Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[CB]

/confirm

[CB]

Wow a lot of activity already. Is there bad blood between Nacho and Heartless? Mafia may have gunned him to get him to shoot Heartless.

I thought Nacho was just joking around but Heartless's reaction seemed like they had a history.

[CB]

Wow a lot of activity already. Is there bad blood between Nacho and Heartless? Mafia may have gunned him to get him to shoot Heartless.

I thought Nacho was just joking around but Heartless's reaction seemed like they had a history.

Hey CB, wanna lynch CB?
It seems you already want to.

I don't want to OMGUS him

[CB]

Dang every time I look at this thread it grows 5 pages.

Nacho seems like a very good player. He is asking very pointed questions and good at applying pressure. Right now I am worried that since he is such a good player, mafia may be trying to bait him into shooting a vengeful mafia to get him out of the game early. It would make sense since they gave such a good player a gun first. The quicker he is out the game the better for mafia. I am kind of afraid that vonflare is a trap right here. It is strange how much scum got pushed on him so quickly.

Also reading back through this post 35 is really weird to me. How does he accidentally make a post here that was meant for facebook, the interfaces are too different. I have a feeling it might have been meant for the mafia thread. Although I am not sure why he would post that in the mafia thread though.

[CB]

So I originally didn't really understand how this setup worked so I need to reevaluate. Since Mafia goons survival do not count towards mafia's win condition expect a lot busting for town credit this game.

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

Also right now I think Wanderer is town here. I like her lack of response to the pressure put on her like she didn't even care. I feel like town here doesn't care as much if they get shot since they don't die and they just become the new gunbearer. I dislike Flubber for similar reasons since he appears really defensive when being pressured. I understand the pressure against him is pretty weak and getting shot as town is against town's win condition but I still find it hard to get worked up over.

[CB]

@Heartless, I'm trying to figure out how to play this game and I don't even know how to respond further without

blatantly dropping towntells.

What do you mean by that?

[CB]

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

Would it change your thinking at all if I pointed out that Mafia have the same win condition we do and were probably just as confused as we were until recently?

It is possible that they just assumed that they were playing towards parity but I think that is unlikely the wording in the role pm doesn't seem that ambiguous and I think that there is a pretty good chance that at least one of the mafia picked up on it. I think the reason it took so long to be brought up in this thread is because I don't think many town actually read the Mafia role PMs in the OP.

@CB
I am really liking nachomamma's stint as gun bearer so far. I wish nacho can be in the game the entire time but we know this is impossible. But at the same time a town should never put the entire game on the hands of one person. as such we all need to contribute in good ways. So CB try to emulate what you like about nachomamma and do the same then we can rely on you later in the game too. Because this game is really about finding vengeful. Nacho getting one and dying is a good sacrifice.

I am feeling a little uneasy about this post. The tone of it suggests you know my alignment.

@Heartless, I'm trying to figure out how to play this game and I don't even know how to respond further without

blatantly dropping towntells.

What do you mean by that?

That I wanted to respond and typed several things all of which were towntells and in an earlier game I was called out on dropping towntells so I'm careful in doing that now.

These are just tells to identify you as town? you wrote up a post but felt it had content that would be construed as towny and that would get you scum read so you deleted it?

I don't want to OMGUS him

Where be CB's aura of towniness, then?

[CB]

Scum List:
Enomis - I don't like how he had to be called out for his posting before he started being serious 263. I don't like how he had zero mafia reads 272 . I don't like how he is defensive in this post 301. I don't like how he brought up the setup logic 228 after someone else had already asked the mod about it 185 and I don't like his defensiveness over a lurker.

Vonflare- Was extremely defensive after giving a list of reads he admits were weak at that stage of the game and has been inactive since. A lot has been said on this I agree with it. Don't think he is a vengeful goon though. Haven't heard a good reason on why people think he is town.

I have reconsidered on Flubber and have decided to move him to null. I feel the twitter post is outside the game and not a good thing to base a read on.

Town List:
Wanderer- I like how she corrected her read on me and admitted she was filtering her posting. That doesn't seem like something mafia would admit to.

Nonsense- There seems to be a relaxed feeling to their posts I like. Fairly weak town read just based on fluff.

I will try looking at others later.

[CB]

I'm wondering at Nacho's being chosen to be gunbearer. Is this because Nacho is a strong player and scum want him to make a shot based on the least amount of info possible (ie. on day one)?

This has got to be fake. C'mon, julien. You didn't think to look to the setup rules for this answer?

Can you elaborate on this I don't understand.

Hello.

Hello what do you think about the game so far?


@Maxwell Who do you think is the best shot among the actives right now?

[CB]

I'm in the middle of composing a readslist, but first, a reason why I'm focusing primarily on inactives first:

The only impact Mafia Goons can have on this setup is A) getting the gunbearer to shoot incorrectly, or B) acting as suspicious targets for Vengefuls to bus. The only scum that matter in this setup are the Vengefuls: for that reason, this game is basically an 11v3 No Lynching Town setup. For that reason, I expect many mafia goons to be pretty demotivated (since they have only a very very minute impact on their win condition), and thus people who are active lurking and doing absolutely nothing else are probably decent candidates for goons, especially after the win condition was made a bit clearer. I understand that people might be wary about giving a lurker the gun, but being afraid of having a bad gunbearer is a fear that can only hurt town. Scum will lurk. Scum need to be shot. If a lurker gets the gun, then it's up to the townies to step up and make their suspicions clear.

Why try to hit goons then and not vengefuls?

Also V/LA this weekend

[CB]

466 YEA(Scum), NAW(Town), NAW(Town), NAW(Town)

Comment on Lucky getting shot after the weekend. Do you agree with this shot?

I will preface this with saying I have never played with him before so I do not know his meta. He seems kind of trolly to me this game. I have a hard time reading people like that since they are not very emotionally invested into the game. I would not make that shot because it seems risky to me. Also I feel like there is a pretty good chance of a replacement for him some time in the future. People who play like him usually do.

Sorry, my mind was kind of muddled in the morning when I was writing that, so I didn't quite say what I wanted to say.
What I wanted to say is that I feel scum in general will have a very strong tendency to lurk because 1) if they are goons, it is very very difficult for them to have any significant effect on the gamestate, and 2) if they are vengefuls, it is VERY VERY important for them to play well and there's not a very good chance of them winning meaning they might lurk out the game thanks to nervousness or hopelessness. For this reason, I think we should be pretty aggressive in shooting lurkers. There is a worry they won't be good gunbearers, yes, but that's what things such as the referendum system (keeping main suspicion in a very easy and readable format) and universal townreads taking a large hand in influencing shots (once they're referendum voted in) is for. Do you agree with that?

I feel like this game has a lot of reason for town to lurk as well. It is very town sided setup so not much effort is required to win so town is going to be lazy. I kind of feel as town we could RNG our shots and have a good chance of winning. Also some town may have joined just to become a gunbearer and not actually play the game of mafia.

I like this brutal honesty. This is kind of a "no duh" thing, but I like how it flys in the face of all the great planners. As good of intentions as players like Nacho and CB have, they are necessarily dragging some of us kicking and screaming (metaphorically) through this phase of the game. At least speaking for myself, but I assume enomis would agree.

Actually this post gives me townvibes on enomis. I would like to see what CB has to say about it given his earlier scumread.

I don't think anyone was recommending that we do a voting system where the gunbearer does not get the right to shoot. Naturally the confirmed town should always lead the shot. I just think people wanted to force interactions of mafia just like in a normal game where mafia have to decide whether or not to join a wagon. This leads to better associative reads down the line. The fact that he is misrepresenting what people were saying makes him seem slightly scummy.

[CB]

Nachomamma8, gun-bearer, shot himself on Day1

So, what about Wanderer's idea that all players should make their own referendum?

That probably wouldn't work. Scum have an easier time ignoring the person without the gun. Although I think her point about hiding stuff in walls has merit. If you suspect someone it would make sense to have it in a separate post. It would have more impact that way.

I pledge, here and now, that I won't shoot anyone on this list should I have the gun. I encourage the others on this list to do the same. Anyone on this list can quote me on that.

Nacho seems like a strong player but his reads were made without any flips. I don't think it is good town play to not reconsider at all as the game goes on. Nachos reads seemed to change quite a lot in a couple of pages.


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Scum:Enomis, Vonflare, Jeanne, Julien
Town:Wanderer, Pablito

-I have removed Perpetual Nonsense from my town list. I gave them a weak town read on their posting style but I don't think I can keep that read at this stage of the game. They need to start providing serious content.
-I have added Jeanne too much lurking and the posts she had made seem a bit off to me.
-I have added Julien. I kind of liked his opening posts but that catch up post 531 was really underwhelming to me. I don't like how he seemed very apathetic towards the game.
-I have added Pablito to my town list. He has pushed on people who he would never have pushed on if he were scum. (sheeping Nacho some here)

[CB]

-I have added Julien. I kind of liked his opening posts but that catch up post 531 was really underwhelming to me. I don't like how he seemed very apathetic towards the game.

I have thought about this and I think I misspoke when I called that post apathetic. It is more of a feeling that he felt the need to appear to be putting out content that I find scummy.

-I have added Pablito to my town list. He has pushed on people who he would never have pushed on if he were scum. (sheeping Nacho some here)

I have rescinded by town read here. I think that mafia goon ideally would be throwing scum on unpushed targets so I cannot clear him for doing that without knowing the alignment of the people he is pushing on. I have pablito as a town lean for suggesting the referendum system but I don't think that is enough to put him in my town list. Townreads are the key to winning this setup so I need to be certain of the player. I mean it is only three correct town reads for an auto win.

[CB]

Townreads are the key to winning this setup so I need to be certain of the player.

I agree with this 100%. How do you feel about Heartless as of late?

Typically the way I read hydras is on how they interact with each. Mafia hydras are more likely to agree with each other since they know everyone's alignment and they both know who they need to push on for mislynches.
While town hydras there will be more conflict on who to push on since it is very rare for two town to have reads that line up.
So they both push on Wanderer. Wanderer comes up with a towny post and then they both back off right away. When one makes a push the other calls that push really well done.

These posts raise alarm bells in my head:

I've

decided to trust Antihero's judgment on wanderer and keep her in the town column

. I'm not happy about it but Antihero was on the right side of our last wedge read similar to this one (Bookitty in DoA) so I'll just keep an eye on it but I won't push it unless I have the confidence to override him on the read.

this post is beautiful
and should be framed and put on an art museum wall.

yeah, tth is hitting the nail on the head and scum don't have a response so they shat their pants and circled the wagons.

Also 25 was an interesting jokey post. I found it fairly convincing it makes me thing they are a strong mafia player. So there is a fear element that I could be manipulated by them here.

With that being said the pushes have felt like they have come from a towny perceptive. I am more nervous of the slot than anything right now.

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I think PN has started recently advocating a CB shot because maybe he thinks that will dissuade others from shooting him. However, in my mind, I'd kind of welcome PN attempting to shoot CB because it would remove an anti-town element and put the gun in good hands. That said, I'm happy with the gun in Victor's hands as well.

Are WE the only one who sees this as a scum slip?

Kind of. He understands that town reads are the key to winning the setup but is ok with one being shot. Although this post felt more jokey than serious so I wouldn't take much from it.

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I'd kind of like a reminder of why most of the game is currently fellating CB. The theorycrafting parts of his posts are really well written and ring all the right bells but when you dig into the meat of the reads, you see a lot of cookie-cutter stuff and not much outside-the-box thinking. Post 337 and Post 592 are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.

To be honest I feel most of what I have said could have easily been said by scum so I was surprised when I was getting so heavily town read. If mafia wants to spew me town w/e.

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-I have added Julien. I kind of liked his opening posts but that catch up post 531 was really underwhelming to me. I don't like how he seemed very apathetic towards the game.

I have thought about this and I think I misspoke when I called that post apathetic. It is more of a feeling that he felt the need to appear to be putting out content that I find scummy.

With all due respect, that is bullshit. Is the optimum play now to wait around doing nothing until Victor decides to shoot someone?

No I am not scum reading you for providing content.

I mostly extracted that read out of this statement:

I realise this post is a bit insubstantial but am running out of steam a bit.

I think this sentiment feels out of place in this game. In a game where most people signed up because they thought it would be cool to be the gun bearer and in a game where you can't get mislynched. I don't think town really has much of a fear of appearing scummy. Why were you worried of how your post would be perceived? I don't think town makes an excuse like that.

[CB]

VictorDeAngelo shoots Pablito

First matter of business. Nacho proposed a short list of "do not shoot" people. I want to see those on the list to comment on whether they agree with this plan or not. I also want those not on the list to comment on whether they think following Nacho's idea of a "do not shoot" list.

I have never played with Nacho so I cannot attest to the accuracy of his reads. Is he really that much of a better player that he can determine people's alignments that much better than the other town players in this game even with the help of flips?

[CB]

Typically the way I read hydras is on how they interact with each. Mafia hydras are more likely to agree with each other since they know everyone's alignment and they both know who they need to push on for mislynches.
While town hydras there will be more conflict on who to push on since it is very rare for two town to have reads that line up.

So they both push on Wanderer. Wanderer comes up with a towny post and then they both back off right away. When one makes a push the other calls that push really well done.

fact check: they did not both push wanderer.
(as an aside: part of having good chemistry in a hydra is knowing when to trust each other)

Clarifing and defending a push is pretty much the same as pushing in my eyes.

totally not tth's issue. she has a problem with your reads. not... whatever you're talking about something about figuring out how to play the game.

she's already been over this... the logic chain isn't particularly hard to follow either.

wanderer takes up a lot of space w/ theory and the reads are superficially OK looking but they're limited to the ppl most talked about and they're limited to only 2 ppl. and it's not like wanderer is a completely clueless newb either.

wanderer CAN scumhunt but won't scumhunt. why? tth is saying it's b/c wanderer is scum and she might be right.

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Side note to CB: I'm going to go ahead and brag

a little bit

OK, I'm going to brag a lot and say you don't get a record like ours by being hopelessly dissonant. Click into our wiki sometime to see what I mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartless Couldn't find it.

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To expound a bit, we'll quite probably be losing pablito at some point (if we don't, he'll definitely get a scummy nomination from me).

Town slip maybe? I feel mafia would be more aware of vengefuls and their role.

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I'm going to try to ask some questions and put forth some ideas for discussion soon. In the meanwhile, everyone please post your 2-4 strongest town reads right now with reasons why. Most people have done so, but not everyone. These lists may have changed as well over time. Based on these lists of town-reads, I'll expand my "will not shoot D3" list to coincide with my own choices for town reads as well.

I have likes Wanderer for a while. Her posting seems honest to me. She is willing to admit to things scum normally wouldn't. I feel her reconsideration of Enomis is towny I don't think scum would do that I feel like they would just keep pushing.
I like West9 as well almost everyone of his posts has been pushes to determine people's alignment. I really like his push on Vonflare it made a lot of sense to me. He is actually scumhunting in a game were most people are too lazy to.

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Referenda 2.1

That those listed as likely to be town by Nachomomma8 (due to searching of town tells), should not be shot. These players include: CB, pablito, wanderer-nl, Heartless, RedCoyote. Furthermore, RC asks for those on the list to pledge to not shoot the others on the list as well.
YEA: RedCoyote, Heartless, wanderer-nl(?), West9
NAY: MaxwellPuckett (not the ppl listed at least)
Deferred: CB, Flubbernugget, julienvonflare, Jeanne11, Perpetual Nonsense*
Ignored: millar13, Lucky2u, enomis, Feirei, vonflare

*Deferred being players who made some type of mention of stating they did not have the time to post or acknowledged the subject but did not vote.
**Ignored being players who completely did not make any type of comment on the post, but still posted something that wasn't a prodge.

So I have never played with Nacho so I do not know his ability and I am not going to blindly trust a player that I have never played with before. Right now the only person who has spoken for his ability is RC who if scum has a lot of motivation to push for it. I am just not seeing the difference between Nacho's do not shoot list and the do not shoot list of every gun bearer who will be a confirmed town that comes after him. So I right now I am saying

NAY

. It is a winning strategy but it is predicated on if Nacho is right on the other three people and I don't think I am willing to commit to that.

[CB]

Those that I am still considering to shoot:
enomis, Feirei, Flubbernugget, Lucky2u, MaxwellPuckett, millar13, Perpetual Nonsense, vonflare, West9

Everyone please nominate 1-3 people I should add to my shortlist. I plan on releasing a shortlist of 2-4 in the next few days. So if you have a strong case on someone that I might have been blind to, please let me know right now.

I would nominate Enomis and Vonflare off of that list.

Enomis for the scummy way he has been calling people town. It is almost like he is trying to tie himself to town to produce false associative reads after he ever flips scum. 717 797 450 They are all very strange. 272 the no scum reads post I feel is telling as well. Someone had mentioned how scum in this setup will be very hesitant to call town scum just because if they ever push hard for a miss shot on a town that person is going to be likely to shoot them after they get a gun. Right now he only has two scum reads I think that is a realistic possibility here.

Vonflare had a scummy readlist was pressured a little bit for it then disappeared out off of the game. It is like something out of a scum textbook.

Side note to CB: I'm going to go ahead and brag

a little bit

OK, I'm going to brag a lot and say you don't get a record like ours by being hopelessly dissonant. Click into our wiki sometime to see what I mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartless Couldn't find it.

There's a mafiascum wiki. Here's Heartless http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Heartless

A perfect streak going on. That may be important on how to read them.

[CB]

Suzune replaces julienvonwolfe. Please welcome her!!!

Jeanne11 have been force replaced. Looking for her replacement!!!

Welcome!

Also I am really uncertain of the town read on CB. Everyone seems to unanimously agree that he is town. Why? When I started reading this I thought it was clear that he was mafia. He seemed to be shadowing the town and copying the other people's styles and picking at small elements.

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you accusing me of sheeping people? Some reads I liked I sheeped some I had come up on my own. I can only really think of maybe one consensus read right now and that is Wanderer is town and I was the first one to call her town I think.

The mafia has no reason to scumhunt because they already know, instead they should look for mistakes.

Huh what mistakes did I point out?

A good majority of his posts are theory building on how mafia or townies should act. post 535 and post 592 These are predominant moments.

Finding out how mafia and town should act is a pretty good way to find out who is mafia and town. Do you disagree?

While the rest of the posts are just kind of fluffy. I like how she did this or that. post 337 I just feel like a townie should try harder then that. I mean some players are clearly going above and beyond in this game. However, this might be a play style issue rather then a scum/townie issue.

Yea effort applied isn't really the most reliable scumtell. I like reads short and sweet if you over complicate things you just end up in paranoia. I disagree that my reads are fluffy though.

The last little pet peeve of mine that was really irking me while I read this was, "Well I have never played with this person but..." I apologise but I have not played with any of the people in this game and I think in a site as vast as this it happens quite a lot. So continuing to mention it adds nothing in my opinion to the potential read of a person. One should be able to judge their play style on the game alone even without the meta to back it up.

Well both times I brought up meta was in reference to referendums made based on meta. The first time, Nacho said he was scum reading Lucky based on lucky's meta and wanted everyone's input in whether or not he should shoot him. I gave my read on him but prefaced it with that I didn't know his meta like Nacho did. The second time was in reference to if we should not shoot Nacho's town reads since his reads are site renowned. I claimed I have not played or seen Nacho play before so I am not going to follow his reads like that when I become the gunbearer. Both times I was claiming I was not going to use meta so you and me are in agreement here.

Also is this a scumtell of yours? Not really seeing the point.

Others who have caught my eye as being potentially mafia are Feirei and millar. They seem to be quite inactive and their posts add little to the game.

In a game like this the town might want to lurk

, however it is not protown to at least aid in investigation.

Did you forget Jeanne? Also why would town want to lurk this game?

As far as heartless goes, I think they are probably town. This is the first game I have ever played with a hydra so I have no experience. So going just off of their posting style and the things they say, I think they seem pretty town.

This sounds like one my reads

I do like this post overall though you brought a new perspective instead of just sheeping the town consensus.

[CB]

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you accusing me of sheeping people? Some reads I liked I sheeped some I had come up on my own. I can only really think of maybe one consensus read right now and that is Wanderer is town and I was the first one to call her town I think.

No, I did not accuse you of sheeping people, rather I accused you of adapting your style to fall into the shadows.

You noticed behaviors the town liked and you started picking them up.

This is good playing, and I do not dislike you for it rather I applaud you, however, it is still a scum practice and you are doing it very neatly.

Such as?

Also what do you mean about falling into the shadows?

Huh what mistakes did I point out?

None. You just comment generally on things rather then look for specific details. Your posts are friendly but generally lack in substance. So you appear helpful without moving the story along much. In my opinion at least, everyone does not have to share it. It was honestly my first impression when reading the game and the first note I wrote down.

Meh I believe I have commented generally and looked at specifics. Also how do you differentiate between mistake finding and scum hunting in game?

Finding out how mafia and town should act is a pretty good way to find out who is mafia and town. Do you disagree?

No good sir, I do not disagree. However, I was merely pointing out the a good majority of what you say in this game is theory crafting. While I enjoy people who wax poetically about mafia, styles and strategies, there comes a time when you need to apply the theory you craft. Crafting is great but using it to build is better.

Huh a lot of the reads I put out are based on that theory crafting on how town and scum will feel about this game.

All I meant, was that you seemed to hold back your opinion on people more if you were unfamiliar with them. You prefaced the reads on them as though you could not be certain because you did not have meta on them. People's actions should be able to be judged by the current game without meta. Or at least that is my standpoint. Is what a scumtell? Asking that question? Hardly, it was simply an observation of mine.

Well I have only played with one person here before so you won't have to worry about me bringing up meta. And I was asking if me prefacing a post with I don't know their meta a scumtell for you. It almost looked like you were trying to be deliberately antagonistic if not.

For someone who was so obviously town to everyone, I wondered how they could say that with such inconclusive evidence.

I don't really know. At first I thought scum were trying to buddy up with me by calling me town on so little but then everyone started town reading me so who knows maybe I am just an easy town read.

Townies that do not know what to do in a game like this tend to lurk our of insecurity of playing something unfamiliar, also, if you do not have strong opinions or ideas you would not want to attract getting shot because then you would be forced with making the next target. This is just a perspective viewpoint, I have played a few games like this before and I have seen it happen.

I don't agree here. I feel like the unique feature of this game is the gun bearer and I believe it was the reason most people signed up.

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Suzune vs. CB - keep it up.

As such, can I ask Heartless to come back to try to tear apart PN?

And maybe Flubber to go back on vonflare. That energy is greatly appreciated and I wish it weren't just specific to dyads here. It's almost as if town (or mafia) is setting up some interesting dyads of town vs. mafia...or I hope not mafia vs. mafia.

As such, I hope to see Maxwell tear someone apart and can't wait to see who it could be.

wanderer-nl and vonflare already had their stints previously in the game, so I think they deserve a break from the outright argumentation for now.

It is like you are running a cock fighting ring

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I'm also annoyed that people are suddenly seeing a scum!enomis while when I was still scumreading him it wasn't supported. I won't scream town on enomis (my townread isn't that strong) but wtf guys?

Why do you think he is town? You explained why you rescinded your scum read of him but you never explained your town read.

@CB: you already answered why town would lurk this game, do you remember?

Yep I remembered. I wanted to hear a new perceptive though.

[CB]

Feirei's a bit of a leap of faith since Feirei himself didn't really do much, but I think my gut's good on this one and

I really don't see the early game play from deep-city-lights coming from scum

. The abrasiveness in Post 665 is appropriate, not over-the-top, and comes off as townish and the scum read on vonflare is pretty good.

Could you explain that.

Now, let's revisit our favorite old friend, Flubbernugget.
Let me just start off this rant by calling all sorts of bullshit all over the "this is townFlubber meta" crowd. Bullshit. You want a game where Flubber gets caught with his pants down and then starts blustering about misrep and how it's oh-so-scummy to push him? Here's Drawn on Arrival again.

I understand you have seen him play this way as scum but why are you so sure he can't behave the same way as town? I have seen plenty of OMGUS towns before.

Also is the push for a TVT read a common mafia strategy that seems strange to me?

[CB]

it looks like you began to take on the style of writing that the gunbearer at the time was using. Your posts became really similar and everyone began to say how town you are. Whether you started slow or not is another question.

That is interesting I did find him a very good player so it wouldn't surprise me if I did it subconsciously.

Also how do you differentiate between a specific and a general read? Is a specific read just backed by quote or is it like a tone and language thing for you?
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By falling into the shadows I am suggesting that you used the town status to obtained to be less active since no one was reading you scum, there was no reason to be active. You were safe in other words. Did that make sense?

I feel my activity has been fairly consistent. Is there a specific point in which you thought that my activity dropped? or is it just my overall activity? Which I agree is fairly low but pretty consistent with my other games.
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I apologise, I do not understand why you do not understand what I am saying. Let me try again. I am saying that theory crafting is good and an excellent skill for both town and mafia alike. However, it is one thing to wax poetically about theories and another thing to use the potential theories to back your reads. This is the difference. I feel that you are suggesting theories but not backing them up.

I understood what you were saying I was just offering my perspective. I felt like I was applying game theory and using them to form reads so I am a little confused when you say I am not backing up my theory. Here are a couple of examples:

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

Also right now I think Wanderer is town here. I like her lack of response to the pressure put on her like she didn't even care. I feel like town here doesn't care as much if they get shot since they don't die and they just become the new gunbearer.

I have rescinded by town read here. I think that mafia goon ideally would be throwing scum on unpushed targets so I cannot clear him for doing that without knowing the alignment of the people he is pushing on. I have pablito as a town lean for suggesting the referendum system but I don't think that is enough to put him in my town list. Townreads are the key to winning this setup so I need to be certain of the player. I mean it is only three correct town reads for an auto win.

How did you expect me to back up the theories I was suggesting?
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh goodness, I do not mean to be antagonistic. I am so sorry if you feel I am antagonising you. I did not mean to. It just appeared strange that you would preface weaker posts, in my opinion, with that.

No worries. All is fair in love, war, and mafia. I am just trying to determine your alignment.

Also what is your read on Lucky by the way?

[CB]

@CB: you wanted to know why I was townreading enomis now. Here it is. If you have any questions I'd like to hear them.

enomis actually shifted to become a townread for me. His questions to me earlier felt like he was misrepping me but after reevaluating it's probably misscummunication. He also didn't actually call me scum during that questioning so I don't know how I got there. Because he explained he had an early townread on me I'm now seeing his questioning as figuring me out instead of misrepping me.
CB has looked town to me from the start. I'm still not too sure about RC myself but I'm willing to put him on the do-no-shoot-soon list too.
Flubber reads town to me too but that's just a small meta-thing, I've played with scumFlubber and this doesn't look like it.

Most to least: CB, enomis, Flubber, RC.

I would like to move west9 to my do-not-shoot-soon list because I like how he doesn't fall for that big post from Suzunne just because it looks like she did work so must be town.

PEdit:
Nah nothing to edit.

Oh I miss understood this then. You now town read him because he was asking you questions to determine your alignment?

[CB]

CB - I am officially noting that you are distracting from the shortlist and are opening up conversations that I have specifically asked to not be opened. Get on track please.

I didn't realize it was going to be that structured.

----------------------------------------
Perpetual Nonsense

My two previous posts:

Nonsense- There seems to be a relaxed feeling to their posts I like. Fairly weak town read just based on fluff.

I have removed Perpetual Nonsense from my town list. I gave them a weak town read on their posting style but I don't think I can keep that read at this stage of the game. They need to start providing serious content.

I gave them an initial town read for their high amount of jokey posts. The quantity and jokey nature of their posts implied to me that they were comfortable putting themselves out there with the type of content that normally gets you a lot of pressure. Their name also implied a bit of a gimmick account so I wasn't really expecting that much content from them so I gave them a bit of a pass on the fluff.

Although I had a slight town read on them it really wasn't the greatest read so I felt I needed to apply pressure to get them to contribute more so I revoked my read in hopes that they would.

662- Feels like their first major post that was serious which I liked for the most part. Though I don't like how far their activity has fallen off since making their first serious post it implies that they are not comfortable coming up with content. I feel like they feel like they can't go from that post to the fluffy content they were providing at the beginning of the game.

----------------------------------------
West9

My previous post about him

I like West9 as well almost everyone of his posts has been pushes to determine people's alignment. I really like his push on Vonflare it made a lot of sense to me. He is actually scumhunting in a game were most people are too lazy to.

The conclusions he reaches mirror a lot of my same thoughts when I was reading through the thread. So it leads me to believe that he also has a towny mindset.

There is a fear world for me though. The way Vonflare totally folded made me think of how scum act after their partner busts them. So there is a chance that West9 is a Vengeful busting his goon partner Vonflare but I think you always have to shoot Vonflare before you ever shoot West9 if that is your worry. Also I am not too worried of that because the early interactions felt so organic it didn't feel like a preplanned play.

----------------------------------------
Enomis

My previous posts about him:

Enomis - I don't like how he had to be called out for his posting before he started being serious 263. I don't like how he had zero mafia reads 272 . I don't like how he is defensive in this post 301. I don't like how he brought up the setup logic 228 after someone else had already asked the mod about it 185 and I don't like his defensiveness over a lurker.

Enomis for the scummy way he has been calling people town. It is almost like he is trying to tie himself to town to produce false associative reads after he ever flips scum. 717 797 450 They are all very strange. 272 the no scum reads post I feel is telling as well. Someone had mentioned how scum in this setup will be very hesitant to call town scum just because if they ever push hard for a miss shot on a town that person is going to be likely to shoot them after they get a gun. Right now he only has two scum reads I think that is a realistic possibility here.

For the first post I think I was wrong on that getting called out for fluffy posting point and the defending lurkers point. At the time I was hoping pressuring the lurkers would get them to participate more so I got a bit frustrated and I think I overshot with that first post. I am still not a fan of the zero scum read post or his bringing up the true setup after someone already had brought it up it seemed like he was trying to sneak in town cred.

His play since then has just continued to be very odd. His scum reads now are two gut reads and

I read that lucky post as scum cause i thought the pov (where he checked the thread and realise he is not dead, then post that) was likely based on the way he worded his post. He is already in the center of attention. It doesn't matter whether he draws attention or not.

Which is hard for me to understand what he means there. He just feels very scummy to me.

Enomis > PN > West9 right now.

[CB]

Town Win Condition:
Town wins when they remove all mafia or when it is 1 vs 1 with mafia. (If it is Vengeful, it's a draw)

Mafia Win Condition:
Mafia wins when they remove all town or when the last living town player is gun-bearer (Mafia must outrun town strength)

If in a 1v1 situation wouldn't that mean the last living town player is then the gun-bearer? These seem to contradict to me.

------------------------------------

I'm adding both vonflare and MaxwellPuckett to the shortlist.

I am assuming you want us to talk about them.

On Maxwell:
I don't think I have commented on him this game. I had a town lean on him early. He was the first to ask about the setup which I didn't see any scum motivation to do 185. I also felt like he had a lot excitement about the game early which I think is always more towny since so few people like playing scum. I do feel like that excitement and interest seemed to wane after you got the gun which I do not think is a good sign since he was your top mafia and maybe he feels like he doesn't need to try as much if he thinks he is going to die anyways. Although I don't know if it is entirely fair to judge him on that since apathy seems fairly contiguous this game.

On Vonflare:

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

Vonflare- Was extremely defensive after giving a list of reads he admits were weak at that stage of the game and has been inactive since. A lot has been said on this I agree with it. Don't think he is a vengeful goon though. Haven't heard a good reason on why people think he is town.

Vonflare had a scummy readlist was pressured a little bit for it then disappeared out off of the game. It is like something out of a scum textbook.

I had him as a mafia goon early. I have been thinking about the game a bit and I think it is bad play to just assume that mafia is playing ideally with their respective roles so i do not like that first post but I do think it would unlikely he would be such a universal scum read if he were a vengeful. I think he would be more angry here if he were town unless he is just waiting his time to get revenge on all of us.
------------------------------------

I still want Enomis shot the most.

Also, can you add me to your short list? I want to see the types of cases people make on me. I'm the best when I'm finding bullshit and relationships.

I read http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=61986

If a game is slow and I'm not poking to pick up the pace, bet good money I am a scum or a PR or having real life issues.

Are you a PR?
Also you are setting yourself up to lean heavily on associative reads in a game where half the mafia team are glorified tree stumps that don't count towards parity.

[CB]

Outrun means scum would have to have more than one left alive for them to win, I think.

read pls

Oh I understand now.

That's my case on Maxwell. Comments? Defenses? Distractions to the Maxwell shot? I'm still open to the vonflare shot, btw.

Your case is compelling but IMO I still think Vonflare is the better shot just because I think he has a greater chance of flipping mafia. Especially with the new rule change with goons being able to win on their own just aiming for vengefuls isn't as necessary. I am sort of fine with a shot on all the people on your short list though so it is w/e.

[CB]

What scum slip?

Am I not allowed to say, after he is already dead and waiting for the flip, "I had a townread on him"

If he is town he doesn't die he becomes the next gunbearer. That is what I found weird about your use of the word "was"

[CB]

I'm just saying I had a townread on him. Nothing more.

You are either misreading or misrepresenting what I said.

Why do you have a townread on him?

[CB]

]

MonkeyMan576

replaces millar13

Welcome!

----------------------------------------------
A couple of things about the flip:

Maxwell was the first one to bring up the setup logic of Vengefuls being the only ones who could win the game 149. This means any world in which mafia originally misunderstood the setup and were using vengefuls more like jesters to get the stronger players out of the game early is very unlikely.

Also the fact that one of his hard stances he took was against the do not shoot list 567 makes me think that none of people on that list are vengeful.

Judging him on his day 3 by the effort he put into his posts makes me feel as if he thought himself a dead man walking at that point so was just putting out random spew so I won't place much important into associative interactions on that day.

His day one is a bit all over the place. He goes back and forth a lot on his reads doesn't really take many hard stances on other players. Gives a soft ball scum read on Julien for pressuring Wanderer but later rescinds on that read looked more like an attempt to buddy with Wanderer than anything to me. Doesn't want to shoot lurkers but later does. Puts out a readlist with one slight scum on it and just a bunch of observations. It is like his approach this game was to limit any associative reads off of him.

West9 did soft defend a bit but I don't think mafia sticks their head out there to protect a goon. Soft defends lucky and pushes for Vonflare and Millar 456 to be shot over him when he thought Millar was a bad shoot a few posts before 453 and gave a town read on him before that 372.

More likely to be town: Millar, Vonflare, Wanderer, people on do not shoot list

More likely to be scum: Lucky

It is hard to sort through I will try again later.
----------------------------------------------

What is your Suzunne-read? (843 was a reply to 835 and the quote comes from Suzunne 826 and I would even appreciate short postlinks over quotes without name and postlink)

On the fence, a lean scum due to Julien.

Scummie

:
I think her original post was alright but she later identifies going against the grain as a town tell so I feel like it is something she would add into her scum play.

I sort of get a town read from him. He does not always have the same opinion as everyone else and scum would typically want to sheep in order to not draw attention to themselves.

The fact that she seemed very noncommittal to the read supports this.

However, this might be a play style issue rather then a scum/townie issue.

As well as the appeasement type language which would be weird to use when talking to a legitimate scum read.

Townie

:
A lot of her posts seem to come right off of her notes which indicates a more stream of consciousness mindset which I think is more likely to come from town than scum.

From a certain perspective killing a vengeful is still a win for the mafia because they eliminate townies. Red asked be if it was not just people who wanted the gun. What if it is the other way around. If the regular mafia can blend in well then killing the vengeful forces us to lose townies and not know where to look. Just a sudden revelation that I had.

Yea I think mafia would be more aware of the role of Vengefuls in this setup. Vengefuls still carry most of the weight towards mafia's win condition.
----------------------------------------------

So we have a new list. We have Nacho's "never shoot" list and now we have Heartless' "scum list".
vonflare, Perpetual Nonsense, Lucky2u, West9, Titus, MaxwellPuckett, millar13
So what do you think?

I would take West9 off the others are fine.

Also pablito's current shortlist is now: Suzune, Titus, vonflare, West9.

Please rank order those 4 from "most want to be shot" to "least want to be shot".

Vonflare > Titus > Suzune > West9

----------------------------------------------

CB - I'm waiting for your post and reaction to Maxwell's flip most of all before any shot is made.

[CB]

PN - You said previously you would shoot Flubber, and then later CB, wanderer and Jeanne. How do you feel about those latter 3 still? I'm very curious to hear your view on Titus, especially.

updated reads
Flubber - null based on nonsense
CB - lean scum based on interactions
wanderer - null based on genuineness
Jeanne - lean town based on genuineness
titus - lean town based on passion

Getting scum vibes from this post due to the lack of passion and genuineness.

[CB]

I don't think I have ever seen someone this heavily scum read before.

[CB]

I thought Vonflare was town...

[CB]

Vonflare has been scum read since day 1. It was more likely to be a bus unfortunately

True but Vonflare deciding to post a bunch of scummy stuff after lurking for so long was a little strange.

[CB]

Hello, I am looking for a Back-up mod for my game - Open 596 Mega Pop-Corn Mafia.
I am going out of station on 12the june and will not be returning until 21 and I will be having very limited internet access. If anyone interested please IM me directly.

I am travelling Thailand and may not have internet access. I wont even have my data services to phone post. So I am literally going to be offline but I might try as I can to make an effort but if this is a problem, pls do let me know.

Looks like Mod is gone

[CB]

The gun does things to people I think.

[CB]

Maybe you hit I don't know. He wasn't really on my radar.

[CB]

West
Kari
Enomis
Monkey

Current shot list. Bottom is who I want to shoot most. Hopefully WIP

I like the list. The only change I would make would probably Take out West and put in Suzunne or lucky.

[CB]

Suzune

Quick thoughts on flips:

Maxwell

soft defended lucky and pushed for

Vonflare

and

Millar

456 to be shot over Lucky when he thought

Millar

was a bad shoot a few posts before 453 and gave a town read on

Millar

before that 372.

Maxwell:Mafia goon
Millar: Mafia goon
Vonflare: Heavily scum read Vengeful
Lucky is probably a vengeful after all those flips. I would shoot him

[CB]

Is it wrong to think Ika is town because Fromage had to replace out after an "issue" was resolved?

[CB]

@Titus you are saying you are intentionally acting scummy to see what scum push you, what did you do that was intentionally scummy and why do you think scum are more likely to push on you for it?

[CB]

@CB, keeping myself on the short list. If scum had nowhere else to turn, they would finger me.

CB and RC don't stand out enough.

Not in this instance. They have a vengeful goon, if they can push a misshot (me) or the vengeful they remove obvtown.

The dumbtells....I guess they seem genuine

[CB]

prode

[CB]

ok, here's something to do

at THIS point, all we need are TWO GOOD TOWNREADS to lock in a win. everyone list their two. the two townreads YOU WOULD BET THE GAME ON.

go.

We actually only need one town lock to win now since there is only one vengeful left and mafia can't win with one goon.

My two town reads.
West9- He has felt towny and his pushes on mafia did not look like busting to me.
Wanderer- Early posts pinged me as very towny. Hasn't really been on my radar too much though so I will probably have to ISO to reaffirm and check associates.

I have thought about IKA's OGI thing and I don't think it is very reliable. I feel like the Mod would modkill if the slot was compromised not replace.

where my poe pool stands right now

[west, titus, cb]

I am not sure if I like any of these. Titus thought RC, the person mafia chose to give the gun was still in the game repeatedly. Which is something I feel mafia would be more conscious of and it would be a weird thing to do on purpose.

[CB]

I was saying I no longer have a town read on Ika

[CB]

just hoot titus or me and i will shoot her

I don't like this so far the people who have acted flippant about getting shot have been mafia (i.e. PN and lucky)

[CB]

Why do you think she is a vengeful?

[CB]

I'm right and she's been playing horribly since she enterend which might point to her being vengeful.

What do you mean by this?

[CB]

Dang I got fooled pretty hard this game.

I'm trying to figure out how to play this game and I don't even know how to respond further without blatantly dropping towntells.

I really didn't think this was something that mafia would be likely to admit to, well played. As well as her train of thought posting style which I thought was towny.

-----------------------------------

CB Why should I shoot Wanderer

Well guessing her being confirmed mafia from my POV isn't enough I have iso'd her and wrote down what I gleamed.

-In 288 she talks about how she doesn't care how she is perceived but in 259 and 270 she gives indicators of self filtration and in fact she does care how she is perceived. This implies fakery.

-In 178 224 pushes on partners early but rescinds scum reads off of them very quickly 298. They weren't the strongest pushes so I think it is clear it was early distancing.

-548 She attacked enomis for scumreading her partner lucky.

-1606 - Isn't an explanation on why I am mafia because she knows I am town.

Some General thoughts: I feel like she has relied heavily on apathy and confusion to get through the game. Also she hasn't been pushed on by any of the flipped mafia.

-----------------------------------

As for Kari, Feirei, deep-city-lights

-They have pretty much lurked the entire game.

-Their pushes have been on popular targets.

-They have played in a scummy way(lurky) but have not been pushed on by any mafia. That should be telling.

[CB]

I asked Arcangel before for a rule clarification and mafia has to outrun town strength meaning if it is one town against one goon it is a town win. So shooting a goon or vengeful first doesn't matter here. The only thing that matters is that the vengeful gets shot before me.

Shoot orders:
-->Goon -->Vengeful- Win
-->Goon --> Town -Tie
-->Vengeful -Win
-->Town - Loss

[CB]

Dang it we were so close to winning