New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[Varsoon]

/confirmang
Early SPERM catches the EGG
Teeheee



VOTE: Skybird

I trust Cheetory.

How's it going, shmucks?

[Varsoon]

Not sure about the house wagon, actually. I don't know if the 'pressure' is doing anything.


I'm still trying to figure out how to play these huge-as-hell games. I guess almost half of the playerbase isn't town, so we've got a pretty good shot of that noise.
<3 you guys
Also my name is Kit so when people talk about Kit I double take.

[Varsoon]

Ozgin, I wouldn't consider 3 votes on someone in a 21 player game to be 'fast'.
Especially this early in the game.
Furthermore, I don't understand the suspicion you were throwing onto my slot.

:/

[Varsoon]

Ozgin:
Three votes in 6 minutes is fast for a smaller game. This is the first 10 pages in a 21 player game. Go look at other 21 player games, especially with multiball setups.
I agree that poor reasons for voting are poor.
However, my reasons for following Cheetory on the wagon were trust in both Cheetory

as well as

trust in Cheetory's approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player.
If you think there's better reasons for joining into a wagon on early D1, propose them.
No one's done anything incriminating enough to warrant an actual-factual town-whole wagon.
In fact, every wagon will likely be a bit scum-sided given our teams.
So calling out people on a 3-person wagon is derisive and hurts game momentum.
Furthermore, your post against me tries to scumpaint me over lack of your own understanding. Just because you don't comprehend a motive or a post does not make the poster scum--it only speaks to your own perception. This forces me into assuming one of two things; You lack perception or you are trying to leverage a lynch onto me. I'd rather assume you're a good player. So, I've got to figure that you're aligned differently than I am or you're bad at the game.
So, that's why I called you out. I wanna see your feathers get a bit ruffled here. I want to see if you'll either prove to have made a mistake in reading me or if you'll prove to be someone that town needs to lynch.

P-EDIT:
I'm down for an Ozgin wagon~
VOTE: Ozgin

[Varsoon]

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

You wanna talk rhetoric, I think it's awkward that you're referring to yourself as a citizen rather than town.
In most games, you're gonna be town. In this game specifically, you'd be a citizen if you were town-aligned.
So this speaks towards specific attention payed towards a claimed alignment flavor.
Which, to me, feels stilted, like you double-checked the OP to make sure you were calling yourself the right thing.

[Varsoon]

As it turns out, this is a game and not child-razing. Er, child-raising. <3
But on the real, rather than being caught up in analogies and rhetoric, let's approach the game at hand.
People not on the Ozgin wagon should explain why they want to avoid it.
Otherwise, people should join in!

[Varsoon]

Nope, I'm redirecting attention onto you.
Why are you now referring to your reads as 'town' when you were adamant to adhere to 'citizen' earlier?

I read the things you told me to read, but I disagree with your points.
I'm going to go ahead and restate--no wagon on lynch will be 100% town.
This is a 14-3-3-1 setup.

Your interaction with Titus is a real downer and I'mma have to side with Titus here.

It's D1, first 10 pages.
You've gotta grab onto the little footholds and build momentum.
Chip at the armor
All that noise.

En Garde.

[Varsoon]

Nope, I'm redirecting attention onto you.
Why are you now referring to your reads as 'town' when you were adamant to adhere to 'citizen' earlier?

I read the things you told me to read, but I disagree with your points.
I'm going to go ahead and restate--no wagon on lynch will be 100% town.
This is a 14-3-3-1 setup.

Your interaction with Titus is a real downer and I'mma have to side with Titus here.

It's D1, first 10 pages.
You've gotta grab onto the little footholds and build momentum.
Chip at the armor
All that noise.

En Garde.

The fact that no wagon on lynch will be 100% town isn't being disputed. You're trying to shift the point of your argument. You're moving the goalposts.

My point is that not only did I retract my vote and state that it was a shitty read, but your claim that you "trusted Cheetory's approach" of blah blah blah is bullshit because you never stated that, and even if it's true I couldn't have known that because

you never stated that.

In fact, my second point is that your second post seemingly contradicts that you support building a wagon on someone to build pressure, because you're

against

the House wagon, which was allegedly started because people want to "pressure House" and "get a response from House."

I agree that you need momentum, but no vote should be truly random. That's just bad form. You want momentum or footholds? You read the little discrepancies between peoples' posts and the facts of the game, or between peoples' reasons and votes. That's how you build a good wagon on someone, that's how you make sense of the chaos that is RVS (in my humble opinion).

You don't SAY that a pressure vote is a pressure vote. You just vote. The act of me voting showed that I agree with Cheetory on the pressure he was applying.
I was against the House wagon because it seemingly relied on House conf-towning himself and was rooting itself in that, which is silly.

I think I'm doing just fine with my vote on you. :3

Also, you mention in 185 that this is the most excited game you've had to play as citizen in a normal, implying that you're referring to multiple plays as citizen, as if you're using citizen to just mean town. Does that make sense? It doesn't seem like you're referring to yourself as a citizen just here, and the inconsistency in use of citizen/town is weird.

P-EDIT: What makes House obvious-scum, @

lalaladucks

?


And we can stop debating the citizen thing. We'll know when we know.

[Varsoon]

We can relax and give everyone a chance to post and catch up. No one wants to come back to 10 new pages in a game with 21 players.
Metered pace and focused direction is the most important thing in these large games, imo.

[Varsoon]

@Kitz: I don't feel like dragging out the discussion over if the citizen claim was a slip or not because Ozgin and I could WIFOM on that all day.
My basic point is that the site-meta calls the green-aligned players town. It struck me as awkward that Ozgin would vary from talking about 'town' and 'citizen' (in contexts of multiple games and this one), calling himself Citizen when there was more direct pressure on his slot. There's also a bit of an issue over whether or not that was a VT claim, but I didn't really want to engage on that point because if it was--it's best to keep that from being made too public info. Ultimately, it read to me like Ozgin wanted to claim town, read the OP, and called himself 'citizen' instead of just town. It's not an amazing point, to be honest, but it is

something

. I also wanted to see how Ozgin would handle the pressure of a wagon building on him (I noticed he had a vote on him, which is a lot of the reason why I stopped sheeping my beloved Cheetory).

At this point, I want to see where this goes.
Ozgin seems to participate and 'get excited' as the game heats up in these ways, so regardless of his align, this also gets him posting a bit more (hopefully) which will make reading him easier (hopefully) for all of us (hopefully).

@Ozgin:

What are your points against Laladucks, again?

[Varsoon]

I think LaLa is low hanging fruit. There's a general evasion happening where LaLa isn't really addressing worthwhile points being made against their slot.
Does that make it scum? Eh.
Feels more like path of least resistance.
I'd actually be okay with a lynch there since LaLa isn't providing much for the game.

That said, I really like the most recent back and forth between Ozgin and Cheetory.
Ozgin's very abrasive and feels like he's wheeling back especially in post 300.

@Ozgin

: So LaLa's got a 'shit push' (I'd prefer you actually detail why the push is bad, which I've inferred to be due to the really bogus reasoning that if House isn't 'confirmed town' this early then he must be scum--I think that's absurd reasoning and the push on House is an attempt to drum up pressure, which is what I disagreed with before, since so much of the wagon was rooted in that bogus reasoning and House didn't seem to feel that pressure at all) and has reacted poorly to people's votes and questioning? That's a solid enough reason for voting there. Do you have other reads? Do you think that Scumteams would really pile on someone so much this early?

@Cheetory:

What was the deal with your Aeronaut stuff earlier in the game?

@Bookitty

: You've grown to become a player who I put a lot of stock in. You've got very strong direction as town, and in this game, even if you're scum, you'd need to eliminate the SK and the other team. I want to know your reads and thoughts on the game. I'd like to see you be more vocal. I want your voice to be in this game. In all the 21 player games I've seen, Town only wins when there are dominant town voices. I want to hedge my bets on you, Boo. Get in here!

@RadiantCowbells

: Please don't phone this game in. You're an easy lynch and I'd like you to be more outspoken and here. I don't want to see you either skim by or get lynched based on path of least resistance.

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

Not callin' anyone lurkers--but I do want to call for some people to keep the game's pace in mind and make an effort to contribute from the onset.

@Ozgin:

I mainly wanted to sort out the motivations of people that I was skeptical about who are on the wagon (I'm still not excited about the LaLaDucks wagon's voters) and since your were vocal I decided giving attention your way could be a strong means of figuring some things out.
I feel like I have a stronger grasp on my read on your slot and the LalaDucks wagon. If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Ducks.
VOTE: LalaDucks
It needs to be made accountable.

@Egg:

Damn right I'm buddying Bookitty. Bookitty should be my buddy. If enough buddies get together, they can form a strong pact that'll destroy the scum. At this point, I don't care if my buddies are scum or third party. We need to eliminate an entire team or we lose. I've been in multiball before. If scum and third party double-down on their kills on town (and if town has killing abilities they mess up too), then we could easily lose several of our members after a mislynch. It's best to have everyone working together rather than against each other. I'll make friends and buddies for that cause.

@Bookitty:

<3 I know we've all got busy lives. I just wanna see you throw down in this game and bring the thunder! Take the game at your pace, of course. I just wanna see the quality of play I usually see from you, y'know? A call to arms, of sorts. So far, you've been awesome. I wanna see you keep being awesome.

[Varsoon]

I only care about one thing.
What's your alignment?

[Varsoon]

Oh shit Varsoon wants to work with other people early on in a large game!?
Must be scum!

Except I'm not.
I don't follow your reasoning here, House.
I can also provide you with a shitload of meta evidence where I've done this as town before and not done it as scum.
But meta's dumb so let's not go there.

[Varsoon]

Also, thinking a Varsoon of any alignment makes sense is silly.

[Varsoon]

Hahah.
Duck fluff posting.
Hahahahaaha

[Varsoon]

So far House gives me town vibes. Comes in the game all abrasive and not giving a crap.

I fail to see how that gives you townvibes but I guess so?

@House:

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setup.
Follow me here, okay? Follow me.
That means that regardless of my alignment, I've got 3 other factions to defeat for my wincon.
Regardless of Cheetory and Bookitty's alignments, they've got 3 other factions to defeat for their wincon.
AS TOWN, it's more important than anything to defeat the other factions with a lynch because

that's the only fucking way they will be able to.

So it

absolutely does not matter who allies together at this point in the game

because no matter the overlap, we will have two common enemy factions.
Encouraging

focus

and

direction

in a large game is good this early on.
Encouraging

dialogue

and

interaction

in a large game is good this early on.
Your efforts to call that out as scummy are noted, but I will not have you dismantle my attempt to get this fucking game running, House.
Either get on the helping side of things or be derisive. But know that if you stand against me, you're already dead.

[Varsoon]

How would I be directing kills away from buddies as scum? That would become blatantly obvious the second I died and flipped if I were scum. Bad House.
How would I be keeping myself safe if I was third party in an earlygame alliance? I could still be investigated, killed, and even lynched late game. Bad House.
How would making an earlygame pact be ANY MORE blind than voting independent of that as town? Bad House.

I've explained my motivations, House. I'm trying to encourage direction, focus, dialogue, and interaction among strong players in this game. Furthermore, I'm trying to do so with people that I am townreading. You're hinging a lot of your shit in this notion that I absolutely do not care about who sides with me. In that case, you are ALSO incorrect, because I've not extended the offer to work alongside people that I am actively scumreading. I made mention that, yes, I don't care if I come off as blatantly buddying and I don't care if I happen to be wrong in my reads because THERE IS STILL OVERLAP IN WHO WE NEED TO LYNCH and because I'm still fostering the direction, focus, dialogue, and interaction that will pave the way to a town-win.

So, you can stop with the absolute rubbish where you hyperbolize both the outcomes and the realities of my post.
There's plenty of town motivation here, and you not seeing it only speaks towards your flawed perception (or you trying to get a lynch on me).
So I hope that, at least, you can come to understand where I'm coming from. Continuing to insist otherwise is a scum-claim.
And in that case, you won't make it through the night.

[Varsoon]

I'm going to push my scum-reads, silly. That's what I've been doing.
I'm going to buddy my town-reads. Because even if I am stupid and wrong, it's no big D this early in the game.
I'm saying my actions aren't anti-town and that if you keep trying to insist they are, that's either you not being capable of seeing how town my motivations are or you trying to scumpaint me (because you're scum, I assume, in that scenario). I'd rather err on the side of you not being dense.
<3

If you're actively working against town, it makes you a strong target (given how this playerbase considers you) for investigations and kills.
That's why.

I want people to be able to participate and work together towards these lynches with outspoken input.
Is that so anti-town? :/

[Varsoon]

Jesus, House.
I'm

NOT

working with people regardless of their alignment.
I'm saying that if it turns out my read is wrong, I don't care.
Furthermore, other people's read of me shouldn't matter as much this early in the game because direction, focus, dialogue, and interaction is more important.

Anyway.
We could bicker all damn page about this and we almost have.

I'm more interested in your reads, how you feel about the Lalaladucks wagon (both the slot and the people voting it) and if you'd be interested in being my friend.

[Varsoon]

Got it, Skybird.
I really didn't like how a lot of people were considering house, especially prior to his entrance in-game.

[Varsoon]

Too many people making meta judgment calls and stuff. Felt like a strange House ego-stroking.

[Varsoon]

<3
Get to reading.
Duck's recent posts have been a lot more apologetic, addressed, and cordial. It makes sense, because if Duck kept doing what Duck was doing, Duck would continue to be lynch-fodder.

[Varsoon]

Not liking post 402 by house.

Can you tell us what about it you don't like?

[Varsoon]

That's a cute Procambarus, Wake.

[Varsoon]

@Titus: I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Ozgin and Laladucks turn up as opposite factions in the 3-3-1.
I am pretty sure that they are not on the same team. This might land one of them as town, though.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Ozgin

I felt like Lala was low-hanging fruit but the recent lala posts made me conflicted enough to swap votes.
On one hand, recent posts from laladucks were cogent, apologetic, and generally understandable.
On the other, that's a method of survivalism that SK would almost certainly -have- to employ.
I kinda wanted to put more pressure there but this seems to be all we'll get.

House and Sky are town, imo. I'd like to avoid that for now.

[Varsoon]

Rhetoric is always performed.
Especially so if you've already got associations like that for different approaches.

[Varsoon]

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setting. When I say SK, I refer to that 1.
Why mention it?
Because it exists.

[Varsoon]

@Dragons: I can think a ton of reasons to make a strong wagon on someone early-game.

[Varsoon]

SK's going to worry about their survival the most in this setup, and is very likely bulletproof. They need to avoid being lynched. People who are overly defensive and self-preserving may fit this. In order for us to win, we need to lynch the SK.
Any of the other scum teams can win even if they lose members, but the SK loses if he dies.
They have to play to survive.

@RadiantCowbells: Post! Become relevant! Get in the game. Also, uh, what Titus said.

[Varsoon]

SK is typically given bulletproof, especially in setups with multiple killing abilities.
Actually factually, maybe not everyone has killing abilities?
Maybe I should re-read the OP.

[Varsoon]

We're -not- SK hunting, chill out.
I'm saying that it's legitimate to consider someone's survivalism and defensiveness as a part of perhaps being an SK.
Because we know there's one in the setup.
I'm saying that we should consider everything we have before us, rather than turn a blind eye to certain aspects of the setup when considering players and their play.

[Varsoon]

Dat OZ response.
I'm fine hanging out on it.
Did you think huge text in colors would diffuse the wagon?
:/

[Varsoon]

Ozgin, I'm flattered, but you're really scumpainting me hard. Almost every point you have is some hyperbolized reactionary insult to my points. What's worse is that you're digging hard into things I've grown from and moved away from as well, so a lot of your complaints fall awkwardly in places that just aren't applicable anymore.

Look, it's not like I don't get the motivation. You're being wagoned hard. You need to counterwagon someone and drive the direction of the game away from yourself or you'll be lynched. You're flailing. People notice that. Why not make a big post-by-post case on a player who's integral to your wagon? Big post cases like that earn town-points, right?

What's especially fun is that I called you out on your earlier outburst as a flailing attempt to diffuse your wagon. Your response--going for my throat as hard as possible--is just more of the same. You're trying to do whatever you can to shake people off of you, to change the direction of the votes.

Why are you so concerned with your own survival?
Why is your scumhunting reactionary and insult-driven?
Why are you bringing back up the Citizen nonsense with me?

Spoiler:

I'm not pushing you over that. Talk to Titus about it if you wanna give someone flak. I was just noting the awkwardness in you saying you're a Citizen in a game where town-claiming-town might not pay that much attention to the rhetoric but scum-claiming-town certainly would.

Can you use more buzzwords in your posts that only (poorly) summarize my play so far?
I don't understand why you're voting me. Why are you voting me? Because we've already talked about my buddying plenty, which I've legitimately said is buddying. I don't get what your beef is.

I know you're jealous of me and my beloved Cheetory and Bookitty superbloc, it's okay. <3
Are you capable of understanding that someone can feel half-hearted about things and have their eggs in many baskets? Because when I say 'We need to lynch the SK' and generally advocate being aware of an SK presence, that does not equate to your fiction of me insisting on an SK hunt or only looking to lynch the SK on day 1. As it turns out, I can hunt scum and the SK all at the same time! I can try to form alliances and hunt scum all at once! I can change my ideas on things across time! Woah! It's like I'm an actual human being, capable of having varying interests and investments in multiple things, capable of change and thoughtfulness and even being wrong! Woah!

Ozgin, come on. I don't see a bit of genuine effort in your case on me. It feels half-assed. It feels like a last-ditch flail to try to distract from your wagon, or, at least, force a 1v1. I've been there before, myself. I used to sweat hard when I got a handful of votes in large games. I was too used to the small ones where six votes meant death. Six votes here isn't even halfway to lynch, though. So I want to know why you're sweating so much. I want to know where this aggression against me is coming from. Your points against me are all things I've addressed already, so I'm curious as to why you're insistent on revisiting those old conversations. I want this game to move forward, Ozgin. I believe that direction lies with your lynch. When you flail like this and make what comes across, to me, as a desperate last-ditch effort to survive, it only makes me more confident in lynching you.

VOTE: Ozgin
Y'know. For good measure.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, like I said, I'm not so concerned about people's alignments. I'm fairly certain Bookitty and Cheetory are town here (more certain about Cheetory, actually) but if they turn out otherwise, that's something to worry about D3 or D4. We're in D1. We need direction and focus.

Dragonspawn, you're getting into these little scuffles with people off to the side and have been giving your ideas on things but I don't see you committing to any one thing too hard. What are your convictions this game? You've got to feel strongly one way or the other by now, right?

Also, you mentioned a neighborhood in 533. Are you in a neighborhood? Can I be a part of it? (Please?)

[Varsoon]

Oh, my bad, let me be painfully strident so no one puts their foot in their ass misrepping me;

I care less about misreading people who I want to work with early game for lynches because even if they turn out to be aligned against me, we have a common enemy anyway and having an extra team of peopleto help out towards a lynch wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing in D1 or D2. This does not equate to blatant sheeping, but, rather, as a group that can give the game focus and direction to escape the quagmire of 100 pages that early days often becomes in large games on-site.

[Varsoon]

@Dragonspawn: I feel that. It's cool to suss things out. I don't think the laladucks wagon really has anyone actively pushing it through now, though. Are you content just to stay there? Also, no response to my hood question?
As for Cheetory, it's in his bluntness as well as the early pushes he made. Well, that and something else, but good boys don't kiss and tell <3

@Bookitty: I'll have to double-check Taly, but I agree with you on Dragonspawn--the defense of Ozgin in the last few pages kinda pings with me. I, for one, don't think it's too early to be thinking about associations and links like that. All said, we'll have to see Ozgin's flip before it becomes really damning to either Taly or Dragonspawn in your scenario. So... I take it that you're assuming Ozgin is Thug/Hoodlum?

[Varsoon]

Taly:

Sorry if it seemed like I was ignoring you before. D:
Dragonspawn's interaction and generally removed presence is a bit weird to me, and I could see his defense of Ozgin as buddying given a scum-flip from Ozgin, but, ultimately, I'm married to the Ozgin wagon now. I could see this flipping on both sides of the fence, and while it does ping to me and there are some things that bother me a lot, I feel like I'm missing the 'big thing'. If that makes sense?
So, I'm skeptical. I want to know more.

[Varsoon]

If you aren't the cockiest motherfucker I've ever seen.

I dunno, this is pretty much the most satisfying thing for me.
I'm all in on ya, Ozzy~

It's a shame you moved right into insult, then denial, then rationalizations.

@Dragonspawn:

I've got a hunch towards the reason for TSO joining on, but, yes, that could use some articulation.

[Varsoon]

<3 Varsoon
I hate you and will call you bad.
I don't understand your points on me!
In reaction to what I do understand; Nuh-uh.
I'm totally composed! Huge orange font and expletives reflect this!
You're just insulting me instead of addressing my points that you already addressed!

Ehehe, sorry, just having fun here.
But on the real.
I've already addressed all your points, Ozzy.
No need to get so flustered.

@Dragonspawn: I am what I eat, man.

[Varsoon]

It's a game, we should have fun from time to time.

On the real, I'm all about this Ozgin thing.
But I don't want to mire us down in like, a hundred pages of Varsoon v Ozgin.
So I'mma try to avoid that.

[Varsoon]

@Ozgin: I already responded to all of those, man, go spend some more time in my ISO! Back to the ISO you go!
Also, your avatar looks like the dude who says that it's all Kamen Rider Decade's fault. Do you know the guy?

@Dragon: I wasn't sleeping with Cheetory, I was sheeeeping with Cheetory. <3
...do you have a neighborhood? You keep dodging me here, man.

@Italy: <3
I have a secret tinfoil theory that Dragon is super-scum, but I am still hatching these eggs.

[Varsoon]

Woah, the laladucks wagon really folded into being a dragonspawn wagon, huh?
Even eclipses the Ozgin one.
Hm.
Wonder if there's any possibility of just folding over and going all in on one or the other.

@Ozgin: Don't be droppin' those ultimatums! This isn't Shards of Alara, bro.
Can you make a bulleted/numbered and simplified list? We can do this via spoiler entries so we don't clog the thread. <3

[Varsoon]

In the time it took you to not do what I asked, I made you this.


I guess I'll do the thing you asked instead because I'm cool.

[Varsoon]

I know, it's nuts, it's like we both don't want to have to repost the things we've already written!
Don't fret, I'm working on doing both of our jobs. :3

[Varsoon]

Fiction, Ozgin! Lie no more!
I'm already finding myself restating a lot of my posts while going through your slog!
You should've made it accessible. This is a forum after all.

While I do this, can you, I dunno, do anything else? It's not good for the game direction if people come back to a page of us dancing this clumsy waltz.

[Varsoon]

Gonna go see mad max.
I didn't get to your last part, but yeah.
Let's not bog down the game with crap.

Spoiler: I can't put this in an accessible format in time, it's my birthday

Ozgin:
Three votes in 6 minutes is fast for a smaller game. This is the first 10 pages in a 21 player game. Go look at other 21 player games, especially with multiball setups.
I agree that poor reasons for voting are poor.
However, my reasons for following Cheetory on the wagon were trust in both Cheetory

as well as

trust in Cheetory's approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player.
If you think there's better reasons for joining into a wagon on early D1, propose them.
No one's done anything incriminating enough to warrant an actual-factual town-whole wagon.
In fact, every wagon will likely be a bit scum-sided given our teams.
So calling out people on a 3-person wagon is derisive and hurts game momentum.
Furthermore, your post against me tries to scumpaint me over lack of your own understanding. Just because you don't comprehend a motive or a post does not make the poster scum--it only speaks to your own perception. This forces me into assuming one of two things; You lack perception or you are trying to leverage a lynch onto me. I'd rather assume you're a good player. So, I've got to figure that you're aligned differently than I am or you're bad at the game.
So, that's why I called you out. I wanna see your feathers get a bit ruffled here. I want to see if you'll either prove to have made a mistake in reading me or if you'll prove to be someone that town needs to lynch.

P-EDIT:
I'm down for an Ozgin wagon~
VOTE: Ozgin

So this was prompted by a vote and unvote on him from me, and I felt this was a huge and blow-uppy response to a very small event.

No, this was prompted by your play through the game and your scumpainting of me. I wanted to direct pressure onto you. The fact you felt this was a huge response means you felt the pressure. I don't like that you're trying to play this off as me having some blow-up response. This is pretty casual fab, broheim.

He refutes me voting point about him blindly trusting Cheetory with some nonsense about how he "trusts Cheetory's approach of putting pressure on players on a wagon of a questionable player," which there was no indication of. In fact, he soft-buddies Cheetory later (I think he calls him things like, "my beloved Cheetory.").

I've already talked about the 'buddying' thing. I've actively tried to make allies with Cheetory and Bookitty so far. This was outright claimed in the thread and discussed to death. Here, you're trying to rely heavily on a scum association with the rhetoric of buddying, but I'm not even being subtle. I'm literally saying that I trust Cheetory's judgment. It's also incredibly dismissive to blow off my explanation of agreeing with putting pressure on an early wagon/questionable player as 'nonsense'. C'mon, dude. Uncool.

Then he brings up a point about how every wagon is going to have scum on it, which wasn't a point I was arguing (as if he pulled a random topic out of his ass to discuss). He follows this with some backhanded dribble about how I'm either stupid/wrong or a scum, and he'd "rather believe that I'm a good player" so he assumes I'm scum.

You were arguing that it was scummy to buddy up with players, right? In this post, I'm making a defense for an early alliance as well as the observation that even if we lynch scum, it won't be a 100% town wagon. I was decrying your hesitance over co-operation because I found it against the point of the game and likely to mire us in a directionless argument rather than moving forward with good content wagons. I'm saying that if you continue to stand against co-operation (which you have), you're only a hindrance to town's efforts, which likely does make you wrong/stupid or scum. Sorry if that's too insulting. Town needs focus and direction, especially on D1.

He closes with something about ruffling my feathers, and he mentions how it's "why he came after me," like he's trying to spin this post like it's an attack rather than a defense, but he's really just defending himself almost without prompt. In fact, he only voted me in a P-Edit to hop on a wagon.

I hopped on here because Titus voted for you and I realized this would be a good chance to shift direction and apply pressure to your slot. That's why it came in a P-Edit. Furthermore, this is me saying this is largely a pressure vote. And it is an assault. I'm actually fine at defending myself while persuing other interests and pushes. I decided that I want to push you. Don't try to spin this as some OMGUS-defensive rubbish, because it is not.

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

You wanna talk rhetoric, I think it's awkward that you're referring to yourself as a citizen rather than town.
In most games, you're gonna be town. In this game specifically, you'd be a citizen if you were town-aligned.
So this speaks towards specific attention payed towards a claimed alignment flavor.
Which, to me, feels stilted, like you double-checked the OP to make sure you were calling yourself the right thing.

Make note of how he starts the whole "citizen" speculation here. He makes it a point to say he thinks I "checked the OP to make sure I was calling myself the right thing," yes?

Also, you mention in 185 that this is the most excited game you've had to play as citizen in a normal, implying that you're referring to multiple plays as citizen, as if you're using citizen to just mean town. Does that make sense? It doesn't seem like you're referring to yourself as a citizen just here, and the inconsistency in use of citizen/town is weird.

And we can stop debating the citizen thing. We'll know when we know.

Now look how he says here (referring to the same post) that he's recognizing exactly what I did:

Referring to myself as a citizen and using it to just mean town.

If he's so skeptical of my usage of the word "citizen," then how did he perfectly recognize exactly what I was actually meaning? He's using the citizen point to argue against me to some audiences, but then here he's recognizing what I really meant.

Okay, you seem to be misunderstanding my point entirely. Let me walk you through it, maybe we can come to common ground?
You made the aforementioned post saying that you're excited to play as a citizen in normal.
I thought that Citizen was an awkward choice of words here.
I went to the OP to make sure that was the flavor of the game
Turns out that's exactly the only sample role PM given
I figure that if you were scum trying to stick to the flavor, you might have had to check the OP in a similar way for versimilitude
I figure that if you were town just claiming town, you wouldn't be so precise with the language
This is later backed up when you start being less precise with the language, using town interchangibly, which makes me feel like the citizen thing was more forced/awkward especially after calling you out on it.
So this isn't some disparity of what you 'meant' when using the word Citizen, this is an issue of you not having a town role PM and then checking the OP to see what town was called rather than just saying you are town.
Again, this is a weak-as-fuck point and honestly pretty null. I was just using it as a means to apply pressure to you to see how you would handle it. I later come out and say that.

Then he tried to sweep it away with "we can stop debating the citizen thing, we'll know when we know," but now it's the one and only prominent point against me for my wagon.

No, it isn't. The reason I am still driving your wagon is because you're abrasive, overtly defensive, quick to misappropriate other's posts, and generally terrible at handling pressure. That, coupled with awkward interactions with other players (your tunneling versus how some players seem to come out of the woodwork to defend you), is a lot of why I'm pushing you still. Ultimately, I think you've got a good chance of flipping scum, so I want for your lynch. Plus, I kinda just want you not to be in the game due to how anti-town you've been with actively trying to bog down the game and hinder town focus (via insistence on long posts, arguments that sprawl pages, so on and so forth).
Titus was focused on the citizen deal--but not in the same way I was (Titus saw your citizen claim to be a Vanilla Town claim and called it out for being very awkward) but is also pushing you for several of the reasons above, I believe.

My basic point is that the site-meta calls the green-aligned players town. It struck me as awkward that Ozgin would vary from talking about 'town' and 'citizen' (in contexts of multiple games and this one), calling himself Citizen when there was more direct pressure on his slot. There's also a bit of an issue over whether or not that was a VT claim, but I didn't really want to engage on that point because if it was--it's best to keep that from being made too public info. Ultimately, it read to me like Ozgin wanted to claim town, read the OP, and called himself 'citizen' instead of just town. It's not an amazing point, to be honest, but it is

something

. I also wanted to see how Ozgin would handle the pressure of a wagon building on him (I noticed he had a vote on him, which is a lot of the reason why I stopped sheeping my beloved Cheetory).

At this point, I want to see where this goes.
Ozgin seems to participate and 'get excited' as the game heats up in these ways, so regardless of his align, this also gets him posting a bit more (hopefully) which will make reading him easier (hopefully) for all of us (hopefully).

And right after he talks about how we can stop debating about it, and how I used it as if it meant town, he's using it to argue against me. (Also, here's the beloved Cheetory post I remember seeing). But then the

next fucking sentence

is about how he doesn't want to over publicize the point,

even though he's still bringing it up.

Then he reiterates the stupid argument that it's me checking the OP to make sure it's the right thing to say, and backpedaling yet again to call the point "not amazing, but something."

Already addressed in earlier points. I'm reiterating and explaining here. I fail to see how that's 'backpedaling'. Here, I don't want the game to become ten fucking pages talking about this Citizen thing. That's why I'm trying to nail down what I meant by it because it seemed like people were still confused and because I wanted to be done with it.

Then he talked about how he wanted to get me posting more "hopefully" (even though I was posting a lot) and then implies that everyone is having trouble reading me, which wasn't a thing at that time. He's like trying to gain a friendship with everyone and pull them all towards me.

Crazy, right! It's like I want more people on your wagon for more pressure and maybe even a lynch! And I always want more content from players, bro.

I think LaLa is low hanging fruit. There's a general evasion happening where LaLa isn't really addressing worthwhile points being made against their slot.
Does that make it scum? Eh.
Feels more like path of least resistance.
I'd actually be okay with a lynch there since LaLa isn't providing much for the game.

That said, I really like the most recent back and forth between Ozgin and Cheetory.
Ozgin's very abrasive and feels like he's wheeling back especially in post 300.

@Ozgin

: So LaLa's got a 'shit push' (I'd prefer you actually detail why the push is bad, which I've inferred to be due to the really bogus reasoning that if House isn't 'confirmed town' this early then he must be scum--I think that's absurd reasoning and the push on House is an attempt to drum up pressure, which is what I disagreed with before, since so much of the wagon was rooted in that bogus reasoning and House didn't seem to feel that pressure at all) and has reacted poorly to people's votes and questioning? That's a solid enough reason for voting there. Do you have other reads? Do you think that Scumteams would really pile on someone so much this early?

@Bookitty

: You've grown to become a player who I put a lot of stock in. You've got very strong direction as town, and in this game, even if you're scum, you'd need to eliminate the SK and the other team. I want to know your reads and thoughts on the game. I'd like to see you be more vocal. I want your voice to be in this game. In all the 21 player games I've seen, Town only wins when there are dominant town voices. I want to hedge my bets on you, Boo. Get in here!

@RadiantCowbells

: Please don't phone this game in. You're an easy lynch and I'd like you to be more outspoken and here. I don't want to see you either skim by or get lynched based on path of least resistance.

So he makes another post that is internally flip-floppy here. He starts with this little thing about Lala just being and easy lynch, but then says he wouldn't mind it because Lala isn't providing enough.

How is that flip-flopping? Lala was an easy lynch because of how apparently scummy Lala was. I was willing to go wagon lala to add more pressure there and hopefully get lala to produce worthwhile content or die.

He calls me abrasive and claims that I'm "wheeling back" when I was merely answering Cheetory's questions. He then goes on to agree with my points on Lala (kinda contradicting the whole, "Lala is just easy" concept), and asks me about my reads or whatever, so it's almost like he's agreeing with me and saying that I'm correct, but apparently still sticking to the vote on me. K.

You came off as pretty defensive in tone when I was reading that post, ergo the 'wheeling back'. Agreeing with your points doesn't contridict that Lala is easy at all--I'm agreeing that you're pushing Lala for okay reasons and that it'd be easy to push Lala. In your mind, does an 'easy push' not equate to a player being scum? I don't understand this sentiment. I'm saying that you're voting Lala for reasons that are understandable, but Lala has made himself an easy target, which means that you'd easily look like town for pushing Lala. I was hoping to discern if you were just falling in with people that were lobbing easy votes with easy reasoning or if you had something more to add to that wagon.

The rest of this post is him stroking Bookitty and RadiantCowbells and saying, "Oh please, please please please friends, I want you to be vocal and active! I truly value your opinions, please come play!" (which Bookitty actually took the bait and said his reaching out to him was towny, lol). This is where his hard-buddying becomes really flamboyant.

I don't really want RC to be my buddy. I want RC to produce content because RC has problems with content production.
I want Bookitty to produce the content I usually get from Bookitty because it helps me solve games. I want to ally with Bookitty because Bookitty is a player that is generally fun, agreeable, and has strong forward momentum in games. If that's bait, then fuck the idea of a fun mafia community. I, for one, would prefer players have the capacity to work together rather than being a bunch of abrasive, cynical, with-held jerkbags. Together, we have fun and thrive and can push games in a fun direction. That's what I'm calling for here. I'm not trying to be subtle about it at all, and I don't understand why you have such an insistence on this sort of camaraderie being scum-driven.

Not callin' anyone lurkers--but I do want to call for some people to keep the game's pace in mind and make an effort to contribute from the onset.

@Ozgin:

I mainly wanted to sort out the motivations of people that I was skeptical about who are on the wagon (I'm still not excited about the LaLaDucks wagon's voters) and since your were vocal I decided giving attention your way could be a strong means of figuring some things out.
I feel like I have a stronger grasp on my read on your slot and the LalaDucks wagon. If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Ducks.
VOTE: LalaDucks
It needs to be made accountable.

@Egg:

Damn right I'm buddying Bookitty. Bookitty should be my buddy. If enough buddies get together, they can form a strong pact that'll destroy the scum. At this point, I don't care if my buddies are scum or third party. We need to eliminate an entire team or we lose. I've been in multiball before. If scum and third party double-down on their kills on town (and if town has killing abilities they mess up too), then we could easily lose several of our members after a mislynch. It's best to have everyone working together rather than against each other. I'll make friends and buddies for that cause.

@Bookitty:

<3 I know we've all got busy lives. I just wanna see you throw down in this game and bring the thunder! Take the game at your pace, of course. I just wanna see the quality of play I usually see from you, y'know? A call to arms, of sorts. So far, you've been awesome. I wanna see you keep being awesome.

Here he claims he targeted me because I'm vocal, which is stupid because there are plenty of other vocal players.

...so it's stupid to try to discern the reasons of one of my scumpile for being on a wagon I think is too-easy and might be a VI? I targeted you because I new you would respond (due to your vocal nature), I did not understand your reasons for voting laladucks, and because I wanted to put pressure on you.

Then, he keeps acting all apprehensive about the lala wagon

as he fucking climbs aboard it.

Then he says that, after he's read me and lala both, he feels that lala is more worthwhile to lynch. I agree, then and now, but he goes back on that pretty easily.

Yeah, it's almost as if I'm unsure of if lala is scum-being-dumb or town-being-scummy-and-an-easy push and I hesitantly decide to pressure it, ultimately with the idea that it'll at least give us some worthwhile info on flip.

Then he goes on to defend his buddying, and further perpetuate it by doing it some more with Bookitty. At this point, he's damn near flirting!

We've been over this. Are you jealous, Ozzy? I can flirt with you, too~<3
I'm sorry we're so back-and-forth this game. Do you like pizza? I'll buy you one with my Tax Refund when it comes in, if ya want~

Oh shit Varsoon wants to work with other people early on in a large game!?
Must be scum!

Except I'm not.
I don't follow your reasoning here, House.
I can also provide you with a shitload of meta evidence where I've done this as town before and not done it as scum.
But meta's dumb so let's not go there.

He sarcastically defends his buddying as working with other people. Then he does this weird, "I can provide meta!" followed by "Meta's dumb, so let's just not." That implies he either doesn't have the meta to show, or he's trying to get people to stop asking questions.

I do have the meta to show, but digging up games is boring and tedious. Furthermore, I don't put much stock in meta, so while I'd be willing to pull some links out, I really would prefer not to. Ergo, the post made here.

So far House gives me town vibes. Comes in the game all abrasive and not giving a crap.

I fail to see how that gives you townvibes but I guess so?

@House:

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setup.
Follow me here, okay? Follow me.
That means that regardless of my alignment, I've got 3 other factions to defeat for my wincon.
Regardless of Cheetory and Bookitty's alignments, they've got 3 other factions to defeat for their wincon.
AS TOWN, it's more important than anything to defeat the other factions with a lynch because

that's the only fucking way they will be able to.

So it

absolutely does not matter who allies together at this point in the game

because no matter the overlap, we will have two common enemy factions.
Encouraging

focus

and

direction

in a large game is good this early on.
Encouraging

dialogue

and

interaction

in a large game is good this early on.
Your efforts to call that out as scummy are noted, but I will not have you dismantle my attempt to get this fucking game running, House.
Either get on the helping side of things or be derisive. But know that if you stand against me, you're already dead.

Make sure that when you read this post, you memorize this sentence, especially the underlined: "So it

absolutely does not matter who allies together at this point in the game

because no matter the overlap, we will have two common enemy factions."

He's still defending the idea that buddying = working together to catch scum. He's claiming to trying to be "getting this game running," which is bullshit and he knows it. He's just trying to make friends with everyone so nobody want's to lynch him.

I'm hardly trying to make friends with everyone. Again, you're refraining to hyperbole and loose conclusions. I'm trying to make a tight alliance so that I have some people to have fun with and give direction to the game. If anything, wouldn't these actions paint a bigger target on my head? Especially if I lead a bunch of lynches on town? It's not like I'm being subtle. It's not like I'm asking people to defend me or any shit like that. I'm trying to move the game forward--to my wincon. This isn't in some cynical scum self-interest. We could argue this shit all day, though, which is a distraction town doesn't need. It's a playstyle difference that you'll have to nut up and deal with.

Jesus, House.
I'm

NOT

working with people regardless of their alignment.
I'm saying that if it turns out my read is wrong, I don't care.
Furthermore, other people's read of me shouldn't matter as much this early in the game because direction, focus, dialogue, and interaction is more important.

Anyway.
We could bicker all damn page about this and we almost have.

I'm more interested in your reads, how you feel about the Lalaladucks wagon (both the slot and the people voting it) and if you'd be interested in being my friend.

Well, did you memorize that line? The line he perfectly contradicts with, "I'm not working with people regardless of their alignment," even though he said exactly that. Then he tries to just shuffle away this argument with, "Anyway, we bickered too much about this, what are your reads?" - Kinda what he did about the arguments against me using the word "citizen" in place of "town." And he tries to quickly go over to the topic of reads, exactly what he did with me.

Again, for the sake of direction, I try not to get mired in pointless arguments that distract from the game. Also, you don't seem to understand my point about working with people regardless of alignment. I spell it out in detail in post 562. Go read that.

VOTE: Ozgin

I felt like Lala was low-hanging fruit but the recent lala posts made me conflicted enough to swap votes.
On one hand, recent posts from laladucks were cogent, apologetic, and generally understandable.
On the other, that's a method of survivalism that SK would almost certainly -have- to employ.
I kinda wanted to put more pressure there but this seems to be all we'll get.

House and Sky are town, imo. I'd like to avoid that for now.

Back to me, and it's not even like his reads changed on me. There's no indication of that. He's just jumping on me because he wants to get on a new wagon.

He's saying he doesn't think lala is low-hanging fruit anymore. The next two lines are saying, "Yeah he's good, but he could also be bad." He concedes his own point with some dribble about him wanting to pressure lala more and failing, and that (I guess) is supposed to be the reason he switched to me? Blegh, icky votes are icky.

We're in a 14-3-3-1 setting. When I say SK, I refer to that 1.
Why mention it?
Because it exists.

"Oh I'm bringing up the SK because he exists! We have to worry about 1 of 7 scum, and the 1 who is alone and working by themselves as opposed to the two scumteams of 3 who are working together, solely because he exists!"

SK's going to worry about their survival the most in this setup, and is very likely bulletproof. They need to avoid being lynched. People who are overly defensive and self-preserving may fit this. In order for us to win, we need to lynch the SK.
Any of the other scum teams can win even if they lose members, but the SK loses if he dies.
They have to play to survive.

@RadiantCowbells: Post! Become relevant! Get in the game. Also, uh, what Titus said.

Prepare for another one of his contradictions between posts: He says, "In order for us to win, we need to lynch the SK." Remember this.

He's making light allegations towards lala being SK and making brazzen setup speculations in regards to the SK.

However, I kinda wanna just point out that the way SKs are successful are more or less by hard-buddying everyone and being the universal friend. If they're BP, they don't have to worry about NKs, so their only real scare is being lynched. That sounds awfully familiar... I was just reading someone's ISO who does this. But anyhow...

We're -not- SK hunting, chill out.
I'm saying that it's legitimate to consider someone's survivalism and defensiveness as a part of perhaps being an SK.
Because we know there's one in the setup.
I'm saying that we should consider everything we have before us, rather than turn a blind eye to certain aspects of the setup when considering players and their play.

"We're -not- SK hunting, chill out." -> What a lovely thing to follow "We need to lynch the SK." Then the rest of the post is more dribble about how we need to consider all things, blah blah.


Overall, Varsoon is wishy-washy. I should have kept on him from the start. He contradicts himself every few posts and is generally wishy-washy on all of his points. I think he's a good person to lynch. Not just wagon for pressure, but I think he's a good D1 lynch.

[Varsoon]

A lot of the later stuff, like where you give me flak for considering SK possibilities and then saying we're not exclusively doing an SK hunt, just seems to be you being pedantic over the fact that I'm capable of committing to something but not having that be my entire commitment.
If that makes any sense?
Chances are, for a town win, we will need to lynch the SK at some point.
We should play with an eye towards that.
I'm not proposing we drop everything and try to find the SK today.
I'm saying that I could see a certain player's actions (lala's shift to being very apologetic/defensive) as SK behavior.

Basically, you keep making this mistake where you think I'm dealing in absolutes.
Which is kinda just actually straight up false.


P-EDIT:
Sweet. I am excited to see it.

[Varsoon]

MAD MAX WAS AMAZING. I was blown away. I did not think there would be a way to see a fully actualized Mad Max film nowadays without it being too camp or niche, but it really transcended the medium. The visual storytelling, strong pacing, and social relevance were all so perfectly nestled into the realm of Mad Max. Great film. Super visceral. Easily the best movie I've seen in years.


Back to the game, haha.

@Ozgin:

You're actually a cool guy, now that I've gotten to talk to you.
We'll have to chat postgame about approach to the game and strategies. I think we fundamentally differ in our approach and that's causing us to butt heads a ton. Now that I've had some time to get in your head space, though, I'm actually thinking you might be town.

Sorry Titus, but I can't ride this wagon forever. I hope you can see through the initial abrasiveness and realize Ozgin's points are actually really good. The Ozgin wagon sucks.

Meanwhile, I've got some info that might confirm Dragon as scum but also could really out a few roles, so let's just say... Dragon is 95% scum in my book, and the Dragon wagon is loaded with people that I actually am willing to put good faith in. Furthermore, Dragonspawn's flip will give us much more worthwhile info (especially so if he's scum. I'll spill the beans regardless on my crack theory after the dragon flip).

VOTE: Dragonspawn

Let's do this. Full throttle.

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

Dragon, I want to know what you've found out.
Asking questions and trying to discern things is fine, but asking questions just to look active and not really doing anything, well...
That's kinda like putting up the illusion of being a helpful guy.
And I'd rather just have town be full of -actual- helpful guys.

[Varsoon]

Observation point. People resisted Ozgin the Obvscum because it was too early to get a large wagon. Yet Dragonspawn has a wagon out of nowhere that is larger.

Noted. Total shit.

Taly, I'm looking at you in particular.

I actually don't think Taly's totally throwing up dust. Dragon's pinged to me because there's a lack of commitment there, like Dragon is being very cautious, just playing it safe. Taly's articulation fits and explanations work for me. I don't see what you see with Taly. Maybe point out the specifics with what's bothering you with Taly?

I believe the Dragonspawn wagon is genuinely just another wagon that's arisen due to Dragon's play. It doesn't seem like a counterwagon to Ozgin at all. Maybe you can illuminate what you're seeing?

[Varsoon]

If he flips town then I really, really need to talk to him in Twilight.
That's about all.

[Varsoon]

You have 26 pages.
That's enough.

[Varsoon]

I don't expect you to have figured out the game.
I expect you to have more content, especially since you've admitted that your approach is to ask questions.
What did you get from asking those things?
How have those answers influenced your reads?

There's a big difference between feigning investigation/effort and actually doing investigation/putting in effort.
In the last three pages I went head-to-head with Ozgin and was able to divine a lot about his approach to the game, his role, how he feels about several aspects of the game, and how his logic works.
Through that dialogue, I am now able to put a lot more confidence in my townread in Ozgin, when just pages ago I wasn't convinced he was town.
That's what I accomplished with one player in the space of about five posts back-and-forth of actually trying to interact and understand him.
I want to know what your results are. I want to see what you've accomplished.
'cus right now, I'm getting a whole lot of nothin' outside of some faint reads.

[Varsoon]

Townpool is Bookitty, Cheetory, Drixx, Egg, House, Kitz, Ozgin, Silverwolf, Skybird, and Taly.

Scumpool is Dragonspawn, laladucks, T S O, Titus

Everyone else needs to contribute a bit more (but the game has only been up for like 3 days so it's no big).

Cheetory is trustworthy. I tested him a few ways.
Ozgin is trustworthy. I tested him in a few ways.
Titus has a few things I need to work out with Titus when Titus is around and I'm around. We need to to pow-wow. I'm scumreading her until then.

I'm not sure where to place Boonskies and Radiant Cowbells. They tend to be VI-status in most games we've shared. I know Boonskies has some weird weakness for hammers and RC likes to post really strange and potentially incriminating fluff. To be honest, I usually trust these sorts to sort themselves out and hopefully not make it to a LYLO situation.

I've got some other things stewing, but I'm waiting for a mod PM and hoping that stuff will work out naturally.

I can elaborate on any of these points, too. :3

[Varsoon]

Huh. People posted some pretty thick stuff between last night and now! I hope I can address everyone.

@Anenien:
Here's some info on my scumpool and why they're there:
Dragonspawn for reasons I've been bringing up
TSO for now being much of a presence AND slapping a naked vote onto the Ozgin Wagon (Needs pressure, really)
Titus for clutching very hard to the Ozgin-Citizen thing, but I also feel like Titus was really quick to townread me and I may've turned a blind eye to her because of that. There's a few very early Titus posts that ping to me as well.
Here's why I trust these people (for now at least):
Cheetory has had three good chances to absolutely turn the game around on me and easily pull a lynch on me. Instead, he's stuck to his guns, consistently pressured players that he felt needed the pressure, and been generally helpful to keeping the gamestate from being bogged down. He's asked good questions and made tangible results and progress from those questions.
As for Ozgin, he seems to approach the game with an abrasive, kind of I-am-right mindset and has it dead-set in his head that buddying/sheeping is scummy, but those things seem to genuinely come from his playstyle rather than him trying to aggressively scumpaint me and others as I was thinking before. The fact that he was willing to enter a dialogue with me rather than just deafly tunnel away also indicates that he's trying to come to common ground and understand the game rather than push advantages. Furthermore, if he was on a team with other players, I suspect that I would have been thrown a lot more shade, and yet, most people seem to be townreading me for one reason or another. Even furthermore, his Citizen claim checks out, and I genuinely believe that he actually may be a Citizen and that Titus is likely scum based on the fact that Titus wasn't fully aware of the disparity in Role PMs. The short of this is that we'll know the truth very soon but we can put good stock in Ozgin being town.

@Taly:
My theory has a bit to do with Boo's theory in that I'm trying to think of how House has structured the game and how the balance of the two bigger factions is handled. It also has a lot to do with my role and the role that I'm fairly sure that Dragons has.
To say more on it before we get a flip from Dragons would out a lot of info--not just about my role, but also potentially about Dragon's and maybe even some other players'. I don't want to do that if I can avoid it.
I don't put much stock into Meta. I know other people do, but I really don't mind too much for it. I don't have a good impression of Dragon's scumplay from previous games, though. I'd have to look it up.
Basically, if Dragons is our lynch, I hope that I can talk to him about his role a bit before he's gone for good. He's been really awkward and hesitant about it so far, which is what pings a lot to me too.

@Silverwolf:
So... I take it you think that Dragonspawn and Ozgin are both scum, either aligned or...?
Ozgin's not part of my townbloc. Ozgin doesn't see the value in working with other players, and so we probably won't be working side-by-side this game. That said, I will be putting a bit more stock in Ozgin's opinion as a town opinion (not necessarily a correct opinion, but town nevertheless) until it's proven that he's not the Citizen he claims to be.

@Skybird:
I agree that Kitz needs more pressure. I don't think we can really do that right now given the intense focus we have on Ozgin/Dragonspawn. What are your thoughts there/on those wagons/players voting those two?

@Kitz:
Well, let's say you roll Serial Killer or a scum-team (which I assume are told in their role PM that their wincon is to destroy the other scum factions).
In confirming that you've read your role PM, you're saying that you acknowledge that information.
So, by you not knowing this is multiball, you may be very well townslipping, since the town role PM win-con only says 'when all threats to town have been eliminated.'
I don't put a ton of stock in that, but does that make sense?

@Prolapsed Brain:
In my experience, I am often around during twilight to talk to players.
Twilight is a thing that happens.
Will we end up with a long enough twilight where both Dragons and I are online to discuss Dragons' role?
Maybe.
That's why I'm not hinging everything on it. It's simply a part of the whole of my thoughts and approach to Dragonspawn.
You should get in the game instead of just insulting people, though. :3

@Ozgin:
Your Citizen thing might actually be your salvation, but yeah, I'm probably getting nowhere with those avenues of discourse.

@Boonskies:
You...do realize this is multiball, right? Dragon can still be scum with scum on Dragon's wagon. Like. That's the only way we're even going to see most our lynches happen.
Also, if Dragons got to L-1... would you hammer it?

@Titus:
Talk to you on Monday, then.

[Varsoon]

His goddamn name is Adenine.

Never make this mistake again.

Aneninen*
:3

[Varsoon]

Lol, I referred to House as the mod instead of Wake.
><

[Varsoon]

Titus, if you're here and stuff:
What are your reasons for thinking Ozgin is scum?

[Varsoon]

I'm in a neighborhood called Central Windgale with dragonspawn (and some others), and I want him dead so I can participate in it, please.

kthx.

This is what I figured.
I'm also in a neighborhood and had assumed there were likely other hoods.
I also have the theory that if there's multiple hoods then there's likely at least one rep from a scumteam in each.
I was unsure if Dragon was being awkward about having a neighborhood or a masonry, but it seemed more like a neighborhood (especially since he used the word neighborhood earlier).

[Varsoon]

Boons, can you at least explain why you think Dragon is not scum?

I was honestly waiting for the masons claim but I sincerely doubt that someone is both masons and in a neighborhood.

[Varsoon]

My neighborhood has four people in it, including me. It's up to them if they want to out themselves, I guess.

[Varsoon]

I don't think there would be two neighborhoods of at least 4 players each that are both entirely composed of town.
But that's my take on it.

[Varsoon]

Why do you think you'll be killed, House?

[Varsoon]

What would happen if you used Bodyguard on a Doctor who targeted you? Would both end up with protection?

[Varsoon]

My first question, at least.
I figured that you claimed to give more leverage to your Dragon's push and to ensure that you draw a protect tonight.

Why did you full-claim?
Did you claim earlier in your neighborhood?
Do you think being a JoAT in a neighborhood makes it more likely that there's scum in your 'hood?
What makes you so sold on Dragons?

[Varsoon]

What's this put Dragonspawn at?

[Varsoon]

The idea is that he'd have no reason not to be talkative/helpful in twilight if he were town.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, obviously we won't know the alignment for sure until after mod-confirmation and thread-lock.
:l

[Varsoon]

@Boon: I'm not going to put false confidence in your Dragons' read. I do agree, though, we should lynch out of that neighborhood. I'm doubting House since his claim, but I'm not seeing Bookitty scum here. Again; I'm most confident in Dragonspawn as scum. You just repeatedly saying 'Do not lynch Dragonspawn!' comes off more as a chainsaw defense between scum-buddies than any masonry.

[Varsoon]

Essentially;
You're going to have to put a lot more actual reasons into why Dragonspawn shouldn't be the lynch and why House or Bookitty should be.

[Varsoon]

All I'm getting is that you both come out the gates being friendly with each other and you've been pushing this House/Bookitty scum thing since you got in the game. Dragonspawn seems to be on that House=scum thing, too.
We know that scumteams have daychat.
If you want me to pick up some tiny crumb, I'm terrible at that shit.
I'm not going to be like all the other chumps in this thread that take this bait and go WOAH YEAH I GET IT DRAGON IS TOWN!
Feels like a ruse.

[Varsoon]

And before I pull my guts out in speculation;
This setup does include two non-normal roles.

[Varsoon]

I'm probably using that wrong,
But what I mean is that they're adamantly defending each other and going after the same targets for reasons that aren't fully fleshed out in-thread.
:/

I'd rather hunt from a pool of 3 players than 20, y'know.
If there's scum in the House-bookitty-dragonspawn neighborhood, then we should try to figure that out, right?

[Varsoon]

Teehee

I don't like all the poop though why so much poop
I can't
I just can't

[Varsoon]

Do you seriously think that in a 14-3-3-1 setup, there'd be a five person neighborhood that is ALL TOWN?

C'mon, man.

I'm in a Neighborhood. It's 4 people.
If there's no scum between both of those, I'll buy everyone in this game a pizza.

[Varsoon]

I owe you a pizza for stressing you out, Ozgin.
I'll let you know when my check comes in. :3

Also, yeah, pretty much this:
"What are your points against House/Bookitty, and what're your points for townDragon?"

(Also, we shouldn't trust House's JOAT claim because he only claimed 3 abilities. JOATs have 4.)

[Varsoon]

Eeeeeh,
Do you guys think that it's best to just out our neighborhoods entirely?
If there's scum in them, they already know. :/

[Varsoon]

Pretty sure Ozgin is on dat wondrous Dragonspawn wagon.

[Varsoon]

Eh, screw it.
My neighborhood is Cheetory, Drixx, TSO, and me.
TSO and Drixx have been largely absent but they've also been V/LA and have had a lot going on in their lives.
Cheetory is hesitant to do much in the hood 'cus he thinks we've got scum in it.
I've been fairly vocal about my play in there so far.
Our Neighborhood is called Bastion Veronica.

[Varsoon]

I wonder why Dragonspawn hasn't taken a more convicted approach to the game (especially since he's apparently in a 5 person 'hood) and it's double awkward that he's got early buddying and such with people that aren't part of that hood (as far as I know).

Anyways, yeah.
I think Dragonspawn should be our D1 lynch.
Im pretty sure he's in one of the 3-man teams.


P-edit:
Sorry Cheety. I think this is the only way we'll even garner pressure on Drixx/TSO early.
Plus, this way, we can sort out our 'hoods early, which I still think is a good idea (even if other people think its dumb).

[Varsoon]

Strength in numbers, Arisen.

[Varsoon]

Central Hood:
Wake, Dragonspawn, Bookitty, Kitz, Egg

Bastion Hood:
Varsoon, Cheetory, Drixx, TSO

[Varsoon]

D'oh. Yeah. House. Not Wake.
I should've, uh, marked it on an Excel sheet.

Same starting question as before, Titus:
What are your reasons for thinking Ozgin is scum?

[Varsoon]

I'm not acting like it went away.
From my point of view, a Citizen claim very likely means one of two things, Titus;
He actually is a Citizen. In that case we should not lynch him.
He is scum who read the OP to check what town's flavor was.

I've come to doubt the second. What actually pinged to me, though...
Titus, does your role PM mention the word 'Citizen' in any capacity?
You don't have to answer this.
I am a town PR. My role PM actually doesn't say anything about Citizens.
I PM'd Wake about it, and he verified that Citizen refers explicitly to Vanilla Town roles and not Town PRs.
So I was aware of the disparity between the two, but you also keyed into the same thing, which had me thinking
You being keen on the disparity between the two is likely an indicator that you don't have a Citizen role PM.
However, pushing someone who is a claimed citizen with that knowledge struck me as a bit off-base;
My point was that Ozgin, as scum, would only have the OP as a resource for flavor without explicit knowledge that 'Citizen' entailed only VT meaning
Your point was that Ozgin was legitimately making a Citizen/VT claim as scum with knowledge of what 'Citizen' entailed.
Like, I knew that Citizen was likely a VT thing because I have a town role PM that doesn't mention it, but you seem to know Citizen means VT solely through the OP post, which is the only resource scum would have to know that.
So it felt like you were scum who did not know town PRs don't mention Citizen, or at least, that was what I was considering.
Obviously, you could also just be a town PR, but the nature of your focus on the Citizen claim did not seem that way to me.
Your -other- points in post 415 are very valid, although I think that what I bring up in 669 in a just refutation of what you're seeing as being scummy.

Sorry if I kinda outed you here as PR, if you're not scum. :/
While we're getting into that realm, I actually have a way of confirming if Ozgin is actually a Citizen should we both survive overnight. :3

P-EDIT:
Woah, jeeze, how about we don't risk getting ruined by what's likely a scum!gambit and lynch dragons and, woah, if dragons flips scum we're gravy. If he flips best friend then that clears Boonskies, right? I'll take either of those, really.

[Varsoon]

@Titus: Lemme try to simplify it?
I can confirm if Ozgin is lying with an action of mine. Therefore I don't see the point of being on the Ozgin wagon right now.
What bothered me in regards to how you handled Ozgin was due to how you seemed to be informed of the Citizen = VT thing.
As a town PR, I was aware of the difference without having to read the OP post.
If you aren't a Citizen or a Town PR, you would not be aware of that difference unless you read the OP post.
You were pushing Ozgin over an actual Citizen claim, based on what you read in the OP post.
I was pushing Ozgin over what I read as a fake-Citizen claim, since the OP post would be the only way scum-Ozgin would have access to town Flavor.
Correct me if I'm wrong?

Essentially, this paints you as either a Town PR or Scum-sided, with a lean towards the latter.

But yeah, this also might be me way overthinking things and

considering things solely from my PoV as a basis of understanding

.
I'm sure I'll lose town-points with the critics who can't understand what the fuck I'm trying to convey here.

P-EDIT:
D'oh. Okay. Forget literally everything I said. If the site-meta of your site defaults to Citizen as VT, then nevermind. I'll actually bold where I'm wrong. I've got a site-specific PoV, which is why Citizen stuck out to me.
D'okay.
You're off the hook, Titus.
Do you have any questions for me?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Prolapsed Brain

Look, yeah, I'm cool with this as well.
Dude's been lurking out and the only contributions have been decrying other players and egoposts.

[Varsoon]

It's all rubbish.
I don't buy the Dragonspawn/Boon thing but that'll sort itself out.
I didn't buy RC's dayvig and I don't think the reactions to it are genuine in belief of it either.
I'd be far less skeptical of everything if scum didn't have daychat.

[Varsoon]

The problem with scumhunting in my neighborhood right now is that I'm really certain of my Cheetory townread and while I doubt TSO and Drixx, they literally are not here to receive the pressure of a wagon.
On the other hand, I am highly suspicious of House (post-claim) and Dragonspawn, and I don't exactly have a wondrous townread on you or Kitz either. Given that House and Dragonspawn are vocal and around, hunting out of that 'hood seemed preferable in regards to tangible results given activity.
I think that we should consider both 'hoods as pools of players that have anti-town (at least) in them, but some people think Wake set up large 'hoods just to fuck with us.

P-EDIT:
@Boonskies: The scum incentive would be to pose as best friends. Daychat = scum theatre.
:/
But, yes, like you said. A best friend flip from either one of you will clear the other. That's why I'll let that nonsense lie.

[Varsoon]

I was calling you out as faking masons for awhile.
I didn't know Best Friends was even a role that exists.
I guess Pathfinder Mafia had Friendly Neighbor, which was a thing I learned of.

[Varsoon]

Wow, Varsoon. Is your arrogance justifiable? Are you some highly acclaimed epitome of mafia-playing greatness?

Nah, I'm just a dude who's here to have fun and eat pizza.
I'm okay at this game, I guess. But being forward (sometimes flamboyantly or aggressively so) is important.

[Varsoon]

You should probably develop some reads and give some input on the game.
Yeah?

[Varsoon]

@Egg: The only claim I was looking for from dragonspawn was a neighbor claim. When it became painfully obvious that Boon/Dragon were crumbing masons/friends, my response was denial of that. I

still

think it's not true.
I'd rather push people on their play independent of claims, though. I got caught up in way too much setup spec as of late and I don't think it's helped us out that much. We'll see D2 if it plays out well, I guess.

@FAQ2: Why don't you want to vote for Prolapsed Brain?

We're not lynching out of House, Dragonspawn, Boonskies, or Ozgin today.
Can we please focus on other wagons for now?
I'd rather not have a 200 page D1.

That said, Prolapsed Brain needs votes badly.

[Varsoon]

@FAQ2: Please read the thread or, at least, look through my ISO.
It should be -painfully- obvious why I am against a D1 Ozgin lynch.

@Dragonspawn: I don't think your alternative suggestions of House or Bookitty are worthwhile.
I do think Kitz and Laladucks could use a (or another) wagon.

@Drixx: I'm not /scum/reading you. I'm saying you deserve pressure. You're not scum for being absent, but you certainly aren't town-read for it. I want to have a better handle on my read of you. I'm also not chainsawing for Boonskies, yo. You're thinking of Dragonspawn, maybe?

I'd actually be fine with a laladucks wagon. The last wagon was diffused with laladucks coming back to game apologetic while the dragons wagon blew up, but
Laladucks really hasn't done much of anything since then.
:l

[Varsoon]

This ISO, though.
Lots of great stuff in here

Spoiler: Prolapsed Brain's Entire Contribution in 42 Pages

/confirm

Gotta love them tasty timezones. Can't just summon everyone to be online simultaneously.

I'm not here to party, I'm here to catch scum.

Can someone please explain all this SilverWolf love, please? Thanks.

I am ten pages behind.

So far, Ozgin looks scummish, Egg looks townish, Titus looks nulltownish, and everyone else is not memorable.

If he flips town then I really, really need to talk to him in Twilight.
That's about all.

It doesn't work like that, you know. Why don't you go back to the Newbie Queue?

If he flips town then I really, really need to talk to him in Twilight.
That's about all.

It doesn't work like that, you know. Why don't you go back to the Newbie Queue?

... Shit... are you kidding me with this post.

I never kid.

@Prolapsed Brain:
In my experience, I am often around during twilight to talk to players.
Twilight is a thing that happens.
Will we end up with a long enough twilight where both Dragons and I are online to discuss Dragons' role?
Maybe.
That's why I'm not hinging everything on it. It's simply a part of the whole of my thoughts and approach to Dragonspawn.
You should get in the game instead of just insulting people, though. :3

The point you didn't address, though, is how are you going to talk to dragonspawn

after he flips?

Once he's flipped, it's Night and he's dead.

If he

[dragonspawn]

flips town then I really, really need to talk to him

[dragonspawn]

in Twilight.
That's about all.

Don't know who to vote for yet. It'll happen.

[Varsoon]

@Taly: Go to my ISO.
Ctrl+F 'Ozgin'
Success!

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, you know that the Vanilla Townie=Citizen thing is also in the first post, right?

Bookitty, it's like you don't even read my posts.
Please, Bookitty, actually read my posts.
I mention SEVERAL times that the VT=Citizen thing is in the OP.
That was, like, the crux of what I was saying.
Ugggh.


@Dragonspawn: Oh? Maybe that was Boonskies. I've been mixing you two up lately but that's because I'm fairly certain you're both full of shit.
Like, I -really- wish I could push through a lynch on one or both of you, because I think your claim is terrible, your play is bad, and we've gotten nowhere in the last 20 pages thanks to all of it.

[Varsoon]

Asking people to replace out is pretty lame. I want you to play and enjoy the game.
If you find that you can't enjoy and play the game, then that's your call,
but I'd rather everyone be able to play and enjoy the game and I try to work towards being a part of games that people are excited to play/enjoy.

If you need to take a V/LA, take one.

[Varsoon]

Also, happy scumday~<3

[Varsoon]

Neighborhoods got outed.
You and boon claimed neighbors.
We went from having a wagon that was looking productive to being in a position where almost all of our realistic lynch options are low info yields.

We need to spring into a new direction. Right now it feels like there's no momentum.
I think that direction includes pressure/wagon/lynch on one of: ProlapsedBrian, Laladucks, TSO, Drixx, Kitz, etc.

[Varsoon]

@Bookitty: Im not going to claim any more of my role until I get results.
I'll be able to clear Ozgin unless there's some block or something.

Misrep me harder, Egg. I've already outright discussed the 'buddying' thing. I don't see how the fuck you think I was rolefishing, especially in the case of Dragon/Boon (Addressed this as well). Basically, you're dredging up a ton of biased complaints that I've already addressed. I also dont see your point on Kitz. I feel like you're just scrambling for reasons to scumread me and/or you're not reading thoroughly. Regardless, your read is ill-informed.

:/

I slept for 24 hours. I might be depressed or something? I don't know, man.
Ozgin, you can't greentext off-chans.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: varsoon

The role hunting bothers me.

Show me

where

I am rolehunting/fishing instead of voting me over literal lies.

[Varsoon]

Don't blame you. His recent actions of defending Ozgin at all costs for no reason irk me. I had him marked in as my first candidate for Ozgin's partner.

At all costs?
I think I've been thorough in explaining how my read on Ozgin has changed and I've been incredibly clear on why I want Ozgin off the table for lynch on D1.
Don't misrep me like I've just been coming out of nowhere and defending Ozgin--

that

would be awkward and would require questions (like when Boonskies did that with Dragonspawn--oh wait!).

But yeah I should just only do things that are super safe and town-oriented, right?

[Varsoon]

@FAQ2: I think a lot of the points you're making against laladucks are the reasons why the Prolapsed wagon is as popular as it is.
I'll hold that any player who has low content and low quality-per-post is low-hanging fruit. That doesn't really speak towards their alignment, but instead towards how easily they might be lynched.
At this point in the game, I'd be fine with a lynch on laladucks as well. I'm holding out to see what Prolapsed has to post.

[Varsoon]

Oh, sweet. Game started. I skimmed real fast. Like real fast. Sup, dragon, how you doin'? Eh, house and Bookitty probably scum again.

VOTE: bookitty

Was it coincidence that in the post you call a crumb, you mentioned two of dragonspawn's neighbors and voted one?

Actually, this should probably be given some attention.
But I'm a bit biased in regards to the Boon/Dragons claim.
:/

[Varsoon]

Varsoon you straight up admitted to the buddying. Just because you paint it in a positive light doesn't mean it's not there. And you were clearly pushing dragonspawn to claim what you thought would be mason. I don't even know how you can say otherwise. I know you addressed most if not all of this but nothing you said made it go away.

I also explained how what I was doing wasn't scum-oriented buddying. I know there's this site-meta bias where buddying is

always

scummy, but I legit straight up told people that I was trying to make allies so that D1 wouldn't be the shitstorm that other 21-player D1s typically are. Furthermore, my attempt to make those allies failed. Both Cheetory and Bookitty have me null and potentially scummy. We can discuss this more if you want, but I don't think it forwards the game-state that much.

I don't see how my interaction with dragonspawn was an attempt to get a mason claim. It was clear that they were crumbing something similar from the get-go and I could have, as scum, easily just taken that information back to my team and let it roll in-thread. Instead, I wanted to know for sure why Boonskies and Dragonspawn had such awkward interaction with each other. I still don't believe in their claim/crumb/whatever. I've decided that it's best to just let it ride because one of them, if they're not lying, will turn up dead eventually. If they are lying, it'll be obvious as hell in a few days.

...so I'm sorry for trying to get people playing with focus and I'm sorry for pushing my scum-reads?
If that makes me scum, fuck it, lynch me.

[Varsoon]

Honestly, I think I've claimed too much and it's likely that I'll be blocked or killed tonight anyway.
Given that liability, I don't really know how much we'll be able to trust my results (if I even get any) on Ozgin at all.
I suppose that if I get a verification that Ozgin is not Citizen through my role, that means we can lynch Ozgin right out.
If I get no result, then we kinda get nothing. :/

[Varsoon]

I'd rather avoid mislynching town if possible.
If it weren't for my soft, Ozgin would've already likely been lynched today.
If I can clear him, I'd like to do that rather than have us end the day on a ML.

[Varsoon]

<3 you too, Drixx.
Please catch up sometime soon, yeah?

[Varsoon]

Titus, I'm glad you're engaging laladucks. I'd be a bit bothered if you were solely committed to a tunnel on Ozgin.

@House: Why the Ozgin vote?

I'm really worn out and will probably be taking it easy the next few days.
But I'm glad with where I am and I'm looking forward to Prolapsed coming back with content or getting lynched for it.

[Varsoon]

@Anen: Has to be Ozgin because of reasons that I'm sure are already really obvious.
Hint: It's the Citizen Claim.
Another Hint: He did claim VT/Citizen.

[Varsoon]

Is it wrong that on every VC, I click the word 'information' and I hope its information on the Fish shown but then it isn't? Seriously, I've done this like three times now.

Glad to see Prolapsed returning to the game. *cough*
VOTE: laladucks
I'm with Aneninen on this one.
I've been disappointed with laladucks' return to the game, focus on anything but the game, and generally dispassionate approach.
I actually feel like the opposite is happening of Titus' suggestion; Laladucks is scum and Ozgin is a town counter-wagon. That's probably how it was earlier in D1, too.
Also, considering who is voting for Ozgin vs who is voting for lalaladucks:
Dragonspawn and Boonskies are all-but-confirmed town, Aneninen has brought an amazing case against laladucks, and I'm pretty convinced of Ozgin's town status (but at the very least they are opposed wagons so yeah).
Ozgin's wagon, on the other hand, feels full of questionable votes.

[Varsoon]

Looking back on it, it seemed like the height of the laladucks wagon was Bookitty, dragonspawn, Silverwolf, Ozgin, Egg, Varsoon.
That fell apart and became the Dragonspawn wagon, which was then countered out by the Ozgin wagon, which has been more or less here since then.
So... same thing with Dragonspawn vs Laladucks earlier in game.
Dragonspawn was the town-wagon, laladucks scum.
Same thing here, but with Ozgin. Maybe.
I dunno just lynch ducks.

[Varsoon]

You do know ducks had a large wagon far before Ozgin ever had one, right?

[Varsoon]

What kind of logic is that?
I think scum would -want- to lynch scum to earn townpoints for it and then during night they'd want to direct double-kills on town PRs.
Ideally. Right?

[Varsoon]

I think there was only ever two votes on me, one of which was dragonspawn and the other was what was called 'an RVS' vote.
The laladucks and ozgin wagons have been the most consistent wagons the whole game.

P-EDIT:
I've only played a handful of multiball setups. I don't really like them. They usually feel scum-sided to me.
I feel like you've put so much down on Ozgin, Titus. I'm really worried you're both town and scum wants to milk that. :/
What's sideways is that even with a scum-flip from laladucks, you'll still just stay on Ozgin because multiballlll. I don't think you'll be satisfied until Ozgin is dead.
It's not like I don't get it, I just don't agree with it.
:/

[Varsoon]

@Titus: We've been over this 'rolefishing' accusation. While I can see how people might think I was trying to get a claim from Boon/Dragon, the truth of the matter is far different. It really bugs me when people continue to say 'Oh, Varsoon did this thing!' when I did not. It's not fun. What's even less fun is when you point out that the accusation is built on false pretenses and people still parrot it. That kind of approach to the game makes me want to quit playing. It's not a matter of scum vs town or whatever, it's just a really annoying, dismissive approach to the game in general. It reflects a failure to actually engage with the game, which I'm worried is what is happening in general with your tunnel on Ozgin. I don't see a dialogue happening between you two at all. I don't see engagement. All I see you doing is constantly saying the same dated case you've got on him. The only thing that makes me not completely turn sour over it all is that you and Ozgin both seem to put effort into things other than each other, which is a breath of fresh air.

I agree with Cheetory here; I'm not seeing Ozgin's approach as scum-motivated at all, but, rather, as playstyle approach entirely.
Does that clear him?
No.
But it doesn't make him the scum-of-the-earth that you're wagoning him as, Titus.

[Varsoon]

@House: I'm not going to write off any player in a large game as 'newb'. That gives them a free ticket to ride. Play that's decidedly anti-town/scummy should be met with pressure and lynches. It doesn't matter who that comes from. I think you're either falling to an appeal to emotion or (more likely) you're using the situation to try to leverage more votes from the laladucks wagon onto your preferred lynch.

@Ducks: Early on, you were low-hanging fruit. When the game had only been online for two days, most players hadn't had a chance to post in the game and I had assumed you were a target because you were unable to produce much content and what you had produced wasn't transparently town. You came back to the game and apologized for not being around and seemed like you were going to make an effort towards figuring out the game, hunting scum, etc. I figured that was a good reaction to the pressure you were receiving earlier. However, after that, you disengaged with the game again, and the content you produced has been lackluster. It feels as though you were taking a backseat to all the noise of the Ozgin wagon and the Dragonspawn stuff going on.
What's wrong with considering the SK early on? I don't see what's inherently scummy about this. People've tried to misrep this moment as me 'hunting the SK' when that's hardly the case. It's awkward that you'd bring this back up. I was merely considering what sort of motivations you'd have to carry on play the way you have. Town doesn't need to be survivalistic in this setup. The SK does. More than likely, scumteam members also don't want to stick out as strong town voices because they want to avoid drawing a kill at night. I was simply making those observations aloud.

I think you're still an easy lynch considering your play, but now it feels like you're riding too much on that fact to try to avoid being lynched.

[Varsoon]

House, your strong-arm play puts a really sour taste in my mouth, but you'll also very likely be sorted out overnight.
What I'm not sure of is why you're wagoning Ozgin.
I'd like you to elaborate on that.

@Ducks: If you'd like to have a dialogue, I'll be around.
Just ask me questions and I shall answer.
Your play (and reads) are very reactionary.
I'm wondering where that's coming from.

[Varsoon]

I was hoping you'd have something more than a sheep-vote at this point in the game.
And aw, don't act like you don't wanna share something sweet with me~<3

[Varsoon]

@Laladucks: It'd be fine if we were in a more town-loaded setup. In this case, though, you stand out as either a weakest link (someone that definitely shouldn't make it to LYLO regardless of alignment) or as scum trying to pass on by. Ultimately; it's a liability. Not necessarily scummy, but definitely not pro-town in many instances.

@House: Ugh. If all you base your play on is night-kills, lynches, and PRs, why even post at all?
There's 57 pages now. Saying no one has anything important to vote someone else over is straight up whack.
You think Dragonspawn's claim is rubbish, too?
Hum-ho.

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

And you think she couldn't use it against you?
Rather, I think you're using it here to force focus onto the Ozgin wagon and set up for lynches tomorrow based on who is wagoning Ducks.
Like, eeeh, that's really transparent.
:l

[Varsoon]

VOTE: laladucks

*cough*
I got all your wack in my mouth now.

[Varsoon]

I'm actually more pushy about you, House.
You're pushing around a lot of weight and straight up pulling strings, too.
It's... wack.

[Varsoon]

I can't swallow all this wack.

[Varsoon]

Awww, I know you care about my feelings for you, House<3

Your claim does literally nothing mechanical. Anyone taking your claim at face-value should be, I dunno, reprimanded or something. The claim-meta on this site is absurd. I'm just gonna fake-claim masons in literally every game after this one. :l
There's no guarantee there's even a real JOAT in the game, and, furthermore, you could be claiming just to try to get a JOAT counterclaim.

That's

rolefishing. Furthermore, the OP says there may be duplicate roles, so counterclaims also mean far less.

Your claim hasn't been verified by the mod. The fact that you're trying to say that you're mechanically cleared as town is literally false. You're lying. Like right now. Straight up.
Some people might have a stomach for all this wack, but I don't.

:/

@Anen: Unless he is bulletproof or Acetic or whatever. Which is very likely in a 14-3-3-1.
Faking night results is easier than you'd think.

[Varsoon]

Easily.

Especially

if BP.
The point of the claim was to put himself out of lynching territory and to draw a target on himself.
There's a few reasons I could think of for both scum and town House to do that.
The trick is discerning the truth. :l

[Varsoon]

Fine. Where's the scum motivation? Show that to me and I'll acquiesce.

Until you do... until you

can

... stfu and move on.

Scum motivation for you to hard-defend laladucks and use that defense as a means of shifting votes from the laladucks wagon towards the ozgin wagon ooooor....
Scum motivation for laladucks to play a large game in a way that doesn't directly step on any players toes, takes a backseat, pushes counterwagons without much reason to outside survivalism, appeals to emotion, etc.?

'cus, I mean, you don't have to be a creative genius to think of either.
Also, I think the whole "Until you can show me the scum motivation" thing is kinda like admitting that you're going to hold the same position regardless of contrary evidence. Kinda like Titus and her death-tunnel on Ozgin. :/

It actually bothers me that you're all about a 1-day-free-pass on Laladucks but could care less when I'm corralling for the same thing for Ozgin.

[Varsoon]

@Bookitty: Lying isn't alignment indicative. I lie all the time as both aligns. Sometimes a good lie can win the game as either alignment. :l
Lies are great. Lies are important. People that wanna lynch all liars wanna take the fun out of the game.
Because we could play a game where no one posts and all we do is vote and use our powers.
But that'd suck.

@Egg: Do I need to slap you?
Role/setup Speculation IS NOT Role Fishing.
When someone is like, "Oh man what could be the motivation for that?"
And I'm all, "Well, he -could- be this role, that'd explain it."
That's NOT role-fishing.
That's

setup speculation

.

Here's my take on the Ozgin thing as a whole:
I originally thought what you're saying, Boo. I thought it was a slip based on role info and what's in the OP. Shit, go read my early posts against Ozgin. That's literally part of what I was pushing (and even acknowledging was kinda a shitty point anyway because LOL SLIPS AMIRITE?)
But now it actually seems that Ozgin comes from a site where 'citizen' is interchangeable with town (and also VT) and that when he was claiming citizen, it was pretty much him saying "Oh, yeah, I'm town" and after about a billion people called him out of it he was like, "Yeah, I am just straight up /citizen/, as in VT."

I don't know if that makes sense to you, but it feels right enough to me.
*cough besides I can check him tonight anyway howabout that*

P-EDIT:
Oh garsh, Titus came in
@Titus: Do you not realize how your knowledge of the 'Citizen' thing would be a huge implication of you as scum if you hadn't had any prior exposure to the word?
If you think that's fucking rolefishing instead of scum-hunting when

the evidence that I had at-hand pointed towards you being scum

, then fuck it, I guess I was role-fishing. :l
I do agree that Ozgin using the site-meta thing that made me get off of your case over the whole 'citizen is vocabulary that's unique to this game' shit feels after-the-fact, but it could fit.
I assure you, though, Ozgin's on no team of mine unless he's town (which I'm now second guessing, thanks, jerks). Were we on the same scum team, our scum theatre would have been

exquisite

.

[Varsoon]

I also really don't like that Titus is simultaneously pushing this narrative where Ozgin might be a ninja and therefore avoid my clearing ability but then Ozgin also is probably on the same team as me (because it's not like I learned bussing hard out the gate is a TERRIBLE idea from my last large game or anything).

Like, c'mon, Titus.
Come up with some more hypotheticals where I suck.

[Varsoon]

No. You do not get to post sad cats at me.


I actually think you're really fun, Boo. But please don't take lying and rhetoric away from me. There's a lot of people who want that, and this is all I have, Bookitty. This is all I've done with my life.

As for Ozgin, I thought he said his games on the other site weren't logged or something.
:/
I really don't want to waffle this more than I already have, but if he's on this site in a same game not using 'citizen' to just mean town when it's got the same Citizen = VT thing going on, then, eh, fuck it.
Fuck it so much.

[Varsoon]

Titus, you make me sour.
My capacity to clear Ozgin was only realized when Ozgin married himself to his VT claim. Before that, I was under the impression he was simply claiming town. And before, that, when I was pushing him, I was under the impression he was scum very poorly faking a town-claim.

I know you want me out of the game now that I'm not just parroting you like before. I was willing to call you out on things that pinged to you. I'm clearly an obstacle for you. It's smart of you to try to set up my lynch, but you're in for some shit when this wagon flips green.
VOTE: Ozgin
I can't wait for you to be proven wrong.

[Varsoon]

When we get a townflip from this, I'm going to wait patiently for you to apologize or just come out and accept your turbo-lynch.
:l

[Varsoon]

@Titus: I was voting him because I thought he was claiming town and he was using the Citizen role-PM to think that all town where citizens. Does that make sense? I've explained this like five times now. @_@


@Boo: I won't lie to you, Bookitty. I'm your dirty little trust-teller.
But yeah that's pretty damning. The only reason I could see to do that as town is with the hope that people will buy it and get off of you and onto, y'know, a scum lynch.
For the wincon, as they say.


@Dragonspawn:
The way I see it, Ozgin lynch is inevitable. It either happens today or tomorrow or the next day but it's going to happen with how much of an issue it is.
I'd rather get this sorted out now. At the very least, we get a ton of info based on the fact literally everyone who's been in the game has had some input or interaction with Ozgin so far.
At best, we get a lynch on scum (or the SK! Oh boy! Shit, don't let some people read that--they might think my vote on Ozgin is SK hunting! Double-shit! Am I rolefishing right now?) AND relational tells.
We've had a good flux of wagons and counterwagons.
I'd say that, honestly, Ozgin's probably the best lynch we can go with.

He's at L-2 as far as I am aware.

[Varsoon]

Titus, T S O, Egg, Bookitty, FA_Q2, Taly, Prolapsed Brain, Aneninen, Varsoon, House
puts the wagon at L-1.
Purty sure.

[Varsoon]

I've had literally two shifts of observation on this, Titus. Three, now, I guess. Follow me here, because accusing me seems to be your go-to and following me isn't really working so far but I'm willing to try for the both of us:

Ozgin says he is a Citizen a few times. I actually noticed the second instance of him doing this. I call him out in post 191. It isn't until 196 that you joined in and followed up in hunting Ozgin based on his Citizen 'slip'. So, let the record be straight,

I'm the one who fucking started it, don't act like I was just sheeping you, Titus.

INITIAL THOUGHT

Ozgin has a scum-PM. He checked the OP to see what the rhetoric was for town-claiming, saw it was citizen, and started claiming citizen in the place of 'town'. Not 'Vanilla Town' specifically, just town. 290 explains this point, but apparently [redacted, you can obviously read, there's no point in me calling you out for illiteracy, lol]

REVISED THOUGHT

Ozgin actually is claiming VT and did not know that all of town weren't called Citizens (the VT pm seems to imply that all town may be referred to as 'citizen') Because of this slip, I was reading him as a VT at post 669 and began to think I could use my PR to clear him (because I'm a vanilla-cop or a tracker or something that can do that, look, you'll know when I fucking die, okay?) At this point, I start to think Titus' notice of the 'citizen' thing could be due to herself having a scum-PM with no mention of 'citizen' rather than a town-PR with no mention of 'citizen' given the nature of her push. I drop this when Titus reveals 'Citizen = VT' is the normal rhetoric on her other site. She has yet to forgive me and now is being really crummy over it.

CURRENT THOUGHT

Ozgin's lying about 'citizen' being a part of his rhetoric. Why is he lying? I dunno. It could fall on either side of the fence. Whatever. Lynch it and be done.


Ozgin already claimed VT. I don't think he can walk away from that. :/

[Varsoon]

He takes the town slip credit as well despite this sort of thing never happening. Plus, he has a decent coach on scum narratives IMO in Varsoon. By setting up a by claim, a low powered scum can essentially confirm themselves later. Who would fake a claim since post 102? That's absurd.

@Varsoon, that doesn't make any sense either. Citizen is not common to this site. No one would think all towns were Citizens reading the first post. You have had a constant shift of explanations, trying to defend Ozgin after that slip.

You voted Ozgin for his bad citizen claim right after I did. If you actually could clear Ozgin, such a vote makes no sense. There are indeed flaws like that throughout.

You're trying to build this fake-as-fuck narrative where I'm

defending

Ozgin over a slip when, literally, I was the first person to call him out on it and, for a good and long damn amount of time, I outright held my initial ground that it was a slip. You're also trying to paint some weird moon-logic Titus shit where you were voting Ozgin over his slip first when it was me that called him out for it and made a case on him that was independent of this slip nonsense in the first place. Your initial vote on Ozgin wasn't accompanied by any text. Only after I made my points did you come in with "Oh yeah, I noticed that too."

Why are you positioning yourself as this GRAND REVEALER AND HEAD OF THE OZGIN wagon? You weren't. I was. I jumped off that shit because I was legit convinced Ozgin was just town fucking up badly.
Why are you making all these fabrications and grand allusions to some Ozgin/Varsoon team? It doesn't exist. You're spouting off fan-fiction at this point.

I think it's in my right to call you out on this.

[Varsoon]

lol@anyone who ever takes house srs.

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

*cough*
You say I protected Ozgin but I'm pretty much one of the primary people who drove the lynch both early and late. I think.

[Varsoon]

<3 you wolf, but damn.
Damn damn damn.
Next time we roll scum together, I wanna see you fight to the bitter end!
I think you're a good enough player to pull it off. More tenacity would suit you well.

This game was fun to follow. I'm glad my team could figure out the other one so quickly.
TSO and Cheetory brought some strong play this game that I really liked.
Town handled things pretty well.

I don't feel that the setup was unbalanced. That's just how multiball games go; town has to have strong PRs to counteract the multiple kills in play.
It ends up being super-swingy. I'm not a fan of it, but some people love having multiple factions in play.

[Varsoon]

Xtoxm really surprised me with the late entry. I remember reading Xtoxm's posts in the last few days and thinking, "Oh man, this guy is going to put our team in the grave."

[Varsoon]

Also

VOTE: Egg

I'm a JOAT. My role is bloody powerful, I must say. If you'd managed to turn the lynch on me yesterday like you wanted, you might have won. I saw plenty of potential for an implosion in this town.

Abilities: Role cop, vanilla cop, neighboriser, roleblock.

N1 neighborise House (fail)
N2 no action
N3 no action
N4 no action
N5 Role cop Egg

Also, I do have a modifier to my role.

Why did I target you? You were the only scumread I felt would not be possible to push a lynch on. Everyone in the game was townreading you. Night is for dealing with the scum you can't get lynched. Wasn't concerned about SW as she would never live to endgame. Same with Delta. Everyone else was a town read.

When I read this, I had to double-take because I forgot you were even in the game. That's how low-profile you were.

[Varsoon]

I think it's more a site-meta thing than anything. I've played a few games off-site and when I've made strong cases against scum, I've seen them just come out and admit they were scum. I've also seen final remaining scum members give up early when town was stacked against them. If anything, this site promotes a very unforgiving fight-even-after-twilight approach.

I agree that Silverwolf could have pulled a win. That is just it--could have. From Silver's posts, she seemed exhausted with the game and felt defeated, which is understandable. I think replacing out in that situation would probably be too shady.

I'm of the opinion that Silverwolf should've played it out, and that SW is a strong enough player to have won despite the stacked odds. That said, I'm okay with how things turned out. Town did well and we offed the other team too quickly. To blame the red team loss solely on SW would be really rude and would be denying the weaknesses in our play all around as well as the strengths of town's play.

I still wanna play with you Silverwolf. I think you're a damn strong player as scum and, sure, you've got room to improve, but so does everyone. I think we should celebrate our strengths and play to improve our weaknesses rather than just being down because we made a poor play here or there. <3

[Varsoon]

<3
Sorry for dying on you so early.
I was really impressed with your contributions all game. I've never been in a scum PT with that much discussion between 3 (and most of the game just 2) players. Like I said, you're a fantastic player and I'm excited to play more with you.

I hope everything gets better IRL, too.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I felt that as soon as Xtoxm claimed, our team was done for.

[Varsoon]

Honestly, I want you around on this site.
I think you're a strong player already and I want to see you develop into an even better player.
Stick it to the man and stay around. Besides, I wanna play with you again.

I saw a 2-week ban within my first year on-site, myself. There's still folks who resent me, I figure.
Despite that, I've stayed around because I want to make the community of Mafiascum better. I like the people I've met here. I love the games we've played.
If you all those elitists and nay-sayers get to you and make you quit, they win. Screw that. I want to foster a better community than that. I want Mafiascum to be a site where players can grow, make mistakes, develop, and become stronger for it. I want this site to be a welcoming place for all kinds of players. I want to see different playstyles clash and sparks fly, but at the end of the day I want to have a site where I know I can have fun with wonderful people.

There are some amazing folks on this site. There are great games to be had. Letting one pitfall keep you from all that seems like a waste. I want you to stay--and not just me, plenty of others have voiced that opinion. As for the haters; prove 'em wrong. Rise above. You'll have fun doing it. I mean, I know I have.

[Varsoon]

<3
They had to make a whole new wiki page for what they banned me over.
For awhile, I couldn't even jokingly say 'I am town' without people WIFOMing their brains out.
Y'gotta take it in stride. I owned up to it, accepted it, joked about it, agreed the moderation could've given way more warning/leeway, absolved to have a more open discourse with my players when I eventually modded, and, heck, I even made a role based around my ban in a bastard game I've run.

How you deal with this is up to you. There will always be people who will despise you. I think it's worth it to stick around for the ones who cherish you. If you've gotta take a break, that's understandable. Heck, even I had to take a break and cool down for awhile. Just don't leave for good, or I'll never get a chance to redeem myself and win a scum-game alongside ya. :3

[Varsoon]

Rock on.