, where 1 player out of 3 mentioned by a flipped scum is a scum.

- Is frustrated with Fink's laziness. Post 596, Post 602, Post 606.

Theory:

expressing frustration with a buddy.

- "@Fink - I think it's a little too paranoid as an actual scumtell though. I don't particularly think Droog is townish, but I'm not really buying this as a valid case. Meh, get him to L-1 and I'll offer hammer intent though " Post 1286.

Theory:

"hey let's hold off on the droog vote because I don't think that there are enough town votes to join us, but wait until LYLO!"

CONCLUSION: this is not a slam dunk case that Thor and Fink were buddies, but I think enough is there for it to be more than simply a possibility. Also, I caught sight of Thor's push for shaddow and droog, and they really don't look like logical plays for Thor-scum to do if either one of them is a buddy.

Thor's treatment of Riddle:

I don't think Thor's two posts directed at Riddle are insightful at all.

Maybe

Post 1893 could be seen as a weak defense to a buddy's bus, but that's pure speculation.

[Green Crayons]

Well, Riddle, I'm not looking to impress you.

I've repeatedly stated that Thor strikes me as someone who wouldn't want to bus a scum buddy unless absolutely necessary. This is just how Thor comes across to me. He's a bit arrogant, he likes to win, and up until his lynch, the scum were doing a darn good job at winning - so no real need to bus. Thor himself said that he either buddies or busses as scum, and taking that statement at face value, it looks like he chose to buddy rather than bus.

lol @ "hunch" v. "cold hard fact" - I can tell that you're trying to discredit my evaluation of Thor as a scum player, but this is a weird way to go about doing it. How in the world could what I said about how Thor "strikes me" be construed as a "cold hard fact"? It's obviously an assessment of who I think he is as a player, which necessarily is based on how I perceive his play. People can agree or disagree with it.

As for if you flip town, then I guess I am wrong somewhere along the way; either about the fact that Thor doesn't look like a player who would readily bus a buddy, or that Thor's vote of shaddow was a bus but had some strategic import to it. I mean, I know for a fact that I am town, Riddle. If you accept that premise - like I must - then me being incorrect about Thor's play doesn't make me scum. It just makes me wrong about Thor's play.

[Green Crayons]

Activity post to avoid a prod.

Happy to answer questions if there are any. But I'm also happy to lynch Riddle today for the numerous reasons I have previously stated.

Spoiler: Reasons Why I've Voting Riddle

VOTE: Riddle

- I liked when I first read it, and I liked it as I just reread it, droog's case against YYR back in Post 341.
- droog has fair criticism of Fink in Post 949, Post 951, Post 961, and Post 1311.
- Really don't like Fink's Post 971 where he drags up ancient history posts of two players who suspect him to discredit those two players. It's like Fink went digging for a good reason to undermine his attackers, rather than justify his play on its own merits.

If Thor is scum, most likely buddy would be Riddle (because of Fink's play). I appreciate that Riddle has said that Thor-scum's buddy would be AA, but apart from POE, there isn't much for me to evaluate how this would be the case. (I don't think Thor-scum would be buddies with either droog or shaddow, as Thor strikes me as a player who, as scum, plays for as few scum deaths as possible.)

Yep, I agree. If it's not AA9, next most likely choice is shadow

Disagree there, unfortunately. Thor made a push for shaddow going into yesterday when nobody was even looking at shaddow. Thor also made a push for shaddow once I mentioned that I thought shaddow was worth a vote.

I'd need to give it more thought, but I'm afraid fink looks like a more likely buddy than shaddow.

Alright, so I combed through Thor's ISO to see his interaction with Riddle's slot. This is what I have:

Thor's treatment of YYR:

- First post mentioning YYR: "I am moving Shadow and YYR to likely town." Post 105.

- Questions or asks for YYR suspicions. Post 146, Post 244, Post 289, Post 320.

- "I don't really support the YYR nor do I find him lurky". Post 273.

- "I'd rather not lynch YYR today, I think we can do better." Post 379.

- Horribly misconstrues acryon's suspicions of scumteam (1) Johnny, (2) YYR, and (3) Blair OR Thor (Post 537) in order to frame acryon's supposed scumteam as (1) Johnny, (2) Blair, and (3) Thor. Post 538. Completely erases YYR from the discussion of a scum team.

CONCLUSION: did not want to lynch YYR. Possible buddy -- Thor strikes me as a player who doesn't want to lynch a fellow scum, and would see no reason to bus a buddy on D1.

Thor's treatment of Fink:

Alright, this is a much longer and more complex relationship, so I'll break this up.

(1)

Generally speaking, there was not much substance to direct Thor/Fink interactions. When there was substance, I don't think that the conversations really went anywhere. They were just words that spun around in circles. (Note that this latter point is really more of a point against Thor than Fink, but it is what it is.)

- Fluff interactions with/references to Fink. Post 475, Post 482, Post 549, Post 651, Post 652, Post 852, Post 862

- Real interactions with Fink, but it's just long form discussion not going anywhere. Post 498, Post 570, Post 575, Post 596, Post 753, Post 824, Post 851, Post 1093, Post 1146, Post 1154, Post 1453.

- Disregards or disapproves of Fink's suspicions on other players. Post 524, Post 527, Post 655, Post 828, Post 1139.

- Approves of Fink's suspicions on other players. (On Blair, who Thor was already suspecting) Post 601. (On Phil, slowly warming up to Fink's long-time Phil suspicions that Thor had repeatedly disapproved of) Post 845.

(2)(a)

So, when the heat gets turned up against Fink, Thor flirts with being "neutral" but then goes in full defend-Fink mode. Repeatedly.

- Is "neutral" on the case against Fink, but chastises Fink for thinking his lurking exempts him from a lynch. Post 555.

- Discredits Fink suspicions, and specifically picks on Phil and droog for suspecting Fink. Post 627.

- Refuses to address the case on Fink before Fink response. Characterizes how he would respond to the case as "attacking" the Fink case. Post 953. Ends up disliking the Fink case. Post 955.

- Goes out of his way to address Fink's question to the thread what the thread thinks of droog's case against Fink, to simply state "yo what I already said: it's not good!" Post 969.

- Further defends Fink from votes. Post 1399.

(2)(b)

Then there are the general Fink-is-town posts.

- Wants Fink in LYLO. Post 769, Post 770.

- "I strongly town read Fink." Post 864.

- "I would actively oppose a Fink or Dyx lynch at this juncture." Post 1218.

- Approves of droog's withdrawal of his Fink suspicions and droog's embrace of one of Fink's posts. Post 1244.

- Defends Fink's theory of droog scum. Post 1289, Post 1299, Post 1325. Uses to vote droog. Post 1302.

(3)

Then, least popular basis of suspicion, but here's some getting inside of Thor-scum head.

- Answer's Fink's question about scum daytalk. Post 571.

Theory:

"Nobody will think Thor-scum would answer Fink-scum's question about scum daytalk!"

- Groups Fink in with two other town (Dys and acryon) to explain why Phil isn't scummy for a particular action. Post 598.

Theory:

rule of 3, where 1 player out of 3 mentioned by a flipped scum is a scum.

- Is frustrated with Fink's laziness. Post 596, Post 602, Post 606.

Theory:

expressing frustration with a buddy.

- "@Fink - I think it's a little too paranoid as an actual scumtell though. I don't particularly think Droog is townish, but I'm not really buying this as a valid case. Meh, get him to L-1 and I'll offer hammer intent though " Post 1286.

Theory:

"hey let's hold off on the droog vote because I don't think that there are enough town votes to join us, but wait until LYLO!"

CONCLUSION: this is not a slam dunk case that Thor and Fink were buddies, but I think enough is there for it to be more than simply a possibility. Also, I caught sight of Thor's push for shaddow and droog, and they really don't look like logical plays for Thor-scum to do if either one of them is a buddy.

Thor's treatment of Riddle:

I don't think Thor's two posts directed at Riddle are insightful at all.

Maybe

Post 1893 could be seen as a weak defense to a buddy's bus, but that's pure speculation.

If Riddle does in fact flip town, I will most likely vote shaddow in LYLO - though I will do a review of Thor's play specifically with respect to each of droog and shaddow, as well as a review of each of droog's and shadow's play more generally.

That said, I don't foresee that changing my mind about lynch order. I would have to really find a smoking gun for me to flip on my take away from the read through that shaddow is suspicious and droog is solid town.

[Green Crayons]

Since 2002ish.

[Green Crayons]

Activity post.

[Green Crayons]

Beep boop activity post.

[Green Crayons]

Okay, I'll bite:

This is where I scumread Dys, townread YYR, and say I would townread Thor if I didn't know better.

johnny flipped scum day 1
thor -> scum
yyr -> fink -> riddleton
dys -> slick -> green crayon

what are the odds 2/3 johnny's day 1 reads were on his partners?

No idea. The question is purely speculative, and any sort of educated guess - which I wouldn't really credit anyways - would require knowing how Johnny plays as town and as scum, which I don't. Would scum mention two buddies in a list of three reads? Maybe, maybe not. Would scum be more likely to list a first scum buddy as town (Riddle) or scum (me) and then list the second scum buddy (Thor) as scum-because-I-know-his-play? No idea.

-----

VC 2.04

Blair (0)-

Phillammon (0)-

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (0)-

droog (0)-

YYR (0)-

acryon (0)-

Dyslexicon (0)-

wgeurts (6)-

droog, YYR, Thor665, Blair, Shaddowez, Phillammon

Lynched

Fokem (0)-

Not Voting (4)-

acryon, Dyslexicon, wgeurts, Fokem

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-10 20:00:00)

- Oct 9th 19:00 GMT

thor -> scum
yyr -> fink -> riddleton
shaddowez

what are the odds 2 scum weer on the wgeurts wagon?
((that was the wagon that power lynched after wgeurts quickhammered))

wgeurts was an easy mislynch for scum. Two scum on the D2 wagon against an easy target does not surprise me.

-----

is it just me or do your eyes glaze over when you get to the 665 in thor665

Is this humor?

[Green Crayons]

Sucks replacing into a scum slot, then?

[Green Crayons]

Your tldr is OMGUS, but that's cool. Nobody's perfect.

[Green Crayons]

lol, your chronology is a bit off.

I've been saying your slot is a likely scum since about my fifth post in this game.

I've been saying that you are more likely Thor-scum's buddy than shaddow since before we lynched Thor.

So, I've been suspecting you before you decided to switch from shaddow-buddy to GC-buddy without explanation (and still haven't explained it) after we lynched AA.

[Green Crayons]

Heh. It's like you're just ignoring the fact that there wasn't anything to discuss at those points, and then as soon as droog made clear he had questions, I and shaddow actually contributed.

Wait, it isn't "like" that. It's exactly that.

[Green Crayons]

Because you got Thor-scum, and I rolled with it, hoping that I was wrong about you and you were in fact town.

*gasp* I was wrong.

[Green Crayons]

Wrong at least with you being right with respect to AA.

Your alignment is TBD.

[Green Crayons]

Okay, Riddle.

[Green Crayons]

this is something i didnt understand day 7
why did riddle get thor?

@crayon: does riddle voting thor look like a bus?

This is a difficult question.

I can see how it could be: Riddle replaced in, and his (hypo) scumbuddy Thor is at L-2 and is the most popular lynch.

At the same time,

everyone

who has replaced into this game has thought Thor is Thor-scum, to varying degrees.

Myself included. That's a weird fucking track record, even taking into consider Thor's "but I'm Thor!" defense. So its a pretty big double standard to fault Riddle for having the same (at least initial) reaction to Thor as all other replacees, so I don't think I can personally count it against him. (Plus it assumes that Thor is Thor-scum, which would really suggest a Thor lynch first and foremost.)

The bolded is the justification for his Thor-vote if Riddle is in fact scum.

The underline is the justification for his Thor-vote if Riddle is in fact town.

Pick whichever one seems more plausible to you.

[Green Crayons]

That would be the underlined justification?

Basically, Thor looked pretty scummy to anyone who was looking at the game with fresh eyes. Ergo, you, if you are in fact town.

[Green Crayons]

Riddle, do you have any thoughts as to droog v. shaddow?

[Green Crayons]

Hopefully with something more specific than "droog seems pretty obviously town"?

[Green Crayons]

^^ Particularly as we're just waiting on you, droog, to figure out who are going to vote before the next phase of conversation can begin.

[Green Crayons]

You've obviously been flirting with the idea for a while. Anything in particular you want addressed?

[Green Crayons]

You've obviously been flirting with the idea for a while. Anything in particular you want addressed?

[Green Crayons]

Alternatively, we could just lynch someone (Riddle) already.

[Green Crayons]

So, we seem to have a problem here. droog, for some reason, is being indecisive and not placing a vote on anybody. As we need three out of four votes on any given person, unless droog becomes the lynch candidate for the day (highly unlikely), we're at a standstill.

In case the problem is he doesn't want to hammer and be the final vote on anybody right now

, I will

UNVOTE:

Once droog has made up his mind, or there's something to swing my vote to somebody else, I'll place my vote again.

This is a peculiar unvote.

I don't understand your line of thought behind the bolded.

droog wouldn't want to be the hammer? Why not?

Presumably droog isn't voting because he doesn't want a lynch yet. He said as much in Post 2013 and Post 2020. If he was to vote either Riddle or myself, that would put us at L-1. And then you'd just hammer, thereby accomplishing exactly what droog doesn't want yet: a lynch. How does your unvote encourage droog's vote in this situation?

[Green Crayons]

@droog:

I've repeatedly stated that Thor strikes me as someone who wouldn't want to bus a scum buddy unless absolutely necessary.

where else did you say this?

Here:

Rephrasing
You think riddle's scum
You think thor's scum
Do you think they're scum together?

It's possible.

If Thor is scum, most likely buddy would be Riddle (because of Fink's play). I appreciate that Riddle has said that Thor-scum's buddy would be AA, but apart from POE, there isn't much for me to evaluate how this would be the case.

(I don't think Thor-scum would be buddies with either droog or shaddow, as Thor strikes me as a player who, as scum, plays for as few scum deaths as possible.)

If Riddle is scum, most likely buddy is split between shaddow and Thor, though I've explained why I would probably vote shaddow before Thor. (Though, if we get a scum lynch on this day, I think we have three lynches to find the last scum, if my math is correct - which would be enough to lynch both shaddow and Thor and one more.)

If Thor isn't scum, I think Riddle/shaddow is the most likely scum group.

If Riddle isn't scum, I think Thor/AA is the most likely scum group.

Here I am following through with that belief:

Yep, I agree. If it's not AA9, next most likely choice is shadow

Disagree there, unfortunately. Thor made a push for shaddow going into yesterday when nobody was even looking at shaddow. Thor also made a push for shaddow once I mentioned that I thought shaddow was worth a vote.

I'd need to give it more thought, but I'm afraid fink looks like a more likely buddy than shaddow.

Here I am suggesting that it is unlikely for Thor to have bussed a buddy:

Well I'd down for voting Riddle over shaddow, but it'd suck if Thor-scum was actually wanting to bus his buddy.

And here's me self-quoting my statement about how I think Thor-scum would play:

If Thor is scum, most likely buddy would be Riddle (because of Fink's play). I appreciate that Riddle has said that Thor-scum's buddy would be AA, but apart from POE, there isn't much for me to evaluate how this would be the case. (I don't think Thor-scum would be buddies with either droog or shaddow, as Thor strikes me as a player who, as scum, plays for as few scum deaths as possible.)

This is basically my argument in a nutshell, droog.

[Green Crayons]

@droog:

Have read up through Day 2 so far.

Would vote Thor atm.

why so early?

Because of the bolded:

I didn't realize I would be defending Thor this much. I really do think his play up until approximately page 47 is pretty suspicious.

-----

Here are my notes from that time frame about things that I didn't like from Thor (I started getting lazy on D4):

Day 1

1. Vote and push against Cheetory was a dense mush of word salad. Made it very hard to follow but looked very smart and thought through. Even though only on Pages 3 and 4 of the game, when it's difficult to have smart and well thought opinions if one is a VT and lacking information. Blair more or less called him out on it in Post 62 Post 68, and Post 84.
(lol finally hit Post 186, where Thor sets forth a 14-point logical process that got him to vote Cheetory. Looks like scum effort-posting. Also looks like BS.)

2. Cited wiki in defense of self. Post 59. Scummy because it puts everyone into the mindset of "oh no, is my scumread of Thor actually just a Thorread of Thor?"

3. Don't like the "vote me, bro" challenge in Post 74. It's aggressive ("vote me now") and self-aggrandizing ("I'm being logical"). Strikes me as a confident scum move.

Day 2

1. Refuses to answer without first being answered, thereby allowing him to dodge his own answer by further drilling down on the response.

2. Hyper defensive word usage. Noted by Blair in Post 116.

Day 3

1. Uggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh walls making my eyes bleed. Hey Bins said it pretty good in Post 374: "And it seems like you aren't listening to people at all. And that's foggying the fuck out of my read on the person you're 1v1'ing and my read on you. " Ain't nothing like making a read on yourself difficult as hell to muster because of long, tedious arguments with people when you're scum.

2. Kudos to acryon for Post 432. Post 449 is a nice follow up.

3. Another thing someone else said that was really on point (this time, Dys in Post 478): "He's also mainly arguing anyone who questions or suspects him. I don't find it town at all. He seems very defensive."

4. acryon's bit about controlling the thread

Day 4

1. such and such about Thor attacking his attacker as the only method for scum to get rid of suspects w/r/t Bob (b/w pages 41-44)

2. revisit Bob's post 1118 suspicion about Thor

[Green Crayons]

@droog:

Right. You have gone back and forth on YYR/Fink. And, yes, the first thing you said this game day was that you would vig YYR/Fink. That doesn't change the fact that you have previously gone back and forth on YYR/Fink.

Does it mean that you are a complete wuss about your reads? I personally wouldn't agree with that statement, but it also doesn't mean that Thor was so wrong that he was lying about your position.

Also, Thor was saying everyone was being a wuss about their reads/votes. He wasn't really making a push specifically against you when he was saying that, was he? I don't see why Thor-scum would purposefully mischaracterize your position if he wasn't going to use it as a part of a case against you (and he had already started saying you were second/third on his vote list at the end of yesterday game day for reasons apart from whether you were being a wuss or not).

-----

Going from lurk scumread to POE buddy scumread is not inconsistent, because in the time between those two reads Thor said he read you as scum. What's weird is not that you're taking issue with his POE analysis, but that for some reason you think that reading shaddow as being a lurkscum - independent of any other player's alignment - is mutually exclusive with reading shaddow as being a POE scumbuddy

after

deciding that another player (you) is scum.

They aren't mutually exclusive positions, they can be held simultaneously after one read develops after the other, and therefore they are not inconsistent.

how much of this do you still agree with?

Uh, I don't know.

I'm skimming over the particular arguments that are being referenced, and I can't really get into the nitty gritty of them. Thor-scum said things that weren't 100% true, but also weren't 100% false, and were very fuzzy. You appeared to be convinced that this made Thor scum. I appeared to be convinced that it didn't make him scum (but I noted immediately thereafter in Post 1845 that just because I didn't think your particular arguments made Thor scum, I still thought Thor was a likely scum candidate).

From my review of the conversation, I think my position is one I would probably come to again in another situation without the knowledge we now have in hindsight, and without the benefit of having this particular experience to reflect upon (which I didn't do until right now, actually).

That said, in hindsight and upon reflection, I do think Thor's play was pretty slippery - mostly in that he was muddling some very fuzzy positions - and that is what you were highlighting. I probably should have taken that into consideration, so that even if Thor

wasn't

"so wrong that he was lying about your position," I should have recognized that a good scum will seek out such gray area.

[Green Crayons]

Even though he made it clear he didn't want to hammer yet, he didn't seem to be doing much "investigating" either. Now that he's posted more tonight, it looks like he's actually still playing, not just doing nothing.

Well, I do agree with this.

[Green Crayons]

9 hours until deadline.

[Green Crayons]

My preference is Riddle > shaddow.

Let me review Thor ISO real quick.

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: Thor's Push On Shaddow

VC 4.14

Bicephalous Bob (5)-

Thor665, droog, Phillammon, Dyslexicon, Fink

LYNCHED

Phillammon (3)-

Shaddowez, Bicephalous Bob, Bert

(L-2)

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (0)-

droog (0)-

Fink (0)-

Dyslexicon (0)-

Bert (0)-

Not Voting (0)-

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-21 20:00:00)

- Oct 21th 19:00 GMT

^^^ That's the previous game day lynch VC. Below is the following day:

Vote: Shaddowez

Do you agree with that Thor?

As town I go after players I think look scummy.
As scum I look for things I would call scumtells and pursue them. I have always said that the best scum strategy is to be aware that town mislynch all the time, and don't get too married to the idea that, as town, you would be more 'right' because...well...no, you probably wouldn't.
People have long said I have a difficult to spot scum game and I have won awards and noms for scum performances moreso than town performances.
There's a reason I have a writeup in my wiki about scumspecting me.

@Thor: So why'd you vote for Shaddowez?

Because I think he is an appropriate mix of scum and null to explore/lynch today.

By my accounting we have, what, three more lynches to manage to hit at least one scum with?
Why not start with a guy I have no real read on of late?

I'm actually interested in what made you change your read of me, considering you had a town read on me in 955. The best guess I have is that I've been focusing on your "town reads", and you're trying to divert attention from the Phil wagon on to me.

Do you think you've managed to do enough to justify me keeping a town read from around 300 posts ago?

You're sounding like Droog from D2. Him and Dys have a couple posts starting in 98 about mislynches, and we see how well that's worked out so far.

I think it has worked out okay, frankly, it's not like we've lost people I've town read.
Do you think it's not working out okay?

I'm actually leaning town on Shadow - if he's scum he's flying totally under my radar.

Ooooh, and such an epic read to reverse on.

I suppose that's a question about how you scum hunt. Are you looking for people that don't "do enough to justify" a town read, or do you look for people that actually do scummy things?

I see no reason I can't look for both and use both as a tell. I do think "doing enough to justify a town read" is a very valid issue to raise at this point. I will agree you've been lurky enough you haven't done anything particularly scummy, but I don't actually see that as a point particularly in your favor.

If you're looking at activity, why isn't Dys on your list of scum reads?

Because she did something that is townish. I will happily agree with you that her play is bad, I've pretty much been saying that since Day 1. But me disagreeing with a playstyle is not always identical to me scumreading someone because I do accept that town can play poorly and at that point it's a question of whether they have done town or scumtells other than the bad play. For wgeurts the answer was 'no' and for Dyx the answer is 'yes'.

Actually, how about you provide a list of scum reads. Since the last read you gave on me is from 300 posts ago, I'm sure some others have changed as well.

I would say Bert with you and Droog in tight competition for second place. If I extend out to 4 then Phil. I would actively oppose a Fink or Dyx lynch at this juncture.

In a decreasing pool starting with ten people, I would have rather seen at least one scum lynched than three townies; so no, I don't really think it's working okay. The more that town does to mislynch people, the less work scum have to do to actually cause mislynches.

That's kind of an empty statement though - you're not dinging the method, you're dinging the result.
Yes, sure, a town lynch is bad - that said, the method has been fine and we are limiting the pool of potential scumspects with each move. Beyond that we can start looking at who is defending or pushing whom and draw ideas from that about possible teams.

Do you have some alternate method to consider, or are you just wanting to be seen bemoaning the town lynches?

It's still a reversal, no matter how strong it was.

Well...okay, but what the hell is this?

If I reverse a weak read that is hardly a shocking or strange thing. that's actually pretty normal. I just lynched a scum read and they flipped town - oddly that makes me go back and reconsider things in a new light. I submit it would be strange if all my reads remained rock solid, rather than having some shift. Also, you *presented* that shift like it was surprising or strange, how do you remotely justify that? A read change is not strange - it is the normal state of affairs. I did a much bigger one to Dyx back a few days going from 'scum' to 'solid town' and you didn't even bat an eye when I proclaimed that, so why does this one bother you so much?

be specific.
Please.
I'd love to hear this.

There are two points to be made about this. First is that results are often based on the methods used to acquire them (and vice versa), so it is generally futile to attack one without expectation of some backlash to the other, which is something I didn't do. Secondly, there was no "method" that I was attacking anyway. What my comment was aimed at was the notion that it is okay to mislynch townies, as we have enough days left to do so while still winning the game. I understand that, unless you're in an extreeeeeeemely lucky game, townies are going to be mislynched, I don't think it's okay to look at it like "Well, I don't care how many townies get lynched between now and then, as long as we eventually catch scum". That shows a lack of desire to actually find scum in any manner other than PoE.

I don't think I buy this. Your comment was along the lines of "cause that's been working so well for us" which is an attack - you were trying to cut down a read of mine and are now basically acting like PoE is an issue.
I have townreads, I won't lynch them.
I have scumreads, i want to lynch one of the bigger ones.
That is PoE, that is the definition of PoE, and it still involves other reads. Now, if we were sitting around in a vacuum just rolling a die and lynching whomever your issue would have a point. But basically you were complaining that I was scumhunting and you look scummy - that's what I got.

Reversing a read is absolutely fine, I never said there was a problem with doing that specifically.

Actually, yeah, you kinda did.

I asked why you reversed your read on me, primarily because you did so with no reasoning whatsoever and just placed a vote.

Did you think I had a strong read on you?

I would question that no matter who you placed it on, not just me. As everybody generally reads things other people post differently, having reasons actually helps people understand why you think that person may be scummy. The primary reason that I can think of to place a naked vote is because you don't actually have reasons for that read, you just want other people to try and read into the fact that you're voting somebody.

So now that my read has been explained, do you have any thoughts on that?

And regarding the early reads, in context you can't possibly have missed the fact that that post was all about Bob's page 2 reads. I said that looking at only pages 1 and 2 I'd have had a null read on Droog. In my first posts of the game I said that I had a townread on him, but those came much later, mostly from his conduct during Thor v. Blair if I remember correctly.

There is no discrepancy there.

I went and looked.
This is all true. (well, the Page 2 basis of commentary part - which is the important part)

Unvote: Shaddowez
Vote: Droog

L-2

To me, it really looks like Thor was attempting to do a Blair 2.0 by arguing about minute points of bullshit that made Thor seem active and insightful.

I'm also not sure what the strategy would be behind Thor suddenly pushing for a scumbuddy's lynch, especially when nobody had previously really suspected shaddow. All the other players Thor had pushed had been town, and so suddenly going "HEY GUYS HOW ABOUT THIS LURKER?" and pointing to his buddy seems out of place.

[Green Crayons]

I am interested in why you're prefer shaddow first, though, droog.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: Riddle

[Green Crayons]

There isn't much to comment on.

I still am at Riddle > shaddow. You're very obvtown at this point.

I don't understand why you think shaddow is scum. You have mentioned lurking, but he doesn't lurk. He just has very well defined times at which he posts -- and he has been posting in those windows all game.

I guess shaddow's biggest fault is that he's been a pretty big nonentity all game. I suppose you could throw that under the umbrella of "active lurking," but it's more of a "be as inoffensive as possible and escape notice." Once again, though, I find it hard to believe that Thor would throw his buddy's strategy under the bus and say "HEY LOOK AT THIS ASSHOLE JUST BEING A NONENTITY!" when nobody was suspecting shaddow. And it wasn't like Thor was under vote pressure at that time, either, so I don't see a "hey this will look good for my buddy when I get lynched" tactic involved, either.

Basically, you're most town. Riddle is most scum. shaddow could go either way, but he looks more like town than scum.

[Green Crayons]

Yeah, they look bad. I awknowledge that. But that's -- again -- not my play so I can't write an inspired defense of why Fink did XYZ at any given time. I don't understand what my comments about Fink's play will add to the game as it stands.

I don't really care about defending Fink's play or trying to justify it, droog. Logically, if my slot is scum, my posts & actions will be scummy as well as Fink's. The fact that has not been found to much degree yet means my slot is town. I welcome you to try and make a case based on

my

actions, and not that of my predecessors whom I can't defend.

This is BS.

Not every action performed by a player in a scum slot is scummy.

The fact that you personally have not engaged in actions that are scummy on their face in the very limited time you have been involved in this game does not wash away the scum sins of your predecessor.

[Green Crayons]

I've never claimed to have been extensively involved in this game. So, that's a cool non sequitur that isn't even based in reality. For the record, relative to the length of this game, my time has also been very limited.

Unlike you, I know my slot is town, and therefore I am and have been willing to defend my slot's previous play. Post 1922. You're just being lazy scum in pulling this "I can't defend the scummy actions of my previous occupants of my slot."

Also, droog is the only one who has repeatedly said that he thinks your play looks town. shaddow took issue with your play in Post 2002. I think your play is null - which doesn't magically make it somehow town, as you not so subtly imply - and there is a clear scum strategy that aligns with the choices you have made thus far. So you're not exactly making a strong showing that balances out the scumminess of your slot's previous occupants.

[Green Crayons]

You say that "you've not doing any actions that are scummy ergo you are scum". That's definitely complete BS.

Also, misrep.

[Green Crayons]

You can't "defend the actions of your previous occupant," but you can "defend his motives." lol @ you attempting to make a pedantic distinction to justify your inaction.

Your analogy is completely insane and doesn't even fit the circumstances of a mafia game, as your previous occupant's scumminess ("guilt") is probative of your own guilt because you share the same slot. To make your analogy even remotely on point: you are a defense attorney (Riddle) who is assigned a client who is wanted for murder (your slot) after the previous defense attorney (Fink, YYR) got disbarred.

I've mentioned issues with your slot repeatedly. You have acknowledged those issues, have either dismissed them as not directly implicating you, Riddle, as a player or have simply said that they were bad in a conclusory fashion.

[Green Crayons]

The fact that you personally have not engaged in actions that are scummy on their face in the very limited time you have been involved in this game does not wash away the scum sins of your predecessor.

You say that "you've not doing any actions that are scummy ergo you are scum". That's definitely complete BS.

You say that "you've not doing any actions that are scummy ergo you are scum". That's definitely complete BS.

Also, misrep.

It's called paraphrasing.

"Paraphrasing" that puts words in my mouth is not paraphrasing, it's misrepresentation.

[Green Crayons]

You're just being lazy scum in pulling this "I can't defend the scummy actions of my previous occupants of my slot."

I can not defend the actions of my previous occupant

. That much is obvious, and frankly it should be to anyone who's been on here longer than a week. I'm not a tryhard nor am I scum so I don't care about polishing up a crystal clear super-town reputation for myself. I

can

however try and defend his motives as I know 100% he's town, but that's irrelevant to me, as I can never fully know why he did something.

If you have issues with my slot, talk to me about it.

I've mentioned issues with your slot repeatedly. You have acknowledged those issues, have either dismissed them as not directly implicating you, Riddle, as a player or have simply said that they were bad in a conclusory fashion.

You've expressed issues with my slot, not me.

Glad you're going in circles.

[Green Crayons]

The fact that you personally have not engaged in actions that are scummy on their face in the very limited time you have been involved in this game does not wash away the scum sins of your predecessor.

You say that "you've not doing any actions that are scummy ergo you are scum". That's definitely complete BS.

You say that "you've not doing any actions that are scummy ergo you are scum". That's definitely complete BS.

Also, misrep.

It's called paraphrasing.

"Paraphrasing" that puts words in my mouth is not paraphrasing, it's misrepresentation.

I'm putting no words into your mouth. You say "You've not engaged in any scummy actions" and "...does not wash away sins of your predecessor". That's exactly what I'm saying. If you're going to be pedantic, which you're doing plenty of tonight, you could argue I meant "your slot is scum", but that's besides the point.

I know you can see the difference between your paraphrase of "you haven't done anthing scummy and THEREFORE ("ergo") are scum" - which is a nonsensical position to take - and my actual assertion of "

even though

you haven't done anything scummy, you are scum because your slot's predecessors."

[Green Crayons]

"I can however try and defend his motives as I know 100% he's town, but that's irrelevant to me, as I can never fully know why he did something. If you have issues with my slot, talk to me about it."

You state that you

can

defend his motives, and then invite me to talk to you about issues with your slot. It's explicitly stated and implied that you were willing to defend motives, not actions.

[Green Crayons]

(But, once again, lol @ this apparently fundamental distinction between motives and actions in reviewing your slot's previous occupants.)

[Green Crayons]

Ah, yes. Explaining a blatant misrepresentation has become reduced to being nothing more than pedantic, which you're adopting as a new strategy on the fly as apparently my use of the word has made it a quick and easy tool for you to pick up.

[Green Crayons]

I look forward to you being hammered, scum.

[Green Crayons]

If you want to look at my voting record of people I "voted for suspecting me" anyway, I'd say I'm at a pretty good success rate.

Who has suspected you in this game?

[Green Crayons]

Yeah, the only person I could think of who suspected you was Thor.

And you voted him after he voted you.

How does that make you have a "pretty good success rate" at voting people who suspected you?

[Green Crayons]

Well shit.

[Green Crayons]

Goddammit.

[Green Crayons]

Nope, I'm sticking to my guns.

VOTE: shaddow

[Green Crayons]

Oh whew.

[Green Crayons]

TY droog for actually being town.

[Green Crayons]

Alright, so what went wrong? Riddle was town after all. I thought his positions and arguments were coming from scum, mainly because I thought his slot was scum. Also his arguments were bad, so that was also a thing.

[Green Crayons]

I agree.

[Green Crayons]

Spoiler: Thor's Push On Shaddow

VC 4.14

Bicephalous Bob (5)-

Thor665, droog, Phillammon, Dyslexicon, Fink

LYNCHED

Phillammon (3)-

Shaddowez, Bicephalous Bob, Bert

(L-2)

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (0)-

droog (0)-

Fink (0)-

Dyslexicon (0)-

Bert (0)-

Not Voting (0)-

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-21 20:00:00)

- Oct 21th 19:00 GMT

^^^ That's the previous game day lynch VC. Below is the following day:

Vote: Shaddowez

Do you agree with that Thor?

As town I go after players I think look scummy.
As scum I look for things I would call scumtells and pursue them. I have always said that the best scum strategy is to be aware that town mislynch all the time, and don't get too married to the idea that, as town, you would be more 'right' because...well...no, you probably wouldn't.
People have long said I have a difficult to spot scum game and I have won awards and noms for scum performances moreso than town performances.
There's a reason I have a writeup in my wiki about scumspecting me.

@Thor: So why'd you vote for Shaddowez?

Because I think he is an appropriate mix of scum and null to explore/lynch today.

By my accounting we have, what, three more lynches to manage to hit at least one scum with?
Why not start with a guy I have no real read on of late?

I'm actually interested in what made you change your read of me, considering you had a town read on me in 955. The best guess I have is that I've been focusing on your "town reads", and you're trying to divert attention from the Phil wagon on to me.

Do you think you've managed to do enough to justify me keeping a town read from around 300 posts ago?

You're sounding like Droog from D2. Him and Dys have a couple posts starting in 98 about mislynches, and we see how well that's worked out so far.

I think it has worked out okay, frankly, it's not like we've lost people I've town read.
Do you think it's not working out okay?

I'm actually leaning town on Shadow - if he's scum he's flying totally under my radar.

Ooooh, and such an epic read to reverse on.

I suppose that's a question about how you scum hunt. Are you looking for people that don't "do enough to justify" a town read, or do you look for people that actually do scummy things?

I see no reason I can't look for both and use both as a tell. I do think "doing enough to justify a town read" is a very valid issue to raise at this point. I will agree you've been lurky enough you haven't done anything particularly scummy, but I don't actually see that as a point particularly in your favor.

If you're looking at activity, why isn't Dys on your list of scum reads?

Because she did something that is townish. I will happily agree with you that her play is bad, I've pretty much been saying that since Day 1. But me disagreeing with a playstyle is not always identical to me scumreading someone because I do accept that town can play poorly and at that point it's a question of whether they have done town or scumtells other than the bad play. For wgeurts the answer was 'no' and for Dyx the answer is 'yes'.

Actually, how about you provide a list of scum reads. Since the last read you gave on me is from 300 posts ago, I'm sure some others have changed as well.

I would say Bert with you and Droog in tight competition for second place. If I extend out to 4 then Phil. I would actively oppose a Fink or Dyx lynch at this juncture.

In a decreasing pool starting with ten people, I would have rather seen at least one scum lynched than three townies; so no, I don't really think it's working okay. The more that town does to mislynch people, the less work scum have to do to actually cause mislynches.

That's kind of an empty statement though - you're not dinging the method, you're dinging the result.
Yes, sure, a town lynch is bad - that said, the method has been fine and we are limiting the pool of potential scumspects with each move. Beyond that we can start looking at who is defending or pushing whom and draw ideas from that about possible teams.

Do you have some alternate method to consider, or are you just wanting to be seen bemoaning the town lynches?

It's still a reversal, no matter how strong it was.

Well...okay, but what the hell is this?

If I reverse a weak read that is hardly a shocking or strange thing. that's actually pretty normal. I just lynched a scum read and they flipped town - oddly that makes me go back and reconsider things in a new light. I submit it would be strange if all my reads remained rock solid, rather than having some shift. Also, you *presented* that shift like it was surprising or strange, how do you remotely justify that? A read change is not strange - it is the normal state of affairs. I did a much bigger one to Dyx back a few days going from 'scum' to 'solid town' and you didn't even bat an eye when I proclaimed that, so why does this one bother you so much?

be specific.
Please.
I'd love to hear this.

There are two points to be made about this. First is that results are often based on the methods used to acquire them (and vice versa), so it is generally futile to attack one without expectation of some backlash to the other, which is something I didn't do. Secondly, there was no "method" that I was attacking anyway. What my comment was aimed at was the notion that it is okay to mislynch townies, as we have enough days left to do so while still winning the game. I understand that, unless you're in an extreeeeeeemely lucky game, townies are going to be mislynched, I don't think it's okay to look at it like "Well, I don't care how many townies get lynched between now and then, as long as we eventually catch scum". That shows a lack of desire to actually find scum in any manner other than PoE.

I don't think I buy this. Your comment was along the lines of "cause that's been working so well for us" which is an attack - you were trying to cut down a read of mine and are now basically acting like PoE is an issue.
I have townreads, I won't lynch them.
I have scumreads, i want to lynch one of the bigger ones.
That is PoE, that is the definition of PoE, and it still involves other reads. Now, if we were sitting around in a vacuum just rolling a die and lynching whomever your issue would have a point. But basically you were complaining that I was scumhunting and you look scummy - that's what I got.

Reversing a read is absolutely fine, I never said there was a problem with doing that specifically.

Actually, yeah, you kinda did.

I asked why you reversed your read on me, primarily because you did so with no reasoning whatsoever and just placed a vote.

Did you think I had a strong read on you?

I would question that no matter who you placed it on, not just me. As everybody generally reads things other people post differently, having reasons actually helps people understand why you think that person may be scummy. The primary reason that I can think of to place a naked vote is because you don't actually have reasons for that read, you just want other people to try and read into the fact that you're voting somebody.

So now that my read has been explained, do you have any thoughts on that?

And regarding the early reads, in context you can't possibly have missed the fact that that post was all about Bob's page 2 reads. I said that looking at only pages 1 and 2 I'd have had a null read on Droog. In my first posts of the game I said that I had a townread on him, but those came much later, mostly from his conduct during Thor v. Blair if I remember correctly.

There is no discrepancy there.

I went and looked.
This is all true. (well, the Page 2 basis of commentary part - which is the important part)

Unvote: Shaddowez
Vote: Droog

L-2

To me, it really looks like Thor was attempting to do a Blair 2.0 by arguing about minute points of bullshit that made Thor seem active and insightful.

I'm also not sure what the strategy would be behind Thor suddenly pushing for a scumbuddy's lynch, especially when nobody had previously really suspected shaddow. All the other players Thor had pushed had been town, and so suddenly going "HEY GUYS HOW ABOUT THIS LURKER?" and pointing to his buddy seems out of place.

Alright, so my commentary was apparently wrong.

Thor-scum motivation for voting shaddow-buddy when nobody else was was that it allowed him to pretty safely vote a bud without too big of a fear of people joining him. At one point someone - I think it was Fink - asked Thor what he thought about the fact that nobody was joining him on his shaddow suspicions, and Thor basically gave the text version of a big shrug. Which is notable in how apathetic Thor was towards getting others to join him on the shaddow vote, in contrast to his pretty heavy-handed push of the other votes (as noted by acryon back when he was criticizing Thor's play).

Thor-scum motivation for jumping off of you and voting shaddow-buddy, and then telling me to join his vote/goading me into voting shaddow by pursuing my own shaddow suspicions, I guess was Thor trying to severely undercut my Thor suspicions by leading the charge against shaddow. Thor was a leading vote candidate at that time, tied with droog - so from Thor's perspective, even if he did get lynched, then his reignited shaddow push would look good for shaddow (it worked).

[Green Crayons]

As for shaddow's Thor vote:

So, at the risk of this looking like an OMGUS vote, I'm going to do this anyway:

VOTE: Thor

He seemed to be making sense most of the game, but now that it's getting down to the wire and there are less other people to pay attention to, he's blatantly not working with the rest of town. He's also discussed lylo a couple of times, making it sound like he knows we're going to mislynch and end up there. I don't like it.

(shrug)

I'm biased because I know that this shaddow post is a scum post from the fact that you haven't hammered yet.

So, trying to evaluate this in the most objective manner, the most I can say about it is that it doesn't say much of anything.

shaddow looks like he feels obligated to vote Thor, but doesn't necessarily really want to: he acknowledges that folks might see it as a OMGUS vote, so preemptively tries to kill that criticism, and then provides some pretty weak justifications.

As for why vote his buddy Thor-scum? I don't know. The VC was droog, Thor, and shaddow all at 1. Maybe he got nervous about him or Thor flipping without him having sufficiently distanced from Thor? Scum are much more worried about optics than town, so he could have been nervous about the following LYLO situation in which both he and Thor survived after having pushed through a droog-town lynch.

[Green Crayons]

Activity.

[Green Crayons]

He's usually unable to post on Friday/Saturdays, I believe. We should get something tonight.

[Green Crayons]

Just lynch him.

[Green Crayons]

So this game can be over.

[Green Crayons]

Alrighty.

[Green Crayons]

Well, that wasn't really a defense, that was his best attempt to call me scum.

[Green Crayons]

droog, please end the game.

[Green Crayons]

I assumed he wanted a defense to 2210 and 2211.

[Green Crayons]

You are an asshole if you're scum. Making us wait for no reason. You are confirmed town. So it's not a matter of whether shaddow might be scum. He is scum from my perspective. Period.

I don't have fire because I don't really have skin in the game. I replaced in late and I pegged the last scum in my initial 3 person scum pool. I think I've done my part as a good townie. I was wrong about Riddle but these things happen. If town loses, it's not on my shoulders, so whatever. Good luck.

I've answered your questions about my play, my predecessor's play, Thor's play, and shaddow's play. What more would you like? A bloated spiel about something? I don't even know what else to talk about. This game is over for me in every way except formally. It's up to you to win of lose it.

I would appreciate winning this game, so this is my formal lodging for you to vote shaddow. His play has been to be safe and unobtrusive, allowing him to fly under the radar all game. The only person who suspected him before LYLO was Thor. Thor's sudden interest in voting shaddow, but not actively pushing shaddow, cannot be handwaved away.

Outside of POE, that's the best case for shaddow being scum. Compare that with shaddow's scum case on me, and then please vote for who you think is more likely to be scum.

[Green Crayons]

^^^ Just reread that this morning.

Any undertones of me being an asshole is not really directed at you, it's just me being ready for the game to end because the fun is over for me, as I now know for certain who is and isn't scum. And there isn't exactly a stellar case on shaddow, so there's not a lot to rant and rave about.

However, unless if you have further questions for me, which I'll be happy to answer, I still don't think there's much else to contribute.

[Green Crayons]

You do realize
Your description of scum play
Fits shaddow more accurately than me
Even given his limited timeframe to post.

[Green Crayons]

I just reread the past three pages.

lol @ your suggestion that my posting reflects a lack of conviction or that I'm being inactive scum more than shaddow.

Spoiler: My Reaction to Riddle Flip; Decision to Vote in LYLO

Well shit.

Goddammit.

Nope, I'm sticking to my guns.

VOTE: shaddow

Spoiler: My Reaction to Being Right About Last Scum

Oh whew.

TY droog for actually being town.

Spoiler: My Explanation of Riddle Flip

Alright, so what went wrong? Riddle was town after all. I thought his positions and arguments were coming from scum, mainly because I thought his slot was scum. Also his arguments were bad, so that was also a thing.

I agree.

Spoiler: My Answering droog's Questions About How Riddle-Scum Fits Play

VC 4.14

Bicephalous Bob (5)-

Thor665, droog, Phillammon, Dyslexicon, Fink

LYNCHED

Phillammon (3)-

Shaddowez, Bicephalous Bob, Bert

(L-2)

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (0)-

droog (0)-

Fink (0)-

Dyslexicon (0)-

Bert (0)-

Not Voting (0)-

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-21 20:00:00)

- Oct 21th 19:00 GMT

^^^ That's the previous game day lynch VC. Below is the following day:

Vote: Shaddowez

Do you agree with that Thor?

As town I go after players I think look scummy.
As scum I look for things I would call scumtells and pursue them. I have always said that the best scum strategy is to be aware that town mislynch all the time, and don't get too married to the idea that, as town, you would be more 'right' because...well...no, you probably wouldn't.
People have long said I have a difficult to spot scum game and I have won awards and noms for scum performances moreso than town performances.
There's a reason I have a writeup in my wiki about scumspecting me.

@Thor: So why'd you vote for Shaddowez?

Because I think he is an appropriate mix of scum and null to explore/lynch today.

By my accounting we have, what, three more lynches to manage to hit at least one scum with?
Why not start with a guy I have no real read on of late?

I'm actually interested in what made you change your read of me, considering you had a town read on me in 955. The best guess I have is that I've been focusing on your "town reads", and you're trying to divert attention from the Phil wagon on to me.

Do you think you've managed to do enough to justify me keeping a town read from around 300 posts ago?

You're sounding like Droog from D2. Him and Dys have a couple posts starting in 98 about mislynches, and we see how well that's worked out so far.

I think it has worked out okay, frankly, it's not like we've lost people I've town read.
Do you think it's not working out okay?

I'm actually leaning town on Shadow - if he's scum he's flying totally under my radar.

Ooooh, and such an epic read to reverse on.

I suppose that's a question about how you scum hunt. Are you looking for people that don't "do enough to justify" a town read, or do you look for people that actually do scummy things?

I see no reason I can't look for both and use both as a tell. I do think "doing enough to justify a town read" is a very valid issue to raise at this point. I will agree you've been lurky enough you haven't done anything particularly scummy, but I don't actually see that as a point particularly in your favor.

If you're looking at activity, why isn't Dys on your list of scum reads?

Because she did something that is townish. I will happily agree with you that her play is bad, I've pretty much been saying that since Day 1. But me disagreeing with a playstyle is not always identical to me scumreading someone because I do accept that town can play poorly and at that point it's a question of whether they have done town or scumtells other than the bad play. For wgeurts the answer was 'no' and for Dyx the answer is 'yes'.

Actually, how about you provide a list of scum reads. Since the last read you gave on me is from 300 posts ago, I'm sure some others have changed as well.

I would say Bert with you and Droog in tight competition for second place. If I extend out to 4 then Phil. I would actively oppose a Fink or Dyx lynch at this juncture.

In a decreasing pool starting with ten people, I would have rather seen at least one scum lynched than three townies; so no, I don't really think it's working okay. The more that town does to mislynch people, the less work scum have to do to actually cause mislynches.

That's kind of an empty statement though - you're not dinging the method, you're dinging the result.
Yes, sure, a town lynch is bad - that said, the method has been fine and we are limiting the pool of potential scumspects with each move. Beyond that we can start looking at who is defending or pushing whom and draw ideas from that about possible teams.

Do you have some alternate method to consider, or are you just wanting to be seen bemoaning the town lynches?

It's still a reversal, no matter how strong it was.

Well...okay, but what the hell is this?

If I reverse a weak read that is hardly a shocking or strange thing. that's actually pretty normal. I just lynched a scum read and they flipped town - oddly that makes me go back and reconsider things in a new light. I submit it would be strange if all my reads remained rock solid, rather than having some shift. Also, you *presented* that shift like it was surprising or strange, how do you remotely justify that? A read change is not strange - it is the normal state of affairs. I did a much bigger one to Dyx back a few days going from 'scum' to 'solid town' and you didn't even bat an eye when I proclaimed that, so why does this one bother you so much?

be specific.
Please.
I'd love to hear this.

There are two points to be made about this. First is that results are often based on the methods used to acquire them (and vice versa), so it is generally futile to attack one without expectation of some backlash to the other, which is something I didn't do. Secondly, there was no "method" that I was attacking anyway. What my comment was aimed at was the notion that it is okay to mislynch townies, as we have enough days left to do so while still winning the game. I understand that, unless you're in an extreeeeeeemely lucky game, townies are going to be mislynched, I don't think it's okay to look at it like "Well, I don't care how many townies get lynched between now and then, as long as we eventually catch scum". That shows a lack of desire to actually find scum in any manner other than PoE.

I don't think I buy this. Your comment was along the lines of "cause that's been working so well for us" which is an attack - you were trying to cut down a read of mine and are now basically acting like PoE is an issue.
I have townreads, I won't lynch them.
I have scumreads, i want to lynch one of the bigger ones.
That is PoE, that is the definition of PoE, and it still involves other reads. Now, if we were sitting around in a vacuum just rolling a die and lynching whomever your issue would have a point. But basically you were complaining that I was scumhunting and you look scummy - that's what I got.

Reversing a read is absolutely fine, I never said there was a problem with doing that specifically.

Actually, yeah, you kinda did.

I asked why you reversed your read on me, primarily because you did so with no reasoning whatsoever and just placed a vote.

Did you think I had a strong read on you?

I would question that no matter who you placed it on, not just me. As everybody generally reads things other people post differently, having reasons actually helps people understand why you think that person may be scummy. The primary reason that I can think of to place a naked vote is because you don't actually have reasons for that read, you just want other people to try and read into the fact that you're voting somebody.

So now that my read has been explained, do you have any thoughts on that?

And regarding the early reads, in context you can't possibly have missed the fact that that post was all about Bob's page 2 reads. I said that looking at only pages 1 and 2 I'd have had a null read on Droog. In my first posts of the game I said that I had a townread on him, but those came much later, mostly from his conduct during Thor v. Blair if I remember correctly.

There is no discrepancy there.

I went and looked.
This is all true. (well, the Page 2 basis of commentary part - which is the important part)

Unvote: Shaddowez
Vote: Droog

L-2

To me, it really looks like Thor was attempting to do a Blair 2.0 by arguing about minute points of bullshit that made Thor seem active and insightful.

I'm also not sure what the strategy would be behind Thor suddenly pushing for a scumbuddy's lynch, especially when nobody had previously really suspected shaddow. All the other players Thor had pushed had been town, and so suddenly going "HEY GUYS HOW ABOUT THIS LURKER?" and pointing to his buddy seems out of place.

Alright, so my commentary was apparently wrong.

Thor-scum motivation for voting shaddow-buddy when nobody else was was that it allowed him to pretty safely vote a bud without too big of a fear of people joining him. At one point someone - I think it was Fink - asked Thor what he thought about the fact that nobody was joining him on his shaddow suspicions, and Thor basically gave the text version of a big shrug. Which is notable in how apathetic Thor was towards getting others to join him on the shaddow vote, in contrast to his pretty heavy-handed push of the other votes (as noted by acryon back when he was criticizing Thor's play).

Thor-scum motivation for jumping off of you and voting shaddow-buddy, and then telling me to join his vote/goading me into voting shaddow by pursuing my own shaddow suspicions, I guess was Thor trying to severely undercut my Thor suspicions by leading the charge against shaddow. Thor was a leading vote candidate at that time, tied with droog - so from Thor's perspective, even if he did get lynched, then his reignited shaddow push would look good for shaddow (it worked).

As for shaddow's Thor vote:

So, at the risk of this looking like an OMGUS vote, I'm going to do this anyway:

VOTE: Thor

He seemed to be making sense most of the game, but now that it's getting down to the wire and there are less other people to pay attention to, he's blatantly not working with the rest of town. He's also discussed lylo a couple of times, making it sound like he knows we're going to mislynch and end up there. I don't like it.

(shrug)

I'm biased because I know that this shaddow post is a scum post from the fact that you haven't hammered yet.

So, trying to evaluate this in the most objective manner, the most I can say about it is that it doesn't say much of anything.

shaddow looks like he feels obligated to vote Thor, but doesn't necessarily really want to: he acknowledges that folks might see it as a OMGUS vote, so preemptively tries to kill that criticism, and then provides some pretty weak justifications.

As for why vote his buddy Thor-scum? I don't know. The VC was droog, Thor, and shaddow all at 1. Maybe he got nervous about him or Thor flipping without him having sufficiently distanced from Thor? Scum are much more worried about optics than town, so he could have been nervous about the following LYLO situation in which both he and Thor survived after having pushed through a droog-town lynch.

Spoiler: Me Telling droog To Lynch shaddow

Just lynch him.

So this game can be over.

Well, that wasn't really a defense, that was his best attempt to call me scum.

droog, please end the game.

You are an asshole if you're scum. Making us wait for no reason. You are confirmed town. So it's not a matter of whether shaddow might be scum. He is scum from my perspective. Period.

I don't have fire because I don't really have skin in the game. I replaced in late and I pegged the last scum in my initial 3 person scum pool. I think I've done my part as a good townie. I was wrong about Riddle but these things happen. If town loses, it's not on my shoulders, so whatever. Good luck.

I've answered your questions about my play, my predecessor's play, Thor's play, and shaddow's play. What more would you like? A bloated spiel about something? I don't even know what else to talk about. This game is over for me in every way except formally. It's up to you to win of lose it.

I would appreciate winning this game, so this is my formal lodging for you to vote shaddow. His play has been to be safe and unobtrusive, allowing him to fly under the radar all game. The only person who suspected him before LYLO was Thor. Thor's sudden interest in voting shaddow, but not actively pushing shaddow, cannot be handwaved away.

Outside of POE, that's the best case for shaddow being scum. Compare that with shaddow's scum case on me, and then please vote for who you think is more likely to be scum.

^^^ Just reread that this morning.

Any undertones of me being an asshole is not really directed at you, it's just me being ready for the game to end because the fun is over for me, as I now know for certain who is and isn't scum. And there isn't exactly a stellar case on shaddow, so there's not a lot to rant and rave about.

However, unless if you have further questions for me, which I'll be happy to answer, I still don't think there's much else to contribute.

Compare with:

Spoiler: shaddow's Reaction to My shaddow-vote

Sorry guys, screwed up my V/LA date this time around.

I looked through the game again, and can't find anything scummy other than how he was acting yesterDay, so I looked more into GC.

YesterDay, GC and Riddle were determined the other was scum. I was basing my belief that Riddle was scum more on what the previous slot holders had done, because neither of them were making an impression on me either way. Now that we know he's town, I'm looking back at VCA to see what makes sense: (I know the D numbers don't exactly match up based on No-Lynches, so assume anytime I use "Day" or "D" I mean lynch)

Both slots were on the wagon D1, which is pretty much a null tell based on the quickhammer by wgeurts.
D2, wgeurts was basically a policy lynch. Riddle's slot was on the wagon, but GC's wasn't. To me, that policy lynch looked more town driven than scum. I know Thor was on the wagon, but considering how many people pushed for it there was no pressing need to have multiple scum on the wagon.
D3, neither of them were on the acryon wagon when it got hammered, and were both on Phil (confirmed town), so there's not really anything to garner here.
D4 - GC's slot put Bob at L-1, and Riddle's slot hammered. Knowing that Riddle's slot is town makes GC's slot look scummier, especially considering D5
D5 - GC's slot puts bert at L-1. Bert was very focused on Riddle's slot, and seemed convinced Thor's slot was town. This is the second Day in a row this slot puts a conftown at slot, making it eligible for lynching without actually doing the deed itself.
D6 - GC, who was riding Riddle for most of the Day, switches votes to lynch Thor. 1917 is very interesting at this point, as well.
D7 - this is a quicklynch on AA9, which Riddle started, but he was pushing for Thor/AA on D6. GC, who has made it obvious he realizes my time-based posting restrictions, jumps right on, knowing that it only takes droog to vote for the lynch.
D8 - Riddle (conftown) and GC are going at each other. This is a similar situation to what I brought up as a possibility for droog. Knowing that droog would be going for me again toDay, it made more sense to try and get rid of the person who would be going for him toDay instead, and have an easy lynch on D9...which leads me to....
D9 - GC votes for me immediately. Regardless of which of them is scum, if droog hammers scum wins. However, if GC is scum and knows that droog is town, he can assume that droog won't hammer. This "proves" droog's towniness, but doesn't reveal GC's alignment.

VOTE: GC

Spoiler: shaddow's Reaction to My Criticism with Passive Aggression

Well, that wasn't really a defense, that was his best attempt to call me scum.

Considering droog's reason for voting me is almost purely PoE and because I'm a "lurker", I didn't see much to defend against. If he (or you, though I highly doubt it) have specific questions about what I did or why I did something, I'll be happy to address them.

Spoiler: shaddow's Reaction to My Explanation of Thor-Scum's and shaddow-Scum's play

I don't know what Thor was thinking or trying to accomplish, so anything I say is based purely off of guessing.

Thor-scum motivation for voting shaddow-buddy when nobody else was was that it allowed him to pretty safely vote a bud without too big of a fear of people joining him. At one point someone - I think it was Fink - asked Thor what he thought about the fact that nobody was joining him on his shaddow suspicions, and Thor basically gave the text version of a big shrug. Which is notable in how apathetic Thor was towards getting others to join him on the shaddow vote, in contrast to his pretty heavy-handed push of the other votes (as noted by acryon back when he was criticizing Thor's play).

Thor-scum motivation for jumping off of you and voting shaddow-buddy, and then telling me to join his vote/goading me into voting shaddow by pursuing my own shaddow suspicions, I guess was Thor trying to severely undercut my Thor suspicions by leading the charge against shaddow. Thor was a leading vote candidate at that time, tied with droog - so from Thor's perspective, even if he did get lynched, then his reignited shaddow push would look good for shaddow (it worked).

Thor first votes me on D5 with an empty vote, which he then explain as being based on no read/lurker reasonings. This is the vote that Fink questions about nobody joining with. He then switches to Droog later that Day based on discussion with Fink. He switches back to me, and a good portion of the early 1500 posts are him trying to convince droog that I'm scum, so I'm not sure where the apathetic push idea is coming from.

I also notice that you don't have anything to say about Thor voting your slot

once

the entire game, and there was zero push for him to get on that wagon. It was just another series of wall posts that didn't really say anything.

shaddow looks like he feels obligated to vote Thor, but doesn't necessarily really want to: he acknowledges that folks might see it as a OMGUS vote, so preemptively tries to kill that criticism, and then provides some pretty weak justifications.

As for why vote his buddy Thor-scum? I don't know. The VC was droog, Thor, and shaddow all at 1. Maybe he got nervous about him or Thor flipping without him having sufficiently distanced from Thor? Scum are much more worried about optics than town, so he could have been nervous about the following LYLO situation in which both he and Thor survived after having pushed through a droog-town lynch.

There was enough push for Thor's lynch that I didn't need to vote for Thor. However, using that reasoning at this point in the game doesn't really matter, because your admittedly showing confbias. Had I not voted for Thor, you would be finding a reason to use that against me. I'm also not sure I understand your last sentence there....if I'm scum, and we know Thor was, why would I be nervous about Thor and I surviving in LYLO?

[Green Crayons]

shaddow is doing exactly what he's done this entire game - by playing it safe, with limited input into the game, he's not going to garner much suspicion.

He got into the thread, saw that I had voted him, so voted me back with a weak case. He then responded to my criticism with a quick throw away. Only afterwards, once I explained that more was expected of him, did he put in some sort of effort to substantively respond to - that is, to engage with - what was happening in the thread.

None of these things, in and of themselves, is alignment indicative. But together, it's exemplary of his play this game: post something that's pretty nonoffensive, let it simmer, don't engage to any extensive degree, fly under the radar until end game.

[Green Crayons]

And, finally:

Spoiler: Confirmed Town's Suspicions Of shaddow

This is a peculiar unvote.

I don't understand your line of thought behind the bolded.

droog wouldn't want to be the hammer? Why not?

Presumably droog isn't voting because he doesn't want a lynch yet. He said as much in Post 2013 and Post 2020. If he was to vote either Riddle or myself, that would put us at L-1. And then you'd just hammer, thereby accomplishing exactly what droog doesn't want yet: a lynch. How does your unvote encourage droog's vote in this situation?

You make it sound like I'm just going to hammer regardless of where he places his vote. It is possible that my idea of where to place my vote will change. Even if it didn't, and droog places his vote on Riddle, I would state intent, giving droog (or you, technically) time to unvote if either of you still didn't want the lynch at the time.

As for why I think droog doesn't want to be the hammer, I don't know. It was just one possibility that went through my head at the time, and the one that made it into my post.

Even though he made it clear he didn't want to hammer yet, he didn't seem to be doing much "investigating" either. Now that he's posted more tonight, it looks like he's actually still playing, not just doing nothing.

shaddow explain why i shouldnt lynch you for lurking

Explain how I'm lurking based on my posting pattern, which has been brought up several times now, and I'll consider this.

When you do come online, it's brief
When summoned you appear late

When posting you say little

Why is it my job to prove you're lurking

Here's what I'm thinking
Riddle/slick has our highest chance of scum
But there is a chance you're it
And I can't compare you nearly as well
As I can trawl through those two slots

Thor did vote you yes
But what are the odds it was a bus?
If you don't have an argument for your township
That doesn't rely on Thors vote
I can't aha it wasn't a bus

Shaddow is a big mystery
He is a nonentity or a lurker whatever you call it

If I lynh wrong today it is shaddow vs he other
Guy

Which will not be an interesting debate at all
And I'm. Not certain Thor wouldn't bus
See the way shaddow voted back? (Will find when on comp)

I'm not so confident in shaddow that I want him near lylo

also see again why i want shaddow
he is starting to suspect me because i suspect him

his argument is easily defeated:
if i was scum i would lynch riddle as presented to me
and then get into lylo trusted with hammer

I striked out the only non-legit suspicions, which was based on shaddow having weird post times.

[Green Crayons]

"ive put so much work into this scumgame
why arent you letting me win yet"

YOU said I was being inactive, as if that was indicative of me being bored scum (or whatever).

I showed you that I have been active, and I've been pressing for you to follow up your shaddow suspicions with a shaddow vote.

You now coming back and saying "Oh yeah I guess you have been active, but your activity could be you just being active scum" is a worthless non sequitur because it goes off into left field, away from your original complaint was that I

wasn't

active, and therefore the more likely scum.

[Green Crayons]

over half of your quoted posts are one liners
which doesnt indicate town or scum

but does not suggest you're being real and genuine any more than it doesnt

Maybe if you read
The substance of those posts
You will see the extent of my emotional capability
On the internet.

[Green Crayons]

He got into the thread, saw that I had voted him, so voted me back with a weak case.

he would have to
its lylo and im the 'clear'

Yes, but an empty vote would have been less suspicious than the weak case he tacked onto it. His used a case to justify his vote, rather than how a town would use a case: to explain why I am scum. If he was town and I was scum, he doesn't need to justify his vote - just like I don't need to justify my vote on him. You just have to explain why the other player is scum.

His use of the weak case comes from a scum mentality: always gotta justify your vote with a case.

[Green Crayons]

are you fucking implying i cant fake emotional as shit one liners too

(not angry proving my point))

First you're angry that I wasn't fired up.
I showed you me being fired up.
Now it's "oh well maybe you're faking it."

Okay.

[Green Crayons]

"When you do come online, it's brief "

why did you strike this one out?

It relates to when he can post. He can apparently only post between limited hours. That isn't alignment indicative.

Contrast that to his decision to limit the scope of what he posts about when he posts.

[Green Crayons]

Scum buddy town. Scum don't buddy other scum.

[Green Crayons]

I don't understand what you're saying.

[Green Crayons]

Scum buddy town. Scum don't buddy other scum.

And by the way, this is exactly what Thor did with me:

Spoiler: Buddying Posts

lol, how is this not textbook active lurking?

YES!

Vote: Shaddowez

Come the hell on!

Because I want the full breadth of your reasons for voting shaddow at all, and for voting shaddow over droog.

I voted Shaddowez over Droog because I think he's the better lynch today and you were the first player to even admit that he looked questionable and I wanted to strike while the iron was hot.

So, vote him now, yeah?

@Shaddow - I seem convinced he's "scum" I presume you mean.
I also seem pretty sold on you being scum, last I checked.
I'd vote either of you - I'm currently voting you because I think Green is a little more sold on you being scum than Droog being scum, and my other wagon mate is being replaced so who knows where that is going - if something changes I'd move in a heartbeat. But at the moment you are my sweet and only love.

Truth be told, though, I'm actually more interested in pursuing my shaddow suspicions. I didn't think I would back when I paused on Page 40, but I'm going to look into that next.

Yes.

<snip>

Which basically leaves you and Arc as theory buddies for me.
And Arc is currently selling you+me so I think that makes it safe for you to rule out her barring a really weird 11th hour bus.
Which means, natch, that I'm not scum from your perspective.

Maybe my mind just isn't in a good headspace at the moment, but I don't follow this.

I'm pointing out that, from your stance, there are basically no scum partners for me. That means, you should be able to deduce that I'm not scum.
Then I'm asking you to vote Shaddow.
<snip>

[Green Crayons]

Ultimate goal for buddying me:

Thor-scum motivation for jumping off of you and voting shaddow-buddy, and then telling me to join his vote/goading me into voting shaddow by pursuing my own shaddow suspicions, I guess was Thor trying to severely undercut my Thor suspicions by leading the charge against shaddow. Thor was a leading vote candidate at that time, tied with droog - so from Thor's perspective, even if he did get lynched, then his reignited shaddow push would look good for shaddow (it worked).

If shaddow vote went through, there was a good chance that I would think favorably of Thor.

[Green Crayons]

You're going to have to explain to me how you think it is scum to scum interaction, and not scum to town interaction like I just explained.

[Green Crayons]

Because I don't see scum motivation in saying "hey scum buddy sheep me after I just sheeped you."

[Green Crayons]

If that was the case, Thor would be directly tying himself to the other scum with no benefit.

I had already said I was looking at Thor, Riddle, and shaddow. Assuming I was scum, I had already put out a list of players that I was willing to lynch, including two players that were not my buddy. I wouldn't need Thor to say "HEY VOTE SHADDOW" in a round about way to get me to look at shaddow, because I had already said I was willing to vote shaddow. I don't see what benefit Thor-scum would get to cozy up to GC-scum via a shaddow lynch. Indeed, he would be tying two scum to a mislynch. It makes no sense.


Contrast that with Thor-scum gets the benefit of GC-town thinking Thor-scum is more town after Thor-scum helped push through a shaddow-scum lynch. Alternatively, if Thor-scum got lynched (like he did), less likely GC-town would think shaddow-scum was Thor's buddy because of that lynch (which is what happened).

[Green Crayons]

How in the world are you even reading that from what I posted?

[Green Crayons]

Contrast that with Thor-scum gets the benefit of GC-town thinking Thor-scum is more town after Thor-scum helped push through a shaddow-scum lynch. Alternatively, if Thor-scum got lynched (like he did), less likely GC-town would think shaddow-scum was Thor's buddy because of that lynch (which is what happened).

This is what happened. This was Thor-scum's benefit for bussing shaddow-scum.

[Green Crayons]

If that was the case, Thor would be directly tying himself to the other scum with no benefit.

I had already said I was looking at Thor, Riddle, and shaddow. Assuming I was scum, I had already put out a list of players that I was willing to lynch, including two players that were not my buddy. I wouldn't need Thor to say "HEY VOTE SHADDOW" in a round about way to get me to look at shaddow, because I had already said I was willing to vote shaddow. I don't see what benefit Thor-scum would get to cozy up to GC-scum via a shaddow lynch. Indeed, he would be tying two scum to a mislynch. It makes no sense.

This is what you are suggesting might have happened. I am here telling you why it provided Thor-scum no benefit to buddy up with me to lynch shaddow if I am scum and shaddow is town.

[Green Crayons]

Word.

[Green Crayons]

Vote shaddow for real this time.

[Green Crayons]

Vote shaddow for real this time.

[Green Crayons]

Thank you droog.

shaddow, I couldn't figure out how not to act scummy as hell this last day for some reason. I think you could've sealed in a win if you went for a bigger push.

Good game everyone.

[Green Crayons]

From GC's perspective they probably should just speedlynch down the list of AA9, Shaddow, Riddleton.

Yeah, I was fine with checking out a little bit because I was as certain as I could ever be in townreading someone that droog was town.

If I stuck to my reads, though, I should have gone Riddle --> shaddow --> AA. Riddle-town has persuaded GC-town to trust him to vote a player I wasn't behind voting in two games, now!