Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[Wanderer-nl]

confirm

[Wanderer-nl]

Nacho, what's that game plan you were talking about? Or is it just the 'wait six days for discussion until I start killing".

I agree that Nacho should wait, though. Asking him to shoot now because you want to be the gunbearer or whatever isn't going to work. I'm pretty sure he'd like to play a bit before making what could be his final post.

Mod, question: I know you can't post when you're dead. Does that mean that the shooter is prohibited from posting after they've taken their shot, as they don't know if they are alive or dead until their target flips? A Schrodinger's gunbearer situation, if you will.

I like this for town. Also, it made me smile.

[Wanderer-nl]

I vote that we use votes, despite the cosmetic nature.

When I read the set-up, I thought about something that happened in a Lights Out 1 (completed theme park game in 2006) where Pooky created a referendum-based voting system to create a papertrail to ensure that there was always something to look back at. And in a game with "cosmetic votes", I think we need to do something specific to ensure that everyone can be held to some standard. Thoughts?

I also remember Kingmaker (and the subsequent other versions...I think there was a consulmaker too?) where there were several other voting methods in a game where a small number had power to decide the "lynch".

Yeah I like this. If we all vote the scum will have to join to not stand out so lets not wait too long either. If the gunbearer doesn't know who to shoot, they can always go with the person who has the most votes.
Or we decide right now the gunbearer will shoot the person with the most votes? That might pressure scum a little more into making cases on town.
When a gunbearer attempts to shoot a towny, he dies and the targetted townie gets the gun. If a vengeful gets shot, they both die and mafia gets to pick the new gunbearer. I think we should find the vengefuls as quick as possible because I'd rather have scum control the gun early game. It will be harder to assign a gunbearer later in the game because of associations.

I'll reread and see if I find something worthy of a cosmetic vote.

[Wanderer-nl]

I only signed up for this game because I thought it would be quick and fun. If you're serious about your over a week-long plan, then that's just stupid.

also, is there a reason you haven't talked about why you think heartless is vengeful or no

I assumed you were just being obstinately oblivious. But I hate all the people immediately shouting "SHOOT ME" - you obviously can't shoot them all, and I'm pretty sure there's actual scum calling your bluff in Heartless, Jeanne, and whoever else was doing that.

'Whoever else' includes dcl (129) so this just feels awkward to me. Also, if she really thinks there's scum in the people calling to shoot them, then why not check back to see who exactly it were instead of writing 'whoever else'?
Not a solid case but this early good enough for me to put a vote on.

VOTE: dcl

[Wanderer-nl]

'Whoever else' includes dcl (129) so this just feels awkward to me.

It is hypocritical, yes. But I have trouble viewing it as scummy: I think that dcl, regardless of her alignment, would be aware that she made the "shoot me" play not even two pages ago, and that as scum, she would be less likely to use that as her reasoning for her primary suspicion. Am I approaching this wrong?

Also, if she really thinks there's scum in the people calling to shoot them, then why not check back to see who exactly it were instead of writing 'whoever else'?

This sort of laziness seems null to me.

I already said it wasn't a solid case. I didn't really see anything that caught my attention besides lycky, but he was addressed for that already so I went with dcl. My vote was to stir up reactions, not a definite scumread. It's funny Vonflare is townreading me for it. Guess I did get something out of my vote.
VOTE: Vonflare

@Pablito: I think goons would encourage vengeful to be shot because it kills town in the process. So there won't be as much resistance to a vengeful being shot than if a plain goon was in danger of being shot. Honestly, I don't really know, it also depends on how scum intend to play this game. Without them having a NK, it will be harder to sort things out.

Looks like Vonflare is already under a lot of scrutiny and right now I don't have anything to add. One question: what is 'being ninjad'?

PEdit: Vonflare is looking very defensive to me. Town should always stay open to changing their reads when new info appears. His 222 seems overly defensive and frustrated and is like an excuse for suddenly changing his reads. Because in 221 he tells Flubber he doesn't have a scumread on him, but in his readslist he does.. Yeah, he can be shot.

[Wanderer-nl]

Yeah so I was just thinking that it's actually kind of weird Vonflare declared me town because he could have easily painted me scum, but that doesn't really matter in this setup. If the GB shoots other town, GB dies and target becomes new GB. I have absolutely no experience with this kind of setup, but my prediction is scum is going to be very careful when FoS'ing or even voting a GB-target.

@CB: it looks like a lot of people are jumping Vonflare but a lot of the discussion is really between Nacho and Vonflare and a little west and a naked vote from victor and a comment from flubber and me joinging later so I'm not sure how much of a trap it is.

[Wanderer-nl]

I like this post from CB, or his theory at least. I'm not sensitive to being called 'town' in a way that it makes me townread that person, but I like he was able to explain his thoughts clearly. I think it's a good idea to post a lot of thoughts about theories, and also try to decide what would be the most likely situation. Speculation about these things can give us info after flips. It's basically all we have without lynching, nightkills and PR's.
We need to force scum to be active, it would suck if we'd have to shoot a lurker and they turn out to be town, become GB, and then be of little use because they're not invested. Lurkers are extra dangerous this game.
I'll dig into some iso's later, first need sleep.

PEdit:
@Heartless, I'm trying to figure out how to play this game and I don't even know how to respond further without blatantly dropping towntells.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Heartless, I'm trying to figure out how to play this game and I don't even know how to respond further without

blatantly dropping towntells.

What do you mean by that?

That I wanted to respond and typed several things all of which were towntells and in an earlier game I was called out on dropping towntells so I'm careful in doing that now.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Pablito: Well, the posts in itself don't tell me much right now. I could see millar's posts coming from scum, barely any thoughts. It doesn't matter what I say about nacho, he's conftown so I should read all his posts as town-motivated even if I were scum.

I know I'm lacking content and am close to lurking. I haven't found motivation yet for going through iso's. I do have some early townreads on CB, Pablito, Maxwell and Nonsense started to look better.

[Wanderer-nl]

So I originally didn't really understand how this setup worked so I need to reevaluate. Since Mafia goons survival do not count towards mafia's win condition expect a lot busting for town credit this game.

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

Also right now I think Wanderer is town here. I like her lack of response to the pressure put on her like she didn't even care. I feel like town here doesn't care as much if they get shot since they don't die and they just become the new gunbearer.

I dislike Flubber for similar reasons since he appears really defensive when being pressured. I understand the pressure against him is pretty weak and getting shot as town is against town's win condition but I still find it hard to get worked up over.

This^
Except there's a slight difference: I don't want to be shot, I just don't care how I come accross.

[Wanderer-nl]

Finally got into iso's..

CB: 158 I don't think mafia would talk about GB-strategy 238 looks town too and everything after. Not a lot of posts which is nice, no fluff just content.

dcl: 108 I didn't like so much but then 109 made it ok again. 137 don't like this and 146. 150 was ok. A lot of fluff at the start, post 150 was the only reads dcl posted. Meh. Doesn't look like she plans on doing much this game.

enomis: I'm not even going to try to read him. Just type in fucking letters please.

Flubber: I believe his 240 I like how Flubber questioned Vonflare on his list 187, 191 and 192. Not much to go on, short posts with no real reads so null.

Heartless: 258 was nice post of thoughts. 290 yes, absolutely correct. That's what I always tell my scumreads too. Other posts weren't worth commenting on imo. Slight town even though little to go on, the thoughts that were shared felt like they came from town.

Jeanne: no content at all. Null.

Julien: 170 talking GB-strat, same as with CB; scum prolly won't. 237 his case on me looked valid to me but upon rereading I don't know I think it could also come from scum. He also missed my reason for voting Vonflare I think because it had nothing to do with the ninja-stuff but anyway. Kinda null-scum because he's focussing on me, and on Flubber scumreading Vonflare and dcl.

lucky: hasn't posted any content. I could say I didn't like his 104 because it's an excuse for bad scumhunting but that was already said so I'll shut up now. Null.

Maxwell: 149 looks town to me, which I already posted somewhere. 263 stood out to me as towny too. I think Maxwell is very clear in his thoughts and he engages with other players in almost all his posts, so townread on him.

millar: no content, mostly fluff, null-scum because active lurking.

nacho: is conftown. I like how he's sharing his thoughts with everyone and listening to all input instead of saying I'm GB I decide.

Pablito: I really liked 198 about his theory. 254 looks town to me too, scum wouldn't unvote on a feeling but try to make my words look bad. 282 I like how he's engaging with others, asking questions. Townread.

Nonsense: nothing in their posts stands out to me. I said earlier they're starting to look better, but I have to take that back. They're responding to things said in the thread, not really coming up with their own ideas/theories. Right now I'm null.

Coyote: No content, didn't even know the setup until his 255 which is also his last. Null

Victor: 5 posts: confirm, naked vote, 'yep', naked vote, announcing V/LA. I could call this scum actually, but officially null.

Vonflare: I'm being lazy and copy something from my own 224:

Vonflare is looking very defensive to me. Town should always stay open to changing their reads when new info appears. His 222 seems overly defensive and frustrated and is like an excuse for suddenly changing his reads. Because in 221 he tells Flubber he doesn't have a scumread on him, but in his readslist he does.. Yeah, he can be shot.

And from 239:

Yeah so I was just thinking that it's actually kind of weird Vonflare declared me town because he could have easily painted me scum, but that doesn't really matter in this setup. If the GB shoots other town, GB dies and target becomes new GB. I have absolutely no experience with this kind of setup, but my prediction is scum is going to be very careful when FoS'ing or even voting a GB-target.

I'll explain this one a little more since there seemed to be some confusion.
If Vonflare is scum and I'm scum: he wants me clear so he calls me town.
If Vonflare is scum and I'm town: in a normal day/night setup he would likely accuse me of a weird vote on dcl and scumread me, hoping town agrees and get me misslynched. Doesn't work in this setup because town doesn't decide in the end, but the GB. In this setup, I'm going on the assumption scum are not going to accuse town on little things because scum already know who's town and are going to be careful lying.
If Vonflare is town and I am town: Maybe he just hasn't thought a lot about what my content was and just based his townread on the fact that I had reads at all.
If Vonflare is town and I am scum: Same as above.
With these explanations it looks like I have no reason to think Vonflare is scum anymore. But I don't like how he handles his readslist, he posted it and then changes it right after. Yes, reads change, but usually not that fast.

west: 171 feels more like filler-questions, but it was early and one of the first more serious posts I think (a lot of fluff the first pages!) so in that light it's ok I guess. 194 and 202 is west pushing on Vonflare's being ninja'd. Which is ok to me because Vonflare kept whining he got ninja'd. Then in 208 west votes Vonflare because of Ninja thing, and oh also because of the worthless readslist. I don't know west, I've come up with circumstances that make it ok what you did but it still feels like you picked something out to focus on (re Vonflare) and are keeping to it. You're not really responding to the other things that were said about Vonflare. 283 I liked his question to Heartless because I felt the same way, but I don't get the part to Nonsense about the breaking rules thing. I have this feeling west is trying to look critical but isn't really. Would like to see him share more thoughts. Right now null with a good chance of turning scum.

The difference between enomis, jeanne, lucky, coyote as null-reads on no-content, and millar and a little Victor as null-scum on no-content is because millar and Victor have voted more than once.

[Wanderer-nl]

@enomis: so far I have seen scum actively lurk more than town. Town usually just lurks but scum wants to appear non-lurking so they post things to look active. I have no idea what you're saying, which makes you unreadable to me. Which comes down to a null-read, where I have my other lurker-reads as well..
298 I wrote:

The difference between enomis, jeanne, lucky, coyote as null-reads on no-content, and millar and a little Victor as null-scum on no-content is because millar and Victor have voted more than once.

That should have made it clear really. So how are those cherries?

[Wanderer-nl]

The thing about shooting inactive is that if it's town the gunmoves to inactive town. Do we want That? I don't. Silly caps on mobile.. Anyway I'd like to look for scum among the actives and leave shots inactive for near deadline.

[Wanderer-nl]

I can scumhunt, I'm just having trouble with this setup because I have no experience with voteless/nightless mafia whatsoever. I've played ww before so I do have some experience, and we used the mafiawiki for setups when we didn't do the standard doc+seer+5VT vs 2WW.
Are you 2 (as 1 hydra) not agreeing with each other? (I also have no prior experience with hydras)

[Wanderer-nl]

It is unfortunate, but to me more because I'm going to have so much trouble reading your slot! Put me under pressure, we want to find scum but we also want to find town.

Non-game related question: can you 2 be logged in in this hydra at the same time?

[Wanderer-nl]

*parts removed*
@ Wanderer in 298: In your discussion of vonflare, you say that presently you assume that "scum are not going to accuse town on little things because scum already know who's town and are going to be careful lying". How does that really differ from a normal game in which the alignment of the person who is lynched is revealed anyway? Scum need to whittle down the playerlist somehow.
You answer this below. It takes only one person to kill at the end of the day, not a majority. If scum try to make a case on town, they'll be less likely this game to come with bold statements because the townie that gets shot will become GB, conftown, and be able to shoot their suspect the next day. A good scumhunter I think will be able to tell who's scum on their *wagon* and who's town.

*more parts removed*

I've been thinking a bit more about the mechanic that means that a shot townie keeps the gun. I think that in this setup we should expect scum to take a less-than-pugilistic stance in this game because if they are seen to drive a mislynch, the person whom they mislynch will be alive the next day with the power to shoot whomever they like (and maybe a grudge as well). It makes sense, then, that scum would want to lurk or soft-pedal, perhaps even more so than in a normal game.

To that end I like the people who are getting stuck in a bit. Pablito and Heartless I think are town. I'm not sure that I like the content of West9's posts but his willingness to make his views known speak well for him based on my theory that scum will try to lurk this one out. Perpetual Nonsense tends towards active lurking but voted for RedCoyote, which I like. Flubber maybe.

Scum reads: Wanderer. In iso I think she's town, almost, but I dislike the 'I find it hard to play this because I have no experience' thing (don't people play theme games and deal with this sort of thing all the time?) and the way she is null on people like Coyote and Lucky 298. Also RedCoyote. Lucky. Millar. Enomis, who in 301 seems to acknowledge his own active lurking; defended Red as well.

'defended as well' where did I defend anyone?
If I can't read someone, they're null on my list.
And can you please stop misrepping. I said I have no experience with nightless, lynchless mafia. How do people that play themed games deal with this all the time? It's my first themed game on this site and I haven't read any other theme games, are you saying all themed games are nightless and lynchless?

[Wanderer-nl]

EBWOP:

*parts removed*
@ Wanderer in 298: In your discussion of vonflare, you say that presently you assume that "scum are not going to accuse town on little things because scum already know who's town and are going to be careful lying". How does that really differ from a normal game in which the alignment of the person who is lynched is revealed anyway? Scum need to whittle down the playerlist somehow.

You answer this below. It takes only one person to kill at the end of the day, not a majority. If scum try to make a case on town, they'll be less likely this game to come with bold statements because the townie that gets shot will become GB, conftown, and be able to shoot their suspect the next day. A good scumhunter I think will be able to tell who's scum on their *wagon* and who's town.

*more parts removed*
I've been thinking a bit more about the mechanic that means that a shot townie keeps the gun. I think that in this setup we should expect scum to take a less-than-pugilistic stance in this game because if they are seen to drive a mislynch, the person whom they mislynch will be alive the next day with the power to shoot whomever they like (and maybe a grudge as well). It makes sense, then, that scum would want to lurk or soft-pedal, perhaps even more so than in a normal game.

To that end I like the people who are getting stuck in a bit. Pablito and Heartless I think are town. I'm not sure that I like the content of West9's posts but his willingness to make his views known speak well for him based on my theory that scum will try to lurk this one out. Perpetual Nonsense tends towards active lurking but voted for RedCoyote, which I like. Flubber maybe.

Scum reads: Wanderer. In iso I think she's town, almost, but I dislike the 'I find it hard to play this because I have no experience' thing (don't people play theme games and deal with this sort of thing all the time?) and the way she is null on people like Coyote and Lucky 298. Also RedCoyote. Lucky. Millar. Enomis, who in 301 seems to acknowledge his own active lurking; defended Red as well.

'defended as well' where did I defend anyone?
If I can't read someone, they're null on my list.
And can you please stop misrepping. I said I have no experience with nightless, lynchless mafia. How do people that play themed games deal with this all the time? It's my first themed game on this site and I haven't read any other theme games, are you saying all themed games are nightless and lynchless?

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wanderer:

So voting while active lurking = null/scum, even though you can't lynch people this game? How is that....
And your town actively lurk more than scum is not true.

Sorry read this before I went to bed last night and planned to respond to it this morning but forgot.
I didn't say town actively lurk more than scum.
I said scum are more likely to active lurking because they want to appear active while they're really not.
Town is more likely to lurk by not posting at all, likely because someone just has no idea what to add to the thread.
Voting is expressing a scumread. The only times I don't mind a naked vote is when there's an investigator's guilty or an obvious case of scumslip or when the person voting has already been very vocal on their scumread. In this game votes don't count, but they can still tell us a lot. So I don't know why you're so focussed on that.

[Wanderer-nl]

It wasn't my idea to vote, I just jumped on it. Post 198 was when Pablito posted his example of a voting system.

I vote that we use votes, despite the cosmetic nature.

When I read the set-up, I thought about something that happened in a Lights Out 1 (completed theme park game in 2006) where Pooky created a referendum-based voting system to create a papertrail to ensure that there was always something to look back at. And in a game with "cosmetic votes", I think we need to do something specific to ensure that everyone can be held to some standard. Thoughts?

I also remember Kingmaker (and the subsequent other versions...I think there was a consulmaker too?) where there were several other voting methods in a game where a small number had power to decide the "lynch".

Yeah I like this. If we all vote the scum will have to join to not stand out so lets not wait too long either. If the gunbearer doesn't know who to shoot, they can always go with the person who has the most votes.
Or we decide right now the gunbearer will shoot the person with the most votes? That might pressure scum a little more into making cases on town.
When a gunbearer attempts to shoot a towny, he dies and the targetted townie gets the gun. If a vengeful gets shot, they both die and mafia gets to pick the new gunbearer. I think we should find the vengefuls as quick as possible because I'd rather have scum control the gun early game. It will be harder to assign a gunbearer later in the game because of associations.

I'll reread and see if I find something worthy of a cosmetic vote.

So I reread my post and I feel like I stopped in the middle of a thoughtprocess at the end. I think I know why I wasn't able to finish my thoughts there, it's massively contradicting.
I actually think it's better to avoid the vengefuls so when there's fewer players and more reads in the open, it's going to be more difficult for scum to assign the gun because it might give them away. I'm not sure if this was said already, I vaguely remember it was in some way but I don't really feel like looking it up right now.

@Maxwell: I like Pablito's suggestion of that vote-form, but it's basically the same as normal voting except there's a neat template.
I'm currently having a little stronger scumreads, and my opinion on Vonflare hasn't changed yet. Will get to that later, need a break first.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Heartless: A tad? You call 8 scumreads! How are you going to pick one of them out to 'vote' for shooting down?

[Wanderer-nl]

I just.. I'm just...

Tad is fine.

[Wanderer-nl]

I think I know what Flubber was saying, you seem to care a lot about being voted there. What's up with that?

Also:

was going to say something interesting about wanderer-nl, but Heartless' avi distracted me. i thought it was Zubat lol

I'm curious, did you remember it yet?

[Wanderer-nl]

It put me off that coyote added that rage from heartless in his reads. I took that as non-serious, and it also has been discussed before. I dunno, made me feel coyote had to look for stuff to write instead of thoughts coming to him naturally. This feeling from me gets strengthened because some stuff he responds to, he was online before that to comment on those things. Why now? I also don't feel coyote articulated his thoughts a lot in that post, he asked questions or made comment, but his thoughtprocess stays obscured. Will need to see more contribution to current dscussion from coyote to comfortably put him on the townside of null.

I still feel Vonflare was overly defensive after he posted his readslist. This 382 is the first real post since then and I don't have reason yet to put Vonflare on my townreads.
184 was his reads list where he had Flubber as red (=scumread) then in 221 Vonflare says he isn't scumreading Flubber. So I'm not taking his list as something that Vonflare thought about carefully, to me it looks more like a list that was put together for towncred. Also, his 222 where he uses large letters to tell us all the list is created to be modified, that should always be the case; town should always be willing to adjust reads when new info comes up. So to me that looked extra defensive.
Now I don't mind adjusting my read of Vonflare, but calling him town without reasons for it isn't gonna help me adjust my read.

I think it's funny enomis backed off of me like he did and starting to get a scumfeel there as well. It just feels like he realized he wasn't going anywhere with me so gave up.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Pablito: Yeah I missed the part where there would be a limited list of targets to pick from to fill one out. It makes a lot more sense like this. Ok lets start now because I'm getting tired of discussing this day.

Target: RedCoyote
Accuser: Wanderer
Rationale: He doesn't want to be shot and is ok to let town win, talking about town as if he's not part of it. Other than that, just useless posts and superficial reads that are barely even helpful.
Evidence: 412 (Please everyone LINK their evidence so it's that much easier to find it back!!!)
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

Target: Lucky
Accuser: Wanderer
Rationale: Wtf am I gonna find on a lurker that doesn't comment on the game? Can we just go after actives already :/
Evidence: There is none
YEA (0): people who voted yea here.
NAY (0): people who voted nay here.

And the 3rd target would be me. Have fun filling one out for me but I won't be responding to stuff I've already responded to. If a lot of people still think I'm scum then please just shoot me so we can get that crap out of the way for good.

[Wanderer-nl]

Ok that helps, thanks.
But don't expect me to fill out nice referendum-thingies on them because I just can't. If you wanna shoot a lurker, just go ahead, but I like you, I think you're good, and I'd like to weed out an active scum or 2 before you accidentally shoot a lurking town and die.

[Wanderer-nl]

The goons first so nacho lives after the shot, the vengefuls later because then it'll be harder for mafia to assign a gun to someone because associations we have in the thread.

[Wanderer-nl]

Funny how lucky gets talking when he's one of two options being shot, and also one of those 2 not being (carefully) townread by the GB.
How about shoot him now? I dunno, I think I would but that's the reason I don't want to be GB anyway.
Also, just got home from work and it's costing me extra energy to hit the correct keys to make words and stuff because I had wine and weed. Anyway, this is my first, drunk/stonedhonest, response to this communication of yours so take it as you will.
I been reading at work, but I hate posting mobile because when I hit <space> it changes what I typed to some defined word and I hate that and I tunred it off but apparently there is a different, unchangeable, keyboard for browser so that sucks. Anyway, will reread when I sober up some so good night and see you soon.

[Wanderer-nl]

This is surprisingly correctly typed

[Wanderer-nl]

Hey nacho, here is my okay to shoot enomis.

(I'm drunk/stoned so don't expect me to come with content any time soon)

[Wanderer-nl]

Apathy has struck. I request a shot very soon.

[Wanderer-nl]

How am I still not shot?!

i don't know why but this sentence points to me as scum.

I felt it was more from town, so I like a shot on you even more now.

[Wanderer-nl]

Yea red i get you. I didn't expect this game to have no votes. I thought it would be voting in addition to gun. So it's like 2 person off every.
Now it's 18 person, 2 week deadline, no lynching, it just sucks. I am pretty much waiting for my gunbearer turn, if i get it.

Feels forced and ingenuine.

I just saw the Victor's 455. Let's shoot Victor.

That did look like a scumslip and a lot can be said about it in hindsight, I'll stay away from this one.

THINGS ALL PLAYERS SHOULD BE DOING:
Comment on Lucky getting shot after the weekend. Do you agree with this shot?
Vote on the referendums in 466. If you have an additional case/comment on your vote, please post using the format to make linking easier.
If your name is: West, millar, Perpetual Nonsense, or enomis, please post more/make more of an effort to engage with the readslist in 462 so that I can get a more comprehensive read on you. If you are on the scumlist and my read on you is incorrect, please also make more of an effort to interact with me and talk about my reads.

1) I don't mind the shot. Null read on him. I prefer Vic.
2) I think victor is scum, maxwell and wanderer is town. Red should be town too.

lucky seems town to me actually, and Victor flipped town as well.

I think your readlist makes sense. Seems good.

You should respond in more detail if you're really town.

Also this:

How am I still not shot?!

i don't know why but this sentence points to me as scum.

I felt it was more from town, so I like a shot on you even more now.

Why would mafia put attention on themselves like that?

Now enomis mentioned a possible townread on RC as well. Now here's what I think; if RC really thinks I'm as scummy as he's portraying me in some parts of his wallposts, then I wonder why he would (unintentionally?) hide it inside a wall. Why not make a referendum-style post about me with

his

reasons for scumreading me? It makes me feel his scumread on me is forced; he knows it's wrong so he doesn't really want to accuse me himself.

[Wanderer-nl]

Battery died while writing up this post, blagh.

I'm lazy and going to sleep soon so whatever. Wanderer, I disagree with that first quote in your post about enomis seeming forced. What do you believe he was trying to accomplish with it, though? Do you think he was trying to buddy RC?

At the end of the post you seem to scumread RC as well, so... do you think they're a team or do you think one of them is buddying? If so, which one?

It just felt fake to me, but that might be because I'm stuck in a scumread on enomis, and I was mostly pointing to the last part of that sentence where enomis talks about being GB, if he gets the gun (as some sort of afterthought) I just felt like enomis knows he's not going to get a gun this game.

@enomis: I'm not scumreading you because we have different reads/opinions. I'm scumreading you because you were scumreading me, questioning me, and then all of a sudden you didn't feel like talking about it with me anymore and then you just started calling me town without any explanation at all.
And what I mean about RC: catch-up post or not, they're still walls, and it's generally known that people usually just skim over those. If RC really believes I'm scum and wants me shot, he should fill out a referendum-thingy, or at least make a seperate post on me to make his thoughts clear. If I'm really scum, he's letting me off the hook by not actually accusing me.

@RC: Ok, so the GB makes a couple of those referendum-thingies and it turns out you don't agree with the rationale but agree with the scumread? Didn't nacho say to fill out a new referendum in that case? And posts are being made anyway, I don't really see much of a difference between making a regular post where one accuses another, or a referendum-stye post. We still have to make our thoughts clear to the GB, and it would be very helpful if everybody can place their accusations more clearly, so not inside a wallpost with a tl;dr.
And you yourself said in you last wall that the game is long and boring and your posts might be too. So you are aware of that at least.

@Max & RC: I felt nacho went for Victor because of the info and not necessarily because he was nacho's biggest scumread.

I liked 556 by Heartless. Don't have a strong opinion on Heartless, but the way they come accross feels like they aren't bothered by how they're looking to other players and that seems town to me. I strongly believe RC and Heartless can't be scum together.

I would like an enomis-shot, I can get behind a Julien-shot too but I have to be honest, I didn't read up on Julien I just remember he looks scummy so call it sheeping for now, RC, not sure yet, I can see him as a scumpartner for enomis for some reason but that's mostly just gut. I'm behind a jeanne-shot and PN-shot as well, and while I'd like to find active scum first, we can't wait too long with shooting actual scum and give lurkers a free pass.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Wanderer:

I rethought my view on you. Plus nacho's townread on you. Plus my early townread on you.

Town:

(=ↀωↀ=)
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

The cat is you btw.

That still doesn't explain what it was that changed your mind.

[Wanderer-nl]

I stopped reading after 'go fuck yourself'
I'm with heartless and RC, fucking make your damn shot!
I'll see the pm from the mod when the shot has happened. Cya.

Btw: shoot enomis or something.

[Wanderer-nl]

Sorry TTH, that was inappropriate.

Go fuck yourself Antihero.

There you go.

Anyway, considering you have the most posts of any living player, it may shock you to hear that your

not

one of the people I wish to hear more from before I move the game on. So if you wish to prodge until I use my shot, feel free to.

I have to shoot within two weeks of getting the gun, and I have had it for less than 48 hours (so short some people haven't even posted since I got the gun) so I don't feel remotely guilty about not rushing to take my shot.

Sure, give scum more time to come up with compelling cases or defenses.

Anyway, how about you check up on some reads on day 1 and ask us questions about that? Much of it appears to still stand, or getting sheeped. How do you feel about that? Who do you trust more? Who less? Actually, don't say who less, they might stop posting.
You can't just sit around waiting for us to feed you cases. The cases are here already. Not much has changed. Nacho shot you, you became the GB, and that's that. Nothing else happened, there was no night, there were no NK's to discuss. What do you want?

[Wanderer-nl]

At this point idc whether Victor shoots Vonflare or enomis.

[Wanderer-nl]

I think PN has started recently advocating a CB shot because maybe he thinks that will dissuade others from shooting him. However, in my mind, I'd kind of welcome PN attempting to shoot CB because it would remove an anti-town element and put the gun in good hands. That said, I'm happy with the gun in Victor's hands as well.

Are WE the only one who sees this as a scum slip?

I thought this could come from scum as much as town but after considering it more I decided that you, PN, are the anti-town element RC is talking about and he just meant that if you shot CB, the gun would move to CB and you would die. You're not really pro-town imo because of your lack of content.

[Wanderer-nl]

I still want PN to answer RC's question of what his point was. Really curious what you (PN) thought what the slip was exactly.

[Wanderer-nl]

WAIT

[Wanderer-nl]

nvm

[Wanderer-nl]

I desperately want an enomis-flip right now.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Pablito: personally I'm not sure about RC and that's why I want to see an enomis-flip. enomis about RC was 'could be town' so that's sort of keeping it open, while enomis has a townread on me which he STILL didn't explain. You don't just go from 'I don't feel like discussing this right now' to townreading someone. Something must have happened. And enomis should be able what exactly it was that made him change his mind on me because he was perfectly able to post a scumread on me. Just sheeping Nacho isn't gonna cut it for me. At least something Nacho said could be enough, just point it out.

I have no idea why Victor chose Pablito. I remember some questions raised regarding Pablito but mostly he's looked towny.
I have never played with Nacho, but the way he posted made me think he was very able. He asked good questions and considered all viewpoints. In the end he went with the shot that would give us the most info, as opposed to a target he felt was most scummy. And in return we barely looked back on any reads on Victor but kept pressing our day1 cases. Yes, me too. I'm tired now, just got home from a party where bbq and alcohol were involved, but I'll look into this shit when I'm sober and have time.

[Wanderer-nl]

I think Pab just said they are not posting their shootlist yet, lol.

Anyways, about Nacho's idea of a Do Not Shoot list... I just think it's a bad idea. Especially one made that early in the game. Nacho made that list with zero flips, so he had the least information out of any GBs. Declaring some people 'town forever' and just leaving it at that is lazy, and disregards later information, or flips, that could come up.

So what are your thoughts right now? You must not agree with those reads to be willing to whipe them off the table like that.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Maxwell: The people on the town-list are not to be shot too soon. All us on there are talkative and that will be more helpful later in the game than lurkers. And what no flips? Pablito was there and he flipped town so I don't know what you're talking about. Do you mean scum-flips? Well instead of talking about not trusting the townbloc how about finding actual scum? You have townreads on all those on the list except Heartless. Make your case on him then instead.

Day 1 I wanted to go for active. I have changed my mind about that. I want to go shoot lurkers. And I want everybody to make a list of the order in which they want the lurkers to be shot. I'll go make mine right now. Oh, this is in addition to the referendum, of which I hope Pablito can make a couple for us to respond to as well.

The lurkers are: millar, vonflare, Lucky, Feirei, Flubber, and Jeanne. Is there anyone else that should be added to this list? I have put people on the list that didn't post actual content, I'm not counting vonflare's readslist and his defense thereof because he hasn't done anything since then.

My order of preference to shoot (most to least): vonfalre - Lucky - millar - jeanne - Flubber - Feirei

[Wanderer-nl]

My order of preference to shoot (most to least): vonfalre - Lucky - millar - jeanne - Flubber - Feirei

Why is Flubber so far down on this list?

Mostly gut, really. I just rather see the 4 before him shot first right now.
What order would you prefer?

[Wanderer-nl]

@enomis: I don't see you as a real lurker because you do post your thoughts, whereas the others do not. And I was just talking about the (currently alive) lurkers. I was thinking of adding julien and PN inthere but they too sometimes make posts with actual thoughts.

[Wanderer-nl]

I don't want anyone to have a stroke. :c

DW, I know CPR.

[Wanderer-nl]

This does not sound like scumflubber and I know scumflubber a little.

[Wanderer-nl]

enomis actually shifted to become a townread for me. His questions to me earlier felt like he was misrepping me but after reevaluating it's probably misscummunication. He also didn't actually call me scum during that questioning so I don't know how I got there. Because he explained he had an early townread on me I'm now seeing his questioning as figuring me out instead of misrepping me.
CB has looked town to me from the start. I'm still not too sure about RC myself but I'm willing to put him on the do-no-shoot-soon list too.
Flubber reads town to me too but that's just a small meta-thing, I've played with scumFlubber and this doesn't look like it.

Most to least: CB, enomis, Flubber, RC.

[Wanderer-nl]

Whoops I'm due a prod I believe. Sorry guys.
Writing decent post now.

[Wanderer-nl]

Welcome Suzunne!

I liked how Suzunne came in with a big post and actively reading and responding to the game. I don't agree with everything but it shows she's willing to put in an effort and I always like that.
What she said about CB: I should read back on him to see how accurate Suzunne is actually, I hadn't noticed that. I'm not going to assume she is accurate because she has a slot I was scumreading.
It bothers me a little that her reads seem opposite of mine, so she hasn't really moved the slot to a townread for me, but I'll read back on CB to check.

I'm also annoyed that people are suddenly seeing a scum!enomis while when I was still scumreading him it wasn't supported. I won't scream town on enomis (my townread isn't that strong) but wtf guys?

@enomis: can you decode the rest of your early-game posts please?

[Wanderer-nl]

At the start CB posted some theories about how mafia might think/play. I don't think mafia will speculate about their strategy in the game, so that made CB look town to me. He also posts a lot of comments on other players' reads, and sharing thoughts is for me also town. I haven't read anything that bothered me in CB's iso, so for now my townread still stands.

@CB: you already answered why town would lurk this game, do you remember?

@Suzunne: who are your townreads besides Heartless?

[Wanderer-nl]

@CB: you wanted to know why I was townreading enomis now. Here it is. If you have any questions I'd like to hear them.

enomis actually shifted to become a townread for me. His questions to me earlier felt like he was misrepping me but after reevaluating it's probably misscummunication. He also didn't actually call me scum during that questioning so I don't know how I got there. Because he explained he had an early townread on me I'm now seeing his questioning as figuring me out instead of misrepping me.
CB has looked town to me from the start. I'm still not too sure about RC myself but I'm willing to put him on the do-no-shoot-soon list too.
Flubber reads town to me too but that's just a small meta-thing, I've played with scumFlubber and this doesn't look like it.

Most to least: CB, enomis, Flubber, RC.

I would like to move west9 to my do-not-shoot-soon list because I like how he doesn't fall for that big post from Suzunne just because it looks like she did work so must be town.

PEdit:
Nah nothing to edit.

[Wanderer-nl]

Suzunne, I'm really curious how you feel about my slot.

[Wanderer-nl]

I maybe have a scumread on PN but that's mostly their playingstyle, I'm not scumreading enomis and west right now. That's really all I have to say about your shortlist.

[Wanderer-nl]

Why didn't anyone take me seriously when I was suspecting enomis? West looks more and more town to me. I don't trust Suzunne yet. Titus, (hi, btw) I dunno, no real reads yet, keeps asking for opinions, too bad my meta is of an ongoing but I'm not comfortable with how Titus entered this game.
Shoot PN, don't shoot west (yet) and enomis, well I don't know anymore. He did fall awefully quiet when I stopped scumreading him so maybe now he feels safe enough to lurk again? enomis, again, translate your early-game posts for us.

[Wanderer-nl]

Pablito if you have such strong reads then fucking make your damn shot.

[Wanderer-nl]

Flubber, do you even know why heartless and I are currently pissed off at you?

I'd be pissed too if that had been directed at me. But ye, you can report it or let it go but lets not turn this game in a battlefield, thanks.

[Wanderer-nl]

I like that list actually.

[Wanderer-nl]

Vonflare: has done nothing since he made his list and got under pressure after that. My opinion hasn't changed since then so sure, shoot him.
PN: I can't make sense of that slot, sure, shoot this.
Maxwell: I'm lazy and don't want to do any work but I can see him being scum too, he can be shot.
enomis: do whatever you like to this slot.

And since Titus asked: you replaced into a slot that was barely active so that makes it hard to read. Looks like you are an improvement on that one so I like that so far. I don't have a read on you yet, for that I haven't seen enough of you. Could you tell us how you feel about the current town-pool of Heartless, CB, Red Coyote and myself?

[Wanderer-nl]

Pablito, I really, really appreciate the effort you put in while at least me, but some others too, started to get apathetic.

[Wanderer-nl]

I just skimmed Suzunne's iso and I think there are a lot of associations there. I think a PN-flip will help in determining Suzunne's allignment more. Not convinced of her allignment but I liked her 1007.

I have reason to believe Titus is scum, and maybe even vengeful, but I can't elaborate because ongoing. Have to go in a bit but maybe I'll find some motivation to do a meta-dive on her later today.

I haven't taken the time yet to look back on Maxwell, am planning to do that but for now here are the people I'd want shot right now: Vonflare, PN, Titus. Vonflare and Titus because of actual scumreads and PN because of associations, I'm not sure if I'm really scumreading PN or just don't like their playingstyle, but they have been talked about by many players so it will be good info nonetheless.

Will try to actually do something later.

[Wanderer-nl]

I read that in a grunting voice that you tend to hear with doom metal.

[Wanderer-nl]

Hahaha I feel so bad right now.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm sorry for the off topic earlier.
The weather was way too nice to spend at the computer so I haven't done anything yet to be able to contribute. Sorry about that. Tomorrow is also going to be busy.. I will be here for short amounts of time so any (concrete) questions directed at me I will try to answer as far as I can without having to spit through the entire thread. (If this is something to go v/la for please inform me and I'll do that next time.)

[Wanderer-nl]

@Heartless: I don't want to sound full of myself but I'm getting back to my earlier opinion that enomis was trying to scumpaint me and saw he couldn't win the argument against me and just gave up. If he really is town, he should address other people, like Suzunne has mentioned, not just me. And he hasn't. He also still not translated his other early game reads, and I already asked twice and was backed up by someone else (and I don't remember who it was and I cecked but couldn't find it as fast as I hoped so I gave up because wine and 43)


Sorry, missed this before.. (found it while looking for ^)

I'm also annoyed that people are suddenly seeing a scum!enomis while when I was still scumreading him it wasn't supported. I won't scream town on enomis (my townread isn't that strong) but wtf guys?

Why do you think he is town? You explained why you rescinded your scum read of him but you never explained your town read.

@CB: you already answered why town would lurk this game, do you remember?

Yep I remembered. I wanted to hear a new perceptive though.

Hm I thought I did explain..

enomis actually shifted to become a townread for me. His questions to me earlier felt like he was misrepping me but after reevaluating it's probably misscummunication. He also didn't actually call me scum during that questioning so I don't know how I got there. Because he explained he had an early townread on me I'm now seeing

his questioning as figuring me out instead of misrepping me

.
snipsnip

I thought he was trying to figure me out. (Just saw 891 in your iso so you already get it so it seems, but now you know)
Suzunne pointed out that enomis only really addressed me. I believe I was also really the only one to express a definite scumread on him. So that makes me go back leaning scum on him.

And ok. It felt more like making a push on someone to me than it felt like getting a new perspective. What is your Suzunne-read? (843 was a reply to 835 and the quote comes from Suzunne 826 and I would even appreciate short postlinks over quotes without name and postlink)

[Wanderer-nl]

Or someone who knows they're not on their team.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh that's awkward sentencing.
I meant that it can also point to Max knowing the slot is town because it isn't on his team. Back then I don't think there were any signs that he was going to be shot, and if Suzunne would evolve to a strong townread he'd have outed the correct read.

[Wanderer-nl]

I've gone over Maxwell's iso and the things that stood out to me most were his consistent townreading of me, his being null/town on enomis and his repeating that a millar-shot won't help us so shouldn't happen.
Looking at 325 I don't see leans/reads on dcl, Heartless, Lucky, Pablito, PN, RC, me and Flubber, Millar, Jeanne.
CB town, enomis null/town, Julien scum, Victor gut town, Vonflare null, West9 town motivated.

Other interactions I saw in the iso make me think that enomis can be scum with Max, dcl maybe, millar likely, and probably Vonflare.

millar is now Monkey
dcl is now Kari
Jeanne is now Titus
Julien is now Suzunne

I'm sure there's more to find but my cat distracted me by bringing a dead bird in the house so gonna take care of that now.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Vonflare: ok so that's your defense all in one post. I must say that it does look good from a superficial pov, but I can't help but wonder where the rest of your contribution is. I still stand by that you have not done anything but defend yourself or prodge, and now that it looks like you're getting shot you're finally able to make a case on someone. I'm not convinced yet, I want to see reads on other playeers. I want to know how you feel about the do-not-shoot list, how about the shortlist? Got a little more than 'agree' or 'don't agree' for us?

[Wanderer-nl]

What's wrong with a Vonflare shot?

[Wanderer-nl]

Modpost #1, sample role pm's. The info is right there.

[Wanderer-nl]

Wow has it been 9 days already? I remember him being prodded some time ago but he hasn't posted in a long time so I guess replacement should happen. I'd really like him to translate those early game posts, but maybe we can make sense of it ourselves. He used some sorft of cat-like shaped code for me and I have a cat avatar, but I'm not the best at interpreting that sort of stuff so maybe someone else has some ideas?

[Wanderer-nl]

While reading just want to rub it in your faces that so far, besides Maxwell (even though being pro shooting him I wasn't really scumreading him before he was suggested), my reads have been spot on.
Also, whoever was calling me scum for calling Flubber town should be shot. I'll look for that after I read everything.

[Wanderer-nl]

Sure, shoot ika. At least it will give clarity about the slot. I don't know how to sort it now enomis isn;'t here anymore to answer questions I had.
Other than that, I will probably need time to get back into this game. Find motivation to scumhunt and read things and think about this game. I don't really care anymore.

[Wanderer-nl]

Hi ika, welcome btw, what do you mean with my POE? You mean my shoot-list?
I was trying to figure enomis out, he looked scummy to me, then town, but then that got diminished by some other people's opinions and now I just don't know anymore. Since you can't know what he was thinking (arguably, if you're scum you could read his thoughts in the scum PT) you won't be able to answer my questions.
I started out convinced Titus was scum, she was suspicious of Vonflare and PN but I think she bussed. Maxwell expressed suspicion on those 2 as well and he flipped scum, so they were popular bussing scum. I'm still behind a Titus-shot.
Suzunne feels very apologetic this game and I don't know whether that's her normal style or that she's scum and apologizing for lying to us. Not sure how to feel about this slot, sometimes her posts feel town-motivated. As I said earlier; I support this shot because of associations.

Townreads are still Heartless and CB, too bad RC was so trigger happy. He was the one guy in the do not shoot list that I wasn't sure of so I was happy scum gave him the gun, but then he just had to go and shoot Flubber. Oh well, the good thing is that we seem to have a decent GB now that isn't afraid to take a shot.

I should look back on West because honestly I don't remember what I thought of him.

Others that I didn't mention are hard to read for me so don't have much to say about them right now. Or I forgot I dunno.

There are a lot of players and there are a lot of posts to read and my mind works slow in a way that I first have to let things 'work' in my mind before coherent thoughts are produced. So I might read something today and not think much of it, and then the next day suddenly realize something about it that either bothered me or that I liked a lot. And that's also why quickposting doesn't work for me.

[Wanderer-nl]

Will shoot: Titus, Lucky

Not shoot: Heartless, ika (at least for now), CB (but need to check up on some things), West (need to read back on him)

Not sure: Suzunne, West can be here as well, Kari

[Wanderer-nl]

@mod

and everyone: I'm V/LA because of a busy weekend.
I might be able to read back during work tonight but can't make guarantees.

[Wanderer-nl]

Haven't been able to read back (blame Stephen King) so nothing of interest to add.
I have a question for Titus though.

@Titus: Enomis is not the only one lurking, why him in particular?

[Wanderer-nl]

Haven't been able to read back (blame Stephen King) so nothing of interest to add.
I have a question for Titus though.

@Titus: Enomis is not the only one lurking, why him in particular?

Oh wait ika is now Enomis and ika isn't lurking so how come your read isn;t changing at all?

Sort of ebwop..

[Wanderer-nl]

Is it wrong to think Ika is town because Fromage had to replace out after an "issue" was resolved?

Is it wrong to think Ika is town because Fromage had to replace out after an "issue" was resolved?

I was actually thinking about that myself. The only issue I can think of if the slot it scum is that Fromage said something

really

inappropriate and offensive in the scum private topic. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would do something like that, though, and I think there would be a ban in order if that were the case. Otherwise, the only thing I can think of that requires force-replacement is some kind of compromised gamestate, which requires Fromage being town and learning something he shouldn't have. :S

I actually thought about these things too but I don't think it's fair to use this to figure out the game. I decided for myself to pretend fromage was never here.

[Wanderer-nl]

Reading iso's..

Titus: Has been for shooting Vonflare, Maxwell, PN, and Monkey. She's either bussing hard or she's right a lot. I wouldn't mind Suzunne shoot Titus because I'd rather see Titus carrying the gun, or die if she is scum. I'm having a hard time reading Titus, she feels scummy to me but maybe that's because she just don't care how she looks?

CB: I mostly skimmed his iso to be honest, and I'm still townreading him after that. I wouldn't want him shot today.

West: I feel his thoughts come from a town-prespective and I can't find anything that points to west being scum.

ika: I very much liked how he started off looking for townreads. I don't much like how his focus keeps being on Titus. I also thought it was a little off that he said he didn't mind being shot a couple of times. Not so sure how to feel about this slot still, so keeping it at null for now.

Heartless: This is a solid iso and I don't see scum in this slot.

Lucky: Didn't start doing anything until we had some consecutive scum-shots. He pointed to Monkey, had a 1v1 with Monkey, and then Monkey was shot and flipped scum. Not so sure about this slot anymore because of that. It might be scum-v-scum there but I'm not convinced of that. I'd like to hear other people's opinions on this. I don't know why he's so set on shooting Heartless.

Kari: Lots of RL-things making her unable to play/form reads. That's fine, but we're getting to that point where we really need everyone to talk. Kari barely responded to anything, never responded to shortlists. She did have Vonflare and PN as scumreads, but Vonflare was popular bussing buddy and I'm starting to think the same about PN. This slot should post more thoughts about current gamestate.


Shoot: Titus, ika, Lucky
Don't shoot (today): Heartless, CB, (West)
Not sure: Kari


@Suzunne: can you get a shortlist for us of 2-3 players out of which we can respond who we want shot most? Or did you not like that strategy and do you want to do things differently? How can we help you figuring out who to shoot?

@Lucky: Why Heartless? And there is 3 scum left, who else do you think is scum?

[Wanderer-nl]

GB is chosen, you can share your reads now Titus. I'm really curious who you think is ika's buddy.

[Wanderer-nl]

Strategically? What do you mean when you say that? RC is gone, did you mean Kari? Kari is very much afk and CB is town as far as I'm concerned. Maybe you could like look into his iso and ask him some questions or something to develop your read?
So now I'm a scumread, but you base it on 1440. There was still 2 scum before I asked you who ika's scumbuddy supposedly is, who did you suspect before me?
Maybe if you shared all your reasons/thoughts, responses to that can help you sort things out?
Come on Titus, don't just stand there and watching us shoot your buddies, do something!

[Wanderer-nl]

I mean that West 9 is a horrible choice to give a gun to considering I think he is on everyone's will shoot list. So I want to remove West 9 because everyone else is considering it.

I could ask Kari anything. They are not here. I am not spamming the thread full of questions that no one will read to appear town.

Yeah, Wanderer is posting caught for wrong reasons.

I am not worried because one of the best town hydras has the gun. You on the other hand seem desperate to get me shot.

What about CB? You're gonna do anything about that read?

[Wanderer-nl]

prod dodge

Perfect.

[Wanderer-nl]

That's 100 percent protown play. It should not matter Heartless's opinion in a game this small, we are all in the shoot pool. There is zero playing to the gunbearerer if he doesn't share reads until he is ready to shoot.

Honey. Sweetie. We all know Heartless is town. It would be nice though to have a GB who would actually ask stuff from us, if only a small shoot-pool.

[Wanderer-nl]

Let me know when you're ready, then I won't have to check this thread until then.

[Wanderer-nl]

Proddodging.

[Wanderer-nl]

So ika, suppose I get the gun like you want, who do you vote?

Can we get a prod on RC

This is really pushing it, Titus. I already told you RC died already.

[Wanderer-nl]

Yes, 2 already's. And I'm not sorry.

[Wanderer-nl]

And why is that?

[Wanderer-nl]

simple west: if i try to agure it she ends up looking better. im not going to agrue something thats going to make me loom like shit

I don't see this coming from a town-mindset. Town shouldn't care how they look.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm kind of done caring. Heartless seem to want to solve this amongst themselves.

[Wanderer-nl]

I'm gonna say West and CB.

[Wanderer-nl]

West pushed Vonflare hard day 1 and I don't think they were buddies when I look at how all that went down. Also his questioning of ika seemed townish to me.

[Wanderer-nl]

Suddenly getting all these wifom's and I'm going to check up on a couple of things.

[Wanderer-nl]

I like how West pushed scum early game, when it wasn't really necessary to do so. I feel like he's really trying to figure things out now.

[Wanderer-nl]

From that pool I'd shoot Titus first and then I'd have a hard think on West and CB because at least West is doing something but CB is just lurking right now and I'm not liking that much.

[Wanderer-nl]

I haven't been able to get a sure read on the enomis/fromage/ika-slot. enomis and I argued a little but later he explained he had an early townread on me (I'm also thinking the other code is for Heartless, look it up and look at the shapes, inside and outside the brackets, I dunno makes the most sense for me but maybe I'm wrong) and I started seeing him as town, but then enomis stopped posting and I got less sure of my read again. Thinking about this, I am willing to put ika on the do not shoot list. I like how he came into this game looking for townreads.

@CB: Besides west, titus and cb, it's Heartless (conftown), me (you townread me just now) and Kari. But we need 2 scum, and by your reads only Kari can be scum. What's up with that?

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh I didn't get that but it makes sense with you earlier 1398.

[Wanderer-nl]

Titus: how did you keep yourself shootable? Because you pushed several scum, and also your tunnel on enomis/ika-slot is still going so pretty sure that's not part of your gambit.

[Wanderer-nl]

Titus being the onl one to scumreading me is a little off imo. But I must say I don'really know anymore and I'm drunjk and stoned and almost sang karaoke (bar closed before song came up, phew)

[Wanderer-nl]

ika, who is scum with Titus?

[Wanderer-nl]

@West: if you're doubting between ika and Titus then I recommend shooting ika first. I'm either very wrong on Titus and she really is town, or I'm right and she's been playing horribly since she enterend which might point to her being vengeful.
Also, Heartless got the gun and they had West and Titus as their final scumreads, and West flipped town. Which for me strenghthens the thought that mafia hoped Heartless would should West or Titus. That might mean Titus isn't scum either. I'd rather go with the following shoot-order: ika - Kari - Titus - CB - me.

[Wanderer-nl]

I think I need to rethink that last post.. I mean about the vengeful-stuff, if we end up 1 town vs 1 vengeful, we lose, so if I'm right about Titus she should be shot today. I'm going in circles right now. But the rest of what I wrote still goes, so just think about that and maybe respond to it (@everyone)

[Wanderer-nl]

Ehm ika, then we still have 2 scum in Kari/Titus/CB..

[Wanderer-nl]

You name 3 townreads but 1 is confirmed as GB, the other is you, and I'm the 3rd. That really is just 1 townread you have. Who do you think is most likely to be scum between Titus, CB and Kari?

[Wanderer-nl]

It means that apparently wanting to shoot the scums is playing horribly...

No it stands out that so far everyone who has said they'd shoot X after being shot flipped scum. Thing is, dcl (Kari's slot) said this in one of her first posts, Titus said in constantly when she just replaced in, and ika keeps repeating he'll shoot Titus (although now he's changed to 'shoot Titus') And we only have 2 scum left.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh I should read the entire page next time because my last post makes no sense. I'm gonna start over from 1577.

ika to me sounds more like frustrated scum about to lose than town that doesn't care. Gets active once a shot is made but won't answer any questions and goes back to prod-dodging when others are being critical of him. Anti-town behaviour.

@CB: oh right I needed to get back to that. Having a hard time concentrating with this heat.. What I meant when I wrote that is that I thought maybe scum told Titus to play scummy so someone would shoot her. If she is vengeful, scum get control over who is the GB. But right now it's not beneficial for scum to get the last vengeful shot, they need town to get shot so scum doesn't lose numbers but we do.

@Titus: Well as you can read now you were wrong with what I meant.

@West: the order I want to see people shot is still ika - Kari - Titus - CB - me.

[Wanderer-nl]

So Kari, how do you feel about Titus tunnelling town just about her full run in this game?

[Wanderer-nl]

I have no idea how I'm going to find out who would be the vengeful. I can read back all I want but here's the thing: Kari barely has something of an iso and CB has looked town since early game. Kari is fairly defensive of Titus, but adds no substance to the game. CB never really had to worry because he was added to the townbloc. My gut says Kari is the vengeful, but I'm not sure.
So what do I pay attention to?

[Wanderer-nl]

I have plans for today so won't be able to do reading before tonight and it could be tomorrow.
Just perfect play Titus, you made town fall for your stupid gambit (do you even remember you got lynched due to a stupid town-gambit in WTF?) while scum kept calling you town all through it. I'm very annoyed and I'm happy I'm going out today so at least I can get rid of that frustration.

[Wanderer-nl]

Ok I just remembered how confused about this I am.

About the win condition. Since scum has no night kill, they have to eliminate every townie. The 'or nothing can prevent the same' would be when there's one townie alive and at least one vengeful alive, right? Also, is it a tie when there's just a townie and a vengeful mafia left, or would that be a maf win?

At least one person lives from any factions becomes the winning team.
EX: If game gets to a day phase with 1 town vs 1 scum. Its auto town win. If game gets to 1 town vs 1 vengeful scum. Its draw.

Good Day,
I have a mod announcement. the following rule applies in the game. I know it may raises questions on why there is a change now but this isn't a change. this should have been included in the setup detail by default but looks like we have missed this point. If anyone have questions or concerns related this. Please PM me directly.

thank you

> If the last living town player is gun-bearer, Mafia wins!!

2 town 2 mafia, of which 1 vengeful and 1 goon. If Titus shoots Vengeful, they both die and goon is left with town, if I understand it correctly this means a mafia-win. If Titus shoots the goon, she lives to shoot the vengeful, which means townwin. Shooting town = lose.

I'm looking into CB right now but wanted to check on this first to make sure it really matters who gets shot first, but sadly it does.

[Wanderer-nl]

No wait, there is no GB at all so town should win in that case, no?

[Wanderer-nl]

Titus, don't shoot yet.

[Wanderer-nl]

Nah if it didn't matter who you'd shoot the game would be over by now so we should definitely try to find the goon.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Titus: Yeah I just finished my post on CB but not sure if I want to post before CB and Kari posted. The tl;dr version of it is that I think Kari is vengeful so you should shoot CB.

mod if that's the case then it doesn't matter whether the goon or the vengeful gets shot today, as long as Titus hits scum?

[Wanderer-nl]

Something just hit me (besides me being an idiot sometimes).
Also, here's my post anyway.

From CB's 257:

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

and 632:

I think that mafia goon ideally would be throwing scum on unpushed targets...[/post]
So far CB fits this profile of goon a lot better. The thing is that dcl (Kari replaced into that slot) wasn't really all that cautious, she was actually pretty vocal until she found out Nacho was gonna take his time before making a shot (and then replaced out).
Just rechecked CB's most latest posts, and he doesn't address or mention Kari at all after lucky (he was the second-to-last vengeful). I think my gut is right. I also know I should trust my gut more. I'm thinking CB is trying to make us forget about Kari, which makes me believe scum want Kari to live because she's the last vengeful.

[Wanderer-nl]

Something just hit me (besides me being an idiot sometimes).
Also, here's my post anyway.

From CB's 257:

Also I now think Vonflare is unlikely to be the vengeful goon here. I think vengeful goons will probably play more cautiously here since their survival is the utmost importance and I don't think they would be the first one to come out with a read list on every single player in the game. That would be just be getting the unnecessary attention of every player.

and 632:

I think that mafia goon ideally would be throwing scum on unpushed targets...

So far CB fits this profile of goon a lot better. The thing is that dcl (Kari replaced into that slot) wasn't really all that cautious, she was actually pretty vocal until she found out Nacho was gonna take his time before making a shot (and then replaced out).
Just rechecked CB's most latest posts, and he doesn't address or mention Kari at all after lucky (he was the second-to-last vengeful). I think my gut is right. I also know I should trust my gut more. I'm thinking CB is trying to make us forget about Kari, which makes me believe scum want Kari to live because she's the last vengeful.

ebwop

[Wanderer-nl]

Yeah I missed something, I'm gonna stop thinking about this and make sure we find the goon. Safest option.

[Wanderer-nl]

Wanderer, why the fuck were you wanting to shoot the goon when vengeful was autowin? Arrrrghhh...

Because I was still not sure about the wincon and you could have also shot the actual vengeful I pointed out.
Why the fuck did you feel the need to gambit?

[Wanderer-nl]

Thanks for modding Arc and thanks for stepping in NM!

gg all.

[Wanderer-nl]

Because it worked Wanderer.


The only person who would shot me is ika and he does that every game so... If ika hadn't subbed in, it would have been perfect

Did you miss all my posts where I would shoot you? I mean, I may not have literally said I'd shoot you if I got the gun, but I had you as scum for a long enough time. Did you also miss where in the end Heartless put you on their shootlist, and only CB and Kari were defending you?

[Wanderer-nl]

Maybe Titus is upset I killed her in our last game together. Where she almost got lynched due to a TOWN gambit!

[Wanderer-nl]

Sorry that was uncalled for. I'm not blaming Titus for doing that, it was simply a joke.