Touhou UPick 4 - [Aborted]

[Feysal]

First!

VOTE: Pieguyn

[Feysal]

That vote count... looks like Notscience and Pieguyn are hated, Kilgamayan is seriously unpopular, and MuffinMan is loved by the gods.

[Feysal]

Finished reading at last, and none too soon looks like.

I think I'm basically an innocent child because if I were scum, the game would literally already be over.

While this topic has already been extensively discussed by Bork and others, I have to say I hated this statement. MuffinMan seems to imagine himself indestructible here, which is of course incorrect, since he should expect other players to have abilities to counter his, and lack of factional kill does not equal no kills. This saw also cuts both ways, since if he truly were indestructible the game would be over either way, since he could single-handedly lynch everyone else and win the game for his team. I see no reason to town read him for this, and anyone who does is not thinking clearly.

Consider what would happen when the town gets smaller and MuffinMan remains alive. With nine players remaining he becomes unlynchable, since if he permanently requires four extra votes to lynch, eight players cannot do it, not with single votes anyway. With seven players remaining he could lynch anyone and everyone by himself. Does anyone think such an overpowered role could be in the game unless other players had the means to stop him?

Fortunately this is not something we need to worry about now. If he is town, there is no way scum can afford not to deal with him, so we can simply wait and see.

If there is anyone in the game I would town read based on role alone, it would be Kilgamayan. It would be too cruel to have a scum role that lynches itself with five players left, provided of course those three automatic votes are permanent.

About the fight between Pieguyn and Sakura Hana, while I have to admit that it gives me some satisfaction to see Pieguyn deal with the same sort of thing I had to in our last game, she did say she had no interest in pushing Sakura Hana, which she ignored. I have to wonder though what was the point of saying that? If you want to get a genuine reaction from someone, you should not tell them that. The rest of that post was pretty accusatory, but that line just takes the edge off. As for Sakura Hana, I don't expect scum would claim they would become confirmed tomorrow, so she is probably town.

I'm not sure I understand what MuffinMan has against Bork, although I have my doubts about him. I would like to see him talk about something other than MuffinMan. There was also that part about reading Pieguyn based on tone, and I would not presume to do that after last game, not even as a baseline.

I want everyone to claim how many

Day-use

cards they have. I don't care about night-cards.

Four.

UNVOTE:

More later, going to sleep now.

[Feysal]

Okay, what happened here?

I'm rather annoyed at Notscience right now. I thought I knew how he plays by now, but seeing him isolate himself in an ivory tower with his cabal and attack someone for daring to question him is something new. It is so overt it is not even suspicious, but it is definitely not pro-town either. What the hell do you think you are doing?

I also find it odd that Pieguyn obediently votes with Notscience and Sakura Hana, when last I heard in thread she was wary of them both. Maybe something happened in their neighborhood, but since I cannot see it I have no idea how I should feel about that, and I don't like it. At least Sakura Hana is probably town in that group, but I would prefer to make my own judgement.

What are your reasons for doubting me?

Your focus on MuffinMan. You have spent several posts talking about him and his role, but little else. You said you got a town read on Sakura Hana from it which is fine, but since then you've said you did not want to talk about it any more and that you were sick of it. So talk about something else, what is stopping you? I don't see why it would be productive to question other people on how they feel about you because of it.

Also this is you projecting your experiences onto my approach. Why?

Whose experience should I trust if not my own? I don't agree that it would be wise to town read Pieguyn based on tone, not when she is obviously capable of projecting a town tone as scum.

There's also the thing whether his quadvoter abilities have LyLo clause, worst case scenario he just becomes unlynchable, but he can still lose the game for town if the lynch goes wrong.

Fair enough. I did not consider the fact that MuffinMan could be endgamed as town. I'm used to thinking that scum wins when nothing can stop them from killing everyone else, but this game is different.

Just waiting for Feysal and being sad that there's no party.

Waiting for what exactly? I don't think I missed a question from you or anything.

[Feysal]

Feysal: Is !science town or scum? Is pieguy town or scum?

Notscience is a black hole, I have no read on him. I am leaning town on Pieguyn, mostly for questioning why she is being town read.

Would you like to talk about it?

You've seen firsthand the type of mayhem I like to ensue as scum, why does this not bother you?

I actually had to search your past games to figure out what you meant, I completely forgot you were in Disney UPick. Now that I do remember, your situation in that game was strikingly similar to this game, only the three of you were hydra heads instead of neighbors. I think the only thing you did that game was your gambit though, and while I thought it was too bold to be from scum, it got you cornered in the end. Almost all of your posts were from Sakura Hana. I am confused why you would choose to play like this and remind me of that game?

Feysal, can you please provide a readslist? I would like to be given reason to vote elsewhere.

You could not ask for anything more time consuming, could you? I tried to get baseline reads on everyone, and it was hardly worth the lost sleep. I'll have to figure out the rest later.

Notscience - I don't know what to think. It would be very bold of him to play like this as scum, but I don't know why he would do it as town either.
Pieguyn - Leaning town, but I keep having second thoughts. I do get town feelings from some of her posts, but I have misread her before.
Sakura Hana - Probable town due to claim of being confirmed tomorrow and for her aggressive early play.
MuffinMan - Leaning town. I have not paid close attention, but I see him questioning and trying to sort out people, which is good enough for now.
Shadoweh - Weak town, if for nothing else then for the early conviction in her reads. I get her approach and most of her recent reads.
Sky_Paladin - Probable town. I can understand his thought process about Pieguyn and Sakura Hana, though I disagree with parts of it.
Relentless - Probable town for attitude and actively trying to sort players. I can also see his frustration at being wagoned.
Kagami - Leaning town. I saw one town tell I thought reasonable, and I have no problems with what she has said or done.
Bork - Suspicious for being defensive, and I keep waiting to see his thoughts on the rest of the game.
Thug - Leaning scum. I don't like his cases for shutting down discussion, and ignoring Sakura Hana saying she could be confirmed.
Kilgamayan - Leaning town. Being so hated would make her poor scum, though I have no clear feelings about her play.

[Feysal]

Why did it not bother you that I'm playing in a way similarly disruptive?

I quite simply forgot about that game and you being in that hydra. When I commented on your play I could only remember the games you were town in, and when you asked me about it I stared at your post for a minute wondering what the hell you were talking about. It did not dawn on me until I searched your topics, though it is coming back to me now.

Now, about that Kagami town tell I mentioned, it was this post:

I like Kilga so far, but as an FYI: if I die and he stops being hated as a result, he's scum. It will be pretty clear why.

Why would scum give a conditional read on someone that depends on them being dead? They could for town credit, but I don't think I've seen it, as most people would not consider it a town tell anyway. I do.

Apart from that, I get what Kagami means by burden of proficiency, since I did well in our last game. But prodding me for more content is unlikely to work, since my time and energy are limited. My activity should pick up in time when the game slows down some more, as I expect it will.

Townreads go something like: The_Relentless > Sakura Hana > Kilgermans > zMuffinMan > Bork > Sky P.

I spotted this earlier while reading your posts. You mentioned having a scum read on Sky_Paladin twice, yet here he is last in your town list. What changed?

[Feysal]

I like Thugkuddums so far.

What for? His activity may be understandable if he has been ill, but his accusations against Sakura Hana and Shadoweh for shutting down discussion were reaching at best. I also don't like how he completely ignored Sakura Hana claiming she would be confirmed tomorrow. I could imagine scum false claiming delayed innocent child, but Sakura Hana was not under that kind of pressure, and it would make no sense to lie today only to be caught tomorrow. I don't see Thug considering any of this.

I thought the only thing it would have really been reasonable to town read me for was my reaction to Sakura.

I also wondered what you meant, but I would not have guessed it was that. I thought your approach was strange, making a case only to immediately back off without pushing it. You don't give room to your scum reads, you give them rope, so I get why Sakura Hana considered it scumpainting. I find it weird how what you apparently considered your most town moment I found the most suspicious.

Bottom line: Explain why you're equivocating your personal "unwillingness to read pie via tone because of last game" to anything about me in

this

game in regard to the viability/believability of how I scumhunt/townhunt.

I had to check the meaning of equivocate from a dictionary, and I don't think it means what you think it does.

This argument has gotten ridiculous. I don't expect you to have an identical approach to mine, but I would expect it to make sense. I don't think it is reasonable to town read someone for behavior they were able to fake as scum, and being partners should have given you an excellent position from which to see her play.

VOTE: Bork

I'm expecting, but don't know, Chocola to flip scum. I'm expecting, but don't know, Relentless to flip scum. But if I could get a flip on Relentless first it would help me to decide if I could trust my neighbour or not - and to submit night actions accordingly.

I am Ran and Chocola is Chen. It's bad for me when Chen dies :/

From your posts I gather that your reasons for suspecting Relentless are at least in part dependent on Chocola being scum, but Chocola is independently suspicious. Would it not make more sense to lynch Chocola first then? I get that you have reason to want your neighbor to live, but this seems backwards to me.

[Feysal]

Can each of you explain why you're voting for the other to someone that wasn't a part of the argument?

My initial read was for his long focus on MuffinMan at the expense of the rest of the game, in particular his questions whether he was suspicious for it. That seemed like effort wasted on nothing productive, though to be fair his content has improved somewhat. I don't know why he got so hung up on what I said about his read on Pieguyn, I thought it was a minor point at first. Now there is also his approach to reading me. He was scum in our last game and I remembered him saying something about my play when I skimmed the scum PT afterwards. After his last post I found it.

I've been pretending to be obtuse about Feysal's scumhunting style (he tends to townread people whose internal thoughts mirror his)

Comparing the thoughts of other players to my own is part of how I read people. It has been longer than I have been on this site. I think I first started consciously doing it in my old off site games because I reasoned that thoughts that were similar to my own were likely to come from the same viewpoint, but by now it has become second nature. Given that Bork apparently knows I do this, I don't get why he is asking me about projecting my thoughts on his play.

[Feysal]

Feysal: I'm afraid I still can't see what you mean. Can you cite specific examples in links to posts?

I'm not quite sure what you want examples of. If you mean Bork questioning me for projecting my thoughts on his play, there are posts #306, #480 and #716.

Well I don't know when it happened, all I know is that it happened.

Are you referring to when Sakura Hana used her spellcard with this, or something else?

Why do you think people were town reading Sakura Hana for her spellcard? I don't remember anyone saying anything like it, only that they were accepting her claim at face value. Are you sure you are not confusing her with Pieguyn, since some people did talk about whether the spellcard she used made her town?

[Feysal]

My 2 phrase summation of his playstyle would be

- dogmatic
- rules of thumb

he reminds me a little of Jake, but more wordy.

I have been called wordy by more players than I can remember. Your first two phrases are new to me though.

Anyway, you seem to have misunderstood which game I'm using as reference for how to read Pieguyn, and Bork. Our last game together was Micro 537: EoSD where I was fooled by Pieguyn, which ended just before this one started.

I'm mostly looking for something related to "his approach to reading me". I thought it was something other than what you're linking to there, but maybe I'm wrong? If it actually is, though, I think it would be kind of silly to publicly admit how one approaches a certain user when one is scum and then turn around and apply that exact same strategy in another game soon after, because obviously it's going to be fresh in said user's mind.

Those posts were pretty much what I meant. I agree it is weird to use that strategy on me again, however fact is he is doing it, and I don't see why he would question me on something he knows I do as town. He mentioned that only in the scum PT, so it did not become public until the game was over.

Apart from Bork and possibly Thug I don't have other suspects. I have seen Gaiden mentioned often, and I would not mind his lynch either, I don't remember him doing anything.