New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[Ozgin]

/confirming, sorry for late.

[Ozgin]

We have a 33% chance of lynching scum straight off the bat.

This amuses me greatly.

Actually, there's

technically

a 28.57% to kill scum, as 3rd party isn't so much scum as they are anti-town. 33.33% chance to kill anti-town, yes. That is amusing.

What the literal hell...

Spoiler: ...

@dragon, scum tend to make generalizations.
..


It's page 3 House hasn't obvtowned yet. He's probably also scum.

VOTE: Skybird
Choo choo.

/confirmang
Early SPERM catches the EGG
Teeheee



VOTE: Skybird

I trust Cheetory.

How's it going, shmucks?

Suddenly, a train breaks out of nowhere!

"I trust Cheetory" = lol.

VOTE: Varsoon Let's make waves, shall we?

Also, I'M SO HAPPY TO BE IN ANOTHER GAME WITH SILVERWOLF.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin. Listen.
I'm a trustworthy guy.
Get on board the trust-me-train and get this skybird wagon out the muthafuckin station.

ALSO WHY AREN'T YOU HAPPY TO BE IN ANOTHER GAME WITH ME.
UGH.

I am happy to be in another game with you! I'll be happier when I derail your train that's only riding on the "trust me" tracks, because that shit don't fly with me.

[Ozgin]

@Ozgin, it's RVS break us out like I am trying or quit bitching.

Oh no, I am trying as well.

I think something is weird about the way Varsoon went about voting. Not that it was "RVS" or "pushing for a reaction" or something, no, "trusting Cheetory." That's just fishy.

I mean, I'm all for pressuring potential scums, but the whole, "I'm doing this because I trust Cheetory!" rubs me wrong (giggity).

[Ozgin]

Also <3 Boo. With a playerlist like this I'm hoping my usual melodramatic bullshit won't be a thing
Also also, you're feline-ish correct?
Cats are all about killing birds. Care to join this super duper awesome wagon on policy of sky being a bird?

P-Edit: I'm a trustworthy person Ozgin. Just look at me.
Look into my eyes o.o

Cheet, I have one games worth of meta on your under my belt, and it doesn't paint a pretty picture for you. I got my eyes on your eyes!

I also think Taly rubbed be wrong with the whole, "Why're you voting them? If you're serious, that is" reaction. It almost reads, "Why are you coming after my scum mate? You can't be serious!"

But I have trust issues because I have a broken home life and a bad history with women, so I'm probably just being paranoid.

[Ozgin]

Sky's question in 54 was quite frivolous. We haven't even seen House post yet, so making reads like yours in 61 and Varsoons follow-up of that in 62 strikes me a bit weird.

Speaking of your post 61 Cheetory

Why are you saying House is most likely scum, but you immediately place your vote on Skybird?

P-Edit

Ozgin, I'm a male. ._.

My bad history with women is unrelated to your gender, Taly. It's just a contributing factor to my inability to build and trust meaningful relationships with other human.

*Laughs*
*Cries*

[Ozgin]

Cheet, I have one games worth of meta on your under my belt, and it doesn't paint a pretty picture for you. I got my eyes on your eyes!

But Ozgin.
We've been through so much together.
How can you not trust me after all of the bonding we did in a scum PT!?!?

P-Edit: I think there's three atm.
Hoping for more, soon.

>How can you not trust me after all of the bonding we did in a scum PT!?!?
>trust me after all of the bonding we did in a scum PT
>all of the bonding we did in a scum PT
>bonding we did in a scum PT
>bonding in a scum
>bonding scum

Do you not realize how hard it's going to be for me not to be able to laugh and have fun at night with you in a QT? Being a citizen is lonely ;_;

@Silver - Same with you! I just can't imagine you as a

not scum

, and I don't object your wagon, I object the shady 3rd vote on your wagon, and feel it is grounds for a counterwagon. And of course my love for you is genuine! I'm not buddying you though, like I said,

Being a citizen is lonely ;_;

It's lonely, let's keep it that way. I can't be bogged down by all you sweethearts

P.S. - I just realized I'm still in the habit of making a wall of text and quotes out of every response. Shit.

EBWOP - Cheetory, I do have a better wagon. See your local votecount for information on how I can save time lynching scum for you!

[Ozgin]

Varsoon is doing the right thing.
Don't penalize him for it.

Even if we assume he's doing the right action, his reason for doing it is shady.

Like, donating to a charity is the right thing, but donating to a charity because you'll get laid by some upstanding goody-goody Christian girl who digs that kind of thing is bad.

Also, I feel like Taly is over-analyzing, kinda digging for evidence that might not be there. Does anyone know if this is normal per his meta?

[Ozgin]

@Taly - Read some posts, I'd say it's fair to say you make a lot of long posts, but not so much using post numbers and such early game. It's moderately accurate to the little bit I've read, but meh, I still don't

like

it.

I'm okay with pressure on House too, but I'm more okay with getting out of RVS.

[Ozgin]

Page five and House hasn't obvtowned yet.
Guys he's practically scumclaiming.

He could also be sleeping, working, eating, visiting a relative, visiting a neighbor, playing a video game, kidnapped, sold into slavery, or dead.

But nah, he's probably just scumtelling.

[Ozgin]

[/unvote] I need to evaluate this House wagon, because a four vote spring-up is strange, now that you mention it.

[Ozgin]

UNVOTE: I fail at tags, and life.

[Ozgin]

I'm all good with putting some pressure on House.

VOTE: House

I wanna see House post some. He's kinda supposed to be around methinks.
He'll probably make a post that make half the players gain a whiplash.

VOTE: House

VOTE: House
Avatar easy to confuse with mod's.
Also probs scum.

OK so House hasn't even signed on yet since his first confirm post and these are the three votes I like the least on that wagon. I think Skybird did it to take pressure off of her wagon and that can come from either alignment.

Kitz expecting House to be here and saying he should be here is strange but she can be kind of strange. Kind of null on this.

lala-Yeah, jumping on the wagon here seems opportunistic and using and RVS reason to do so is meh, not a big fan.

I like Taly and Ozgin's unvotes here.

VOTE: la la duckie

See, it's funny, I'm using a Google Excel sheet to organize my reads based on the null hypothesis and alternate hypothesis:

Ho: Player = Innocent
Ha: Player = Not Innocent

Now, in my sheet, I have similar reads for lala and Kitz.

What disturbed me about the wagon was how

fast

it felt like it sprung up, but Egg got on House in RVS and Taly was on second only to unvote when the wagon flashed. Skybird hopped on it third, and what makes me inclined to against Kitz more than lala is the fact that it was literally 3 minutes after Sky, and that irks me. Then lala follows suit and votes 3 minutes after Kitz. I think what might tip the scale towards lala is that Kitz was prodding for posts (which is stupid because activity is not indicative of alignment this early on), and lala's reason is really stupid, some gibberish about avatars and a random fos.

I'm inclined to agree with Silverwold, VOTE: laladuck.

PEDIT:

@Cheetory, why don't you like my unvote?
@lala - Instead of apathetically shrugging off votes against you, why not do me a favor - Tell me why you think House is probably scum.

PEDIT2: @Boon - Stop perpetuating RVS and make reads, or don't vote.

[Ozgin]

EBWOP:

What makes me more inclined against

Kitz and lala more than others***

, I don't suspect Kitz more than Lala, they're almost identical except for the reasons for their votes.

[Ozgin]

Unvotes are showy.
Like "oo man look at how much I'm not voting for this person anymore" looks like you're trying to show everyone something rather than just voting someone new and being like "I like this vote better".

Egg got on House

This made me laugh.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

You stop that, you stop that right the fuck now. xD

[Ozgin]

EBWOP: Also, I unvoted because I wasn't sure where to move my vote to, but I figured it'd be hypocritical of me to vote someone near RVS with a pseudo-shitty read right before I made reads and called other peoples' votes pseudo-shitty, you know?

I was also working on my reads sheet.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin, I wouldn't consider 3 votes on someone in a 21 player game to be 'fast'.
Especially this early in the game.
Furthermore, I don't understand the suspicion you were throwing onto my slot.

:/

You don't think 3 votes in 6 minutes is fast? I mean, they had to have thought and concluded upon the previous votes, then typed out their vote and their shitty reasons (no offense guys) in only 3 minutes each (referring to Kitz and lala)?

It doesn't matter how early in the game we are,

posting speed

is independent of

time of post

.

I didn't like that you mindlessly sheep'd Cheetory because you "trust" him. It was a shitty reason, even in RVS. At least I vaguely had a reason. Didn't you read my posts regarding you?

[Ozgin]

I just realized that "posting speed is independent of time of post" is stupid and inaccurate.

What I meant is that the fact that we're early in the game doesn't lessen the fact that 3 votes in 6 minutes (that's a vote for every 2 minutes) is really fucking quick.

[Ozgin]

Lala, I concede that he

did

post in a Mini-Game, but it's still possible that he only had time to make one post and, rather than delve into a fiery large normal, decided to just plonk it down on a mini game?

Furthermore, if your alternate reason is "he's dangerous as scum," that's worse. Imagine you have a baby. That baby

could

grow up to be a terrorist. And

terrorists are dangerous

. By your logic, you'd be inclined to murder your baby because he could become dangerous.

[Ozgin]

Kitz, you're missing the point of my analogy if you think I'm trying to scare her into retracting her vote or changing her mind. My point is that her logic is flawed, and your misrepresentation of my post only furthers my scumread of you.

[Ozgin]

Lala, I concede that he

did

post in a Mini-Game, but it's still possible that he only had time to make one post and, rather than delve into a fiery large normal, decided to just plonk it down on a mini game?

Furthermore, if your alternate reason is "he's dangerous as scum," that's worse. Imagine you have a baby. That baby

could

grow up to be a terrorist. And

terrorists are dangerous

. By your logic, you'd be inclined to murder your baby because he could become dangerous.

This type of language makes me want to lynch you. It's useless, inflammatory and really makes me not want to play.

@Titus: This type of language? What the hell, are you scared of rhetoric? Are you afraid of me putting holes in lala's logic by demonstrating the same logic on an extreme?


I don't think that, in a game based on language and logic, tearing apart someone's shitty logic is useless, nor is it inflammatory. And frankly, my dear, I couldn't give a damn less if you don't want to play.

[Ozgin]

It takes <1 min to come and RV. Hmmmmmmm.

Why would he come in and RV then leave? What if he'd rather stick around to defend his points?

[Ozgin]

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

[Ozgin]

I've ever been*

Damnit Ozgin, your dyslexia is showing.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin:
Three votes in 6 minutes is fast for a smaller game. This is the first 10 pages in a 21 player game. Go look at other 21 player games, especially with multiball setups.
I agree that poor reasons for voting are poor.
However, my reasons for following Cheetory on the wagon were trust in both Cheetory

as well as

trust in Cheetory's approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player.
If you think there's better reasons for joining into a wagon on early D1, propose them.
No one's done anything incriminating enough to warrant an actual-factual town-whole wagon.
In fact, every wagon will likely be a bit scum-sided given our teams.
So calling out people on a 3-person wagon is derisive and hurts game momentum.
Furthermore, your post against me tries to scumpaint me over lack of your own understanding. Just because you don't comprehend a motive or a post does not make the poster scum--it only speaks to your own perception. This forces me into assuming one of two things; You lack perception or you are trying to leverage a lynch onto me. I'd rather assume you're a good player. So, I've got to figure that you're aligned differently than I am or you're bad at the game.
So, that's why I called you out. I wanna see your feathers get a bit ruffled here. I want to see if you'll either prove to have made a mistake in reading me or if you'll prove to be someone that town needs to lynch.

P-EDIT:
I'm down for an Ozgin wagon~
VOTE: Ozgin

-sigh-

Read my 156, where I told explicitly stated that my reads were shitty.

Then read your 62 where you mention literally nothing about "trust in both Cheetory

as well as

trust in Cheetory's approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player.," then read your 136 where you say that you don't think the pressure is working, which contradicts that you trust the approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player. And I believe you only say that you don't think the pressure is working on House because you sense that the town isn't receiving the House wagon very well, and as scum you want to avoid that level of conflict.

As far as Titus' vote on me, her feelings seem to be hurt. . Whatever, I don't have time for crying over rhetoric, I have to go to bed so I can scumhunt while I'm awake tomorrow.

PEDIT: OH my God, here we go:

@Varsoon, I refer to myself as what I am, if I'm a citizen I'm inclined to say citizen. What a fucking mute point you generate here.
@SilverWolf, Yeah, it was a dark analogy, but it was an extreme hypothetical designed to test lala's logic. Just because it's an unpleasant scenario to think about does not degrade the fact that lala's logic fails in a situation where the same logic would be applied. I'm sorry if you're a bit offended, but it's merely a hypothetical and should be treated as such.
@Cheetory, How isn't it? I think you're just riding the popular opinion that it's unpleasant, not that it doesn't do what it's designed to.

PEDIT2:
@Varsoon, Wouldn't the proper way to go about it say, "To those on the wagon, please say why you're on it?"

PEDIT3:
@Titus, It was completely prompted but okay. I think your naked vote and you playing to your emotions rather than your senses is worse than a little dark analogy.

[Ozgin]

I like how this wagon began right before I went to bed, I'm glad I double-checked while I was updating my reads chart.

Good night everybody, this is a battle I'll fight tomorrow (which is good because maybe we'll hear from House and others who have yet to post substantial information!).

@SilverWolf - Does it matter that I'm "claiming" Citizen? Even if I were a town PR, I sure as hell wouldn't out as such. Citizen is my way of claiming that I'm town, if that's what you're asking.

[Ozgin]

Meh, I'm feeling scumhunty tonight. I'm trying to change up my town game, because apparently when I was scum in 180 and posted long and thought-out reads I was read as town, so I figure that I might as well do the same thing when I'm actually town. My win-rate as town is literally 0%, and my win-rate for scum is literally 100%. I'd like to change that.

[Ozgin]

Fair enough, but I'd argue that, even though he has experience as scum,

in any given game, he is given a blank slate to make of it as he will, so to kill him because he might end up being scum is stupid logic by itself.

And I like how this all turned into a big distraction from that point - lala's reason was literally just because he "might" be scum. Any one of us "might" be scum at this point, we don't fucking have any lynches/flips/solid evidence otherwise.

@Titus - That makes no sense, how is my Citizen "claim" shit, and how am I being dismissive about it? And did I say that it's the default was of claiming town? No. I said it's

my

way.

I know what I said, and I meant it.

[Ozgin]

Nope, I'm redirecting attention onto you.
Why are you now referring to your reads as 'town' when you were adamant to adhere to 'citizen' earlier?

I read the things you told me to read, but I disagree with your points.
I'm going to go ahead and restate--no wagon on lynch will be 100% town.
This is a 14-3-3-1 setup.

Your interaction with Titus is a real downer and I'mma have to side with Titus here.

It's D1, first 10 pages.
You've gotta grab onto the little footholds and build momentum.
Chip at the armor
All that noise.

En Garde.

The fact that no wagon on lynch will be 100% town isn't being disputed. You're trying to shift the point of your argument. You're moving the goalposts.

My point is that not only did I retract my vote and state that it was a shitty read, but your claim that you "trusted Cheetory's approach" of blah blah blah is bullshit because you never stated that, and even if it's true I couldn't have known that because

you never stated that.

In fact, my second point is that your second post seemingly contradicts that you support building a wagon on someone to build pressure, because you're

against

the House wagon, which was allegedly started because people want to "pressure House" and "get a response from House."

I agree that you need momentum, but no vote should be truly random. That's just bad form. You want momentum or footholds? You read the little discrepancies between peoples' posts and the facts of the game, or between peoples' reasons and votes. That's how you build a good wagon on someone, that's how you make sense of the chaos that is RVS (in my humble opinion).

[Ozgin]

EBWOP - I referred to myself as "town" when discussing my winrate because I wasn't referring to myself in this particular game, I was referring to myself in every game (I've been VT, Townie, and Citizen all), and so I felt it appropriate to use "town" when discussing my winrate.

[Ozgin]

Also, my last point on the Citizen thing and then I'm really going to bed, but I have myself written as citizen in my excel sheet (I have myself there because I just typed the list as the OP has it, and then I didn't feel like changing it after I already put my name in it, so I just threw down "Citizen, given" on my chart, and I've been using it as reference all game. Of course I'm gonna say "Citizen" when talking about myself in this game.

PEdit: Sorry Wolfie, I'm getting a little emotionally evolved and I need to pull that out of my thoughts here. I don't get emotional at all when I'm scum, and that's what you saw the most of with me in 180, so yeah of course you're not used to it. But that statement doesn't mean shit, my self-meta is useless and I'll leave you to your own conclusions.

[Ozgin]

I agree on the end of the debate about it, it's silly.

I suppose I could concede the point that you meant or implied you trusted his pressure, but the statement "I trust Cheetory" just sounds empty, hollow, and meaningless.

And yeah, I was against the House wagon for that reason too, among other things (such as it being silly to complain about someone's lack of posting when there's a massive amount of things he can be doing in meatworld preventing him from doing so).

[Ozgin]

Spoiler: My final word on my analogy

I agree with you Ozgin about the House wagon. I didn't like it. It seemed too easy. How can you pressure someone who isn't even here playing? The he's posting elsewhere is crap if he only posted one post. I also kind of agree with you that Titus seems off. I'm going to have to investigate there some. It's just gut for now but she doesn't usually pull the I don't want to play stuff. I agree with her about your Citizen talk. That should really stop.

You haven't seen some of the things I have seen. Sometimes they do get under my skin. My husband and I are talking about having kids. Hearing that stuff about killing your kids just absolutely riled me and yes, those types of things make mafia unenjoyable generally. There is a line. I call people out when they cross it. I'm shocked that you think you're the only one who can be bothered by things. Normally, I would take that as a scum indicator but knowing you well enough your game seems to be very Wolf focused as either alignment. (Mine tends to be that way too.)

I agree with you Ozgin about the House wagon. I didn't like it. It seemed too easy. How can you pressure someone who isn't even here playing? The he's posting elsewhere is crap if he only posted one post. I also kind of agree with you that Titus seems off. I'm going to have to investigate there some. It's just gut for now but she doesn't usually pull the I don't want to play stuff. I agree with her about your Citizen talk. That should really stop.

You haven't seen some of the things I have seen. Sometimes they do get under my skin. My husband and I are talking about having kids. Hearing that stuff about killing your kids just absolutely riled me and yes, those types of things make mafia unenjoyable generally. There is a line. I call people out when they cross it. I'm shocked that you think you're the only one who can be bothered by things. Normally, I would take that as a scum indicator but knowing you well enough your game seems to be very Wolf focused as either alignment. (Mine tends to be that way too.)

[non-aligment personal, uncomfortable stuff start] I'm sorry Titus. I have a child and have lost several. It was offensive to me but I should of thought of what you and others might be going through as well. I do tend to be self-centered when I play. I'm also having trouble focusing and keeping up with the pace of this game. I wish you luck in your journey to motherhood. [non-alignment personal, uncomfortable stuff end]

Having said the above, I don't think Oz was trying to upset us mothers or potential mothers.

I understand I may have offended you, Titus. And you as well, Wolf. That wasn't my intention, as SilverWolf said. The point of the analogy was not to be explicitly dark or against young mothers or potential mothers. My sister is pregnant and due in only a little over 100 days. The point of my analogy was to show the flaws in lala's logic. It may have been a stretch, or a tad extreme, but I felt the raw logic (if you were following his logic) should have applied, and it didn't.

I'm sorry if I offended you, Titus, but that is a terrible reason to push a wagon on me.

Laladucks on Page 5 is engaging in pointless banter and ignoring everything else. Not a fan. Oh shit. Then joins the random pop up House wagon with no apparent reason.

[/unvote] I need to evaluate this House wagon, because a four vote spring-up is strange, now that you mention it.

Can you give me a reason why this would make House town?

So I don't think the wagon breaking out on House makes him town, I just don't think it's a fruitful or valuable wagon. If House is scum and I'm derailing a scum wagon, then fuck me, I'm sorry. But my point is that the people on the wagon were just chirping random votes out, or votes with shitty reasons.

So tso claims to be town off the bad and I vote for it in random voting and my reasoning is bad.

Ozgin claims to be a citizen and he's scum.

Not following the logic here. Though I certainly agree that claiming he was a citizen was unnecessary and odd.

Claiming town is whatever, people do it. Claiming a VT role is NOT something that happens every day is really anti-town. He said this was how he always describes town. No, if that was the case, he'd say he's a townie or town like TSO did.

See Titus, if this is the

real

reason you're pushing a wagon on me, then your point is, frankly, dumb. I explained myself over and over as to why I used the terminology of "Citizen." I'm not going to argue this point. If that's the point that gets me lynched, then scum will have an easy game. I'm not denying nor confirming that I have a power role, as I have said before. I know I've said this before because Egg picked up on it as well.

So can you tell me why you're voting me because of my word choice instead of lala because of her shitty tack-on to the House wagon?

He straight up said that if he's a power role, he'd say the same thing.

Thank God, someone who was actually reading my posts.

@Egg, I was Wolf and Dragonspawn's IC on another site. I'll sometimes refer to Dragonspawn as Avatar (because that's what his name was on that site). Most of them kinda followed me over here. I kinda wanted to have a legacy of decent players in case I had to leave mafiascum. You know, leave the community better than I found it type deal.

Again, if he said "townie" I'd buy it. No one says, I'm a

vanilla townie

out of the blue. Word choice is everything.

I didn't say vanilla townie, I said Citizen. Stop misrepresenting my posts. And as I just said, I'm not going to argue my fucking word choice, I've done it enough already and it's distracting everyone from the real points (like laladuck's scummy play).

11 freakin' pages, people?

Screw that. This game starts on page 11.

I think.

House.

If there is anyone.

Anyone.

Who should read these 11 pages.

It's you.

[Ozgin]

Kitz what do you think about Ozgin, Lala, and Titus?

Ozgin seems to cut the wrong weeds with his selective charisma. But other than that, I think it's suspicious the way he makes a scene about "Citizen" this early. In fact if that's the reality, Scum just got -1 out of "process of elemination" list for PR and the opposing scum.
Citizen are supposed to be the meatshields, in a sense.

Lala is weird, but I find this odd.

Spoiler:

VOTE: House
Avatar easy to confuse with mod's.
Also probs scum.

Okay, but I'm gonna keep my vote there until he arrives ^~^

Eh, why not?

VOTE: Ozgin

Changes votes. It's probably just RVS, but who knows.

hink Ozgin is actually tryhard town despite his weird little inconsistencies mentioned while House is obvscum - how about we lynch him?
VOTE: House

Goes back to House.

House, you have to read those 11 pages sometime, they're filled with *majestic sparkly sorcery*

This is the only response after House comes back. Later on, doesn't call out on the single-post, keeps the vote and doesn't vote another.

Titus is a null-lean with a slight town influence regarding the argument of Citizen claim by Ozgin, that she thinks he's scum.
However, I'd like to poke on the statement of "I expect everyone to be scumhunting."
The stance on House is also a bit questioning.

Kitz, I'm not the one making a scene about it. If that's a scummy play in your opinion, you're leaning the wrong way on the wrong person.

@Titus:

@Ozgin, Just because you attempt to discredit me does not make my reason for voting you a misrep.

I'm not discrediting you. You literally said that I called myself a vanilla townie, and that's not true. It's a literal misrepresentation of my terminology, which you seem to be obsessed with.

As for the shot (I'm assuming meaning shit) reasons on my push for lala, can you tell me why they're shit? Or are you just gonna throw a meaningless opinion with no supporting evidence?

[Ozgin]

@Varsoon - Lala hasn't addressed any point against him, he sort of just sarcastically shrugs off votes on him like, "Oh haha whatever another vote on me, look how much I don't care!" Then, his reason for being on the House wagon was literal shit (House/Wake similar Avvys, and because "House is probably scum"), which he hasn't elaborated on at all even though I asked him.

@Egg - You asked for a reason why my point would make House town. My answer is that it wouldn't. I don't know that House is town, but there's hardly any evidence at all against him. There's no reason to believe he isn't town, because he's made a whopping two posts (And at the time I was making my argument, one). I'm just saying that the House wagon itself is weird, and the people on it are worth looking into. You and Taly were on it in RVS, but the other 3 were the ones I was concerned about.

@Cheetory - A ProlapsedBrain vote? Whaaa?

[Ozgin]

You said yourself that you usually don't claim Cit but generic townie.

I never said any such thing. Are you illiterate? You can't seem to properly read my posts.

[Ozgin]

@Cheet - Hold on, give me a second, that's a biggun'.

[Ozgin]

"I trust Cheetory" = lol.

VOTE: Varsoon Let's make waves, shall we?

I'm a little wary that you didn't probe to try and find out Varsoon's intentions at all with a question or something to accompany this vote. I like the seriousness of this vote so early, but I dislike that it looks like you're not actually trying to sort what Varsoon is doing here. I'm leaning that this is lazy over scummy, but I'd like you to talk at me a little bit about what was going through your head here.

The followup on this where you elaborate with Titus is okay, but the focus seems a lot more oriented towards explaining yourself and seems almost self-centered rather than actually interested in progressing the gamestate or sorting Varsoon.

So I made that vote and explained the vote in response to Titus (as you noted). I didn't dig into Varsoon because I'd rather have seen his reaction before asking questions. If he would have quoted me and said, "Oh, I meant that I trust Cheetory's plan to pressure scum." No, he didn't mention anything to the degree until he put his vote on me, and even then he said it was pretty much implied, and that it was my fault for not picking up on it.

I probably could have/would have/should have prodded him for answers, but I'd prefer a reaction first so I know what kind of person I'm dealing with.

But I have trust issues because I have a broken home life and a bad history with women, so I'm probably just being paranoid.

The hedging here is a littttttle scummy.

Ignoring citizen-claim-stuff for now.

The unvote on Varsoon just because he thinks the Housewagon is sketchy is weird. I feel like him finding the Housewagon sketchy shouldn't invalidate his vote so I don't understand why the unvote is at all necessary.

Because Varsoon hadn't reacted or replied at all, and I thought it'd be more worth-while to use my vote on someone that I had a better case on. I wanted to get out of the RVS, and my lone vote on the non-responsive looked like just that.

Also, could you explain the hedging thing to me? That whole post about trust issues and blah blah blah was pretty much a joke, hence my use of .

what makes me inclined to against Kitz more than lala is the fact that it was literally 3 minutes after Sky, and that irks me.

Why is this scummy?

In multiball with daytalk, I feel like Sky could have posted in a scum QT something like, "Hey lets go after House" and Kitz (and/or lala) could have been like, "K" and then just hopped on for no reason.

@lala - Instead of apathetically shrugging off votes against you, why not do me a favor - Tell me why you think House is probably scum.

I guess I like that he's at least asking lala a question, even if said question seems pretty... empty. Heh. I guess it does eventually go somewhere so maybe I'm just feeling nitpicky atm.

Well that's the only thing I can ask lala about at that point - The vote post had a vote, some dribble about avatars, and him claiming House is probscum with only one post.

I figured it'd be hypocritical of me to vote someone near RVS with a pseudo-shitty read right before I made reads and called other peoples' votes pseudo-shitty, you know?

Explain this more clearly please.

So my vote was placed in (and seemed like a part of) the RVS phase, and my point about "Trusting Cheetory" was not that great, given that it was RVS. As I was going through and calling out people on their "reads" (Like Lala's shitty point on House), I felt like my point on Varsoon wasn't that great, especially given that my read on Lala was much stronger.

Lala, I concede that he did post in a Mini-Game, but it's still possible that he only had time to make one post and, rather than delve into a fiery large normal, decided to just plonk it down on a mini game?

@Titus: This type of language? What the hell, are you scared of rhetoric? Are you afraid of me putting holes in lala's logic by demonstrating the same logic on an extreme?

I think it's a little scummy that you seem to care more about poking holes in lala's logic than it seems you do about actually sorting her. Why is scumlala more likely to vote House for those reasons than townlala?

Well lala's response to my question was pretty much, "Oh because I'm scared of him, he might be bad later on, who knows?" Furthermore, I know that House is a scary player,

both in town and scum.

He could be a scum just as scared of townHouse (hehe, townhouse) or opposing-team scumHouse.

@Cheetory, How isn't it? I think you're just riding the popular opinion that it's unpleasant, not that it doesn't do what it's designed to.

Why were you so quick to sling shit at me for making a joke comment on an analogy?

Because I was admittedly pissed off about people getting angry at my analogy, and I felt that it wasn't that inaccurate of one to boot. It was probably a little lash-out, but I still don't think my analogy (aside from it's apparently offensive nature) was that bad.

Meh, I'm feeling scumhunty tonight. I'm trying to change up my town game, because apparently when I was scum in 180 and posted long and thought-out reads I was read as town, so I figure that I might as well do the same thing when I'm actually town. My win-rate as town is literally 0%, and my win-rate for scum is literally 100%. I'd like to change that.

This feels townish.

Okay.

even if it's true I couldn't have known that because you never stated that.

This is why it's problematic that you postured on a vote centered around this instead of asking him about it. Because now it looks a lot like you're shifting the blame onto him for not answering a question that you never asked him about it.

But my issue with him claiming he was trusting your methods as opposed to your vote was that he didn't articulate it, and then

he used it as a defense against my vote that was already retracted.

@Cheetory - A ProlapsedBrain vote? Whaaa?

Sh. I'm doing a thing don't butt in.

It was just an observation, I don't know your "thing," but it made me curious, okay? I had to ask, at least.

[Ozgin]

Are you illiterate?

Do not do this Ozgin.

Sorry, let me rephrase.

@Titus - Are you even reading my posts? I don't think you are.

[Ozgin]

Because Varsoon hadn't reacted or replied at all, and I thought it'd be more worth-while to use my vote on someone that I had a better case on. I wanted to get out of the RVS, and my lone vote on the non-responsive looked like just that.

Why wouldn't his lack of response make your vote stronger/give you reason to want to push him more? Wouldn't dodginess come across as scummy to you?

No, because someone's lack of posting (see House, for example) isn't necessarily scummy. Had he continued posting and ignored me, I'd be more inclined to think he's scum.

Also, could you explain the hedging thing to me?

It's hedgey because you make points about people being scummy in your eyes and then walk it back with a joke about how you're probably just being paranoid. It basically brings you around full circle and makes it so you've said not much of consequence which could come across as coasty or showy.

Fair enough, I guess the joke wasn't really that great. I was being too playful, maybe, but that was before things got as serious as they did.

In multiball with daytalk, I feel like Sky could have posted in a scum QT something like, "Hey lets go after House" and Kitz (and/or lala) could have been like, "K" and then just hopped on for no reason.

Why would they do that though?

It'd be easy? Back House into a corner before he gets around to respond, play on everyone being scared to combat House.

Well lala's response to my question was pretty much, "Oh because I'm scared of him, he might be bad later on, who knows?" Furthermore, I know that House is a scary player, both in town and scum. He could be a scum just as scared of townHouse (hehe, townhouse) or opposing-team scumHouse.

Do you think scared scum votes for someone they're scared of?

I definitely think scared scum try to do away with people they are scared of, one way or another. Whether or not it be by voting, night killing, or whatever. Think about how terrified we were as scum when TSO was making waves. Skilled players should be relatively revered, in my opinion.

But my issue with him claiming he was trusting your methods as opposed to your vote was that he didn't articulate it, and then he used it as a defense against my vote that was already retracted.

Was I entirely open about why I made my vote from the get-go? If not, why am I not under the same level of scrutiny as Varsoon by you?

I just picked Varsoon out because I didn't like his "reason." You weren't open about your reads, and you're highlighted in my excel sheet (not the same way Varsoon is, but still highlighted) so you're not free of scrutiny yourself, but your reactions and action as a player have pinged you as more town than Varsoon in my opinion.

That said, I really like the most recent back and forth between Ozgin and Cheetory.
Ozgin's very abrasive and feels like he's wheeling back especially in post 300.

I like Cheetory's push on me, as well. He's seemingly fair and level-headed about it.
Can you elaborate on how you think I'm wheeling back in post 300? I'm addressing specific posts Cheetory is asking me about.

@Ozgin

: So LaLa's got a 'shit push' (I'd prefer you actually detail why the push is bad, which I've inferred to be due to the really bogus reasoning that if House isn't 'confirmed town' this early then he must be scum--I think that's absurd reasoning and the push on House is an attempt to drum up pressure, which is what I disagreed with before, since so much of the wagon was rooted in that bogus reasoning and House didn't seem to feel that pressure at all) and has reacted poorly to people's votes and questioning? That's a solid enough reason for voting there.

So if you agree with me, what's necessarily stopping you from voting lala?

Do you have other reads? Do you think that Scumteams would really pile on someone so much this early?

I do have other reads. I'll post more about my other reads as the day goes on, we've only been playing for less than one meatworld day. I want to gather more information, especially on the people who haven't posted as much and the people who are kinda pulling me two different ways.

As for scumteams piling on someone this early - Hell yeah, why not? If I were a scumteam, I'd be advocating any and every moving wagon, for a variety of reasons. Multiball makes me think that Scumteam X (1 or 2) would pile on a wagon if one of their own weren't the one on the wagon, because that's less competition and potentially less town. Plus it's early, why not ride these flaring emotions/early game fights out? Let them carry on as they would.

For instance, let's just say for arguments sake that lala is on scumteam 1 and I'm town (there, I said terminology you all like, happy?) and House is on scumteam 2. If we were the 3 primary wagons, then scumteam 2 would be happy to pile on either of my or lala's wagons, scumteam 1 would be happy to pile on my or House's wagon, and the town would pile on the wagon they think is the scummiest, which could be any of the three.

Then, since it's early, they can just make up excuses as to why they're on it, ranging from pressure to an actual read.

[Ozgin]

EBWOP so I was thumbing back a little and I re-read the first part of your post where you say:

@Varsoon

I think LaLa is low hanging fruit. There's a general evasion happening where LaLa isn't really addressing worthwhile points being made against their slot.
Does that make it scum? Eh.
Feels more like path of least resistance.
I'd actually be okay with a lynch there since LaLa isn't providing much for the game.

And I didn't register that before I asked you why you aren't voting Lala. The question is still kinda valid, but let me also ask: Is dodging substantial points against yourself not anti-town? That is, do you really think it's not so much that lala is scummy as it is "less resistant" to lynch them?

[Ozgin]

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

You wanna talk rhetoric, I think it's awkward that you're referring to yourself as a citizen rather than town.
In most games, you're gonna be town. In this game specifically, you'd be a citizen if you were town-aligned.
So this speaks towards specific attention payed towards a claimed alignment flavor.
Which, to me, feels stilted, like you double-checked the OP to make sure you were calling yourself the right thing.

I really like this as a point.

I really like that we've argued this to the ends of hell and back, and it's a mute point and it's over.

[Ozgin]

Well Kitz, your reason was so bad it might as well have been "for no reason." Lala's was just worse, is all.

[Ozgin]

@Cheetory - I think that they are scared of house, and bringing a wagon to 5 votes (Nearly half) is one way to try to squeeze something out of him.

Besides, there are enough people here who got in late and won't read the first 10 pages, will take a look at the wagons, and make a face-value call. Every lynch has to start somewhere, so why wouldn't they just throw themselves at him now and hope for something to happen?

[Ozgin]

Uh, letting other people fight about their nonsense, and sitting back and cruising by?

[Ozgin]

Uh, letting other people fight about their nonsense, and sitting back and cruising by?

Gosh I just have to be upfront, don't I :c
Okay. So, what do you think House is going to look at first when he starts reading the game?
In my head, I imagine him first going "there is a wagon on me. Hm." and then looking at those votes. If lala and Kitz are afraid of House and they're scum, why wouldn't they be worried about him taking a closer look at them because of their votes on him? Why would they need to forge reasoning so hard for why they think someone is scum if they're capable of hunting for a second scumteam if they were scum?

That's a fairly good point. I guess I'm accustomed to people parroting being auto-scum, but I suppose it's a different case in multiball.

So Wolfie's and Ozgin's votes for me were pretty good and seemed to be coming from a townish perspective. However, I don't like dragonspawn's vote for me.

VOTE: House
Avatar easy to confuse with mod's.
Also probs scum.

forth on a wagon in rvs or close to it. Like that for scum better

VOTE: duck

...
Why is being fourth on a wagon scummy? (Mine was actually the fifth vote on the wagon, but w/e)

Ozgin, I wouldn't consider 3 votes on someone in a 21 player game to be 'fast'.
Especially this early in the game.
Furthermore, I don't understand the suspicion you were throwing onto my slot.

:/

You don't think 3 votes in 6 minutes is fast? I mean, they had to have thought and concluded upon the previous votes, then typed out their vote and their shitty reasons (no offense guys) in only 3 minutes each (referring to Kitz and lala)?

It doesn't matter how early in the game we are,

posting speed

is independent of

time of post

.

I didn't like that you mindlessly sheep'd Cheetory because you "trust" him. It was a shitty reason, even in RVS. At least I vaguely had a reason. Didn't you read my posts regarding you?

Making a good point here. Speed might indicate a scum team pushing a wagon. After all they do have day talk

Promoting Ozgin's point, it wasn't even very good imo and it didn't require propagation. This looks like dragon trying to back up his vote on me, using Ozgin's reasons. Which strikes me as a bit odd and give me scumvibes. I already had the random vote from ~kitty~ and I believe dragon is likely scum and was capitalising on the situation by putting the second vote on me and starting up el lalawagon.

I like the wagon I'm on better.

Por qué?

Eh, why not?

VOTE: Ozgin



Dunno if he's tryhard scum or tryhard town, will assume the former for now because his push on me feels calculated~

Thank you for reinforcing my point for me.

What point was that, dragon scum? I don't recall you making any legitimate points for pushing me as a dirty scum bumble.

How do you know when someone posts in another game (I mean barring the obvious that you are in that game)?

And isn't it against the rules to discuss other ongoing games?

Trying to get me into trouble are you? Tsk, tsk, tsk. I didn't break the talking about ongoing games rule, Titus pointed out what we can and can't say.

Taly,

Specifically, I don't like the way Varsoon and ducks have been pushing their wagons then when Titus votes ozgin they suddenly switch their votes in rapid succession. It doesn't feel organic. Especially duck.

Ahem... You know what I don't feel is organic? Your posts. They give me weird vibes mate.

This is probably the most townish post I've seen from you.

Course you need more than one post to get me to change your mind. I don't know whether you were just goofing off before or whether your scum buddies just told you to step up.

Oh, hello. Yesterday I was in classes all day and shitposting soz :/
It's the start of the weekend now but I have to go V/LA in under an hour.

I haven't considered dragonspawn enough, probably because he's been following suit right under me. I'm going to read dragonspawn again, especially now that he's apparently a wagon.

@All, I really don't care to lynch House. I would imagine him being more likely to fluff the point and terminate conversation, more of an "I agree to disagree" as scum. I could be wrong here, I admit that. Yet, this conversation is bogging down in theory. Theory is where scum should want to keep this.

So enough about lurkers. Enough about theory.

@Avatar, 373 is all theory. It's easy to get hostile about theory as scum or town. Let's get some wagons going and see how people react to them. Particularly obvscum Ozgin.

LOl @ "Obvscum Ozgin" - I'm still like, 75% positive you're literally only attacking me because you didn't like my analogy. Boo fucking hoo. Get over yourself, and get over the damn analogy. You're literally tunneling me on the premise of me claiming "VT", which is the stupidest fucking wagon. Either you're scum, or you're trying to throw this game.

@Taly, I plan to stay here until someone else scums worse than Ozgin, which I doubt is happening. That "Citizen" claim might as well have been a serious scum claim to me. The fact we could wagon House for not being here and being able to conftown himself but we can't wagon someone who spontaneously claims VT in the thread strongly suggests scum to me. I don't have a plan beyond brute force and listening to see if someone else actually provides a better case yadda yadda seven not town blah blah. The last time I caught scum during RVS with a similar thing, I was persuaded to let them go. My townreads then proceeded to get wagoned. It was town too that convinced me to back off because they wanted to hypothesize scenarios where the scum could theoretically be town.

He has been defensive and structured himself to discredit anyone who attacks him. Voting Varsoon yet attacking me is NOT a coincidence. We both saw it. We both jumped to the same conclusion. That's odd. I don't think scum!Varsoon jumps quick to the buddying thing there again, knowing I'll be checking him with a fine tooth comb if this shit comes up wrong. If you have got a wagon based on substance, you divert and you offer an alternative. Ozgin diverted attention from himself by voting himself and then tried to offer lala for shit reasons.

I wasn't really following NY 180 that closely, but I bet that Ozgin followed the same pattern.

So let me summarize this: "Boo hoo he made a distasteful comment and referred to himself as Citizen. He must be scum! Wah!" And you keep talking about discrediting anyone who attacks me? You've literally been drilling the same, retarded point about calling myself citizen, and then you cry about how I discredit you when you keep fucking misrepping me. I'm not attacking you, I've never even pushed on you! You keep victimizing yourself and it's

absolutely, fucking pathetic of you, Titus.

I also never voted myself to draw attention away from myself, so I dunno what the actual fuck you're talking about. So I reiterate my earlier point:

You aren't reading my fucking posts.

My reasons for lala weren't shit, you're just hell-bent on tunneling me for one shitty reason after another. I don't care about you being dissuaded from voting your scumread early in a game for someone who claimed Citizen before, because I already explained that because I call myself Citizen doesn't mean I'm not a PR or something, holy fuck.

I haven't discredited you, you've only ever misrepped me. The one, half substantial point you have on me is my misuse of the term "Citizen," and if you can't get over that then I'm just going to fucking ignore you. I'm not arguing the citizen point anymore. Oh, and don't try to say I followed a pattern in a game you didn't follow,

unless you want to keep being pathetic and misrepping me. Oh wait, that's your thing this game, isn't it dear?

Been re-reading Ozgin. Here are some posts that stuck out to me

Also, my last point on the Citizen thing and then I'm really going to bed, but I have myself written as citizen in my excel sheet (I have myself there because I just typed the list as the OP has it, and then I didn't feel like changing it after I already put my name in it, so I just threw down "Citizen, given" on my chart, and I've been using it as reference all game. Of course I'm gonna say "Citizen" when talking about myself in this game.

PEdit: Sorry Wolfie, I'm getting a little emotionally evolved and I need to pull that out of my thoughts here. I don't get emotional at all when I'm scum, and that's what you saw the most of with me in 180, so yeah of course you're not used to it. But that statement doesn't mean shit, my self-meta is useless and I'll leave you to your own conclusions.

What the hell? So you're claiming what is equivalent to VT because you had yourself written as it in an excel sheet? Also, what is this:

"I didn't feel like changing it after I already put my name in it."

So you were able to change your role? O_o.... Or you're not being honest with us?

I'm not discrediting you. You literally said that I called myself a vanilla townie, and that's not true. It's a literal misrepresentation of my terminology, which you seem to be obsessed with.

As for the shot (I'm assuming meaning shit) reasons on my push for lala, can you tell me why they're shit? Or are you just gonna throw a meaningless opinion with no supporting evidence?

Have you read the flavor correctly? Citizens are equivalent to Vanilla Town in their abilities. Claiming as one is the same as the other.

If you were a "Citizen", thought you would know this.

Uh, letting other people fight about their nonsense, and sitting back and cruising by?

Yes because sitting back and watching fights rage on usually gets town lined up to be killed, that is - if both fighters are town... Unfortunately, I should know this because I usually get into 1v1s.

You haven't posted in the past 150 posts, your wagon has had a second spark added to it, my town read on you is failing and not entirely because of your townslip. Your posts don't appear as genuine, and maybe this vote will encourage you to add more onto this subject that'd help town.

VOTE: Ozgin

I never like naked votes, especially ones on the wagons that are moving.

476

TSO, why are you voting for Ozgin?

The changing thing: I have myself on the excel sheet in row 13 on Google Docs. I can't delete a whole row to where the rows below it will move up, and I don't want an empty row because that fucks with my OCPD.

For the Vanilla Townie thing, my point was that Titus keeps saying I called myself Vanilla Townie, when I called myself Citizen. I know they're

equivalent in a usage sense,

but me saying "Citizen" is just how I call myself regular town. And again, I'm back to arguing this stupid fucking point.

I haven't posted in 150 posts because I had company last night from 5pm onward, went to bed and I woke up at 10am, got a haircut, and am here now at 1pm. My wagon revived literally over the past like, 20 hours. This is that type of shit that I was saying with the House wagon - People have lives, and can't be on Mafia 24/7.

TSO is probably just trying to add pressure to me. I just don't get that there's a fucking wagon on me based on my "misuse" of terminology.

[Ozgin]

@Egg - For fucks sake, I keep having to say it because people keep fucking throwing it in my face. Apparently, my whole case revolves around the use of the fucking word.

Fine, everyone. I'm sorry. I used "citizen" when I should have used "town." I guess I have to retract my citizen claim (even though I didn't mean it to be) because some people can't seem to get over the fact that it wasn't meant that way.

Now let me fucking read and scum hunt so I can stop getting shit for something so fucking retarded.

[Ozgin]

Uh, letting other people fight about their nonsense, and sitting back and cruising by?

Gosh I just have to be upfront, don't I :c
Okay. So, what do you think House is going to look at first when he starts reading the game?
In my head, I imagine him first going "there is a wagon on me. Hm." and then looking at those votes. If lala and Kitz are afraid of House and they're scum, why wouldn't they be worried about him taking a closer look at them because of their votes on him? Why would they need to forge reasoning so hard for why they think someone is scum if they're capable of hunting for a second scumteam if they were scum?

I'll join in this game tomorrow. Had a busy past few days. Also, on the dragon spawn to Ozgin thing, Ozgin

always

has a stupid pointless wagon on him, regardless of alignment. He eventually obv towns it up when he is town, so just wait and see if that happens later...Ozgin is

not

a day 1 lynch sort of person. Day 3, by all means, lynch him.

Thanks for the info. You're the best.

I agree that ozgin is someone we should observe. Last time we played he was pinging me like crazy. I'm not getting that now. Granted, it's still the first 48 hours of the game.

Radiant, if you're not going to play like a normal player and play like a fucking troll, then replace out.

Otherwise, do something fucking productive, will ya?

[Ozgin]

EBWOP I don't know why those were checked, I hate Q+.

[Ozgin]

No, Egg, I didn't mean it to be a Citizen claim, I meant it to be just as "town." I can't escape that I committed the

so heinous

crime of... Misspeaking! *Queue Dramatic Audience Gasp*

[Ozgin]

Spoiler: Varsoon

Ozgin:
Three votes in 6 minutes is fast for a smaller game. This is the first 10 pages in a 21 player game. Go look at other 21 player games, especially with multiball setups.
I agree that poor reasons for voting are poor.
However, my reasons for following Cheetory on the wagon were trust in both Cheetory

as well as

trust in Cheetory's approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player.
If you think there's better reasons for joining into a wagon on early D1, propose them.
No one's done anything incriminating enough to warrant an actual-factual town-whole wagon.
In fact, every wagon will likely be a bit scum-sided given our teams.
So calling out people on a 3-person wagon is derisive and hurts game momentum.
Furthermore, your post against me tries to scumpaint me over lack of your own understanding. Just because you don't comprehend a motive or a post does not make the poster scum--it only speaks to your own perception. This forces me into assuming one of two things; You lack perception or you are trying to leverage a lynch onto me. I'd rather assume you're a good player. So, I've got to figure that you're aligned differently than I am or you're bad at the game.
So, that's why I called you out. I wanna see your feathers get a bit ruffled here. I want to see if you'll either prove to have made a mistake in reading me or if you'll prove to be someone that town needs to lynch.

P-EDIT:
I'm down for an Ozgin wagon~
VOTE: Ozgin

So this was prompted by a vote and unvote on him from me, and I felt this was a huge and blow-uppy response to a very small event. He refutes me voting point about him blindly trusting Cheetory with some nonsense about how he "trusts Cheetory's approach of putting pressure on players on a wagon of a questionable player," which there was no indication of. In fact, he soft-buddies Cheetory later (I think he calls him things like, "my beloved Cheetory.").

Then he brings up a point about how every wagon is going to have scum on it, which wasn't a point I was arguing (as if he pulled a random topic out of his ass to discuss). He follows this with some backhanded dribble about how I'm either stupid/wrong or a scum, and he'd "rather believe that I'm a good player" so he assumes I'm scum.

He closes with something about ruffling my feathers, and he mentions how it's "why he came after me," like he's trying to spin this post like it's an attack rather than a defense, but he's really just defending himself almost without prompt. In fact, he only voted me in a P-Edit to hop on a wagon.

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

You wanna talk rhetoric, I think it's awkward that you're referring to yourself as a citizen rather than town.
In most games, you're gonna be town. In this game specifically, you'd be a citizen if you were town-aligned.
So this speaks towards specific attention payed towards a claimed alignment flavor.
Which, to me, feels stilted, like you double-checked the OP to make sure you were calling yourself the right thing.

Make note of how he starts the whole "citizen" speculation here. He makes it a point to say he thinks I "checked the OP to make sure I was calling myself the right thing," yes?

Also, you mention in 185 that this is the most excited game you've had to play as citizen in a normal, implying that you're referring to multiple plays as citizen, as if you're using citizen to just mean town. Does that make sense? It doesn't seem like you're referring to yourself as a citizen just here, and the inconsistency in use of citizen/town is weird.

And we can stop debating the citizen thing. We'll know when we know.

Now look how he says here (referring to the same post) that he's recognizing exactly what I did:

Referring to myself as a citizen and using it to just mean town.

If he's so skeptical of my usage of the word "citizen," then how did he perfectly recognize exactly what I was actually meaning? He's using the citizen point to argue against me to some audiences, but then here he's recognizing what I really meant.

Then he tried to sweep it away with "we can stop debating the citizen thing, we'll know when we know," but now it's the one and only prominent point against me for my wagon.

My basic point is that the site-meta calls the green-aligned players town. It struck me as awkward that Ozgin would vary from talking about 'town' and 'citizen' (in contexts of multiple games and this one), calling himself Citizen when there was more direct pressure on his slot. There's also a bit of an issue over whether or not that was a VT claim, but I didn't really want to engage on that point because if it was--it's best to keep that from being made too public info. Ultimately, it read to me like Ozgin wanted to claim town, read the OP, and called himself 'citizen' instead of just town. It's not an amazing point, to be honest, but it is

something

. I also wanted to see how Ozgin would handle the pressure of a wagon building on him (I noticed he had a vote on him, which is a lot of the reason why I stopped sheeping my beloved Cheetory).

At this point, I want to see where this goes.
Ozgin seems to participate and 'get excited' as the game heats up in these ways, so regardless of his align, this also gets him posting a bit more (hopefully) which will make reading him easier (hopefully) for all of us (hopefully).

And right after he talks about how we can stop debating about it, and how I used it as if it meant town, he's using it to argue against me. (Also, here's the beloved Cheetory post I remember seeing). But then the

next fucking sentence

is about how he doesn't want to over publicize the point,

even though he's still bringing it up.

Then he reiterates the stupid argument that it's me checking the OP to make sure it's the right thing to say, and backpedaling yet again to call the point "not amazing, but something."

Then he talked about how he wanted to get me posting more "hopefully" (even though I was posting a lot) and then implies that everyone is having trouble reading me, which wasn't a thing at that time. He's like trying to gain a friendship with everyone and pull them all towards me.

I think LaLa is low hanging fruit. There's a general evasion happening where LaLa isn't really addressing worthwhile points being made against their slot.
Does that make it scum? Eh.
Feels more like path of least resistance.
I'd actually be okay with a lynch there since LaLa isn't providing much for the game.

That said, I really like the most recent back and forth between Ozgin and Cheetory.
Ozgin's very abrasive and feels like he's wheeling back especially in post 300.

@Ozgin

: So LaLa's got a 'shit push' (I'd prefer you actually detail why the push is bad, which I've inferred to be due to the really bogus reasoning that if House isn't 'confirmed town' this early then he must be scum--I think that's absurd reasoning and the push on House is an attempt to drum up pressure, which is what I disagreed with before, since so much of the wagon was rooted in that bogus reasoning and House didn't seem to feel that pressure at all) and has reacted poorly to people's votes and questioning? That's a solid enough reason for voting there. Do you have other reads? Do you think that Scumteams would really pile on someone so much this early?

@Bookitty

: You've grown to become a player who I put a lot of stock in. You've got very strong direction as town, and in this game, even if you're scum, you'd need to eliminate the SK and the other team. I want to know your reads and thoughts on the game. I'd like to see you be more vocal. I want your voice to be in this game. In all the 21 player games I've seen, Town only wins when there are dominant town voices. I want to hedge my bets on you, Boo. Get in here!

@RadiantCowbells

: Please don't phone this game in. You're an easy lynch and I'd like you to be more outspoken and here. I don't want to see you either skim by or get lynched based on path of least resistance.

So he makes another post that is internally flip-floppy here. He starts with this little thing about Lala just being and easy lynch, but then says he wouldn't mind it because Lala isn't providing enough.

He calls me abrasive and claims that I'm "wheeling back" when I was merely answering Cheetory's questions. He then goes on to agree with my points on Lala (kinda contradicting the whole, "Lala is just easy" concept), and asks me about my reads or whatever, so it's almost like he's agreeing with me and saying that I'm correct, but apparently still sticking to the vote on me. K.

The rest of this post is him stroking Bookitty and RadiantCowbells and saying, "Oh please, please please please friends, I want you to be vocal and active! I truly value your opinions, please come play!" (which Bookitty actually took the bait and said his reaching out to him was towny, lol). This is where his hard-buddying becomes really flamboyant.

Not callin' anyone lurkers--but I do want to call for some people to keep the game's pace in mind and make an effort to contribute from the onset.

@Ozgin:

I mainly wanted to sort out the motivations of people that I was skeptical about who are on the wagon (I'm still not excited about the LaLaDucks wagon's voters) and since your were vocal I decided giving attention your way could be a strong means of figuring some things out.
I feel like I have a stronger grasp on my read on your slot and the LalaDucks wagon. If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Ducks.
VOTE: LalaDucks
It needs to be made accountable.

@Egg:

Damn right I'm buddying Bookitty. Bookitty should be my buddy. If enough buddies get together, they can form a strong pact that'll destroy the scum. At this point, I don't care if my buddies are scum or third party. We need to eliminate an entire team or we lose. I've been in multiball before. If scum and third party double-down on their kills on town (and if town has killing abilities they mess up too), then we could easily lose several of our members after a mislynch. It's best to have everyone working together rather than against each other. I'll make friends and buddies for that cause.

@Bookitty:

<3 I know we've all got busy lives. I just wanna see you throw down in this game and bring the thunder! Take the game at your pace, of course. I just wanna see the quality of play I usually see from you, y'know? A call to arms, of sorts. So far, you've been awesome. I wanna see you keep being awesome.

Here he claims he targeted me because I'm vocal, which is stupid because there are plenty of other vocal players. Then, he keeps acting all apprehensive about the lala wagon

as he fucking climbs aboard it.

Then he says that, after he's read me and lala both, he feels that lala is more worthwhile to lynch. I agree, then and now, but he goes back on that pretty easily.

Then he goes on to defend his buddying, and further perpetuate it by doing it some more with Bookitty. At this point, he's damn near flirting!

Oh shit Varsoon wants to work with other people early on in a large game!?
Must be scum!

Except I'm not.
I don't follow your reasoning here, House.
I can also provide you with a shitload of meta evidence where I've done this as town before and not done it as scum.
But meta's dumb so let's not go there.

He sarcastically defends his buddying as working with other people. Then he does this weird, "I can provide meta!" followed by "Meta's dumb, so let's just not." That implies he either doesn't have the meta to show, or he's trying to get people to stop asking questions.

So far House gives me town vibes. Comes in the game all abrasive and not giving a crap.

I fail to see how that gives you townvibes but I guess so?

@House:

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setup.
Follow me here, okay? Follow me.
That means that regardless of my alignment, I've got 3 other factions to defeat for my wincon.
Regardless of Cheetory and Bookitty's alignments, they've got 3 other factions to defeat for their wincon.
AS TOWN, it's more important than anything to defeat the other factions with a lynch because

that's the only fucking way they will be able to.

So it

absolutely does not matter who allies together at this point in the game

because no matter the overlap, we will have two common enemy factions.
Encouraging

focus

and

direction

in a large game is good this early on.
Encouraging

dialogue

and

interaction

in a large game is good this early on.
Your efforts to call that out as scummy are noted, but I will not have you dismantle my attempt to get this fucking game running, House.
Either get on the helping side of things or be derisive. But know that if you stand against me, you're already dead.

Make sure that when you read this post, you memorize this sentence, especially the underlined: "So it

absolutely does not matter who allies together at this point in the game

because no matter the overlap, we will have two common enemy factions."

He's still defending the idea that buddying = working together to catch scum. He's claiming to trying to be "getting this game running," which is bullshit and he knows it. He's just trying to make friends with everyone so nobody want's to lynch him.

Jesus, House.
I'm

NOT

working with people regardless of their alignment.
I'm saying that if it turns out my read is wrong, I don't care.
Furthermore, other people's read of me shouldn't matter as much this early in the game because direction, focus, dialogue, and interaction is more important.

Anyway.
We could bicker all damn page about this and we almost have.

I'm more interested in your reads, how you feel about the Lalaladucks wagon (both the slot and the people voting it) and if you'd be interested in being my friend.

Well, did you memorize that line? The line he perfectly contradicts with, "I'm not working with people regardless of their alignment," even though he said exactly that. Then he tries to just shuffle away this argument with, "Anyway, we bickered too much about this, what are your reads?" - Kinda what he did about the arguments against me using the word "citizen" in place of "town." And he tries to quickly go over to the topic of reads, exactly what he did with me.

VOTE: Ozgin

I felt like Lala was low-hanging fruit but the recent lala posts made me conflicted enough to swap votes.
On one hand, recent posts from laladucks were cogent, apologetic, and generally understandable.
On the other, that's a method of survivalism that SK would almost certainly -have- to employ.
I kinda wanted to put more pressure there but this seems to be all we'll get.

House and Sky are town, imo. I'd like to avoid that for now.

Back to me, and it's not even like his reads changed on me. There's no indication of that. He's just jumping on me because he wants to get on a new wagon.

He's saying he doesn't think lala is low-hanging fruit anymore. The next two lines are saying, "Yeah he's good, but he could also be bad." He concedes his own point with some dribble about him wanting to pressure lala more and failing, and that (I guess) is supposed to be the reason he switched to me? Blegh, icky votes are icky.

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setting. When I say SK, I refer to that 1.
Why mention it?
Because it exists.

"Oh I'm bringing up the SK because he exists! We have to worry about 1 of 7 scum, and the 1 who is alone and working by themselves as opposed to the two scumteams of 3 who are working together, solely because he exists!"

SK's going to worry about their survival the most in this setup, and is very likely bulletproof. They need to avoid being lynched. People who are overly defensive and self-preserving may fit this. In order for us to win, we need to lynch the SK.
Any of the other scum teams can win even if they lose members, but the SK loses if he dies.
They have to play to survive.

@RadiantCowbells: Post! Become relevant! Get in the game. Also, uh, what Titus said.

Prepare for another one of his contradictions between posts: He says, "In order for us to win, we need to lynch the SK." Remember this.

He's making light allegations towards lala being SK and making brazzen setup speculations in regards to the SK.

However, I kinda wanna just point out that the way SKs are successful are more or less by hard-buddying everyone and being the universal friend. If they're BP, they don't have to worry about NKs, so their only real scare is being lynched. That sounds awfully familiar... I was just reading someone's ISO who does this. But anyhow...

We're -not- SK hunting, chill out.
I'm saying that it's legitimate to consider someone's survivalism and defensiveness as a part of perhaps being an SK.
Because we know there's one in the setup.
I'm saying that we should consider everything we have before us, rather than turn a blind eye to certain aspects of the setup when considering players and their play.

"We're -not- SK hunting, chill out." -> What a lovely thing to follow "We need to lynch the SK." Then the rest of the post is more dribble about how we need to consider all things, blah blah.


Overall, Varsoon is wishy-washy. I should have kept on him from the start. He contradicts himself every few posts and is generally wishy-washy on all of his points. I think he's a good person to lynch. Not just wagon for pressure, but I think he's a good D1 lynch.

VOTE: Varsoon

[Ozgin]

@Anen, in order: Yes, I'm not, Ignore that, No it isn't, and I didn't say that.

@Taly I think my next scumspect would be Kitz, bur I don't have as much on her.

@Egg - What's your point on me again?

[Ozgin]

Ozgin, I'm flattered, but you're really scumpainting me hard. Almost every point you have is some hyperbolized reactionary insult to my points. What's worse is that you're digging hard into things I've grown from and moved away from as well, so a lot of your complaints fall awkwardly in places that just aren't applicable anymore.

Look, it's not like I don't get the motivation. You're being wagoned hard. You need to counterwagon someone and drive the direction of the game away from yourself or you'll be lynched. You're flailing. People notice that. Why not make a big post-by-post case on a player who's integral to your wagon? Big post cases like that earn town-points, right?

What's especially fun is that I called you out on your earlier outburst as a flailing attempt to diffuse your wagon. Your response--going for my throat as hard as possible--is just more of the same. You're trying to do whatever you can to shake people off of you, to change the direction of the votes.

Why are you so concerned with your own survival?
Why is your scumhunting reactionary and insult-driven?
Why are you bringing back up the Citizen nonsense with me?

Spoiler:

I'm not pushing you over that. Talk to Titus about it if you wanna give someone flak. I was just noting the awkwardness in you saying you're a Citizen in a game where town-claiming-town might not pay that much attention to the rhetoric but scum-claiming-town certainly would.

Can you use more buzzwords in your posts that only (poorly) summarize my play so far?
I don't understand why you're voting me. Why are you voting me? Because we've already talked about my buddying plenty, which I've legitimately said is buddying. I don't get what your beef is.

I know you're jealous of me and my beloved Cheetory and Bookitty superbloc, it's okay. <3
Are you capable of understanding that someone can feel half-hearted about things and have their eggs in many baskets? Because when I say 'We need to lynch the SK' and generally advocate being aware of an SK presence, that does not equate to your fiction of me insisting on an SK hunt or only looking to lynch the SK on day 1. As it turns out, I can hunt scum and the SK all at the same time! I can try to form alliances and hunt scum all at once! I can change my ideas on things across time! Woah! It's like I'm an actual human being, capable of having varying interests and investments in multiple things, capable of change and thoughtfulness and even being wrong! Woah!

Ozgin, come on. I don't see a bit of genuine effort in your case on me. It feels half-assed. It feels like a last-ditch flail to try to distract from your wagon, or, at least, force a 1v1. I've been there before, myself. I used to sweat hard when I got a handful of votes in large games. I was too used to the small ones where six votes meant death. Six votes here isn't even halfway to lynch, though. So I want to know why you're sweating so much. I want to know where this aggression against me is coming from. Your points against me are all things I've addressed already, so I'm curious as to why you're insistent on revisiting those old conversations. I want this game to move forward, Ozgin. I believe that direction lies with your lynch. When you flail like this and make what comes across, to me, as a desperate last-ditch effort to survive, it only makes me more confident in lynching you.

VOTE: Ozgin
Y'know. For good measure.

If you aren't the cockiest motherfucker I've ever seen.

Your entire post is a patronizing piece of shit and doesn't actually provide any defense against my points other than, "I've moved on from that," and "I've addressed that," when in reality you haven't addressed anything. It's a big fluff post with you trying to sound all high and mighty, like you're so great. And since when are you an integral part of my wagon? My real pusher is Titus, not you?

Why am I concerned with my own survival? Isn't everyone? If my wincon is to eliminate scum, why wouldn't I scumhunt? Why does my scumhunt have to be because it's you specifically? You're just the scummiest ISO I've read.

My scumhunting isn't reactionary and insult-driven, it's perfectly valid. What the hell do you mean the points I brought up aren't applicable anymore? Everything you say in a mafia game are applicable! It's a game about finding scum based on what you say!

And I don't have a beef, like I said - I read ISOs, I thought you contradicted yourself a lot and were extremely wishy washy. This is just a flail? seriously? I'm still at like, L-5. I don't have to flail until L-2. Just because I'm trying to actually scumhunt, now it's about me trying to shake attention off? If I had built a different scum case on someone else earlier, it would have been fine! You literally complain about how abrasive I am and how defensive I am, I get offensive, and that's scummy now apparently too?

Jesus Christ, what do you need to be satisfied, you arrogant prick? Actually address some of my points in my posts maybe, and stop throwing around your high-and-mighty shitposts.

[Ozgin]

Note: Still didn't actually reply to any points. Pity.

[Ozgin]

@Varsoon - Quote yourself, then. I'm not seeing it. None of the points and contradictions I pointed out are addressed. Refute my evidence, otherwise you're scum with nothing to hide.

[Ozgin]

Woah, the laladucks wagon really folded into being a dragonspawn wagon, huh?
Even eclipses the Ozgin one.
Hm.
Wonder if there's any possibility of just folding over and going all in on one or the other.

@Ozgin: Don't be droppin' those ultimatums! This isn't Shards of Alara, bro.
Can you make a bulleted/numbered and simplified list? We can do this via spoiler entries so we don't clog the thread. <3

Step 1) Read my case on you, spoilered on page 22 with my vote.
Step 2) Systematically address each of my points, especially the ones that highlight your self contradictory statements.

[Ozgin]

For example - Your 384 contradicts your 395, your 446 contradicts your 450, your 191 contradicts your 214, your 303 has contradictions between where you start and where you finish, etc.

[Ozgin]

I made a list, I'm not going to re-make the thing you're asking for that I gave you two pages ago.

[Ozgin]

Except, you know, you haven't actually addressed any of my points, you just said that you have. I already gave you a list of points to address. The difference, Varsoon, is that I'm productive in this scenario, and you aren't.

[Ozgin]

Spoiler: Happy Birthday, actually c:

So this was prompted by a vote and unvote on him from me, and I felt this was a huge and blow-uppy response to a very small event.

No, this was prompted by your play through the game and your scumpainting of me. I wanted to direct pressure onto you. The fact you felt this was a huge response means you felt the pressure. I don't like that you're trying to play this off as me having some blow-up response. This is pretty casual fab, broheim.

He refutes me voting point about him blindly trusting Cheetory with some nonsense about how he "trusts Cheetory's approach of putting pressure on players on a wagon of a questionable player," which there was no indication of. In fact, he soft-buddies Cheetory later (I think he calls him things like, "my beloved Cheetory.").

I've already talked about the 'buddying' thing. I've actively tried to make allies with Cheetory and Bookitty so far. This was outright claimed in the thread and discussed to death. Here, you're trying to rely heavily on a scum association with the rhetoric of buddying, but I'm not even being subtle. I'm literally saying that I trust Cheetory's judgment. It's also incredibly dismissive to blow off my explanation of agreeing with putting pressure on an early wagon/questionable player as 'nonsense'. C'mon, dude. Uncool.

Your "talking about buddying" has only ever been you admitting to it. Building Alliances with anyone regardless of their wincon is anti-town. The fact that you don't care what scummy people are on your team is bad. Why not work towards a townbloc exclusively? I think it's scummy as fuck.

Then he brings up a point about how every wagon is going to have scum on it, which wasn't a point I was arguing (as if he pulled a random topic out of his ass to discuss). He follows this with some backhanded dribble about how I'm either stupid/wrong or a scum, and he'd "rather believe that I'm a good player" so he assumes I'm scum.

You were arguing that it was scummy to buddy up with players, right? In this post, I'm making a defense for an early alliance as well as the observation that even if we lynch scum, it won't be a 100% town wagon. I was decrying your hesitance over co-operation because I found it against the point of the game and likely to mire us in a directionless argument rather than moving forward with good content wagons. I'm saying that if you continue to stand against co-operation (which you have), you're only a hindrance to town's efforts, which likely does make you wrong/stupid or scum. Sorry if that's too insulting. Town needs focus and direction, especially on D1.

You keep drudging up this theme of direction. Not all direction is good - You leading a lynch on me is leading town in a bad direction, for instance. I'm not standing against co-operation, I'm standing against alliances built without concern for alignment instead of wagons built solely on evidence and reason. That's not anti-town, that pro-logic.

He closes with something about ruffling my feathers, and he mentions how it's "why he came after me," like he's trying to spin this post like it's an attack rather than a defense, but he's really just defending himself almost without prompt. In fact, he only voted me in a P-Edit to hop on a wagon.

I hopped on here because Titus voted for you and I realized this would be a good chance to shift direction and apply pressure to your slot. That's why it came in a P-Edit. Furthermore, this is me saying this is largely a pressure vote. And it is an assault. I'm actually fine at defending myself while persuing other interests and pushes. I decided that I want to push you. Don't try to spin this as some OMGUS-defensive rubbish, because it is not.

I feel like it's perfectly legitimate to believe you wanted to OMGUS vote me, and didn't until the opportunity came to you where it would be less conspicuous. I don't buy the whole, "It was just for pressure!" bullshit, either.

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

You wanna talk rhetoric, I think it's awkward that you're referring to yourself as a citizen rather than town.
In most games, you're gonna be town. In this game specifically, you'd be a citizen if you were town-aligned.
So this speaks towards specific attention payed towards a claimed alignment flavor.
Which, to me, feels stilted, like you double-checked the OP to make sure you were calling yourself the right thing.

Make note of how he starts the whole "citizen" speculation here. He makes it a point to say he thinks I "checked the OP to make sure I was calling myself the right thing," yes?

Also, you mention in 185 that this is the most excited game you've had to play as citizen in a normal, implying that you're referring to multiple plays as citizen, as if you're using citizen to just mean town. Does that make sense? It doesn't seem like you're referring to yourself as a citizen just here, and the inconsistency in use of citizen/town is weird.

And we can stop debating the citizen thing. We'll know when we know.

Now look how he says here (referring to the same post) that he's recognizing exactly what I did:

Referring to myself as a citizen and using it to just mean town.

If he's so skeptical of my usage of the word "citizen," then how did he perfectly recognize exactly what I was actually meaning? He's using the citizen point to argue against me to some audiences, but then here he's recognizing what I really meant.

Okay, you seem to be misunderstanding my point entirely. Let me walk you through it, maybe we can come to common ground?
You made the aforementioned post saying that you're excited to play as a citizen in normal.
I thought that Citizen was an awkward choice of words here.
I went to the OP to make sure that was the flavor of the game
Turns out that's exactly the only sample role PM given
I figure that if you were scum trying to stick to the flavor, you might have had to check the OP in a similar way for versimilitude
I figure that if you were town just claiming town, you wouldn't be so precise with the language
This is later backed up when you start being less precise with the language, using town interchangibly, which makes me feel like the citizen thing was more forced/awkward especially after calling you out on it.
So this isn't some disparity of what you 'meant' when using the word Citizen, this is an issue of you not having a town role PM and then checking the OP to see what town was called rather than just saying you are town.
Again, this is a weak-as-fuck point and honestly pretty null. I was just using it as a means to apply pressure to you to see how you would handle it. I later come out and say that.

Except I didn't go back to using town and citizen interchangeably, I got bitched at by Titus for using the word Citizen and was practically forced to make sure I said town for myself from then on out, and I use Citizen when I'm talking about this incident because that seems to be the buzzword of the conversation on me.

Finally, if it's a weak-as-fuck point, why is it still being pushed on me? Bookitty and Titus on my wagon (a third of the votes against me) cite it as the reason for voting me, and TSO doesn't have a reason for his vote on me. As for the others (excluding yourself), they have probably brought up the citizen point at least once when talking about voting for me. So why are you the only person who thinks it's a weak point, and why aren't you more vocal about it being a weak point? I think you're using the citizen point as a reason for people to vote me for your precious "pressure," and it's kinda bullshit. Like, why can't you push a lynch for me without perpetuating a stupid argument against me?

Then he tried to sweep it away with "we can stop debating the citizen thing, we'll know when we know," but now it's the one and only prominent point against me for my wagon.

No, it isn't. The reason I am still driving your wagon is because you're abrasive, overtly defensive, quick to misappropriate other's posts, and generally terrible at handling pressure. That, coupled with awkward interactions with other players (your tunneling versus how some players seem to come out of the woodwork to defend you), is a lot of why I'm pushing you still. Ultimately, I think you've got a good chance of flipping scum, so I want for your lynch. Plus, I kinda just want you not to be in the game due to how anti-town you've been with actively trying to bog down the game and hinder town focus (via insistence on long posts, arguments that sprawl pages, so on and so forth).
Titus was focused on the citizen deal--but not in the same way I was (Titus saw your citizen claim to be a Vanilla Town claim and called it out for being very awkward) but is also pushing you for several of the reasons above, I believe.

I'm overtly defensive because you and everyone else are so quick to attack me. I'm not misappropriating posts to the best of my knowledge, the only points where we completely disagree are those where you say I misinterpret you. Maybe that's true. I'm telling you what I think your posts really mean, and if I'm wrong then oh well. I'm not purposefully misappropriating peoples' posts like Titus has been trying to do to me. I'm not the one tunneling, I'm being tunneled. People are defending me because the points against me are kinda stupid! There's not a good chance I'm flipping scum, because I'm not of an anti-town faction, and if the lynch happens on me then it will at least be half-owed to people harping on the citizen point, and the rest will be owed to you "Pressuring" me and voting me because I'm defending myself while you're attacking me. Titus isn't pushing me for any of the same reasons you are, imo. She's caught up on the baby thing still, and the citizen thing as well.

My basic point is that the site-meta calls the green-aligned players town. It struck me as awkward that Ozgin would vary from talking about 'town' and 'citizen' (in contexts of multiple games and this one), calling himself Citizen when there was more direct pressure on his slot. There's also a bit of an issue over whether or not that was a VT claim, but I didn't really want to engage on that point because if it was--it's best to keep that from being made too public info. Ultimately, it read to me like Ozgin wanted to claim town, read the OP, and called himself 'citizen' instead of just town. It's not an amazing point, to be honest, but it is

something

. I also wanted to see how Ozgin would handle the pressure of a wagon building on him (I noticed he had a vote on him, which is a lot of the reason why I stopped sheeping my beloved Cheetory).

At this point, I want to see where this goes.
Ozgin seems to participate and 'get excited' as the game heats up in these ways, so regardless of his align, this also gets him posting a bit more (hopefully) which will make reading him easier (hopefully) for all of us (hopefully).

And right after he talks about how we can stop debating about it, and how I used it as if it meant town, he's using it to argue against me. (Also, here's the beloved Cheetory post I remember seeing). But then the

next fucking sentence

is about how he doesn't want to over publicize the point,

even though he's still bringing it up.

Then he reiterates the stupid argument that it's me checking the OP to make sure it's the right thing to say, and backpedaling yet again to call the point "not amazing, but something."

Already addressed in earlier points. I'm reiterating and explaining here. I fail to see how that's 'backpedaling'. Here, I don't want the game to become ten fucking pages talking about this Citizen thing. That's why I'm trying to nail down what I meant by it because it seemed like people were still confused and because I wanted to be done with it.

I wanted to be done with it too, but for some reason it falls on deaf ears when I say my use of the term citizen is not necessarily a VT claim. It's almost like I'm being ignored or something.

Then he talked about how he wanted to get me posting more "hopefully" (even though I was posting a lot) and then implies that everyone is having trouble reading me, which wasn't a thing at that time. He's like trying to gain a friendship with everyone and pull them all towards me.

Crazy, right! It's like I want more people on your wagon for more pressure and maybe even a lynch! And I always want more content from players, bro.

I think it's okay to advocate pressure on me, and I can understand that. But advocating pressure up to a lynch for the sake of just getting a lynch to move on with the game is bad.

I think LaLa is low hanging fruit. There's a general evasion happening where LaLa isn't really addressing worthwhile points being made against their slot.
Does that make it scum? Eh.
Feels more like path of least resistance.
I'd actually be okay with a lynch there since LaLa isn't providing much for the game.

That said, I really like the most recent back and forth between Ozgin and Cheetory.
Ozgin's very abrasive and feels like he's wheeling back especially in post 300.

@Ozgin

: So LaLa's got a 'shit push' (I'd prefer you actually detail why the push is bad, which I've inferred to be due to the really bogus reasoning that if House isn't 'confirmed town' this early then he must be scum--I think that's absurd reasoning and the push on House is an attempt to drum up pressure, which is what I disagreed with before, since so much of the wagon was rooted in that bogus reasoning and House didn't seem to feel that pressure at all) and has reacted poorly to people's votes and questioning? That's a solid enough reason for voting there. Do you have other reads? Do you think that Scumteams would really pile on someone so much this early?

@Bookitty

: You've grown to become a player who I put a lot of stock in. You've got very strong direction as town, and in this game, even if you're scum, you'd need to eliminate the SK and the other team. I want to know your reads and thoughts on the game. I'd like to see you be more vocal. I want your voice to be in this game. In all the 21 player games I've seen, Town only wins when there are dominant town voices. I want to hedge my bets on you, Boo. Get in here!

@RadiantCowbells

: Please don't phone this game in. You're an easy lynch and I'd like you to be more outspoken and here. I don't want to see you either skim by or get lynched based on path of least resistance.

So he makes another post that is internally flip-floppy here. He starts with this little thing about Lala just being and easy lynch, but then says he wouldn't mind it because Lala isn't providing enough.

How is that flip-flopping? Lala was an easy lynch because of how apparently scummy Lala was. I was willing to go wagon lala to add more pressure there and hopefully get lala to produce worthwhile content or die.

You say that Lala is just an easy lynch and then go to lala. I've been trying my hardest to produce worthwhile content and even though lala hasn't actually posted much since his "seemingly apologetic and understandable" posts, going back to flying low and producing nothing.

He calls me abrasive and claims that I'm "wheeling back" when I was merely answering Cheetory's questions. He then goes on to agree with my points on Lala (kinda contradicting the whole, "Lala is just easy" concept), and asks me about my reads or whatever, so it's almost like he's agreeing with me and saying that I'm correct, but apparently still sticking to the vote on me. K.

You came off as pretty defensive in tone when I was reading that post, ergo the 'wheeling back'. Agreeing with your points doesn't contridict that Lala is easy at all--I'm agreeing that you're pushing Lala for okay reasons and that it'd be easy to push Lala. In your mind, does an 'easy push' not equate to a player being scum? I don't understand this sentiment. I'm saying that you're voting Lala for reasons that are understandable, but Lala has made himself an easy target, which means that you'd easily look like town for pushing Lala. I was hoping to discern if you were just falling in with people that were lobbing easy votes with easy reasoning or if you had something more to add to that wagon.

Defensive =/= Wheeling Back. No, an "easy push" doesn't equate to being scum. It sounds like you're down playing the value of lynching a player like lala. I didn't have to add more to that wagon, I provided enough reason for it to move.

The rest of this post is him stroking Bookitty and RadiantCowbells and saying, "Oh please, please please please friends, I want you to be vocal and active! I truly value your opinions, please come play!" (which Bookitty actually took the bait and said his reaching out to him was towny, lol). This is where his hard-buddying becomes really flamboyant.

I don't really want RC to be my buddy. I want RC to produce content because RC has problems with content production.
I want Bookitty to produce the content I usually get from Bookitty because it helps me solve games. I want to ally with Bookitty because Bookitty is a player that is generally fun, agreeable, and has strong forward momentum in games. If that's bait, then fuck the idea of a fun mafia community. I, for one, would prefer players have the capacity to work together rather than being a bunch of abrasive, cynical, with-held jerkbags. Together, we have fun and thrive and can push games in a fun direction. That's what I'm calling for here. I'm not trying to be subtle about it at all, and I don't understand why you have such an insistence on this sort of camaraderie being scum-driven.

I don't care what you say, or what you call it. Buddying, "building a superbloc," or "making alliances with anyone regardless of their alignment" is scummy.

Not callin' anyone lurkers--but I do want to call for some people to keep the game's pace in mind and make an effort to contribute from the onset.

@Ozgin:

I mainly wanted to sort out the motivations of people that I was skeptical about who are on the wagon (I'm still not excited about the LaLaDucks wagon's voters) and since your were vocal I decided giving attention your way could be a strong means of figuring some things out.
I feel like I have a stronger grasp on my read on your slot and the LalaDucks wagon. If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Ducks.
VOTE: LalaDucks
It needs to be made accountable.

@Egg:

Damn right I'm buddying Bookitty. Bookitty should be my buddy. If enough buddies get together, they can form a strong pact that'll destroy the scum. At this point, I don't care if my buddies are scum or third party. We need to eliminate an entire team or we lose. I've been in multiball before. If scum and third party double-down on their kills on town (and if town has killing abilities they mess up too), then we could easily lose several of our members after a mislynch. It's best to have everyone working together rather than against each other. I'll make friends and buddies for that cause.

@Bookitty:

<3 I know we've all got busy lives. I just wanna see you throw down in this game and bring the thunder! Take the game at your pace, of course. I just wanna see the quality of play I usually see from you, y'know? A call to arms, of sorts. So far, you've been awesome. I wanna see you keep being awesome.

Here he claims he targeted me because I'm vocal, which is stupid because there are plenty of other vocal players.

...so it's stupid to try to discern the reasons of one of my scumpile for being on a wagon I think is too-easy and might be a VI? I targeted you because I new you would respond (due to your vocal nature), I did not understand your reasons for voting laladucks, and because I wanted to put pressure on you.

But you did understand my reason for voting laladucks, because you agreed with me at one point! You agreed with me here, and even voted him! What the hell do you mean you did not understand my reasons? How would voting lala put pressure on me? That's what you did in this post!

Then, he keeps acting all apprehensive about the lala wagon

as he fucking climbs aboard it.

Then he says that, after he's read me and lala both, he feels that lala is more worthwhile to lynch. I agree, then and now, but he goes back on that pretty easily.

Yeah, it's almost as if I'm unsure of if lala is scum-being-dumb or town-being-scummy-and-an-easy push and I hesitantly decide to pressure it, ultimately with the idea that it'll at least give us some worthwhile info on flip.

So you voted it against your own will? You were unsure, so you were willing to ride it to flip if not for anything but information? What the hell kind of effective logic is that?

Then he goes on to defend his buddying, and further perpetuate it by doing it some more with Bookitty. At this point, he's damn near flirting!

We've been over this. Are you jealous, Ozzy? I can flirt with you, too~<3
I'm sorry we're so back-and-forth this game. Do you like pizza? I'll buy you one with my Tax Refund when it comes in, if ya want~

While I scumread you, and I don't like you this game, I'll take you up on that offer.

Oh shit Varsoon wants to work with other people early on in a large game!?
Must be scum!

Except I'm not.
I don't follow your reasoning here, House.
I can also provide you with a shitload of meta evidence where I've done this as town before and not done it as scum.
But meta's dumb so let's not go there.

He sarcastically defends his buddying as working with other people. Then he does this weird, "I can provide meta!" followed by "Meta's dumb, so let's just not." That implies he either doesn't have the meta to show, or he's trying to get people to stop asking questions.

I do have the meta to show, but digging up games is boring and tedious. Furthermore, I don't put much stock in meta, so while I'd be willing to pull some links out, I really would prefer not to. Ergo, the post made here.

If you think meta is something not worthwhile to put stock into, why bring it up at all?

So far House gives me town vibes. Comes in the game all abrasive and not giving a crap.

I fail to see how that gives you townvibes but I guess so?

@House:

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setup.
Follow me here, okay? Follow me.
That means that regardless of my alignment, I've got 3 other factions to defeat for my wincon.
Regardless of Cheetory and Bookitty's alignments, they've got 3 other factions to defeat for their wincon.
AS TOWN, it's more important than anything to defeat the other factions with a lynch because

that's the only fucking way they will be able to.

So it

absolutely does not matter who allies together at this point in the game

because no matter the overlap, we will have two common enemy factions.
Encouraging

focus

and

direction

in a large game is good this early on.
Encouraging

dialogue

and

interaction

in a large game is good this early on.
Your efforts to call that out as scummy are noted, but I will not have you dismantle my attempt to get this fucking game running, House.
Either get on the helping side of things or be derisive. But know that if you stand against me, you're already dead.

Make sure that when you read this post, you memorize this sentence, especially the underlined: "So it

absolutely does not matter who allies together at this point in the game

because no matter the overlap, we will have two common enemy factions."

He's still defending the idea that buddying = working together to catch scum. He's claiming to trying to be "getting this game running," which is bullshit and he knows it. He's just trying to make friends with everyone so nobody want's to lynch him.

I'm hardly trying to make friends with everyone. Again, you're refraining to hyperbole and loose conclusions. I'm trying to make a tight alliance so that I have some people to have fun with and give direction to the game. If anything, wouldn't these actions paint a bigger target on my head? Especially if I lead a bunch of lynches on town? It's not like I'm being subtle. It's not like I'm asking people to defend me or any shit like that. I'm trying to move the game forward--to my wincon. This isn't in some cynical scum self-interest. We could argue this shit all day, though, which is a distraction town doesn't need. It's a playstyle difference that you'll have to nut up and deal with.

You're trying to make friends with a lot of people. I'm not refraining to hyperbole or loose conclusions, I'm downright saying that you talking like this is you trying to build a friendbase who won't let you get lynched. Maybe they would paint a target on your head, maybe they wouldn't. Maybe the friends you're making are in each of the scum factions, and want to keep you around at least as much as they want to kill you. Especially if you're "leading a bunch of lynches on town." You don't have to ask your buddies to defend you, it comes naturally. That's the value of buddying. You get people to defend you without them feeling like they're hard-defending you at all. It could easily be a cynical scum self-interest. I think it's a scummy playstyle, so I think it's perfectly valid for everyone to consider in this game.

Jesus, House.
I'm

NOT

working with people regardless of their alignment.
I'm saying that if it turns out my read is wrong, I don't care.
Furthermore, other people's read of me shouldn't matter as much this early in the game because direction, focus, dialogue, and interaction is more important.

Anyway.
We could bicker all damn page about this and we almost have.

I'm more interested in your reads, how you feel about the Lalaladucks wagon (both the slot and the people voting it) and if you'd be interested in being my friend.

Well, did you memorize that line? The line he perfectly contradicts with, "I'm not working with people regardless of their alignment," even though he said exactly that. Then he tries to just shuffle away this argument with, "Anyway, we bickered too much about this, what are your reads?" - Kinda what he did about the arguments against me using the word "citizen" in place of "town." And he tries to quickly go over to the topic of reads, exactly what he did with me.

Again, for the sake of direction, I try not to get mired in pointless arguments that distract from the game. Also, you don't seem to understand my point about working with people regardless of alignment. I spell it out in detail in post 562. Go read that.

I already said why working with people regardless of alignment is bad.

Everything from here on out goes unaddressed until a separate post made after this response:

VOTE: Ozgin

I felt like Lala was low-hanging fruit but the recent lala posts made me conflicted enough to swap votes.
On one hand, recent posts from laladucks were cogent, apologetic, and generally understandable.
On the other, that's a method of survivalism that SK would almost certainly -have- to employ.
I kinda wanted to put more pressure there but this seems to be all we'll get.

House and Sky are town, imo. I'd like to avoid that for now.

Back to me, and it's not even like his reads changed on me. There's no indication of that. He's just jumping on me because he wants to get on a new wagon.

He's saying he doesn't think lala is low-hanging fruit anymore. The next two lines are saying, "Yeah he's good, but he could also be bad." He concedes his own point with some dribble about him wanting to pressure lala more and failing, and that (I guess) is supposed to be the reason he switched to me? Blegh, icky votes are icky.

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setting. When I say SK, I refer to that 1.
Why mention it?
Because it exists.

"Oh I'm bringing up the SK because he exists! We have to worry about 1 of 7 scum, and the 1 who is alone and working by themselves as opposed to the two scumteams of 3 who are working together, solely because he exists!"

SK's going to worry about their survival the most in this setup, and is very likely bulletproof. They need to avoid being lynched. People who are overly defensive and self-preserving may fit this. In order for us to win, we need to lynch the SK.
Any of the other scum teams can win even if they lose members, but the SK loses if he dies.
They have to play to survive.

@RadiantCowbells: Post! Become relevant! Get in the game. Also, uh, what Titus said.

Prepare for another one of his contradictions between posts: He says, "In order for us to win, we need to lynch the SK." Remember this.

He's making light allegations towards lala being SK and making brazzen setup speculations in regards to the SK.

However, I kinda wanna just point out that the way SKs are successful are more or less by hard-buddying everyone and being the universal friend. If they're BP, they don't have to worry about NKs, so their only real scare is being lynched. That sounds awfully familiar... I was just reading someone's ISO who does this. But anyhow...

We're -not- SK hunting, chill out.
I'm saying that it's legitimate to consider someone's survivalism and defensiveness as a part of perhaps being an SK.
Because we know there's one in the setup.
I'm saying that we should consider everything we have before us, rather than turn a blind eye to certain aspects of the setup when considering players and their play.

"We're -not- SK hunting, chill out." -> What a lovely thing to follow "We need to lynch the SK." Then the rest of the post is more dribble about how we need to consider all things, blah blah.


Overall, Varsoon is wishy-washy. I should have kept on him from the start. He contradicts himself every few posts and is generally wishy-washy on all of his points. I think he's a good person to lynch. Not just wagon for pressure, but I think he's a good D1 lynch.

His response was basically (if I'm interpreting this correctly, correct me if I'm wrong) is him boiling it down to me giving him flak for considering SK. He doesn't directly address a major contraction he made (The "We're not hunting SK" vs "We need to lynch the SK" arguments), but he clarifies by saying he thinks it's something to consider but not rush into right away, which I can't disagree with. I still made a fairly serious (even though it was a point made using sarcasm) allegation that he's acting more like a Serial Killer than lala, which I'd like to hear him address. I also want to hear, Varsoon, why you switched back to me from lala if your read on me never really changed? You say you don't think the pressure is working, but is it not possible that the pressure is working on me because I'm a frustrated as fuck non-scum role (yes, I've resorted to non-scum role instead of town/Citizen to avoid another foolish Titus attack)?

I also think it's worthwhile to note that Titus has no real reasons for hard-pushing my lynch today, and has only made stupid or superfluous arguments against me, and I strongly advise players to avoid her retarded bullshit, for fear that the smell might make you sick.

[Ozgin]

Taly, I defended myself and then built a scum case. I'm at least actively pushing towards scum hunting, and not just trying to weigh in on every situation from the outside. You're playing cautiously, meticulously, and as if you're very removed. That's how I played my scumgame in 180.

[Ozgin]

@Titus - No, you mindlessly repeating yourself and acting childishly and stubborn doesn't make your retarded point any more valuable. It just shows that all you can do is drone on about the same stupid bullshit.

[Ozgin]

@Egg - I gather your point on me is the whole, "It's weird I said citizen, I say it means I'm "town" but the first post says "Citizen," therefore I read the OP."
Well of course I read the OP, Wake asked us to do so at least twice.

@Aenen, You say I keep bringing up old arguments? I'm repeated finding myself having to refute the one argument against me, which I think is stupid in itself and all of it's variants.

I'm gonna read Dragon, I want to understand his wagon really badly but I'm just struggling to grasp it. I'm still uneasy about you, Varsoon, but I don't think we're gonna get anywhere repeatedly arguing about citizens and buddying.

[Ozgin]

Oh screw it.

I'm a JoAT

1x Gunsmith
1x Tracker
1x Bodyguard

And I want dragonspawn killified so I can work with my neighbors on where to use my abilities.

Did... Did this just happen?
I go out for one day and there's 2 hood claims, and a JoAT claim... Holy. Shit.

I want to trust House on the dragonspawn thing. Also, I wanna buy his claim, because

what would he have to lose from claiming? What scum motivation is there for fake-claiming JoAT D1?

Especially multiball, because even if he is a scum, one scum team doesn't know that and will still try to kill him. I don't see any reason to not believe the claim. VOTE: dragonspawn

@House - JoAT typically has 4 abilities that are 1 shot. Did you start with a fourth ability? Don't answer if you don't wanna, but it's strange to me to see only 3.

As for Ozgin, he seems to approach the game with an abrasive, kind of I-am-right mindset and has it dead-set in his head that buddying/sheeping is scummy, but those things seem to genuinely come from his playstyle rather than him trying to aggressively scumpaint me and others as I was thinking before. The fact that he was willing to enter a dialogue with me rather than just deafly tunnel away also indicates that he's trying to come to common ground and understand the game rather than push advantages. Furthermore, if he was on a team with other players, I suspect that I would have been thrown a lot more shade, and yet, most people seem to be townreading me for one reason or another. Even furthermore, his Citizen claim checks out, and I genuinely believe that he actually may be a Citizen and that Titus is likely scum based on the fact that Titus wasn't fully aware of the disparity in Role PMs. The short of this is that we'll know the truth very soon but we can put good stock in Ozgin being town.

You know, I think you've actually got me pegged. I'm kinda hard-headed, and I get really abrasive and defensive. I lose control fairly easily when people come after me with (what I feel are) very stupid reasons for a lynch, and then the way I act makes other people (Like Anen) think I'm scum, not for the (stupid) case but for my reaction to it. I don't honestly usually engage in a dialogue, though. I only did it with you because I felt like I had to prove something to you (because you were so fucking cocky). I kinda wish I could take that post back, it was kinda stupid (the citizen one). I honestly Townread Titus for a long time, and think she's just misguided. I don't think her reasoning holds any water, and it's not worrying me anymore. I've calmed down a little now, and just wanna focus on the game and cut the stupid shit. I'm gonna stop making dumb posts (or try), and try to stop insulting/offending people. I should just do what I did in 180 and chill out with some "medical aid," it seems to help a lot.


PEdit:
@Silverwolf - What's your scumread on me, exactly?

[Ozgin]

@Ozgin

Ozgin-Hi, Do you have any reads on anyone else besides Varsoon? What do you think of the people on your wagon?

Sorry, Baccalaureate rehearsals and stuff.

I think Titus is misguided on my wagon. I think she's pretty towny, she just has no idea what the hell she's talking about right now. I feel like bookitty is kinda scummy for following her mindlessly, and her re-vote back onto me makes no sense. TSO not giving any reason for voting me is strange, as well (other than him cringing at my posts). Varsoon is lurching towards null/town territory again. I don't like his playstyle, it conflicts with mine greatly, but I'm starting to doubt it's as anti-town as I thought. Anen keeps saying he doesn't like my reactions, but I guess you either have to believe it's town flail or you don't, but I'll address that in a second. I'm not sure who all else is on my wagon, but the people on it because of my "citizen claim" are misguided and I think that tunneling me (Titus) for such a mediocre detail (Titus) is frankly (Titus) stupid (Titus).

Ozgin's reaction to his wagon was super, hyper aggressive and defensive. Now, there's town flail and there's scum flail. As town, I get quite upset when I get wagoned for crappy reasons. I also have gotten really fucking frustrated as scum caught out on D1. What I don't like about Ozgin's response is he's not using it to go, "shit, I should give some reads, look at my wagon and convince these guys I'm town" Instead he's yelling at everyone and insulting people. He also pointed out he's frustrated non-scum faction IIRC and that's like "Hey, look at how frustrated town I am folks"

I was really mad because Titus has been pushing for my lynch ever since I said citizen, and that's just a stupid reason to tunnel a vote on me imho. Now, I understand that scum would be angry for being caught early in small-teams multiball, but that's not why I'm angry. I was angry at Varsoon because he was a cocky sonofabitch, and I was angry at Titus for tunneling me for stupid reasons. My flaily and aggressive response is what's being read as scummy, and I guess I understand that. I lost my cool, and I guess that makes me kinda stupid/childish. I can't really argue that (I'm assuming that's what TSO/Anen are scumreading me for), but for those who are voting me because I said citizen, I think you need to really re-evaluate your read on me. If you wanna lynch me for my overblown reaction, that's fine, that's entirely my fault. But if you think my reaction was town-like aggression, then I don't think you should lynch me.

That being said, if Titus were scum I could see her pushing my lynch because she assumes I'm a Citizen, and that way her pool of people to kill to potentially hit enemy scum/town prs is narrowed down, while she gets me (a town) out of the way in a lynch.

[Ozgin]

I would think if she's scum, she would't go after you if she thinks you are a VT. WIFOM I know but her Citizen point is actually one reason I'm townreading her plus her tunnel on you is so town Titus like. I've seen her scum tunnels. They make zero sense and she often has crazy theories like when she tunnelled me as scum (I was town) she wanted to group up with me and others to lynch a person at one point and another time she tried to bargain with House to lynch me and then kill another player he wanted lynched she wasn't even scumreading. Here her push is very focused and in a way that I get. I'm not sure if I should be getting Titus logic and townreading her for that but she's not pulling this crazy scum shit she has before and her town tunnels are just like this.

Well, it was an off-hand theory, which don't help much of anything. But you have to understand that her tunnel on me makes zero sense because her whole argument is that I said Citizen, therefore scummy.

@Boon - What are your points against House/Bookitty, and what're your points for townDragon? Why shouldn't we trust Houses's JoAT claim?

PEdit; Varsoon, order me a Hawaiian, even if there are scum in one of the two neighborhoods. I could go for a pizza pie right about now.

[Ozgin]

@Boon - Can you (or anyone who wants to field this question) tell me what the hell a 5-4-3 setup is?

[Ozgin]

I owe you a pizza for stressing you out, Ozgin.
I'll let you know when my check comes in. :3

Also, yeah, pretty much this:
"What are your points against House/Bookitty, and what're your points for townDragon?"

(Also, we shouldn't trust House's JOAT claim because he only claimed 3 abilities. JOATs have 4.)

I agree, I don't think outing hoods is a terrible idea.

@Varsoon - I'll be waitin, and JoAT doesn't always have to have 4, it can be more or less, but I've teased the idea that House has a fourth ability that he isn't telling us (a good reason to FoS dragon or a protective thing like commuter).

@Silverwolf - How can I interact with you to change your mind?

[Ozgin]

Yeah, and Silver, I tied my reads into my response to one of your posts earlier, as well.

[Ozgin]

UNVOTE:

It just clicked in my head (after reading these painful painful few pages) why I shouldn't scumread dragon.

That's what I get for playing distracted with a billion things and trying to keep track of a large fast moving game at the same time. I need to take notes or something.

So you think dragon is scum because of House's claim and push then? Anything else?

And you say TSO is strange-is this scummy or? You mention anen not liking your reactions? How are you reading him?

You mention Bookitty, Varsoon, Titus. Anyone else?

I swear, if I missed your answers to these questions, I'm giving up and going to bed. LOL

I don't have much of a read on Skybird (I kinda missed that earlier stuff), PB has been extremely inactive with only fluffposts, so I could get behind a lynch there. RC is basically just trolling and I really would like her dead, but that's been every game I've played with her ever (which is only like, 2 or 3). I still have a scumlean towards Kitz from the earlier interactions, but Kitz hasn't been around much enough to change that. I know I mentioned her already, but I'm diggity-down for a bookitty lynch as well. Her scumread on me was identical (parroted) to Titus', and her "scumreads" on dragon/Taly were all just "bad vibes." No real reason, she just repeatedly says, "I feel like they were wishy-washy" or "I don't know, I'm just being pinged."



I don't know I can say Anen/TSO are particularly scummy (especially not Anen) because their scumreads on me are fairly legitimate (I think they both subscribe to fosing me because of my poor reactions). I think TSO's naked vote was weird, and he only explained himself on it once (and it was kinda ambiguous), and has been fairly lurky, so at worst he's a leanscum, at best he's null.

[Ozgin]

The setup speculation here is actually getting annoying and is giving me a headache.

@Bookitty, I wasn't misrepping you (not intentionally, if you feel otherwise I apologize), but I was making a comment to your language. I don't get your townread on Titus, and I didn't like the language you used to describe why you were iffy about dragon/Taly - It felt like you were kinda just arbitrarily putting doubt on them.

I don't know how I feel about Kitz jumping on the Prolapsed wagon, either.

[Ozgin]

Cheetory, I don't think I follow your colorful chain of names ._. Can you explain it for me?

[Ozgin]

I want to hear ProlapsedBrain give more talk before I vote for him, considering he has 8 posts and none of them have any substance (which I can understand being viewed as leanscummy).

@Prolapsed

Colon

Brain - Do you have a readslist with actual substance anywhere? Are you even caught up in playing?

Also, I'm not gonna say much to the Aeronaut situation, I just took my finals a week ago and damn do I know how stressful that is (it was why I was so late confirming my pre-in for the game).

@Aero:

Please post when you can, let us know when you can start reading etc., your contributions would be much appreciated.

[Ozgin]

Spoiler: To Bookitty

Okay, the brouhaha begins with this:

Do you not realize how hard it's going to be for me not to be able to laugh and have fun at night with you in a QT? Being a citizen is lonely ;_;

Ozgin really likes this; he even quotes himself a couple of paragraphs later in the same post, something I've never seen anyone do before. It's worth noting that this was during what looks to be a reachout to former scumbuddies SilverWolf and Cheetory.

A reachout to my former scumbuddies, are you shitting me? SilverWolf has scumread me most of this game and I expressed my distrust for Cheetory early in this game.

Here's a link to Taly (since I'm doing this, I'm going to do it comprehensively):

Also, I feel like Taly is over-analyzing, kinda digging for evidence that might not be there. Does anyone know if this is normal per his meta?

It LOOKS like it's an accusation, but it's actually not. He's accusing Taly of scumhunting too much.

No, I'm accusing him of over-analyzing everything. I've been accused of it. It seemed to me like he was trying to make a point of every single post by every single player.

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

Here we reach critical mass on the citizen thing. I said in the neighbourhood that I thought it was as if Ozgin wanted to fake a townslip. I don't see a reason to stick to this wording over and over unless you've 1) studied your role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a VT to do, or 2) you've studied the sample role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a townie to do.

If you have to "study your role PM extensively" to remember it, you have Alzheimer's. Especially considering all these posts happened in the same day over the course of a few hours.

As far as Titus' vote on me, her feelings seem to be hurt. . Whatever, I don't have time for crying over rhetoric, I have to go to bed so I can scumhunt while I'm awake tomorrow.

This is an attempt to discredit and dismiss what seem like pretty rational suspicions, imo at least.

I pretty much disagree entirely here, I still believe a big part of Titus' push is her feelings being hurt. And I also don't believe the suspicions to be rational.

@SilverWolf - Does it matter that I'm "claiming" Citizen? Even if I were a town PR, I sure as hell wouldn't out as such. Citizen is my way of claiming that I'm town, if that's what you're asking.

This is terrible. It's like he read the sample role PM and then didn't understand it. It doesn't give me faith that he's town in ANY WAY.

No, I understand exactly what a Citizen/Vanilla Townie

is.

I'm saying what

I

meant by what

I

said. It's

my

dialect.

Now to what Titus actually asked me for:

Post 309 is practically an explanation in itself.

I don't know the question this is answering, nor what this explains.

Varsoon's reasons are bad:

That's not what this post meant in context at all. I was saying

why

I voted for Varsoon rather than Cheetory.

I just picked Varsoon out because I didn't like his "reason." You weren't open about your reads, and you're highlighted in my excel sheet (not the same way Varsoon is, but still highlighted) so you're not free of scrutiny yourself, but your reactions and action as a player have pinged you as more town than Varsoon in my opinion.

Cheetory's reasons are good:

Again, not what I said. I said I liked his push. I like the

way

he went about coming after me.

I like Cheetory's push on me, as well. He's seemingly fair and level-headed about it.

Titus's reasons are bad:

They are/were. Still think so, too.

The one, half substantial point you have on me is my misuse of the term "Citizen," and if you can't get over that then I'm just going to fucking ignore you. I'm not arguing the citizen point anymore. Oh, and don't try to say I followed a pattern in a game you didn't follow, unless you want to keep being pathetic and misrepping me. Oh wait, that's your thing this game, isn't it dear?

TSO's reasons are good:

I didn't say that (again), I was speculating as to why he voted for me.

TSO is probably just trying to add pressure to me. I just don't get that there's a fucking wagon on me based on my "misuse" of terminology.

Egg joins the fray:

Egg had a point, I asked him what it was. He told me to look at "the last 5 posts of his ISO," and I did. This was me trying to figure out his case against me, which he said was different than Titus'. Then I addressed what I think was his case. What's your point?

@Egg - I gather your point on me is the whole, "It's weird I said citizen, I say it means I'm "town" but the first post says "Citizen," therefore I read the OP."
Well of course I read the OP, Wake asked us to do so at least twice.

Now things start switching up:

I think Titus is misguided on my wagon. I think she's pretty towny, she just has no idea what the hell she's talking about right now.

I didn't quote all the insults, but there were plenty directed at someone he now thinks is just misguided.

I made my insults out of spite and anger. However, I never fos'd Titus. I always townread her vaguely. In fact, I never once had her highlighted as non-town. I just think her push is on the wrong person for the wrong reasons.

I feel like bookitty is kinda scummy for following her mindlessly, and her re-vote back onto me makes no sense.

I'm scummy for following Titus's logic, while she is just misguided.

Yeah, following her

mindlessly.

Watch the adjectives. I don't think you have any real reason (other than you thinking her tunneling is just what she does as town) as to why Titus is town. You just following her blindly doesn't help a whole lot.

TSO not giving any reason for voting me is strange, as well (other than him cringing at my posts).

What makes a man turn to a life of neutrality?

If you're saying my stance on TSO became neutral, you're wrong. I was saying it was strange that he didn't really pair a reason to it, but I stood (and stand) by the fact that I don't think TSO is scummy for scumreading my reactions so far this game.

Varsoon is lurching towards null/town territory again. I don't like his playstyle, it conflicts with mine greatly, but I'm starting to doubt it's as anti-town as I thought.

Varsoon, you magnificent bastard, you might not be scum after all!

As I came to understand Varsoon's dialogue with me, I lightened up on my (rather biased) scumread on him.

And here's the icing on the cake:

My flaily and aggressive response is what's being read as scummy, and I guess I understand that. I lost my cool, and I guess that makes me kinda stupid/childish. I can't really argue that (I'm assuming that's what TSO/Anen are scumreading me for), but for those who are voting me because I said citizen, I think you need to really re-evaluate your read on me. If you wanna lynch me for my overblown reaction, that's fine, that's entirely my fault. But if you think my reaction was town-like aggression, then I don't think you should lynch me.

This dichotomy isn't really a thing.

Except... it is.

Ozgin's play is the sum total of his play, and people who were suspicious of him for the reiterated Citizen thing (which really does look like a "hey, look at me, I'm obviously town, see my townslip, dammit, look at it!)

I stand by my argument that the citizen thing is a stupid point and I don't think it's strong, and I've been agreed with on that.

can continue being suspicious for the over-the-top overreaction to their initial suspicions.

Not to their suspicions, to Titus' relentless and blind tunneling on me.

The recent drastic change in tone and reads (they might be town after all, and there are good reasons for thinking I'm scummy, but some of those folks are scum on my wagon!) is not filling my heart with visions of puppies and kittens and baby birds, either.

Is it really that far fetched that I realized my reactions were overblown, and I know that they look suspicious? And is it really so crazy to think that maybe I recognize that, and recognize that all I can do is be a productive scumhunter and try to redeem myself for my behavior?

I will say with some degree of confidence that there almost certainly is scum on Ozgin's wagon. That's the nature of multiball. I think he's placating some of the people on that wagon and his responses seem somewhat off given his fury and insult levels earlier on. It's like he realised he was not getting anywhere with the stick, so he now has some delicious candied carrots to share around. I'm sure they aren't poisoned. Well, pretty sure.

Again, I ask: Is it really such a stretch that I recognized my abrasive and explosive behavior wasn't helping anything, and I decided to stop that nonsense? There are people I've been suspicious of who aren't on my wagon too, you know. I don't get your candied carrots analogy, but I did realize I wasn't getting anywhere with my insults and explosions, so I stopped it.

[Ozgin]

No, I understand exactly what a Citizen/Vanilla Townie is. I'm saying what I meant by what I said. It's my dialect.

Can you please point me in the direction of other games in which you have used this term, which you claim to be YOUR dialect?

No, because I haven't played on-site where I've been town in a game that used Citizen (I've only played like 3 games to completion, and I was scum in one of them). I use Citizen when I play (much shorter) games of Mafia on EpicMafia to say town, unless Citizen is actually a role in the game I'm playing on EpicMafia.

Is that really the only point you got from my entire post? :/

[Ozgin]

990 - Kinda smells of over explanation, but with the rate of the thread plus the prior quoted post included, I am ok with saying that could be town.

994 - I like Ozgin's initial reluctance here. He says he "doesn't get the townread on Titus" which is wholly inconsistent with his later comments.

999 - I agree. It is possible Drixx is scum but I am leaning against it.

1002 - I figured that's why you were pushing the wagon Cheetory. I generally don't like pure meta cases but I get why you're pushing it. Plus it's day 1. We are still lynching Ozgin but your push is likely townie.

1008 - Good posting here. Required reading.

1010/1012 - this post by Ozgin sets up inconstencies from before. The hesitance because of Kitz is out the window out of the blue immediately after Bookitty posts. This likely comes from a better him than me space. He says he always townread me, but a few posts prior, he's stating he "doesn't get the townread on Titus". His ISO is full of jabs like this from Ozgin.

1021 - Agreed. I don't think Varsoon would seriously suggest he could clear Ozgin as a full cop. A pt cop gets a positive on Ozgin if he's in a hood (which I believe he is) and a vanilla cop gets positives on goons. So I am not reassured that Varsoon can clear Ozgin, nor would I believe him.

1025/1028 - this isn't Ozgin's first rodeo. Why not look at other games to see if he says citizen or not? I think you said you didn't look at the sample role pm because you thought that scum should be the only ones? Why? Haven't I told you this game is about getting into player's heads, knowing what they know and planning accordingly. Go back, look at the setup from a scum's eyes (or if you're scum town). I am gradually taking the wheels off but you are forgetting my first rule. Eliminate the impossible. Whatever's left, however improbable, must be the truth.

As for the wolf sentiment, I am inclined to agree she's town but not for the reasons you state. My read on her is weaker because she is much more lassez-faire than what I am used to. While refreshing and helpful, it's unsettling. 1028 strongly indicates townWolf or scumWolf faking a town slip.

You misrepresent my posts a lot here. When I say I "don't understand the townread on Titus," it's not that I don't know why you're being townread at all (because I fucking townread you), it's that I

don't like Bookitty's reasons for townreading you.

Her reason for townreading you is you tunneling my incessantly and hurting this game.

@Silver - Elements games are entirely themed, and I left elements at least a whole year before I joined here.

@Bookitty, I can't link you to EpicMafia games because they're much shorter (about 5-20 minutes each game), and they don't save logs. They're in a chat room, and it's all live-action queue.

I'm just going to fucking concede and claim Citizen, I don't give a fuck about it at this point. I was expressing my loneliness as a citizen because I have no powerrole and I'm not in a neighborhood, and it's kinda lonely because there are multiple hoods, multiple scum teams, and a third party, and I'm literally entirely solo (where most of you guys have places out-of-thread to discuss things and such).

After I said it I realized the repercussions (narrowing the town pool for scum to find PRs and opposing scum), but given the fuckton of claims recently, I don't think it's much of an issue.

About Anen, I believe he's referring to the actual text of the role PM which is all black, and the only thing actually green is the name/title of the role (So Citizen is green) but the square border of the area and the text are all black.

[Ozgin]

So, Ozgin are you sticking with being "lonely" as your reason for claiming citizen in 102? If so, how did you know about hoods when no mention had been made of the hoods at that point?

I was referring to loneliness in that I just got out of a game with them in a QT (them being Cheetory in a Scum QT and Silver in a hood), and now I have no QTs. Knowing there are hoods now just made me feel lonelier.

I was trying to not directly claim citizen because I was hoping to drop the whole thing so maybe scum would kill me instead of a PR, but since there have been multiple PRs outing I know I'm not gonna be particularly targetted.

Also, I've played a few games with Boon. He always talks about how he lurks as town and is only active as scum, but I guess if I ask him that he's going to say he's still town just now deciding to be active. ._.

[Ozgin]

@Ozgin, Why would THIS game cause you to be lonely enough to claim citizen? That doesn't make any sense. You had scum games before yet you never felt lonely. Plus in 1116, you said your loneliness stemmed from not being in a hood? That implies you knew others had a hood.

Your post at 1116 states your loneliness was due to not being in a hood. The only way you knew about hoods in 102 is if you were scum and someone told you.

No, see, my loneliness is from just coming out of 180 where I had both a neighbor AND a scum QT. It does not imply I knew about neighbors in this game. Are you serious?

Ozgin was pretty vehement in responding that it wasn't a reach-out to you guys when I characterised it that way.

And I'm pretty sure he's saying that he dislikes being characterized as just having buddied us.

Idfk I know I'm defending Ozgin a lot, and while it might seem dumb because I'm not even strongly townreading him or anything, I just don't like the angles people are choosing to push on him atm. It feels too self-assured, sleazy and misdirect-ish.

This. As far as I'm concerned, reaching out and buddying are just about the same thing. (Especially considering when Varsoon was buddying you, you referred to it as reaching out to you, and so I assumed you meant it in the same connotation).

I imagine if he is town he didn't mean to claim VT here.
You're trying to act like he intentionally thought things through and was like "lol well fuck consequences whatever I don't care".

I am staying that Ozgin was trying to create a narrative and blundering badly as scum.

That 102 makes zero sense from town. His justification in 1116 strongly implies he knew about hoods. He is trying to use 180 as window dressing.

1) I don't know what window dressing is.
2) I already said why 1116 doesn't mean shit in terms of me knowing about hoods.
3) Apparently claiming town is scum. In which case, you should be voting TSO from his first real post.

A reachout is not the same as buddying. If I'd meant to say the latter, I would have. Ozgin has overreacted like this to practically EVERYTHING anyone has said, first vehemently denying it, then saying it's true. Read his ISO, Cheetory. Titus was worth insulting horribly and dismissing as an emotional player but he thinks she's town.

Seriously, read it over.

You said Varsoon was reaching out to you when he did, and he said he was buddying you. I assumed you meant them to be the same.

@boo, why is thinking someone is wrong/playing badly and town a scummy thing for Ozgin to do?

It's not that.

Ozgin used every tactic in the book to discredit and dismiss Titus. He called her emotional, he was aggressive toward her, he dismissed her arguments and refused to address them. Yet he claims to think she is town.

He addressed my arguments rationally, apologised if I thought he misrepped me, and generally treated me with kid gloves. But he claims to think I'm scum.

So explain to me why he's trashing someone he thinks is town while treating someone he thinks is scum so much more nicely?

I didn't discredit Titus, she was tunneling me for stupid reasons and occasionally misrepping me. Of course I'm going to get angry and insult her. And her naked vote immediately followed an analogy that I made she didn't like, it was almost a clear open-and-shut emotional reaction. And I did address her arguments, and then proceeded to dismiss them because they were stupid imo.

I haven't been that way towards you because I started being scum read for my abrasive and explosive nature, so if it didn't work in the past why would I keep doing it now? It's almost like you're saying that I'm scum for

not

insulting you.

@Cheetory, Don't concern yourself with defending me, it's really not worth it. If my citizen claim is taking me town, let it take me down alone. I appreciate it, though, and you seem to understand a lot of my emotions/reactions a lot better than either of Bookitty or Titus.

[Ozgin]

Sigh, Titus. Your push is bad, and it's not worthwhile fighting it anymore. I'm gonna work towards actual progress.

VOTE: ProlapsedBrain

[Ozgin]

>Implying that I was on the lala wagon before I unvoted anyways

Yeah, you keep misrepping my votes. That'll get you far.

[Ozgin]

My concerns about anyone haven't gone.

I'm voting Prolapsed because he continually promises reading and content but it never happens and it's always just fluff.

[Ozgin]

I doubt you missed anything - you said they were voting him for meta. I think that is rather weak considering that there is no content in his posts. They might not be stating they are voting him as a PL but that is the way

I

see those votes.

Bit of Both. Prolapsed is a lurker. That's the policy.
Prolapsed has a history of lurking as scum. That's a meta argument.

Still it sucks when we have someone who claimed scum in thread and scum are flailing to get any sort of counterwagon going.

I'm not scum though, and I never claimed such.

1) Seeing his flip would be much more fruitful for us to see.
2) It'd give me a better clue on my town and scum reads. Since I'm vaguely uncertain on most of them.
3) Ozgin has not done much other than defending himself and talking about the people who has pushed him.
4) This lynch would actually change this game state I mean... This game hasn't evolved much from about 20 pages ago.
5) Really not in favor of Ozgins attitude.

Ozgin, if you're town - then I'm sincerely sorry.

Titus, I'm going to have a few issues with you if Ozgin flips town. :/

1) Fair enough.
2) Pretty much the same as 1, but still fair enough.
3) I strongly disagree, I've provided some reads. I'll post a full readslist before I'm lynched, if it comes to that.
4) I think any lynch would change the gamestate, because if I survive I'll be cleared tomorrow and a townbloc can form pretty easily around me.
5) I can understand not being in favor of my attitude in the early pages of this game, but I don't think my attitude is that bad at this point.

I accept your apology in advance.

Don't have issues with Titus when I flip Citizen

because I flip Citizen

. Heres why:

1 - People make mistakes, Titus is making a big one right now.
2 - Titus is playing with strong conviction, and it can be a powerful scumhunting tool when not used on a Citizen.
3 - There are a few people who are a little more scummy (see Bookitty, Kitz, etc.)

Also, let me ask you - If you understand my bahavior...

Ozgin has been through hell this game, so his behavior is understandable... But if I look at it from face-value... It's pretty anti-town.

Then don't let that be a reason to advocate my lynch (as per point 5 in your list of reasons).

I'm gonna work on building my final readslist for the day, as at this point I've conceded that my death is fairly probable, and in any event I don't want to fuck town any more than I have by making this game a stagnant argument over my citizen claim and dying, thus lowering the townpool. In other words, I'm gonna try to actually be useful this day, as opposed to what I've been doing up to this point.

[Ozgin]

Welp, I apparently am bad at impromptu quoting mechanisms. Sorry Taly, lol.

[Ozgin]

So I wanna post my spreadsheet, but I won't do it without Wake's permission (as the spreadsheet can be edited by me at any time, and I don't want Wake to concern himself with the possibility of it being considered a mechanism in which I could cheat).

@Wake - If I disable public viewing on my spreadsheet at night, may I post a link to it in this thread for use during the days? Of course, after I'm dead I will disable it permanently because I'd no longer be in the game.

But here they are as it stands, Copy/Pasted from my D1 reads in the notes of each cell of the player, and color-coded as it is on the spreadsheet.

Aero/Delta - Replace said was going to read and report back, never did. Literally impossible to read via content, pure null.

Anen - Pretty direct and simple scumhunting, scumreads me for flailing. Is voting me despite not believing I'm the best scum candidate today. Nulltown.

Bookitty - Being (easily) controlled by Titus, practically a parrot on her shoulder. When I did address her full read on me, she took only one of my points out of it, and of course it was about my Citizen claim. Scum.

Boonskiies - Town for reasons.

Cheetory - I think Cheetory's reading of this whole game in general is good. He understood just about every angle I came from, and he recognized the bad way Bookitty/Titus come at people in his 1170 (I remember that post because I thought to myself, "So maybe I'm not crazy here"). Leantown.

Dragonspawn - Town for reasons I've already (purposefully) did not say with someone else.

Drixx - An RVS voe in 1255 made me laugh, and then made me eyeroll. I don't like it. VLA most of the game and comes back to make a vote that he's gonna try to pass off as RVS? Literally makes no sense. Leanscum.

Egg - Started by understanding my Citzen claim, kinda. Then turns to say he doesn't like the claim, and votes me because it's only L-4. Keeps on me, then doubts his vote on me but says it's better than Prolapsed (which I don't get). Never gets off me, goes from light doubt of me, to a vote for pressure, and never changes stances on that ever. Not necessarily alignment indicative with the way the push on me has happened, but I don't personally like it. Null.

FAQ - Came in half a game late. Reasonable case on lala, doesn't actually express why he scumreads me. See his 1045, he only says that "I've gotten scummier," with no reason. Never actually gives a reason to scumread me, either. Nullscum.

House - I buy the JoAT claim. I don't see a scum-reason to do it.

Kitz - Almost exclusively posts fluff. I was scrolling through her ISO and realized I was 75% of the way down by the time I got to any vote, her vote on me, and the first post with any kind of substance. Her reason for voting me was liking 415 (by Titus) which said I voted for myself, which tells me Kitz isn't reading and is being told what to do by someone, or is just generally not paying attention. Rants about her asking about the 14-3-3-1 setup being misconstrued as a fake townslip, but I didn't think people were really even getting at her for it. Scumreads TSO (not a terrible read), but votes Prolapsed for his lack of content (not a terrible vote). Leanscum.

Lala - Early fluffposting and dodging the votes on him. On me for like, a minute, then onto House for seemingly no reason. Poss pick up in the 300s, some light scumhunting directed towards Taly. Says my vote on him was justified and dragon's wasn't, fair enough, very apologetic in his late 300s posts. Says he doesn't wanna be fluffy, but then is fluffy, reacts with "Wtf" for House's claim, a little more fluff and some unexplained "reads." I just don't think lala is putting effort into this game, and then a "Probs Scum" vote on Prolapsed. Last five or so posts have been actually pretty solid. I'm actually gonna chalk lala to a nullscum at worst, because I think he can put in effort and catch up and make strong reads.

Ozgin - Citizen, given.

Prolapsed - Literally just 12 posts of pure fluff, not even an RVS vote. Nullscum.

RadiantCowbell - I actually hate playing with RC because I can never read her. At all. Her play is ridiculous but I've seen it time and time again, and it's always been when she's town. So I just do not know. Null.

Silver - I don't like how I was being town read by her for a long time, then it became suspicion of me amidst her VLA, and then out of nowhere votes me and says "He's still scum." She does retract this at one, as if she read her posts and realized she over-read me, but that's not strange for the Wolf I've played with. Probably struggling with reads a lot thanks to V/LA fun times. Nulltown.

Skybird - Almost entirely fluffposting from posts 15 through to 1090. Only substantial posts are purely defensive. Claims to be scum hunting in 527, but then nothing of the sort up to 1090 and beyond. Leanscum.

Taly - I think a lot of Taly's posting is trying to be purely logical, and seemingly trying to avoid getting on a strong stance of either side. Often promises to read me deeply, but never gets around to it, and for someone so analytical I wouldn't expect them to be okay with lynching me "gun to head" just for the sake of getting more reads. I would expect a stronger stance on one side than another based on all of these long posts you make where you call to specific posts, etc. Nullscum.

Titus - I already extensively said I think Titus is just misguided and blindly tunneling me with her strong conviction, even though her reason for voting me is pretty stupid and she's using bad, "I got fucked once in the past because of a similar situation, so I must do something different this time!" logic. Even so, I still am willing to bet she's at least kinda town-like. But I also am bad at reading players like her. Nulltown.

TSO - 14 posts, a handful of which are about him forgetting this game. Yet a strangely strong conviction on wanting me dead. I'm just gonna assume it's because his team is telling him to want me dead. Scum.

Varsoon - I think he's town for a reason I don't want to publicize further, similar to Dragon and Boon.

VOTE: Bookitty. Now that I've both made a full readslist up to date AND looked at everyone, this is where my vote will schtick.

[Ozgin]

I only have 5 people as Leanscum or Scum, and the other two anti-towns lie amongst my four nullscum (maybe) imho.

[Ozgin]

(And possibly amongst my three null reads, as well).

[Ozgin]

"I dont know how to contribute."

I... What?

If Bookitty won't happen, then yeah, I can go for a VOTE: Lala

Taly, I know I have 9 scum, read my after posts. My Nullscum reads are ones where I'm likely to be dead wrong.
Also, mobile post.

[Ozgin]

Titus,

Often, people commit themselves to a crushing certainty that eliminates doubt.

I just heard that and thought of you . Your certainty that eliminates all doubt in your own scumread is what's going to bring the end of you (and me).

[Ozgin]

I'm just glad town won after lynching me for claiming VT lmao.