Touhou UPick 4 - [Aborted]

[pieguyn]

Heaven's Punishment "Star of David"
Scarlet Sign "Red the Nightless Castle"

[pieguyn]

vote: zmuffin

I have a serious town read on noddy, a serious scum read on zmuffin, and I just massacred everyone with my two spell cards. I do believe I have this game solved. please sheep accordingly.

in all seriousness, I probably won't be around until this evening.

[pieguyn]

Katsuki can be town.

2 DOWN, 11 TO GO

[pieguyn]

I have 3 total day-use cards (I just used 2 of them). the second one actually does something really really cool, which I could probably go ahead and claim right now but I'd rather not at this juncture.

vote: Sakura Hana

p-edit: lol. never mind that, then.

[pieguyn]

Because, there's most likely 4 scum in 16p game, muffin needing 4 extra votes at 9 to lynch means he requires 13 votes to die, so if muffin's scum he requires at least 1 scum to be busing for him to die, so it's literally impossible for him to be scum, but pie decided to vote him anyway.

you're aware my vote on him wasn't serious, correct?

I can see why you'd think this if you were taking my post 100% literally, but I don't think it's hard to spot once you realize it wasn't; I recommend you look at it again in context with zmuffin's 52.

followup to muffin question:

I have a serious town read on noddy, a serious scum read on zmuffin

was this part fluff/meta (i know the part i didn't quote was) or is this relevant in any non-meta way?

yes

[pieguyn]

I honestly don't like any of {Sakura, noddy, or bork} so far.

Sakura's recent posts have been mostly fine, but her opening came off really forced. I didn't like either of these posts:

dat gambler's fallacy

Are you even gonna try to read me, or are you just gonna base your choice off mere gambler's fallacy (or are you scum who already knows im town?)
Why didnt you vote for your mentioned 2 suspects?

it was pretty obvious zmuffin wasn't being serious here. what she did reminds me of what I used to have a tendency to do as scum: come out ultra serious in the early game and misinterpret stuff as serious when it obviously wasn't. there is also that, if she thought zmuffin's -4 was a strong enough reason to read him as town that I'm scum for voting him, the parenthetical feels out of place.

(ftr my gut is pinging really hard pie's scum right now, but im waiting to get my results first before i decide how to proceed)

I hated this: I do not believe she would at this point supposedly have had a massive gut scum read on me, as she's claiming here. I think this is a scum tell because we just got out of a game where I p much rekt her as scum (<3), and she had a gut scum read on me the last two days which she had a lot of trouble explaining/reasoning out. I think she was deliberately attempting to emulate her behavior in that game by declaring a "gut" scumread on me, and so she thought having a strong gutread on me from the get go might be how she would go about pushing me early as town if she thought I might be scum - when in reality this isn't how I expect she'd actually read me as town. I would expect she'd be a lot more tentative about forming an early read on me/want to feel me out more first if she thought to push me early; she historically has tended to give me room even when she has had a scum read on me (even in EOSD where she was convinced I was scum she kinda sorta backed off near the end and at least admitted Feysal/Spiffeh cross bussing each other would make sense even though she was sure I was scum, which is indicative of the kind of leeway we give each other when town).

now that she explained the reasoning behind it (see my previous post), I feel more strongly about this than I did when I first saw it. I _really_ don't think she would have had such a major reaction to my posts when her major reason was something as weak as voting zmuffin when he had -4 votes/was unlynchable.

a more minor point, I thought 23 looked forced too, but that's splitting hairs and I wouldn't put any stock in it. all of this said, I'd like to see how she responds to this/my last post and am not interested in pushing there for the time being.


noddy: is there a reason you flat-out ignored me declaring a town read on you in my first post? I was kinda sorta deliberately being semi-obtuse there to see what people would do, and I guess I could see it if you figured it wasn't serious right away, but that was in part a reaction test that you failed. I would have expected town-you to see the town read and at least twitch over it (even if it looked like I was joking, I don't think it was 100% obvious), especially given how much paranoia you displayed in our PT (if this was facetious, correct me). meanwhile you-scum would know me town reading you would be absolutely necessary for you to win the game and thus stay the fuck away from it (what it looked like you were doing here).

bork: do you disagree that zmuffin's role is highly unlikely to come from scum, and what did you like about Sakura's posts?

Relentless' game looks different from his wallzy scum game he played the last UPick, but I don't think it necessarily means anything in terms of alignment. outside of this (and zmuffin), I have no other town reads.

[pieguyn]

actually Kilga might also be town.

and I don't like Sky's entrance either, it feels like a neutral post that was specifically designed not to add anything to the game; the one question he did ask, there's no real stance there. I could see it coming from a scum attempting to enter the game without being sure how to do it POV, whereas I'd expect town early game would take more of a hard stance either way (ex. explicitly calling Relentless out for not having a case).

[pieguyn]

That post came out incoherent.

I thought of commenting because I didn't think i had done anything alignment indicative thus far. But I am playing my cards close to the chest this game and don't care that I failed the reaction test.

it came out fine the first time :p

did said "town read" on you not give you any idea at all about my alignment? I would expect you'd be freaking the fuck out at potentially having to deal with me being scum in a game with you _again_.

do you have any reads so far (I can see the benefit in playing some things close, withholding reads is not one of them)?

[pieguyn]

I think I wanna

vote: Sky Palladium

for now, though I am admittedly biased.

[pieguyn]

it was pretty obvious zmuffin wasn't being serious here

please don't speak for me

gomen, gomen. any scum reads so far?

[pieguyn]

No.

fyi if this is you saying you don't plan to elaborate on all of your reads this game we are going to have issues unless there's some other way I'll be able to town read you this game and not worry about it. if it's you saying you don't have any reads, carry on (although I feel this game is content-heavy enough that it shouldn't be hard to at least get some reads).

It does because i realized the -4 made him town after i made that post...

Well either way your scumread on me doesn't matter since i'll become conf town tomorrow, so im just gonna ignore the rest of that blatantly scumpainting post and keep voting you.

can we please not? I literally said I was giving you room to show me I was wrong before pushing you (so no, I wasn't scum painting, I was explicitly doing the opposite i.e. giving you room to be town) and I do not want another persona game.

[pieguyn]

yes

I'm assuming you don't want to elaborate?

I'd expect town early game would take more of a hard stance either way (ex. explicitly calling Relentless out for not having a case).

This seems to contrast strongly against your reasoning in your post this page against Sakura. Here, you're pinging me for not 'taking a hard stance', whereas your poking Sakura because she's 'too hard'. We're less than 24 hours in to day one so I, personally, can't see how somebody is 'too hard' or 'too weak' when half the player base has yet to post, so I'm wondering how you might come to this.

the read on Sakura is a meta read based specifically on what I would have expected her to do and I alluded to this in my post (it was off explicitly because it was her reading me in particular). I wouldn't (and don't) take issue with her reading anyone else strongly out the gate.

[pieguyn]

If you're going to do this shit, I'm replacing out.

I've made it obvious I wanted to give you room to be town so we could work together, and I can't deal with another game of this after P4.

[pieguyn]

all of this said, I'd like to see how she responds to this/my last post and am not interested in pushing there for the time being.

I literally fucking said I'm not interested in pushing you right now, i.e. I _was giving you time to be town in case I was misreading your entrance_.

did you just not fucking read my post?

[pieguyn]

Sakura's recent posts have been mostly fine,

but her opening came off really forced.

Sakura, read this.

[pieguyn]

you're not reading my posts fully - I very clearly am considering you could be town/that my interpretation of your posts was wrong, else I wouldn't have posted that nor backed off at the end. just because I call you scum early doesn't mean I won't see you as town if my read is wrong (and given I basically instacalled you scum and was right in the last UPick, yeah I will point it out if I see something that looks off).

if this is going to be another vitriolic-ass game where one of us keeps talking past the other, let me know now so I can just leave.

[pieguyn]

Well okay fine you've only hated my entrance, but still that doesn't explain the huge ammounts of scumpainting done in there if you were town instead of just... trying to read me?

it wasn't "scumpainting". I wanted your response to it explicitly so that I _could_ read you.

how else would you expect me to figure it out if my reasoning is wrong?

[pieguyn]

if this is going to be another vitriolic-ass game where one of us keeps talking past the other, let me know now so I can just leave.

...

=/

While i know you can pull this sort of AtE as scum, it's still cheap......

I can definitely pull this kind of ATE as scum, yeah.

I'm upset bc I have no fucking idea what I can do to show you you're just splitting hairs about my posts. I thought your entrance came off forced, yeah, but reads aren't black-and-white. it was possible I could have just been (gasp) entirely wrong about your entrance. and on the off chance I was, I didn't want to push you because I knew that would just serve to lead into a giant shitfight if you wound up being town, and then you assumed I was "scumpainting" you and now it's leading to one anyway.

my intention there was to point out why I didn't like your entrance, without attempting to pressure you and (hopefully) making it obvious I was unsure about my interpretation of your posts and wanted to wait to see what you did before I went any further with it. if I failed in that regard, oh well, but that's where I was coming from.

can you try to read my posts again keeping this in mind?

p-edit: walk me through why?

[pieguyn]

and wanted to wait to see what you did before I went any further with it

this, in addition to seeing your response to my post, is how I intended to "just try to read you".

wanting to form a better read on someone doesn't mean I won't post what I initially think when I do think it.

[pieguyn]

I think it turns out that she mistook my "at this point in time" clause too -- what I meant was "this is the apparent voting situation (the current voting situation [at this point in time])" (as if the power gamestate could change on subsequent days, even further murking the picture of "does X role make sense as town or scum")

does zmuffin clarifying the -4 is, in fact, permanent, affect this?

back when it was just the -4 I could have seen it as a scum role if it was either 1. temporary or if I squint 2. there's a lot of killing roles in the setup (scum that would essentially have to die via kill as opposed to lynch), but after the 4x vote/perma-gladiate which he'd be practically guaranteed to win due to said 4x vote I would think that would, in fact, be broken as a scum role even if there's a killing role or something that could pop up in later days that could fuck with it. I'm not sure I'm getting your point so walk me through it if I'm missing something.

[pieguyn]

FWIW I find pie's argument here scummy not just because Sakura seems obvtown but it also reminds me of the way pie got in the metal game thingy near the end. That's probably false equivalence but still. I am going to suggest pie calm the heck down and leave Sakura alone instead of threatening to replace out because she's looking at you, geez. Kilga, considering this is role madness what's wrong with playing the role game early when there's noting better to do? Right now I'm in a very Sakura is townie so stomp on anyone throwing shade that way kinda mood. Borfguy seems super town. There's another page since I started writing so i might as well post and read as i go.

this was mostly because in a recent game we played we had this huge shitfight over whether to lynch vs. leash the claimed SK and we had had various other shitfights leading up to it in that game based on each of us getting weirded out on the other, her faking a scum read on me for reactions, disagreeing on reads in general, etc. and I do not want a repeat of that; I need us to work this out ASAP rather than dragging it out and having it continue the whole game.

if it wasn't obvious, I accept Sakura claiming she'll be conftown tomorrow at face value, and ya her reaction was town outside of that.

Without knowing what else is in the game? Not really. And if he's scum I'm assuming he's lying about *some* aspect of his role

I don't know why you're making this about muffin; this isn't really much about muffin

"unlimited gladiator" is confirmable, though? I'm still not sure I'm seeing your point so I'll come back to this tomorrow when I have sleep.

I'm surprised you wouldn't be aware that I tend to want zmuffin to be town/want to otherwise catch him when he's scum, but outside of that, the same argument would apply regardless of who it is with the role.

[pieguyn]

More important than do you think I'm wrong: do you think I'm scummy for feeling this way? You are implying you do in 91

yes - what you're doing here looks similar to the kind of thing I'd do if I saw someone getting cleared/widely town read and wanted to stop it. specifically I take issue with you claiming things like, "if he's scum he's lying about some aspect of his role" and "we haven't seen the gladiator in action" when in reality this is unreasonable. it makes no sense for someone to make up something like that most of the time, and even if they are there isn't a point in discussing it until it actually comes up.

I'm fully aware that there may be some way to counter it if it's a scum role, but it didn't read like you were employing critical thinking to figure out how his role would make sense as either alignment. I would expect a town approach to go something like "I think X and Y might be potential counters to zmuffin's role as a scum role" (which tbh was my approach when I first saw the claim although I kept, and am keeping, silent about it) or "I can think of a few ways scum-zmuffin would lie about his claim here" (this is what Kilga did); on the other hand, what you said was akin to "not a town claim because he could be lying". there is no depth of thought here and it's something I'd expect scum to be more likely to do than town.

supposing zmuffin is scum, how do you think he could be lying about what he's claimed and what strategic value would he gain from it? (although as I write this I just thought of something, but it's a minor point and still wouldn't fully explain how his role would function as a scum role.)

the Sakura read was a separate issue from the zmuffin read, which was compounded bc your approach to noddy in EOSD was to come out the gate intending to town read him and I thought you might have been doing the same thing here. I think the posts you quoted were fakeable, but I don't have a problem with your explanation for it.

I want to say pie is null but trying to sort Sakura fast is probably pie being town and stuff.

read in progress here but tonewise I agree

do you think "tone" is a good reason to town read me?

[pieguyn]

I have bork and shadoweh for town, biased toward town on thugkiddums for reasons outside of play.

why on bork?

I'm also concerned that the Pie's reason for voting is 'bias' because that bias is not explained, while the contrast between the temp-vote on Sakura and the vote on me is not.

the "bias" is that I have a bunch of experience with all of noddy/Sakura/bork whereas I only have the two games with you.

[pieguyn]

The conversation between the two of them looks entirely fabricated to me. I despise appeals to emotion. I'm also concerned that the Pie's reason for voting is 'bias' because that bias is not explained, while the contrast between the temp-vote on Sakura and the vote on me is not.

can you elaborate more on which parts look fabricated and why?

(ftr I'm asking bc this could potentially be an improvement over your first post)

[pieguyn]

@GuyInFreezer

Are you Yuyuko?

I was gonna post Border of Extacy here but FG told me I couldn't. how boring :<

[pieguyn]

I haven't read anything since my last post. #swag

vote: The Relentless

I'll do shit tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

I also find it odd that Pieguyn obediently votes with Notscience and Sakura Hana, when last I heard in thread she was wary of them both. Maybe something happened in their neighborhood, but since I cannot see it I have no idea how I should feel about that, and I don't like it. At least Sakura Hana is probably town in that group, but I would prefer to make my own judgement.

it was 100% for reactions; I had a minor town read on Relentless and I agree his reaction to it looked town.

I'm pretty sure I've said in-thread I think Sakura is town?

I might not get to this until tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

i am rethinking my approach to the bork/zmuffin situation, btw

certain events have me thinking about the setup a bit and i don't think my initial assessment was correct although i haven't figured out if/how it affects my reads. i'll have more to say when i have more of a chance to sit down with this game

[pieguyn]

Whose experience should I trust if not my own? I don't agree that it would be wise to town read Pieguyn based on tone, not when she is obviously capable of projecting a town tone as scum.

also ftr this is why i asked

i don't know how you intend to read me based on tone after that game. this is more the case when afaict a large part of your reasoning for town reading me in Forest Fire was for posts similar to the ones i faked D2 of that game. correct me if i'm wrong or if there is some nuance to this i'm missing

[pieguyn]

either it has enough counters that it's not a very strong role (which, imo, would just be poor design and something i wouldn't expect from fakegod) and is therefore... pointless to put in the game as a scum role? or it has 2 maybe 3 "counters" in multivoters which aren't even really hard counters and i auto-win if i get rid of them, barring shenanigans (which is also horrible design, especially since scum probably do have a way of offing players outside of lynches in this game).

ftr this is why my initial reaction was to call zmuffin's role a town role. you don't put a scum role where it's like "herp derp, you have to use one of your X limited abilities to get rid of this guy, or you run out of ways to kill it and autolose the game".

I was unsure if I was reading too much into it, though.

[pieguyn]

also I'm the one who added Sakura, but I'm not claiming how.

[pieguyn]

I'm deferring that until I'm actually caught up with the game/everyone in the hood comments on it.

[pieguyn]

I lied, I'll be around tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

1) Why would you assume anything about how I would read you based on a scum-scum game where I made no legitimate effort to actually do that.
2) I fucking hate the argument that "I played pretty well in X game, you should be totally weirded the fuck out by me in this game because of that". Otherwise I have no idea what you're saying -- Forest Fire (me town you town) happened before EoSD (me scum you scum) so what are you talking about?

Like everyone is "capable of projecting a town tone as scum" to some degree. That doesn't just mean "welp scumhunting is worthless let's just fucking pack up and random lynch". I'm obviously being hyperbolic but is your argument seriously that "I think I tonally played well in EoSD therefore you couldn't possibly legitimately think to townread me for that reason here?"

I think virtually everything I've done this game I could fake, though. it'd be one thing if I was obviously town, it's another thing entirely if I've done nothing town and you town read me anyway (I find when I'm scum I tend to be too quick to town read people I really wouldn't be town reading or otherwise want to town read them early in order to get on their good side early and/or gain town credit for being among the first to spot them as town when they invariably look town later, a la the armchair meta read for "level of engagement" on noddy right at the opening of EOSD which I also conveniently used on you).

there's basically only one thing I've done in this game I feel like it'd be reasonable to town read. can you walk me through specifically which posts you liked?

also pie: ns read up to this point thx

if I'm being perfectly honest, I have a fair amount of paranoia with regard to him. I've been treating him as town, and intend to until I have compelling reason not to, for trust purposes and bc lolSDM, and I like his really strong enthusiasm this game. but objectively speaking he would either realize he'd be excited about the game or be genuinely excited about it as scum and it's gone on for long enough without much else going on readswise I'm starting to worry he's using it as a reason to hide behind to avoid having to generate content (I know he tends to spam the game with non-game related content as scum). there are some reads here and there, but at first glance none of them looked hard to fake and I have not yet bothered to try and read in between the lines enough to figure out if it's more likely to come from him as town.

[pieguyn]

When did Pie use his ability to draw in Sakura? When did it take effect? Why did you target Sakura?

If the answer to the first question of "was it a prearranged spat?" is no, why hide that fact? Wouldn't Notty have commented?
If its yes, what were you hoping to achieve?

Should I join and find out for my self?

me inviting Sakura was 99% so I could troll the hell out of noddy in the PT.

any more details must remain ~private~, except for maybe Shadoweh would be interested in looking at it when it becomes public.

[pieguyn]

I'm fairly sure based on what I've seen there's a notable difference even if it's not as obvious as it was in PVZ (for example).

[pieguyn]

I am hoping chocola dies to the 9 day rule

yep

I was gonna say something but I didn't want to increase the chance of her popping up and resetting the timer.

[pieguyn]

Blame FakeGod for restricting choices to Windoze 2hu, I was all set to give a PC-98 list this time around and I absolutely would've listed Elly just for you. <3

also I thought about doing something different this game but the only character I really would have wanted outside of Remi was Kurumi and that was the end of that :<

[pieguyn]

I'm also going to echo sentiments about notscience not really doing much in thread. It's like, I don't really care about how much you say that you're doing in your neighbourhood I don't see why you can't share your thoughts with the rest of the players. It's a lot easier to tailor your content towards a small group (4 or however many people are in the neighbourhood) as opposed to the whole thread and it's also less likely that you'll be called out on whatever opinions you make since there's less variety in the people's thoughts.
Yeah, whatever.

are you aware no one who thinks this has actually voted or pushed for his lynch this game?

[pieguyn]

And that matters to me why?

do you think it means anything in terms of his alignment or whether he's a viable lynch at this point? serious question and not facetious - I'm asking because voting someone who appears to be scum read by a lot of people with no votes is a fairly common scum tactic (preempting town flow) and it's the only scum read you gave in your post.

[pieguyn]

i don't know if i want to lynch bork

i don't want to lynch Relentless

with any luck i might be around tonight. who knows?!

[pieguyn]

{Feysal, Chocola, GIF} imo

I'm ambivalent on basically all of {noddy, bork, Gaiden, Sky, Katsuki} and will make it a point to sort through it later.

[pieguyn]

Dunno about chocola but rest are horribly wrong.

/post of the day

why do you town read Feysal?

why do you specifically mention my post, as opposed to disagreeing with these reads in general?

@Relentless: I see your question and am responding to it (along with writing up some other thoughts), I'm just responding to this first.

[pieguyn]

is there a reason you didn't bother to post your Feysal read until now, rather than commenting on it back when, e.g. Kagami was pushing him?

[pieguyn]

rather, anyone who was continuing to push him after he had provided content (it occurred to me Kagami backed off of him then)

[pieguyn]

@pieguyn: why's GIF scum? I've actually been feeling him as the towniest of the lurkers/spamposters

I actually feel relatively OK about GIF on reread, tbh.

most of my issues with him were based on how ridiculously passive he was being, particularly with regard to the Kagami and bork reads, but I can think of enough alternate explanations for it that I don't take issue with it.

[pieguyn]

can someone who's town reading Sky walk me through it in more depth? Sky is almost impossible for me to read cos in the last UPick I thought most of what he said made no sense and then when he was scum most of what he said came off fairly reasonable.

from my memory of Katsuki, he considers it suboptimal scum play to not actively do anything benefiting a scum wincon. I think the way he's playing (which on a surface level is his town meta) would be 100% fakeable, and the kind of thing I would expect someone to fake given the opportunity to do so given how easily fakeable it is, but I don't know if it's consistent with his mindset about playing scum.

unvote:

[pieguyn]

can you walk me through your read on Sky in more depth?

I don't like Skypal continuing to treat my voteswitch from ED1 as a point despite a) it being explained in my posts, b) me asking him what the problem with it was since it didn't seem like he was actually reading my posts (he didn't respond), c) it not ever being explained how the switch back and forth is scummy

point a here is something that I think he's doing a lot of in general this game, btw. when I actually sit and read through his wall posts, I see a lot of commenting on stuff that's been explained already. is this normal for him (I remember him doing it a lot last game?

[pieguyn]

if it's normal for him it's not something that's stuck out to me about his play, but I should note I haven't played much on the site the cross-site people are from lately. my impression of town!Sky is that it takes a while to convince him he's wrong about something but he WILL actually argue with you about it.

what are your thoughts on 439, if you've read it in-depth?

Scrolling back up, there's no 'major reaction' from Sakura that I can see. Sakura has been approaching a few players at this point, while Pie has entirely focused on the players in his neighbourhood + Muffin. Pie then adds, "I thought 23 looked forced too, but that's splitting hairs and I wouldn't put any stock in it" but if you don't put any stock in it, don't mention it.

I take issue with this, in conjunction with the next point, more or less bc I think it should have been obvious what I was referring to when I said Sakura had a "major reaction". she had literally said things a la 47 ("the only thing making me think pie could be town") and 107 (which was pretty conclusive in terms of reads). moreover, several other people had pointed out what she did looked like an overreaction. that he would miss this comes off either disingenuous, which would fall in similar vein to what you're claiming about his push on you, or exceptionally tone-deaf, which I don't think is implausible.

the last sentence read more like a throwaway excuse than him actually believing what he was saying.

105 - 111 is the bit that looked fabricated to me. I feel that Pie went straight to drama llama with his I'll-replace-out comment. On the re-read, Sakura looks better - she looks to me that she genuinely doesn't care what Pie thinks and notes that Pie cares a lot about what she thinks. Notice me sempai etc. I am happy with one part of Pie's #223 on Bork, but it came amidst pressure on Bork from Muffin and that diminishes it's value somewhat.

and this felt contradictory to the previous point. if someone claims someone is reacting strongly to something, and gets upset over it, the obvious conclusion is that they were upset because of how they reacted - he ignores this and doesn't take into account what I had previously said about Sakura's scum read on me in the game thread.

and the other reason I'm meh on this as an angle is - as I was hinting at - that I had already explained why I had reacted strongly to Shadoweh (what had happened the previous game between me and Sakura where we kept fighting with each other all game), and he didn't look like he was factoring this in anywhere.

I don't think there's any strategic value to pushing me-scum over Sakura-scum or both of us being town as scum, and looking at it again, I also think scum would be unlikely on a general level to have their first instinct be to call bullshit on the me/Sakura interactions; there is strategic value in pushing both as scum, but the bit about the neighborhoods showed enough depth of thought and was consistent enough that I didn't have a problem with it.

So out of your list of four, I would list Relentless and Gaiden as my current preferred lynches for this phase. In regards to Pie/Sakuya/Notty I can't disagree they are creating content although the content value is ??? and it's difficult to say which, if any, is scum and needs to be shot. IMO Sakuya is the most town out of the three so therefore she must be scum, right? I feel like Pie is 'in charge' of the group and that Notty is a passenger. 'A passenger' is exactly the scum MO. That's the one I would lynch.

then in this post, he entirely dropped the read on me for unrelated reasons, despite his previous concerns with me not really being resolved - I didn't respond to them and I don't know what in my posts would have led him to otherwise rethink his approach to me here.

I take issue with his other reads-list posts in general for the same reason; I don't feel like there's much internal consistency from one reads list to the next. it reads to me like he's just pushing reads as he comes up with them, rather than sticking to them and only moving off given a good reason (which is what I remember him doing in the last UPick as town and what you seem to be agreeing with).

[pieguyn]

I will highlight again that Relentlesses activity is *solely* focused around players who have voted for him, or complaining that other players who have 'done less' (eg chocolate, fey) aren't getting more votes.
This looks like scum MO to me, which is why I'm voting presently.

I'd like to know why you think the bit about him popping up when me/noddy/Sakura all wagoned him is _more_ likely to come from scum; it's the kind of thing that I would expect to prompt a response regardless of alignment. it also implies it was a serious wagon, which pretty obviously isn't the case (he was in no danger of being lynched and so would not have any reason to reactively change his strategy in response to it, and I've said I've been reading him as town the whole time).

[pieguyn]

I kind of just did in replying to Feysal, if that helps. So how are you reading Sky right now, incomprehensibly or does he make sense to you? You cut me with a huge wall post on Sky Pal but I'm gonna ask anyways. I do find it interesting that Relentless is reading him the opposite of me right now, but I still disagree with him.

most of what he's posted this time around seems fairly reasonable on the surface level, and not at all like the "hard push the shit out of everything" Sky I remember from the last UPick. I also think, in general, he's letting go of his reads way too easily, ex. he went from his reads 324 to mostly dropping the majority of them without much explanation (ex. me/Kilga/Fey without much questioning of us in between). some specific things, on the other hand, I take issue with (ex. the read on me), but show enough depth of thought that I think it'd be unlikely to come from scum (I did like his reasoning for why he first picked up on the me/Sakura interactions and why he first thought it was disingenuous).

It seems like you only have an issue because I'm pressuring Relentless. Admittedly he is your town read.

I have some beans to spill and I will share them soon. I'm also interested in seeing Muffins response to my prior questions.

that is not what I said at all, actually.

I take issue with it bc you're trying to push that Relentless is only doing shit due to the wagon on him and this is more likely to come from scum (this is what I took from your posts, correct me if I'm wrong), when in reality the wagon on him was just for reactions as opposed to people seriously scum reading him - and thus, he-scum would have no reason to feel threatened enough by it to alter his playstyle. you're pushing an argument based on assumptions that come off unreasonable at best.

[pieguyn]

Re: Fey;
Their latest post is an improvement and I'm happy.

can you explain this in more detail? I thought Feysal's reads list when he did post it was meh, and I don't see what you (or Kagami) found town about it.

[pieguyn]

I think virtually everything I've done this game I could fake, though.

I don't, and early in the game when I townread someone like I often to with NS I'm ok with questioning that, but I'm finding it really hard to believe that you legitimately think you're just nigh unreadable otheriwse. What's the "one thing you did that you think you could be townread for"?

91 was the post I liked. It was authoritarian and aggressive, and I hate to say it but in EoSD you were pretty much neither until way late in the game when you were under pressure (and even then you pretty much did it in a microcosm of things like the Ranger lynch)

I don't know how else to describe it - it's tone. It was early in the game and that's very often the best I'm gonna have.

that isn't really what I'm saying. at its core, my argument is you're town reading me for posts that weren't actually town, and thus you were making up the read (which there is scum motivation for doing as I laid out in a previous post). I thought the only thing it would have really been reasonable to town read me for was my reaction to Sakura.

I think I could have made 91 as scum, but I don't have a problem with you town reading me for it.

can you walk me through your read on noddy in more depth?

[pieguyn]

I'd support a Chocola lynch, I didn't want to say anything initially for fear it'd affect what he did when he got back but I don't buy that he would lurk for this long without so much as any game-related posts whatsoever; my inclination is that he's just scum and fears he can't come up with any passable content when he pops in.

[pieguyn]

ftr I'm still conflicted on noddy but I probably wouldn't lynch him today.

if I'm discounting bork, next up on the POE list would be some combination of {Gaiden, Shadoweh, Kilga}.

[pieguyn]

vote: Chocola

subject to change when I get back to a pc. in the meantime, I remember thinking thdg was town on a reread (sorting Shadoweh early makes sense as town but could run the risk of alienating him from one of the major people he knows as scum, and I don't see anything outside of that in terms of appeasement, either) but IDK if I'm reading too much into it.

[pieguyn]

i might be around tomorrow

[pieguyn]

Pieguy. No questions for me?

hai ffery

i've hardly read anything since my last post, so not at this point. i imagine i will when i've read fully

[pieguyn]

ya I probably won't have enough time to get to this. I might be able to catch up this afternoon, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I saw a kagami asking me if I was still looking in {gaiden, Shadoweh, Kilga}. this is true as I still haven't been able to read anything.

from what I *very* briefly skimmed, I could lynch bork. maybe ffery but I'd rather leave that till later (i.e. after some time has passed _and_ I've actually caught up) in case she town tells.

[pieguyn]

I'm still 100% behind lynching tdhgdflgdfhs and that hasn't changed.

would also be fine with lynching this

[pieguyn]

Pie is also gonig to be downgraded to danish if she doesn't catch up soon!

is this a scum read or just you poking fun at me for taking forever to catch up?

if it's a scum read, warning you now: don't even start with this, or it'll be a repeat of swagwars, except a billion times worse because I'm actually town. continue at your own risk

[pieguyn]

OK thank god lol

[pieguyn]

Fery

pieguy makes me nervous. :/

[pieguyn]

Ugh, OK.

I promise I'll at least be able to read everything and at least post something when I get back off of work and get home (like in 3 hours). I might not have enough time to do anything drastic, though (my fault for taking too long).

[pieguyn]

I'm not lynching Feysal btw.

[pieguyn]

.
.
.

100% serious, what I was about to say was that I was fairly sure bork was scum. so, in my heart I was right, but I don't get any credit for it. :<:<

be back in half an hour

[pieguyn]

I still feel really lost.

I'm starting here: all of {zmuffin, Sakura, Feysal, GIF} are town.

people of interest are {Gaiden, ffery, Kagami, Sky, thdg}.

ffery, are you around? if you are, there's a bunch of stuff I wanna ask and I think it'd be easier to do it in real time. please promise you'll go easy on me in terms of pressure if you wanna ask me anything bc I'm in a really awful mood right now, I'll try to do the same.

[pieguyn]

Also, as a note 667 about Sky_Paladin is kinda weird. Yes, in the prior game there was a huge conflict between the two slots, but I'm not seeing the same kind of play from SP at ALL in this game. I half-expected this game to follow a similar path when I started reading the thread, but that's not what happened. So why ask for others to read Sky_Paladin here? There's a fair bit of what I feel is nitpickery going on regarding Sky_Paladin's posts later on.

1. do you think this means anything in terms of Sky's alignment in this game? his play being really different from the last (town) game is mostly what I was hoping to get out of that conversation, I thought he might have been scum for it.

the point I was trying to make in 674 was that Sky was pushing that Sakura didn't have a "strong reaction" to my initial push when in reality this is entirely unreasonable, aka it read like a disingenuous argument - the further point about my reaction backed this up because I had explained the reasoning for it in the game thread. can you walk me through in more detail how this was "nitpicking"? even in hindsight I don't agree and Relentless had mentioned he does this as scum.

the most town thing I remember from him was the stuff about the neighborhood, but IDK if it's fakeable.

2. what is your current Shadoweh read?

[pieguyn]

mixed. I liked her approach to trying to figure out chocola. Not much else has struck me as town mindset though.

what do you think of 1166?

I'm not sure if I see the first line as likely to be coming from scum, since scum would be aware noddy was hated (and thus that thdg's vote had nothing to do with it). I also bias towards the bits about her role being more likely to come from town. in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I tend to think scum wouldn't be as likely to ask about stuff like that in thread.

[pieguyn]

i.e. I'm assuming bork was pre-planning to some extent that he'd quicklynch someone if he was being lynched and I'm guessing someone would have brought up at some point that noddy would have been essentially a free lynch due to being hated+8 votes.

[pieguyn]

I'm extremely annoyed about all the efforts to stitch me together with bork, eithar as his scum partner or as a better lynch. I don't think all of those efforts come from an uninformed place.

who is this referring to?

[pieguyn]

also I wanted to ask what your read on me at this point is.

[pieguyn]

i.e. I'm assuming bork was pre-planning to some extent that he'd quicklynch someone if he was being lynched and I'm guessing someone would have brought up at some point that noddy would have been essentially a free lynch due to being hated+8 votes.

He didn't pre-plan very carefully then.

elaborate?

[pieguyn]

kagami, sakura, zmuffin. I was misremembering Shadoweh as also involved in that, but she wasn't.

I'm townreading sakura and zmuffin. So, kagami catches my attention.

I'm in conspiracy theory land about bork's ability to stop her daycard when she happens to be threatening to daykill him.

I'm wondering about two things wrt Kagami. the first one was her read on me yesterday where she said I was "a little off", which I thought looked more like she was following consensus, but it's probably reasonable. my major issue, though, was the Feysal push right at the end. when I saw GIF's post where he said I was horribly wrong about him, my reaction was along the lines of "OK, Feysal is absolutely off the table today". questioning it came across as a very unusual course of action, but it's something I might have done if I was scum since it's relatively easy to question role info in a role madness game (as ... bork did with zmuffin's role).

then I wonder if scum Kagami would have bothered with that as opposed to just playing along with the bork wagon.

that reminds me, I also wanted to ask about your GIF read. I thought his potshot at me felt town (enough to make me second guess the read on him) since I know he does stuff like that a lot as town and I don't remember him making posts like that as scum, and I was wondering why you were interpreting it differently.

[pieguyn]

If I were scum with bork, I'd have put feysal at L-4 and let zmm act as claimed rather than let him suicide.

can you walk me through why you weren't willing to take GIF's role info at face value in more detail? that is the reaction I would have expected.

[pieguyn]

btw ffery this is the game I'm using as a baseline for scum Sky: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=61277

I'd like your thoughts on it at some point if you get the time to but if not dw about it. his play there came off a lot more reasonable and less aggressive, and when I was in the game I figured he had just improved his play from UPick 3 in terms of getting in shitfights with everyone. his play here seems like it's the same as this, but I don't know if I'm missing any difference.

[pieguyn]

I mentioned it twice with exactly the intent of probing whether it was role info. GiF said nothing, so I took it as a read.

I was taking you mentioning it as confirmation it was indeed role info.

either way Feysal looks pretty town off of bork interactions.

[pieguyn]

This pretty well sums up my thoughts about GiF.

GiF - one comment about pieguy's scum list (don't know about chocola but feysal/gif were wrong). Deadlined voted chocola at zMuffin's behest. It's hard to fault this, but I kinda want to because GiF usually puts more thought, if not more in-thread words, into lynch decisions. Even when he doesn't explain, I can usually trace the thought process. The only possible thought process is deadline lurker lynch, which strikes me as oddly lazy given his lack of scumhunting prior to this. Still his comments about there being a reason for this approach and he'll do more on day 2 strikes me as reason enough to leave him be today. he knows precisely the impression his play has left, and as scum he's quite capable of looking extremely town with not much more effort than he's displayed here.

I'm leaning town on his slot, pending him actually doing stuff tomorrow.

so I assume this means you didn't specifically read his comment towards me either way.

didn't you say in UPick 2 trolling/playfulness is more indicative of town GIF?

[pieguyn]

agree on thdg.

[pieguyn]

Kagami, if you've factored bork interactions into your reads, can I get an updated read on me?

[pieguyn]

o. makes sense.

can I get it tomorrow, then?

[pieguyn]

I exist again, for now. This post was also supposed to happen around 18 hours ago. Oh well.

thdg what do you think about a Feysal lynch

who would you vote given that notsci being lynched today isn't all that likely?

I swear my responses are timely.
Anyway kneejerk reaction says that I'd go with the Feysal lynch not because I find him to be particularly scummy but because I don't think that the people on his wagon are scummy.
Like, reading his posts didn't really sway me either way so I'd probably go with it if it came down to it for consolidation.

more evidence to support the thdg-bork team? I probably wouldn't take issue with it, but just commenting "people on wagon X are better" without anything specific making him think this (i.e. I dislike people X and Y on the ffery lynch and/or bork lynch) is a really shallow thought process and imo more likely to come from scum.

To be honest, I am also kind of frustrated that nobody wants to even bother looking at Sakura Hana with me because they used some random spellcard on the first page but whatever. Something spectacular had better happen D2. Whatever, it's almost 2am so I'm going to go to sleep and look at things tomorrow.

as for the rest of the post, I didn't like it, but this in particular came off as disingenuous. I'm p sure someone (zmuffin?) already said it, but I think it reads more like scum stretching to find a reason to pretend to be angry/indigated about a read. not to mention, he didn't even mention Sakura at all after he backed off of her up to the point where he posted this (if he was really this frustrated about it, he sure as hell wasn't doing anything to show it).

it kinda reminds me of what I did re: Nati in UPick 1, actually.

[pieguyn]

Who does borkums actually think is scum?

T: {muffin, sakura,

relentless

,

sky_paladin

,

kilga

}
N: {gaiden, shadoweh (liked demeanor dealing with muffin, didn't like what kilga pointed out), chalupa, thdgkfmkklfdkvjdflvjkdlfjvklwf (could possibly move up on reread), GIF (could move down; he hasn't done anything)
S: {

ns

,

feysal

}

in progress: pie, kagami

whatever: katsuki

well for starters, a simplified "I think x is scum for reasons a,b,c" would be helpful since it seems like you're reading feysal as scum for projecting or something? and noddy scum for... not interacting with you and calling you scum? there may be other reasons but it's hard to follow the progression on these reads. I know you've talked to them or asked people's opinions of them but I don't see where the scum reads form and why

My stronger reads in the group were:
you - I thought your attempts to engage the majority of the playerlist really early and make judgments about those reads looked really town. I think the way you engaged me looked more inquisitive than an attempt to throw me off balance (see touhou upick 2 where I picked you out as scum instantly for that and proceeded to not get you lynched for the rest of the game)
sakura - I explained this one earlier

weaker reads:

relentless - I liked the push on NS and the frustration with the resistance he's getting seems genuine
sky_paladin: 203 in particular just pinged me as really town (also potential negative connection between him and both of ns/GIF due to constant confusing them)
kilga: eh, just overall like the feel. super candid thought process

contested reads I'm still trying to form:
pie: want a bonfide response to 623
kagami: was trying to figure out why kagami would have the following progression:
1) kagami: "hey I have reason to believe I know how many spellcards scum likely have"
2) me: I have a shitload
3) kagami: I think bork is town
4) kagami: I think scum probably have a high number of cards
I'm curious for demonstrable evidence of what she can do, so I'm gonna let her do whatever she she says she can do and proceed with that info

I would expect at least one scum in bork's town list, especially given his town reads consisted primarily of SMers, which I find odd as they're the people in this player list he has the least experience with; I'd expect most people when town, if town reading the majority of the people from another site, to have at least some paranoia/feeling what they're picking up on might be playstyle related and to want to question the reads in more depth. moreover, based on the reasoning he was using, Relentless and Kilga are more likely than Sky.

this is in part based on my very recent experience as scum partners with him, where we hard defended each other all game for somewhat nebulous reasons. but, I find the reads list odd regardless due to the SMers thing.

[pieguyn]

who here knows Kilga's bussing meta?

[pieguyn]

pie was supposed to be doing something but didnt and apparently isn't scumreading bork, despite him claiming scum?

that was a joke >.>

I'm just going to go ahead and claim this bc I don't see any reason not to: I tried to shoot bork last night and something fucked with me. in retrospect, scum was obviously going to do something to fuck with it, but I figured I might as well go ahead and try and shoot him anyway bc due to how it works and an assumption I was making I probably wouldn't ever get a better use for it over the course of the game (there was also the off chance scum just wouldn't have bothered for WIFOM purposes).

be back when I get home from work

[pieguyn]

what the fuck is going on

[pieguyn]

also I want a full claim from Gaiden. like, right the fuck now.

[pieguyn]

was yea ra chs hymmnos yor en chs fwal fwal yor exec drone hymmnos enter yor
ma num ra flip 0x1011001001 yor enter ar hymmnos ar ciel
exec enter AR_TONELICO.

FITFUL NIGHTMARE: 1

VOTE: SXTLHGAIDEN

[pieguyn]

so I get nothing for sitting there CTRL+F5'ing the thread so I could blitz a lynch on Gaiden, and it wouldn't have mattered anyway bc lol 4 scum.

*ties bork and softly kisses Remi with him watching*

[pieguyn]

Pie I wish we had hooked up and lynched everyone alive together with my multivote.

hahahahahaha

mfw we would have instawon if we did this

[pieguyn]

also I called scum in bork's town list so fucking hard. I want half credit :<

[pieguyn]

I'm gonna proudly say that if I was left alive, I would've wrecked havoc.

whyyyy that Feysal read. I backed off cos I thought you were softing masons with him

[pieguyn]

SKY

tbf he could only shoot people in his hood

unless I'm reading it wrong

The problem was I NEVER GOT TO POST AFTER NIGHT 1 ((((((((((((
if you'd seen the 'if you're not voting you die' thing after the votecount and lynched bork/relentless instead of gaiden, I had as many votes as the Day count so I could have lynched everyone anyways. I was gonna leave you/Kagami alive.

ya I missed it because I was too busy REFRESHING THE PAGE. then it didn't matter anyway bc Gaiden somehow posted 5 seconds after day opened. I'm pretty sure I was only a second or two behind until the p-edit showed up.

[pieguyn]

also if I had known Tokiko was valid I'd have tried to switch it around for once and send in Kurumi instead. IDK if FG would have accepted it, though. :<

[pieguyn]

ohey now Shadoweh can see what I did to my sister in the SDM.

~

[pieguyn]

FREE MY PC-98 BRETHEREN
LET MY MIMA GOOOOOOOOOOO

you would run into interference from GIF, I think

[pieguyn]

Border of Extacy is legit my favorite PV.

fufufu~

Pie why didn't you neighbourize meeee I WAS SO LONELY

sorry! I had to keep my end of the deal though or else

I'd lose my credibility for when I want to do this again

it would have been too dishonorable.