Open 580: Tit For Tat - Game Over!

[Aquanim]

What I'm saying is that I think you're gonna be hardpressed to get a Dave lynch when you offer no arguments for it and neither Bulb nor I am with you on it.

[Aquanim]

If you make a case and convince me, then sure, we can go for Dave.

But you certainly don't have the right to decide who lives and who dies based on vague statements about your gut.

[Aquanim]

seriously? I quote your own lines back at you and you get offended?

[Aquanim]

yeah, ok, I ctrl-F'd "dave" in Paschendale's filter and found a bunch of him asking "why are people voting for dave when there's no actual case"

then again I was wondering that myself all day 1 so... yeah

[Aquanim]

my problem is if they wanted to save Pash
why didn't pash also vote dave who was the CW.

Seems like Dave could be the remaining scum Pr

If acryon or TSO are the last scum Paschendale might not have felt comfortable piling a third scum vote onto Dave. Not saying this is necessarily the only reason, but it's plausible IMO.

[Aquanim]

In the latter part of the day Acryon, TSO, Mala and Luca were voting for a Dave lynch. Mala's vote moved away to Paschendale and TSO's vote moved onto Dave around page 30ish. We know Luca is scum; if one of the other people on the Dave wagon was the third, unknown scum, it might explain why Paschendale was reluctant to move his vote onto Dave, even though it was the greatest counterwagon to his lynch.

Paschendale was also questioning the wagon on Dave all day, with the (reasonable) justification that the wagon had never really been explained. That could be Paschendale defending a scumbuddy or white-knighting Dave but either way it explains why his vote didn't go there.

[Aquanim]

Considering Paschendale was probably going to get lynched either way...

I'm getting real tired of your attitude, by the way. I'm being polite. I could not, if you'd prefer.

[Aquanim]

Meh, I got what I wanted out of it.

[Aquanim]

I'm still mulling over whether he's godawful not-reading-the-thread town, or scum.

Yeah I'm sorry. I got snappy for no reason. Just you saying you/bulba has the more influence in whether or not a lynch goes through pissed me off. I mean if you are town try to work with the other town than playing this card. It's condescending.

Pff, I'm going all the way back to this:

eh just sheep it for now.
scum is already boned so yeah

I'm not a newbie to be pushed around by your say-so.

[Aquanim]

And you're calling me "condescending"? Please.

[Aquanim]

Perhaps, but telling someone to "just sheep me" with no jusification is pretty condescending.

If you can't push a lynch through without my support or Bulbazak's, that makes my statement just as true. I doubt that would make it not offensive to you.

This seems like a waste of time now.

[Aquanim]

You have a lot to learn about me my dear.

I could say the same.

[Aquanim]

@Aquanim

Paschendale was subtly defending dave by questioning his wagon. He didn't know he'll get lynched yet. I don't see how that makes dave town.

It doesn't. I'm just not convinced it makes him scum.

[Aquanim]

for the record, if we're not lynching TSO I prefer dave as a lynch to Nether quite a bit

[Aquanim]

You're getting mad because the person you're accusing of being scum says you're wrong?

[Aquanim]

Because they've read the thread, TSO.

[Aquanim]

Spoken like a true scumfuck.

And how's that?

[Aquanim]

TSO is town

will catch up some other time

yeah, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that a scumTSO would not be this astonishingly, mindbogglingly bad

[Aquanim]

UNVOTE: T S O

[Aquanim]

@Davesaz

, what's your read on Acryon?

[Aquanim]

Can you run me through your reasons to scumread Acryon?

[Aquanim]

Looking at your ISO...
- you discussed his initial scumread re. the joking around with him
- in #343 said he was your top 2 scumread because of association with Spitfire (I think) which is obviously now invalid, they can't both be scum
- and some disagreement with your reads (as you've said your reads mostly didn't work out)

Most of your original arguments why he's scum don't hold up very well at this point. Could you go back and reassess his play d1 (keeping the now known flips in mind) and give me an updated read?

[Aquanim]

Mala's probably town, no matter how much she's ticking me off.
Dave I'm vaguely town on but I'd be hard pressed to give a good reason why.
Acryon... I'll get back to you, might not be all that soon though. I'm staring at his meta and hoping for a revelation. Having only early day 1 play to really work with (anything today and from now on is of dubious usefulness to me) is making the read hard. At the time I was scum on him, now... I'm thinking about it.

[Aquanim]

This puts him on the same suspicion level as the dave and Mala (null with the very slight scum lean).

Who are you strongly leaning scum on?

[Aquanim]

Can somebody remind me why we're townreading Shinobi?

[Aquanim]

What, like the case you made on me?

...wait, what case?

[Aquanim]

My point being that if you seriously want people to talk to or about you with any respect you'd be well served by showing them some respect yourself.

[Aquanim]

Perhaps you thought so. That's no excuse for the disrespect you've shown others in this game.

The reason nobody's discussing their scum read of you is that everyone who shares it knows it's pretty bloody obvious (the biggest part being that you tried to brush off the Paschendale wagon without any decent reason to do so), everyone who disagrees does so for vague reasons of meta none of them will explain, and nobody wants to talk to you about it because you're not an enjoyable person to talk to.

[Aquanim]

I think that's just you - but nice job sidestepping the fact that I was not mean until you began to flaunt your arrogance.

Well, to pick something out at random, this directed at Shinobi was completely unwarranted:

What's so funny, little man

In fact, why'd you say that at all? Serious question.

Actually, I don't see why this makes me scum - I had history of suspecting davesaz, I asked for the Pasch case, no Pasch case was given, so I voted dave. I would love if you pointed out the scum agenda in this. I can't see it - clearly you, though, can.

It wouldn't have been all that hard to find #728 if you'd been reading the thread.
Are you seriously saying that you think opposing a lynch on scum does not fit scum agenda?

So, to put this on context, you're going to completely disregard the word of everyone who knows my townplay because no reason? That's great play.

Am I voting you at this moment? In any case, I'd take them more seriously if any of them seriously elaborated on their meta read. I'm not big on taking people's word for granted.

Again, I've talked to everyone and no-one can back it up, least of all you... save me your rubbish ad homs and admit I'm not scum.

I just did, and I'm frankly not all that interested in your opinion on how good the case on you is.

[Aquanim]

Are you seriously saying TSO, as town, has only ever pushed scum wagons and never defended scum unknowingly? Because that's what you seem to be going for.

Your argument is based solely on these:

1) TSO, as scum, cannot bus.
2) TSO, as town, would have known who scum were.

Both are obviously false.

Not certainly, but it's a balance of probabilities. Have you tried to shut down a scum lynch more often as town or as scum?

I don't have to prove absolutely that you're scum to have a reasonable case, and it's absurd that you claim I would.

I really don't see the point in discussing this with you any further.

[Aquanim]

Aquanim, why isn't davesaz scum? You never gave an actual reason for it.

He might be scum. I'm still thinking about it.

[Aquanim]

There's fun observation:
All the votes TSO made were OMGUS votes.

yes, it's pretty funny the way he scumreads people who vote him, and then immediately steps back the moment they stop claiming he's scum. Can't be assed checking if it fits all his votes but it certainly fits most.
Dunno if it's scummy but it speaks volumes about him.

This is kind of why I want the Aqua/TSO fight to stop: it isn't accomplishing anything and it's not moving the game forward. Nobody is going to lynch either player based on the cases they're presenting against one another and, if either of them is scum, the fight will make them harder to look at objectively.

I dunno about that, by my count there are four people who want him hanged.

[Aquanim]

Imma do this for now.

VOTE: Acryon
- his original case for davesaz in #153 reads very wishy-washy
- I don't much like the way he's always hovering around the edge of Paschendale's scumreads, feels like the kind of place you'd put your scumbuddy
- having looked at his meta I feel like his town game is... more direct, somehow. Not quite sure how to put this, have a look at it yourself (it's on his wiki page).

This isn't a case as such yet, it's an invitation for you to go look for yourself.

[Aquanim]

The irony of you calling me an arrogant cunt never ceases to amuse me.

[Aquanim]

Again, I think you've mistaken me for yourself. I have reasons based on your interaction with other people and lynches why I thought you were scum; wasn't your entire case on me crying over how mean I was?

[Aquanim]

I suggest to at least discuss things happened during D1 to share some extra information at D2 in case any of us active will die at night.

TSO and Mala are useless lurky lurksacks who can hang unless they redeem themselves.

Oh look, it's the first stone.

You think that me saying you've done very little all game and should be lynched for it is a "stone"? Damn, you've got a thin skin.

[Aquanim]

Again, I think you've mistaken me for yourself. I have reasons based on your interaction with other people and lynches why I thought you were scum; wasn't your entire case on me crying over how mean I was?

My entire case on you is that you have literally nothing which I haven't addressed clearly and now, instead of continuing to lose the debate, you're throwing potshots and sideline supporting my wagon?

Please, no more misreps.

You made a fool of yourself trying to debate with me, pretending you'd asked different questions when I answered them and making ridiculous arguments yourself.

I don't expect you to accept that; I don't expect you to be capable of expecting that.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: expecting -> accepting

[Aquanim]

Well, I'll just have to satisfy myself with the four people scumreading you and nobody taking your read on me seriously at all.

[Aquanim]

You might be right about Nether, but right or wrong you're badly tunneled on him.

Hard pushing a case does not equal tunneling.

I'm well aware of that. And I'm telling you, you're tunneled. Maybe there's some good points in here but it's hard to find them amongst you throwing a bunch of at best mediocre stuff as well.

Can we talk about Acryon at some point?

[Aquanim]

UNVOTE: Acryon
VOTE: Netherspite

[Aquanim]

UNVOTE: Netherspite
Sorry to do this, Nether - to be honest I want out of this game too.

[Aquanim]

Can we talk about Acryon at some point?

What do you want to talk about?

Imma do this for now.

VOTE: Acryon
- his original case for davesaz in #153 reads very wishy-washy
- I don't much like the way he's always hovering around the edge of Paschendale's scumreads, feels like the kind of place you'd put your scumbuddy
- having looked at his meta I feel like his town game is... more direct, somehow. Not quite sure how to put this, have a look at it yourself (it's on his wiki page).

This isn't a case as such yet, it's an invitation for you to go look for yourself.

In short do you have any good reason to think he's town? or scum? Do you disagree or agree with the above?

I want this read INDEPENDENT of any PoE from your Nether read.

If you think this is tunneling, then I feel sorry for you when you play with Wisdom.

I've played with far more ridiculous tunnelers than this. That doesn't make this not a tunnel, and honestly I expected better from you.

[Aquanim]

I'm not tunneling. I have a strong case on Nether, and I'm pushing it. Frankly, I find the accusation that I'm tunneling to be a large discredit and attack to my case.

Well, you're quite right. I am attacking your case.

These quotewalls are not convincing me at all. I think you're trying to hard to ascribe a scum motivation to his posts while not considering the possible town explanation.

Can you explain to me, in a paragraph or so, what it is about his play that cannot (or is very unlikely to be) town? What makes him not a townie who was deceived by Paschendale's emotional blackmail? (Hell, I nearly was at a couple of points.)

[Aquanim]

Aqua, don't let yourself townread Nether due to his buddying.

I think in this situation he'd buddy me no matter his alignment.

He's been trying to keep his options open all game

Who should he have ruled out? Acryon, TSO and Luca had large periods of VLA day 1 and weren't really readable. Mala and Shinobi were effectively prod-dodging for most of the same. A healthy amount of paranoia about your play day 1 is to be expected, and if he's town your case on him now might well look dreadful.

I need to think again about his scumread on Spitfire/Xayzeck. He wasn't really trying to get that (his main scumread) lynched towards the end of day 1... but to be fair the town was completely unresponsive to that idea so maybe he just gave up on it.

and has not been looking for scum.

He made a scumread (partially justified at the time) on Spitfire, but I do think he clung to it longer than I'm comfortable with.

He tried his best to derail the Pasch wagon

True, but it's not like you're scumreading TSO for exactly the same, so...

and that WIFOM surrounding his move from Pasch to Luca is exactly what I'd expect from Nether-scum.

Do you have experience with Nether's scum game?

[Aquanim]

Faking reads served the purpose to appear doing something useful while not really doing it.
I don't see any town motivation behind posting random reads and changing them within few posts.

>>> I can't recall any townie forgetting the reads they had 3 posts ago. <<<

...

Do you see the difference between his reasoning in his consequent posts #105 and #107 ?
He's not only changing his reads rapidly, he's also changing the reasons of his reads. The only sane explanation for that is him forging his reads and reasons for them and forgetting them fast.

...
Yeah, Tempest pointed that out too. I'm not sure if this convinces me that he's scum though.
Do you think scum-Paschendale had reasons to behave like that?

>>> Or, more important, couldn't town-Paschendale make such mistake? <<<

This, on the other hand, I don't like one bit.

[Aquanim]

Well, only one of them's scum. Why are you scumreading dave more than Nether?

[Aquanim]

Out of the 3 jokers at the beginning of the game, his was the weakest, and he was the only one that didn't step up his game afterward (Maybe I'm biased here, because I know and understand TSO and Mala a lot better.).

0.o

0.o 0.o

Definitely biased.

[Aquanim]

Give me some time to think about the rest of it, but to say Nether didn't step up his game more than TSO and Mala is blatantly, hilariously untrue.

[Aquanim]

I mean, Nether has more posts than TSO and Mala combined, and many of his posts are reasonably lengthy while TSO and Mala have almost exclusively one-or-two-liners.

[Aquanim]

Cancel that, my mental arithmetic is out: Nether has three less posts than TSO and Mala ccombined.

[Aquanim]

Most of his posts are geared towards contesting townreads without giving his opinion on them either way, like his objective is to keep people suspicious of each other. His actions on pages 4 and 9 are prime examples of this,

The only post I can find on page 4 which remotely corresponds to this is him contesting your quasi-town read on Waffle, which he spent very little effort on and had a legitimate point.
On page 9 he asks you to explain why you think Spitfire is town (since he's currently voting Spitfire this as far as I'm concerned is entirely towny), and contests your TSO read (which I agreed with him at the time was not very persuasive). These are TWO posts out of his 35 or so at that point and I can't find any others which satisfy your description (they are mostly pressuring Spitfire/Acryon and random crap). Most of his interactions with YOU were of that form, but not his interactions with everybody.

and his whole "town is stressful" shtick is something I just don't buy from a newbie town perspective in terms of not having an agenda, especially since he's played elsewhere.

I still don't understand what the agenda behind this could possibly be.

I can go looking for other reasons you had to suspect Nether, but it'd help if you directed me to them.

To be honest though if he was at L-1 I might hammer. I'm getting sick of this game.

[Aquanim]

I don't think your vote puts him at L-1, and I'd certainly give intent first.

[Aquanim]

Wait, there was Mala's vote. It does put him at L-1. My bad.

[Aquanim]

Okay, screw it, let's do it this way.

VOTE: Netherspite

Do you want to hammer?

[Aquanim]

He softclaimed VT in #1012 but I guess we might as well do it properly.

I'm honestly not enthused about this lynch but I won't take a martyr to LYLO on policy so might as well get it over with. At worst we put a townie out of his misery and Bulbazak will have to talk about something else tomorrow.

[Aquanim]

I'm not really, but I'm a pessimist by nature - examining the less pleasant scenarios first.

[Aquanim]

Now that I think about it, there was something else I wanted to discuss. Should we tell the vigilante who to shoot? Or at least, choose a pool of two people or something.

Having the rolecop or JK double up on a vigilante shot target seems exceedingly suboptimal and easily avoided.

[Aquanim]

I already gave my thoughts on the 6 remaining none claimers and how we should handle it.

The three prs should shoot from that pool, but apparently we won't be massclaiming so that won't happen

let the prs do their own thing.

Is there an actual flaw with giving the vigilante a pool of two people to shoot from (so as not to have to shoot themselves, if that happens) so that the rolecop (and JK if they jail offensively) know who to steer clear of?

[Aquanim]

...

Here's something I don't say very often...

Does a mass-claim simply solve the game now?

Town has a JK, Vigilante and (Backup) Role Cop. Since Luca was Goon the remaining scum is a Backup JK, which means the Role Cop is essentially a full Cop. By claiming and then shooting/checking/offensive JKing the unconfirmeds... is there any way for that to go wrong?

It might narrow the field, but I think mass claiming is a bad idea. All scum has to do is kill the JK, and they remove our blocking/protective power while gaining it for themselves. It's not worth the risk, especially when we're holding all the cards.

I also don't like Nether's response to this, as he conveniently leaves the JK dying out of all of his equations.

In relation to this, even if the Mafia get the JK power they cannot use it and shoot at the same time, which probably makes it worthless to them. Not sure what to make of Bulbazak apparently not knowing that.

Also, as long as the (Backup) Rolecop is alive the scum no-shooting to frame the JK target is a losing strategy for them; we just keep no-lynching and the JK keeps blocking the same target while the Rolecop racks up checks until the scum is found.

[Aquanim]

Ordinarily I'm not a fan of directing night actions either, but I consider this a special case.

[Aquanim]

Personally I think it's better to direct the vigilante rather than the JK, since I'd prefer to WIFOM the scum about something that they can do something about (dodging the JK protect with their shot) rather than something they can't do anything about (getting shot).

[Aquanim]

@Mala

1) go get your main
2) do you have an actual reason?

[Aquanim]

Well, if you hammer during my night, he flips town and I'm dead tomorrow... I'd look at Acryon first, but there's nobody in this game I'd put beyond suspicion. Bulbazak's cases have not been impressing me, there's been an awful lot of prod dodging from Mala, TSO, Xay and Shinobi, and I'm finding it difficult to get my head around Dave.

This isn't how I wanted today to go really but I cannot and will not save someone with a death wish.

[Aquanim]

Is acryon really talking about lynching into the Pasch wagon?

lol

I don't see why not. There's a lot of people on that wagon (dave, Mala, you to a lesser extent) who I do not give much towncred to for their contribution to that wagon. At some point it must have become clear to scum that the other lynches weren't going to happen unless they drove them themselves, and I suspect they wouldn't be willing to attempt that, scum PR or no scum PR.

[Aquanim]

I find myself wondering why TSO and Dave don't seem to have any comment on lynching Nether.

[Aquanim]

Or Xayzeck, for that matter.

[Aquanim]

So you did. As for the rest, I'm inclined to agree that such things are very rarely a good reason to stop a wagon at this point.

[Aquanim]

<<insert prod dodge here>>

Doubt I'll need that, but just in case. Not quite sure what my next day or two looks like.

I think I've half-answered Nether's question already; if any augmentation is required I don't intend to give it until other people have given their reasons.

[Aquanim]

@Nether

: If we lynch Luca and he flips scum, who do you think will be the best lynch for tomorrow?

It depends on some other things. I have a clear way to determine that but can't disclose yet or it will break it.

At the time he made his vote for Luca, Nether clearly had some kind of plan in mind which was based on people's reactions to the vote. The important question from my point of view is whether he is a townie who honestly had this plan in mind, or scum trying to push the lynch onto Luca and who came up with the reaction test as a smokescreen.

I'll now explain the reasons my vote is on Luca.

It was more of a reaction test.
Bulbazak initially built a really fast and weak (from my PoV) case on him and was absolutely sure we should lynch him.
However, he later hopped onto another wagon and never seriously attempted to push Luca.

I think Luca & Bulbazak are scum partners. That would be a perfect scum play to semi-bus your partner and hop onto another wagon because you got "convinced".
This way you distance from your partner without creating any real threat to him.

I don't see any reason for the townie to do this thing.
This reaction test was attempt to confirm it (if Bulbazak really suspects Luca more he would use the opportunity to lynch him), but it seems that Bulbazak is really away until the deadline as he promised. So the reaction test didn't work.

First things first: I think this reaction test was poor, to say the least. My understanding was that Bulbazak did not switch from Luca to Paschendale because he thought Paschendale was clearly the scummier of the two, but rather because
1) consolidation was required to achieve a lynch, there had been somewhat more interest in a Paschendale lynch and since weekend was approaching I (Aquanim) would be more able to drive a wagon than Bulbazak
2) since he had posted very little a read on Luca would become much more clear given time than one on Paschendale
Neither of these reasons was eliminated by Nether's vote.

At the same time I don't think that Nether's vote had any significant likelihood of actually achieving a Luca lynch. This was my thought at the time as well - however I'm not sure whether Nether would have held the same point of view. If I'd been scum seriously trying to drive a lynch away from Paschendale it would probably have been Dave since he had 2-3 votes on him already. The other possibility for this as a scum play was that Nether was not seriously expecting to get Luca lynched but was looking to get towncred when and if Luca flipped; however, in that case it would seem more intuitive not to bother with the reaction test.

[Aquanim]

I voted Luca to create some momentum in his wagon to let Bulbazak use the situation and switch back to his "most likely scum". If he would do it I'd decide that he's town who really suspects Luca more. I'd unvote in the same moment he'd vote him.
However, his V/LA didn't let the reaction test to go as I planned (I knew there is a little chance he'll be available to post but I'd like to use even small chance to semi-confirm town).

I did this test because I thought that Bulbazak really didn't want to lynch Luca. I thought he's distancing from his partner and since Pasch is town (I really thought so at this point) he just distanced from his partner and jumped onto real mislynch wagon for D1. This was my opinion and this was what I tried to check.

My point is that Bulbazak as a townie, or as scum with Luca, or as scum with Paschendale and Luca, would almost certainly stick on the Paschendale wagon at that point. Probably even if he were scum with Paschendale but not Luca, tbh, it would have pretty much sunk him if Paschendale flipped.

[Aquanim]

Even with your vote the Luca lynch looked unlikely to happen, and given the amount of difficulty there was in getting a decent wagon going on anyone at all day 1 Bulbazak voting for Luca (thus splitting the votes further) would raise the possibility of inadvertently nolynching, or at best a compromise lynch on Dave or something with the help of the AFK votes from Acryon and Dave (IIRC).

[Aquanim]

It would be an astonishing coincidence if this magical reaction test of yours, as town, just so happened to move from the scum PR to the scum Goon, right?

Yeah, I mean, he had to get really lucky not to be trying to move the vote to any of the nine townies in the game, right?

/s

[Aquanim]

Can people who are town reading TSO refresh my memory on why? We've been pushing Nether for moving from Pasch to Luca, but doing nothing about TSO who was also doing everything in his power to save Pasch and wasn't aiming at someone who flipped scum. Isn't it more likely for scum TSO to aim at town than for scum Nether to aim at fellow scum?

Bulbazak, Mala, Shinobi and Xayzeck are firmly townreading him for reasons they have not adequately explained, and without their votes there is no way to lynch TSO today, so I've dropped it. If I thought the votes were there I would lynch TSO in a heartbeat.

[Aquanim]

You think many things.

[Aquanim]

Bored now.

I tried to read this game and could not last night - I guarantee I will do it today.

Did you do this?

[Aquanim]

UNVOTE: Netherspite

[Aquanim]

I wouldn't bother arguing with him, Dave; there are people in this game who want to lynch TSO and those who don't, and I doubt you'll shift anyone from one camp to the other.

In other news,
VOTE: Acryon
I think I like this more than Nether today.

[Aquanim]

inb4 tso makes some perjorative post about the group of people who want to lynch him

[Aquanim]

My vote is very clearly on you, dave.

Do you even understand the concept of trying to persuade other people to vote for your preferred lynch?

[Aquanim]

Well, my proposed plan would be very simple:

lynch Acryon, shoot Nether, jk and rolecop can do whatever they damn well please

It has the advantages that Nether's already claimed so there's no chance of hitting a PR, not directing the JK means that scum (if not JKd themselves) cannot easily avoid shooting the protected person, and having somebody be both JKd and rolecop'd isn't a disaster.

[Aquanim]

Then you have that absolute goon Aquanim randomly sniping at me while not really taking many stances against me after he realised his grudge lynch isn't convincing anyone. He is townreading you because ...he's never actually told us why he's townreading you, actually, but never mind that.

Well, no... my case is convincing four people. Not my fault you can't count. For the record that's three more than your case on me.

And no, I've never gone into much depth about my townread on dave. I don't see the point unless I think he's actually in danger of getting lynched.

[Aquanim]

So, you won't justify your townread on dave. Got it.

That's actually not what I said, work on your reading comprehension.

I said I'd justify it if I thought he was in actual danger of getting lynched.

[Aquanim]

Do you see how annoying it is TSO when somebody just flings random insults at you with every post they make?

Maybe you should consider not doing that in the future.

[Aquanim]

No, your "not until he gets lynched" is a ploy where you don't actually have to do it until it doesn't matter.

I'm trying not to insult you this time... but this just makes no sense. It's not what I said at all.

If I think dave is likely to be lynched today, and the arguments presented why that should be so do not convince me, I intend to explain why he's a less likely lynch to flip scum than the person I'd prefer to lynch (probably Acryon at this point). In that case it would be my expectation to be able to move the lynch to somewhere I liked it, hence it would "matter".

[Aquanim]

Why do you feel you're above giving reads when asked for them?

Because I'm town, everyone but you knows it, and I'd much prefer to see what other people have to say without having my opinion to sheep.

[Aquanim]

That being said, in other circumstances this game I've quite happily given reads when asked. I'm sure you can find some instances in my ISO.

[Aquanim]

You believe you're town, therefore you don't have to do town things.

This is a really great attitude - I think I'll adopt it.

nonono. EVERYONE ELSE believes I'm town. There's a huge, huge distinction.

I'd discourage you from this, but the fact is I'm not sure how you could do less town things than you're doing already, so I don't really give a damn.

I'm done talking with someone who deliberately misinterprets every post I make. Anyone else want to have a chat?

[Aquanim]

So dave asks for TSO's reads in #1500, then TSO asked for dave's acryon read in #1502 without answering, then TSO accuses Dave of deflecting and not answering questions?

That's hilarious. Sad if TSO's a townie, but hilarious.

[Aquanim]

If you expect an answer from him, it seems like it would be appropriate (not to mention polite) to answer the question he asked first, instead of pretending you asked your question first.

[Aquanim]

In other news,
VOTE: Acryon
I think I like this more than Nether today.

Get your vote back on Nether-scum or explain to me why Acryon is more likely to be scum.

Nether still looks interested in solving the game, Acryon seems solely occupied with not dying (look at the emphasis on that in his last couple of posts). My gut read day 1 was that Nether was town and Acryon was scum. I was sheeping your read on the basis there was something I didn't understand, but at about #1310 I realised the thing I didn't understand was that your reasons were just bad.

[Aquanim]

Also, your attitude to this business about Nether's "reaction test" or whatever has been godawful, and I'm getting nervous about the way people sheeped your godawful point.

[Aquanim]

So long as the vigilante shoots Acryon (assuming the game doesn't end) I'm willing to let you get this lynch out of your system.

[Aquanim]

Nether still looks interested in solving the game, Acryon seems solely occupied with not dying (look at the emphasis on that in his last couple of posts). My gut read day 1 was that Nether was town and Acryon was scum. I was sheeping your read on the basis there was something I didn't understand, but at about #1310 I realised the thing I didn't understand was that your reasons were just bad.

Is it bad to not want to die when you're town? If you know a slot is conf-town, wouldn't you be against a kill on it? The town seems wholly convinced with working out some of the question marks slots, mine being one of them, and I get that. I even tried to organize the town to do so. Obviously I'm going to suggest I be the target of a non-lethal check.

Yeah, that's nice and all, but you had basically no interest in who actually did get lynched today, as long as it wasn't you.

[Aquanim]

I also don't see you interacting with anyone else in the game for the last couple of days, trying to work out their alignment or give more information to the town (whereas Nether, Dave, and even TSO in his own way were).

[Aquanim]

Considering that you were likely going to be the target of the lynch or one or more power roles already... basically your only way out of this, plan or no plan, is to be only investigated by the cop, and shoot them before they can reveal their check. The odds of you only being cop-checked go up with a plan to spread out the PR actions, and you might have an idea who the cop is (I could take an educated guess myself).

[Aquanim]

Yeah, and in that case you'd be screwed - but in your position if you're scum you're almost certainly screwed anyway.

[Aquanim]

Yeah, and in that case you'd be screwed - but in your position if you're scum you're almost certainly screwed anyway.

But certainly I would never offer that up of my own volition. Maybe if scum were backed into a corner, but I wasn't. And there's a difference between being almost certainly screwed (which scum is), and being definitely screwed (which they aren't quite yet).

You're missing my point; if you're almost certainly screwed no matter what you do, offering up a plan which has a small but non-zero chance of working out OK for you isn't a good reason to think you're town.

I suppose either way there's not much point in debating this with you as such, but it's important for other people to understand.

[Aquanim]

Oh joy, more unsubstantiated sweeping statements from Mala.

[Aquanim]

Bulba, me, xay are bad Vig shots for sho.

So who is a good vigilante shot, then? Me?

[Aquanim]

Aquanim's funny when he's frustrated.

I aim to please. Sometimes, anyway.

[Aquanim]

Why not Acryon, anyway?

[Aquanim]

Much as it would please me to see this day over and done with I think there are still one or two pieces of unfinished business. If the deadline becomes a problem, at worst case I will hammer.

[Aquanim]

Happy new year everyone

Intent to hammer when I go to sleep (probably a couple of hours from now) unless somebody else has first; I don't think anything more is going to happen today.

[Aquanim]

Happy new year everyone

Intent to hammer when I go to sleep (probably a couple of hours from now) unless somebody else has first; I don't think anything more is going to happen today.

I'll be around all day right up until almost deadline, so if you think there's a possibility we can get something more today, I can hammer instead.

Putting aside the fact that you've already voted, I'm not sure what else to expect here really. I think TSO's unlikely to be any more forthcoming about his reads, Bulbazak's passed on the option to discuss our conflicting reads further and I think most everyone else has said everything they intend to now.

@everyone

: If the game goes on into another day and I'm no longer around, re-examine your reads on everybody. If it's not Nether and it's not Acryon, then the last scum is (or has been) townread by a fair number of people. Maybe you're the one who got suckered.

I'll hammer in an hour or so I think, unless given reason not to.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: Also this being New Year's Eve I honestly don't expect much reliable activity.

[Aquanim]

If Nether isn't scum, I assume davesaz will be looked at closely tomorrow, as he should be.

True, but I would remember that dave's played more... openly, I would say, about his reads and reasons than Mala, TSO or Xayzeck. Perhaps they can read between the lines of one another's posts. My point is that even if you find some scummy stuff from Dave, I would weigh it as a proportion of his contribution to the thread, as opposed to the proportion of scummy stuff from the three above.

If one of these older MS.net hands is fooling all of the others with their (largely) meta reads on one another, and the rest of us are getting blocked from pursuing them by said meta reads... I dunno what I'll have to say about that. It's unlikely to be complimentary.

I'm trying to decide whether Acryon should claim or not but haven't come to any firm conclusion. Depends how likely he is to get vigged I guess, which depends entirely on who the vigilante is. I think I'll just leave it up to your judgement.

[Aquanim]

you can safely assume that i'm town as you'll see my flip soon anyway and discuss your conclusions from this fact.

My first conclusion will be that bulbazak appending "-scum" to your name in every post today doesn't make it so.

(damn, it pisses me off when people do that)

about Bulbazak: I didn't like his case on Luca, but Luca did flip scum. I don't like this Nether case either, especially in some particulars. I think he's entirely misinterpreted the whole reaction test thing; in the Nether-scum case I don't see that as a serious attempt to shift the lynch onto Luca like Bulbazak claimed, but rather as a safe place for Nether to park his vote. I don't understand why Bulbazak has clung so stubbornly to the first explanation when the second makes more sense. That being said it's possible it's just an OMGUS based on the fact that Nether's reaction test was directed at Bulbazak himself.

I disagree with his general tone reads as well, especially the part where he claimed TSO and Mala stepped up their game more after the first phase of the game. From my point of view TSO and (to a slightly lesser extent) Mala were entirely unproductive day 1.

Does me disagreeing with his read(s) make him scum? Not necessarily, but it does make me nervous. Trouble is, I don't think I know how to read him - if it's still my problem tomorrow perhaps I'll have to try harder to work it out.

[Aquanim]

Lurk lurk lurk.

Still kind of upset that Mala called a shot on me for no reason but I don't think I'm getting an answer for that today. Tomorrow, prbs.

whoa, whoa, whoa... hold the phone

"Tomorrow"?

[Aquanim]

I mean, plenty of other people (myself among them) have talked about this game going another day... but something, I'm not quite sure what, smells about #1583. I don't like it.

If it comes to that, make sure you give Shinobi a really, really good looking at. I remember a lot of "I'm too lazy to make a case" and so forth in his posts, which if cliched is still a way for scum to get away with not contributing. I really don't like that he tried to break up the interaction between myself and TSO,

without

supplying something new to talk about (which one would think would be the obvious, easy way to do that). For that matter, his posts earlier in the game complaining about walls and the length of the thread (I think I'm remembering right here) were... odd at best, coming from a TL.net player. The background we share had a LOT of walls and spam to read.

Take a look through his posts and think "What has actually been accomplished here?", in day 1 and day 2. The answer's not zero, but...

[Aquanim]

Shinobi and Davesaz are my top two scum-reads for a reason. If Nether is town, the chances of scum not being one of the two seems very low.

If I die because you morons think I scumslipped I will go to your house and poop in your shoes.

This seems like a serious overreaction.

Shinobi and Davesaz are my top two scum-reads for a reason. If Nether is town, the chances of scum not being one of the two seems very low.

If I die because you morons think I scumslipped I will go to your house and poop in your shoes.

Don't worry; I'll likely still be vigged, but they'll get you and Dave tomorrow if we get there.

I think I could live with either of you getting shot. TSO too, though that might just be because I'm tired of trying to talk with him. Not keen on a Dave shot.

I'm getting tired so I don't intend to do any more analysis, I'm not sure I'll be up in time to hammer in the morning, and since it's New Year I don't feel like running it up to the wire and leaving someone else to hammer is prudent. Anyone here got anything else to say?

[Aquanim]

screw it.

UNVOTE: Acryon
VOTE: Netherspite

[Aquanim]

So what do people think I am?!?

Either a PR (which leaves vig I guess) or a townie softclaiming PR at a couple of points.

Still sad we lynched Nether, but not much to be done after that selfvote I guess.

VOTE: TSO
Is that hammer or do we need a few more? Didn't really count.

[Aquanim]

Actually I think it was one over the hammer. Whoops, whatever.

@Acryon

: I was starting to have second thoughts about lynching you; the trouble was that I got a lot of my reads on people this game out of the latter part of day 1, since it was probably the most important time in this game, and you weren't present at all. Lacking that, all I had to play was my vague scum gutread from the start of day 1. I actually find they're moderately accurate in general, but obviously not flawless, especially when the person in question is distracted by RL. Getting reads out of day 2 felt a little dubious to me, since even townies might not really care who got lynched.
By the way, congratulations on the newest addition to your family.

[Aquanim]

I was going to have some words with some people about some things but I don't really feel like I need to any more.

[Aquanim]

Claim: Backup Role Cop

I missed my first night investigation because I procrastinated
...

[Aquanim]

Haha did I drop a lot of pr tells? I'm interested in bettering my pr play

probably by first not forgetting to send in a night action hm

Actually, the biggest PR tell from your slot was not from you, I don't think. Spitfire being blissfully unconcerned about the wagon building on him was a pretty clear PR tell in hindsight.

I'm not suprised Shinobi was a PR but nor would I have particularly guessed it.

(If it's not obvious, and wasn't obvious at any point, yes I was VT.)

[Aquanim]

...wait, what? As far as I know, being JK'd doesn't stop you from being checked by a cop.

[Aquanim]

I can't find any indication in the specific setup for this game that JKing the target would stop the cop getting a check, it's listed as a variation rather than the usual effect on the Jailkeeper wiki page, and I don't think I've ever seen a JK do that myself. Not that I'm very familiar with site meta when it comes to PRs, so I could be wrong.

Agreed with Shinobi, votecounts/flips were regular and replacements were reasonably prompt.

[Aquanim]

But, I'm in the minority for being a fan of policy lynching people for anti-town play and not coddling them.

Just because someone got handed a town role PM doesn't mean they're playing to town wincon. Not thinking of anyone in this game or even on this site, but I've encountered one or two players whose mislynches (when they were town) seemed to improve town's odds of victory.

[Aquanim]

Thanks. Don't worry about it too much, I've had worse. I can't imagine I was the soul of diplomacy and courtesy at all points, either.