Mini 1717 Alfred Hitchcock UPick [GAME OVER]

[Ankamius]

also... please make an effort to post in your hydra if you're in a hydra.

when i say this i'm certainly not particularly talking to a sexy, beautiful human being with the letters "e," "t," and "l" in her username.

i'm talking to everyone.

I'm going to post out of my hydra because I'm a rebel.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Thor665

[Ankamius]

RED ALERT
RED ALERT
RED ALERT

UNVOTE: Thor665
VOTE: Davsto

[Ankamius]

Meh. Maybe Sakura's I don't like that much, but I've never been one to read RVS well.

What's different about that one from the others?

[Ankamius]

Not a scum lean, they've just done one thing I'm not a fan of.

I don't understand what this is supposed to mean at all.

[Ankamius]

I actually like his responses to Sakura at the moment.

In contrast, I don't like Sakura.

ETL

Can you go into this please?

[Ankamius]

I actually like his responses to Sakura at the moment.

In contrast, I don't like Sakura.

ETL

Can you go into this please?

It's been a while since I've played with Sakura, but my general impression was that she sheeps a lot because she has no confidence in her own reads. When she did it here, I didn't say anything about it for that reason.

However, she claims to be sheeping Thor, but at the same time she is attacking davsto and coming up with reasons to scumread him, while massaging Thor's ego and buddying him. Now, I don't know about you, but the reasoning usually comes BEFORE the vote/scumread, not after.

So... it looks pretty bad and I'm honestly just waiting to get with MS because he has more experience with her and notscience.

eh, I've mostly been seeing more town than scum markers so far, although a lot of the scum markers I'd expect her to make are more long term from what I can tell.

[Ankamius]

Oh, so this is a playstyle clash.

[Ankamius]

Hi.

Is that literally the entire Vedith case?

[Ankamius]

Vedith - 4 (Concrete Angels, Thor665, Cataphant, Hecatia Lapislazuli)

Davsto - 3 (Ankamius, Thor665, Hecatia Lapislazuli)

Hecatia Lapislazuli - 3 (farside22, Cataphant, Wingback)

[Ankamius]

It usually helps people to understand what you are trying to say...

if you actually say something about what you're showing.

Uhhhh sorry, I posted that as notes to myself so I wouldn't lose them then got distracted by shiny things while actually looking through stuff.

I'm getting to this shortly.

[Ankamius]

Oh, so this is a playstyle clash.

What gave you this impression?

you think they are scum and engage with them to either strengthen or weaken that read.

Ok. I don't.

I don't vote first, and then ask questions. I ask questions and then vote.

p-edit: I don't even know what you're trying to say there.

This is speaking as someone who does both all the time.

[Ankamius]

Actually, now that I look at it again, that question is really weird and I don't understand why I was asked this in the first place.

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: Davsto
VOTE: Cataphant

Most likely the scum on the Vedith wagon. It's Thor if not him.

[Ankamius]

No, the wagon was town driven. It was scum-sheeped.

[Ankamius]

@Massive - why do you think the semantic defense angle is hogwash and suggests scum dodging? And, if you don't, why the swipe at Hecatia?

Well, for one, I don't think this is semantics, and I've already said so, or at least inferred it in 212. So if what you're asking is "is her defense hogwash", then yes, it's hogwash. I think it's easy for people to slip by and say "Oh, that's clearly not what I meant" but be unable to explain WHY something is being misunderstood or, especially in this case, deflect off to either their other hydra head or to the excuse of being a non-native English speaker.

Sakura said Davsto was a scumread. She said you are a townread. She cannot explain how her actions show this without resorting to examples from AFTER she started acting on these beliefs. That's not word selection. When pressed, the game became hard and she needed a break so her hydra partner could back her up.

This would have been easy to walk past. Sakura says "I like joining RVS wagons. I had no read on either Davsto or Thor." Done. Instead, she laid out all this BS about having scumreads and townreads based on one or two posts and backtracked when called on it. It's not semantics. It's scumantics (tm).

I think massive was going for a case on subtleties, but this looks like scum nitpicking to look like he's making a case.

[Ankamius]

This 1v1 is going nowhere fast.

[Ankamius]

Because the wagon was fishy as fuck and I have a hard time believing that it was all town.

[Ankamius]

It usually helps people to understand what you are trying to say...

if you actually say something about what you're showing.

Uhhhh sorry, I posted that as notes to myself so I wouldn't lose them then got distracted by shiny things while actually looking through stuff.

I'm getting to this shortly.

Hi. Could you do this in your next post please?

Thor and hiphydra and notsakura are town

Uhh I read half this morning and half on my way to work and I don't remember what my thoughts on ETL were

Agree with what notty(?) said about pistachio looking like eager newbtown.

Vedith looking sketchy as fuck but I'm too lazy to do the research behind the whole post timing thing


Anyway I'm here now. Engage me.

I posted my conclusion already. Cataphant > Thor665 is my current scumlist in order from the Vedith wagon.

[Ankamius]

Are the same three slots mostly drowning out the game.

Oh hey.

[Ankamius]

I'm going to throw my tablet out a window if it doesn't stop removing my punctuation.

[Ankamius]

Concrete Angels Sep 25, 05:04am Oct 02, 02:45pm 0 days 5 hours 100
Hecatia Lapislazuli Sep 24, 11:43pm Oct 02, 11:28am 0 days 8 hours 83
Thor665 Sep 25, 08:49am Oct 02, 05:34pm 0 days 2 hours 49

[Ankamius]

I've been paying pretty close attention to that since that's usually a root cause when I can't get a foothold in games and that has been a pretty consistent trend throughout the game.

[Ankamius]

massive. Concrete Angels is town and the other two are question marks.

[Ankamius]

If you can get more people to join the massive wagon, I'll switch over. Unless you're a doublevoter and the last few vote counts weren't all typos.

[Ankamius]

I don't understand what the issue is with me being willing to vote whichever scumread I have that has the most votes when a townread is the prevailing wagon.

[Ankamius]

Yeah Vedith, what Ank is doing here makes more logical sense for town, considering he's townreading us. You don't want your votes to be hanging around being useless on vanity wagons, if you scumread multiple of them, your vote is more logical to be on the one that has the most votes.

~Sakura

Okay, so explain to me what different effect keeping the vote on Cata will have to Massive?
Both having 1 additional vote that isn't Ank.

Stronger read.

[Ankamius]

Yeah Vedith, what Ank is doing here makes more logical sense for town, considering he's townreading us. You don't want your votes to be hanging around being useless on vanity wagons, if you scumread multiple of them, your vote is more logical to be on the one that has the most votes.

~Sakura

Okay, so explain to me what different effect keeping the vote on Cata will have to Massive?
Both having 1 additional vote that isn't Ank.

Stronger read.

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: Cataphant
VOTE: massive

[Ankamius]

What changed since your Cataphant vote?

I forgot it was Vedith who had been voting for Cataphant until the vote count.

[Ankamius]

I can't imagine reading the last two pages and still thinking Sakura ISN'T scum. "Oh woe is me, people are scumreading me when I'm town!"

How many games have you played with Ank?

One where he was in a hydra (Guardians of the Galaxy II) and I thought one as just Ankamius, but I can't find it.

Regarding Ankamius in general: I thought 234 was indicative of skimming and asked about it in 240, which as far as I know got ignored (it was a little snarky). His townread on Hecatia is based on "more town markers than scum" (80) and he even hedges that, but somehow it's still a strong enough read to defend her.

I could probably say the same things about Ank + Hecatia as you did about Ank + me, is that good or bad? Is it more or less indicative that Ank is scum?

A C9++ with me in the Death Stare hydra.

[Ankamius]

I think massive was going for a case on subtleties, but this looks like scum nitpicking to look like he's making a case.

Did you read the section when the actual discourse on this stuff was going on between Hecatia and Concrete Angels?

I don't remember seeing this post at all.

Yes I did.

[Ankamius]

Anyone who's scumreading Vedith needs to not be. That attack is blatantly town.

[Ankamius]

I like that Ank is willing to challenge a popular wagon, but I wish he would elaborate more on why, exactly, the wagon is bad.

Which wagon?

[Ankamius]

I found this gem while taking a quick glance at the early Vedith wagon again.

VOTE: Hecatia

Most of her posts at first are filler that makes them seem like they're trying to do something, like 78.

Like there are a lot of posts but nothing good until 2/3 into the iso.

Sheeps votes on Vedith.

Not liking this.

Hopping on an easier bandwagon with little reasoning.

Immediately attacks the first vote not on Vedith immediately after the wagon gets jumpstarted. Yuck.

[Ankamius]

@Far, glad to see you're town <3

I didn't notice pistachions callout of Sakura there initially, but you're right. That's a really strange post. Definitely not looking at pistachio very favourably right about now

oh.

[Ankamius]

I like that Ank is willing to challenge a popular wagon, but I wish he would elaborate more on why, exactly, the wagon is bad.

It was a wagon that had nothing very big behind it, yet it managed to get three sheep votes instantly and just sat there for a long time.

a) I find it hard to believe that three town instantly sheeped that case. It's not a terrible case, but far from sheepable-by-three-players-instantly good.
b) Vedith's response here looks more town than scum

That was more than enough to conclude that there's scum on the wagon somewhere, but I skimmed the game for Cataphant + Thor posts. Thor just suddenly ignores Vedith entirely while passively supporting the wagon until he moves off last page, while Cataphant just... ugh.

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: Massive
VOTE: Cataphant

I'm back to preferring this. I'll pass off my massive-scumread to my difficulty to reading him prior for the moment since I'm having trouble seeing him as scum in this game state.

[Ankamius]

Let me know how that goes I guess.

[Ankamius]

We both agree on Ankamius scum, he for his play today, and me because he's being calm about being wagoned, when usually he turns aggresive when he's town. (inb4 he turns aggresive now)

I'm calm about being wagoned because this is never going through while Cataphant is supporting it.

[Ankamius]

Look at Hiplop's case and tell me that's not blatantly wagonhopping.

[Ankamius]

Hiplop's case on me is awful partially because he's assuming that I wasn't townreading Vedith until he made a case on me (which is obviously wrong to anyone paying any attention to the game), and partially because his post looks like he's trying to force a scumread. The confidence isn't there in his reasoning; he's declaring it at the end.

[Ankamius]

That's actually null, Davsto. We have a LOT of mafia history and it would actually be weirder if she was pushing a scumreading on me rather than just pressure.

[Ankamius]

That's the thing, though. I already knew going into the game that she isn't confident in reading me outside of when I'm pressured and she knew I'm aware of it. I would've ignored it exactly the same way I am now if she had naked voted me, for example.

[Ankamius]

Massive: I'll go into specifics later if I remember, but my operating theory atm is scum in Cataphant+Davsto+This+(LyingCat+farside22+Wingback+Bulge+Massive) where nullish people are in parentheses.

[Ankamius]

This

Thor.

Fuck autocorrect.

[Ankamius]

I really dislike how pistachio is not being discussed at all. Seems like the classic second option scum that gets looked over

VOTE: pistachio

what

[Ankamius]

Can we pretty please just lynch Ank?

I'll give out sexual favors.

We could also lynch davvyboy, because for all the talk he does about how much he scumreads us he sure isn't trying to campaign our wagon or read other people.

Get better reads.

[Ankamius]

I don't see how your response debunks what he said at all.

[Ankamius]

That was notscience posting though, not Sakura.

[Ankamius]

@Ank - Well, he accused me of hypocrisy in attacking him for not pushing his wagon while pointing out that I was not pushing my wagon.

He ignored that the only wagons I suggested people needed to be pushing were 1 vote wagons - which was never a situation my vote was in.

So, at that point, where is the hypocrisy he is attacking me over?

You disagree with my defense and find me hypocritical in attacking him like I did?

The problem is that if you're not going to be pushing your wagons, you don't exactly get leeway in telling other people to start doing it. It's irrelevant what situations you're criticizing; you made a big post on Vedith way back when that wagon was a thing and practically dropped it afterwards until you moved your vote. You haven't even pushed me at all after you voted me. Both blew up really fast and instantly stalled; the fact that you're going to criticize people for just not pushing a wagon they're solo voting on while you're just passively supporting essentially the same thing sans the wagon length is ridiculous.

[Ankamius]

Wingback, I'm becoming increasingly sure that Cataphant is faking hydra dissonance.

[Ankamius]

Because that hop onto my wagon and then just moving off of it looks like two separate people going by the whims of whoever just happens to be on at the time, yet their actions throughout the rest of the thread don't show any dissonance at all.

[Ankamius]

I'm retracting my vedith townread, btw.

what

[Ankamius]

Town =/= correct.

[Ankamius]

The way he responded to Vedith offering up a case on him was to point out how townish Vedith was.
I basically never see that reaction from anyone - no one agrees with a case made on them, because either they're scum and defending or town and know it's wrong.
I see it as more likely to be scum trying to act town than town suddenly deciding the case on them is good.

You're assuming that I'm agreeing with the case. My point is that he's not scum manufacturing a case; I believe he's legitimately trying to scumhunt. There's a huge difference there.

[Ankamius]

You don't know me very well.

[Ankamius]

Can't right now since I'm at work.

It shouldn't be difficult to see how I respond to pressure since its generally the same across all my town games and it shows up in almost all of them.

[Ankamius]

Clearly you don't know me - I'm incredibly lazy

If you are refusing to pull it up yourself, let me know. Otherwise I am content to vote you and wait.

Smite Mafia (note: the SK chose me to get another shot if I ever get lynched)
Mini 1697 1 and 2 (note: thesp was conftown and this was lylo)
=15892&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]NY 184 (ISO: 17, 25/26, 35/36, just look around the last 20-30 posts before each)
White Flag (TM) (here until end of day)

I don't have any good recent scum examples, so.

[Ankamius]

Whatever, just copy that link.

[Ankamius]

I got lynched day 3 in Smite Mafia.

[Ankamius]

The point I'm trying to prove here is that I jump on cases I think are scum and ignore cases I think are town.

[Ankamius]

Oh you're looking for this specific situation?

No, I'm pretty sure I've never had a townread that has been a significant choice for being lynched on it make a town case on me.

[Ankamius]

In response to the fifth, we wanted a wagon on and early in the game. Sakura told me how he'd react as town and as scum. Hint: he was who we voted early when the first wave of stupidity happened. When he picked up traction here, he exhibited the calmness when Wagoned that sakura told me was typical of scum-him.

Okay, I'm going to nip this in the bud.

Sakura: Where exactly did this come from? I can think of two answers to this and neither are very solid evidence of anything, much less strong enough to warrant an immediate sort followed by being completely ignored ever since.

[Ankamius]

Figured.

Take a closer look at how you reached the conclusion and reassess, because you didn't reach the correct one.

[Ankamius]

Jailing HL is a really bad idea.

[Ankamius]

Nacho what are your overall reads?

[Ankamius]

Oh, before I forget:

Farside: Both of your questions were answered later on. I'll requote if you want.

[Ankamius]

The Ank case is "he doesn't get defensive as scum, and isn't defensive now, and thus is scum". This is pattern matching; it's not a great case.

It is meta.
Also yes Ank town would OMGUS the worst push on him.

~Sakura

Unless Ank is townreading everyone voting him, then... yeah

~Sakura

uhhhhhhh

UNVOTE: Massive
VOTE: Cataphant

I'm back to preferring this. I'll pass off my massive-scumread to my difficulty to reading him prior for the moment since I'm having trouble seeing him as scum in this game state.

We both agree on Ankamius scum, he for his play today, and me because he's being calm about being wagoned, when usually he turns aggresive when he's town. (inb4 he turns aggresive now)

I'm calm about being wagoned because this is never going through while Cataphant is supporting it.

Look at Hiplop's case and tell me that's not blatantly wagonhopping.

Hiplop's case on me is awful partially because he's assuming that I wasn't townreading Vedith until he made a case on me (which is obviously wrong to anyone paying any attention to the game), and partially because his post looks like he's trying to force a scumread. The confidence isn't there in his reasoning; he's declaring it at the end.

[Ankamius]

P-Edit: Ops, sorry i missed that

...how?

[Ankamius]

The places I'm currently willing to vote are massive/Cataphant/Vedith; not really willing to vote anywhere else. If there are people who have feelings about one of these in particular, tell me now and lend me your sword. Otherwise, I will choose which one to push when I return and have time to drive a wagon.

I will 100% support a Cataphant lynch.
I will support a massive lynch, but halfheartedly.

[Ankamius]

@Thor:

I think my assertion that multiple people were townreading Vedith because of his attack on Ank was due to a case of faulty memory; I'm rereading Ank right now to get a better read on the slot.

But first, question for Ankamius:

UNVOTE: Cataphant
VOTE: massive

What changed since your Cataphant vote?

What changed since your Cataphant vote?

I forgot it was Vedith who had been voting for Cataphant until the vote count.

Why was Vedith's vote being on Cataphant before significant enough to make you change your vote here?

Read all my posts on this page. I hinted pretty strongly that the reason I was voting for Cataphant because I had a stronger scumread on that slot and both had one other player voting them each; I switched over to Massive when I realized that when Vedith moved his vote to me, Cataphant suddenly didn't have anyone else voting for him.

[Ankamius]

@Ank:

eh, I've mostly been seeing more town than scum markers so far, although a lot of the scum markers I'd expect her to make are more long term from what I can tell.

Could you talk about the town and scum markers you saw for Sakura at this point in time? A major problem I have with your posting so far is that you don't really seem to have much depth in your reads. I think talking about what seems to be a read where you're taking a lot into account and thinking about a bunch of things would help a lot.

It's not something I can explain very well.

I've been paying attention to how she interacts with people and processes information as either alignment, and what I've noticed is that she seems to have a lot of trouble faking town thought processes as scum really early into the game, but eventually it starts to mold together.

Posts like these are roughly what I'm seeing as genuine from her early posting.

Spoiler:

I have a wild guess as to why, but i'll let him answer, I do have a slight townlean on Thor however i'll sheep

Vote: Davsto

~Sakura

and voting someone I thought was town

Considering he asked you why you think they are town, have you considered that maybe he doesn't think they're town?
I don't think Davsto's town, but this seems like an odd logic for thinking Davsto's scum

~Sakura

My current issue with Davsto is that he apparently thinks my sheeping Thor was something he disliked, he asked me a couple of questions and left it at that, along with some fence sitty / wishy-washy stances.

~Sakura

However, she claims to be sheeping Thor, but at the same time she is attacking davsto and coming up with reasons to scumread him, while massaging Thor's ego and buddying him. Now, I don't know about you, but the reasoning usually comes BEFORE the vote/scumread, not after.

I sheeped Thor because i wanted an RVS wagon going.
Davsto's play afterwards only has increased my suspicion on him.

I don't know about you but usually when you're voting a player means you think they are scum and engage with them to either strengthen or weaken that read.
Also yeah, we haven't played in a while, but i'm more confident nowadays.

~Sakura

you think they are scum and engage with them to either strengthen or weaken that read.

Ok. I don't.

I don't vote first, and then ask questions. I ask questions and then vote.

So basically it's a playstyle difference then.

Basically my impression is that if you were scum you wouldn't mind just going aggro on me if you have suspicions on me, but you wanting to talk with your other head makes me think you're actually wanting an opinion from someone that knows your alignment beforehand, so i think you're probably town.

~Sakura

This is secondary and wasn't relevant at all when I made #80, but I also have a secret town/scumtell for her and she has flipped the town side of the tell by the point.

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: Davsto
VOTE: Cataphant

Most likely the scum on the Vedith wagon. It's Thor if not him.

I like that you actually decided to follow up on your wagon thoughts from earlier (which backs up that you were townreading Vedith at this point), but I don't necessarily understand why you thought scum had to be on that wagon. Just because the case was bad meant that scum was going to jump all over it?

The case wasn't 'bad', but it was far from being a strong case. It always makes me paranoid when I see a case that doesn't impress me very much get sheeped that hard that fast.

The wagon was instantly sheeped by three people and effectively stalled out by the end of the page. Just from a quick skim of the next few pages after the initial wagon being formed, the only person not already on the wagon that commented at all about it was Massive, who just passively mentioned that he's interested in it... in some way. Cataphant basically ignored the wagon entirely afterwards, as did Hecatia Lapislazuli (although this is more consistent with their game before that point, so I only saw it as lightly scummy). After Concrete Angels bails on the wagon, Thor goes really passive about Vedith for a long time while still supporting the wagon up until he voted for me.

Concrete Angels Read: ETL found a single discrepancy and went into tunnel mode until snapped out of it by Metal Sonic. This is something I have done as town and the way it happened looks like a really awkward tactic for scum, so that's an easy townread.
Thor665 Read: His first post content-wise after initially sheeping looked a lot like an attempt to just brute force the wagon through, but then after that I got less of an impression that he wanted to actually push it through.
Cataphant Read: Sheeps and... that's it. Their response to me voting them for scum-sheeping is nothing but a kneejerk discredit attempt.
Hecatia Lapislazuli: Read above, although now that I look closer, that doesn't actually fit since Sakura posted in two bursts; the first had the initial vote, and the second had an indication that she was still wanting to at least pressure the slot.

[Ankamius]

It always makes me paranoid when I see a case that doesn't impress me very much get sheeped that hard that fast.

Didn't it impress you of his townishness though?
Why wouldn't that get sheep?

Go read the context and try again.

[Ankamius]

What I'm getting at is that your question makes no sense because I'm talking about the Vedith wagon, not my own.

[Ankamius]

Oh, now I understand what you mean.

Where did you get the impression that I was townreading Concrete Angels specifically for the case?

[Ankamius]

I did not - I thought you were talking about the case Vedith made on you.

So I was right the first time.

How is your original question relevant then?

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Pistachi0n

Sorry, Wingback, I will not support a Lying Cat lynch today.

[Ankamius]

Just based on setup stuff, we should lynch Lying Cat earliest on day three. If we can't conclusively prove that he's town by that time, then I will fully support lynching Lying Cat.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Pistachi0n

Sorry, Wingback, I will not support a Lying Cat lynch today.

You haven't said anything about either Lying Cat or Pistachi0n recently. What tipped the scales?

The type of role he's claiming is consistent with every other role that has been claimed so far. On top of this, I find it really hard to believe that scum have two roles solely to counter one town role (multiple is technically possible, but not likely), then another one that doesn't counter anything.

Worst case scenario, he's lying, but by the time he reaches day three, he has to have confirmed himself to his two scumpartners or has to jump through hoops to keep the deception going.

I don't see a reason not to leash him right now.

[Ankamius]

Lying Cat haven't locked themselves into any sort of role. They made a vague claim that they are confirmable. I don't understand why you just decided to give them two more days to do that without asking for any further information and are willing to lynch another player that you've said nothing about for many pages. It is not even that you are lynching a different scumread, you are lynching someone you literally have given no opinions on over someone else who you've also given no opinions on because they said they could confirm themselves under a very specific set of circumstances?

The wagons I have a choice on are two nullreads (Lying Cat/pistachi0n) and a townread (Hecatia Lapislazuli). I'm obviously not going to jumpstart the Hecatia wagon, so all I have to go on is someone I have no read on whatsoever and someone who I have no read on whatsoever, but I can pseudo-read by analyzing the setup.

The information he has given us so far gives two possibilities in my head. 1) He's town; his role is pitiful and the fact that he's a fruit vendor on top of it is its saving grace (or he's a fruit vendor with a drawback that's anti-town to reveal). 2) He's scum; he has a strong role with the drawback that his target knows Lying Cat targeted them, so he still has to be able to make his info look town.

It's entirely possible to be able to judge which of the two is the case once we have more information on the board.

I don't follow where you got this D3 idea from. They never said they can confirm themselves by D3. They said that if one SPECIFIC scum role flips, they would be able to confirm themselves. That doesn't do anything for me since that role may never flip and if we get to LYLO, Lying Cat can still plausibly argue that because that role hasn't flipped yet, they can't confirm themselves as town. That won't make them confirmed scum at this point so I see this claim as completely safe and without consequences.

I specifically gave him two night phases so that he can confirm what he's saying he can confirm. It gives us more time to get scumflips, yet isn't too late to still lynch him just in case. He can be entirely leashed to only target who town wants him to target.

He could "confirm" his role whatever it is by visiting people other than his two partners. Role confirmation isn't confirmation of his alignment and I thought you were experienced enough to know this as well.

Where did you get the impression that I thought confirming his role would confirm his alignment?

[Ankamius]

I mean it, if Lying cat isn't 100% confirmable tomorrow, we lynch his ass.

X

That depends way too much on what happens tonight to tell for sure.

[Ankamius]

If this is a townflip, I'm going to be really upset.

[Ankamius]

If this is a townflip, I'm going to be really upset.

You just effectively wiped out my town read on you with this post.

Don't care. The way the wagon went through at the end was THAT bad.

[Ankamius]

Yes it does. It was literally pushed through right when the wagon started getting resistance and after I had started attempting to dismantle the wagon to get more information from his role. I'm suspicious that it was part of the reason it got rushed through so fast.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Cataphant

[Ankamius]

I don't know if Anka recalls us playing scum together

Wait, what? Were you on an alt?

[Ankamius]

I remember which one now. Never mind.

[Ankamius]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=59850

[Ankamius]

How so?

[Ankamius]

...So?

I don't qualify direct actions as good meta. Make a correlation between why I did it there and what I'm doing here, then we'll talk about it.

[Ankamius]

As someone who analysed it and came out with no idea as to why I wasn't killed, I disagree.

This is a hint from my own experience: If the kill doesn't make sense with your view of the game state, then your view of the game state is wrong.

[Ankamius]

I'll try to get to this game tomorrow.

[Ankamius]

Okay, step one: can someone quote for me their points on Pistachi0n?

[Ankamius]

mine

pff

[Ankamius]

Okay, step one: can someone quote for me their points on Pistachi0n?

Besides not really scum hunting. Asking pointless questions and just actively lurking.

No I'm thinking that's all I got.

thx~

[Ankamius]

VOTE: pistachio

Will look through Wingback's ISO tomorrow and see if maybe he caught onto something which resulted in his death. He was doing a lot but I reckon there's a good chance there are other motives behind his death.

...what?

[Ankamius]

So out of my scum reads of Cataphant, Pistachio and Ank two are voting for the others.

Yeah I can see a bussing technique going on here.

Why anka?

Because of his day 1. I still don't like the way he just tried to buddy around and agree any where. Most people seem to have ignored that part though.

You're tunneling.

Reassess.

[Ankamius]

Scratch 1354.

[Ankamius]

DICKS DICKS DICKS DICKS SUCKS

Nice

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Now say something

useful

, because I'm not just gonna let you get away with fluff.

look at this guy

[Ankamius]

He's been a strong voice so had enough power to remain mostly unscathed, but upon reflection (especially with wingback flipping town) shows that a lot of what he was saying was BS.

How does Wingback flipping town make what I say look more like BS than it already did or didn't?
That doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

Why did you object to that instead of him thinking what you're saying is BS in general?

[Ankamius]

it's already obvious there is bussing going on here somewhere. if pist is scum so is cat.

What about the gamestate is giving you this impression?

[Ankamius]

People who are townreading Nacho: why?

Can you quote your points on Nacho being scum?

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Davsto

[Ankamius]

Sakura where's your head at right now?

[Ankamius]

alright well

Vedith + Hecatia are town. I'm okay with throwing massive into the pile for the moment. I want to throw ETL in there but I don't have enough experience with her to overthrow her reputation that I'm aware of to be comfortable with that.

1-2 minimum scum in Cataphant + Davsto + Thor665

The rest are in who the fuck knows land.

[Ankamius]

I'm getting nervous about ETL.
Ever since he's been on his own I see none of the push and drive I saw from day 1.
I wonder if his hydra buddy was posting more from his hydra partner

Seconding this. I've not been liking ETL's posting as much as D1, and the Wingback kill seems to be a very odd choice for any reason apart from for his slight at-the-time Concrete Angels suspicion.

wat

I'm lost as to how a Wingback kill is odd.

[Ankamius]

I'll get to this. Vedith and Farside are my two focuses when I do.

[Ankamius]

I still need to reread some stuff.

I will say here that I second ETL's questions towards Nacho, but it's likely I won't support his lynch today regardless.

[Ankamius]

Nacho, why are you assuming watcher? I was leaning tracker being in the setup.

[Ankamius]

We're clearly thinking about the setup in a vastly different way. I'm thinking the ninjas are there to get a tracker to townhunt instead of scumhunt.

[Ankamius]

1) If a tracker targets a ninja making a kill, he gets "player goes nowhere".

2)

The Mafia will have a player with the Ninja modifier and one with a Back-up Ninja modifier. These only apply to the factional kill.

So if a player targets someone who wasn't the kill, they could still be the ninja.

And? I said it was to encourage the tracker to townhunt, not scumhunt.

[Ankamius]

tbh I'm lost as to why I'm being called obvtown by so many, too.

[Ankamius]

And? I said it was to encourage the tracker to townhunt, not scumhunt.

What do you mean?

I'm saying the design was likely to 'catch' town roles, not scum roles.

[Ankamius]

FTR Davsto hasn't claimed N2 action yet.

[Ankamius]

Ok. I missed it then.

[Ankamius]

Is the neighborhood open at all times or only at night?

[Ankamius]

I have to go back to work soon, but I'll get to making a list of people I'd be okay with lynching now thast this new info on the table.

I imagine the list will be pretty short, and even then, Davsto will probably be the only reasonable one.

[Ankamius]

Can you point me to his claim?

I'm a modified backup; I can use it before a lynch and I will backup the lynched player before they die. My information on hip-hop is not related to this; I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill, but hiplop and massive are still town regardless.

Add that he didn't go anywhere and he knows that hippy is town because of his role.

Farside, are you scum?

[Ankamius]

Can you point me to his claim?

I'm a modified backup; I can use it before a lynch and I will backup the lynched player before they die. My information on hip-hop is not related to this; I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill, but hiplop and massive are still town regardless.

Add that he didn't go anywhere and he knows that hippy is town because of his role.

Farside, are you scum?

No.

Is there really a point to the question or are you going to explain why I'm wrong or what I"m missing with what you quote.

Your response to Nacho doesn't make sense and I'm getting scum-push vibes from the way you're going about it.

[Ankamius]

I support no lynch.

[Ankamius]

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

[Ankamius]

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

He was scum reading hippy day 2.

He said he knew hippy was town due to his role.
He said he went nowhere.

Dear lord do I need to draw a map here?

Did you forget the post where he said he said that it was his role to absorb a nightkill?

[Ankamius]

I don't understand your case. Nacho said his Hiplop read had nothing to do with his role.

He was scum reading hippy day 2.

He said he knew hippy was town due to his role.
He said he went nowhere.

Dear lord do I need to draw a map here?

Did you forget the post where he said he said that it was his role to absorb a nightkill?

uhhhh let me rephrase this so that it makes any sense whatsoever.

Did you forget the post where he said that the information was because of his role so that he could absorb a nightkill?

[Ankamius]

My information on hip-hop is not related to this

I said that it was mine in order to absorb a nightkill

[Ankamius]

No.

Nacho stated at the beginning of day three that he got info that hiplop is town in order to take the N3 nightkill. He later stated that he wasn't the cause of the info after being pressured to.

PEdit: @Farside.

[Ankamius]

If I was on a tablet, I'd be raging right now at all these post previews.

[Ankamius]

Vote: No Lynch

[Ankamius]

Have fun with those nightmares, anti.

[Ankamius]

I wouldn't object to a farside lynch anymore.

[Ankamius]

Nacho, I think it's time to go into why Hiplop is confirmed town to you.

[Ankamius]

tbh we should probably just massclaim today.

[Ankamius]

I am Roger O. Thornhill.

I am also the reason the ninjas exist in the game. If there aren't any counterclaims to this, I'd like to claim my actual role last, please.

[Ankamius]

oops

Hiplop next, please.

[Ankamius]

Davsto claims to have jailed Nacho last night.

[Ankamius]

You go ahead and do that. Unless you're trying to counterclaim 1930, it's meaningless regardless.

[Ankamius]

I'm saying that my role is either Tracker or Watcher.

As for whether I was roleblocked night three or not, I don't know.

[Ankamius]

I can't get them at the moment since I sent them via sitechat and Antihero isn't online in sitechat at the moment. If anyone knows how to bring it up anyway, I'll go get them.

[Ankamius]

Alright.

I'm a delayed watcher. I submit an action one night and get a result on the night afterwards. I asked Antihero shortly after Davsto claimed when I would be told I was roleblocked, and he told me it would be the same time that I'd get a result.

I'll let everyone else decide which of us should claim results first.

[Ankamius]

I'm not making judgments until all the info is out on the table.

My info is interesting enough that I'd like us two to go last, though.

[Ankamius]

I'm not going to tolerate this, massive. You're the person I want to claim before I give my results because you're the only person I have information on that I have no information on yet.

[Ankamius]

Hmm that is not what I was expecting from Ank. Not saying Roger Thornhill isn't a perfectly acceptable role (probably one of the most recognizable characters) but I was expecting a more obtuse role. Who else did you submit, Ank?

Roger Thornhill
Eve Gill
Stephen Fisher

[Ankamius]

I'm LB Jeffries from Rear Window. My ability should be fairly obvious. I can tell you that Ank and I both visited Nacho N2 -- that's what he's referring to here:

You're the person I want to claim before I give my results because you're the only person I have information on that I have no information on yet.

I guess I'll withhold anything else because it's looking like hiplop is the odd man out here.

what?

[Ankamius]

That what was about his role, not his result, by the way.

[Ankamius]

Massive, how many people (including you) visited Nacho night 2?

[Ankamius]

That's correct, yes.

[Ankamius]

No, I didn't. I'll out my results once Massive answers my question.

PEdit: @Farside asking me if I finished claim.

[Ankamius]

I'm really liking a Hiplop + Massive team right now.

[Ankamius]

Massive outed the information I have on him, Nacho.

I saw him target you on night TWO.

[Ankamius]

I'm going to wait for now to go into this more, but that doesn't disprove anything about why I'm currently scumreading them as a team.

[Ankamius]

If I was roleblocked on night two, I'd get a no result on night three.

[Ankamius]

You think that there were 2 ninjas put in the game to counter a delayed watcher?

If your information on massive N1 is that he targeted me, he's also confirmed town.

Your information on him is less significant than this piece of reasoning.

I think what you said before was right; that the setup was designed for scum to have to juggle risk and reward for which role to be immune to.

[Ankamius]

I'll go into my theory on Hiplop+Massive later.

[Ankamius]

I'd like to point out as well that I'm not going to claim my results until both Massive and Hiplop has for reasons I will outline when the time comes.

[Ankamius]

If your reasoning for linking us together is mostly the engagement we had yesterday, then you can do a lot better than that.

[Ankamius]

If your reasoning for linking us together is mostly the engagement we had yesterday, then you can do a lot better than that.

nope
You asked him a question about his read and just moved on and I notice he isn't really pushing you to explain anything.

I don't waste words.

[Ankamius]

sigh

I was looking for a sign that would indicate that both slots are telling the truth, but none of the results actually prove it.

third night roleblocked when I went on davesto

wow

[Ankamius]

Night 1: EspeciallyTheLies was targeted by Wingback
Night 2: Nachomamma8 was targeted by Massive, Davsto, and Hecatia Lapislazuli.

[Ankamius]

It should immediately be obvious why I was so adamant about going last; I knew exactly what all of the dead slots did the night they died.

My theory for what's going on with the game right now is that Massive is a Ninja and Hiplop is a scum tracker. Here's my evidence for this:

1. All of their results are safe. The only result any of us got that isn't immediately public knowledge to them is me targeted Nacho on night two. This works if Hiplop tracked me on night two.
2. Hiplop is trying to conftown Massive for not being tracked anywhere. This works if he ninja-killed Wingback night one to give Hecatia their negative result.
3. I can easily see the ninja-modifier being made public to make a Watcher+Tracker combo look more likely to be town.
4. I've been really skeeved out by the way both slots went about their claims, mainly Hiplop's.

[Ankamius]

ftr my half of the engagement with Nacho about the watcher was how I viewed the game at the beginning. After Lying Cat claimed, my engagement with Wingback gave me the idea that I should be searching for scum supporting roles (role cop, roleblocker, etc.) instead. That's what I was searching for both nights.

[Ankamius]

And how exactly is massive cleared?

[Ankamius]

Davsto. He was one of my biggest wildcards and no one else stood out as a good target.

[Ankamius]

ftr if I'm wrong about a Hiplop+Massive team, farside's 100% scum.

[Ankamius]

There's no way Ank is scum unless you're saying he's a Mafia Watcher. He went to Nacho N2 and Nacho didn't die, and he has the other visitors to Nacho N2 correct, which he could guess at but not be 100% confident like he is if he were say a Rolecop or something. No, Ank is practically the ONLY confirmed townie in my book.

Tell me how watching dav makes any sense at all with ETL's claim and actions.

Vote: anka

Or hell even watching heca for fuck sake.
Of course I'm talking to the player that targeted Nacho night 1 for some reason.

Are we playing the same game right now? Nothing that you just said in either of these posts makes any sense.

[Ankamius]

Who the hell are you even talking about?

HECA FUCKING CLAIMED DAY 1

*growls*

Why the fuck would you watch a player like nacho from the fucking start?
This isn't fucking rocket science.

Pay attention.

Massive claimed to start watching on night two.

[Ankamius]

Because you've been mixing up a lot of details and your attack on Massive looks like you're basing it off him starting to watch Nacho night one instead of night two. The post I quoted even indicates that.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: farside22

[Ankamius]

I'm voting you because 2075 is not a town post.

[Ankamius]

Answer me this farside.

In

what

universe
In a setup where kills can't reliably be tracked
In a situation where the only night actions we know of are targeting the same person

Why would it be scummy to watch the target of both players when any other option would almost certainly result in nothing?

[Ankamius]

Now that I'm looking back onto page 83, I'm getting pings from Nacho's posts as well.

[Ankamius]

Farside is mixing up details but that's not scummy.

Vedith is scum, let's lynch.

It's not inherently scummy, but it gets really hard to believe that she is town when she keeps doing it multiple times, bases reads on completely incorrect info, then doesn't try to reassess any time anyone tells her that she's wrong.

Farside is not a VI. She's also not ignorant on how the game works. She's either sdcum doing this on purpose or town who is paying no attention to the game, which isn't believable based on her posts today.

[Ankamius]

Answer me this farside.

In

what

universe
In a setup where kills can't reliably be tracked
In a situation where the only night actions we know of are targeting the same person

Why would it be scummy to watch the target of both players when any other option would almost certainly result in nothing?

How do you know it would be nothing?
Why do you think kills can't be tracked?

Did o miss a memo somewhere?

...

There's no way you're actually thinking this. You're scum.

[Ankamius]

Who else is townreading her for it? I was nullreading it for the most part until recently.

[Ankamius]

It's really disturbing when the only slot I'm not scumreading for recent posts is the one we're all suddenly trying to kill.

[Ankamius]

Her intent as scum would be to get townread for playing stupid, which I don't think is the case.

Why is this the only thing you can think of for why she would do this?

[Ankamius]

What do you think of the late Ascetic counterclaim?

It also might mean that your scumdar is broken, you know.

It means there's no one in this game still alive that I can point to and be confident they're town.

That's very disturbing when we hit a point in the game where setup information starts to take a much bigger role in the game.

[Ankamius]

I'm also concerned by Anka's acceptance of nacho's claim day 2.

Quote this.

[Ankamius]

I'm reconsidering my Nacho read to be fair though, he's day 4 is much better and more thoughtful then most of the other days and I'm getting the impression he is trying to figure the players out in the game.

I'm getting the opposite impression. I never had a significant scumread on that slot, but it's starting to get there today. I'm getting that same feeling I got last time I played against Nacho's scumgame, and I was foolish enough to ignore it last time.

[Ankamius]

Her intent as scum would be to get townread for playing stupid, which I don't think is the case.

Why is this the only thing you can think of for why she would do this?

Why else would she do that as scum?

Just glancing at context, day three she thinks the scumteam is suddenly in a lot of trouble, then day four she realizes there's a lot of outs and town isn't unified anymore and just wants to keep town from getting organized again.

[Ankamius]

It means there's no one in this game still alive that I can point to and be confident they're town.

And what are you doing in order to change that?

Posts like this are why I'm really nervous about you right now.

[Ankamius]

Her intent as scum would be to get townread for playing stupid, which I don't think is the case.

Why is this the only thing you can think of for why she would do this?

Why else would she do that as scum?

Just glancing at context, day three she thinks the scumteam is suddenly in a lot of trouble, then day four she realizes there's a lot of outs and town isn't unified anymore and just wants to keep town from getting organized again.

FTR this makes a lot more sense if Hiplop is scum.

[Ankamius]

The problem with your case is that you assume 1585 is a scum list.

Your case on Nacho still makes no fucking sense. Your case was literally that he claimed hiplop was confirmed town because of his role then claimed that he went nowhere when he had already claimed he wasn't willing to go into it so he could be a night kill target. I pointed this out to you multiple times and you're still completely ignoring why your case is awful.

[Ankamius]

Davsto is confirmed not scum with massive or me, since both of us saw him target you.

[Ankamius]

Back to this in a bit. Game is still difficult to effectively parse.

[Ankamius]

My main problem at this point is that my gut is screaming at me that I'm on to something with farside, but my connection with her to hiplop doesn't feel convincing to me.

I can't just look at the way she handled today and call it town.

[Ankamius]

Maybe I need to look at early game again.

[Ankamius]

Prod received.

[Ankamius]

Nacho did anything change about your thoughts on Massive since your post about reads to me?

[Ankamius]

Farside: I already addressed 2160.

You assumed that when I said that I would focus on you and him when I started catching up again, that meant I was scumreading you. That assumption is false.

[Ankamius]

The vote that I put on you several pages after the posts you were referencing in 2160 and specifically stated it was for the post directly preceding it?

[Ankamius]

Yeah, my scumread on Vedith never existed. That's what I'm saying.

[Ankamius]

Keep tunnel visioning garbage, please.

[Ankamius]

My town read on Vedith was getting very stale at that point and I wanted to see if I was too hasty in townreading him so easily beforehand.

I don't remember why I had Farside there as well since other stuff on her developed since then.

[Ankamius]

I'll rephrase:

That post was me wanting to realign with the game and figuring out those two slots were what I felt would give me the best shot of starting to get a grasp on it again.

[Ankamius]

I've stated multiple times that it was a false assumption.

[Ankamius]

Keep tunnel visioning garbage, please.

I'm sorry I can't hear your hypocritical comment.

You're scumreading my read on Vedith even though I was heavily townreading him day one and he steadily moved to null. I stated something like 3-4 times now that me wanting to look into him doesn't equal a scumread. You have yet to acknowledge this.

You're scumreading me for basically arguing with you about Nacho's claim about hiplop. I never gave any indication whatsoever that I townread him for that gambit. My claim should make it blindingly clear why I didn't support a lynch on him day three. It should be pretty clear that I was trying to get you to see why your logic made no sense (because lo and behold... it made no sense), but you death tunneled it and are now trying to use it as ammo against me.

So yes, I'm going to tell you that you're tunneling garbage because you're straight up tunneling garbage. In both instances, I immediately noticed where your logic went wrong and tried to get you to see them, but you're blindly insisting that you're right even though you're clearly not.

[Ankamius]

yes! why?

I wonder why I make big post sometimes.

Also while my brain is awake at 2:30am I asked myself why didn't anka target heca night 1?
He said he targetted ETL and this was before the ninja info was out and 2 other players claimed a PR that day, along with a soft PR.

ftr my half of the engagement with Nacho about the watcher was how I viewed the game at the beginning. After Lying Cat claimed, my engagement with Wingback gave me the idea that I should be searching for scum supporting roles (role cop, roleblocker, etc.) instead. That's what I was searching for both nights.

[Ankamius]

sigh

VOTE: Vedith

[Ankamius]

Massive is conftown and I know for a fact that either Davsto or I are conftown as well because I watched Nacho last night.