Mini 1708: Mafia Café [Game Over!]

[Davsto]

@mod - I will be V/LA for a week or so, starting Saturday. I apologise for this, and hope it doesn't disrupt things.

Anyway, rvs and all is a thing, VOTE: Jake from State Farm because "First".

[Davsto]

Heh, this is a fast wagon. It's nice to see us getting out of RVS decently quickly and onto a more... thoughtful stage of the game, dare I say.

I'm gonna avoid jumping on because single post wagons hurt me in the soul, but I'm gonna UNVOTE: Jake from State Farm because he's not screaming out "Ah! I'm a scum!" to me, and we're sorta past RVS. Plus, no actual reaction from it, which kinda defeats the purpose of it existing there.

[Davsto]

I am confused as to the content of this post, Cheetory. Is this "mine" as in "yours"? Or have you rigged the thread with explosives?

Is it also possible that I am reading too far into this post?

(also did you get my note about V/LA in this post?)

[Davsto]

A Simple Plan

[1]

- Optilex, The_Jester, JohnnyFarrar, ChaosOmega

We have all become one. I for one welcome my three new life brethren

*distant screaming*

[Davsto]

1. that = the truth

Well I guess I can't handle that. Haha.

But seriously,

not because he replied something a bit elaborated to a short sentence specifically.

Doesn't read easily for me. Is there a chance you could word that differently so I could actually comment significantly on it? Thanks

[Davsto]

Dammit, sorry JF, I fucked up the quotes.

That quote (and question) was

actually

directed at Optilex.

[Davsto]

Thank you, I am sometimes incompetent at reading things worded a certain way.

Anyway, the way I see it is that ASP

is

acting a bit suspicious, but jumping on a wagon which already has four people on it from a single post is overkill and jumping to conclusions, so I'm staying off that wagon for now.

[Davsto]

Are you now getting defensive over him having a problem with you getting defensive?

VOTE: A Simple Plan

I said about a single post not being enough to make me vote. Never said anything about two.

You've just turned a reasonable enough question into Jester being suspicious. That is enough to make me consider you suspicious.

(for the record, it is now L-2, so be careful with votes to avoid a quickhammer)

[Davsto]

Hail.

HAIL.

[Davsto]

Yeh, to an extent I'm feeling that it's just slight panic at the beginning of the game,

but

I would like to put pressure on him. Of his 3 posts in the entire game, 2 are unnecessarily defensive and, in my eyes, a tad scummy. I'll see what happens, if he can convince me to change my vote.

[Davsto]

@stool

You see, the first post of Simple's wasn't that bad in my eyes, hence why I didn't vote. However, that second one pinged me considerably more. The wording of the reply, particularly the italicising of "problem", seems to me that he's attempting to make Jester seem suspicious for asking a reasonably fair question - but directing that

only

at Jester, ignoring the other people making the same comments.

[Davsto]

I see nothing wrong with simple's posts and dav's reasons are weak

Explain why you voted me - there are four other people that voted before that second post, and I waited for said post before I started to become suspicious enough to vote - how are my reasons any weaker than those who voted before?

[Davsto]

(Also the fact that you say my reasons are weak - despite being fairly explained - and use that as your

only

reason to vote me pings my hypocrisy amusement radar)

[Davsto]

I see nothing wrong with simple's posts and dav's reasons are weak

Explain why you voted me - there are four other people that voted before that second post, and I waited for said post before I started to become suspicious enough to vote - how are my reasons any weaker than those who voted before?

It's the fact that you voted after the 4 other people that pinged my radar. The others I took as pressure votes, yours put him unnecessarily at L-2 and looked like you were trying to slide your way onto the wagon with fake reasons.

(a) The extra vote does nothing to harm other than pressure, surely? If he gets to L-1 I'm gonna unvote for obvious reasons. An extra vote adds more pressure, and that can't be bad, surely?
(b) So what would you have said if I hadn't voted after stating considerable suspicion which escalated by his second post? Possibly that it was weird that I hadn't voted despite that and it felt like I was trying to get other people to vote on the wagon without having to do the work myself? This is leaning towards damned if I do, damned if I don't if you ask me.

[Davsto]

See why would you unvote at l-1? That implies your vote wasn't serious yet you have taken time to explain your vote so well. You don't explain a vote like that if it isn't serious...

It's serious, yes, I believe he's scum, but fuck if it's ever a good idea for a lynch within the first 24 hours of the damn day.

[Davsto]

Fair points, actually. Also, when people quickhammer, they're 90% likely to be scum, right? I think that's a thing.

Fuckit, I'm keeping this on until he successfully makes me less suspicious of him by his own accord. Plus, there's no one else I'm quite suspicious of now, so the vote would just be lying on the floor like a dead haddock, being useless.

[Davsto]

I mean I'm still a tad critical of letting quickhammers happen - look at my previous (and only before this) game, that quickhammer hardly helped town there - but I'll keep an open mind.

[Davsto]

@Henry: Problem is, you're missing a lot of key words in my text.

Single post, could be a single slip up. When he does it twice, and the second case is (imo) more severe, I feel it justifies a vote.

"believe" is the key word in the second - opinions can change. Just because I think he's scum now doesn't mean I'll still think that in four IRL days. Things can change, and some people haven't even said anything yet. While it's interesting to see what happens with A Simple Plan, and I can get reads from that, all of a sudden someone might barrel along being more scummy, and I'll probably start to question their actions and possibly even vote them.

Put simply, we have 13 IRL days before the deadline. Sure, a hammer vote can give us info too - and I'm tempted by keeping this vote on now after keeping an open mind about others' opinions - I don't want to throw away those 13 days just because I feel I have a scumread within 24 hours.

Do I have a scumread? Sure I do. But if you give me an option between A Simple Plan dying now or waiting 13 days and getting a load more info and then him dying, I think I know what I'd prefer.

[Davsto]

@Dav Is hypocrisy scummy?

Depends. In this situation, I personally don't think it was - largely, the comment was more to goad a more detailed explanation out to discuss.
However, in some situations it may be, but I'll leave that be unless the situation comes around.

As for the comment about stagnancy, I don't think that A Simple Plan is certainly gonna be the lynch today, but it was regarding the comments about "if you think he's scum, why do you care when he's lynched", in that I'd rather have him lynched after two weeks of discussion to get more reads - both general and potential associatives - than right now, this second, leaving us with little to go on tomorrow besides night actions.

[Davsto]

On one hand, I like the post above. Keep going with those kind of detailed posts, they're useful.
On the other hand... maybe I'm paranoid, but it reads rather OMGUSy to me. He's basically gone "right here are the reasons that three players who have voted me are scummy, and I'm gonna ignore the other players for now."

Dav, your argument about my defensive posts is nullified by these two posts which are quite defensive themselves, and come, conveniently enough after Jake has stated defensiveness to be a town-tell.

(A) Mine are defensive because I'm being attacked, so to speak - Jake is voting on me and trying to get me lynched, quite strongly. Your posts were

unnecessarily

defensive - as in, being quite strongly defensive when asked a simple question that didn't even bring your alignment into question. The second reply was also very defensive - maybe more justified, since it came with a vote, but "do you have a

problem

with that" just reads weirdly, and not something I'd imagine town saying.
(B) I don't actually agree that being defensive is a town tell or a scum tell all the time. For the most part, I'd consider it a null tell; both town and scum will defend themselves when attacked. However, sometimes context can make all the difference, and when you're defensive as you were, it reads oddly - being defensive before it's even slightly needed.

[Davsto]

@stool

You're right, but there you're counting chickens before they've hatched. I've been thinking that, if Simple flips scum, Jake should be considered as a partner, but making these assumptions before a flip is jumping the gun. But again, we'll see if ASP gets lynched because

it's L-1 now please state intent to hammer kthnx.

[Davsto]

Chaos is town.

VOTE: Monkey Saint

I like this vote.

(oh man i got to use my first gif how cool did i do well)

[Davsto]

No he's not

You don't think that making associative reads before actually finding out someone's alignment isn't jumping the gun a bit?

simple scum flip doesn't make me his partner

I never said that. You're twisting my words. Several words I used include "consider" and "thinking". It's a possibility to consider, not a certainty. I'm not gonna go "ayy let's all lynch Jake" if Simple flips scum.

[Davsto]

You don't think that making associative reads before actually finding out someone's alignment isn't jumping the gun a bit?

Absolutely it is but he did that and you said he was right.

He's not right

He's right as in other people may suspect that there was some coaching/seeding. As in, when he pointed it out, I agreed with him.

[Davsto]

If simple flips scum, which I don't think he will if he gets lynched, his flip has no bearing on my alignment at all.

If I were coaching you I'd subtly be telling you to hush right now 'cuz this looks crazy

But what if this is actually the secret coaching to tell Jake to stop *gasp*
(I'm like 99% joking please don't shoot me I'm too young to die)

[Davsto]

Yeh, I was gonna comment on Chaos' thing.

I have played one game before this. One. You're reading my meta from a single game where I was scum. That is pretty pathetic to use as evidence either for or against me being a particular alignment.

[Davsto]

Davsto in Post 102 you reference your one game to say how quick lynching hardly helps town, but when chaos references your one game in trying to read you it is "pathetic". Why is it okay for you to use your only game as an example but not okay for chaos to do it?

Because I've read other games on site and seen quick lynches which didn't help. I merely used mine as an example because I was there and saw the result myself, more clearly.
Meanwhile, unless Chaos has managed to find games which I haven't yet played, the meta is entirely based off a single game, in which I played as a single alignment.

Those are both fairly different situations.

[Davsto]

Yeh, I thought there had been a misinterpretation somewhere along the line. I am aware that sometimes my wording can be unclear.

[Davsto]

If he gets to L-1 I'm gonna unvote for obvious reasons

But again, we'll see if ASP gets lynched because it's L-1 now please state intent to hammer kthnx.

So earlier you said I pinged your hypocrisy radar

So mind explaining your hypocrisy?

If you'd been reading my posts, you'll notice in one of them I changed my mind in what I was going to do, after you said that a quickhammer can actually provide more info. I'm keeping an open mind to others' opinions, because I don't consider myself to be always right after having only played one game. Talking about open minds, do you have any scumread other than me? Or are you just gonna keep on twisting everything I say to be scummy still?

[Davsto]

If you read other games (which I totally don't believe you did), there is no way you come to the conclusion that they mainly come from scum. In my experience its actually the other way around.

And sure quick hammers don't really help town in most games because people go into future days allowing themselves to be manipulated by scum. People just assume the quick hammer has to be from scum and it totally derails useful conversation. In my experience its scum who is cheerleadingl the wagon goading people to vote without actually being on it or being on right before the quick hammer, like the last 2 spots.

Now sure I've seen exceptions, but the one constant is way more town quick hammer than scum

Well I'm sorry for not being entirely perfectly educated in every damn happening on this site after playing through one game and reading through a bunch of others. For God's sakes, you seem to be reading my ignorance as maliciousness. It's not.

[Davsto]

The problem with Chaos' meta read is he is supposedly getting a town read from me despite my only completed game being one within which I was scum. Basically, it's easy to twist that to what

you

want to read, and thus any data got from my meta, as it stands, should be disregarded, in my opinion.

[Davsto]

what are your thoughts on Chaos otherwise?

Meh, seems like a lurker. There's nothing I can read either way as he has posted nothing of substance either way. His vote on you with little explanation is meh, although I find it interesting how he drew attention to that himself. Basically, too little content posted makes me find him null.

And TheEMC looks like he's on V/LA at the moment, so don't worry about him yet. No idea how long said V/LA is for though, is there a way to find out?

[Davsto]

Unofficial votecount, since there hasn't been an official one since Page 3:
A Simple Plan [5] - Optilex, The_Jester, JohnnyFarrar, ChaosOmega, Davsto
Monkey Saint [1] - RadiantCowbells
The_Jester [1] - Monkey Saint
Davsto [3] - Marvin Maganoo, free stool sample, Jake from State Farm
Not Voting [1] - TheEMC, A Simple Plan, HenryCabotLodge

[Davsto]

*Not Voting [3], I mean

[Davsto]

Is a quickhammer anti-town? Sure, I still believe that. But because you made a very good point, I now agree that a quickhammer can provide info for us, hence me not then unvoting.

[Davsto]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6465585 - scum quickhammer

That's the only one I can specifically remember, sorry, there's a lot of games that I would have to go through again and I don't feel like doing that to support a point that is merely a tangent to the game.

[Davsto]

Yeah, that's a fair point. My vote was mostly for pressure, as it was very far from a lynch. I don't think I wanna pursue this anymore for the moment though.

UNVOTE:

I'm probably just being paranoid here, but does anyone else feel like this is trying to back out of a wagon where people were considered as being scum for voting on it?

[Davsto]

I like vote parking on scum.

10 points to RC

It reminds me of the game where I caught RC

The game I played with cowbells where I had him caught on page 1

I caught RadiantCowbells on less

It reminds me of that game where I endgamed town by getting Jake's slot lynched when he was a cop inno.

Hey had I not been forced out. That wouldn't happen. You got blessed with a bunch of idiots

Oh man, with this arguing you're like an old married couple.

[Davsto]

I mean, come on- he basically implies I'm scum if I stay on the wagon and I'm scum if I back out. That's pretty cheap.

Incorrect.

First, when was I ever going after people who were on the wagon? I never once said anything about people being sus for being on there. I myself am on there, for crying out loud. I was talking about other people - that is, people who are finding those on the wagon suspicious who

aren't

me.

Secondly, that's why I checked if it was me being paranoid. I was wondering if it was just my brain overreading things, and if anyone else had got that read from it.

I largely believe that the reasons you stated are your reasons. I just was pointing out a possible - if unlikely - other motivation for the unvote.

[Davsto]

Or maybe I just felt like I was paranoid. That's an option too.

[Davsto]

(also, @RadiantCowbells, feel free to answer the "EXPLAIN!" question about why you voted Monkey Saint or why you think ChaosOmega is town any time, thanks.)

[Davsto]

the power of voodoo

also, I'm voting scum right here.

who do

you do

do what

remind me of the babe

I SAW MY BABY

CRYING HARD AS BABY COULD CRY

WHAT COULD I DO

MY BABIES LOVE HAD GONE AND LEFT MY BABY BLUE NOBODY KNEW

WHAT KIND OF MAGIC SPELL TO USE.

SLIME AND SNAILS, PUPPY DOG TAILS, THUNDER AND LIGHTNING

then baby said

DANCE MAGIC DANCE MAGIC DANCE MAGIC DANCE MAGIC

PUT THAT MAGIC SPELL ON ME

SLAP THAT BABY MAKE HIM FREE

and I further would like to conjecture that the female parents of all persons present put army boots on their feet.

Okay, still avoiding the goddamn questions. It's not difficult to answer why you think Monkey is scum and Chaos is town.

Monkey Saint's still a better lynch but I want to see what we can get out of this first.

You're not voting the person who you think is the better lynch? That makes very little sense.

Dayvig shot at JohnnyFarrar

Okay, this is a terrible shot. Calling a bluff/gambit right here.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[Davsto]

He's more interested in trolling than playimg the game.

I disagree. Johnny has made a considerable effort to consider reasons why any player may be scum. So what if he has a laugh and a joke while he does it? He's done more to help find scum than you have.

[Davsto]

Meh, that's your opinion. Reading through his ISO, as well as the amusing jokey fluff, there are some actually pretty good points and arguments being made by him, towards a lot of players in the game.

Methinks you're just trying to discredit his opinions because he's shown suspicion of you.

[Davsto]

he hasn't shown suspicion of me

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7156384
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7157569
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7157901

They read as a bit of suspicion on you.

[Davsto]

Fuck, I missed that sentence. Sorry.

[Davsto]

Also, might as well list some posts where I'm pretty sure he's being helpful, and makes good points. Not saying they're true, but they're good points which show he's considering scum beyond who he's voting for.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7153143
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7153224
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7154224
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7156277
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7157751
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7157779
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7157846
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7160194 - this particularly is a great post, considering he was (supposedly) being dayvigged.

[Davsto]

Dammit Johnny, I missed that before posting. Oh well. Just something to consider anyways.

[Davsto]

Yeah, called gambit - as in, forcing out dying words to try and trip you up or something - on that vig from a mile away. Cowbell seemed pretty certain that Monkey was scum for some reason (that he still hasn't stated) and then switched to me because Monkey wasn't gonna be lynched, and then goes and vigs someone else? That seemed silly for any purpose other than gambit.
However that begs the question @RadiantCowbells:

why Johnny for the target of the gambit?

You already were suspicious of me/Monkey, why didn't you gambit one of us to confirm your suspicions? It just seems bizarre and irrational, although funnily enough that fits your current playstyle well enough. That's not a good thing.

[Davsto]

If you were adequately skilled to judge my play, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This is useless in every damn way.
"Lol, you can't read my mind, so I'm not gonna answer any questions, however much they may help town."
You're being incredibly anti-town and doing bizarre things for no reason whatsoever.

[Davsto]

Anyone who's played before with Cowbells, is he usually this irrational and anti-town in his town play?

[Davsto]

I have played with him a couple of times but the only game I remember is the most recent one where he was scum so that's not useful.

If he was scum do you honestly think he would be acting irrational and anti-town? I used to go after people like that but it never turned out good so now I just try to ignore them. I will say the general accepted rule with RC is never let him live to mylo/lylo

Oh, well that's just

great,

isn't it. As far as I care, if he's gonna act scummy and anti-town even as town, he might as well be treated as scum.
Also, I just saw a game where he was town and fakeclaimed to force another townie into being lynched. I don't want a game where someone who does that is alive, for all of our sakes.

[Davsto]

^ sums up my thoughts.

One of two possibilities:,
1) Cowbells is scum. Hence, we lynch.
2) Cowbells is a town player who is generally going to be unhelpful and scummy, screwing us over a lot by doing unhelpful things, not communicating with us, and seeming scummy. Hence, we should lynch.

One of these is true.
Both of these have the same conclusion.
Hence, my Cowbells vote stays.

[Davsto]

My issue is fencesitting between a policy lynch and a scum read.

Okay then, you provide a clear read for Cowbell's alignment.

Yeh.

Thought not.

[Davsto]

If he was scum do you honestly think he would be acting irrational and anti-town?

If, in regards to someone, you have to say "they're so anti-town they must be town", you should know that something is wrong and that player shouldn't be there to fuck up town.

If Cowbell is going to act in a way similar to scum, I say we treat him in a way similar to scum.

[Davsto]

My issue is fencesitting between a policy lynch and a scum read.

Okay then, you provide a clear read for Cowbell's alignment.

Yeh.

Thought not.

Inability to determine scum or town means he's null.

You don't Lynch null reads, you investigate or vig kill them.

You Lynch scum reads.

That concludes mafia 101 (checks to make sure we aren't in the newbie forum)

But that's the thing. I don't read him as null.

I read him as scum, but with a side chance of being town who is just playing irrational and anti-town

and neither of these are worth keeping alive.

[Davsto]

Also, give me a good reason why a town would want to act irrational and anti-town?

[Davsto]

Now supposedly Dav has scum meta for this behavior, once o verify that it will just be another thing to use to show he's scum

Okay, now also find an example of me using this logic as town.

You can't.

Because I haven't got a complete game of me as town.

It's the same reason that ChaosOmega's "he reads differently" comment was disregarded - without both a town meta and a scum meta to compare, meta reads mean fuckall.

In fact, I don't believe meta reads in the slightest anyway. Don't you think that there's a chance that Cowbell, if scum, is purposefully playing different to his meta of games with you to make you think this?

[Davsto]

As far as I care, Cowbells has no goddamn reason to act this way if he is town.

On the other hand, acting this way as scum allows him to avoid suspicion by WIFOM.

[Davsto]

My issue is fencesitting between a policy lynch and a scum read.

Okay then, you provide a clear read for Cowbell's alignment.

Yeh.

Thought not.

So not clear read = scum?

But that's the thing. I don't read him as null.

I read him as scum, but with a side chance of being town who is just playing irrational and anti-town

and neither of these are worth keeping alive.

This just gives you an excuse to stop scumhunting. If you want someone lynched regardless of alignment, trying to figure out their alignment isn't important anymore. You have reads on anyone else besides RC?

Urm, isn't this scumhunting? As far as I care, Cowbells

is

likely scum, since town has no reason to play that way.

But overall:
my read on Simple Plan still stands;
Jake's narrow-mindedness and determindness to control the game on his own, rather than working with town, and defensiveness of those who I read as scummy makes me a bit suspicious;
Jester's quick drawing-out of the Simple Plan vote reads to me as an attempt to avoid being considered to be suspicious for being on Simple's lynch for weak reasons;
your heel-face turn from supporting me to being suspicious of me when other people became suspicious of me, as well as your unexplained vote on Simple, read like attempts to go with the flow of wagons to avoid suspicion;
Monkey - this is associative btw but worth mentioning for future consideration - could be a partner with Cowbell, since the initial vote with refusal to explain could be a bussing attempt.

Johnny, in his attempts to look for multiple scum, as well as the very-townie post he made when he thought he had been dayvigged, make me think he is almost certainly town.

HenryCabotLodge, Marvin Maganoo and Optilex are null because of their lack of posting and interaction with others.

[Davsto]

So you're suspicious of half the people you're playing with?

I never said I was suspicious of them, particularly; I just noted that these were things I had picked up.

And is it really a surprise there is a decent number of people I am sus of? There are 3 scum in this game, at least I'm looking for more than one unlike some people.

Mentions every player except TheEMC (who hasn't posted yet, so whatever) and free stool sample.

Jesus, there are 12 goddamn players to list. Is it even slightly substantial that I missed two of them, one of which has a nonpresence?

Consider them null reads I forgot to add, thanks.

Maybe a vague town lean on stool due to being the only sane player in regards to the lynching of Cowbells, and for noticing those things that other people didn't early on.

[Davsto]

Am I really doing this?

I believe you are. You state things as objective fact, and tend to counter things with the words "No it isn't" without providing a reason why. That's why I went "screw this, this is why Johnny is being helpful" and provided a bunch of posts to support that, because you're used to people going with it. Thought I'd shake things up a bit.

how exactly am I working against the town?

I worded this badly - I am saying you're not working with the other players. You're working on your own, entirely disregarding opinions that don't fit with your own, isolating yourself from other players for a decent part, in terms of reads.

you don't even believe that RC is scum.

I believe there is a decent chance that RC will flip scum, as I feel he is using his previous experience with you to manipulate you by playing oddly, in a way you can't read at all.

I can give you 1 very good reason why town would want to troll on day 1. Maybe he is a PR and he wants to make sure that 1. he isn't lynched but more importantly 2. he isn't NK'd

Congratulations, you've just given him a reason for him to give when questioned, so that he won't struggle to give a reason when asked tomorrow.

[Davsto]

Bleh, this argument is pointless, it's gonna dissolve into insults being thrown any minute, and you're already anchored in your read on me so what's the point?

I am withdrawing from this discussion from Jake.

[Davsto]

Okay, let's see if I can spot anything.

@RadiantCowbells: You seemed certain that Monkey Saint was scum. Why the vote switch from me to him? And, again, why didn't you perform the (pretty effective) gambit on Johnny, rather than using it to help sway your opinion - and convince other people - to vote your suspicions?

@Marvin: Your vote doesn't seem questionable, and there hasn't been enough posts to spot anything questionable, so nothing for you.

@stool: You have shown decent suspicion of other people, and nothing beyond your original suspicion of me - and yet your vote is still parked on me. Why?

@ChaosOmega: What was with the non-explained vote on Simple when everyone was sus with him, and now voting on me when everyone is sus of me, with a sudden swing from "probably not scum" to voting? Basically, why are you going with the flow for each vote rather than considering any scum outside of me?

[Davsto]

Yeh, but your previous attempt at meta-ing me on a single game turned out - from your view - "wrong".

How do you know the same couldn't be the case here?

[Davsto]

Is that L-1? Yay.

Before someone quickhammers before stating intent, I claim Doctor.

[Davsto]

Basically, since I think almost everyone scumreads Davsto, we should let the scum do our work for us in the event that we're wrong on Dav. If Dav survives N1, we either bought the doctor a night action (and we can tell him who to protect) or we're lynching near-confirmed scum D2.

I dislike this rationale. Surely scum could just use this to their advantage, kill someone else and then get a free day of people lynching a town power role over scum?

[Davsto]

crumb?

[Davsto]

Oh, right, that thing, I vaguely remember that.

I'm afraid the answer to that is no.

[Davsto]

Basically, since I think almost everyone scumreads Davsto, we should let the scum do our work for us in the event that we're wrong on Dav. If Dav survives N1, we either bought the doctor a night action (and we can tell him who to protect) or we're lynching near-confirmed scum D2.

I dislike this rationale. Surely scum could just use this to their advantage, kill someone else and then get a free day of people lynching a town power role over scum?

Except that's a risky strategy for scum.

Meh, it's risky, but as far as I see it'd be worth scum trying. If they fail to get a lynch on me based on that, they just NK me the night after.

[Davsto]

I mean, I'm saying this in full awareness that - from basically everyone's point of view - if I am not nightkilled tonight lynching me tomorrow is the best option. I'm just pointing out who suggested this first for it to be kept in mind.

Getting into a WIFOM discussion before said WIFOM actually happens seems impractical, to say the least.

[Davsto]

I'll, uh, try I guess. Fingers crossed.

[Davsto]

Agreed. Despite seeming fairly certain that Jake was scum, he suddenly found it good to put a vote on Jester, just after someone else did.

[Davsto]

Johnny vs jake commentary is town vs town

This. Johnny and Jake are my two biggest town reads right now, and honestly I'd be surprised if they weren't for anyone else.

[Davsto]

Wait. People are only talking about being okay with voting on monkey? No one has actually done so yet? What the hell? If you're okay with a vote then why didn't you vote?

Fair point.
VOTE: Monkey Saint
I'm still a bit shaky, but he's done some questionable things, and I don't find anything

that

bad with Jester. This is subject to change though.

[Davsto]

Not seeing the Monkey vote either ftr

Most players are cautious of my claim, which is fair enough considering how I have acted this day so far.
He seemed to think it was perfect and true, and his sudden trust reads like he's mafia, buddying up to a town Power Role.
Also, I still find bizarre the sudden change from seeming to think that Jake was the scum to jumping on the Jester wagon, but that's not that sus, just something I'm a bit meh on.

[Davsto]

Hm.

Apparently I've not been reading carefully enough.

I (mis)interpreted:

Jake and Henry, why do you think Davsto is lying? You guys are that confident in your scumreads? Well Jake obviously not enought to leave your vote.

Throwing suspicion at a claimed role before they can prove themselves? Might be one of the scummiest things I've seen all game.

and

We should leave this Davsto wagon alone for today and not even speak of it further.

as him overly believing my claim, since I found it a bit odd that he finds it scummy that someone is a bit suspicious of someone who claimed - even though one of said people removed me from L-1 as quickly as he could after my claim

[Davsto]

I mean really it just strikes me as the commonest of sense to not vote the claimed doctor, so him hopping off didn't freak me out

Yeh, I agree, I'm quite sus of Jester (although I'm not voting on him because I'd feel stupid for voting on him for doing something similar to what I'd already done), and agree with Monkey's vote on him. What I have confusion with is why he found it scummy that Jake and Henry still found me suspicious despite the claim, even though the former unvoted me.

[Davsto]

Now let's jump on the WIFOM train here; if The_Jester saw Davsto making a case like that got him run up to L-1, why would he make a case just like it? As scum, I don't see any reason to do that.

And, using the same logic, I could say it would be silly for me, if I were scum, to do the same thing that you were suspicious of me for last game. Point is?

There's something I just picked up on.

I have not played with Davsto, yet he called me out for a game a million years ago where my fakeclaim only caused an issue because Crowley retracted it. I don't think that's coming from him seeing as searching my games would put that midway through the second page and it's highly unlikely that he chose THAT of all games to read, so it's instead likely him having discussed in scum QT with someone who was in that game, such as Jake, who ALSO has reasons to immediately bring me up and has a grudge against me so it would seem likely that he would have discussed my play with his scumbuddies. He also jumped off even though that Doc claim was unbelievably terrible, as did Monkey, and I see an edge to Davs play that makes me think that some of these votes were possibly meant to distance.

I'm not switching votes at this point, period. This is scum.

Oh man, you have more than one game where you do that? I didn't go that far through your games, I was fairly sure I picked on fairly early on.

[Davsto]

Here we go, found it, about halfway down Page 1, http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7053256

When looking for stuff like this, I believe you get a more accurate result by picking a random one from the first page.

NOTE:

I just noticed whilst looking for it again that the game hasn't actually ended. However, since my comment about it wasn't substantive - I merely stated

what

happened in that game, I don't think it is a violation of any rules.

[Davsto]

NOTE: I just noticed whilst looking for it again that the game hasn't actually ended. However, since my comment about it wasn't substantive - I merely stated what happened in that game, I don't think it is a violation of any rules.

This is against the rules.

This is a reminder to not reference anything more than activity levels of other players playing this game with regard to other ongoing games.

I am sorry about this. It will not happen again.

[Davsto]

Actually, I've changed my mind on Jester. He had only had one post before which showed suspicion of me - yet apparently me claiming made him so much more suspicious of me that he voted for me, and put me back to L-1?
VOTE: The_Jester
I don't buy that.

[Davsto]

I see an edge to Davs play that makes me think that some of these votes were possibly meant to distance.

I'm presuming you're talking about my vote on Monkey Saint. I think you're reading too far into that.

And as for the whole Jake thing - he was basically the main person advocating for my lynch all day, it seems just bizarre for a scum to do to a partner.

You're looking for associative reads in a place where there are none.

[Davsto]

Davsto seems to be putting a lot of stock in Radiant Cowbells' meta. For one thing, he thinks meta reads are stupid and, further, that his own meta doesn't matter. What makes Radiant Cowbells different?

Because I wasn't using Cowbells' meta to establish him being town or mafia. I was merely using his meta as an example to show that Cowbells' play is commonly quite irrational and anti-town, which is why I didn't like him at the time.

Thankfully, he's now gone into proper posting, as far as I can see. Hasn't done any troll-y fluff posts, and has generally communicated his thoughts with the rest of us. I believe we should move on from that point, since Cowbells' now-more-sensible play has rendered it moot, and he has generally made good points which would make sense from a town point of view (even if I disagree with them).

[Davsto]

ARISTOOOOO

I was

really

tempted to post in this thread and was just about to when Cheetory had already flipped so I didn't get to use my acting skills

My first scum win though!

I mean it's kinda a stretch to call it "my win" because I fucked up and got lynched D1 but ya know

[Davsto]

I was gonna be all "Oh man, I can't believe you didn't realise it was fitz, I thought it was super obvious. I was really panicky in the dead thread, all like "shit, they're onto him!""

[Davsto]

Sure, show the scum thread, you can see... fuckall from me because I got lyncheded D1.

I'm really bad as scum

[Davsto]

Now look at all the pretty colours on my wiki page!

[Davsto]

I'm kinda sad about not joining in the whole "lol fitz was scum" but I wasn't sure if the whole "posting after death but when the ending hammer has happened" thing was allowed or not. I'll keep this in mind next time, since it seems like it's acceptable.

[Davsto]

I would never have strategically placed out, FYI.

I was absolutely sick and tired of fighting with you and it was ruining the game for me.

How about we stop this line of conversation now before it escalates

Just my two pence.

[Davsto]

But yeh, in terms of actual scumplay I did atrociously, but I think I did a decent job of laying down false associatives. Idk, gonna work on the improvement of actual play.

Second Ari being pretty damn great in this.

[Davsto]

also everyone pre-in for my first modded game Pun Mafia only two pre-in spaces left!!!

(Self promotion ftw)

[Davsto]

also everyone pre-in for my first modded game Pun Mafia only two pre-in spaces left!!!

(Self promotion ftw)

Been there, done that

Oh hush you

[Davsto]

To be fair though, I was intentionally creating links between the two of us, including my vote on you Whoch was intended to appear like bussing. At the time, I knew I was screwed, so I just went abput laying false associatives and distancing from RC.