Mini 1709: Radjarok: Game over!

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vote: Hopkirk

. He knows why.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I am Haschel Cedricson.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Duly noted.

[Haschel Cedricson]

That's up to Hopkirk.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Then i looked back and saw this and i felt sad again. Is it just that i haven't confirmed, or is there some other reason you're hiding?

I do not care about whether people confirm quickly or not. And I'm not hiding anything.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Let me put this another way then: Am i forgetting a game we've played together? I know i haven't seen that avatar at least.

I don't think you're forgetting anything.

And now I am the one who is sad; I've had this avatar for a long time.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Sure he does.

[Haschel Cedricson]

He literally just said he does not know why Haschel. Dunno why you're being so cagey over a random vote.

He didn't literally say that, he said that he didn't recognize my avatar and that he felt sad.

[Haschel Cedricson]

He literally just said he does not know why Haschel. Dunno why you're being so cagey over a random vote.

He didn't literally say that, he said that he didn't recognize my avatar and that he felt sad.

Okayyyy. Moar votes on this guy please.

Am I wrong?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Hopkirk, care to chime in?

[Haschel Cedricson]

VOTE: Haschel

No matter what Hopkirk explicitly said or merely implied, I asked you for an explanation and you are refusing to give us one? Why?

Because as soon as I give an explanation then Hopkirk's actions moving forward will be affected by that, and I wanted to see how things played out.

At any rate, I've seen enough. Hopkirk knew full well that we were in the Random Vote Stage of the game. Everybody knew that. Accountant even said it was a random vote.

Unvote: Hopkirk

Now the question is do we focus on the players who allowed a wagon to get to L-2 less than a day-and-a-half into the game? Or the players who ignored all of this?

Let's try the latter.

Vote: SamX

[Haschel Cedricson]

A specific reason.

As for Trivium's question, I agree with Hopkirk that it is a pointless question and have no intention of answering it.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Not yet. I mean, I've revealed part of the puzzle already but there's no sense in telling SamX everything before he responds.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Nah, Hopkirk's alright.

[Haschel Cedricson]

So we're getting the ball rolling i see, if you want me to say something about the game, then i will mention the role list.
Isnt this the role list where the serial killer has a 50% chance of coming into play? that means we have 2KP correct? Or am i confused here?

I recognize those words but have no idea what you're saying.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Anything in particular you want me to do?

Can't speak for vijay but I, for one, would like you to talk about the events in this game so far and your opinions about them.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I can do that.


VOTE: Texcat


Feels as if he's making things up to give a reason to vote.

What do you think he was making up?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Nope. Might be scum though.

He literally just said he does not know why Haschel. Dunno why you're being so cagey over a random vote.

He didn't literally say that, he said that he didn't recognize my avatar and that he felt sad.

Okayyyy. Moar votes on this guy please.

I don't like the tone of these posts, however.

Why not?

Alright thank you Dessew.

Anyway, i have 100% with VeeGee on this, vijay2's posts seem to be pulled out of his ass or half-assed. With that said however, i

do not

think he is scum at this time (and i doubt VeeGee thinks that either), his posts arent exactly ones that would slide under the radar.
Though i really wish he would actually give more of a shit here.

Why do you think VeeGee thinks that? And by what metric are vijay's posts half-assed, particularly when compared to the posts of half the players in this game?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I also didnt mean to put words in VeeGee's mouth, i was only bouncing off of what they previously said.

So do you think VeeGee felt vijay was scum or not? Because I'm having trouble understanding your stance on this.

[Haschel Cedricson]

VOTE: Gob


Been wanting to, no idea why I didn't earlier.

VeeGee, why did you vote gob?

As for VeeGee's most recent post about his vote on gob, why? What're your reads on him?

This needs to be answered immediately. Like, in VeeGee's very next post.

@Haschel: What's the specific reason??? I'm dying to know why you put your vote on me.

In addition to completely ignoring the Haschelwagon and the events leading up to it, you ALSO ignored Trivium's RQS question, so I figured you were a good place to start getting information.

Anyhoo, there's a lot going on in this game, but I do have a few things I want to bring up. Let's start with the vijaywagon. I don't get it. At all. VeeGee said that he didn't like his "tone", and gob concurred and accused vijay of "half-assing" his posts. These are both ridiculous. When I pushed gob on this point, he said "I never said others posts were grade-A either, but i find the need to mention that Vijays in particular stood out to me as half-assed." This is a complete non-answer to my question of what specifics made them half-assed. So,

gob, I'll ask you again: Which specific posts by vijay do you feel were half-assed, and why do they strike you that way?

Then there is Hopkirk's two attacks suggesting that vijay is coaching his partner, specifically for the lines

Anything in particular you want me to do?

anything really. maybe put down the most serious vote you can?

I can do that.


VOTE: Texcat


Feels as if he's making things up to give a reason to vote.

and

Also after I asked for a serious vote, VeeGee picks texcat, retracts it and then leaves it at that. Stop doing the bare minimum scum and at least look like you're scumhunting.

I think to call either of these statements "coaching" is an enormous stretch. If anything, I felt gob's "i do not think he is scum at this time (and i doubt VeeGee thinks that either" seemed much more like possible coaching than anything vijay has said.

Moving on.

I noticed people have Accountant as a strong townread, which I find a little disconcerting. In addition to another crappy case on vijay (He's aggressive! He wanted people to vote for Haschel and then turned around and voted somebody else! Never mind Haschel's actions between those two points. He's starting wagons!), she states that Klingoncelt is "rubbing [her] the wrong way" yet lists SamX and vijay as better vote options. Now, the vijay part makes sense; her case may not be very good, but she did make one and voting for vijay is internally consistent. But SamX? Why? And no reason is given. Later she says that vijay "seems to be deflecting more than anything" and didn't like "vibes" that he was giving off. Accountant, what was vijay deflecting?

Gob made a pretty sparse reads list, and here is his read on VeeGee:

I think

Anything in particular you want me to do?

says enough for VeeGee, he is obviously trying to appear as a town, asking what he should do, not wanting to step on any toes.

That's not a read; that's a complete dodge that makes it look like he said something about VeeGee while not actually saying anything. So once again, let's be unambiguous here: gob, do you believe VeeGee is scum or not? What specific reasons make you feel that way?

Finally, I want to mention this quote by VeeGee:

Are you saying that I should either, A: Keep voting texcat, even though I had no reason to, or B: Vote someone random?


I'm not doing either.

This is a horrible false dichotomy and you know it.

Alright, that's a big enough wall for now. VeeGee, gob, Accountant, please answer my questions in your next post.

[Haschel Cedricson]

One of my favorite exchanges I ever read on this site occurred shortly after I joined this site, and it's stuck with me ever since:
Player 1 I feel like my only options here are to A) either prove I'm a townie or B) convince you to lynch somebody else instead.
Player 2: The only way for you to do "A" is by dying, so if I were you I'd get started on "B".

Do you disagree with the arguments that vijay was making?

[Haschel Cedricson]

What RQS question? o-o I didn't ignore the Haschelwagon, to me, it was just bickering back and forth about "Can we know why?", "He knows why." and RVS.

This RQS question:

How about a little RQS to get the game rolling. Here's mine-
How much are you planning on posting throughout the game?
I am fairly active in my games. Like all the time.

And I'm referring specifically to posts 40 and 42, where even if you felt it was pointless back-and-forth, two other players had literally just voted for me and you ignoring all of that in order to make two fluff posts didn't sit well with me.

[Haschel Cedricson]

One of my favorite exchanges I ever read on this site occurred shortly after I joined this site, and it's stuck with me ever since:
Player 1 I feel like my only options here are to A) either prove I'm a townie or B) convince you to lynch somebody else instead.
Player 2: The only way for you to do "A" is by dying, so if I were you I'd get started on "B".

Do you disagree with the arguments that vijay was making?

At the time that I made the post, I felt that his arguments were weak and a flimsy excuse to push attention off hinself. I have since voted VeeGee since Vijay has made a more concrete and sound argument against him.

It seems to me that the more concrete and sound argument you're referring to is pretty much repeating everything you described as weak and flimsy except to add that VeeGee continued his behavior.

Unvote

, by the way.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Also HC, Accountant just never read my case on VeeGee until summarised I think. Meanie.

I like most of your play today but this is bad. Accountant is a big girl who can answer her own questions.

gob, do you believe VeeGee is scum or not?

Yes, i do believe he is scum, at this point i believe he noticed that he had fucked up so he decided to go all out and vote me, trying to play it off as just a bad play. Not to mention all the other scummy shit he has done.

What other scummy stuff?

Oh, and. Haschel, who are your biggest scumreads and townreads?

I'll make a list later. For now I'm going to wait for all my questions to be answered.

[Haschel Cedricson]

To go on the opposite side of the spectrum my top town is probably Dessew, he has been providing clarity throughout the game, even if it was for the rolelist. He seems to be pushing the game forward as well as his own reads.

By the by, are you familiar with the acronym IIoA?

And Dessew, you haven't really commented on VeeGee/gob/vijay at all. Care to join the conversation?

[Haschel Cedricson]

What other scummy stuff?

First off his votes are all over the place[...]

He's placed exactly two votes outside of the RVS stage, and one of them was immediately retracted. How is that "all over the place"?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I didn't ignore. I assumed it was still RVS. I don't understand why it's weird if I don't hop onto the bandwagon. I mean, Trivium voted for himself for shits. I'm going to vote whomever I think is scum. I think it's a good thing for you if we don't mislynch you. If you read a little bit after the RQS by Trivium, I said I work full time, 8 hours a day, 6 days a week. I don't think I said anything about posting wise, but I try to get a post in after work or during breaks.

I'm not saying it's weird you didn't hop onto the bandwagon, I'm saying that it was concerning that you didn't mention it at all while it was happening. Same with the RQS thing; you said you work full time, but you didn't say it until AFTER I voted for you so that doesn't count.

At any rate, none of this is really relevant now and I don't understand why you're disproportionately defensive about this.

[Haschel Cedricson]

VOTE: Gob


Been wanting to, no idea why I didn't earlier.

VeeGee, why did you vote gob?

As for VeeGee's most recent post about his vote on gob, why? What're your reads on him?

This needs to be answered immediately. Like, in VeeGee's very next post.

Yay, people assuming that not liking two posts means scumreading.

Don't ignore this.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Don't see why I should, as I'm pretty sure I already did.

Where? Quote the post.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright. In post 89 you expressed mild suspicion at gob. In post 158, you vote for gob, saying that you don't know why you didn't earlier.

Are you saying that I should either, A: Keep voting texcat, even though I had no reason to, or B: Vote someone random?


I'm not doing either.

Let's talk about the false dichotomy here. You suggest that your options are either voting for a player you are not suspicious of, or voting for a player at random. Now, you leave off the option that you could vote for somebody you think is scum. And you've already made post 89, so in theory you think gob is scum at this point. How do you reconcile claiming 89 as a scumread while also apparently having no scumreads in 116?

[Haschel Cedricson]

VOTE: Gob


Been wanting to,

no idea why I didn't earlier.

Hmm, I interpreted you post to mean "I wanted to vote for gob but didn't for some reason; I don't know why I didn't earlier", but I suppose "I didn't know who I wanted to vote for for some reason; I don't know why I forgot I was suspicious of gob" is another reasonable interpretation.

Let's have some more reads. What do you think about Accountant?

[Haschel Cedricson]

What did she flip on?

[Haschel Cedricson]

@Hasschel, can you now explain the reasoning you wanted to keep secret from earlier?

I already did:

In addition to completely ignoring the Haschelwagon and the events leading up to it, you [SamX] ALSO ignored Trivium's RQS question, so I figured you were a good place to start getting information.

Moving on...

You clearly haven't read my case. It's fabulous, & it isn't long, so you really should.

One of those things is true. It isn't long, but it also isn't good.

Here, I've found it. gob's reaction to this question doesn't match up with scum-gob. Haschel's original question was worded in such a way, that it could (& did) easily have gob talk about other player's in general instead of vijay. (Namely, he asked why were vijay's posts half-assed in contrast to other player's posts, or something like that.) gob didn't even mention this. He isn't self-aware enough to know what questions he was asked. I mean, the "readlist" would've been unnecessarily flashy if he was scum & whatnot. The reason why I'm singling this one out, though, is that you cannot seriously think he would've faked it. So stop this thing of yours, & join the stoz wagon.

I disagree with your statement about my wording. The question"by what metric are vijay's posts half-assed, particularly when compared to the posts of half the players in this game?" clearly demands an answer that actually talks about vijay's posts, and gob's response comes across as an intentional question dodge. Also, your statement "stop this thing of yours" is weird. Like, really weird. For starters, I'm not actually voting for gob, and as of right now I'm not trying to convince others to do so, so I don't have a "thing". And if I do, I have it with a bunch of other players. Somebody who I'm not going to bother looking up floated the idea that the mutual defense between you two is scummy as hell, and your post does nothing but bolster that theory.

Speaking of gob: Here's the post where Accountant flips her read on gob:

he started off fine with clear reads and then went on into a ramble about newbie games and how his reads are always correct. If I had to guess he's VI/scum.

Do you disagree with her summary of your play? Where is the broken logic, and what is sloppy about this?

This is a frustrating game; when I look at everyone I see two townreads and a big ball of garbage.

[Haschel Cedricson]

One person i want to analyze is Klingoncelt.

[...]

In the end i believe Klingoncelt is Town. He has done enough to put himself in the lime-light but he is really doing nothing.

Interesting. Why klingoncelt?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I detest wallposts.

You're going to like me half the time and hate me half the time!

Hey gob, give me a four-or-five-word read on the following players: stoz, texcat, Accountant.

VeeGee, you may do this as well.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Hey gob, give me a four-or-five-word read on the following players: stoz, texcat, Accountant.

VeeGee, you may do this as well.

I'll do it too.

I wasn't asking you.

stoz: Town read, he is very helpful in his 9 posts and i can tell he is reading the game and keeping up.
I think his posts like #208 really show he is on the town side of things.

texcat: scum read, if we look at posts like #198 it shows her trying to twist my words. She has never crossed paths with anyone besides me or accountant really (outside of RVS)

Accountant: Town, i think my quick statement of accusing her of OMGUS was wrong before. She has been trying to better town in a way that is apparent, however, there is one thing i want to note.

She hardly took a stance on me in her large wall-text post.

i can understand that its day 1 and all but i really find this interesting as i thought the post itself was interesting but her final statements did not leave clarity on her stance.

Re: Texcat, how are your words being twisted?

As for Accountant, you think she is town, but you also argue her lack of stance in her wall post is a problem and then start implying that she is not town after all. This is contradictory.

Do you know what "particularly" means? Because I'm pretty sure you don't, & that's fine, because the topic here is not the quality of the English you are using, not even the quality of your posts, but wether gob is town or scum. So look it up in a dictionary & then adjust your read in the light of that.[/quote
My English is fine; the only problem here is you willfully failing to parse a simple sentence correct. As for my gob read, I asked him a question and he dodged it, so nothing changes there.

I'm a lazy bum, so I'm not gonna check it now, but iirc, Hopkirk was the first one, to make an association between gob and me, not stoz. Secondly, he's lying in that post.

You recall incorrectly. Secondly, where is the lie?

Okay, so I would like everyone who reads this post to post a quick(one sentence) read on me, plus an addendum about whether you think I'm fence-sitting.

I think you have made some really awful posts for which I can find no town motive.
Addendum: Fence-sitting is not the correct phrase to describe your stance on gob.

Addendum to the addendum:

Vote: Accountant

.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Haschel, can you ISO me so we know what awful posts you're referring to?

I'm not gonna quote your entire ISO, but here's the relevant parts:

Convince me why I should vote gob over you, VeeGee. Build a case against him, because right now I'm pushing for your lynch, not his.

This comes across as "I am willing to bus you, but I don't want to."

I agree that we need to lynch VeeGee, but we definitely should not hammer early. To be clear, I'm autolynching anybody that quickhammers VeeGee, even if VG turns out to be scum.

At the time this was posted VeeGee only had four votes on him and was in no practical danger of being quickhammered, so why bring it up as a possibility?

Town!Gob
- Posted a clear and unambiguous reads list early in the game. I can't imagine that scum would commit to a position so early, especially with such strong opinions.

Did you read his reads list? It didn't have strong opinions at all.

Town!Gob
[...]
- Has been transparent in his thinking. If he thinks someone is scum, he doesn't hesitate to say it. Same for townreads.
[...]
Scum!Gob
- Dodged quite a few questions. What does he have to hide?

These are mutually exclusive.

CONCLUSION:
Gob is vanilla townie : 0%
Gob is power role : 5% given his known meta for acting somewhat unbalanced as a PR
Gob is a clueless town member: 40%
Gob is scum: 60%

Gob is most likely VI/scum.

If you actually think that gob is definitely not a vanilla townie,

why the hell would you announce that in the thread?

I can see literally no scum motivation for that. Also, if he's not vanilla, and he's only 5% a power role, then where does 40% clueless town come from?

Haschel Cedricson is my top town read by far.

You've been talking me up quite a bit in this game, even in posts that supposedly have nothing to do with me. It's one thing for me to be a townread, but after a while it comes across as buddying.

Okay, so I would like everyone who reads this post to post a quick(one sentence) read on me, plus an addendum about whether you think I'm fence-sitting.

If you are town, why do you care what other people think about you? It's one thing to defend yourself against a case, but a general question like this is more about making sure you're

looking

town instead of actually

being

town.

[Haschel Cedricson]

And by what metric are vijay's posts half-assed, particularly when compared to the posts of half the players in this game?

I never said others posts were grade-A either, but i find the need to mention that Vijays in particular stood out to me as half-assed.

The Oxford Dictionary says:
particularly: adverb
1. To a higher degree than is usual or average
1.1. Used to single out a subject to which a statement is especially applicable
1.2. So as to give special emphasis to a point; specifically

HC: Why were vijay's posts half-assed?
gob: They were half-assed.'

Don't be willfully dense.

I'm a lazy bum, so I'm not gonna check it now, but iirc, Hopkirk was the first one, to make an association between gob and me, not stoz. Secondly, he's lying in that post.

You recall incorrectly. Secondly, where is the lie?

Hopkirk mentioned an associative between me and "someone he scumreads" (gob is heavily implied) in 193, so stoz didn't offer anything new in his 208. For the lies, look at the segment of the same post where I answered stoz. Seriously, I need to open the dictionary for you, now I'm supposed to read posts for you, the next time you'll ask me to chew your food for you. [/quote]
He did indeed offers something new because stoz was the first person to point out that the relationship went both directions. Also, I did read that segment of the post and I don't see you calling out any lies at all (my comments in blue):

stoz has virtually done nothing, which is fine by itself. The suspicious part is his tone. Example:

At first I thought Trivium's question was quite good, because it would force scum to declare if they are going to be active or lurk when they have less information on the game.

Upon thinking about it some more I realised that if Trivium was scum it could be a great tool to use to help forward a lynch on someone town who gets busy in real life.

Overall I'm going to have to treat it as null.

A meticulous piece of analysis of nothing with no real conclusion at the end. The time & energy he seems to devote to fence-sit is truly remarkable. The rest of his iso is better in the sense that he's more active, but he has just moved away from the total nihil, in the direction of one of the already established & discussed to death.

I agree this wasn't my best post, but I haven't been fence sitting, I've been sharing my observations and opinions when able.

Example? I haven't seen you put anything new into the game. The only thing you mentioned the first time was a past experience of yours. You used it not to join a dead-on-arrival wagon.

Opinions aren't inherently invalid just because somebody else also had them first, and stoz never claimed he was bringing things up for the first time. Not a lie.

I'm actually quite concerned with gob and Dessew defending each other. In #184 gob described Dessew as "my top town" when Dessew's contributions at that time were:

#79: "I wouldn't jump to conclusions regarding the alignments of [Haschel and Hopkirk]." and clarifies a mistake gob made.
#138: "First of all, let's not get carried away [with gobs list]"
#161: "Why [is VeeGee voting] Gob? Why not vijay?"
#182: "The time & energy [stoz] seems to devote to fence-sit is truly remarkable"

Almost everything has been about putting gob in a positive light.

Where? I called him town in 190, is that it?

Where indeed? If only stoz had cited specific posts where Dessew was doing that OH WAIT HE LITERALLY JUST DID:

#79: "I wouldn't jump to conclusions regarding the alignments of [Haschel and Hopkirk]." and

clarifies a mistake gob made

.
#138: "First of all, let's not get carried away

[with gobs list]

"
#161:

"Why [is VeeGee voting] Gob?

Why not vijay?"
#182: "The time & energy [stoz] seems to devote to fence-sit is truly remarkable"

If I had been voting or expressing suspicion of gob I really would believe Dessew was the gob defence force, so Dessew's vote on me is the only part that doesn't stack up. Perhaps Dessew is looking to start a counter-wagon that won't look like OMGUS?

Please, let's not adopt the habit of taking rhetoric questions. Do you think that or not?

Again, this is not a lie, nor is it you pointing out a lie.

[/quote]

This comes across as "I am willing to bus you, but I don't want to."

According to post #253, I'm the first to vote VeeGee, and I haven't taken my vote off since even though other lynch candidates(such as Dessew or gob, or even stoz) have been pointed out. Do you think a mafia would bus their buddy that far on Day 1.

Do I think scum would put pressure on their buddy at the start of the game and then look for a reason to leave? Sure. Also, you haven't moved your vote from him but you also haven't been trying very hard to convince other people to join you.

I was giving my best read on gob at that time. Perhaps you can't see any town motivation for that, but scum wouldn't have any reason to do so either(if I was scum and suspected gob was a powerful role, all I have to do is wait for night and go "pst! let's NK gob!".

At first this appears like a good point, but it ignores one important scenario: rolefishing.

"power role" referring to a powerful role, not a role with a night ability. Cop is an example of a power role; something like Deputy isn't.

Is this standard terminology on those other forums you mentioned? gob, can you confirm/deny?

I wanted feedback about whether gob's accusation of me fence-sitting had any substance, because if it was and people told me I was indeed engaged in fencesitting, that would be a sign to correct my behavior. Same with the reads; if 5 people had responded to that post with "I think you're filthy scum", that would be a sign that I was doing something wrong, especially since this is my first game on MafiaScum(I played in a newbie, but had to be replaced after 3 posts).

If you're worried that other people think you are fence-sitting, then you make sure that your stance is posted unequivocally and move on. There's no reason to test the waters to see if you need to "correct your behavior".

[Radja]

@Mod:

I am voting Accountant.

missed that, fixed it!

[Haschel Cedricson]

At work, will read and post when I get home.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright, I posted a big thing on Accountant and so far Accountant and gob were the only people to acknowledge it. Klingoncelt, Dessew, Hopkirk, please rectify that situation.

[Haschel Cedricson]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p7189127]2) Haschel, what are your feelings on Gob and VeeGee? If you have already posted them, please link so I can see.[/quote]
I think both of them are scummy, although neither is my preferred lynch for today.

My strongest scumreads are, in no particular order, Accountant, Dessew, Gob, and VeeGee/Wanderer; the bigger problem is I know they can't all be scum together.

Tonight's relatively busy; I'll try to see if things fall into place tomorrow after work.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I'm pro-Accountant lynch.

Also, I reread vijay with Salamence's comments in mind. Although I feel vijay is no longer my strongest townread, I don't see him as super-scummy, especially not to the extent that Salamence is saying. Am I missing something about the case?

Limited access until Monday evening

[Haschel Cedricson]

I'd say "good game", but I already said it in the Dead Thread two weeks ago.

Great modding, Radja.