Open 580: Tit For Tat - Game Over!
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In post 1110, Malakittens wrote:my problem is if they wanted to save Pash
why didn't pash also vote dave who was the CW.
Seems like Dave could be the remaining scum Pr
If acryon or TSO are the last scum Paschendale might not have felt comfortable piling a third scum vote onto Dave. Not saying this is necessarily the only reason, but it's plausible IMO.- Aquanim
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In the latter part of the day Acryon, TSO, Mala and Luca were voting for a Dave lynch. Mala's vote moved away to Paschendale and TSO's vote moved onto Dave around page 30ish. We know Luca is scum; if one of the other people on the Dave wagon was the third, unknown scum, it might explain why Paschendale was reluctant to move his vote onto Dave, even though it was the greatest counterwagon to his lynch.
Paschendale was also questioning the wagon on Dave all day, with the (reasonable) justification that the wagon had never really been explained. That could be Paschendale defending a scumbuddy or white-knighting Dave but either way it explains why his vote didn't go there.- Aquanim
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I'm still mulling over whether he's godawful not-reading-the-thread town, or scum.
In post 1132, Malakittens wrote:
Yeah I'm sorry. I got snappy for no reason. Just you saying you/bulba has the more influence in whether or not a lynch goes through pissed me off. I mean if you are town try to work with the other town than playing this card. It's condescending.
Pff, I'm going all the way back to this:
I'm not a newbie to be pushed around by your say-so.- Aquanim
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In post 1139, Malakittens wrote:You have a lot to learn about me my dear.
I could say the same.- Aquanim
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In post 1149, Netherspite wrote:
@Aquanim
Paschendale was subtly defending dave by questioning his wagon. He didn't know he'll get lynched yet. I don't see how that makes dave town.
It doesn't. I'm just not convinced it makes him scum.- Aquanim
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In post 1171, T S O wrote:Spoken like a true scumfuck.
And how's that?- Aquanim
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yeah, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that a scumTSO would not be this astonishingly, mindbogglingly bad- Aquanim
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Looking at your ISO...
- you discussed his initial scumread re. the joking around with him
- in #343 said he was your top 2 scumread because of association with Spitfire (I think) which is obviously now invalid, they can't both be scum
- and some disagreement with your reads (as you've said your reads mostly didn't work out)
Most of your original arguments why he's scum don't hold up very well at this point. Could you go back and reassess his play d1 (keeping the now known flips in mind) and give me an updated read?- Aquanim
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Mala's probably town, no matter how much she's ticking me off.
Dave I'm vaguely town on but I'd be hard pressed to give a good reason why.
Acryon... I'll get back to you, might not be all that soon though. I'm staring at his meta and hoping for a revelation. Having only early day 1 play to really work with (anything today and from now on is of dubious usefulness to me) is making the read hard. At the time I was scum on him, now... I'm thinking about it.- Aquanim
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In post 1184, Netherspite wrote:
This puts him on the same suspicion level as the dave and Mala (null with the very slight scum lean).
Who are you strongly leaning scum on?- Aquanim
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Perhaps you thought so. That's no excuse for the disrespect you've shown others in this game.
The reason nobody's discussing their scum read of you is that everyone who shares it knows it's pretty bloody obvious (the biggest part being that you tried to brush off the Paschendale wagon without any decent reason to do so), everyone who disagrees does so for vague reasons of meta none of them will explain, and nobody wants to talk to you about it because you're not an enjoyable person to talk to.- Aquanim
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In post 1196, T S O wrote:
I think that's just you - but nice job sidestepping the fact that I was not mean until you began to flaunt your arrogance.
Well, to pick something out at random, this directed at Shinobi was completely unwarranted:
In post 959, T S O wrote:What's so funny, little man
In fact, why'd you say that at all? Serious question.
Actually, I don't see why this makes me scum - I had history of suspecting davesaz, I asked for the Pasch case, no Pasch case was given, so I voted dave. I would love if you pointed out the scum agenda in this. I can't see it - clearly you, though, can.
It wouldn't have been all that hard to find #728 if you'd been reading the thread.
Are you seriously saying that you think opposing a lynch on scum does not fit scum agenda?
So, to put this on context, you're going to completely disregard the word of everyone who knows my townplay because no reason? That's great play.
Am I voting you at this moment? In any case, I'd take them more seriously if any of them seriously elaborated on their meta read. I'm not big on taking people's word for granted.
Again, I've talked to everyone and no-one can back it up, least of all you... save me your rubbish ad homs and admit I'm not scum.
I just did, and I'm frankly not all that interested in your opinion on how good the case on you is.- Aquanim
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In post 1201, T S O wrote:Are you seriously saying TSO, as town, has only ever pushed scum wagons and never defended scum unknowingly? Because that's what you seem to be going for.
Your argument is based solely on these:
1) TSO, as scum, cannot bus.
2) TSO, as town, would have known who scum were.
Both are obviously false.
Not certainly, but it's a balance of probabilities. Have you tried to shut down a scum lynch more often as town or as scum?
I don't have to prove absolutely that you're scum to have a reasonable case, and it's absurd that you claim I would.
I really don't see the point in discussing this with you any further.- Aquanim
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In post 1202, T S O wrote:Aquanim, why isn't davesaz scum? You never gave an actual reason for it.
He might be scum. I'm still thinking about it.- Aquanim
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yes, it's pretty funny the way he scumreads people who vote him, and then immediately steps back the moment they stop claiming he's scum. Can't be assed checking if it fits all his votes but it certainly fits most.
Dunno if it's scummy but it speaks volumes about him.
In post 1229, Shinobi wrote:This is kind of why I want the Aqua/TSO fight to stop: it isn't accomplishing anything and it's not moving the game forward. Nobody is going to lynch either player based on the cases they're presenting against one another and, if either of them is scum, the fight will make them harder to look at objectively.
I dunno about that, by my count there are four people who want him hanged.- Aquanim
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Imma do this for now.
VOTE: Acryon
- his original case for davesaz in #153 reads very wishy-washy
- I don't much like the way he's always hovering around the edge of Paschendale's scumreads, feels like the kind of place you'd put your scumbuddy
- having looked at his meta I feel like his town game is... more direct, somehow. Not quite sure how to put this, have a look at it yourself (it's on his wiki page).
This isn't a case as such yet, it's an invitation for you to go look for yourself.- Aquanim
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In post 1263, T S O wrote:In post 890, Aquanim wrote:In post 888, Netherspite wrote:I suggest to at least discuss things happened during D1 to share some extra information at D2 in case any of us active will die at night.
TSO and Mala are useless lurky lurksacks who can hang unless they redeem themselves.
Oh look, it's the first stone.
You think that me saying you've done very little all game and should be lynched for it is a "stone"? Damn, you've got a thin skin.- Aquanim
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In post 1264, T S O wrote:In post 1262, Aquanim wrote:Again, I think you've mistaken me for yourself. I have reasons based on your interaction with other people and lynches why I thought you were scum; wasn't your entire case on me crying over how mean I was?
My entire case on you is that you have literally nothing which I haven't addressed clearly and now, instead of continuing to lose the debate, you're throwing potshots and sideline supporting my wagon?
Please, no more misreps.
You made a fool of yourself trying to debate with me, pretending you'd asked different questions when I answered them and making ridiculous arguments yourself.
I don't expect you to accept that; I don't expect you to be capable of expecting that.- Aquanim
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In post 1280, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 1095, Aquanim wrote:
You might be right about Nether, but right or wrong you're badly tunneled on him.
Hard pushing a case does not equal tunneling.
I'm well aware of that. And I'm telling you, you're tunneled. Maybe there's some good points in here but it's hard to find them amongst you throwing a bunch of at best mediocre stuff as well.
Can we talk about Acryon at some point?- Aquanim
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In post 1258, Aquanim wrote:Imma do this for now.
VOTE: Acryon
- his original case for davesaz in #153 reads very wishy-washy
- I don't much like the way he's always hovering around the edge of Paschendale's scumreads, feels like the kind of place you'd put your scumbuddy
- having looked at his meta I feel like his town game is... more direct, somehow. Not quite sure how to put this, have a look at it yourself (it's on his wiki page).
This isn't a case as such yet, it's an invitation for you to go look for yourself.
In short do you have any good reason to think he's town? or scum? Do you disagree or agree with the above?
I want this read INDEPENDENT of any PoE from your Nether read.
If you think this is tunneling, then I feel sorry for you when you play with Wisdom.
I've played with far more ridiculous tunnelers than this. That doesn't make this not a tunnel, and honestly I expected better from you.- Aquanim
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In post 1301, Bulbazak wrote:
I'm not tunneling. I have a strong case on Nether, and I'm pushing it. Frankly, I find the accusation that I'm tunneling to be a large discredit and attack to my case.
Well, you're quite right. I am attacking your case.
These quotewalls are not convincing me at all. I think you're trying to hard to ascribe a scum motivation to his posts while not considering the possible town explanation.
Can you explain to me, in a paragraph or so, what it is about his play that cannot (or is very unlikely to be) town? What makes him not a townie who was deceived by Paschendale's emotional blackmail? (Hell, I nearly was at a couple of points.)- Aquanim
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Aqua, don't let yourself townread Nether due to his buddying.
I think in this situation he'd buddy me no matter his alignment.
He's been trying to keep his options open all game
Who should he have ruled out? Acryon, TSO and Luca had large periods of VLA day 1 and weren't really readable. Mala and Shinobi were effectively prod-dodging for most of the same. A healthy amount of paranoia about your play day 1 is to be expected, and if he's town your case on him now might well look dreadful.
I need to think again about his scumread on Spitfire/Xayzeck. He wasn't really trying to get that (his main scumread) lynched towards the end of day 1... but to be fair the town was completely unresponsive to that idea so maybe he just gave up on it.
and has not been looking for scum.
He made a scumread (partially justified at the time) on Spitfire, but I do think he clung to it longer than I'm comfortable with.
He tried his best to derail the Pasch wagon
True, but it's not like you're scumreading TSO for exactly the same, so...
and that WIFOM surrounding his move from Pasch to Luca is exactly what I'd expect from Nether-scum.
Do you have experience with Nether's scum game?- Aquanim
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In post 608, Netherspite wrote:Faking reads served the purpose to appear doing something useful while not really doing it.
I don't see any town motivation behind posting random reads and changing them within few posts.>>> I can't recall any townie forgetting the reads they had 3 posts ago. <<<
...
Do you see the difference between his reasoning in his consequent posts #105 and #107 ?
He's not only changing his reads rapidly, he's also changing the reasons of his reads. The only sane explanation for that is him forging his reads and reasons for them and forgetting them fast.
In post 446, Netherspite wrote:
...
Yeah, Tempest pointed that out too. I'm not sure if this convinces me that he's scum though.
Do you think scum-Paschendale had reasons to behave like that?>>> Or, more important, couldn't town-Paschendale make such mistake? <<<
This, on the other hand, I don't like one bit.- Aquanim
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In post 1002, Aquanim wrote:In post 222, Shinobi wrote:Most of his posts are geared towards contesting townreads without giving his opinion on them either way, like his objective is to keep people suspicious of each other. His actions on pages 4 and 9 are prime examples of this,
The only post I can find on page 4 which remotely corresponds to this is him contesting your quasi-town read on Waffle, which he spent very little effort on and had a legitimate point.
On page 9 he asks you to explain why you think Spitfire is town (since he's currently voting Spitfire this as far as I'm concerned is entirely towny), and contests your TSO read (which I agreed with him at the time was not very persuasive). These are TWO posts out of his 35 or so at that point and I can't find any others which satisfy your description (they are mostly pressuring Spitfire/Acryon and random crap). Most of his interactions with YOU were of that form, but not his interactions with everybody.
and his whole "town is stressful" shtick is something I just don't buy from a newbie town perspective in terms of not having an agenda, especially since he's played elsewhere.
I still don't understand what the agenda behind this could possibly be.
I can go looking for other reasons you had to suspect Nether, but it'd help if you directed me to them.
To be honest though if he was at L-1 I might hammer. I'm getting sick of this game.- Aquanim
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He softclaimed VT in #1012 but I guess we might as well do it properly.
I'm honestly not enthused about this lynch but I won't take a martyr to LYLO on policy so might as well get it over with. At worst we put a townie out of his misery and Bulbazak will have to talk about something else tomorrow.- Aquanim
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In post 1333, Malakittens wrote:I already gave my thoughts on the 6 remaining none claimers and how we should handle it.
The three prs should shoot from that pool, but apparently we won't be massclaiming so that won't happen
let the prs do their own thing.
Is there an actual flaw with giving the vigilante a pool of two people to shoot from (so as not to have to shoot themselves, if that happens) so that the rolecop (and JK if they jail offensively) know who to steer clear of?- Aquanim
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In post 1093, Bulbazak wrote:
...
In post 1014, Aquanim wrote:Here's something I don't say very often...
Does a mass-claim simply solve the game now?
Town has a JK, Vigilante and (Backup) Role Cop. Since Luca was Goon the remaining scum is a Backup JK, which means the Role Cop is essentially a full Cop. By claiming and then shooting/checking/offensive JKing the unconfirmeds... is there any way for that to go wrong?
It might narrow the field, but I think mass claiming is a bad idea. All scum has to do is kill the JK, and they remove our blocking/protective power while gaining it for themselves. It's not worth the risk, especially when we're holding all the cards.
I also don't like Nether's response to this, as he conveniently leaves the JK dying out of all of his equations.
In relation to this, even if the Mafia get the JK power they cannot use it and shoot at the same time, which probably makes it worthless to them. Not sure what to make of Bulbazak apparently not knowing that.
Also, as long as the (Backup) Rolecop is alive the scum no-shooting to frame the JK target is a losing strategy for them; we just keep no-lynching and the JK keeps blocking the same target while the Rolecop racks up checks until the scum is found. - Aquanim
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