Micro 533: Restricted Great Idea Mafia (Game over)

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Kop for defeating me in delicious mafia

[Fro99er]

Wolfie, I know you can sheep me for that!

[Fro99er]

And gray too!

[Fro99er]

I wouldn't pay attention to an unnecessary claim from NM in any game personally.

Do you have experience with him doing that another time?

[Fro99er]

Kop - I'm not scum this time! Why are you voting wolfie?

Wolfie - I'm not sure how you were able to so quickly conclude this is Kop's scum game. I'm not pinged by anything of his yet. Why do you say this reminds you of his scum game?

[Fro99er]

VOTE: frog

For being scum in delicious maf

Awww...why didn't you sheep me

[Fro99er]

Post 31 is bad, since it was relatively clear to me what Silver's posts meant, and 33 is a useless question, but 40 was meant to create discussion and switching vote in 35 reads like someone flailing around trying to make activity happen. It's activity for the sake of activity rather than directed questioning, but I think scum would have an easier time lurking than making 8 or 9 posts on one page. He explains his motives in 41 and I thought it was genuine. Although posts like 46 are pretty worthless.

Then with all that said, what is your read on him? You say "scum would have an easier time lurking" and he's "genuine", but you also pick out his "worthless" and "bad" posts, say he's "flailing", and say it's "activity for the sake of activity". I'm not sure you are doing anything more than stating some stuff and appearing to waffle on Kop. You've at very best made it wholly unclear where you stand on this, like you don't want to make any waves.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Fro99er]

But this just ignores it entirely and disregards it as noise in the background. I think there is some thing to be learnt behind not_mafia's claim, especially how he plays it off as he didn't claim at all. My theory is he is trying to get attention to himself, for what reason I am unsure.

Theory right or wrong, this is a pretty town post.

[Fro99er]

So I'm assuming that everybody makes a random vote and goes into lurking.

Lets start.

VOTE: Soren

As mentioned, the vote looks random. Is it random or was there a reason behind this?

[Fro99er]

So I'm assuming that everybody makes a random vote and goes into lurking.

Lets start.

VOTE: Soren

As mentioned, the vote looks random. Is it random or was there a reason behind this?

I should say, random, or is this an actual scum read?

[Fro99er]

GL, the thing I don't like, is that most things people do can be done by both town and scum. What the whole point of this game is to figure out their motivations for such actions, to sort their alignment. I'm fine if you read it as null, and you're explanation in 64 is fine enough, but at some point you're going to need to move beyond "this is a town thing but something scum can do" because then you'll just spin your wheels. You need to look for the

reason

they are doing that to decipher their motivation behind it.

If you had to make a gut read on Kop (either town or scum, no null), what would you say?

[Fro99er]

Has nothing to do with my read on Kop and everything to do with my read on you.

I actually like your line of questioning though.

UNVOTE:

[Fro99er]

But this just ignores it entirely and disregards it as noise in the background. I think there is some thing to be learnt behind not_mafia's claim, especially how he plays it off as he didn't claim at all. My theory is he is trying to get attention to himself, for what reason I am unsure.

Theory right or wrong, this is a pretty town post.

How is this a town post?

I guess it was a gut feel at the time, because wanting to learn something from it feels like town trying to figure the game out. But given its great idea mafia, it could be scum role fishing.

Sleeping on it, I'm less concinced it's town, especially given he proposes a theory then doesn't follow up on it.

There's some very simple answers why NM wants attention, and some more complex ones as well. But he doesn't even go proposing/speculating what they might be, so that is petty meh.

[Fro99er]

And now I see Soren did follow up and propose something he is keeping hidden for pro-town reasons in 82. I think the same thing I came up with. That makes me feel better about Soren.

[Fro99er]

I would be extremely surprised if a 9 player game was multiball. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

I have

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62222

[Fro99er]

Like why would you disregard the possibility of multiball when the mod listed three factions in the intro posts and the setup of restricted great idea mafia uses the mafia/alien deck?

[Fro99er]

And then ASP went at length to explain it could be multiball and Wolfie doesn't comment on that?

[Fro99er]

So that basically says there could be a

possibility

of being multi ball, but to be honest, I'd rather not speculate on that right this minute, we can leave that for day two once we have actions in, night kills to prove that theory before we can start speculating on that.

Talking about it now, doesn't offer anything and we may end up implicating people for the sake of guess work on setup.

Uuugggh the quoted above by Kop sounds way too much like this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7141971

VOTE: Kop

[Fro99er]

Because I have never seen multiball in a 9 player game, exactly like I said. I have never played this set up before.:

Well I just linked to a FOUR faction multiball game with 9 players.

[Fro99er]

Also Fro99er could you address my question to you in 73?

Making a note to answer this when off phone because I'll need to multi quote which sucks ass on mobile.

[Fro99er]

Like why would you disregard the possibility of multiball when the mod listed three factions in the intro posts and the setup of restricted great idea mafia uses the mafia/alien deck?

Oh, I missed this.
So what are we assuming here? 1 faction has a kill possibly a solo player with another faction of 2 without a kill?

No, the only thing we can assum is at least one scum faction has 2 or more members. There is no guarantee there are two scum factions though.

So 5-4 is a possibility or 5-3-1 or 5-2-2 or 6-3 or 6-2-1 or 7-2. As long as at least one scum faction has two or more members as stated in the rules.

[Fro99er]

Fun fact: The first randomisation of the setup generated five aliens and two mafia. Those pesky restrictions!

Like, do people not read the mod posts?

[Fro99er]

I feel like Kop's vote on not_mafia is going after an easy target.

100% this

[Fro99er]

Kop looks like frustrated town to me. I'm really starting to dislike all the defense of NM this game.

Don't like kop buckling to the slightlest bit of pressure, looks like he just wants to go with the flow/least contraversial target at any given juncture

I'm not so sure.

I can see both perspectives but speaking from personal experience, I actually think it's more towny than scummy because that's how I react. I'll often buckle under pressure, and my reads will be all over the place as town. As scum, I drive my mislynch through (see Ducky in BEES or goodmorning in refraction, although I did think GM was scum, I knew I wasn't lynching my faction in that which is all I cared about).

UNVOTE:

VOTE: vedith

Vote parking an RVS and not scumhunting, then being called out for it and being like "oh wait, I will scumhunt soon!" (paraphrasing).

ASP also pings me for one particular thing I don't want to divulge at this second to see how it plays out, but I don't think vedith and ASP are scum together for their interaction in 92, and ASP has at least pushed GL whereas vedith hasn't at all.

[Fro99er]

@Fro99er - that was a quick unvote. Did you vote me to generate pressure or because I was your current top scumread? I don't think your fast vote/unvote is necessarily indicative of alignment (and I'll probably meta you on it later) but I'd like to know your playstyle so I can read your actions better.

I voted you in 59, my explanation was in 58, and it was for your post 51. It was for your contradictory statements about Kop. It read as really hedgy and like you didn't want to make any waves by producing a false scum read so soon. So yes, my vote was for an initial early scum read on you.

I quickly unvoted because your line of questioning in 66 gave me town feels. It was trying to figure out why I wanted a gut read from you about Kop. The "why is it so important to you" is a good question which sounds like you are trying to use it to deduce alignment indicative reasons.

[Fro99er]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: A Simple Plan

[Fro99er]

What changed?

It should be obvious.

[Fro99er]

What changed?

It should be obvious.

I'm pretty slow... Give me a hand.

WellI was trying not to be anti-town but since you keep using this bullshit as a reason to scum read me I think you might actually be scum trying to push me to say this so you can call me out for being anti-town. So here it is...

I thought you were scummy for what you said below.

Reason: too much speculating about setups than actual scum hunting.

Yeah I can't argue with that so far.
I'll be scum hunting though don't you worry.

But then you said this

I think that you mis understood my comment.
But that's neither here nor there.

Which really sounded like a soft claim of either a vig or investigative. So the way you would "eventually" hint scum was via your softer power.

I picked up on that and decided that probably made you town.", hence the unvote and switch to ASP

[Fro99er]

EBWOP: "eventually hunt scum"

[Fro99er]

EBWOP2: "via your softed power"

Fucking phone

[Fro99er]

Either way, I don't out Vedith's soft then somehow I'm scum for not explaining or I do out Vedith's soft then I'm scum for outing a PR.

Sigh.

I hate that ASP sheep and I hate Vedith sifting then accusations no me as scum for not outing her soft.

Again, Vedith and ASP aren't likely same faction for 92, but I guess one could be mafia and one alien. I am not feeling good about either of them right now.

[Fro99er]

I hate that ASP sheep and I hate Vedith softing then accusing me as possible scum for not outing her soft.

EBWOP

I hate phone posting

[Fro99er]

Frogger, I didn't say scum, I just said not looking good to me.

I don't understand the difference. Not looking good town? Doesn't make sense. Now you're being nit-picky. Why?

Why have you got so defensive over me questioning an unexplained vote swap (explained now, yes). But thanks for clarifying.

I got defensive because I was going a level deeper and thinking you were scum trying to get me to "out" your soft PR hint so that you could push me for being anti-town and outing PR roles. So I wanted to pre-emptively call you out as possibly trying to do that. It was frustrating being pushed into outing a potential PR soft when you didn't want to, but you were going to keep harping on it and scum reading me for it (or say I wasn't looking good) until I did answer. I felt like I was in a no-win situation there. Either I play pro-town and hide the soft and get scum read for it, or I play anti-town and out the soft and get scum read for it. That's how it felt to me.

What's your view on Gray not giving any details or answering the questions?

The fact that I haevn't noticed gray at all has me concerned. I've only played with town gray, and he was super involved both times.

I would consider voting for Gray after my catchup and ISO diving him.

[Fro99er]

Whoops sorry, ASP's post doean't bother me, scum is more likely to dress things up than just declare they're sheeping

Disagree. I actually usually see scum blatantly sheep and call it out as "baaaaaahhhhh" (or other such stuff) as WIFOM to make it known they are aware they are openly sheeping so they must be town.

[Fro99er]

@Frogger - I think that you are the one being nit picky. Not looking good can easily be a null/scum lean. It can also be suspicious. You were suspicious for the vote change, I didn't understand it at the time and your response didn't make me understand it more.

No, I explained my vote change and my reason is very clear. Your inability to understand instead of asking for clarity as town would normally do just goes to show its you confbiasing at best, or scum pushing me at worst. Not willing to ask for clarification On something you don't understand sounds like any answer I gave was always going to be unacceptable to you, because you're not even trying to understand it.

Also, have you bothered to meta dive me? Because if you did, you'd find out my vote switching is normal.

[Fro99er]

[quote="In post 177, Kop]If I had to lynch, it would be in this order 1) Vedit 2)Fox 3) NM[/quote]
ASP, Vedith, Gray would be mine

[Fro99er]

Of course I didn't explain my switch originally. I didn't want to.

That's the whole fucking point. Explaining it would have been anti town.

I'm done arguing this. It's clear you are confbiasing at best.

[Fro99er]

You are the one bro bring it up

[Fro99er]

Frogger and NM are null right now.
I'm not liking frogger but the dispute with Vedith seems genuine. And Vedith is my biggest scum read right now.

explain why you aren't "liking" me

[Fro99er]

Also explain how I seem "genuine" ... that feels like such a cop out read for "I don't know how to make a case on Frogger so if I say he's fenuine I won't have to make a case on him"

[Fro99er]

Intent to vote/hammer gray.

Not sure if L-1 or L-2

I will wait for gray to answer my questions before voting.

Town!gray is so much more active, but also so much more combative. He seems passive and less reckless here.

[Fro99er]

Last game you threw votes around, and what you are doing this game looks similar.

Where?

[Fro99er]

You give an excuse for sporadic voting by saying you do it as town. I don't see that style of voting as town. And again, that was your exact style as scum in my last game with you.

You mean Delicious? I made like 4 or 5 votes the whole game. Ozgin, GM, Wake, Kop and maybe one other?

Did you go look up refraction? I literally voted the whole playerlist except my Mason buddy.

[Fro99er]

Every other vote or unvote you gave an explanation.

Your ASP vote is an example.

No I meant where did I do that in a prior scum game?

Remember nightless flipless? I voted the whole playerlist except Mainez

[Fro99er]

Now you are willing to take a vote off of ASP and change your vote once again, for nothing more than OMGUS.

Nothing more than OMGUS?

I call bullshit. I stated a case on you already BEFORE you even commented on me. Liar

[Fro99er]

The fact that I haevn't noticed gray at all has me concerned. I've only played with town gray, and he was super involved both times.

[Fro99er]

[quote="In post 177, Kop]If I had to lynch, it would be in this order 1) Vedit 2)Fox 3) NM

ASP, Vedith, Gray would be mine[/quote]

[Fro99er]

Both BEFORE your post 199

[Fro99er]

ASP, Vedith, Gray would be mine

Quotes got fucked up. Here's what I said

[Fro99er]

I called you out for confusing the town in that game too. No one seemed to care then.

Exactly. Can't busing town is my town meta! I throw votes recklessly around as town. As scum I make concrete cases (see again my case on GM/Kop in delicious and my case on Ducky in BEES)

[Fro99er]

Can't busing = Confusing

Stupid phone autocorrect

[Fro99er]

Frogg I didn't post alot D1 in our last game. It's why I was lynched.

Your assessment is way off.

Dude. Maybe I misread, but you and TSO went back and forth.

[Fro99er]

No, I didn't misread. 147 posts you had D1

[Fro99er]

He said was I scum for low activity. I argued that wasn't alignment indicative.

I guess. I didn't really pay attention D1 because you were pretty obvtown there.

Notice I didn't push you at all that game when you were town. The reason...I felt you were active. If I thought you were werewolf I probs would have pushed since I was mafia. I am not feeling town you now.

[Fro99er]

Is this D1 over?

No, but your at L-1, would anyone disagree for a roleclaim from Fox with him being at L-1?

I agree he should claim, but I also won't hammer until Wolfie says her piece

[Fro99er]

Pedit hi Wolfie!

[Fro99er]

He said was I scum for low activity. I argued that wasn't alignment indicative.

I guess. I didn't really pay attention D1 because you were pretty obvtown there.

Notice I didn't push you at all that game when you were town. The reason...I felt you were active. If I thought you were werewolf I probs would have pushed since I was mafia. I am not feeling town you now.

You felt I was active...
But I wasnt. It's why I was lynched what don't you get?

What don't YOU get?

I said you were active and I could tell you were town so I didn't pay complete attention to you. I just knew you were active town.

[Fro99er]

I don't get how you say I was active, when I was lynched for being inactive.

Have you not read me saying three times already you were obvtown so I didn't pay attention to you? I just know you posted 150 times

I'm done arguing this.

[Fro99er]

Grayfoxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx where is your swagger?

EXACTLY!

[Fro99er]

I'm going to visit Vedith.

Why on Earth would you say something like this?

Catching up now.

Why not?

Do you really think that's coming from scum Kop?

[Fro99er]

I would actually like to see more from ASP. 4 posts and the game has 269 posts already. The game is a week old, and I know he was VLA to the end of last weekend, that has given him a good 4 to 5 days to actually contribute more than what he has.

ASP has been active elsewhere today FWIW. IDK if that means anything alignment-wise

[Fro99er]

I agree. Unfortunately I don't think ASP actually wants to contribute and should replace out.

[Fro99er]

IOW, he doesn't effort much as town and can be a bit of a VI but I will admit that he really put a ton of effort into Delicious when he was wagoned and close to a lynch.

That's not what I got in GIF's flipless nightless from town Gray. He was very active town.

But I admit I didn't pay attention to him much in delicious. I didn't need to.

[Fro99er]

Because

Town!gray is so much more active, but also so much more combative. He seems passive and less reckless here.

This is bad because town would of made sure that was correct by checking the game.

This is a good point. What I said was true especially from nightless flipless.

NM, why did you sheep this without at least fact checking?

[Fro99er]

IOW, he doesn't effort much as town and can be a bit of a VI but I will admit that he really put a ton of effort into Delicious when he was wagoned and close to a lynch.

That's not what I got in GIF's flipless nightless from town Gray. He was very active town.

But I admit I didn't pay attention to him much in delicious. I didn't need to.

Can I see that game or did you already link it?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62589

[Fro99er]

Because

Town!gray is so much more active, but also so much more combative. He seems passive and less reckless here.

This is bad because town would of made sure that was correct by checking the game.

This is a good point. What I said was true especially from nightless flipless.

NM, why did you sheep this without at least fact checking?

Because it was true in my experience of grayfoxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Funny story...this is the answer I was expecting from a town you.

[Fro99er]

For me, the bigger tell is fire/combative than activity for gray.

Like, he was legit taunty/combative/frustrated after TSO scum read him and in nightless/flipless. He's so much more docile here.

[Fro99er]

The best part is, he thinks I OMGUS him and he's solely focused on the activity part for his defense, not the emotion part.

[Fro99er]

SW is slight town read, but I've never seen her scum game. SW can you link me 1 or 2 of your most recent scum games?

Sure. These are my last two. I have several others and if you want them, I can link them for you. Just let me know.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=63066

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=61824

How would you characterize your scum play vs your town play?

[Fro99er]

I'm a lot more careful and cautious as scum. I don't really give a fuck as town.

No yeah I hear that

[Fro99er]

I'm a lot more careful and cautious as scum

I don't really give a fuck as town.

It seems simplistic and

if you need me to elaborate I can

, but that about sums it up I think.

Although I found the bolded ironic...

[Fro99er]

BTW did you ever make your NM points?

[Fro99er]

Because

Town!gray is so much more active, but also so much more combative. He seems passive and less reckless here.

This is bad because town would of made sure that was correct by checking the game.

This is a good point. What I said was true especially from nightless flipless.

NM, why did you sheep this without at least fact checking?

Because it was true in my experience of grayfoxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Which game was this?

[Fro99er]

Guys, there is really way too much talk about an ongoing game.

[Fro99er]

OK, Don't link that or talk about it. I'll check myself.

On mobile too lazy to link directly, but fogger makes her 6th or 7th vote change at post #1386.

I called her on it post #1388

This is the first time I've ever been called a she

[Fro99er]

I'm guessing you are hard town reading frogger?

No he just made a compelling argument

VOTE: Not Mafia

[Fro99er]

NM knew I had stated intent to vote grayfox and slipped an L-1 vote in there as a complete sheep. He's been pushing Kop and I am quite sure he and Kop are of different alignments.

[Fro99er]

NM, Vedith, ASP-that's where I'm at right now for scumreads.

This is where I'm at before catching up. I see some stuff from ASP that I need to go through.

Sorry for my lack of activity...I'm always V/LA on Sunday's during NFL season. Will catch up in full after work.

[Fro99er]

Wow, I haven't posted for a day here... I thought I would have some catching up to do...

I would ask why Gray hasn't got more votes, but the inactivity on here tells me why already.

It's so obvious that he only got active when people were pressuring him on it.

WAT?

[Fro99er]

Sorry for the absence. Unexpected V/LA until Friday although I'll probably be on some tomorrow.

[Fro99er]

GL why are you trying to direct a track? You've heard of a thing called fake claims, right?

I'm still on V/LA, but here phoneposting for a bit.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: A Simple Plan

Sticking with one of my original scum reads.

[Fro99er]

Self-meta isn't exactly a good strategy. I typically read it as a scummy tactic.

Alright. I had to wait until my game finished, but I just finished flower viewing festival mafia (in New York) and THREE of the four scum at one point or another called me out as not liking/scummy for self-meta. I find scum actually jumps on this more than town.

Now that Vedith is claimed vig, this is the reason I thought Vedith was different team from ASP. - for the quoted above. I chose Vedith first but moved my vote to ASP because I thought Vedith was softing (turns out Vedith was). That is why I quickly switched vote to ASP, which Vedith called me out for.

I feel quite confident in this tell.

[Fro99er]

Scum 1:

Anyway...Axle's probably lurking here, enjoying this, watching me explode town. That's what he did last time he was scum.

I always explode town as town

Please don't self-meta.

Scum 2:

Fro99er i'm not going to take you seriously if you keep self-meta-ing

Scum 3:

For the record i find self-meta defense scummy, because if you acknowledge your own meta, then you're capable of faking it, and why would you bring your own meta in the first place if not for try to deflect suspicion?
I don't think bearbert is scum based on Axle bringing up that fire was all over pisskop yesterday, so can we lynch frogger pls?

[Fro99er]

Fox, why didn't you support the ASP wagon at the time it was a thing?

[Fro99er]

NVm, I thought it had more than my vote

[Fro99er]

Which should say something itself.

ASP has done next to nothing and there is very little support for lynching ASP

[Fro99er]

I can understand the self meta dislike to an extent.
Scum can easily self meta.

And what about my other point that ASP and Vedith aren't likely on the same team.

[Fro99er]

Fox or ASP need to go. Today.

Not a no-lynch

[Fro99er]

Why are you sheeping Wolfie's no lynch option?

[Fro99er]

And what about my other point that ASP and Vedith aren't likely on the same team.

What about it?
What about my NM read?

That's not how this works.

You don't get to answer my question with two questions.

[Fro99er]

fox is intentionally being obtuse

I want fox or ASP dead dead.

[Fro99er]

Well, we no lynch and Vedith vigs ASP.

eughghghghghgh

Why are we directing Vedith's kill? Isn't that a call for Vedith to make along with the people Vedith is townreading?

Yes, I want ASP dead...but too many people are trying to direct the kill. Or direct NM's track. And that makes me really paranoid those people are scum.

[Fro99er]

Why are we directing Vedith's kill? Isn't that a call for Vedith to make along with the people Vedith is townreading?

I should say, if Vedith wants their input.

[Fro99er]

Because if it hits town, that is bad. If you think it's going to hit scum!ASP, then you should just vote ASP.

Also - it didn't sound like a suggestion. More like a plan/directive.

[Fro99er]

And if he wants a no lynch why does he have a vote on his NM vanity wagon?

[Fro99er]

Sorry, I got really busy again. Started my night class on Wednesday.

Since I can't tell where this wagon is at, I'll say that I'm of the opinion we're multiball. I can't verify it for certain, but I skimmed and saw something about Kop that makes me think we might be.

This should be lynched

[Fro99er]

Kop did you receive a "town" result or a "not mafia" result on NM?

I'm okay with mass claim but will wait for others opinions.

This really seems like Alien hunting...hoping NM could still be alien. Mafia faction would want to know if there were aliens. Town only care if someone is scum (either mafia or alien) at this point.

VOTE: GL

Should have stuck with my gut read from D1.

Also, Wolfie is making me nervous by going back on her no lynch conviction then sheeping me on a town lynch.

[Fro99er]

And fine with mass claim

[Fro99er]

I'm the other Conspiracy Theorist. I investigated Soren and got a "Not Alien" result. Doesn't clear him as town, but eliminates one faction.

Hence why GL is today's best lynch (and why I also suspected Wolfie until that claim)

My best guess is we're 7-2 and the scum team is GL and Soren.

[Fro99er]

This assumes Wolfie and Vedith's claims are true.

[Fro99er]

Popcorn:

Not Mafia

Alternatively, anyone can claim anytime they like.

[Fro99er]

Like I said, it's likely 7-2 with GL and Soren scum.

[Fro99er]

I'm a cop, which is why I was pressing so hard on Kop, because a cop can only tell "mafia" or "not mafia". I'd really love to know which role can insta-confirm someone as town. Idgaf whether he's alien or mafia, I care that he somehow confirmed NM's alignment as town.

Investigated Fro99er last night, he is

not mafia

. But he may or may not be an alien.

That makes sense.

UNVOTE:

So you got a not mafia result as cop and he got a town result as a role I believe he's claiming as either cop or JOAT which has a cop shot and should function the exact same as a regular cop when used?

That really means we need to lynch in you two because one of you is lying (I think it's Kop, but will wait for his claim first)

[Fro99er]

Oh shit. There's one other town role he could be that confirms his target as town...

[Fro99er]

Yeah. No. Kop should not even claim. He's conftown IMO.

So if you are both town then scum has to be Soren + someone. It can't be NM ibecause Kop is conftown. It's likely not Wolfie. I am town.

Vedith it must be with Soren given lack of multiple kills. Vig claim makes sense as a fake claim.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Soren

[Fro99er]

Yeah. Kop DO NOT CLAIM.

it's obvious we're in 7-2 or 6-2-1 with GL fake claiming. But his reason for not understanding Kop's claim reads as genuine. So it's a last resort of it's not 7-2

[Fro99er]

It's so obvious what Kop is. I'll claim for him FFS.

He's hider which is a weak role.

If he hides behind scum, he does. That's why he specifically said who he was targeting so that if he flipped we'd know that person is scum. The fact that he didn't flip means NM is town.

[Fro99er]

*does = dies

Stupid phone

[Fro99er]

Unless it's sort of weird gambit by Kop and NM then they are conftown.

[Fro99er]

I'd rather have left scum confused about it like GL was. But town can be so :/ at times I guess outing his role was probably necessary to prevent a mislynch.

Too bad people didn't get the obvious details.

Now we wait for Soren and NM to claim.

[Fro99er]

don't tell me how to play please.

[Fro99er]

Fro99er there was no reason he can't claim that as it helps us PoE out the scum and you saying no and then claiming for him is off. I want to see people claim for themselves from now on.

I said no then claimed for him because I'm getting frustrated we outed a role for no reason. There's NO point in his claiming but you and GL insisted and weren't going to drop it.

[Fro99er]

So put this on me if you want, but we all know that's how it was going to go anyway. You know it.

[Fro99er]

I would like to know why someone claiming 1 shot vig and only one kill going through the night before, confirms them as town?

Just a skim.
This shouldn't confirm me. However, where did I say 1 shot vig?

Yeah this is so active.

L1 without claiming SW? Scummy move...

I'm the 1 shot vig... Great job on letting scum lead you...

You either forgot your role or forgot your fake claim.

VOTE: Vedith

[Fro99er]

Well if you are vig by definition you are 1 shot.

[Fro99er]

Also, you trying to "trap" me D1 was super scummy.

You softed, I changed my vote, then you insisted you "weren't liking me" for changing my vote and insisted I told the reason. When I told the reason, you didn't like me still. But refused to actually call me scum.

You intentionally put me in a place where you were going to scum read me no matter what.

[Fro99er]

Frogger - I'm confused. I haven't said that you are scum for me.

You didn't (I even said that).

What I said was you said I was "not looking good" for switching my vote.

Then I explained, and you said I was "getting all defensive". Of course I was being defensive, it felt (look at it from my perspective) like you were trying to trap me into a "not looking good" read for not explaining my vote switch, but if I did explain my vote switch I'd "not look good" for outing a PR soft. Think about it from my perspective:

- I voted you (125)
- You pointed out you clearly softed (127)
- I switched my vote (128)
- You chastised me for switching my vote after having clearly softed (several posts)
- I didn't want to explain because I didn't want to out your soft (several posts)
- You said I wasn't looking good for that vote switch (146)
- I finally gave in because you weren't going to drop it (from your several posts) so finally I explained why I vote switched and figured I'd "not look good" for outing a PR soft (153)
- You called me defensive (159)

Of course I'm going to be defensive. I felt like you were trying to make me look bad either way!

[Fro99er]

Not sure why you didn't fix it

I miss phone type-o's all the time. Gonna let that one slide.

[Fro99er]

Vedith looks pretty scummy, but I can't quite convince myself yet that he would claim vig D1 knowing that he would have to produce a body.

No, Vedith doesn't have to produce a body. It can either be explained away by targeting the same person as scum, or by any protecting role. It's a very safe claim. It's even safer because if there was a tracker (as NM originally claimed), then they could explain away a tracked result on them as well.

[Fro99er]

Remember. I got a Not Alien result on Soren. So if he's scum he's not alien.

[Fro99er]

So if we think there's an alien only team then it's gotta be Vedith plus someone. GL would be most plausible. But I don't see that as likely at all.

[Fro99er]

Either way, Vedith is mafia or alien.

[Fro99er]

Otherwise, I generally agree with this. I would really like to see some scumreads from Vedith/Soren since it feels like everyone is leaning towards them being scum, which is giving me one of those 'this lynch is too easy' vibes.

If feels too easy, yet we've gotten nowhere.

[Fro99er]

That's the problem with site meta these days. Obvscum is so hard to lynch

[Fro99er]

The fact you don't understand my claim yet still say I could be fakeclaiming really ticks me off.

And the fact that he's voting vedith and still throwing shade on you is a scumbuddy tell (Soren+Vedith) of the highest order.

[Fro99er]

@mod if I was jailed by a jail keeper does my hider power stop?

Just guessing, but if this game follows natural action resolution then jailkeep would come first

Unless the mod states otherwise in their rules, all Normal games must use NAR. The Golden Rule of NAR applies, but just to be extra clear, a list of all normal roles and their order under NAR has ben created.
Commute - Commuter
Blocking - Roleblocker, Rolestopper
Jailkeep - Jailkeeper
Protection - Doctor, Bodyguard
Miscellaneous - Neighborizer, Friendly Neighbor
Kill - Mafia factional kill, SK factional kill, Strongman, Vigilante
Role Investigation - Cop, Gunsmith, Role Cop, Vanilla Cop, Neapolitan
Action Investigation - Tracker, Watcher, Voyeur, Follower, Motion Detector

[Fro99er]

hmm...i don't think so but IDK

I'll just let the mod answer

[Fro99er]

Oh no. That quickhammer better not be game over. I'm sorry guys if it is. I really thought Vedith was scum.

If Vedith flips town and it's not game over then I think Soren still needs to be checked by GL to get a conftown or confscum and Soren needs to protect GL. Any failure to protect GL is a scumclaim by Soren.

[Fro99er]

Uuugghhh. That's not something town says. Sorry you guys.

[Fro99er]

Fro99er I still think Soren should protect you if Vedith flips Alien

That's fine. I was saying if Vedith flips town and this isn't game over, we need to confirm Soren one way or the other.

[Fro99er]

Same if Vedith flips Mafia

[Fro99er]

NM scumclaimed.

I'd say that exact thing as scum here.

Yeah. It's something scum says.

[Fro99er]

So do we just flashlynch Soren today?

Soren - why didn't you protect the cop?

[Fro99er]

So do we just flashlynch Soren today?

VOTE: Soren

LOL...i'll take that as a yes

[Fro99er]

Can't see any other possibility. If soren's town, he protects the cop.

VOTE: Soren

[Fro99er]

Also, I investigated NM and got a Not Alien result.

[Fro99er]

Well that didn't work.

What didn't?

[Fro99er]

So do we just flashlynch Soren today?

Soren - why didn't you protect the cop?

I tried to outwit scum. Because they would undoubtedly think that I would protect GL right? So they wouldn't even try to kill him. So I thought to myself, scum is going to think that way so why not protect someone else knowing that scum won't be killing GL. But I guess that didn't work.

Yeah, that makes no sense. If scum were going to kill someone other than the cop, they'd kill you.

[Fro99er]

Fastest day phase ever.

[Fro99er]

I am not scum dude!

GL got a not mafia result on me. You are Soren and Vedith's buddy.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: kop

[Fro99er]

Why did you hide Kop?

[Fro99er]

If you were town, the smartest play would be to no hide to guarantee you didn't hide behind scum and scum kills another townie.

[Fro99er]

Or you are mafia compulsive hider. You had zero reason to hide otherwise.

[Fro99er]

I cannot believe this. I'm being framed.

He's appealing to your obvtown-ness Wolfie

[Fro99er]

Of course he picked out the obvtown (Wolfie) and shot NM who he knew was town to frame me. Also, I got a no result on you but that obviously doesn't matter since you said you hid. I figured that was my way of confirming your compulsiveness because if you were town you wouldn't hide so I'd clear you as not hiding which would conftown you.

[Fro99er]

Or you are mafia compulsive hider. You had zero reason to hide otherwise.

I didn't have a reason, but in thinking more and more about it, I felt the idea was a viable one, it was the same odds as lynching the next day, 50/50.

So your defense is you are town who gambled on a 50/50?

When it was obvious Wolfie was town. Her claim was never going to be fake.

[Fro99er]

Of course he picked out the obvtown (Wolfie) and shot NM who he knew was town to frame me. Also, I got a no result on you but that obviously doesn't matter since you said you hid. I figured that was my way of confirming your compulsiveness because if you were town you wouldn't hide so I'd clear you as not hiding which would conftown you.

That's a load of crap. Why would you investigate me when you only find aliens ? You just claimed I was a mafia compulsive hider.

I picked out a town read of mine in wolfs as I figured you would take out the confirmed town and leave the doubtful. I have confirmed wolf as town and confirmed you are scum.

Think about this.

I already investigated NM. Wolfie is obvtown.

If I investigate you and get a not mafia result that confirms you didn't hide which confirms you as town. Because mafia hider MUST hide.

[Fro99er]

And we already know wolf is town. We're cross voting each other.

You don't need to talk about how you conftowned her. You knew she was town as scum with only 4 of us left we were all conftown to you. You took ZERO risk hiding behind her.

[Fro99er]

Or you are mafia compulsive hider. You had zero reason to hide otherwise.

I didn't have a reason, but in thinking more and more about it, I felt the idea was a viable one, it was the same odds as lynching the next day, 50/50.

So your defense is you are town who gambled on a 50/50?

When it was obvious Wolfie was town. Her claim was never going to be fake.

Obvious town then why didn't scum kill her then? Leaving NM in would be a better option doesn't post as much as wolfy and hammers where wolfy debates the ins and outs of what we get out of that lynch. Scum would have a better chance winning with NM in the game.

Busting out the why didn't scum kill her WIFOM.

Why WOULD scum kill her? If NM was scum and you were town you would have died. So why would scum leave alive obvtown?

Or did you forget that

[Fro99er]

Obvtown being NM in that scenario. If it was me you and NM it would still come down to me and you. So I don't understand this scum had to kill Wolfie stuff.

[Fro99er]

Or you are mafia compulsive hider. You had zero reason to hide otherwise.

I didn't have a reason, but in thinking more and more about it, I felt the idea was a viable one, it was the same odds as lynching the next day, 50/50.

So your defense is you are town who gambled on a 50/50?

When it was obvious Wolfie was town. Her claim was never going to be fake.

Obvious town then why didn't scum kill her then? Leaving NM in would be a better option doesn't post as much as wolfy and hammers where wolfy debates the ins and outs of what we get out of that lynch. Scum would have a better chance winning with NM in the game.

Also, if scum killed her you'd be dead too. So why did you hide behind the "obvious kill"?

[Fro99er]

I'm the other Conspiracy Theorist. I investigated Soren and got a "Not Alien" result. Doesn't clear him as town, but eliminates one faction.

Hence why GL is today's best lynch (and why I also suspected Wolfie until that claim)

My best guess is we're 7-2 and the scum team is GL and Soren.

Of course he picked out the obvtown (Wolfie) and shot NM who he knew was town to frame me. Also, I got a no result on you but that obviously doesn't matter since you said you hid. I figured that was my way of confirming your compulsiveness because if you were town you wouldn't hide so I'd clear you as not hiding which would conftown you.

That's a load of crap. Why would you investigate me when you only find aliens ? You just claimed I was a mafia compulsive hider.

I picked out a town read of mine in wolfs as I figured you would take out the confirmed town and leave the doubtful. I have confirmed wolf as town and confirmed you are scum.

Think about this.

I already investigated NM. Wolfie is obvtown.

If I investigate you and get a not mafia result that confirms you didn't hide which confirms you as town. Because mafia hider MUST hide.

Why would you get a not mafia result on me?

obviously I meant not alien. You're just being obtuse.

[Fro99er]

Scum would have a better chance winning with NM in the game.

Unless I'm misunderstanding some context here, then this is pure crap.

If NM and you were alive, NM would be conftown because you cleared him. And if you were scum he couldn't be your scumbuddy because then the game would be over.

The ONLY way NM isn't conftown is if you were the only NK last night. And you weren't.

[Fro99er]

You are really over complicating things. It's this simple.

Either you are town or you are scum.

If you were town a no hide is your best option to ensure we don't lose.

If you are scum you MUST kill NM because leaving him alive confirms you as scum because you cleared NM earlier in the game and whoever else (me or Wolfie) are town and know we are town.

So killing NM was your only option because you are compulsive hider. Your hide was completely safe because you know all three of us are town. But you are painting yourself as some gambling hero who saved the day by hiding when in reality it was just a bad play for town!you to make.

[Fro99er]

we lynched Vedith.

That's easy to say after the fact

[Fro99er]

Sorry only grabbed part of the quote. Phone posting

[Fro99er]

I didn't hide the day we lynched Vedith.

This is what I meant to quote

And it's easy to say after the fact

[Fro99er]

I didn't hide the day we lynched Vedith.

This is what I meant to quote

And it's easy to say after the fact

If I hid behind someone, it would have been town, and I would have announced it the day after. If I hid behind scum, I wouldn't be here to answer to you. It's not simple to answer that now it's simple I did not hide.

Or you could have just hid behind NM again.

[Fro99er]

And not announced it because it would serve no purpose to announce.

[Fro99er]

Besides. Scum!you wouldn't announce it because you don't want another conftown. Announcing one was enough to get you town cred to get to lylo.

[Fro99er]

So you are saying I'm alien?

[Fro99er]

I got cleared as not mafia by GL. Why would he lie about that?

[Fro99er]

Are you even kidding? Let's say he's scum and kills me. Then you know Kop is scum

Same if is scum and he leaves me alive.

He HAD to kill NM. It was his only option

[Fro99er]

:/ it sounds like you've already decided

[Fro99er]

Good job Kop, good job Wolfie!

[Fro99er]

Shouldn't Kop have died along with me due to the redirect?

IDK. Now that I reread my role, then yes I think so.

I though my redirect only mattered if it was something that targeted me. But given my redirect made Kop hide behind you and I shot you, then yes, Kop should have died too?

[Fro99er]

Herr was my role PM

Welcome to Micro 533,

Fro99er

!

You are an

Alien One-shot Mass Redirector

. You do not have any partners and thus do not have a factional private topic. Once per game, at Night, you may perform a factional nightkill.

Once per game, at Night, you may PM me with the name of a player. All factional and individual actions taken during that same Night will be redirected to that player. You may use this on the same night as you use your factional nightkill, should you so wish.

You win when the following conditions are met:

• All town are dead.
  
• The number of living mafia is less than or equal to the number of living aliens.

Please confirm that you have read and understood your role PM by replying to this message with the name of your role.

[Fro99er]

It was hard with only ONE night kill and only ONE shot redirect. And being enabled by Wolfie made it even harder. And having no buddies! The deck was stacked against me

[Fro99er]

Good job Kop, good job Wolfie!

I can imagine you hate me now haha

I bet you are going to try to get me lynched every game you play with me now

Not at all. It was fun

[Fro99er]

Hider resolves before redirect and redirect resolves before kill. So maybe the hide behind me counted first and the kill only hit NM then. That would make sense on how this resolved.

Well it said Kop hides behind NM so not sure

[Fro99er]

I guess here kill resolved first?

If so I didn't really have a chance then other than to convince Wolfie which wasn't happening.

Oh well

[Fro99er]

Night 3

Alien kills Not_Mafia
Fro99er redirects onto Not_Mafia
Kop hides behind SilverWolf (redirected to Not_Mafia, survives)

I believe this was also the order of operations used here

[Fro99er]

I feel like kill should have resolved last, but no biggie

[Fro99er]

No. Redirect went before hide. Just that kill went first.

[Fro99er]

The hide acts as a commute and resolves first so the redirect never hit Kop cuz he was hiding behind me so that's why he survived and when you shot NM, you only hit NM.

Then why did it say he hid behind NM?

[Fro99er]

Oh never mind. I'm confused.

GG

[Fro99er]

Yeah everything is correct.

GG town

[Fro99er]

Everybody wins!