Mini Normal 1692 – A Crack In Time? – Game Over

[Zoronos]

VOTE: Klingoncelt Klingons and people that wear plaid are not to be trusted.

[Zoronos]

VOTE: BlueMoonRising

You seem pretty angry at someone that just made an RVS vote and a joke.

[Zoronos]

The OMGUS thing was an obvious RVS-joke. That you're taking it seriously suggests an agenda. Whether that's meta-hate for Boon or just being scum, I can't tell. I am totally okay with my vote on Blue for it though.

[Zoronos]

Would you care to vote one of those scummy posters?

[Zoronos]

Would you care to vote one of those scummy posters?

One of them, or someone else.

I want to slow things down just a tiny bit. Deadline's a long way off, so we have time to make more measured judgements. I want to make sure we lynch Scum, not low-hanging fruit.

More votes going out is arguably an ideal way to gain information, and not voting on principle is an easy way for scum to conceal their lack of reads. I'm inclined to agree that if you find someone scummy, you should vote them.

He's pinging the loudest -

VOTE: BlueMoonRising

Why?

[Zoronos]

That's not really alignment indicating Woody. I did pressure her to vote. The reasonable thing to do, when there's no cost to doing it there, is to vote, regardless of alignment.

[Zoronos]

Boon's reads are directly related to who's suspecting him. How is that at all a town mindset?

Talk to me about non-Boon players. Who else strikes you as scummy and why?

[Zoronos]

Sorry, I've been super tuned out of this game because of all the 'omg he's scum because he posted once!' and "I caught you in a lie!1!" stuff.

I pressured her to vote. She said she didn't like to, but voted anyway. No lie there, it was a costless response to pressure. Can we dial down the rhetoric a tad please.
VOTE: Elusive. Active lurking (See: 212. Closest thing to a content post, and there's no actual content in it)

[Zoronos]

Sorry, I've been super tuned out of this game because of all the 'omg he's scum because he posted once!' and "I caught you in a lie!1!" stuff.

I pressured her to vote. She said she didn't like to, but voted anyway. No lie there, it was a costless response to pressure. Can we dial down the rhetoric a tad please.
VOTE: Elusive. Active lurking (See: 212. Closest thing to a content post, and there's no actual content in it)

So basically, you admit to active lurking, then turn around a vote someone for active lurking.

If you're sick of the current pace of play, best way to fix that is to contribute. Unless you're scum.

I am not active lurking. I'm straight up lurking. (The difference between the two is content production. My posts contain opinions and scum hunting, Elusive's don't. He's posting to remind us he's here without bothering to hunt scum.)

I just don't have the patience to deal with the yelling. Pace of play doesn't bother me.

[Zoronos]

I am changing the subject. That's why we're talking about why Elusive is a good lynch and your argument about Klingon lying is dumb.

[Zoronos]

I already said things about Boonskies and BlueMoonRising. Keep up. (Diego's 246 is a really good summary / directional post about those two)

We're 11 pages in and you have no opinions other than 'the guy voting me is scum?'

[Zoronos]

As it stands, it is actually important that I won that argument, because I believe that as you contested the core legitimacy of my low-hanging fruit accusation, it held some form of relevance that you do not want brought to the table. I am currently attributing that to your alignment, which I theorise is scum.

Can you expand on this thought please?
What specifically makes it a scummy stance vs just 'wrong'?

[Zoronos]

UNVOTE: Elusive

It's anti-town behavior but it's not necessarily pro-scum behavior. Charisma is almost always a factor in avoiding lynches as scum, and raging out mid thread is likely to attract votes, not repel them. I feel a little bad that poking the active-lurking player turned into a rage fest though.

We'll get a replacement and can reevaluate with whomever replaces her.

[Zoronos]

Bluemoon, you started the wagon on elusive, but have barely posted since starting it. Why didn't you participate? And how are you reading that slot now?

I started the wagon. (Assuming you meant to address the wagon-starter rather than specifically Blue, my thoughts are slightly above here, in my unvote post. The short version is I'm not convinced of either alignment yet and want to see what the replacement does. But she certainly isn't active-lurking anymore, which was my original case)

[Zoronos]

Blue, still. He jumped right onto the train as soon as I started it, with a vague hand wave at it being easy for lurkers to pick at more active posters. Which is pretty inconsistent with events, considering I was pretty lurky up until then, so it was more like lurker on lurker violence than 'lurker attacks prolific poster'.

My gut wants to vote for Woody, but I think that's just distaste for playstyle so I've been trying to tell it to shut up and have resisted the urge to get into arguments with him.

OhGodMyLife's contributions strike me as 'posting with appearance of contribution' more than actual contribution. Specifically, his argument with Klingon looked more like an argument for the sake of having a disagreement than an argument for the purpose of refining a read.

Ricastle and Diego both seem pretty towny. I'm not sure I agree with everything they're saying, but they're coming at the game from a towny PoV, imo.

[Zoronos]

VOTE: BlueMoonRising
Going back to this. It's a better vote.

Woody, dude, you're being annoying as hell. You need to take a chill pill.

[Zoronos]

You're right, I hate scum hunting! Definitely not just arguments that suck all the oxygen out of the thread and let scum coast!

[Zoronos]

556 struck me as a really scummy post, and I have no idea why.

[Zoronos]

I really can't figure out what's happening between Jogger and BlueMoon. They had a short argument about the math BlueMoon provided, but that's it.
Bluemoon had reasons to vote elusive, but does not seem to want to pressure Jogger, even after Jogger voted him.
Am I reading too much into this?

I think you're reading too much into this.

[Zoronos]

I don't find the case for 'Ricastle has been causing pointless arguments' compelling. There's nothing scummy about trying to derail wagons on his town reads, as long as his reasoning for his town reads makes sense. If we're trying to remove pointless arguing / turn down thread volume, I'd say Woody is the better candidate for it, but that's not really a great way to catch scum, imo.

[Zoronos]

I agree that meta is manipulatable and unreliable. I know I avoid using it. However, I know people that as town love to try using it, and frequently use it poorly. However, they still do it as town. That means the raw act of using meta (poorly or otherwise) is not alignment indicating, as Ricastle is doing here. It's just not a good case.
I think we'd be better off of we all ignored meta entirely, but just my 2 cents.

The point about defense vs offense is solid, so let's run down that avenue.

Ricastle - Who's your top scum read, ignoring, meta, and why?

[Zoronos]

Oh gods how did that many commas sneak into that sentence. I am the worst.

"Ricastle - Who's your top scum read and why, ignoring meta?"
There. Pretend I wrote that. Ignore the comma laden abomination above.

[Zoronos]

I'm still basing my vote mostly on 'Ricastle announced a baseless townread and couldn't adequately defend it'

I remember that post. It was pretty silly. I had a slight townread on Boon at that point, so yelling at Ricastle for having a similar slight townread is pretty weak. I mean, a better post would have been 'explain your meta read' rather than 'you're scum for having a meta read'.

Actually, looking back, pointysbagels me-two's onto that exact reasoning in the next post. HMMMMM.....

[Zoronos]

Amusingly, you can actually infer my slight townread on Boon from that linked post.
I didn't address it because it didn't strike me as scummy, just as silly.

[Zoronos]

I look for crumbs as town. I did not think 'Gladiator' there though.
I have no useful input. Here, have a useless post instead.

[Zoronos]

Actually, I changed my mind, I have some useful input. I don't think we should lynch Diego.
For scum on Diego's train, Pointy would be my best guess currently.

[Zoronos]

Huh... I thought Pointy was on the Diego train. That's really odd.

[Zoronos]

Pointy - What is your read on Diego, and why?

[Zoronos]

I am actively not enthused about voting Diego. I am 'eh' on Klingon. I don't really have a solid read either way on her. Her play has been highly defensive, but she's been under pressure almost from moment 1, so I don't find that very surprising or alignment indicating.
Blue's basically dropped out of the thread after his squabble with Boon other than to note that he doesn't think we should lynch Diego.
I think that's a pretty okay vote.

[Zoronos]

Hmmm... I wonder if Boon and Klingon are a scum team. It's almost as if they have some manner if communication outside the thread. Some magical way of communicating.

[Zoronos]

*facepalm*

[Zoronos]

I assumed he was being serious about the Mason claim and joking about the retraction.
Now I'm not sure if I should be facepalming at everyone else, or facepalming at him. What I am relatively confident of is that I should be facepalming at somebody.

Boon - Mind coming back and clearing things up?

[Zoronos]

This discussion is really dumb. Nobody cares about OMGUS meta. Go find scum. This is chatter for the point of chatter; argument for the sake of argument.

[Zoronos]

Mm...no. You'll learn how i work eventually.

You are very frustrating.

[Zoronos]

Oh, you clearly misinterpreted my post. I was calling your discussion scummy. It's make-work.

[Zoronos]

Technically I was mudslinging both of you!

[Zoronos]

VOTE: PointYBagelS
This is a pretty okay vote too.

[Zoronos]

VOTE: PointYBagelS
This is a pretty okay vote too.

Are you fucking joking? Vote one of the top wagons.

I don't think either of the top wagons is scum at the moment. Why would I vote someone I don't think is scum?

[Zoronos]

I'll vote Klingon to prevent a no lynch, but the odds of her being scum are low, in my opinion. It's a vote I am not at all enthused about.

[Zoronos]

I'm not feeling Bagels at all, either.

Slandy, would you do Zakk?

Why are you not feeling bagels?

[Zoronos]

We have 23 hours. It was in the last VC.
Talk to me about Boon. I don't really have a solid read on him, and I have to admit the Masons thing threw me off a bunch.

[Zoronos]

Slow down a second and explain Boon for me. My initial read on that slot was he seemed not very self concious, and was making some effort to scum hunt. Then he got really quite, and I haven't updated the read since his fight with Blue. After that set, I felt Blue was the scummier of the pair.

So, talk me through the Boon read? I don't have a hard sort here, but I'm not seeing the clear cut case.
I still don't really want to vote Klingon.

[Zoronos]

Oh, Woody unvoted just before Boon voted. Right.

Anyone up for a OGML wagon?

I would not be averse. It's not my first choice, but nobody seems to like my Bagels train.
I don't really find RC's case on Boon convincing - I dislike pure meta arguments. There's no straightforward way to refute them. I lean town on RC's slot though, so I don't think he's being dishonest with the case. Just a weak case.

[Zoronos]

People have been defending elusive (your top scum read at one point) solely off meta and you have said nothing about it. You unvoted when she replaced out and you have not mention

You're right, I do dislike meta defenses! Did I not talk about this? I could have sworn I talked about this.
People using meta (poorly or otherwise) isn't alignment indicating, imo. I don't agree with their reasoning for the clear, but I understand why they might be making it, and I don't think that thought process is nefarious. I just don't put stock in it.

I don't have a good read on Naked, and I was super turned off from trying to sort him because of your high volume shout-off with him. I started the Elusive wagon, but her rage-fest response seemed to not be pro-scum play (since it invites further voting and further direct attention, as is obvious from how quickly the train ran up). I am loathe to call such bad behavior town, so I've just left the slot at null and been apathetic since then.

[Zoronos]

Hider is also called weak-Cop. It's not negative utility.

[Zoronos]

I'm having a tad of trouble parsing this interaction.
Woody - Are you currently scumreading Zakk?
Do you feel Zakk is attempting to appease his accuser with his current behavior?

[Zoronos]

Ugh, so, both my townreads are on the Boon train, and I'm not enthused about the meta case.
RC - You cleared PointyBagels, and I'm still thinking he's scum. Any chance you can talk to me about why you think that? His posts have felt very state-of-the-game-y and soft-pushing instead of hard pushing and consensus building.

[Zoronos]

VOTE: Boonskiies. Fine. I'm not going to sit out to a no-lynch.

Why would Boonskiies being alive on D1 mean Pointy is clear? What about the Elusive thing? I'm not following.

[Zoronos]

Elusive I'm really not liking your reaction to this wagon. You have barely posted and haven't even tried to scumhunt. This is a valid wagon and you're completely ignoring it. Do something town please.


Elusive I'm really not liking your reaction to this wagon. You have barely posted and haven't even tried to scumhunt. This is a valid wagon and you're completely ignoring it. Do something town please.

This was Bagel's response to the Elusive train. I think this is a pretty scummy response. He's looking for justification rather than looking for a sort, imo. Heck, I'd see scum communicating during a bus vote over legit town communication. The 'Do something town please' plea at the end feels very insincere to me.

[Zoronos]

I never said that Pointy was clear, yeesh.

I just said I didn't support the wagon.

And yeah, Pointy could easily be scum, but his most likely scumpartner would be... Boonskiies, the one he's chainsawing.

Oh. I guess I misunderstood.
Welp.

[Zoronos]

Choo choo

Unvote, Vote: Pointy

Then when he flips scum we can lynch Zoronos tomorrow

Choo chooUnvote, Vote: PointyThen when he flips scum we can lynch Zoronos tomorrow

You make zero sense. If the guy I have been arguing is scum flips scum... what?

[Zoronos]

UNVOTE: Boonskiies
More specific please? We have a claimed Hider, aka weak cop. In what way, if any, does your role support or contradict that?

[Zoronos]

I just unvoted you, you're out of hammer range. Calm, and give me a hand parsing this out. An every night weak cop and a rotating-JOAT are a bit contradictory. Help me through this one.

[Zoronos]

Boon, please disclose the other two abilities.

[Zoronos]

Eh, fuck it, I didn't really want to play this game anyway. Sorry RC!

I'm the Odd Night Doctor. I've been mentally grappling with the idea of an every night weak cop along with an odd night doctor. A rotating night JOAT comports a lot better with what I have than an every night investigation role that can die. Also, it means that potentially Klingon could full cop someone N1 if she announced her target and I protected that person. I was trying to see if Boon would put down something I could hard counterclaim.

[Zoronos]

Hider + Doc is dodgy. It interacts really, really, badly.

Welcome to the setup speculation I've been trying to deal with all day.
Theoretically if Klingon hid behind A, and I Protected A, either Klingon dies solo and A is conf scum, or lives and A is conf town. A cant be shot through the protection, so there is no scum just shooting the target.

Also a night restricted doc is really odd alongside an every night hider. Anyway.

[Zoronos]

VOTE: klingon

Pages behind trying to catch up on my iPad .
Boon, what are your other two abilities?

[Zoronos]

Don't have a lot of time, so quick post:
I protected Ricastle. He was one of my town reads and had claimed Vig. I assumed he was going to be shooting Klingon.
Nothing about that claim stood out as a joke to me.

[Zoronos]

Ricastle -
Who is the scum, and why are those people scum?

Feel free to commit confScum Klingon.

[Zoronos]

Ugh. omit. Not commit. Stupid iPad.

[Zoronos]

The only way you can scum read me is if you also believe that Pointy is lying. Is Pointy lying?

Also, 841 is a post from you, not from OGML. Care to correct the link?

[Zoronos]

Just finished re-reading Klingon's D1 - (Conclusions subject to change if by some insane happenstance Klingon doesn't flip scum after claiming a role that can't be in the game and is setup-speculated out by two other roles):

Ricastle is probably not scum. He was super early on the D1 Klingon train. Their D1 interactions don't look like scum <-> scum interactions.
Woody is probably clear based on Klingon's casing as well. So is Pointy.

I also agree with Ric's OGML read. When Klingon was at her highest level of pressure, he was trying to turn the lynch onto me. Likely scumbuddies. She also largely ignores him; she never talks to him directly after page 2, only mentions are in the quotes from other players. Looks like RVS distancing to me.

[Zoronos]

For.the record I said.omg was scum before ric did. Just want.that acknowledge if he.flips scum

*eyeroll*
Yes, if OGML ends up flipping scum you may have +5 ego points.

Other folks should re-read Klingon's D1 before she was caught and check my work.

[Zoronos]

I kind of want to leave Ric and RC alive just so the scum get mad that we're not lynching people who fake claimed shit.
But RC did straight up thread murder the cop. Oh well a puzzle for another day.

[Zoronos]

Honestly the point most in favor of Ricastle-Scum is he immediately jumped to pushing narrative based on the NK.
Alternatively he is just bad-town that really likes to NK speculate.

So, pointy, level with me here. You the scum tracker and just tracked me to create a cool vig fakeclaim? Because that would be a boss fake claim.

[Zoronos]

*sigh* I hate explaining my witty turns of phrase.
Rather than a slow and organic process of discussion and consensus building, RC forced through a lynch based on force of personality and repetition of read. He went to the length of fake claiming in the face of a competing set of Doctor / Cop claims.

[Zoronos]

3... 2... 1... lift off!

Unvote, Vote: zakk

Same coalition applies but it got even more doable with the addition of RC

If OGML flips scum, then Zakk is also likely clear. Here's another place OGML works to relieve pressure on Klingon.
If you go back to that post, and scroll a couple posts up, you'll see Zakk and Boon arguing about whether or not to lynch Klingon. Zakk was arguing to lynch Klingon. Very outside chance of Zakk thinking Klingon's death was a foregone conclusion and wanting the bus to complete given that Klingon was already vulnerable and prior to that he wasn't vulnerable other than to RC's push.

[Zoronos]

Sure.
I was re-reading late D1 stuff and seeing what conclusions I could draw. It jumped at me. Not necessarily relevant to current game state, but I wanted to note it.

[Zoronos]

That's a quote from Tarkin, not the Emperor.

[Zoronos]

Jogger - Who do you feel is the scum team, and why?

[Zoronos]

Dear Even Night Doctor, give your Odd Night Doctor pal a hand.
Thanks.

[Zoronos]

Anyway, I am somewhat suspicious of Jogger on the read-back from D1's events.
Someone other than Woody should do some interrogation there if I happen to die mysteriously in the night.

[Zoronos]

Jogger? Yeah. On a read back through D1 there was some suspicious doin's a transpirin' around the Klingon lynch from that slot.
He's a distant third or fourth in suspicion though. And I don't really trust you to be unbiased, so I'd rather someone else handled the interrogation. I tried to start the discussion, but the day got ended somehow.