Mini 1670 - WTF MAFIA

[Derangement]

Greetings and salutations!

I'm a little surprised to see there's a "third party" who can win with scum, and not with town, but I suppose that's why the mod's calling them third party

scum

.
For the sake of clarity, if you see me call someone scum, that'll mean I think they're

Mafia

, or

3rd party scum

.
I don't particularly care which: If you cannot win with town, I want you dead.

@McMenno:

You say you win if you survive, or if the faction that kills you loses (something you claim you'll help with, too).
Would it be all right if I asked what you plan to do during the game, assuming a majority agrees that you should be left alive?

@Flubbernugget:

You mean the game

isn't

a bastard one?

VOTE: Flubbernugget for not voting in RVS.

[Derangement]

@Flubbernugget:

You mean the game

isn't

a bastard one?

VOTE: Flubbernugget for not voting in RVS.

Ika posted in the queue that the game isn't bastard. He specified that there are no role changing mechanics.

I still think tree-stumping is a little bastard, but it might just be non-normal. What is/isn't bastard might be a way to catch and/or restrict fakeclaims, but at the same time the game can't turn into an argument about what is/isn't bastard. There has to be balance.

That being said I think stopping and analyzing a player's claim is a little more productive than an rvs vote

Huh.
After McMenno's claim, my brain completely forgot ika told us that.
That is actually pretty reassuring to hear.

And yeah, I agree with the last bit.
Nothing's stopping us from doing

both

things, though.

I'm having a hard time deciding whether or not I believe McMenno.
We know there's four scum. Even assuming all other players can win with town, we have, at best:

• If McMenno survives, he wins.
  
• If town kills him day one, he's a permanent pro-scum vote, which makes day two a 5vs7 MyLo, and an almost guaranteed win for scum and McMenno.
  
• If town kills him after day one, it's either MyLo, or an instant loss if there was a mislynch already.
  
• If scum kills him, then he
  might
  not win, but now that he's claimed, they probably won't.

I know ika said there wouldn't be a lot of balance, but it sounds

really

odd that a thirteen-person game could be over by night two.
Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but why did you decide to scumhunt, rather than look purposefully scummy, or just afk and cruise-control your way to victory, McMenno?

Oh, right. And then there's the elephant in the room.
What happens if

third party

kills you, McMenno?

[Derangement]

The change in wincon doesn't bother me, because the player in question knows in advance this might happen, and his new wincon does not go against the old one.

The dead vote could have been... extremely problematic, if he hadn't claimed this early.

On a slightly different topic...

Btw I'm hated

Are you scum?

[Derangement]

McMenno's claim: well I went wtf, and since this game is called wtf and we're all supposed to get wtf-roles, I'm inclined to believe it.

When I first looked at my role, I went wtf too.
After some clarification with the mod, it turned out I had misinterpreted something, and it's on par with the power level of what you'd find in a regular game. Pity

everyones role (minus the 3rd party scum) have equal chance of being scum i randomed who would be getting scum roles are not alignment indicative

Oh god. Now I

really

hope Bins got scum randomly assigned to her, or I'm missing something huge about the rest of her role.

[Derangement]

McMenno's claim sounds like the most broken role to ever exist so I highly doubt it's legit, but if it is, shouldn't lynching him be top priority? We don't lose any players and get an alignment flip.

We are playing a game of, best case scenario, 4 scum vs 9 (town + third party).

Those nine players are our lifeline.
Unless shenanigans occur, two mislynches places us in LyLo, even if it's third-party that gets mislynched.

While I'm not sure I believe McMenno's claim, it's an almost guaranteed loss if he's telling the truth and town hammers.
If he's lying, then I'd like to see more from him, to figure out if it's scum trying to be clever, or something else entirely.

[Derangement]

VOTE: mcmenno

His role only makes sense if it was thought up with an alignment in mind

You might be onto something there.
And we know there's a third-party scum, who is the one person whose alignment was randomly picked.

VOTE: McMenno
Now I

really

want to know what happens if third-party hammers you.

[Derangement]

EBWOP:

And we know there's a third-party scum, who is the one person whose alignment

wasn't

randomly picked.

[Derangement]

Oh god. Now I really hope Bins got scum randomly assigned to her, or I'm missing something huge about the rest of her role.

?

A weak non-scum player means we're probably screwed.

[Derangement]

youre judging the strength of my role based on a claimable modifier?

huh.

I've got an extremely incomplete picture, so I'm hoping beyond hope that the part I don't know about is enough to turn the tide, or you're scum.
Definitely feeling WTF, though.

[Derangement]

And, to clarify, I have no reason to think you are.
I just hope the random numbers made you so.

[Derangement]

i don't really fear the fact that i'm hated. nor do i mind. i don't see why you should.

To put it simply, the small number of town players gives me pause.
But if you're comfortable with it, then I'm willing to be comfortable-by-proxy, and not ask any more questions.

[Derangement]

Yeah, if you are offering.

Wondering about lynching McMenno just to get his weird role out of the way.

The problem is that, if it's weird and

true

, we might be in for a world of hurt.
Hence why I'd like to hear his answers first.

[Derangement]

With McMenno, the 'who kills me loses' thing is the bit I'm having problems with: surely this only applies to night actions?

If I'm lynched, that faction will be that of the hammerer...

He claims otherwise.

[Derangement]

If he's town, scum aren't going to night kill him and leave him as a stump who can vote. If he's scum, obviously scum aren't going to night kill him. Him making that claim ensured that his win condition is anti-town. He will never die in such a way that results in him having a pro-town vote afterwards (if his claim is true), and there's no way in hell he can be trusted in LYLO. He wins by surviving so if it goes to LYLO, scum will just vote and he'll follow and he doesn't give a shit which team wins so long as he wins.

He's a policy lynch as a survivor, and he knows it. The only real question is whether or not he actually has some kind of post death treestump voting ability. To me, that would fall into bastard territory but I'm not sure about the site guidelines and whether it would just be "non normal" or if it would be considered a bastard role. I'm tempted to just call bullshit on it and encourage that we kill the survivor as a matter of policy. If his claim is honest, he's even more of a threat than survivor's normally are.

The thing is, if his claim is legit, then while he's alive, he's an unknown.
He might help or hinder town, depending on which faction's the closest to winning.

But if he dies, then he's

guaranteed

to be a problem for the faction dropping the hammer.

I am in no rush to risk the latter scenario, if I can help it.

[Derangement]

Okay, so.

By clever application of stalking, we know my post #27 was at

19:02:31

;
McMenno's last post on site was at

21:12:25

.

He is neither scum-hunting nor answering our questions.
So I'm inclined to suggest we start piling votes on him, if this doesn't change.

In the off chance that McMenno's claim isn't fake, we find a third-party who's willing to drop the hammer, assuming McMenno's victory condition only changes if there's an actual

faction

involved.
If someone helps us with this, and McMenno turns out to really have been telling the truth, then that person's contribution will have helped

immensely

, making them pretty much unlynchable.

I'd offer to do so myself, but unfortunately I am town.
Any thoughts, comments, suggestions on how to improve on this idea, or flaws I might have missed are very welcome.

[Derangement]

you should take that as confirmation that I plan to hammer the shit out of McMenno. I'm looking forward to it. In fact, I'm going to just go ahead and give

intent to hammer

right now. Whomever puts him at L-1 ... know that I'm gonna hammer the second I notice.

Whoa. Thank you!

Didn't expect we'd find a third-party that was pro-town enough to volunteer this quickly.

[Derangement]

you should take that as confirmation that I plan to hammer the shit out of McMenno. I'm looking forward to it. In fact, I'm going to just go ahead and give

intent to hammer

right now. Whomever puts him at L-1 ... know that I'm gonna hammer the second I notice.

Whoa. Thank you!

Didn't expect we'd find a third-party that was pro-town enough to volunteer this quickly.

I don't think I'm ever going to understand what each of your posts mean.

That post means I think Drixx is a third-party player, who volunteered to help town by offering to hammer McMenno.

This way, even

if

McMenno's claim is legit, he'll still have been hammered by someone who does not belong to a faction, so his post-death wincon won't cause us trouble.

[Derangement]

Then you apparently missed the point. I think is claim is absolute bullshit, ergo I have zero fear of hammering him. If you want a third party to hammer him, then you need to look elsewhere.

Ugh. Glad that was brought up, then.

I am

not

okay with town hammering McMenno, at least until we know more about what we're dealing with.
Any non-town volunteers who'd like to accept our eternal love and worship?

[Derangement]

Please explain to me what possible upside there is to letting him live? Let's look at the possibilities, shall we?

<snip>

2.) He's a survivor and he really does have the bastard alignment change and the treestump voter thing. In this case he's even more of a problem for us and there's still no reason to consider him anything but a policy lynch.

<snip>

Is there any case where this guy doesn't need to be lynched?

This does not follow.

If he

is

a survivor with on-death alignment change, and dead-voting to boot, then town killing him

ensures

he will become our enemy.
Keeping him alive leaves him the option of aiding us if we correctly lynch scum and look like we're more likely to win.

I still think the ideal solution is for non-town to lynch him in this case, of course.

[Derangement]

In the end, the logical analysis suggests that he is the same level of problem for us no matter what, except if we leave him alive into LYLO in which case he's more of a problem since we'd rather have a townie in that spot.

Assuming McMenno's a non-scum survivor, and will choose to side with scum the entire game (which is not a given), then the current 5v8 is dreadfully close to a 5v6 LyLo, yes. We can afford to mislynch only once.

But town lynching him does

not

make things better if he has deathvoting powers.
Day two would be 5v7, which is already MyLo. We can

still

only afford to mislynch once.

A town player killing McMenno is only slightly beneficial if we intend to no-lynch, or no one dies at night.

Keeping him alive at least for one day gives him the chance to prove whether he's willing to

help

town;
Finding a third-party to kill him for us, on the other hand, proves that third-party is interested in winning with town (meaning we won't ever lynch them), and gets rid of the survivor-jester problem.

Does this make sense, or is your certainty of a fakeclaim so big that you'd risk the game on it by dropping the hammer yourself?

[Derangement]

To me, it looks a lot like Derangement is the one pushing to keep McMenno alive.

Pretty much, yeah.
I'll settle with postponing McMenno's lynch for later, if after everyone posts no non-town players have stepped up to declare their desire to hammer him.

It may sound like a claim that's too lopsided to be true, but then so does Bins being hated, for exactly the same reason.
(Heck, if they're both true, we might

already

in MyLo Maybe all scum are lovers to compensate?)

[Derangement]

Yup, go ahead and lynch me. And another third party will be

sure

to claim after he saw what happened to the first one that did...

Hi!
Good morning!

There are questions waiting for you.

[Derangement]

Menno's claim is distracting from scumhunting. Scum are capitalising on this.

VOTE: Derangement

Does that mean you believe his claim?

[Derangement]

Does that mean you believe his claim?

Sure, at least partially.

Also you're employing the exact thing I just accused you of, so I'm happy with sitting on my vote for now.

That's perfectly fine.
I understand the need to scumhunt elsewhere, but I'm afraid I'm going to need some sleep before I'm capable of doing that properly.

In the meantime, I'll be a little obnoxious, and remind McMenno that he is doing the opposite of what he said he would.
If he wishes to contribute to town, but doesn't have the energy to actually scumhunt, he can ease in by replying to the questions already directed at him, or acknowledging he will not be doing so:

Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but why did you decide to scumhunt, rather than look purposefully scummy, or just afk and cruise-control your way to victory, McMenno?

Oh, right. And then there's the elephant in the room.
What happens if

third party

kills you, McMenno?

Or ask more details like how does his vote work, how many times (or what limits) there are on his vote, and stuff like that. Also, McMenno why did you choose to just spill your guts in the first post of the game instead of waiting till you were in any danger?

Thank you for your consideration, and see you all in a few hours!

[Derangement]

It may sound like a claim that's too lopsided to be true, but then so does Bins being hated, for exactly the same reason.
(Heck, if they're both true, we might

already

in MyLo Maybe all scum are lovers to compensate?)

Wait, nvm.


Derangement, we're going to need to have another talk about what you mean by this.

This is me basically laughing at the outright absurdness of the game's composition, given the information I have so far.
There's four scum, so right now we are playing, best case scenario, 4v9.

If we believe McMenno, then he has no reason to not side with scum if he believes things are going in their favour.
That'd put us at 5v8.

If you are hated and not scum, then for all intents and purposes, that bumps the numbers up to 6v8.
If we mislynch, and someone other than you dies at night, day two will be 6v6.

Game over.

So I tried to guess how there might be a balancing factor to compensate for the fact that a single mislynch ends the game.
The first thing that popped to mind was that scum are all lovers, so a single

correct

lynch would end the game too.

Sadly, this is probably wishful thinking on my part, given how the mod said our roles are not alignment indicative, and things really can be that unbalanced in scum's favour.

So, I'm trying hard not to despair here, because I do not think it is feasible for town to lynch correctly four times in a row.
I'm inclined to park my vote on McMenno, on the principle that, if he's lying, he needs to burn ASAP.
If he's not, then we are

soooo

screwed, that it won't have made too much of a difference.

[Derangement]

How does me being hated change the numbers at all?!

Doesn't hated mean it takes one less vote to lynch you?

You can turn that around, and interpret it like "as long as you're alive, there is one permanent extra vote on you".
If you're not scum, then this ghost-voter is helping scum's win condition, bringing them one step closer to LyLo/MyLo.

[Derangement]

Yes, but an extra vote on me is useless unless there's other votes on me.


Which I'm not going to let happen. I'll ask Ika if the Hated modifier even works in LYLO. It doesn't specify in my role PM.

The problem here, as pointed out in the wiki, is that if scum are aware of your hated status, they can endgame us one day sooner, which in this case is

waaay

too soon.

If you have ways to prevent your own lynch at the hands of a five-scum massclaim, then I'll tone down my despair-o-meter.
If not, then I'll play under the assumption that McMenno

needs

to be lying for town to stand a chance of winning, and vote accordingly.

[Derangement]

I'll get more worried in LYLO.

Ugh, the more right you get the more I regret claiming.

That's the problem.

If McMenno didn't lie, we

are

in MyLo.
Right now.

[Derangement]

On a slight tangent:

In my second (newbie) game here, a certain player outright scum-claimed.
What would you say the correct thing to do is, for town, in that kind of scenario?

[Derangement]

1. Because I thought people would believe my claim? It's WTF Mafia, after all.

This makes it sound like you made your role up, and hope people will believe it because we're in WTF mafia.

2. Third Party is a faction. I've just asked the mod what would happen if I self-hammer.

Please keep us posted with the mod response for exactly what happens if Third Party kills you, or you self-hammer.
Thanks!

[Derangement]

Also, Derangment; your lylo/mylo theory feels off to me because we know there is a scumfaction, we know there is town, we know there is 3rd party scum, apparently mcmenno is another 3rd party, with all theses parties I think lylo/mylo might not be as soon as you fear.

I hope you're right, because mod posts make me think the third-party scum wins

with

scum, and not against them as a SK usually might.

Mafia

: eliminate all players who can not win with you

3rd party scum

: live long enough to see town lose

@Moderator: Could you please clarify if a scenario with three mafia , one third party scum, and four town players still alive is game-over (3+1 vs 4) or not (3 vs 1 vs 4)?

Thank you.

[Derangement]

The only way to really be certain about the lylo/mylo situation is to massclaim, which is a terrible idea because then we know the protectives and we're really fucked

So I don't think it's worth speculating on

What if the only thing we claim is faction (town, third-party, scum)?

[Derangement]

I only have one vote. Does it matter which Menno pusher I vote?

I know the question's not meant for me, but if you don't have a personal preference, then voting for the one who already has more votes on them is usually a good way to force them to react.

[Derangement]

If I self-hammer I auto-lose. :'(

This is understandable.
And if a

different

third-party (non-town, non-scum) hammers you?

[Derangement]

Derangement seems worse because they're prolonging the topic, doomsaying to breed apathy, and generally seem ingenuine.

My intent is not to breed apathy: quite the contrary.
I want to nuke McMenno from orbit, and would like to find out what the best way to do it is, and do that as soon as possible.

You're not the first person to reads me as ingenuine, so I'm afraid I can't help with that part.

If a 3rd party kills Menno then his goal would be to kill that player. That should be obvious shouldn't it?

I thought so too, but he's calling third-party a faction in and of itself, which strikes me as more lies to make things harder to understand (or just to save his bacon).

[Derangement]

I thought so too, but he's calling third-party a faction in and of itself, which strikes me as more lies to make things harder to understand (or just to save his bacon).

Is it not?

I never thought it was, and apparently I'm not alone in this.

@Moderator: Could you please clarify if a scenario with three mafia , one third party scum, and four town players still alive is game-over (3+1 vs 4) or not (3 vs 1 vs 4)?

In your said scenario the game would go on.

Many things can happen that can reasult in town being back in the game

This is rather reassuring, actually.
Thanks!

[Derangement]

Okay, this is interesting.
Scum who could fakevote other scum, or put people at L-1 without others knowing who did it?

Insidious.
Also, good riddance.

Why do we want to get find a vig that just helped us immensely, without knowing how their vig-power works?