LOLhammering

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Post Post #23 (isolation #0) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:52 pm

Post by Psyche »

In post 21, GreyICE wrote:
In post 16, Magua wrote:
In post 9, Klick wrote:It would be interesting to see a mechanic that stops quickhammers from happening. Something like, the day ends if someone keeps a majority of votes on them for 24 hours. It would change several aspects of the game.


This has come up before; I know GreyICE had a 24-hour grace period after a hammer for people to unvote in one of his Mini Themes, though the intention was to keep the scum from quickhammering in lylo if I recall correctly.


I wanted to see how players would use it. In practice it worked miserably.

It turns out the nice thing about hammers is that the debate ends. With a 24 hour grace period someone on the wagon ALWAYS gets cold feet for the first few days, so it just stretches to deadline.


maybe it's better to have just around an hour?
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Post Post #31 (isolation #1) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:05 am

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I've never really been convinced that cases work.
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Post Post #41 (isolation #2) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:10 am

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In post 36, Muffin wrote:
In post 31, Psyche wrote:I've never really been convinced that cases work.


It's not about making huge textwalls, it's about being able to demonstrate a cogent, traceable town-minded thought process.

Giving towncred to people who post inane shit like "#123 is p town, #321 is p scum" and nothing else just makes it significantly easier for scum to hide and "act town".


If "#123 is p town, #321 is p scum" can achieve the same results as "cogent, traceable town-minded thought process", then they're both equally inane by at least one standard.

But you don't seem to be arguing that the two are better approach to finding scum. Instead, you seem to be arguing that scum and town are more obvious when everyone engages in the latter rather than the former. That's cool, but if you can't credibly show people that they will lynch scum more often if they take the time to engage in these "cogent, traceable town-minded thought process", I don't see how you can expect people who do agree to play the game your way to do so in a manner that looks genuine.

It's as if you're telling some dude to participate in a religious ceremony that he doesn't believe in, all while planning to kill him if it doesn't look like he's doing it with conviction. Ridiculous.
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Post Post #43 (isolation #3) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:32 am

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I do believe that there are good cases, and good ways to build cases.

But I also think that readiness to make posts like "#123 is p town, #321 is p scum" comes from decisions by individual players about the relative effectiveness of strategies for finding scum. Would the average player find scum more reliably if he engaged in some demonstrably cogent, traceable town-minded thought process rather than use his gut when reading a thread? I really doubt it. I really do.

And I think part of the reason is because our only guidance on what goes into a good case is a wiki of lame scumtells.
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Post Post #45 (isolation #4) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:19 am

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I can point to at least one anecdotal bit of evidence, which is Wisdom and maybe one or two others in Mastin's recently completed bastard Large Theme. Wisdom didn't display an ounce of what I would call "a town thought process" but for reasons passing understanding, others were townreading that slot. Myself and a few others fought a huge uphill battle to get Wisdom lynched, often against misguided townies.

Titus, on the other hand, did a really good job of presenting argumentation with seemingly-consistent reasonings and might have won the game. She certainly had me fooled.

IMHO this reinforces my point: people shouldn't give a person towncred for just making declarative statements without providing the accompanying reasoning or thought process.


It seems like it underscores the problem with treating "presenting argumentation with seemingly-consistent reasonings" like a towntell.

And your analogy doesn't really seem to go anywhere
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Post Post #48 (isolation #5) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:00 am

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Okay. My understanding of your (and I guess Bro's) argument is thus:

Playing by "gut" is better because scum can't fabricate plausible cases to look town or get a mislynch
Requiring people to actually show traces of a thought process makes the playing field tilted in favour of strong communicators
Scum can post "cases" that are fabricated, therefore cases should never be used


I don't think either of us has these positions.

I'm saying that encouraging a dumbed-down style of play where everyone just goes "psyche is p scummy for #404" but never is held accountable for why hypothetical post #404 is actually scummy is analogous to the growing anti-intellectualism movement in America and elsewhere in society.

I mean, suppose you have a 10 player game where every single player just does what BROseidon suggests and acts completely illogical, voting entirely on gut instinct. Is there any meaningful way such a game would be different than playing "single player" against 9 bots?


I think you're picking at a strawman. No gut player refuses to be held accountable for their votes. No gut player solely goes "psyche is p scummy for #404" and stops there, only repeating themselves. No gut player eschews "logic". And no one is saying that people should be encouraged to be gut players.

Case players justify their votes with beliefs about how scum behave and push lynches by explaining and arguing for those beliefs.
Gut players justify their votes with affective reactions and push lynches by getting other players to experience those same reactions.
That's the key difference and there is no black-and-white difference in their validity as approaches to scumhunting.
They both demonstrably work.
And you can discern the townhood of both by examining how convincingly they justify, build, and then organize the town around their reads.
Saying "I have this read" over and over again is not how anyone plays mafia.

When someone has a gut read and you tell them to pretend that it's not a gut read so that you can read them more easily (which is what your anti-gut position does), you're telling them to lie about the basis of their read and hoping to pull out a idea of their alliance from it. I think that's really silly.

Here's my position:
The idea that players are undiscernable black boxes when they justify their votes with a gut read is false. The idea that players are miles better scumhunters when they use what you characterize as logic to motivate their votes is false. The idea that players (like titus) should accrue townreads because they post plausible-sounding cases from time to time is also false. The idea that gut readers cannot coherently communicate and advocate for the wagons they lead is false. The idea that people who predominantly use gut reads are "inane" and people who don't are superior players - well that's just in bad taste.

I don't think we should move to a primarily case or gut based method. Everyone should just try to figure it out for themselves.
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Post Post #52 (isolation #6) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:20 am

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I really dodged a snark bullet there.
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Post Post #76 (isolation #7) » Thu May 14, 2015 8:23 am

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which are two of the things I excel at


not to toot my own horn or anything
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Post Post #86 (isolation #8) » Sun May 17, 2015 6:42 pm

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is there any real reason to think that or are you just saying so
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Post Post #97 (isolation #9) » Fri May 22, 2015 7:54 pm

Post by Psyche »

In post 90, Muffin wrote:
In post 86, Psyche wrote:is there any real reason to think that or are you just saying so

Looming deadlines are a great way to "compromise" and vote a mislynch as scum.


but it sounds like a town full of people with this attitude have the same problem but a few days before deadline
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Post Post #99 (isolation #10) » Sat May 23, 2015 4:02 pm

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"Oh, we'd better lynch before deadline or something bad at happen" creates an artificial deadline some time before the actual one.
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Post Post #101 (isolation #11) » Sat May 23, 2015 9:11 pm

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It happens almost every time someone makes in-game the argument you're making?

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