Mini 1717 Alfred Hitchcock UPick [GAME OVER]

[Lying Cat]

VOTE: Concrete Angels

You picked the wrong character.

[Lying Cat]

VOTE: Thor

I'm going to a band thing for one of the kids, then I'll be at work until 6am tonight if anybody wants to jam.

[Lying Cat]

Steven no.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

You cannot cross the sea merely by standing and staring at the water. Do not let yourself indulge in vain wishes. Until you try, you do not know what you cannot do. If you are not afraid to face the music, you may someday lead the band. All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing. How was Einstein able to conceive the Theory of Relativity? He said the one crucial thing that helped him was his ability to visualise: what would it be like to be riding on the end of a light beam? Do not tell me this a difficult problem. If it were not difficult it would not be a problem. I do not seek. I find. Do not play for safety; it is the most dangerous thing in the world.

Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision, for the limits of the world. In the long run, men hit only what they aim at. Therefore, they had better aim at something high. If you have a lemon, make lemonade. Why not go out on a limb? That is where the fruit is Nothing determines who we will become so much as those things we choose to ignore.

And so, yes

Thank you

[Lying Cat]

My hydra partner blows at bookmarking things. Everyone point at him and call him names.

Also, Thor has not done anything alignment indicative yet, so I'm more than happy to let sthar8 ply the vote there for now.

Sakura is definitely worth the suspicion, which makes me like cat. The shift onto ved does not.

ETL has shown the minor towntells I'd expect from town her this early, but not enough to make that read solid.

Davsto can be put to fire. I'd pay to see that.

[Lying Cat]

I'm gonna take a moment to cry in public because ETL doesn't love me anymore.

-Jingle

[Lying Cat]

Fascinating, because I got the opposite impression. Care to share your reasoning?

Note to self, CA and Far side are not scum together.

[Lying Cat]

That was @ cat about far side, btw.

[Lying Cat]

oh. Farside? This just looks like town farside to me!

Why?

[Lying Cat]

Lying cat was probably jingle.

Anything that hasn't been flowery exposition or voting Thor is probably Jingle, but I can never tell for sure.

[Lying Cat]

Cat, talk to me about farside.

[Lying Cat]

V/LA for a few days.

I may need replacement but I'm going to try to figure things out. I'll let you guys know by Wednesday night.

[Lying Cat]

Okay, here's the rub. I'm soloing this game for the foreseeable future. sthar8 may come back, he may not, but I intend to rock the shit out of this game for him.

Rock the shit out of it.

Now who should I be voting?

[Lying Cat]

It occurs to me that Cataphant never responded to my questions before my absence. I'd like to rectify that. Cataphant, why do you believe farside to be town?

Thor, I'm not getting off my vanity wagon on you. It's too nice and shiny. And I'm too hip to follow all the other kids around. If all of your friends were lynching people, would you just follow along blindly?

[Lying Cat]

Okay, here's the rub. I'm soloing this game for the foreseeable future. sthar8 may come back, he may not, but I intend to rock the shit out of this game for him.

Rock the shit out of it.

Now who should I be voting?

If you're scum I'll rock the shit out of you. This time with ETL boost. Be warned.


If you're town, date me ^^

Ms

I'm sorry, you're not pretty enough for me. maybe if you looked like ETL.

Thor, I'm not getting off my vanity wagon on you. It's too nice and shiny. And I'm too hip to follow all the other kids around. If all of your friends were lynching people, would you just follow along blindly?

If I was voting a wagon that was going nowhere and wasn't pushing it - I'd hope so.
Then again, I try to play pro-town, so there may be a difference in playstyle there.

Ignoring the fact that I've got a nice shiny wagon for one here and I'm looking forward to keeping the seat warm, who do you want me to vote?

I could see the sakura wagon, but I'm not convinced yet. Your vedith push was meh. I'm already scumhunting elsewhere. And besides, there's more than one way to skin a horse.

[Lying Cat]

Hi, we totally did. Both heads. It's a meta and a gut thing, having played town and scum with her before. She's more aggressive as scum and the frustration over a spelling/comprehension issue looks genuinely towny.

Hrmm. Mayhaps you don't understand "talk to me about" but this is actually what I was looking for. I don't accept meta as a read on blind faith. I'd argue that your bit about arguing semantics is stupid. Scum are just as likely to be upset when they're misunderstood as town are. The aggressive bit is actually something we can work with though, so good job on that!

Farside, would you agree with Cat's meta there? Anyone else who knows Farside well?

In post 174, Lying Cat wrote:
Note to self, CA and Far side are not scum together.

Don't be dumb. I did the same thing to Guyett when we were partners together (with Flubber/ward).

LC looks town.

Did you now. What do you think I saw?

And sorry, but syncing is gonna take some time. I have some pressing RL bits at the moment and I'm gonna be sporadically available.

Oh, and Bulgey, talk to me. Whisper sweet cases into my ear. I'd love to know what graces your mind bubbles.

[Lying Cat]

And besides, there's more than one way to skin a horse.

Yes, the right way and the wrong way.
You and I both know your vote on me is a piddle pile of useless and you're not even backing it up - I'm asking you to defend that chosen course, don't hand me pablum in exchange.

Useless? That hurts my feeling. I feel it's serving a purpose quite adequately. It strikes me as quite odd that you disagree with my stated plan of action yet seem unwilling to try to sway me to another course.

You could, perhaps, explain why your wagon is better than mine instead of trying to convince me to abandon my ship without another boat in sight. But really, voting you is like a hobby at this point. Its relaxing.

@ca- nah, not the point of what I saw at all. The reason you aren't scum with far is the same reason she might be scum. As far as reads, you're slightly town, but you need to be more town. Far and cat are both possible scum for different, possibly mutually exclusive (although I'll think more on that) reasons.

I haven't bothered reading anyone else yet.

[Lying Cat]

I am amazed that this confuses you and strikes you as odd or weak from me - you have never seen this or done this before? I would call bullhooey on that claim, so where are you coming from?

I didn't say that. Anywhere. I just ignored your reasonable request and asked you to make a case. I don't really want to start a wagon right now, partly because I have no inclination to push it as vehemently as it deserves and partly because poking you like this is both enjoyable and asinine, which makes me giggle.

Frankly I'm willing to start survivalism voting but there isn't a solid counterwagon and somehow people think thats okay?

Besides Lying Cat who has expressed that idea?

I didn't say it was okay, I said I didn't want to do anything about it.


Okay, since nothing seems to be happening and I have the time, let me explain just a little bit.

Farside and CA are probably not scum together because of the same thing that made me think Far was scum.

Spoiler: Farside Quotes, because this post is already big enough and getting bigger.

Thor didn't even explain his read on davsto before she tried to turn everything he said into something scummy. In the end, he came out looking way more town than she did.

In my mind, if you really trust another player's skill to read a person better than yourself enough to sheep them, wouldn't you want to find out what they are seeing? She hasn't interacted with him at all. Instead, she's commented peripherally about how he's town and that's why she's sheeping him.

There's zero concern from her about Thor's stance or alignment at all. That's pretty incongruent.

This was how I was feeling when I read it.

There's zero concern from her about Thor's stance or alignment at all. That's pretty incongruent.

Do you usually have concerns on people you're townreading?

On page 1 or 2.... uh... yes. First of all, at the time you "sheeped", there was no reason to be townreading Thor. It was clearly an arbitrary selection. Secondly, are you so sure about your townread on him that you would not question it at all and follow him blindly?

This ^

Considering he asked you why you think they are town, have you considered that maybe he doesn't think they're town?

That has no bearing in any way, shape, or form to my read.
Of course he either does, or will claim, to not town read them - it doesn't matter.

I see someone trying to understand your point and I see his frustrations about your town read. I can see why he thought it was quick and questionable.

You do?
The only reason he tried to understand me was I pointed out that he was unevenly applying an issue to Sakura and not to me or himself. It was only then that he seemed to give a hang for understanding me, and I don't really get frustration from him either.

I can agree it could be read a squick and questionable - would have felt better if that had been his first read though...also, not really buying into caring about a quick and questionable town read on Day 1.

Can you back up this thought of yours?
It feels very weak.

What do you think of haca following you?

That it is in line with my general expectations of her - does it seem out of line for her play in your opinion?

I am townreading Thor.

Why?
Your only reason to seems to be based off a scum read of Sakura.

Most people find my reason's weak. You won't be the first and sure as shit won't be the last.
Why were you town reading a spot on page one?
Can you say they were strong?
I just do what I feel when I read things, maybe I should stop that but I see scum stubble more when pushed then town.

Concrete Angels, Thor665, Davsto, and Farside22 are townreads.

Null on Concrete currently but I agree with Thor and Dav

Hey farside, what's up?

Hey not sakura
I'm looking for some unfiltered thoughts from both of you too.
Not just defending but your stands so far.

I am townreading Thor.

p-edit: re: cat's post - "weirdly aggressive". Exactly.

Also please don't do the sqwauk thing. It gives me horrible flashbacks of Dark Age.

SQUAWK

This was a bad post. I know it's technically not game related but it's like you're trying to convey an "i don't give a fuck" attitude.

I don't even see how you come to that conclusion

Farside's reentry to the thread came with 2/3 of the post being agreement with ETL. Not just agreement, but "That's how I was feeling". And then she says "ETAngels is null", which doesn't sound like a reasonably or logical conclusion from her previous post. Literally 7 minutes before.

And then Cataphant tells me that farside is town. I'd REALLY like someone to tell me if the phant's meta read has groundwork or if it's just blatant rabbit out of ass style bullshit, but no one apparently cares to. Given that, I've put that whole can of worms on the backburner.

Next on the list is ETAngels, because if I can sort them I can figure out that interaction at least a little bit. ETL gave some minor townpoints at the very beginning, notably, acting lost and slowly catching her footing. Now, normally, I'd say ETL is like confscum because she hasn't even attempted to sort me and I'm kind of a scary bear, especially to someone who's seen me as scum when I'm on my game, but I've been having some major shit go down in RL and she knows a little bit about it. To that end, the fact that she's been giving me room and trying to get me to engage (See, An attempt to get me to engage via a nonagressive hands off request she knows I'll eventually respond to.) as well as likely telling MS to lay off me sometime in between 375 and then suggests either that she's a good friend trying to get me to deal with things at my own pace and stay in the game or that she's trying to get my head in the game and out of my own neuroses. Or both. For the moment, I'm taking that as a townread and a good friendship, and we'll evaluate as necessary. (btw, <3 ETL.)

Of course, that brings us to Sakura, which is probably where I would've put the vote if I'd been super active from the start, but here's the rub there: She's in survival mode. She's not gonna do anything alignment indicative right now because she's on the defensive with a big sign reading everyone's out to get me. My response to that is to leave her alone for a little bit and check back when she pops her head out of the turtle shell and I can harass her until I figure her alignment out.

Which leaves us to the other course: Thor. Thor hasn't actually done anything alignment indicative yet. His frustration with me is genuine, but would be regardless. And I'm beating him over the head with inane and stupid bullshit to get him to the point where he lashes out. But he's not responding to me as quickly as I'd like and I'm apparently gonna need to fall back on reading him by the value of his cases, which brings me back to something I asked a while ago.

Thor, who do you think I should be voting, and why?

[Lying Cat]

Far side is still ducking me.

LC's laser post was an ode to crappy play while trying to sound clever about it - and no one seems to have even bothered to read it.

Okay. Now please tell me why I should vote with you. Make a damn case, man. I shouldn't need to push YOU of all people this hard.

@lying cat: I have agreed with people before and still feel null about them. 1 or 2 good post mean nothing to me.

Sure you can. It still raised an eyebrow, and was still worth noting. Would you mind telling me why you thought Thor and Dav were town?

I'm worried that Davvy is just a scummy seeming dude. We're retracting our read on him a bit because while he is jumping all overt the place, we think might just be a bit lost!

@Lying cat,

"And then Cataphant tells me that farside is town. I'd REALLY like someone to tell me if the phant's meta read has groundwork or if it's just blatant rabbit out of ass style bullshit, but no one apparently cares to. Given that, I've put that whole can of worms on the backburner.
"

I've played with farside like 219084980243098423890342809423432894083489030 times and read her correctly most of them. Its not out of a hat. Your push on us is scummy as shit

We think there's a chance vedith is scum, but our eyes have gone elsewhere; We're both committed to the idea of Ankamius scum. He has just been sitting on the sidelines, and then when someone calls him out he attempts to buddy with them. Even if vedith is town (which is irrelevant) ank's response is just awkward. It's a good case, but it seems weird that he just like lays there and takes it. We hate to agree with thor, but this guy is totally scum
VOTE: ankamius

I FUCKED UP. THIS WAS US

Okay, and I still really don't care about your defense here, because that's absolutely not what I was asking for there. I want literally anyone other than you to respond and corroborate or deny your assertions. You actually cannot do that.

@farside: Is Cataphants assertion that they can meta read you true or false?



I'll try to get some ISOs done today and tomorrow, but who knows if I'll get to it.

[Lying Cat]

@Lying Cat - good plan, double down on the useless and try to pass it off as strategy.

@Pistach - how has a edits wagon been a thing in the last 72 hours? I don't think it has been a thing since about 24 after it first appeared, and why is this reaction about it only showing up now?

I am fascinated that people thing the least openly explained vote on Ank - and one that existed prior to a wagon rush - is the scum midst somehow. I look forward to this case being explored deeper. You all, clearly, have me dead to rights.

And if you think I'm being useless AND are interested in pushing the game forward, why not try to convince me of something? Anything really. Your fascinating refusal to push me towards usefulness seems kind of anti-thor.

I'm getting to the ISO's now. I'll let you know if I find anything interesting.

[Lying Cat]

You know what?

VOTE: Thor

He's playing spectacularly under par. He has yet to do anything town indicative of him, but his response to me has been clearly scum motivated. What better way to respond to someone who is actively pushing at you and trying to figure you out than continuing to call them stupid and ignoring their questions.

Added to that, his pushes this game don't seem to have the same purpose behind them as they normally do from Thor. We have the Vedith push which was a glorified lurker push lasting long after he became one of the more prevalent players in the thread. When challenged on his votepark by Ank, he OMGUS's as opposed to, you know, defending his wagon or pushing it.

If I was voting a wagon that was going nowhere and wasn't pushing it - I'd hope so.
Then again, I try to play pro-town, so there may be a difference in playstyle there.

For reference, hypocrisy in scumhunting. I'm really not a big fan.

In fact, ETL's analysis of the wagon is perhaps too forgiving. Current operating theory- wagon is scumdriven because the Sakura wagon died out.

ETL, Ank, come join me.

Ankamius

: Considering how your wagon formed versus how Hecatia's formed, do you still consider them town?

False dichotomy and loaded question. It has been noted.

[Lying Cat]

@LC - wth... were you high? I know you know you were already voting Thor, and I know you saw that I am voting Thor now as well, because you responded to posts before and after my vote.

I uh... I didn't include you in my ISO's and forgot that you'd voted him. But good job on doing what I asked you to do before I asked you to do it!

Lying Cat - so, to sum up, I am scummy for dismissing what you're doing while pushing me. This is shown by me not being amused by your attempted dismissal of my raised issue with how you are voting and not offering to push you to vote where I want even though I never indicated that was my goal.

Whut?

Nah. Although I could see where a four year old could get that out of my post. You on the other hand have shown much higher reading comprehension in the past. Your frustration with my voteparking you is fully null. The fact you haven't done anything to change it is not.

Your pushes being lackluster and for shitty reasons is about as alignment indicative as it gets from you. But what really takes the cake is the hypocrisy. You were yelling at me for voting you and asking other people questions while not actually doing anything about my vote while YOU were voting Ved and asking other people questions while not actually doing anything about your vote.

Spoiler: Thor's mention of Vedith between voting and unvoting him

I know you said you don't see the point in explaining your town read on Cat. I also get that it may be unconventional. However, I do feel that enough people have asked and enough people are interested - myself included - that you should just tell us. It would help me understand you better, give me insight into what you are thinking, and that would help me to read you better. Is that not a good enough reason to share your thoughts?

People say stuff like this, and then do nothing with the info.
Tell you what though - get two additional people to say they'll "get a read off Thor" if i reveal the info and then I'll do so immediately.
I expect to then be massively underwhelmed and mostly get to listen to people noting that it is a shallow/thin read.

Aaaand...... you've been consistently posting elsewhere.

So... yeah. I'm very happy with my vote now.

This is true.

Unvote: Davsto
Vote: Vedith

Thor, I'd like you to explain the Cataphant townread. That was my one hangup about you and I'd like it cleared up.

How is not explaining a soft townred (with reasons given why I'm not) from RVS a "hangup" about me?

For the rest who say that this is a valid argument, explain how and explain your scum read further.

Ooooh, he calls me out, not by name, but in a general call out.
That's good, I have a collection of gauntlets.

Let's talk;

First off your Saturday/Friday thing is silly - people's date/times are set by them, not other posters. So, probably for however he had the board configured you had posted on Friday. For me, you posted Saturday - but at 4:30am Saturday. I bet that's not what your post indicates - and it doesn't matter.

Second off, his lurking call on you is perfectly valid - when he called you out on it I went and pulled up your post iso and scrolled back through *4 pages* of posts found in other threads than this one. If you were only doing 1-3 in friend's threads, then you have a lot of friends' threads to post in and probably need to replace out of this game to fulfill that massive time obligation elsewhere.

Also, by my accounting, you *did* show aggressive activity elsewhere and not here, so a call that you are lurking in this thread is provable, and, consequently, vote worthy if I find that suspect.
And I do.

If you would like to use your next post or two here inbetween dozens and dozens of posts elsewhere to offer a few reads and look generically towny maybe I'll unvote you.
If you would like to justify why you're ducking this thread compared to others maybe I'll unvote you.
If you would like to explain why this case is unfounded, maybe I'll unvote you.

But as currently stands I want to speed lynch you, and think more people should vote you now, as all you're doing is slappy defense and not scumhunting.

Well, Thor's post to me doesn't make sense.

Which part is confusing to you - it seems fairly straightforward,
I called you a lurker and offered support of that opinion, and noted that I found it scummy.

So you understood it - you just disagree with it?

But while he's doing virtually nothing with regards to Vedith, who he's voting, he calls me out for voting him while engaging other people. He insinuates that it's bad play, but he's doing the same thing. He's talking to CA and Farside over the top of Vedith, but he never moves the vote. He flat out refused the multiple requests on my part to try to convince me to vote with him while criticizing me for not trying to convince other people to vote with me.

And there's the Ank vote, which sucks large smurf, if you'll pardon the language.

@ ETL, can you answer my question to you in my wall?

Nope. It was an alt game, so I'd rather not, but you can just as easily look at the player's completed games under his topic list.

Remember the hydra, ESL. The Hydra!

[Lying Cat]

Next on the list is ETAngels, because if I can sort them I can figure out that interaction at least a little bit. ETL gave some minor townpoints at the very beginning, notably, acting lost and slowly catching her footing. Now, normally, I'd say ETL is like confscum because she hasn't even attempted to sort me and I'm kind of a scary bear, especially to someone who's seen me as scum when I'm on my game, but I've been having some major shit go down in RL and she knows a little bit about it. To that end, the fact that she's been giving me room and trying to get me to engage (See, An attempt to get me to engage via a nonagressive hands off request she knows I'll eventually respond to.) as well as likely telling MS to lay off me sometime in between 375 and then suggests either that she's a good friend trying to get me to deal with things at my own pace and stay in the game or that she's trying to get my head in the game and out of my own neuroses. Or both. For the moment, I'm taking that as a townread and a good friendship, and we'll evaluate as necessary. (btw, <3 ETL.)

Nah. I've already gone into it a little bit, but you know a bit of what's going on with me in RL and thus there's gonna be a whole hell of a lot of interference between us to stop me from reading you. Your alignment will be obvious enough soon enough.

[Lying Cat]

Your pushes being lackluster and for Smurfy reasons is about as alignment indicative as it gets from you. But what really takes the cake is the hypocrisy. You were yelling at me for voting you and asking other people questions while not actually doing anything about my vote while YOU were voting Ved and asking other people questions while not actually doing anything about your vote.

There is zero hypocrisy from me - I made it very explicitly clear that my issue was single vote wagons - which I was never part of.

So you are either lying and intentionally misleading, or are too dense to understand the difference between a single and multiple vote wagon and why I would have an issue with one moreso than another.

Which is it?

Hmmm. Your issue with single vote wagons is that they are useless and unlikely to go anywhere, correct? And I'm saying your vote was useless and unlikely to go anywhere. I don't see a purpose in saying "Yeah, other people were voting on the wagon with me" when my issue is hypocrisy in intentions, not hypocrisy in words. Unless you'd like to argue that your vote was useful and likely to actually lead to something?

[Lying Cat]

Only because he asked me to support my vote. When people ask me stuff I provide.

News to me. Let me go find all of the places I asked you to convince me to vote someone. Or any of the games where people asked you to read the thread after you replaced in. Hell, AFAIK, let me go find any of your games at all.

Now stop talking out of your ass.

[Lying Cat]

Hmmm. Your issue with single vote wagons is that they are useless and unlikely to go anywhere, correct?

That is correct - but your issue holds the belief that a 2 vote (second largest wagon at the time) wagon is the same as a one vote silent for many pages wagon (since RVS, basically) are equal in my mind for it to be hypocrisy.
They are not equal in my mind, and nothing I said indicated as such.
What I'm asking you to defend is the hypocrisy issue.
If your simple issue is "Thor, I also find your vote useless" I suppose we can debate that (I will note, since then, I angled my vote somewhere quite different in line with my apparent mental concept of optimal voting as expressed, while you are still diddling about and, as far as I can tell, derp lying to my face)

I am flat out saying that your wagon was useless and not likely going anywhere. I am flat out saying that you were doing the same questioning from the sidelines while not actually changing your vote that I was doing. I am stating that your stated issue with my behavior is bullsmurf, and that "yeah, but there was someone else voting with me" is disingenuous. If you'd like to argue that yours is a prettier shade of grey than mine, then have at it, but I dislike being forced to define terms.

I don't see a purpose in saying "Yeah, other people were voting on the wagon with me" when my issue is hypocrisy in intentions, not hypocrisy in words. Unless you'd like to argue that your vote was useful and likely to actually lead to something?

My vote was more useful than yours.
At the time it had been placed had more use than yours.
And has since been moved to a wagon with more use than yours.
Yes - I would argue that.

What I'm asking you to defend is the claim of hypocrisy - you seem to be shifting to "similar to hypocrisy in a general theme, but not quite hypocrisy" am I correct in that?
Insomuch as your raised issue is now being reworked to "Your vote was useless, so whether or not mine was useless for different reasons you're not allowed to call it out" <-- is that about right?
I disagree with that premise, but is that your raised issue?

No it wasn't. Your vote was on a dying wagon. A bad dying wagon. And no. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. You were criticizing me for a behavior that you yourself were engaged in, calling it useless and scummy. More to the point, both of us had roughly the same presence in thread without our votes, and yet what I was doing still ranks as useless.

On the other note, let's talk about where your vote is now. Do you disagree with my perceived reason for you Ank vote? If so, what was your reason for your Ank vote?

Only because he asked me to support my vote. When people ask me stuff I provide.

News to me. Let me go find all of the places I asked you to convince me to vote someone. Or any of the games where people asked you to read the thread after you replaced in. Hell, AFAIK, let me go find any of your games at all.

Wow.
Are you having an argument with me about things that are not about alignment but about a personal issue with how I play?
Let's run these down.

1. Asking me to talk you into who to vote when I want to understand who and why you want to vote someone is "slightly" different than being asked "why are you voting someone" especially when I'd already explained why I was voting Vedith quite clearly - unless you weren't reading gak. I don't even get the issue here - you claimed to be aware of my presented case, so why were you asking for it to be repeated?

2. Demanding that I read the game and being told why I won't is a request and a provided answer - whether or not it is the answer you want is another matter. Being asked to advance your case or move to what you consider a better case and being told "why don't you tell me who to vote" is a reply - but it is a dodge and abdication of responsibility - therefore it is not valid to what is, in effect, push a top functional scumread of yours instead of sitting silent on a dead wahgon.

3. Feel free to search my games to find me refusing to state my top scumread, reasons for voting them, a desire to advance the L-1 lynch condition of Day 1, and an annoyance at people sitting on no votes or 1 vote wagons while doing nothing. I am suuuuure you'll find a lot of evidence to back your hypocrisy claim.[/sarcasm and attitude of ownership towards weak attack]

Whassup?

No, I actually don't take issue with any of those things. I do them myself in fact. I'm taking offense at you talking out of your ass to deflect questions. Which, actually, I do myself, too. Only I do that last bit mostly as scum.

1. Is it your assertion that your presented case on Vedith was the reason you were voting him until your vote changed, and that you had no additional case or reasons? Because I think your case on Vedith was gak.

2. I made no secret of the fact that I didn't particularly have someone I wanted to vote at the time. That'd be part of the reason for asking people who they think is scummy and why, to weigh those responses and decide who is or is not vote worthy. If you can't understand that, you may be playing the wrong game.

3. Nah, I know enough about your modus operandi to not need to search your games. I do have a question for you. What about the Vedith wagon was: stating your top scumread, reasons for voting them, or meaningfully working to advance the L-1 lynch condition of Day 1? Cause that'd be my problem here. I don't believe Vedith was your top scumread at the time. I can't believe town you held the vote there for so long on such shaky ground when you obviously had other suspisions, and you were sitting on a wagon that was obviously going no where.

[Lying Cat]

Spoiler: Walls for the Wall God (A back and forth with Thor)

No it wasn't. Your vote was on a dying wagon. A bad dying wagon. And no. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. You were criticizing me for a behavior that you yourself were engaged in, calling it useless and scummy. More to the point, both of us had roughly the same presence in thread without our votes, and yet what I was doing still ranks as useless.

I got off the wagon after death - as opposed to still sitting there with my thumb up my butt - as you appeared contented to do with your vote on me.
No, you are stretching for the hypocrisy call.
And even if you think it's hypocritical and that I consider them identical situations - it hardly raises an actual valid issue with me not being willing to justify where you should move to when I asked you to move or start pushing. Nor why you were asking me to explain a case you were aware I'd already explained (an issue you didn't deem worthy of addressing even though I asked you about it).

Ok. 418 you mention there are many places you are poking that have support. ETL asked you to vote her. Your wagon was dead. Why did you not move your vote?

On the other note, let's talk about where your vote is now. Do you disagree with my perceived reason for you Ank vote?

Dunno - to the best of my awareness all you have offered is "it sucks".
Are you seriously asking me to address that? Don't be a dick.
If not - hat was your assessment?

I think that it sucks largely because there was no stated reasons (or indeed, anything I saw as a valid reason.) In 551 I clearly addressed your push as being a reaction to Ank defending Vedith. In a post I apparently didn't end up making (which is my fault and I retract the issue) I asked you if the extent of your case was that Ank was defending a townread.

If so, what was your reason for your Ank vote?

The way he responded to Vedith offering up a case on him was to point out how townish Vedith was.
I basically never see that reaction from anyone - no one agrees with a case made on them, because either they're scum and defending or town and know it's wrong.
I see it as more likely to be scum trying to act town than town suddenly deciding the case on them is good.

What are your thoughts on Ank?

I've had that reaction before as both alignments. The logical opposite to your assertion is that everyone who thinks you are scum must certainly be scum. Which is laughable.

I think Ank is probably town as of right now. I didn't see anything in his ISO to justify the amount of pressure he's currently under, which is usually a slight situational towntell at this point in the game.

1. Is it your assertion that your presented case on Vedith was the reason you were voting him until your vote changed, and that you had no additional case or reasons? Because I think your case on Vedith was gak.

Yes, I am taking the shocking stance that the case I offered on Vedith is, indeed, my case.
That is actually, even if it's a "Gak case" a more logical presumption then that I was just making up stuff as a joke and had a hidden real case that you needed to ask me about to hear.
Seriously?

You'd be surprised how often I see people keep reasons close to their chest, for good or ill. But do you dispute that at [p]418[/p] in the thread you had stronger scumreads with more viable wagons? Why did you cling to the Vedith case so long?

2. I made no secret of the fact that I didn't particularly have someone I wanted to vote at the time. That'd be part of the reason for asking people who they think is scummy and why, to weigh those responses and decide who is or is not vote worthy. If you can't understand that, you may be playing the wrong game.

If you have no scum reads Day 1, you should sheep a town read.
If you have no reads at all Day 1 you should vote a wagon with activity just to add pressure while asking questions to develop reads.
Which of those statements do you disagree with via your understanding of the game?

Both, actually, but mostly the second. If you don't have any reads, you do what you need to do to develop them or you replace out because you're obviously not playing the game. Voting blindly is counterproductive. Even if you have scumreads, it's sometimes worth more to engage them without a vote.

3. Nah, I know enough about your modus operandi to not need to search your games.

So we agree that, whether you like my play or not, it's not alignment indicative what you're digging at me over?
because otherwise - what are you on about?

Because I've never seen you cling to a nonindicative case to the exclusion of actual scumreads before, and it's making me think you're scum.

I do have a question for you. What about the Vedith wagon was: stating your top scumread, reasons for voting them, or meaningfully working to advance the L-1 lynch condition of Day 1? Cause that'd be my problem here.

Um - I don't follow.
By voting him, I called him my top scumread.
I gave reasons for voting him.
I added to a sudden snap wagon that had an assured chance to advance to L-1 moreso than any other current wagon at that point.

Even if you disagree and think I'm wrong - it's clear that I was voting someone while calling them scummy and adding to a wagon, so even if you think i did it sloppily, gakkily, and in a weak-arse manner; I do appear to be trying to be aggressive with my vote and push a wagon. So...?

At first, sure. But you stopped fighting for your lynch. You treated others, particularly Farside and CA, with much more suspicion than you treated Vedith, and your stated reason of him lurking while being active elsewhere was resolved.

I don't believe Vedith was your top scumread at the time.

So?

So, the stated intention and the perceived intention do not align. Meaning, likely, that you are scum.

I can't believe town you held the vote there for so long on such shaky ground when you obviously had other suspisions

Nothing about my play in any other game should lead to this conclusion.

and you were sitting on a wagon that was obviously going no where.

And moved off it shortly after it dismantled.

[/quote]

Are you telling me that as town, you have a habit of pursuing weaker scumreads over strong ones? Because that's like, the opposite of what I've come to expect of you. You're confident and outspoken (at least on site) and you have no problems with doggedly going after whoever you think is scummiest. Or am I confused? Also:

Vedith - 2 (Thor665, Cataphant)

Vedith - 2 (Thor665, Cataphant)

Roughly five days, only paying attention to Vote Counts, is shortly after?

I suppose the meat and potatoes of this post is:

Thor, how has your read of farside changed throughout the thread? Specifically, what was it at post 418 and what is it now?

[Lying Cat]

@Lying Cat

What are you even complaining about?

What I'm getting from that back and forth is "I knwo Thor plays bad, but I don't think he plays *this* bad, and I needed him to explain something he'd already explained because I think he was lying about his reason as town/scum because it was a weaker reason then I'd expect from him as town/scum"

Like - I really don't even understand where you're going.
You seem to just be needling me awkwardly while not actually showing why anything you're bringing up is different from a playstyle issue.

Am I wrong?

Yes, you are. I don't think Thor plays bad. I think Thor plays a hard and fast aggressive game that leaves little for him to be read on. I also think that Thor is misrepresenting his reads, which makes the most sense from scum-Thor either attempting to forge or hide connections between him and other players.

[Lying Cat]

I'm splitting this into two posts, because there's really two different concerns here. First your initial behavior and defense thereof. But you weren't putting pressure on Ved at that point. The wagon had already derailed, and you hadn't mentioned him in pages. On the other hand, you were pushing hard at both ETL and farside, but voting neither of them. I'll admit that getting a wagon on ETL would have been difficult, but there was more than enough tacit support for a farside wagon at the time. Your actions support a farside scumread over a Vedith one, but your vote doesn't.

For reference, what is your thought process on why someone posting elsewhere but not here makes them scum?

Also, are you admitting to overstating your read on Vedith and were voting for pressure? Or at least to misrepresenting your reads?

[Lying Cat]

Vedith makes a case on Ank.
Ank holds it up as an example of how town Vedith is.
To have this belief, theoretically, Ank would need to look at the scumhunting and see logic and town intent.
But, at the same point, being town, Ank should be well aware that Vedith is wrong or using poor logic.
Sure, maybe he thinks Vedith is town for days - but he shouldn't think that a case suggesting he is scum equates to good work for people to see good work and town intent.
It doesn't follow.

Is the supposition here that it is impossible to follow a logical progression and be wrong? Or that you cannot see town intent in something that is wrong? In that vein, I notice you have not yet called me scum. What is your read on me?

[Lying Cat]

@ Lying Cat/Thor, is this back and forth helpful? Because I just got to the point where I've started to glaze over your argument. I suggest stepping back and letting others catch up and not cause them to get apathetic by the overposting. I especially want Pistachion, Davsto, Massive, and Cataphant to post a whole lot more.

In short, yes. It is important. I'd be okay with tabling it for now after Thor's response though.

And I'm well aware of the danger of overposting. It's why I've been spoilering things whenever possible.

[Lying Cat]

I didn't forget about you and I'm caught up. I'm just not gonna make a meaningful post tonight. See you tomorrow afternoon.

[Lying Cat]

Spoiler: Nacho Responses

@Lying Cat:

Of course, that brings us to Sakura, which is probably where I would've put the vote if I'd been super active from the start, but here's the rub there: She's in survival mode. She's not gonna do anything alignment indicative right now because she's on the defensive with a big sign reading everyone's out to get me. My response to that is to leave her alone for a little bit and check back when she pops her head out of the turtle shell and I can harass her until I figure her alignment out.

The belief that Sakura can't be read when she's on the defensive is... strange? As scum, she realizes that people are less inclined to attack her when she's on the defensive and thus goes on the defensive more often; I'm also surprised you're not attacking her hydra partner as a result of this belief because his posts are much more problematic than hers.

At the time, she'd already pulled back into survival mode, voting in order to save herself and only responding. The motivation there (I don't want to be lynched) is the same from both town and scum her. I didn't particularly see a reason to poke her when she would likely have acted the same way regardless of alignment.

Are you saying that she is more likely to get to that place, a survival mode, as scum? From what I know of her, I figured it'd be fairly alignment neutral, actually.

Farside's reentry to the thread came with 2/3 of the post being agreement with ETL. Not just agreement, but "That's how I was feeling". And then she says "ETAngels is null", which doesn't sound like a reasonably or logical conclusion from her previous post. Literally 7 minutes before.

Your argument that farside agreed with ETL twice and thus should be town reading ETL is a weak one. I can agree/disagree with someone plenty but that doesn't translate into town/scumreading them as a result; most people are that way. It's not like farside went "man, ETL is killing this game, I'm agreeing with everything she's doing holy shit also she's null".

No. She came back into the thread mentioning only ETL as null. She quoted things from ETL that she agreed with, nothing questionable, and announced a townread on two people that I'm pretty sure she didn't quote and a nullread on ONLY ETL. No read at all on anyone else she quoted, as far as I remember, and no one asking for her read on ETL. I mean, I'm not actually gonna go back and check atm, but it definitely struck me as something worth noting.

He's playing spectacularly under par. He has yet to do anything town indicative of him, but his response to me has been clearly scum motivated. What better way to respond to someone who is actively pushing at you and trying to figure you out than continuing to call them stupid and ignoring their questions.

The way you're trying to figure him out is by doing nothing and asking him to sell you on his vote. I can see why he would regard that push as stupid and instead would rather see you do something else. Maybe you're right and he truly believes that if he explains why he's voting who he's voting and try to sell you on it that he will be revealed as scum and lynched, but I doubt it.

Fair point, and I'll take your point of view under account.

Hmmm. Your issue with single vote wagons is that they are useless and unlikely to go anywhere, correct? And I'm saying your vote was useless and unlikely to go anywhere. I don't see a purpose in saying "Yeah, other people were voting on the wagon with me" when my issue is hypocrisy in intentions, not hypocrisy in words. Unless you'd like to argue that your vote was useful and likely to actually lead to something?

I don't think Thor's vote on Vedith was useless. I can see Thor viewing your vote on him to be useless.
I'd like to think the reason for different views on similar votes to be obvious, but maybe I'm wrong? Let me know if so.

It really was useless. It was a sheeped lurker push that started on like page seven. Vedith has since then been moderately active, but Thor didn't do shit with his vote for quite a while after that. And I'd love any insight you have into the differences he sees.

Spoiler: Wingback

A few more follow-up questions for Lying Cat:

The reason you aren't scum with far is the same reason she might be scum.

What would this reason be and why does it mean that Concrete can't be scum with Farside?

Already been answered.

As far as reads, you're slightly town, but you need to be more town. Far and cat are both possible scum for different, possibly mutually exclusive (although I'll think more on that) reasons.

I can maybe see where you are coming from here since Cataphant's defense of Farside doesn't look like scum defending their partner. Do you have more fleshed out reasons for this?

Generally, when I see someone call someone else town w/out any reasoning and without any pressure being placed on them, especially when the latter person was doing something I found questionable at best, I'm wary. Scum doesn't usually jump to announce townreads of their partner for no reason though.

I also don't think I fully understand your basis for Post 457. You say things like:

Next on the list is ETAngels.

Of course, that brings us to Sakura.

Which leaves us to the other course: Thor.

This gives me the impression that there's some sort of "list" you are working with that you aren't fully disclosing. For instance, why are Farside, Cataphant, Concrete, Hecatia, and Thor the only ones you are talking about? What happened to the rest of the playerlist? The time has come to unravel what was behind the scenes.

That would be a playstyle thing. Entering into any game, I have a list. That list is based off of one of two things based on my alignment: My ability to read the player/expectations of their usefulness OR the player's ability to read me/ability to lynch them later. ETL and Thor are basically the top of both lists for this playerlist, thus a first priority to figure out. Farside is slightly lower. Hecatia's presence in my "I actually give a shit about these players" pile comes from her early presence as a wagon. Cataphant popped up via interactions I noted as fishy above.

And I'm beating him over the head with inane and stupid bullshit to get him to the point where he lashes out.

And you are doing this why exactly? Has there been a time in the past where Thor lashed out at you and you ended successfully ended up reading him as town? If so, link me to that game.

You've non-RVS voted in this game twice. In Post 132, you voted Thor. In Post 551, you voted Thor (again). That's it. Why are you so obsessed with Thor?

See above: Thor is high priority. If possible, I want a townread or hard scumread on him today. His normal play is largely alignment neutral, so the attempt to get him to play a more proactive and emotional game is an attempt to shake him up and make him more readable. Not out of some prior success, but an attempt to try something new.

Also, as far as I can remember, we've never both been town in a game.

@Lying Cat:

Of course, that brings us to Sakura, which is probably where I would've put the vote if I'd been super active from the start, but here's the rub there: She's in survival mode. She's not gonna do anything alignment indicative right now because she's on the defensive with a big sign reading everyone's out to get me. My response to that is to leave her alone for a little bit and check back when she pops her head out of the turtle shell and I can harass her until I figure her alignment out.

The belief that Sakura can't be read when she's on the defensive is... strange? As scum, she realizes that people are less inclined to attack her when she's on the defensive and thus goes on the defensive more often; I'm also surprised you're not attacking her hydra partner as a result of this belief because his posts are much more problematic than hers.

Farside's reentry to the thread came with 2/3 of the post being agreement with ETL. Not just agreement, but "That's how I was feeling". And then she says "ETAngels is null", which doesn't sound like a reasonably or logical conclusion from her previous post. Literally 7 minutes before.

Your argument that farside agreed with ETL twice and thus should be town reading ETL is a weak one. I can agree/disagree with someone plenty but that doesn't translate into town/scumreading them as a result; most people are that way. It's not like farside went "man, ETL is killing this game, I'm agreeing with everything she's doing holy shit also she's null".

He's playing spectacularly under par. He has yet to do anything town indicative of him, but his response to me has been clearly scum motivated. What better way to respond to someone who is actively pushing at you and trying to figure you out than continuing to call them stupid and ignoring their questions.

The way you're trying to figure him out is by doing nothing and asking him to sell you on his vote. I can see why he would regard that push as stupid and instead would rather see you do something else. Maybe you're right and he truly believes that if he explains why he's voting who he's voting and try to sell you on it that he will be revealed as scum and lynched, but I doubt it.

Hmmm. Your issue with single vote wagons is that they are useless and unlikely to go anywhere, correct? And I'm saying your vote was useless and unlikely to go anywhere. I don't see a purpose in saying "Yeah, other people were voting on the wagon with me" when my issue is hypocrisy in intentions, not hypocrisy in words. Unless you'd like to argue that your vote was useful and likely to actually lead to something?

I don't think Thor's vote on Vedith was useless. I can see Thor viewing your vote on him to be useless.
I'd like to think the reason for different views on similar votes to be obvious, but maybe I'm wrong? Let me know if so.

Alternatively, I could see Lying Cat and Thor as scum together fabricating this argument. Both seem the type to be capable of orchestrating a natural-looking interaction as scum.

I most definitely could. Scum-theater is my favorite. Not in this case though.

Someone asked how I felt about the farside catchup posts. I don't. Catchup posts are incredibly easy to fake, so I'm waiting until she posts something original before looking back to figure anything out.

And I've also been asked to elaborate on reads-

Concrete Angels- mild town, not a pressing concern do to personal reasons.
pistachi0n- null. I need to sit down and address that, though.
massive- Null. Also, likely to get ignored by me for a long time.
Cataphant- Scum. mostly gut, tbh, with the exception of things I've already addressed.
Hecatia Lapislazuli- mild town by situation. Town by claim.
farside22- mild scum, but unaddressable until she gets her head in the game.
Davsto- Town by claim.
Wingback- mild scum. Sitting back and taking a manipulative stance. [p]453[/p] pings hard. Not making waves. Still useful enough that I don't want to lynch D1.
Nachomamma8- Town. Minor paranoia, because I default to town with him, but not worth readdressing yet.
Ankamius- mild town.
Thor665- Minor scum.
Vedith- town by situation.

[Lying Cat]

Hey, busy until late tonight, but I'm gonna claim to have a confirmable role.

Given that two of the scumroles are known, that means the odds are I'm gonna be conftown sooner rather than later.

At the moment, it is neither prudent nor necessary to tell anyone what my role actually is, but ETL will be able to confirm I targeted her during the next day phase.

[Lying Cat]

That doesn't alleviate my scum read given two other roles have already outed. I want the claim.

I also suspect you are using the word "conftown" rather liberally.

I, uh... Let's see here. There are two known quantities here. Scum have a ninja and a backup ninja. Whenever the third member of their team flips, I will be confirmed town by virtue of the fact that my role is confirmable. Also worth noting, the only purpose my claim would have is to help scum determine whether I'm a higher priority kill than either of the other claimed PRs.

VOTE: lying cat

"I'm going to claim a confirmable role...later"

= scumclaim

(still behind, though)

Yes. And I'm completely lying, despite the fact that if I were lying about my role, I'd be powerlynched immediately tomorrow. My role is so hyper important to the scumteam that delaying my lynch one day is of paramount importance.



Okay, I'm gonna read up now.

[Lying Cat]

What would this reason be and why does it mean that Concrete can't be scum with Farside?

Already been answered.

Where? Quote it.

Farside's original catchup being mostly ETL then calling out ETL as her only null read, despite there being others in her catchup and inexplicable townreads does not come from a scumbuddy.

That would be a playstyle thing. Entering into any game, I have a list. That list is based off of one of two things based on my alignment: My ability to read the player/expectations of their usefulness OR the player's ability to read me/ability to lynch them later. ETL and Thor are basically the top of both lists for this playerlist, thus a first priority to figure out. Farside is slightly lower. Hecatia's presence in my "I actually give a shit about these players" pile comes from her early presence as a wagon. Cataphant popped up via interactions I noted as fishy above.

I don't think I understand what the lists are. List 1 is your ability to read the player/usefulness? That's not the same thing so how is that on the same list? List 2 is player's ability to read you/your ability to lynch them? They're not the same thing either. Clarify these things.

A list can be ordered by two different criteria. It's not a black and white valuation. The people who are both useful and readable are on top of list one. The people who are mildly useful and completely readable feature about as high as the people who are completely useful and mildy readable. The people who are neither are at the bottom. Rocket Science 101, that.

See above: Thor is high priority. If possible, I want a townread or hard scumread on him today. His normal play is largely alignment neutral, so the attempt to get him to play a more proactive and emotional game is an attempt to shake him up and make him more readable. Not out of some prior success, but an attempt to try something new.

If his play looks alignment-neutral to you, why wouldn't you prioritize reading players whose play

doesn't

look alignment-neutral from you POV? Normally when someone has a lot of null posts, I try to read others who don't, first.

No? I excel in breaking setups. In manipulation. In chaining actions. It is therefore far more productive to determine if the people who can help/hinder that in me are town than to sort the unknown qualities of others.

Hecatia Lapislazuli- mild town by situation. Town by claim.
Davsto- Town by claim.
Vedith- town by situation.
Nachomamma8- Town. Minor paranoia, because I default to town with him, but not worth readdressing yet.
Concrete Angels- mild town, not a pressing concern do to personal reasons.
Ankamius- mild town.
pistachi0n- null. I need to sit down and address that, though.
massive- Null. Also, likely to get ignored by me for a long time.
farside22- mild scum, but unaddressable until she gets her head in the game.
Wingback- mild scum. Sitting back and taking a manipulative stance. [p]453[/p] pings hard. Not making waves. Still useful enough that I don't want to lynch D1.
Thor665- Minor scum.
Cataphant- Scum. mostly gut, tbh, with the exception of things I've already addressed.

(Re-arranged so I can keep them in perspective)

Why are all your behavioral townreads besides Vedith "mild?" And all of your scumreads besides Cataphant are "mild" or "minor." Why no strong reads at all? Is this normal for you?

What of Vedith's "situation" do you read as town?

Why are you "defaulting" to town on Nacho?

Yeah, the reads are less solid than normal, but I'm not really surprised. Normally, not having a hard townread on ETL would be concerning, for example.

Vedith was the subject of a large wagon that took forever to fall apart with no strong contenders for a counterwagon on the back of a case that was weak as fuck. That tends to be town in my experience.

I'm not defaulting to town on Nacho. I'm reading Nacho as town. There is a note there to myself, mostly, telling me that I always read Nacho as town and need to be careful not to give him a pass for no reason. And I'm not interested in discussing the why there.

[Lying Cat]

Okay - Intent to hammer. Give a role and then we can move onto Ank or pistachi0n if it's justifiable.

The extent of my claim is that someone will know it during the night phase. Claiming more doesn't mean anything. I'm claiming that at some point in the game I will be confirmed town. I've asked that you force scum to kill me, but I won't claim further.