Amstaad general discussion (almost there!)

[inspiratieloos]

Gold percentages for amount of phases, is it a percentage of a later to be determined number or of something else?
Also What does the Human 'Gains skill: Language: Trade (Great)' do in conjugation with Human (Tiktuk/Passani) 'Gains skill: Language: Trade (Fair)'?

[inspiratieloos]

I think it'll be impossible to find a system where you can systematically and accurately give someone gold based on their aspects, I'd put it up to mod discretion.

I'm pretty sure I made my opinions on the aspect balancing known before the roll-back (best would be a negative relation between aspects and FATE points imo)

My question was on the specific interaction between the skills on a character that has the same skill twice or even three times (assuming that a Tiktuk/Passani still has the general Human bonus). Btw the racial skills are separate from the skill pyramid, right?

[inspiratieloos]

Still, why would a 4 aspect beggar/survivalist have more money on hand than an 8 aspect merchant/noble? Any direct relation between phases and wealth just doesn't work.

You could probably get close by having each aspect/skill contribute a certain value (positive or negative) to the starting gold value, but it is inherent in the game that you are free to have skills that the official rulebook doesn't even mention afaik. The mods will probably have to look through any character application anyway to make sure they are following the other rules, might as well have them manually assign a gold value on some rough guidelines.
Pedit: Ninja'd, what DN said.

So if I play a Passani who has a Language - Trade (Good) skill (say he has some experience in public speaking) I have
Aspect Orator -> skill: Language - Trade (Good)
Human -> Racial skill: Language - Trade (Great)
Huamn (Passani) -> Racial Skill: Language - Trade (Fair)
Does that give me Language - Trade (Legendary)? What if my aspects gave me a Great or even Superb skill, would I have Legendary+1?

Also atm everyone naturally had an average skill in all languages, this should be enough to overhear a conversation, maybe give everyone a mediocre or poor skill in the languages they don't speak?

[inspiratieloos]

The main problem is the disproportionate power between characters with different amount of phases. I have the impression that gold isn't very important in FATE.

We shouldn't be looking at ways to make gold work for different characters, but at how to balance characters with different levels of experience. If we use an alternative way than using less gold to compensate for more 'experience' the whole gold issue is moot anyway, while most solutions for the gold issue will only create more problems in character creation.

[inspiratieloos]

I think the ability to vary the amount of phases is something the mods find important or they would have done so. Having more money is a logical result from cultivating certain skills. Someone skilled in mercantile is going to have more money than someone skilled in bashing skulls, that shouldn't require you to use any of your 'screw with the game points'.

Having more FATE points with less aspects makes more sense, because the one that uses 8 aspects is already screwing with the game by making a character that is ahead of the curve.

Alternatively, you could give everyone 8 (or 1-7) aspects and allow people to give more aspects/skills to a single phase. As the rules are originally intended they promote creativity by giving you more FATE points for more phases. If you write an expansive back story, making a phase for every aspect, you get more.

[inspiratieloos]

1) Good point. The actually being able to hit your target would be considered a part of the skill in whatever weapon you use for most of them I'd think. Why wouldn't mages require accuracy to hit long distance spells? Do you know how hard it is to make sure you swing your sword/axe/etc. at exactly the right place to hit your opponents.

2) So:
Aspect: Magick
skill: Aracene knowledge (Sorcery, Pyromancy/Areomancer)
skill: Spark (lvl 1 spell)

Becomes:
Aspect: Sorcerer (Pyromancer/Aeromancer)
skill: Spark (lvl 1 spell)

Correct?

3) What's preventing said archer from also wearing said 60 pound armour?

[inspiratieloos]

Someone with investigative skills? Possibly with a magical talent in divination?

[inspiratieloos]

@kcda, I believe you can use aspects to create a sidekick.

@Bub 3), I was agreeing with you, just pointing out that the problem was even slightly larger than you mentioned.

@mods: -1 to changing combat distance if you wear heavier armour than your opponent, another -1 if you are wearing something abnormally heavy (heavy vs. heavy both get -1) could work maybe?
Could you give an example of what a heavy mage character would look like in the characters thread.

So if I play a Passani who has a Language - Trade (Good) skill (say he has some experience in public speaking) I have
Aspect Orator -> skill: Language - Trade (Good)
Human -> Racial skill: Language - Trade (Great)
Huamn (Passani) -> Racial Skill: Language - Trade (Fair)
Does that give me Language - Trade (Legendary)? What if my aspects gave me a Great or even Superb skill, would I have Legendary+1?

Also atm everyone naturally had an average skill in all languages, this should be enough to overhear a conversation, maybe give everyone a mediocre or poor skill in the languages they don't speak?

[inspiratieloos]

If you do not speak a language or know anything about a language how can you have anything but abysmal in it?

Can I actually have a low (not 0) probability of understanding, say, Chinese even though I haven't studied it at all? Answer: No, it is literally impossible for me to understand someone speaking Chinese.

You might if Chinese is one of the major languages spoken in your country. Personally I'm comparing it to my knowledge of French (had it in high school, passed with 5.6/10, haven't spoken it after that) .
I don't think you'd be abysmal, you'd probably be able to pick up a few words.

Considering everyone has a Fair (+1) in Trade and I'm pretty sure it is meant as everyone's second language, we can say that holding a normal conversation probably requires a Mediocre (> -2 roll) result (it works most (94%) of the time). Everyone also has Great in their own language so you can always understand that (You pass even on a -4)
So how often should you fail a conversation in a language you only know bits and pieces of? 3/4 of the time? If you have a natural skill of -2 (Poor) you'd be able to understand someone directly speaking to you 38% of the time, at -3 (Terrible) 6% of the time. So I'd say giving everyone a Poor skill in understanding the race languages (Elvish, Tiktuk, Passani, Dwarfish, Slith) and Abysmal in any non-standard language would be balanced.

@bub, I'd say anyone using a specific type of armour should have to conditioning to have normal movement in it. Sprinting might be a problem, but not running relatively short distances. Climbing in anything that is not specifically a very light outfit should be a daunting task. Changing distance is mostly dependant on the relative weight of the opponents' equipment, unless both are wearing overly encumbering armour.

[inspiratieloos]

I'm pretty sure that's an error in the mechanics file.

[inspiratieloos]

So, who is in charge of the mechanics. The 'right' solution for these things really depends on how you want the game to be played.

[inspiratieloos]

Btw, have you considered just adopting either the 'Brass Compass', 'Great Lighthouse' or 'Sorcery on a Budget' systems form the FATE guidebook (pdf pages 51, 56 and 58)? All of these avoid the 'have to spend a skill point for every spell I might want to cast' problem.

Great Lighthouse seems to be the most flexible, you have 1 aspect in the preferred type of magic, giving you unlimited 'cantrips'. You can spend a skill point to purchase a 'stunt' which comes down to 'one bigger/instant effect per day per stunt'.

Spoiler: Great Lighthouse

So the character would have
Aspect: Pyromancy
Skill: Pyromancy x2 (good)
[2 other skills]

This allows him to create and control relatively small flames, have some protection from fire, etc. (after a check) all day long.
On a later aspect he turns in 2 skills for 2 stunts
Aspect: Pyromancy
Skill Pyromancy (good, 2 stunts)
[4 other skills]

He can now, twice during a day, use a larger effect (throwing a fireball, setting something on fire during combat, etc.), he still rolls with a good skill.
You could exchange stunts for a 'magical endurance' skill, allowing someone to use it for all his spells instead of just a single type, but it would be inside the skill pyramid requiring you to also have multiple other skills.

Brass Compass is closest to the current system. You have aspects in your preferred discipline then skills in the type of expression, you can cast any spell within your limits.

Spoiler: Brass Compass

You need an aspect in the magic skill equal to the scope of what you want to do, then you roll for the skill you have in the type of effect you want (Evocation, Summoning, Mastery, Dispelling). You can do pretty much anything within this range.
A possible disadvantage is that a full mage character could conceivably annihilate any form of opposition.

Character:
Aspect: Pyromancer (officially: Initiate of Fire)
Skill: Evocation x2 (good)
Skill: Mastery (fair)
Skill: Summoning (fair)
Could consistently throw embers (finger sized) in combat, could control finger sized flames (can consistently control sparks) or make a permanent finger sized flame.

Character:
Aspect: Pyromancer x6 (Legendary)
Skill: Evocation x4 (Superb)
Skill: Mastery x3 (Great)
Skill: Summoning x3 (Great)
Skill: Dispelling x2 (Good)
[maxed skill pyramid]

Can consistently throw human sized fireballs in combat (every turn, pass on roll >= -1) could technically throw (+2), create (+3), control (+3), dispel (+4, +3 on magical flames) castle sized fireballs.

Aspects:
Pyromancer x2
Hydromancer x2
Aeromnacer x2
Lithomancer x2
Skills:
Skill: Evocation x3 (Great)
Skill: Mastery x4 (Superb)
Skill: Summoning x4 (Great)
Skill: Dispelling x3 (Good)
[Maxed skill pyramid]

Can continuously (every round, almost guaranteed pass) control opponents body parts (open hand to drop weapon, fall down when moving, etc. in addition to the normal fireball, gust, water whip and earth wall spells.

Sorcery on a Budget is completely different and very simple, you have an aspect and skill in your chosen field and the difficulty of a spell is determined by how hard it would be to create as a movie effect (basically if the average stage magician could do it its Fair, if you'd require a multi million special effects team its Epic-Legendary). Although this one is mostly meant for settings in which the general populace doesn't believe in magic.

Spoiler: Sorcery on Budget

It mostly speaks for itself.
Character:
Aspect: Pyromancer
Skill: Pyromancer x2 (good)
[Other skills]

Can create a flame effect that could be done in a movie with some time to prepare and creative camera work (larger effects can be done, but at risk of failing)

[inspiratieloos]

@DN, The problem was that any spell you'd want to use costs you a skill, thus a mage has to sacrifice massive amounts of experience to have even a little bit of a varied repertoire.

@quadz,
Brass Compass is closest to a 'standard' magic system, the thing is that power scales with aspects so it allows for dedicated mages to be absurdly powerful, a starting character can already cast Legendary level spells (especially considering he also had 6-8 aspect points to add points to his rolls). It is also very rigid, not really allowing for other disciplines besides sorcery without significant modification. The system is viable, but has some significant problems.

Great Lighthouse is almost exactly the same as the current system, except that 1 skill = infinite uses of 1 specific spell, becomes 1 skill = 1 non-cantrip spell/day.

Magic Budget system is really simple, but not really applicable to the setting. Being a mage also doesn't any more dedication than any other skill. On second thought, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it.

@T-Bone, can you post it in public? Comments from other people can be very useful.

@DN, maybe a dedicated mechanics topic can be useful (or even a topic per debated mechanic). Especially when you publish something new which will spawn it's own discussion.

[inspiratieloos]

We need

a magic thread

mechanic threads.

FTFY

[inspiratieloos]

I can help with anything not requiring flavour.

[inspiratieloos]

What v2v said, basically. You can't really progress on making suggestions when you never receive feedback.

[inspiratieloos]

Add CD/T-Bone/Bub/quadz/me to the team for mechanics?

T-Bone and me already have access to the account anyway.

[inspiratieloos]

I just put down the people that have posted most.

[inspiratieloos]

Someone other than me/T-Bone responding to the magic thread, might get something moving again.

[inspiratieloos]

You know, we could always use FATE.

[inspiratieloos]

Isn't that what FATE is, basically? The problem is just that there are several available variations of the mechanics and people want to use different things, or come up with new things.

Any single person could finish the mechanics within a day, then others would immanently be all over it telling that person how to make it better.

[inspiratieloos]

you know what? this should be just simple dnd format with some twist to allow pvp not only in combat but in checks.

ms is full of smart peeps im sure we can figure a way to not make the story revolve around the mechanics but the player.

You're just proving my point here...

[inspiratieloos]

Anything we actually have is quite coherent imo, although I was involved in the discussion about most of is so I'm biased. Just the parts that haven't been worked out are confusing. (mostly magic and combat)

[inspiratieloos]

Right now we're pretty much stuck on the magic 'schools', if you want a chance to play you could try to suggest some things there. (no guarantees that anyone will actually pick it up as this is somewhat dead)

[inspiratieloos]

I never left, it's just that I have said everything I had to say about the points that were being discussed.

[inspiratieloos]

Rules discussion, combined with the fact that there is no clear lead (most people think it's DN, but he is not a part of those). Also, most of the active people are either purely mechanics or purely flavour, no one is good at both, therefore we're stuck on thinking of magic schools (we have the mechanics).

Also low activity.

If you want to help, post in one of the topics (at least) I'll respond.

[inspiratieloos]

The idea was to have multiple DMs who are each responsible for ~4 players at a time.

FATE is pretty simple too, the problem isn't with the system but with the people here. Like I said earlier in this thread, I (or anyone else) could finish all the mechanics work in one day if I wanted to (if you assume lack of disapproval = approval the only thing left to do is inserting the basic combat system).
Thing is, at first that wold have led to massive discussion on whether something else might be better (see gold discussion) and now it leads to no one being interested enough to give any form of criticism (see my last posts on magic discussion).

Since your idea is about combat (the only mechanics thing we really have nothing definitive on) it might be a good idea to post a bit more detailed explanation in the combat thread (

Armor system

E: just noticed we actually have a separate combat thread), keep in mind that it does have to be compatible with the FATE skill/aspect system.

[inspiratieloos]

Define 'little'

I'm considering actually trying to see whether I can actually do what I said and finish everything this weekend... Who needs democracy anyway?

Disclaimer: 'Everything' in this case does not include flavour

[inspiratieloos]

I thought I had sent you a PM.... My bad.

[inspiratieloos]

1. Post general information under the Amstaad account in a new thread.
2. Open the /in to mod thread. (The Amstaad Gamemasters group still exists afaik)
3. Provide the not-general information to mods.
4. Open the /in to play thread.
4. ???
5. Profit.

[inspiratieloos]

*ladder*

I see no reason not to use that one. Is the basic 'no skill' for a roll still mediocre (0 as opposed to -1 in the old ladder) in that ladder?

Advice:

*world creation*

Not really my thing, but that's probably a good idea considering how much we have so far...

Advice:

make everyone around you look awesome

That's a given, not sure if it should be added to the rules though.

They do not refresh. Once used, they are gone until you find a way to gain more.

The players shouldn't be looking to gain more. The mods should be looking to use them to compel. I would also suggest that if you do any campaign type side forums, which I had hoped would become fairly common, you would start with some number of fate tokens and figure out the appropriate refresh rate. Eliminating the concept of refresh also makes it harder to balance some things. But I think it should all be doable. It might make stunts better if you are going to use them.

I seem to recall it was a conscious choice to use FATE points continuously instead of per instance. I should probably clear the explanation up a bit though.

question[

Why do aspects have levels?

Someone who spends half his life in the military might be a Great soldier, while someone who did a short stint might only be a Fair soldier.

Other stuff to add to descriptions

Characters in a game of Fate should be proactive. They have a variety of
abilities that lend themselves to active problem solving, and they aren't
timid about using them. They don’t sit around waiting for the solution to a
crisis to come to them—they go out and apply their energies, taking risks
and overcoming obstacles to achieve their goals.

Characters in a game of Fate are good at things. They aren’t bumbling fools
who routinely look ridiculous when they’re trying to get things done—
they’re highly skilled, talented, or trained individuals who are capable of
making visible change in the world they inhabit. They are the right people
for the job, and they get involved in a crisis because they have a good chance
of being able to resolve it for the better.
This doesn't mean they always succeed, or that their actions are without
unintended consequence. It just means that when they fail, it isn't because
they made dumb mistakes or weren't prepared for the risks.

Suggestion

Have a post at the top that lists some of the "big issues" in the city at the moment. ex.

A dramatic increase in pickpockets

might be on a region. The whole city might have something like

The Suicide Cult

because The Suicide Cult is trying to summon a Cthulu-like demon that will probably just destroy the entire city. This will put aspects on the entire city and give people something they can try to tackle. I suspect that this game will turn into warring factions of players at some point, but in the beginning, it will give players some guidance. It also gives the mods something to interact with the players with.

Add to character creation

It's probably better to make a separate player/mod-guide since there's quite a lot here that's not really rules.

More later... Sorry for the wall of text.

No problem, it's appreciated, although no guarantees that we'll actually ever get this going.

[inspiratieloos]

*ladder*

I see no reason not to use that one. Is the basic 'no skill' for a roll still mediocre (0 as opposed to -1 in the old ladder) in that ladder?

Advice:

*world creation*

Not really my thing, but that's probably a good idea considering how much we have so far...

Advice:

make everyone around you look awesome

That's a given, not sure if it should be added to the rules though.

They do not refresh. Once used, they are gone until you find a way to gain more.

The players shouldn't be looking to gain more. The mods should be looking to use them to compel. I would also suggest that if you do any campaign type side forums, which I had hoped would become fairly common, you would start with some number of fate tokens and figure out the appropriate refresh rate. Eliminating the concept of refresh also makes it harder to balance some things. But I think it should all be doable. It might make stunts better if you are going to use them.

I seem to recall it was a conscious choice to use FATE points continuously instead of per instance. I should probably clear the explanation up a bit though.

question[

Why do aspects have levels?

Someone who spends half his life in the military might be a Great soldier, while someone who did a short stint might only be a Fair soldier.

Add to character creation

It's probably better to make a separate player/mod-guide since there's quite a lot here that's not really rules.

More later... Sorry for the wall of text.

No problem, it's appreciated, although no guarantees that we'll actually ever get this going.

[inspiratieloos]

That's probably the difference between the old and new FATE then, I took the soldier thing from sample characters in the rulebook.

[inspiratieloos]

Mechanically you could invoke it multiple times in a short time, flavour wise it would allow you to get away with more things along the lines of just happening to know the correct answer/information or a compulsion because of an Aspect will be harder to ignore.

Players pick one or more aspects to represent important elements of the character that can tie into the events
of the phase.
Aspects are used to describe any element of the character. Aspects include things like attributes (Strong,
Weak, Agile, Charismatic, Tough, Fast, Slow), descriptors (Dutiful Charming, Alert, Dramatic), careers
(Knight, Mercenary, Musketeer, Cutthroat) or even ties to the setting (Merry Man of Sherwood, Initiate of
the Blue Wind, Fiodario Fencing Academy). Aspects may be good, bad or both but they should always reflect
some important element of the character.
When an aspect is chosen the character gains one level of that aspect, noted as follows:
!
Knight (Fair)
An aspect may be chosen again on a subsequent phase, in which case it goes up a level and is noted as:
!!
Knight (Good)
And then
!!!
Knight (Great)
The GM sets the maximum number of levels that can be chosen in a given aspect, but a good rule of thumb
is a third to a half of the total number of phases.

[inspiratieloos]

Lack of interest from the lore makers.

There was also talk of completely overhauling the rules again just as we finally had something. Although to be fair, what we had was mostly just me saying: "Okay guys, whatever we have now goes."

[inspiratieloos]

I think DeathNote has the details.

[inspiratieloos]

Honestly, I mostly just codified whatever we had at that moment for all the things.