Mini 1665: Papers, Please Mafia (Game Over)

[Kop]

VOTE: Wrong Song

[Kop]

RQS Question Time

If you're town, you'll answer and if you're scum you won't so the vig has a clear shot

1. What are your thoughts on meta and how effective is it in scum hunting?

I have been on this site since 2013 but only played a few games so I'd still class myself as fairly new over here. I don't generally use Meta as it doesn't really give a true picture, however it can give a reflection on possibilities but not a given that it's truthful.

2. What is the main tool you rely on for scum hunting (VCA, interaction or behavioral analysis, whim, etc)?

I generally use interactions. VCA I normally look at who started the wagon, what basis it was started on, and who dropped the hammer. Don't normally rely on gut instincts because majority of the time it's wrong.

3. Favorite TV show of all time

24

4. The sneakiest thing you did as scum and the stupidest thing you did as town?

I don't recall doing anything stupid in all the games I've played.

My answers in bold.

[Kop]

I've knacked up question 3, but my fav tv show is 24.

[Kop]

Which one did I miss? As I can see it I have answered all 4 questions.

[Kop]

Have you ever been scum, Kop? In a finished game of course.

I haven't been scum over here on this site yet. But over on another site I have been scum a few times and I think I've only finished a game twice if I remember correctly.

What is the vote count at the minute?

[Kop]

Scratch that. Didn't refresh the page in i.e on phone.

[Kop]

KoP -- Why are you avatarless? You had an avatar during the last game we played in, why is it gone now?

What has this got to do with the game?

[Kop]

UNVOTE: wrong song

VOTE: Cheetory6

[Kop]

Cheetory6 has done nothing, his three posts were votes for different users, with very little input.

[Kop]

I don't want to quote it because it's a big blocky post, but I don't like Ot's 103. He's just sniping down every vote on him without really going in to alignment:

Now you have to make the decision if I'm more useless to town than these 3 or not. I'm not going to be brazen but I think I did more than at least one of them. It's too easy to pile up on the guy that is voluntarily dismissive and provocative ... which makes Quilford even townies in my eyes.

I'm not judging on who's more or less useful, I'm trying to find scum. Otalia is totally focused on justifiability (i.e, "This is why your case on me should not apply") and didn't answer the question about alignment.

I want to like Dinare's Otalia vote but this sentence seems really off to me:

Actually, even though I'm rather apprehensive about putting somebody at L-2 a mere 3 days into the game, Quilford has been stonewalling me, but.... I currently don't think he's scum, I think it's just that I don't like his play style....

Cheetory is probably town.

Peacebringer's votes are weird but I see UT is already on it.

Cheetory6 has done nothing, his three posts were votes for different users, with very little input.

Your vote FOR Cheetory was a vote with no input. What is Cheetory not doing you suppose you are? What makes it more likely that Cheetory has a scum role PM than, say, GiF?

Otalia is probably still scum but I want to see what his posts look like as we keep on truckin'.

Unvote, Vote: Kop

The difference is I have only voted for 2 people. And contributed a little bit more than cheetorys 3 posts, 2 of which only contain votes if I remember correctly. But we have seen a lot more from him now and I am happy.

I don't like the fact that we have someone potentially near lynch but refuses to claim, how does that help us make a decision? I mean I'd rather him claim something than potentially lynch a PR.

UNVOTE:

[Kop]

No I wouldn't hammer PB, because I'm not sure of anyone's alignment and while I might dislike or feel "weird vibes" from a player I would feel nervous to get someone close to hammer or claim. What if a town PR is strung up or something? Considering some people haven't posted I'm wary of quick hammers and anything that prevents real content from being produced and also ugh not liking forced claims so early on either. What and why? I've never seen that before in a mafia game at this stage.

My vote on PB wasn't just his anti-RQS - it was his overly long explanation to me and Wrong Song about why he wouldn't participate. Too much protest for not enough meat.

He didn't ask would you hammer him?

[Kop]

If we ban getting people near lynch in the early game, the whole game is essentially just a protracted hug fest until we do, y'know? If PB was L-2 right now, would you have voted him?

Kop, after L2 is hammer yes? I mean math and numbers is not my strong suit but that would be hammer so what are you asking here? Or why?

PB, you spend far more time being all "I don't do RQS" then it would have taken you to actually do RQS. Something Shakesperian line here that I forgot. Oh and I'll look into your scum and town meta at some point but I've found that scum usually are less antagonistic.

Otolia, I still don't follow why you mentioned getting a replace during VLA?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read his post in the sort of if he was on L-2 now would you vote for him and put him at L-1, which isn't a hammer because he'd need another vote. And from reading that post, he is asking would you put him at L-1 not asking you to hammer. Maths isn't my strong suit, but L-2 plus your vote if you would vote for him at that stage would put him one from a lynch.

[Kop]

Dinare actually brings up a good point about his statement "What are you going to do if I flip town ?".

If he is town and facing a lynch, it should be when I flip town, not if I flip town.

That alone isn't sitting right with me.

I want to vote for Oka because I don't like his confidence in his argument, what if.

[Kop]

I am being so subtle right now.

Sorry I must apoligise, I didn't realise me not voting makes me scum.

[Kop]

That's a really stupid argument, Kop

PEDIT: oh lord

What's a stupid argument?

[Kop]

Sorry I must apologize I didn't realize me asking you why you weren't voting three times now is enough for you to acknowledge that I'm asking you a question.
Why aren't you voting someone?
If you want to vote for Oto or Oka or whoever why are you not?

P-Edit: It's to show that he ignored my question three times.

I don't want to put him at L-1 for him to be stupidly hammered.

[Kop]

Sorry, I didn't see that someone unvoted him and put him at L-3.

VOTE: Otolia

[Kop]

Kop.
Talk more about your read on Oto.
Or anyone really.
Let's go with Dinare. What is your read on him and why?

Majority of Dinares posts have been involved in discussion with Oto. I'm not sure whether it's becoming border line tunneling in a sense.

However I don't think he is scum, at the moment.

Oto, the only one thing that is sticking out for me at the moment, is that one post whilst yes it might be weak, but if he is town, it shouldn't be if because that just doesn't sit right with me. It's questionable at best, but to be honest, it's putting doubts into the integrity of his defence, it's almost willingly trying to make out that he isn't actually going to flip town.

@chaosOmega

What made you vote for oto?

[Kop]

Kop:

I was the one who conjured the Otolia wagon into being, and now I'm voting you. How does that make you feel? Who should I vote for?

It makes me all warm and fuzzy.

UNVOTE: Oto

VOTE: ChaosOmega

That's where I would like your vote.

In looking into it more, I think his vote is opportunistic and no real concrete reasoning, jumping on the bandwagon in hope that we push him (oto) off a cliff, and he won't get any heat from it. I just read his vote, and post and I don't get a good vibe from it, personally speaking.

That's where I'm putting my vote, until he convinces me that I should remove it.

[Kop]

Also the speed of Otolio's wagon makes me have that feeling that its not a scum wagon.

Speed of wagon is highly irrelevant.

I can see a point in that, but it can work both ways to be honest. From experience of playing in mafia games, I've seen easy targets been run up fairly quickly by scum hopping on and hoping that others join in, but Dependant on the experience of who is on the scum team could also determine things. I have been on scum team on another site, not here, and tried to dissuade others from jumping on quickly to keep attention off us, when the wagon gets reviewed and why everybody was on it. I am thinking along the lines after the past few pages, Oto isn't a scum wagon, to be honest, regardless of the speed it went, I think it's a case of one or two scum have hopped on in hope that the momentum it went, they saw it could potentially get to the finishing line.

That's the case I'm thinking on ChaosOmega, didn't like in general the way he voted, that's what is telling me it was opportunistic because I feel that he has voted in knowing that the wagon has momentum, one push in hope to get it closer to the line, without real reason to why his vote was there.

[Kop]

What are everybodies thoughts on ChaosOmega? The only post I recall was his vote, I feel that it's scummy in the manner he did it in.

[Kop]

unvote, vote: Kop

OMGUS

This is bad.

[Kop]

^Ding ding ding.
Tired of Kop ignoring me, so here's a good reason to vote for him that I've been noodling around in my head:
Hito expresses that Chaos looks sketchy in a post.
Kop sees that and then votes for Chaos in his next post and then tries to prod hito towards voting him.
To me, it looks like Kop is trying to lead hito onto someone else in a way that looks fake. Like, trying to convince someone to vote someone else is one thing, but to me it strikes me as being a lot more likely that Kop saw that CO could be pushed as scummy and decided to capitalize on it.
The way he responds to CO's vote as purely OMGUS without trying to probe behind the intentions there doesn't seem like it's coming from someone trying to figure out the game and moreso coming from someone trying to posture to push pressure off of himself and onto CO.

I don't like Otolia's exit-readslist given the positioning of certain people on there seeming weird. WrongSong comes to mind.
I also don't like WrongSong's over the top response to UT/Reck.

Kopwagon is best wagon but there's a lot of good leads right now. Better than most D1s.

What other intention was there other than what appears to be a OMGUS vote, because I voted for him. Also not to mention the fact that he has moved his vote from a wagon that had momentum, to another one that is gaining. This tells me 1 of 2 things, it's a clear case of OMGUS because I voted for him, or the other thing, he took his vote off someone who was gaining momentum, for it to fall flat and now with the new wagon forming on myself, he has hopped onto that one, in hope that it gets pushed further to a lynch. So I'll ask the question, ChaosOmega, what are YOUR intentions on why you placed your vote on me? And don't give me the answers of what others have put behind there votes, I want to hear your side of the bargain.

[Kop]

Kop, what's your read on Otolia? How has that read progressed through the game?

As the game is progressing he is starting to look a bit more town.

[Kop]

I'm doubting he is town at the minute, wouldn't scum have gotten him over the egde if he was town?

[Kop]

Well for me he has suspicion on him, I'd say enough to warrant scum to jump on, and then hold up there hands and say well I found him scummy, that's why I voted for him. It wouldn't really cast much suspicion if there is enough reason to vote for him.

[Kop]

So I'll ask the question, ChaosOmega, what are YOUR intentions on why you placed your vote on me? And don't give me the answers of what others have put behind there votes, I want to hear your side of the bargain.

Coming from you, that's rich.

Let's look at your non-RVS votes. Your first one is Cheetory, with this reasoning:

Cheetory6 has done nothing, his three posts were votes for different users, with very little input.

And that's great, top notch. Except here's what Otolia posted earlier that page:

Cheeto

ok.
VOTE: Otolia

Even less posts than me (3). WHY IS EVERYONE SO PRO-ACTIVE ?!

You don't hide that you're following Dinare's reasoning here (and you probably should've, this whole semantic argument was terrible):

Dinare actually brings up a good point about his statement "What are you going to do if I flip town ?".

If he is town and facing a lynch, it should be when I flip town, not if I flip town.

That alone isn't sitting right with me.

I want to vote for Oka because I don't like his confidence in his argument, what if.

And then you shift to me:

In looking into it more, I think his vote is opportunistic and no real concrete reasoning, jumping on the bandwagon in hope that we push him (oto) off a cliff, and he won't get any heat from it. I just read his vote, and post and I don't get a good vibe from it, personally speaking.

Looks like you thought that was a bad post...

vote: Otolia

Otolia, any response to 126? Also, do you have any links to completed games where you've said you won't claim on D1?

This is a bad post.

This is why I'm voting you. You're hopping on unoffensive wagons immediately after other people provide support for them, without any real input from you.

---

do you believe that CO's vote is something other than OMGUS? I get the sense that scum-CO screwed up with his Kop vote, and is being quiet hoping we lynch Kop instead.

What does any of this even mean? If I'm scum, how would I have "screwed up" voting Kop? Do you believe my vote for Kop was OMGUS? If you do, why do you think an OMGUS vote from me there is scummy?

So I think this is what am taking from your defence, I think your saying that I am jumping on people after others have already done it, but what would be the point in the game if others aren't allowed to jump on? What more else can I state on opinions considering you hadn't even posted a great deal? Do I just latch onto thin air and throw that at you because I have no other reasons because your votes look scummy? I mean hell, take a good look at your vote on me, and I mean take a good look, you tell me what can anybody get from that vote, there is fuck all there no reasoning, no nothing, and I am going to call you out here and say you are contradicting yourself big time, because your vote on me, stinks a big deal more than me latching onto other unoffensive wagons, because I've got a wagon on me, and what do you do? Oh sorry you've latched on without any reasons at all, other than jumping on after others have provided support and that is the same shit you've tried to throw to see if it would stick.

[Kop]

I think your saying that I am jumping on people after others have already done it, but what would be the point in the game if others aren't allowed to jump on?

Yeah, if you simplify my point to hell, it's a lot easier to argue. All of your not-RVS votes have been on people without much of a presence in the game, immediately after someone else makes a comment on them being scum, without you providing any further analysis in the slightest. It doesn't look like scumhunting, it looks opportunistic.

I mean hell, take a good look at your vote on me, and I mean take a good look, you tell me what can anybody get from that vote, there is fuck all there no reasoning, no nothing

It wasn't spoon-fed to you, but 358 is my reasoning for the vote, 417 is the extrapolation.

I am going to call you out here and say you are contradicting yourself big time, because your vote on me, stinks a big deal more than me latching onto other unoffensive wagons, because I've got a wagon on me, and what do you do? Oh sorry you've latched on without any reasons at all, other than jumping on after others have provided support and that is the same shit you've tried to throw to see if it would stick.

You're a little biased on the matter, don't you think? And you can keep saying my vote on you is baseless, but it's not true.

I am going to go back and look at your first point, because your wrong. And I'll show you, you are wrong.

Your second point, that reasoning for your vote on me, is that actually a reason?

And I am being biased, no, I am telling you, you are doing the exact thing your accusing me off. It's not baseless, it's call opportunistic, ahh scratch that word out, that's what your accusing me off, so I'll have to use something different, I'll use contradictory.

[Kop]

Vote Count 1.09

Otolia (5) - xRECKONERx, Cheetory6, Untrod Tripod, Dinare, PeaceBringer
PeaceBringer (2) - Wrong Song, elusive
Untrod Tripod (2) - GuyInFreezer, Quilford
Dinare (1) - Otolia
Kop (1) - hitogoroshi
Wrong Song (1) - ChaosOmega

Not Voting (1) - Kop

With 13 alive, it will take 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Thursday, May 7, 2015, at 11:30 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2015-05-07 23:30:00).

Moderator Comments

Equinox is V/LA until April 30.
GuyInFreezer is V/LA until April 30.

vote: Otolia

Otolia, any response to 126? Also, do you have any links to completed games where you've said you won't claim on D1?

Everybody doing the work, Chaos, only engaged towards Oto once before his vote, isn't that the basis that he is trying to accuse me off?

Vote Count 1.14

Otolia (3) - Dinare, PeaceBringer, ChaosOmega
Kop (3) - hitogoroshi, Cheetory6, Wrong Song
Dinare (2) - Otolia, xRECKONERx
PeaceBringer (2) - elusive, Untrod Tripod
Untrod Tripod (2) - GuyInFreezer, Quilford
ChaosOmega (1) - Kop

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it will take 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Thursday, May 7, 2015, at 11:30 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2015-05-07 23:30:00).

Moderator Comments

Equinox is V/LA until April 30.
GuyInFreezer is V/LA until April 30.

unvote, vote: Kop

Now at this point, that's his vote, put on when others had already put focus on myself.

I looked through at the FOS being put on Chaos, and I think with me pushing for Chaos, a few people questioned it at the time, so weren't actually supporting the chaos wagon, up until the votes started piling on him, and now he is throwing shit at me accusing me off jumping on him off others doing the work.

[Kop]

Kop:

I was the one who conjured the Otolia wagon into being, and now I'm voting you. How does that make you feel? Who should I vote for?

It makes me all warm and fuzzy.

UNVOTE: Oto

VOTE: ChaosOmega

That's where I would like your vote.

In looking into it more, I think his vote is opportunistic and no real concrete reasoning, jumping on the bandwagon in hope that we push him (oto) off a cliff, and he won't get any heat from it. I just read his vote, and post and I don't get a good vibe from it, personally speaking.

That's where I'm putting my vote, until he convinces me that I should remove it.

Quilford, that looks intense - hope everything is okay in your town. Also is your avatar the cartoon character who is like Spongebob's equivalent (I feel like I saw a thing recently where there was a Spongebob the nicest cartoon match vs another nicest cartoon that looks like your avatars but I don't watch that show).

Hito, I'm not running anyone up to L1 - you missed some of the conversation there - I would probably reread and figure out the two people I was responding to. In short, people want to run up Otolia to L1 to force him to claim. I'm not a fan of running people up unless I think they are seriously scummy, there are other ways to pressure. Also in regards to claim - sometimes a stupid wagon loses spark and people start unvoting because they talk to the run up player and realize he or she isn't scummy or the wagon was kind of weird to begin with. M

Town would anyway state "Intent to hammer in {time frame}" so the person at L1 shouldn't claim until that point. What if they are a PR and claiming hurts town or causes them to get NKed?

I don't even remember ChaosOmega in this game, I have to look at him in ISO.

Oh and Cheetory is in this game

Proving my point q.q
Talk with me about Kop. What's your read there and why?

In looking into it more, I think his vote is opportunistic and no real concrete reasoning, jumping on the bandwagon in hope that we push him (oto) off a cliff, and he won't get any heat from it.

Why do you think someone whose vote looks opportunistic isn't going to get heat in that case?

Btw I meant to say in regards to Oto that it was less likely to come from scum, not town. A miswording in my typing and my cat just knocked the power out in my room.

If he was prompted to give meta, why is it townish for him to provide meta?
Like, I could get it if he was like "look at these games" without someone asking him to, but that isn't what happened.

I've looked through his ISO, the only sketchy thing I see would be his his lack of use of his vote, which, ehh.... I would need to see more from him before I can go through my thoughts on him.

What do you think about his vote on CO?

xReckoner, you've also been off my radar so what are you currently thinking about the game state?

I'm thinking that hito is getting townbinned for now because I don't even want to start to believe he's scum. Can reevaluate later.

I'm wanting a lot more from UT here, so he's null.

Quil's lack of activity seems null to me, which means I'll keep my standard Quilford townread until further notice.

The Kop/Cheetory thing is super boring and seems to boil down to Cheetory screaming about Kop ignoring his question. I don't think the whole IGNORE MY QUESTION thing is as relevant as people think, but whatever. I remember thinking Kop was slightly scummy earlier for a totally different reason, some little gut twinge off of a post when I was skimming, but it didn't stick with me. Cheetory is town and earnest, from my POV.

I don't even know who ChaosOmega is. Forgot GIF was playing.

Dinare v Otolia has some kind of meat to it but it's hard to chew because of how silly some of their stuff is and I truly cannot get a grasp on what's going on, there, but I think there's probably scum involved.

PeaceBringer is a weird one. I don't like how he basically made up meta/history with me in order to kind of brush off my line of questioning, but I don't know if it's genuine or not. Certainly icky, but there's also something tonally about his posts that make me think 'town' for some reason.

Uhhh who's left? Oh. Wrong Song. So WS has been posting but I have actually skipped every one of his posts because that was just the username I decided I was going to skim and worry about later. I suppose I should actually read it.

Also the speed of Otolio's wagon makes me have that feeling that its not a scum wagon.

Speed of wagon is highly irrelevant.

I can see a point in that, but it can work both ways to be honest. From experience of playing in mafia games, I've seen easy targets been run up fairly quickly by scum hopping on and hoping that others join in, but Dependant on the experience of who is on the scum team could also determine things. I have been on scum team on another site, not here, and tried to dissuade others from jumping on quickly to keep attention off us, when the wagon gets reviewed and why everybody was on it. I am thinking along the lines after the past few pages, Oto isn't a scum wagon, to be honest, regardless of the speed it went, I think it's a case of one or two scum have hopped on in hope that the momentum it went, they saw it could potentially get to the finishing line.

That's the case I'm thinking on ChaosOmega, didn't like in general the way he voted, that's what is telling me it was opportunistic because I feel that he has voted in knowing that the wagon has momentum, one push in hope to get it closer to the line, without real reason to why his vote was there.

What are everybodies thoughts on ChaosOmega? The only post I recall was his vote, I feel that it's scummy in the manner he did it in.

What are everybodies thoughts on ChaosOmega? The only post I recall was his vote, I feel that it's scummy in the manner he did it in.

I didn't even remember Chaos was in this game

so... I guess it didn't strike me at the time?

Chaos barely mentioned before I voted for him, and look through those posts and you tell me, where I conjured on jumping on everybodys work, when people even barely remembered him being in the game, now If I jumped on other peoples work, surely they would remember your name?

[Kop]

My reads up to now, have been mostly overshadowed by a few things but I'll give you what I have seen up to now.

Cheetory, town. I can sense this by the manner of his posts, he is actively asking questions, pressing matters, and in general digging for information, not being cautious about anything in regards to scum hunting.

Dinare, null, leaning town. From what I've seen.

Chaosomega, heavily leaning scum. You can see my argument against him in the past page or two.

Otolia/Stabulous, I don't think he is scum to be honest. From what I've seen.

Hitogorshi, town, same reasons as cheetory.

Others I haven't really looked at in depth, as I've been focussed on a few people and only glanced at others, guyinfreezer has voted for me, and I didn't even know he was in the game.

[Kop]

CO came off better? And he thinks that too, after I showed him inconsistencies in his argument, I think someone is having a laugh. If CO turns out to be scum end game, I'll be laughing even more, if he is town, well I'll hold my hands up and say that I am wrong, but I certainly am not leaning towards the latter, I'm afraid. My vote is staying where it is, he is a main suspect, after our little bout, and I am not going to switch my vote from someone I suspect to someone else because such and such told me too.

[Kop]

At the end of the day, if you believe someone to be scum, that's where I am going to keep my vote. I am not going to be influenced from who could be scum playing a good town game, however I do believe that little bout with CO, there was inconsistencies to what CO tried to counter and he tried to bring up points to make me look bad,and that I showed him to be wrong. Apart from the one which I had the same feeling that someone else pointed out and I had to quote it. Then there was my reasoning on my vote on him, that was not influenced by anybody else, and that's what he believed to be the case that I jumped onto everybody elses opinions of him, and I showed posts to prove that point.

[Kop]

I'm not scum so that's a wasted vote. What's disgusting is that Guy hasn't replaced out and has contributed nothing with Quil only being close behind in lack of content. Hito also doesn't put his vote quite where his mouth is, if he thought it was scummy I assume he would. Also guess what I'm never an easy lynch and as town I do scorched earth so if you're trying to set me up be ready for the heat.

AtE, next.

chaos, your vote to save your skin after putting me as town is good though, helps back up the scummy vibe you were giving. If you flip scum then that helps figure otolio out yes?

Can you explain why your vote isn't on kop or PB one of whom you were strongly scum reading? Omgus hard, much?

If I wanted to vote to save my skin, why wouldn't I vote Kop?

If I'm scum so much, then why not drop your weak-ass push on a lurker and vote me?

If chaos is scum does that implicate otolio or my thoughts on this later.

Or you could take a stand one way or the other before a flip.

You did, then when things started to veer to somebody else, you voted for them.

[Kop]

I believe I've already put them in the thread.

[Kop]

Sorry I have been super busy work getting piled on me like there is no tomorrow.

I won't be on much either today as my work vehicle has decided to break down on me and I will be using my time today to fix it otherwise I won't be making any money.

I will finish this sentence with that I am town and will flip town. From the glances that I have seen over the past few days is making me think about my reads about hito and Cheetory. I can't put my finger on it but somethings telling me they are playing in a manner to look pro town. Preying on an easy target in myself to buy cred.

VOTE: hitogoroshi