Micro 533: Restricted Great Idea Mafia (Game over)

[Kop]

VOTE: Kop for defeating me in delicious mafia

Awww Fro99er.

Are you scum this time round?

[Kop]

VOTE: Kop for defeating me in delicious mafia

Awww Fro99er.

Are you scum this time round?

What's your comment on me sheeping this?

I think sheeping is bad overall, but in RVS I expect sheeping on the basis of there is nothing to go on.

[Kop]

Kop-do you ever vote in RVS? Can you link me to a game you did if so?

This is looking like your scumplay so far.

I do vote in RVS, but sometimes I don't. Doesn't make me scum, if I do or don't.

[Kop]

VOTE: Silverwolf

[Kop]

What the hell is the last two posts about?

[Kop]

I was testing out a hydra on another page and forgot to log into my account before posting.

It should be easy enough to figure out that's me and what I was responding to.

So you got two accounts? What is it all in aid of?

[Kop]

So I'm assuming that everybody makes a random vote and goes into lurking.

Lets start.

[Unvote silverwolf [/unvote]

VOTE: Soren

[Kop]

So I'm assuming that everybody makes a random vote and goes into lurking.

Lets start.

UNVOTE: silverwolf

VOTE: Soren

Cleared unvote tags.

[Kop]

I was testing out a hydra on another page and forgot to log into my account before posting.

It should be easy enough to figure out that's me and what I was responding to.

So you got two accounts? What is it all in aid of?

Nope, the hydra account is not relevant to this game. I'll explain later if you want to know about it but not important.

You seem kind of town.

I'd like others besides you, Fro99er and myself to post more.

Who have you participated with in this game other than me, Fro99er and Fox?

[Kop]

Why Soren Kop?

I chose a name that stood out from that vote count in hope to get something going. It had been almost 6 hours and nobody made a post. I'm trying to engage some discussion.

[Kop]

I was testing out a hydra on another page and forgot to log into my account before posting.

It should be easy enough to figure out that's me and what I was responding to.

So you got two accounts? What is it all in aid of?

Nope, the hydra account is not relevant to this game. I'll explain later if you want to know about it but not important.

You seem kind of town.

I'd like others besides you, Fro99er and myself to post more.

Who have you participated with in this game other than me, Fro99er and Fox?

I don't understand this ques. or the point of it?

Have you played with any of the other players other than the ones I have mentioned.

[Kop]

I was testing out a hydra on another page and forgot to log into my account before posting.

It should be easy enough to figure out that's me and what I was responding to.

So you got two accounts? What is it all in aid of?

Nope, the hydra account is not relevant to this game. I'll explain later if you want to know about it but not important.

You seem kind of town.

I'd like others besides you, Fro99er and myself to post more.

Who have you participated with in this game other than me, Fro99er and Fox?

I don't understand this ques. or the point of it?

Have you played with any of the other players other than the ones I have mentioned.

Nope, Just you 3.

Fair enough.

[Kop]

The whole point of the question was, if you have participated with someone, then you will have a better idea or at least a better reading of said player.

I have only played a handful of games, and I've only played with 3 of them in this game. 2 on more than one occasion.

I am not for one saying that playing with someone in the past is going to know 100% what he is, but experience of playing with that player will give us some help in achieving things.

[Kop]

I thought that I played a game with SilverWolf before... Possibly just read one of their games I guess.

Now that I'm back sitewide, we should get more involved on this.

GL - Talk to me. 43 says that you think Kop wants out of RVS? To me it looks like he is trying too hard with RVS since Silver mentioned it. Why do you feel he's trying to get out of it?

What do you think? Tell me your opinion on it all.

[Kop]

@Vedith - what do you mean by "trying too hard"?

Post 31 is bad, since it was relatively clear to me what Silver's posts meant, and 33 is a useless question, but 40 was meant to create discussion and switching vote in 35 reads like someone flailing around trying to make activity happen. It's activity for the sake of activity rather than directed questioning, but I think scum would have an easier time lurking than making 8 or 9 posts on one page. He explains his motives in 41 and I thought it was genuine. Although posts like 46 are pretty worthless.

Posts 31 and 33, I've never had any comings together, and never really looked into what these hydra accounts are all about, it's basically confusion in what it was. In all the games I've played in, I've seen people asking what there other names were, but never really dug into detail, so seeing Wolf on the hydra account basically confused me. Yes those two posts are worthless, but it was to help in future to what these hydra are all about.

[Kop]

I thought that I played a game with SilverWolf before... Possibly just read one of their games I guess.

Now that I'm back sitewide, we should get more involved on this.

GL - Talk to me. 43 says that you think Kop wants out of RVS? To me it looks like he is trying too hard with RVS since Silver mentioned it. Why do you feel he's trying to get out of it?

What do you think? Tell me your opinion on it all.

About your RVS vote?

At the end of the day, I am not trying to get out of anything. Putting one vote onto someone isn't exactly going to draw them out, I moved my vote to put a bit more pressure onto someone that may decide to post. I had two votes on me, I didn't exactly jump onto the roof and start shouting about it.

In that vote count there is majority sitting on one votes, I haven't seen them yet to answer those votes, or even react to it.

[Kop]

So that basically says there could be a

possibility

of being multi ball, but to be honest, I'd rather not speculate on that right this minute, we can leave that for day two once we have actions in, night kills to prove that theory before we can start speculating on that.

Talking about it now, doesn't offer anything and we may end up implicating people for the sake of guess work on setup.

[Kop]

So I'm assuming that everybody makes a random vote and goes into lurking.

Lets start.

VOTE: Soren

As mentioned, the vote looks random. Is it random or was there a reason behind this?

It was random at the time that I voted. There was a lot of votes putting people on one votes, which didn't really prompt any discussion so I chose a name at random to put the person on 2, to at least possibly may react if he sees a possible wagon forming. Looking into his posts, I am fairly happy to take my vote of him right now.

UNVOTE: Soren

Really? They appear to be easy questions that doesn't require much effort to me. I agree on your second read though.

I agree that they are easy questions that do not require much effort, but my thinking last night was that they are also questions that are easy to

forget

to ask. They're questions that don't immediately jump out to me as something that needs explanation, but then I read them and think, "yeah, you know, that is something worth pressing on". So my first gut read interpretation is that lazy scum that's trying to blend in (and not truly solve the game) would take those posts that she questioned at the surface level and not bother to press for details.

That being said, I wasn't a fan of SilverWolf's vote in 79. It felt rushed and lazy, but if her thinking was along the lines of the question she posed in 91 then it makes a bit more sense.

Also her point about Not_Mafia in 87 firmed up my townread of her a little bit as well.

UNVOTE: , I don't want my vote here anymore at the moment.
--

I don't think speculating on the setup is entirely useless. We shouldn't be implicating people based on convoluted theories about multiple scum factions, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that we may be dealing with two entirely separate groups of scum, and so associative tells do not necessarily guarantee towncred should one person flip scum. I think Kop had a good point about waiting for NKs.

However, I very much agree with Frogger that 81 reads like scum talking about theory as an effort to look town. There was a lot of significant content between 55 and 81 and Kop commented on none of it, and asked questions about none of it.

VOTE: Kop -

This is L-2

Kop

, what do you think of the back and forth between A Simple Plan and me, and did it tell you anything about our alignments?

My one hesitation about this vote is that Not_Mafia was the first vote here.

Not_Mafia

, you say not much is going on in Kop's ISO. What's going on in yours?

The whole back and forth between you and ASP is relatively a lot about possible setups are within this game. I wouldn't really class that as a scum tell, so going to think along the lines that you are both town, simply because of the thought process involved in your little discussion. I have given it some thought about the setup, but I am not going to do it right now until we have night actions on day two to give us a better indication because in general we could waste a lot of time, effort and discussions into what the setup could be and we could be on the wrong path completely. I'm not trying to be captain obvious, I was just merely stating.

I am fairly confident on ASP, Fro99er, Wolf and yourself for town right now. I am null on grayfox, Vedith, but I'm concerned about Not Mafia.

I think I have participated once If I recall correctly with Not Mafia (I will have to go through my previous games, to see how he was but it was a while ago, so he may have changed his style since then). But so far from what I have seen, with the roleclaim first post, disappear, then his naked vote with a feeble excuse, I am not sure if he is coming into this game with a town mentality. I don't want this to feel like it's OMGUS, but I really don't get a town or null feeling about it. If it's his playing style for both town and scum, then what can we class it as in this game?

I think I'm happy with my vote here at the moment.

VOTE: Not Mafia

@Vedith, It's fair to assume plenty of things, nothing is concrete right now, until we see what happens over night. Then we can draw conclusions, over look day one and see what more information we can dig from what has been generated, wagons, vote patterns, etc.

[Kop]

Yeah but I was more meaning anyone who has experience in this kind of setup can agree/disagree is that would be highly likely or not.

A lot of that could depend on Mod meta.

[Kop]

Oh, maybe I misinterpreted the setup. I read the requirement that "there is at least one scum faction with 2 or more members" and thought that a setup with a scum faction of 2 and a scum faction of 1 is allowable.

But I realize now that if both have to have at least two members then it's very unlikely in terms of probability.

@mod - do any and all scum factions have to have at least 2 members?

Sorry if this is a newbie question

There's nothing to stop scum teams only 1 apart from general standard setups. I agree with whoever it was. There won't be multi in a 9 man setup.

Are you even reading the game and the setup information?

VOTE: Soren
Only one of her 4 posts says anything and it isn't really showing me much.
This is too UTR, safe type of play.

What's UTR? And no, I'm not playing it safe.
What made you pick me as oppose to not mafia and gray? Each of which hasn't really shown anyone much of what they think about the game.
And given that you've fallen onto voting for someone who hasn't posted much, are most of your reads on the others town/null or in other words, no scum reads?

UTR=under the radar and when you add in that your play is safe, that's the basis for a scumread. It's D1 without a lot to go on but that's where I'm at right now. I don't vote for completely null people as a rule unless I think that pressure will bring them into the game.

@Soren-why is it that you didn't like GL's read on me because you thought my questions were easy but were so willing to accept his read on ASP who has only posted 2 posts and is basically reading him as town for doing meta research. Why is meta research more townie to you than asking questions?

More effort is put into it which is town motivated.

So that basically says there could be a

possibility

of being multi ball, but to be honest, I'd rather not speculate on that right this minute, we can leave that for day two once we have actions in, night kills to prove that theory before we can start speculating on that.

Talking about it now, doesn't offer anything and we may end up implicating people for the sake of guess work on setup.

Uuugggh the quoted above by Kop sounds way too much like this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7141971

VOTE: Kop

I question that though. Some things that people say in their scum game are their actual thought process which is non alignment indicative. But just because they said that in their scum game you end up reading them scum for it. Why is this particular thought process scummy?

Really? They appear to be easy questions that doesn't require much effort to me. I agree on your second read though.

I agree that they are easy questions that do not require much effort, but my thinking last night was that they are also questions that are easy to

forget

to ask. They're questions that don't immediately jump out to me as something that needs explanation, but then I read them and think, "yeah, you know, that is something worth pressing on". So my first gut read interpretation

is that lazy scum that's trying to blend in

(and not truly solve the game) would take those posts that she questioned at the surface level and not bother to press for details.

You said you got a town lean from those questions but now you say that you have a lazy scum read on it?

Not_Mafia

, you say not much is going on in Kop's ISO. What's going on in yours?

I like this.

Not_Mafia

, you say not much is going on in Kop's ISO. What's going on in yours?

Not much

The is the thing about Not_mafia that makes it a displeasure to play with him. He doesn't even try in the game and he acknowledges his lack of effort but doesn't care to change it. However I feel like this play is pretty town. This is speaking from the top of my head, but unless he is onto something, I feel like there is a sense of carelessness in his town games. Like his read in his 88, I see him do that as town before.
= = = = = = = = = =
I feel like Kop's vote on not_mafia is going after an easy target. Not_mafia's play is so sketchy right now that it's so easy to pin him as scum simply based on a lack of town mentality. And I guess I'm slightly biased here too since I'm reading not_mafia as town. I would vote kop but that would put him at L-1 so I'm going to see what his response is first.

It may seem an easy target to you but you are clearly brushing it off as him playing as town. If he has done this in the past, do you believe that he may do the same thing as scum, and ride this all the way to the bank? Because it will be brushed off as his town town play. If he is going to play like that it's anti town and not helping.

Jesus bloody wept.

UNVOTE: Not mafia.



VOTE: Vedith

Reason: too much speculating about setups than actual scum hunting.

[Kop]

Alright, I'm here for those lunchtime thoughts that I promised.

I don't want this to feel like it's OMGUS, but I really don't get a town or null feeling about it. If it's his playing style for both town and scum, then what can we class it as in this game?

The phrasing of these two lines pinged me as pretty scummy.

a) Why do you care what your vote feels like? If someone is your top scumread, they're your top scumread, and I don't think town should care about how it looks when they vote. If someone accuses you of OMGUS you can address it then, but preemptively explaining yourself feels over-defensive.

b) That question is pretty empty. It's crowdsourced to the audience, but people have already expressed some opinions on NM one way or the other. And if you recognize that it can come from town!Not_Mafia and scum!Not_Mafia, then why does it feel scummy rather than null to you?

Not_mafia's play is so sketchy right now that it's so easy to pin him as scum simply based on a lack of town mentality. And I guess I'm slightly biased here too since I'm reading not_mafia as town.

This is the kind of introspection that comes from town.

And then #121 came along, and like Vedith says, it doesn't give me any more reason to think Kop is town. I really don't like the vote switch here. Why unvote when you haven't heard anything at all from the person you just voted? Are you unvoting him just because other people are reading him as town? Or did Vedith appear so scummy in the four posts he made in between yours that you had to vote him immediately?

Why are people voting kop?

Also not liking this question at all. Most people gave reasons for their votes already, and this question is just kind of tossed out to the audience (similar to my point b to Kop above) - is there a specific person whose vote needs more explanation? It sounds to me like you're trying to see what people think and make them do the work of defending/re-evaluating their read, so that you can take a convenient position later once you see the responses to your question. At best, it's lazy, and I think it looks scummy regardless of Kop's alignment.

With respect to Vedith, this kind of trolling/joking is general playstyle for him, as I have looked at his meta before. I don't read alignment into it either way, if anything, I think he likes to act scummy as town to see who scumreads him and why.

With respect to Not_Mafia, he can't keep avoiding questions the whole game. I'm willing to give this kind of behavior a pass and not scumread him for it because it's Day 1. It would be a problem if he carries the attitude all the way into lategame, but as of now he is pushing on a scum suspect and offering a few explanations/reads, even if they are minimal.

I put that comment on how it may feel OMFUS vote, but I was simply putting it out there before it is questioned, because all that happens is it totally veers away and removes possibly ill feeling that it's not a scum reading vote, but more a OMGUS. And I'd rather not go on for posts and waste time explaining why it's not a OMGUS vote, more a scum read vote. This can go towards you and Soren (post below) I removed my vote because it looked like nobody intends to join me on that wagon.

And to be totally honest with you, I'm not 100% it was you that said it, but someone said it that this is normal for NM, so I did have a quick look through a few games from NM and his opening posts in those games are a lot different from how he entered this game. The ones that I have seen are straight into random votes, in this game, he immediately roleclaims, I didn't see in the games that I have looked at where he has roleclaimed straight off the bat.

Call it buckling whatever but if I can't get a wagon on someone, I'd rather my vote on somewhere that may actually count towards something, rather than a vote that counts for nothing.

Don't like kop buckling to the slightlest bit of pressure, looks like he just wants to go with the flow/least contraversial target at any given juncture

Precisely this, it shows that kop gave little to no thought with his not_mafia vote. He just wanted to vote someone to appear like he's doing something in the game while not actually thinking deeply enough. I'm happy to vote for kop right now.
VOTE: Kop

Kop looks like frustrated town to me. I'm really starting to dislike all the defense of NM this game.

Don't like kop buckling to the slightlest bit of pressure, looks like he just wants to go with the flow/least contraversial target at any given juncture

I'm not so sure.

I can see both perspectives but speaking from personal experience, I actually think it's more towny than scummy because that's how I react. I'll often buckle under pressure, and my reads will be all over the place as town. As scum, I drive my mislynch through (see Ducky in BEES or goodmorning in refraction, although I did think GM was scum, I knew I wasn't lynching my faction in that which is all I cared about).

I don't think it's fair to assess someone's scum game with your own meta/play, because they are a different player. For instance, I would react completely the opposite from you if I was scum. When I'm scum I find it hard to scum read people, so I end up buckling with my votes and tend to not give much thought into it. We have to think in the mindset of how Kop plays, but I haven't played with him before so I'll just have to assess his play here.

[Kop]

If he is posting elsewhere is there a chance of a mod reminder to him that he is in this game? He's 8 hours away from a prod but it would be nice for him to show up and answer these questions, and to be honest I think he's just thinking we will move onto something else by keeping away.

Consider my vote on gray but I'm not going to put him at L-1 yet.

[Kop]

I'm getting close to prod range - not much has changed for me. Didn't think Vedith was intentionally softing but it was obvious that Fro99er thought he was, so I'm not sure why Vedith drew it out.

Wagon on grayfox feels forced, I don't scumread people for lack of content unless they are still posting in the thread. Still liking my vote on Kop for now but I'll be back later with some questions to maybe push the thread along.

He is being scum read not for the lack of content, it's all boiling down to the fact that he said he would give a view tomorrow (today?) And he was overdue and according to wolf he was posting elsewhere (whether it be a simple two lines he was still posting and on here). So that's what it is boiling down too.

I still don't like the fact that NM has been gone for well over a day too.

[Kop]

What did you think of kop's vote on not mafia and then changing it as soon as I called him out on it?

I made a post explaining my reasoning, but I want to elaborate on one point and I want your view of it. I have browsed some of Not Mafias games, not in great detail but just to look at how he approaches it. And in those few games that I looked at, he entered them in a different manner to this game in particular, he starts of with Random votes, but never a role claim from the bounce. Now looking over things, you said there is something to learn from his claim, what have you learnt so far?

[Kop]

Can someone lay out a Kop is scum case cuz I still don't see it?

For me it's primarily the unvote on Not_Mafia without any response from NM, which he justified because he wants his vote where it will do something. It's clear he still finds Not_Mafia suspicious because of the immediate roleclaim, yet his vote is on Vedith for a lack of scumhunting and he hasn't asked Vedith any questions. There's a lot of IIoA instead of looking for answers. It's not a bulletproof case but it's who I'm most suspicious of right now. I just don't think he should care about what we think of his wagon/vote, especially this early in D1.

@Kop

- if you could get someone lynched right now regardless of what the rest of the town thought, who would it be? Is Vedith more likely to flip scum than Not_Mafia?

@Vedith

- Why is grayfox's lurking more likely to come from scum than RL-busy town? He's at three votes and has several people asking him for answers, what more pressure can we put on him?

It would be Vedith but not 100% what he would flip, I think we could gain a lot more from a Vedith lynch than NM, because Vedith has had more interactions in this game than what NM has. NM has posted a few posts that provide not a great deal that would give us information going into day two.

@Vedith, you have made a couple of posts towards the manner of how NM has played, is this game different from his usual posts? How do you feel about him, do you get a town!NM, null!NM or a scum!NM?

I've been in a few games with Fox and to be honest, he's one of those players that always ends up getting lynched due to his playstyle, which is different this time round than the other game I played with him, and he was town then.

If I had to lynch, it would be in this order 1) Vedit 2)Fox 3) NM

@Wolf, how do you feel about Vedith?

[Kop]

@Kop
Which game are you referring to?

Delicious part two.

[Kop]

@Vedith, you have made a couple of posts towards the manner of how NM has played, is this game different from his usual posts? How do you feel about him, do you get a town!NM, null!NM or a scum!NM?

I can never tell overall with NM. Do I think that he would claim a role (regardless if false or not) as scum? No. Because of this alone I guess town. However, the claim is another issue and isn't really worth discussing over if he's felt as town.

I've been in a few games with Fox and to be honest, he's one of those players that always ends up getting lynched due to his playstyle, which is different this time round than the other game I played with him, and he was town then.

If I had to lynch, it would be in this order 1) Vedit 2)Fox 3) NM

Can you explain this more? So is his play style the same? If it is the same and you feel that he gets mis lynched for it, why on earth would he be your second lynch?

He is second in the list due to what I said in the latter to which it's seemingly you have ignored. I said his playstyle is different this time round, as in that delicious game, I am sure he was more involved, and even when there was a wagon on him he answered, this time round, he has been I feel anyway, restrained.

[Kop]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... t[]=244354

That is the ISO to the delicious game from Fox.

He was a lot more active day one, actively scum hunting.

Look at day one so far in this game, it feels different, lack of content in posts and just seems more ducking and diving.

[Kop]

First time I played with him he was a town gladiator, Delicious game he was a VT, to both he was lynched.

[Kop]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62705

That was the game where he was town gladiator.

[Kop]

Frogger and NM are null right now.
I'm not liking frogger but the dispute with Vedith seems genuine. And Vedith is my biggest scum read right now.

If Vedith is your biggest scum read, why aren't you voting him?

[Kop]

Intent to vote/hammer gray.

Not sure if L-1 or L-2

I will wait for gray to answer my questions before voting.

Town!gray is so much more active, but also so much more combative. He seems passive and less reckless here.

I think he is L-2.

[Kop]

Nobody hammer yet.

[Kop]

@Fro99er

, What do you think we can achieve from a Fox lynch?

@GL and Soren

, how do you feel about the Fox wagon?

[Kop]

Is this D1 over?

No, but your at L-1, would anyone disagree for a roleclaim from Fox with him being at L-1?

[Kop]

He said was I scum for low activity. I argued that wasn't alignment indicative.

I guess. I didn't really pay attention D1 because you were pretty obvtown there.

Notice I didn't push you at all that game when you were town. The reason...I felt you were active. If I thought you were werewolf I probs would have pushed since I was mafia. I am not feeling town you now.

You felt I was active...
But I wasnt. It's why I was lynched what don't you get?

What don't YOU get?

I said you were active and I could tell you were town so I didn't pay complete attention to you. I just knew you were active town.

I don't get how you say I was active, when I was lynched for being inactive.

The point he is making, was that you were active, but actively scum hunting. This game, you aren't as active, and more ducking and diving, and a lot less scum hunting up until your wagon started.

I can see a difference in your game, and I'm sure others who played with you in that game, also can notice that.

Does that make the point clearer for you?

[Kop]

I'm going to visit Vedith.

[Kop]

I'm going to visit Vedith.

Night One.

[Kop]

I would actually like to see more from ASP. 4 posts and the game has 269 posts already. The game is a week old, and I know he was VLA to the end of last weekend, that has given him a good 4 to 5 days to actually contribute more than what he has.

[Kop]

I would actually like to see more from ASP. 4 posts and the game has 269 posts already. The game is a week old, and I know he was VLA to the end of last weekend, that has given him a good 4 to 5 days to actually contribute more than what he has.

ASP has been active elsewhere today FWIW. IDK if that means anything alignment-wise

Not alignment indicative but it would be nice to see a contribution from him that can give us a different perspective.

We have been in a little circle going back and forth debating, to a point where it would be good to have a fresh set of eyes on it all. Beside he has a sheep vote on Fox at the moment, I'd like to see if Fox latest posts have altered his opinion.

[Kop]

re 150: alright, I can sheep that.

VOTE: Gray

Will post something substantial tomorrow.

This was on Thurs. Can you please do this? I would like to hear more from you.

pedit: Or we can lynch him? He doesn't look town to me from what I've read so far.

Well to be honest, I'd rather not lynch him since he won't look town to anyone with only 4 posts.

Best solution is prod him and if that doesn't pick up his contributions then the mod can replace him and give that slot a fair chance. Policy lynching can either work for town or against town, and I'd rather not go down a route in policy lynching which is only a 50/50 result.

[Kop]

@GL and Soren

, how do you feel about the Fox wagon?

Don't like it, don't like it at all. Vedith has only been pushing Fox and hasn't really poked around much beyond that, other than a back-and-forth with Fro99er that didn't go anywhere. ASP has no content and openly admitted to sheeping with his vote. I have no idea why Fro99er was willing to hammer so quickly (we have 6 days left) and the entirety of the case on Fox seems to be that he was lurking originally and that his meta shows that he's more active as town. I agree that he should be posting more frequently than he had up to that point, but I don't agree with using meta as justification for a scumread, as meta is easily manipulated and changes often. Meta should only supplement understanding of playstyle, I wouldn't use it as the foundation of a case to lynch someone. Plus he even explicitly said that RL has been keeping him from this game. The lynch feels really rushed to me which means scum is probably okay with it.

I don't use META as a be all end all, but I do like to use it as a indication to what he could possibly be in this game. In my previous game, my game stance in how I portrayed myself was clearly spotted by Wolfie in the given instance, because she knows my meta, I had to result into tricking her by using my role to gain her trust. So I can see why META is sometimes important, but I wouldn't use it as concrete evidence but more purely to use in aiding the gaining of information. It might seemed rushed, but I think the points for the wagon have already been expressed, and it's not all down to meta but that is a big part of it.

It's also eyebrow raising to me that both Fro99er and Kop are asking for a claim already. Feels like rolefishing.

@Kop

, 268 and 269, why on earth would you say that? What does town gain from you saying that?

Also, what are your thoughts on the Fox wagon? You said you think he's a good lynch but didn't vote him, do you think there's scum on the wagon?

It's not eyeraising about the role claim, it's not fishing at all. He was at L-1, it required one more vote and he was lynched, I always thought it is viable for someone to roleclaim at L-1 to prevent us lynching a possible pr without himself having a chance to give us a good enough reason not to drop a hammer. Is it not an instance for you to ask for somoene to roleclaim or do it yourself, if your one vote away from being lynched? Or are you more happy for someone to keep there roles to themselves, and just be allowed to be lynched?

And as for my two posts, all that will come clear.

[Kop]

And if he flips town, yes there will be scum on his wagon, I will be highly surprised if there isn't. 2 suspects are on the wagon that I have suspected, and one of them is the one I'm voting for. The other one that I also suspected is on the wagon, and he's the one a few objected for me pushing because he's an 'easy' target.

And also can I point out GL, I didn't say at all in this game, that he would be a good lynch. Could you point that out to me where I said that?

[Kop]

And if he flips town, yes there will be scum on his wagon, I will be highly surprised if there isn't. 2 suspects are on the wagon that I have suspected, and one of them is the one I'm voting for. The other one that I also suspected is on the wagon, and he's the one a few objected for me pushing because he's an 'easy' target.

And also can I point out GL, I didn't say at all in this game, that he

(Fox)

would be a good lynch. Could you point that out to me where I said that?

EBWOP

[Kop]

@Vedit

, What do you think of NM? And his vote?

[Kop]

In post #339 I said it will all come clear.

[Kop]

Is it not an instance for you to ask for somoene to roleclaim or do it yourself, if your one vote away from being lynched? Or are you more happy for someone to keep there roles to themselves, and just be allowed to be lynched?

Usually I figure the person who declares intent asks for the claim. What pinged me about the way that you did it was that 254 is asking for a claim without declaring intent to hammer.

And also can I point out GL, I didn't say at all in this game, that he would be a good lynch. Could you point that out to me where I said that?

Sure:

If I had to lynch, it would be in this order 1) Vedit

2)Fox

3) NM

Is your top 2 scumread not a good lynch? And what do you think of this Not_Mafia wagon?

Pls don't be a pats fan. Pls don't be a pats fan

Pats had a bye this week, so it's unlikely, right? Fingers crossed!

~Ravens fan

I had already posted my intent to vote, before I asked if it's viable for him to roleclaim, and I posted my intent whilst he was at L-2 as I didn't want to put a vote down for someone, to hammer too quick.

I put him at Number two for all reasons expressed that led to his wagon, but now seeing more and more of the game since I posted that, he's falling down the list.

My list up to this point is 1) Vedith 2) Not Mafia 3)Fox/ASP.

I still hold Vedith as my number one, as I haven't seen a great deal for me to actually change my mind.

[Kop]

Unvote Vedith

I'm going to catch up in a bit, just finished work and going to have some food.

I'd prefer a NM lynch than a Fox, right as of now.

[Kop]

Still think grayfoxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is scum, Vedith you must shoot tonight, if there's no extra kill and you're alive tomorrow you're autolynch

I do not like this post, at all. In fact I hate it. It's far too much WIFOM.

[Kop]

Still think grayfoxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is scum, Vedith you must shoot tonight, if there's no extra kill and you're alive tomorrow you're autolynch

I do not like this post, at all. In fact I hate it. It's far too much WIFOM.

What is WIFOM about it?

Pure speculation without no thought of any possible scenarios. Basically doing the mafias work for them in other words.

[Kop]

Why live in potential, when we can live in reality?

The reality of it is your assuming if he doesn't shoot he is going to be autolynched without looking at any possibilities of what could have happened.

[Kop]

VOTE: Not Mafia

I should have left it here in the first place. I still haven't seen anything that tells me his town. His latest posts have been made without any thought and done only to look like he's doing something for town.

I'm going to visit Soren. Game has been going on more than a week, there is enough there in the thread to have at least one scum read. And he's town reading NM and he is willing to lynch him, ahead of his null reads where he states he wouldn't mind lynching any of his null reads later in his post. Surely if your town reading someone, you wouldn't consider lynching them even if it was just to get a lynch over the line.

[Kop]

I don't believe that someone with a 2013 join date doesn't understand the concept of policy lynches

I understand policy lynches, but only in certain circumstances, this is not one of them. But I know what I'm thinking, I think others might, but I am not going to spell it out for you, simply because you put WIFOM out there, I am not adding to it.

[Kop]

VOTE: A Simple Plan

At work will add something later when I'm fully finished.

[Kop]

Alright here's the abridged gist of why I find Kop scummier than Not_Mafia:

KOP

Spoiler: Kop

Kop's first serious vote was on Not_Mafia, because of "roleclaim and naked vote with feeble excuse". If a vote has a reason, it's not naked IMO, and then there was the hedging with "I don't want this to look like OMGUS" which I already called out my problems with in 137.

However, after Soren and Fro99er say Kop's vote looks like it's going after an easy target, Kop immediately switches to Vedith, with no posts from Not_Mafia in between his first vote and his second. "Jesus bloody wept" - seriously? Crazy overreaction to literally two people disagreeing with you.

For your problems with the OMGUS post, I already answered that question, and I am not going to repeat myself.

I switched my vote from NM to Vedith, because I made points to why I voted, and they were brushed off in no certain terms, I don't believe he is scum. So why keep my vote there and just talk to a brick wall if nobody was willing to listen? Did anybody go back to the points I made and said let's discuss this? No. I didn't have any backing, I am not going to chase ghosts at that time if nobody was accepting the points I made.

Next, Fox wagon picks up steam, and Kop in 158 sheeps the lurking accusation and says, "consider my vote on gray but I'm not going to put him at L-1 yet". This is encouraging a wagon without throwing any meaningful support behind it. Would look bad if we see a scum flip on Fox.

Why would it look bad? I wasn't going to put him at L-1 in case he is wrongly hammered. It's simple as that, had I put my vote on him and someone accidently doesn't see him at L-1, votes, he is hammered, I've always posted intent to vote when close to a lynch, in case of that. And how the hell is it encouraging a wagon, when there already is one on him? There was a discussion on him, there was pressure on him, and there were votes on him, isn't that a wagon?

[qute]In 177 Kop's lynch order is:

1) Vedit 2)Fox 3) NM

He makes some more meta arguments about scum!Fox without ever voting him, pushes for a claim from Fox when he hits L-1 without stating intent. Then randomly softs his visiting role, meanwhile there's literally no pressure on Kop at this point in the game.

Says he's against an ASP policy lynch in 278. But his whole reason for suspecting Fox has been a lack of posts/answers to questions coupled with his meta where he has been more active. So to me this looks inconsistent: Kop initially suspects Fox for lurking, Fox comes in and defends himself, Kop doesn't want to lynch ASP for lurking, but Kop doesn't say what's particularly scummy about Fox's posts in this game.

"I never said Fox would be a good lynch" in 340, this is inconsistent with 177. Then says in 365 that Fox is falling down his scumlist, but doesn't elaborate or explain why. This is the point in which he first prefers NM over Fox.[/quote]

I never voted for him, simply I parked my vote on my first lynch order, whilst the discussion was on Fox. I never pushed Vedith has hard as I clearly should have, but just been distracted with everything, RL, keeping up with discussions and when I think I've got time to come into the game, something crops up, so by time I come back, I've forgotten everything that I was thinking.

Fox is different scenario to ASP. Fox was asked a few questions, he didn't answer them and kept hailing out I will do it tomorrow, and it was a day later, we were still waiting. He was posting elsewhere it was pointed out. ASP lurking he simply didn't come into the thread to even make a post, he wasn't asked any questions which were deflected or ignored, he simply flat out didn't post at all. And I said I wouldn't lynch because it wouldn't benefit us if he couldn't or wouldn't answer, it was a 50/50 whatever way it would flip. Fox ignoring at the time and filling us with promises at the time I posted, was more telling than somoene who didn't post. I didn't say exactly what was scummy, simply because the points were already made, I shared the same opinion, I am not going to regurgitate what was already out there in aid to look like I am doing something, I had nothing else to add to what was already out there.

Fox then started to fall down the list because he was starting to come into the game more, and I just didn't have the same feeling. That feeling could very well be wrong, but my confidence in that read was dwindling a little. I've moved my reads around simply because things are happening, things have been said and confidence goes down with it, so I have been switching and changing simply because I'm doubting myself in my mind and can't make it up where I want to go.

384 calls out Not_Mafia for WIFOM, but I see literally no WIFOM in suggesting to Vedith that he needs to shoot. Like, that's literally just a statement to Vedith. More on this in my NM section.

And now in 452 he's suddenly willing to vote A Simple Plan. Part of the reason I suggested a ASP lynch is to see if Kop would change his mind from 278. He did.[/spoiler]

CONCLUSION

: I don't really see consistent behavior here. Kop has voted for Not_Mafia, Vedith, encouraged a Fox lynch without ever voting it, then back to Not_Mafia, now onto ASP. He's just surfing along the tides of prevailing public opinion and it looks like he's okay with almost any popular wagon. I see someone pretending to be town and pretending to scumhunt, not someone being town and scumhunting. His scumreads involve some form of Not_Mafia, Fox, ASP, and Vedith (until the claim), shifting around in order and lynch-desirability without any discernible reason as to why.

The WIFOM is simply he wants to auto lynch someone that if he is telling the truth about the vig, and not seeing what could happen, he is simply going to push for an autolynch. The way I read that, and thought more into it, if Scum have a roleblocker, they block the shot, and they know his lynch is going to pushed for. If that was his plan to give that impression to scum, then I'd have rather it not been said in the first place. I'd have just simply preferred Vedith to go out, shoot a player of his choice, and if there isn't a kill that he can answer too, then discuss the scenario, not simply you are going to be autolynched regardless of what could have happened. Yes he could very well be lying about what his role actually is, he could be scum, but he could be town, but I'd rather read more into it before actually commiting to lynching him to find out what the real truth is.

Voting ASP, look at my lynch order, he is in there, and if he has got a wagon, I am happy to go there if that is the path it looks to be going down. I'd rather lynch someone than a no lynch, and if that player falls into my order whether it be first or third I will go for it. But if the path that it looks to be going down and I don't genuinely believe he is scum, then I am not going to vote, I'd rather a no lynch at that point, but it's never gone down that route. I'm still standing in the same boat, that Fro99er, SW, and yourself as town. ASP was there purely for the points I made early game but he fell down because it just felt that he made a few posts, didn't feel there was any scum tells, and then just went into the background whilst the discussion were well away from him. And like I said, my views were in majority people have said, I don't have any other inputs to add to it, I could generate them but I have been distracted and not really looking deeper than I should have.

[Kop]

Alright here's the abridged gist of why I find Kop scummier than Not_Mafia:

KOP

Spoiler: Kop

Kop's first serious vote was on Not_Mafia, because of "roleclaim and naked vote with feeble excuse". If a vote has a reason, it's not naked IMO, and then there was the hedging with "I don't want this to look like OMGUS" which I already called out my problems with in 137.

However, after Soren and Fro99er say Kop's vote looks like it's going after an easy target, Kop immediately switches to Vedith, with no posts from Not_Mafia in between his first vote and his second. "Jesus bloody wept" - seriously? Crazy overreaction to literally two people disagreeing with you.

For your problems with the OMGUS post, I already answered that question, and I am not going to repeat myself.

I switched my vote from NM to Vedith, because I made points to why I voted, and they were brushed off in no certain terms, I don't believe he is scum. So why keep my vote there and just talk to a brick wall if nobody was willing to listen? Did anybody go back to the points I made and said let's discuss this? No. I didn't have any backing, I am not going to chase ghosts at that time if nobody was accepting the points I made.

Next, Fox wagon picks up steam, and Kop in 158 sheeps the lurking accusation and says, "consider my vote on gray but I'm not going to put him at L-1 yet". This is encouraging a wagon without throwing any meaningful support behind it. Would look bad if we see a scum flip on Fox.

Why would it look bad? I wasn't going to put him at L-1 in case he is wrongly hammered. It's simple as that, had I put my vote on him and someone accidently doesn't see him at L-1, votes, he is hammered, I've always posted intent to vote when close to a lynch, in case of that. And how the hell is it encouraging a wagon, when there already is one on him? There was a discussion on him, there was pressure on him, and there were votes on him, isn't that a wagon?

In 177 Kop's lynch order is:

1) Vedit 2)Fox 3) NM

He makes some more meta arguments about scum!Fox without ever voting him, pushes for a claim from Fox when he hits L-1 without stating intent. Then randomly softs his visiting role, meanwhile there's literally no pressure on Kop at this point in the game.

Says he's against an ASP policy lynch in 278. But his whole reason for suspecting Fox has been a lack of posts/answers to questions coupled with his meta where he has been more active. So to me this looks inconsistent: Kop initially suspects Fox for lurking, Fox comes in and defends himself, Kop doesn't want to lynch ASP for lurking, but Kop doesn't say what's particularly scummy about Fox's posts in this game.

"I never said Fox would be a good lynch" in 340, this is inconsistent with 177. Then says in 365 that Fox is falling down his scumlist, but doesn't elaborate or explain why. This is the point in which he first prefers NM over Fox.

I never voted for him, simply I parked my vote on my first lynch order, whilst the discussion was on Fox. I never pushed Vedith has hard as I clearly should have, but just been distracted with everything, RL, keeping up with discussions and when I think I've got time to come into the game, something crops up, so by time I come back, I've forgotten everything that I was thinking.

Fox is different scenario to ASP. Fox was asked a few questions, he didn't answer them and kept hailing out I will do it tomorrow, and it was a day later, we were still waiting. He was posting elsewhere it was pointed out. ASP lurking he simply didn't come into the thread to even make a post, he wasn't asked any questions which were deflected or ignored, he simply flat out didn't post at all. And I said I wouldn't lynch because it wouldn't benefit us if he couldn't or wouldn't answer, it was a 50/50 whatever way it would flip. Fox ignoring at the time and filling us with promises at the time I posted, was more telling than somoene who didn't post. I didn't say exactly what was scummy, simply because the points were already made, I shared the same opinion, I am not going to regurgitate what was already out there in aid to look like I am doing something, I had nothing else to add to what was already out there.

Fox then started to fall down the list because he was starting to come into the game more, and I just didn't have the same feeling. That feeling could very well be wrong, but my confidence in that read was dwindling a little. I've moved my reads around simply because things are happening, things have been said and confidence goes down with it, so I have been switching and changing simply because I'm doubting myself in my mind and can't make it up where I want to go.

384 calls out Not_Mafia for WIFOM, but I see literally no WIFOM in suggesting to Vedith that he needs to shoot. Like, that's literally just a statement to Vedith. More on this in my NM section.

And now in 452 he's suddenly willing to vote A Simple Plan. Part of the reason I suggested a ASP lynch is to see if Kop would change his mind from 278. He did.

The WIFOM is simply he wants to auto lynch someone that if he is telling the truth about the vig, and not seeing what could happen, he is simply going to push for an autolynch. The way I read that, and thought more into it, if Scum have a roleblocker, they block the shot, and they know his lynch is going to pushed for. If that was his plan to give that impression to scum, then I'd have rather it not been said in the first place. I'd have just simply preferred Vedith to go out, shoot a player of his choice, and if there isn't a kill that he can answer too, then discuss the scenario, not simply you are going to be autolynched regardless of what could have happened. Yes he could very well be lying about what his role actually is, he could be scum, but he could be town, but I'd rather read more into it before actually commiting to lynching him to find out what the real truth is.

Voting ASP, look at my lynch order, he is in there, and if he has got a wagon, I am happy to go there if that is the path it looks to be going down. I'd rather lynch someone than a no lynch, and if that player falls into my order whether it be first or third I will go for it. But if the path that it looks to be going down and I don't genuinely believe he is scum, then I am not going to vote, I'd rather a no lynch at that point, but it's never gone down that route. I'm still standing in the same boat, that Fro99er, SW, and yourself as town. ASP was there purely for the points I made early game but he fell down because it just felt that he made a few posts, didn't feel there was any scum tells, and then just went into the background whilst the discussion were well away from him. And like I said, my views were in majority people have said, I don't have any other inputs to add to it, I could generate them but I have been distracted and not really looking deeper than I should have.

[Kop]

The hell. You broke the forums.

I've fixed it, god knows what I did.

[Kop]

The hell. You broke the forums.

I've fixed it, god knows what I did.

The post I made, not the page, I mean.

[Kop]

I'd like to lynch asp or no lynch. I will visit Soren, Vedith shoots whoever and NM tracks whoever.

If NM can't provide any results then I'm going to autolynch him. Same difference with what he said about Vedith, so same could be said about him.

[Kop]

No in fact I won't go to Soren, I will visit NM then I can know for sure whether I am right or wrong.

[Kop]

If I think ASP is a vengful townie, then I'm going to my original plan before I changed it to NM.

[Kop]

So one kill. Would you like to lie claim to who you shot Vedith?

Not Mafia, who did you track?

[Kop]

And we don't lynch NM, he is town.

[Kop]

So with that lynch flip, I think it's safe to assume, that we have an alien/s in this game.

[Kop]

I killed Gray.
No PM to say that it was unsuccessful either.

It was pretty obvious that I would shoot him, he should have claimed and hoped for a doc or something.

@Kop - Are you calling him town because he voted you?

No. I called him town as I said I was visiting him last night. And he is town.

[Kop]

I just don't know, who could be scum

Who did you track?

[Kop]

So many thoughts going through my head right now.

One death from Vediths claimed shot.
Conspiracy theorist dead, finds aliens.
Who did mafia shoot? Did they hit someone that was protected? Or did Fox jailkeep the person making the kill?
Are we even looking for mafia? Are we just looking for aliens?

Too many assumptions to think of.

[Kop]

I think I need to over look my reads because the only reads I have right now are:

Vedith pretty much town unless proven otherwise.
Not Mafia is confirmed town.

[Kop]

No in fact I won't go to Soren, I will visit NM then I can know for sure whether I am right or wrong.

This was the reason I chose NM. I chased him for a good part of the game. By choosing NM, it prevented me chasing him again day 2, or if I didn't chase him, it would remove any uncertaintities I had.

[Kop]

Well to be honest, I can't see a downside to it.

Overall thinking, the scum lie in these 4:

Fro99er, Silverwolf, Soren, and GL.

Vedith is a claimed vigilante, he's claimed the Fox kill.
NM is confirmed town. And I know I am town.

[Kop]

I would like to hear those other 3 thoughts before I think more about the roleclaims.

[Kop]

I think a mass claim would be best.

Btw - What does ASP's role do?

It gets Alien or not Alien results.

So it would spell that there probably will be aliens in this game.

That's what is putting doubts on me actually thinking there is mafia in the game, we could just be looking for aliens, which explains the one death. Or Mafia have either not shot, or Fox jailkept the person performing the kill.

[Kop]

Town.

[Kop]

And you are claiming "Cop" as your role?

Why are you rolefishing? Just understand my point, NM is town. I will roleclaim, if and when everyone agrees to a mass roleclaim. Until then, just accept what I have said about NM, he is town.

[Kop]

Ah, I apologize, I made a mistake here, I thought you had already claimed cop. I see now that I was mistaken, it was Grayfoxxxx/Vedith who had said they thought you were a cop.

If you are not a cop then I have no problem with what you have said.

I apoligize if I came off as snappy. I hate Mondays

We're just waiting for opinions of Fro99er and Soren. I think at this point a mass roleclaim isn't actually a bad idea, but it depends on what others think.

[Kop]

I confirm I'm the hider.

[Kop]

In effect to what am thinking my role is pointless now so I think I can see a main reason why Fro99er didn't want it out there.

[Kop]

Yeah this is so active.

L1 without claiming SW? Scummy move...

I'm the 1 shot vig... Great job on letting scum lead you...

There's you Vedith that's where you claimed 1 shot.

Will get to this properly when I finish work

[Kop]

I mean, to try and use me typing say instead of see or whatever it was as an argument proves how fucking petty this game is.

Dude I never said you were scummy for that, it was just annoying that we had to spend a back and forth clarifying what you meant. Instead of just complaining about how attacked you feel, put some effort in and tell us who you think scum is.

SilverWolf you say PoE means Vedith/Soren. What if Vedith's not scum?

Also I hate to complicate things more but Kop do you get any kind of indication of a successful/failed hide? Otherwise you may have been jailed and we don't know for certain that Not_Mafia is town.

I've got a lot to catch up on but what's the order process? Because as far as I know hider dies if the person is scum regardless if they are jail kept? I will post more when I get home got a 3 hour drive back home.

[Kop]

Well I'm just assuming it goes regardless if they are jailed. The only confirmation I am going off is the fact that I'm still alive.

[Kop]

That's pretty much good enough for me because if he was jail kept then I'm assuming I would be too.

I know I've been in a game where I recruited someone but ended up getting the hider too because he hides behind the person I recruited. So I guess it would be the same in regards to jail keeping.

[Kop]

I die if I hide behind scum. If I don't I have hidden behind town.

[Kop]

@mod if I was jailed by a jail keeper does my hider power stop?

[Kop]

Isn't hider like commute though?

[Kop]

If Kop is scum I will never trust him in a game again.

I am not I'm town. Sorry I've had 2 busy days 15 hour shifts I was intending to fully committed once I finished work last night had I not fell asleep.

[Kop]

Anyone I should hide behind or do I not hide ?

[Kop]

I'm not going to hide because if I hide behind NM they can kill NM and it will kill me too. I think so think it's best I don't hide. Which is why Fro99er didn't want my role to be revealed.

[Kop]

But surely you don't gamble on trying to outwit scum in that manner? If you thought that what's to say they didn't think the same and shot GL anyway.

[Kop]

Which they did.

They would have killed you if they didn't want to shoot the cop.

[Kop]

VOTE: Soren

[Kop]

This is should be easy.

I took a chance and I hid behind you wolf.

VOTE: Fro99er

[Kop]

Like I said I took a huge chance and I felt that Wolfie was town, this was to guarantee what I thought. You are scum, if Wolfie was not town, I die. Simple as that. And now you die.

[Kop]

If wolf was scum I made a mistake in doing so but I felt that I didn't want to be on a scenario where we discussed for God knows how long on a 50 50 chance of hitting scum.

My plan played off Wolfie is confirmed town, you are scum.

[Kop]

Or you are mafia compulsive hider. You had zero reason to hide otherwise.

I didn't have a reason, but in thinking more and more about it, I felt the idea was a viable one, it was the same odds as lynching the next day, 50/50.

[Kop]

Of course he picked out the obvtown (Wolfie) and shot NM who he knew was town to frame me. Also, I got a no result on you but that obviously doesn't matter since you said you hid. I figured that was my way of confirming your compulsiveness because if you were town you wouldn't hide so I'd clear you as not hiding which would conftown you.

That's a load of crap. Why would you investigate me when you only find aliens ? You just claimed I was a mafia compulsive hider.

I picked out a town read of mine in wolfs as I figured you would take out the confirmed town and leave the doubtful. I have confirmed wolf as town and confirmed you are scum.

[Kop]

Or you are mafia compulsive hider. You had zero reason to hide otherwise.

I didn't have a reason, but in thinking more and more about it, I felt the idea was a viable one, it was the same odds as lynching the next day, 50/50.

So your defense is you are town who gambled on a 50/50?

When it was obvious Wolfie was town. Her claim was never going to be fake.

Obvious town then why didn't scum kill her then? Leaving NM in would be a better option doesn't post as much as wolfy and hammers where wolfy debates the ins and outs of what we get out of that lynch. Scum would have a better chance winning with NM in the game.

[Kop]

I'm the other Conspiracy Theorist. I investigated Soren and got a "Not Alien" result. Doesn't clear him as town, but eliminates one faction.

Hence why GL is today's best lynch (and why I also suspected Wolfie until that claim)

My best guess is we're 7-2 and the scum team is GL and Soren.

Of course he picked out the obvtown (Wolfie) and shot NM who he knew was town to frame me. Also, I got a no result on you but that obviously doesn't matter since you said you hid. I figured that was my way of confirming your compulsiveness because if you were town you wouldn't hide so I'd clear you as not hiding which would conftown you.

That's a load of crap. Why would you investigate me when you only find aliens ? You just claimed I was a mafia compulsive hider.

I picked out a town read of mine in wolfs as I figured you would take out the confirmed town and leave the doubtful. I have confirmed wolf as town and confirmed you are scum.

Think about this.

I already investigated NM. Wolfie is obvtown.

If I investigate you and get a not mafia result that confirms you didn't hide which confirms you as town. Because mafia hider MUST hide.

Why would you get a not mafia result on me?

[Kop]

Of course he picked out the obvtown (Wolfie) and shot NM who he knew was town to frame me. Also, I got a no result on you but that obviously doesn't matter since you said you hid. I figured that was my way of confirming your compulsiveness because if you were town you wouldn't hide so I'd clear you as not hiding which would conftown you.

That's a load of crap. Why would you investigate me when you only find aliens ? You just claimed I was a mafia compulsive hider.

I picked out a town read of mine in wolfs as I figured you would take out the confirmed town and leave the doubtful. I have confirmed wolf as town and confirmed you are scum.

Think about this.

I already investigated NM. Wolfie is obvtown.

If I investigate you and get a not mafia result that confirms you didn't hide which confirms you as town. Because mafia hider MUST hide.

I didn't hide the day we lynched Vedith.

Or you are mafia compulsive hider. You had zero reason to hide otherwise.

I didn't have a reason, but in thinking more and more about it, I felt the idea was a viable one, it was the same odds as lynching the next day, 50/50.

So your defense is you are town who gambled on a 50/50?

When it was obvious Wolfie was town. Her claim was never going to be fake.

Obvious town then why didn't scum kill her then? Leaving NM in would be a better option doesn't post as much as wolfy and hammers where wolfy debates the ins and outs of what we get out of that lynch. Scum would have a better chance winning with NM in the game.

Busting out the why didn't scum kill her WIFOM.

Why WOULD scum kill her? If NM was scum and you were town you would have died. So why would scum leave alive obvtown?

Or did you forget that

If NM was scum and I hid behind him, I still die.

[Kop]

If I was the mafia compulsive hider.

But I'm not.

I don't hide, we have a 50 50 chance of lynching correctly. Me hiding is 50 50 I hide behind scum i die, scum win, I lynch town, scum win, I hide behind remaining town, lynch scum, if we lynch remaining scum town win. The odds are are the same if I do or don't hide.

[Kop]

It was a risk, that had its benefits and it had its negatives. I hold my hands up if I get the hide wrong. I don't see how wolfy is confirmed town, she was a town read in my eyes that is all. I had you as a town read that is all. But right now your are scum there is nothing going to convince me I'm wrong you are scum.

[Kop]

Or you are mafia compulsive hider. You had zero reason to hide otherwise.

I didn't have a reason, but in thinking more and more about it, I felt the idea was a viable one, it was the same odds as lynching the next day, 50/50.

So your defense is you are town who gambled on a 50/50?

When it was obvious Wolfie was town. Her claim was never going to be fake.

Obvious town then why didn't scum kill her then? Leaving NM in would be a better option doesn't post as much as wolfy and hammers where wolfy debates the ins and outs of what we get out of that lynch. Scum would have a better chance winning with NM in the game.

Also, if scum killed her you'd be dead too. So why did you hide behind the "obvious kill"?

The fact that you claim she is confirmed town, why is she still alive at end game? Scum ideally want people who are unconfirmed at lylo, not confirmed, to stand them a better chance at convincing others to lynch the unconfirmed town. Scum don't want this scenario of where there is one (well what you claim) confirmed town going against them or the other remaining townie, making it realisticly one vs one with a 50/50 chance they'll choose right. What scum want is two unconfirmed town, in order to have more influence over either one in making a bad decision.

Silverwolf has been left in for a reason, and that reason she isn't 100% confirmed town. You didn't want her dead, because of what she claimed, she enables you, you kill her, you lose whatever power you have. (Assuming I read correctly).

I took 2 gambles in this game, in order to achieve what my win con states, two gambles, which you will see at the end of the game, paid off for me (or town, assuming Wolfy does the correct thing in ordering your lynch). If I was scum, it would be more of a risk to gain town credit in a game where there is a chance of being multi ball and the person I claimed to have hidden behind is lynched, and is scum then that would show I lied. There was no 100% way of me knowing whether they are town or another faction. It's a gamble.

What I have taken in this game, is not a risk, if I hid behind NM and he is scum, I die and show as town, NM is lynched, I go out achieving what my role states, and hope town bring it home. However he was town, and I live to find scum, and another chance to utilize my role. I didn't do that the day we lynched Vedith, but I decided to use it last night, because I felt the gamble could either delight, or doom, and it's delighted me. It has confirmed you as scum, to me. I have put my points out there, for Wolfy to see, it's all in her hands.

[Kop]

You are really over complicating things. It's this simple.

Either you are town or you are scum.

If you were town a no hide is your best option to ensure we don't lose.

If you are scum you MUST kill NM because leaving him alive confirms you as scum because you cleared NM earlier in the game and whoever else (me or Wolfie) are town and know we are town.

So killing NM was your only option because you are compulsive hider. Your hide was completely safe because you know all three of us are town. But you are painting yourself as some gambling hero who saved the day by hiding when in reality it was just a bad play for town!you to make.

It wasn't bad play, that's what your painting it as. Your clutching at straws mate. I knew NM was town, because I hid behind him, I know Wolfy is town, I hid behind her, I know your scum, and you die today.

[Kop]

I didn't hide the day we lynched Vedith.

This is what I meant to quote

And it's easy to say after the fact

If I hid behind someone, it would have been town, and I would have announced it the day after. If I hid behind scum, I wouldn't be here to answer to you. It's not simple to answer that now it's simple I did not hide.

[Kop]

No, if I was scum, I'd announce it to buy more town cred to paint a more obvious picture that your scum ahead of me.

But I am not scum, and I'm not here for town credibility. I couldn't give a monkey about town cred, I am after scum deaths, and I will fight tooth and nail to put a nail in your coffin, because you are scum.

[Kop]

Where did I say that?

[Kop]

I said you were scum, you could be anything, I just know your not aligned with town.

[Kop]

I missed that post. Well it's safe to say, your an alien.

[Kop]

Meh, I'm actually rethinking that. It would make sense IF he was compulsive hider to hide behind me or you, kill NM, and then go after whoever he didn't hide behind and clear the other one to get them on his side.

However, 748 is one of the most town posts I've seen in a game in a long while. I have a hard time see scum!Kop make that post. But you make a decent point in 749 as well. I like Kop's 758 although not as much as 749.

Holy crap, I came into this thread with the intention to vote for Fro99er but I'm a little paranoid Kop is fooling me again.

I figured NK analysis would tell me one way or another but maybe not.

You both were townreads of mine and look town with this 1v1 and I really don't want to fuck up lylo again.

Damn it.

Trust me I am not fooling you, I've put my cards on the table and stated facts on Fro99er being scum.

[Kop]

Really enjoyed this. First time played as a hider.

[Kop]

Good job Kop, good job Wolfie!

I can imagine you hate me now haha

I bet you are going to try to get me lynched every game you play with me now

[Kop]

Good job Kop, good job Wolfie!

I can imagine you hate me now haha

I bet you are going to try to get me lynched every game you play with me now

Not at all. It was fun

I was getting frustrated in our back and forth. But it was good playing it. Good game mate.

Ily wolfy I never doubted you.

[Kop]

Well town should get the win for my ballsy play