Micro 575: Twin Peak Neighborhoods Game Over

[RedCoyote]

East-side representtttttttttt. yaher?

(/confirm)

[RedCoyote]

Alright, we're going to lynch in West Side if only because I'm a selfish ass and don't want to potentially be in a conftown pool to eat a night kill.

If you're proposing lynching from the west-side, wouldn't that necessarily mean it's more likely we'd (east-side) eat the nightkill regardless?

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Sore from last game.

[RedCoyote]

Well, unless we hit scum, I guess. My brain isn't wired to think that way since it usually never happens.

[RedCoyote]

Eh, come to think of it, it's probably a sound strategy. Further, even if we hit town that will even up the neighborhoods and force the scum to put more thought into their kill. Their NK choices will be more informative than usual this game (until/unless we lynch one).

UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells; VOTE: All In

[RedCoyote]

The most likely scenario is that we hit town regardless of which neighborhood we pick. So it will either be 4v4 or 5v3. If it's 4v4, we learn a lot from which neighborhood the scum decide to kill in. If it's 5v3, the scum kind of have to kill in the 5v3 neighborhood. This is guiding my decision most, All In.

[RedCoyote]

To everyone voting me: explain why lynching in the small pool is helpful or vote someone else.

If we hit town in the larger neighborhood, then I think the scumteam's kill will be extremely helpful with scumhunting. If we hit scum in the larger neighborhood, it's all gravy anyway so I'm content.

...and I just realized you are in the small pool so I'm arguing with the wrong side here.

UNVOTE: All In; VOTE: Some Random Mafia Player

1) Two fluff posts that say absolutely nothing.
2) He was online yesterday but didn't post.

---

I want to lynch in small pool because FJ is in small pool and they're a freebie read.

Perhaps, but I'm not feeling them so far.

---

Scum wants to keep the pools as big as possible, to make choices harder.

Yeah, I think this is a good point. I want to make it 4v4 going into tonight if we hit town.

---

It seems like we're not scumhunting, but trying to decide where to start killing.

Good point, but you're not voting anyone so...

[RedCoyote]

Thanks for the update. Care to make an actual post now?

[RedCoyote]

ProHawk can I chat with you on ICQ?????

[RedCoyote]

I honestly think it doesn't matter which side we vote from. scum is scum and town is town right? so lets just find scum and skip all this math hoo-ha.

It's best to keep this in mind, everyone. I appreciate Kahlan bringing this up because it's easy to lose perspective of our goal when we're trying to iron out the best strategy for success. Ultimately, we have to hit scum. That said, since there is scum in both neighborhoods, this debate was bound to happen, especially on D1.

I like lewarcher's first couple of posts, and I like Kahlan's posts above as well (although I disagree with her take on Radiant ... I think she's overthinking some of his posts). It's funny that lewarcher and Kahlan are basically seeing the game exactly opposite of one another if you look at the posts together and what they're arguing.

I'm still completely unimpressed with SRMP and think he's skating by on as little input as he think he can offer in an attempt to stay out of the limelight.

[RedCoyote]

SRMP, why did you get off of the Radiant wagon?

[RedCoyote]

So, uh, can Jeanne still play or what?

[RedCoyote]

lewarcher, you said you preferred lynching in the smaller pool. How strongly are you willing to fight for that?

[RedCoyote]

It is a consequence of my disbelief in the possibility of relying too much on math. In case I get scumreads on someone from the bigger pool, I will give it more weight and switch.

Fair enough. This is kind of the answer I thought you would give, so it doesn't help me much in reading you. I think as scum or town you may say this, but I was looking to prod at someone that's overly focused on the numbers to see if I can find some sort of attempt at avoiding serious scumhunting, you know? All In would probably be the closest to this, but I don't think he falls in this category.

---

In other news, Frozen sounds about a billion times more townie to me than Jeanne did.

So you're saying that FA is buddying me, yet your vote is on me and you think that I'm scum.

That makes sense.

This.

[RedCoyote]

Uh, if you knew Jeanne better you'd understand that she can't even look as townie as she did so far this game as scum.
Scum!jeanne can't go to the bathroom without wetting the front of her pants.

I played with her a grand total of one time and she turned in one of the worst IC performances I've ever seen. However, since she actually had a bit of a pulse this game, I saw her play as much different than it was in a game where she was confirmed town.

[RedCoyote]

I really don't think this needs to turn into Kahlan/ProHawk vs Frozen/Radiant.

[RedCoyote]

I'm probably a little bias against her, but this is all moot because I'm not getting that vibe from Frozen.

[RedCoyote]

I really don't think this needs to turn into Kahlan/ProHawk vs Frozen/Radiant.

wtf is the point of this post.

content pls redcoyote you sly motherfucker.

The point is I have no desire to lynch anyone in that group, of course. I'm not going to make 50 posts regurgitating the same stuff. I've voted, explained my vote, and continue to hold that position. No one has successfully shown me how SRMP is playing town and/or convinced me that another player is scummier than he currently is. When you inevitably get tired of slapping at Kahlan for being a new player, which is what I think you're getting lost in, I hope you'll join me in putting pressure on SRMP.

---

so where is everybody ?!

Super Bowl last night.

So, Frozen, can you take a step back and deconstruct this for me? You think either ProHawk is scum that Kahlan is following or that Kahlan is scum that is buddying ProHawk? This is the basis of your argument?

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, VC, please.

Post incoming.

[RedCoyote]

prohawk posted a bunch of scummy posts. I made an attack on him. he started sorting out the lynches by his words. his inconsistansies about me and the fact he had no comment about my posts about his posts is the scummy thing here

I feel like ProHawk will dispute this summary. I could be tempted onto ProHawk though, I guess. I like the second part of your argument though, almost as though he was pretending you weren't there.

whats your read on Allin and Kaboose ?

I like All In for town. Kaboose has done nothing for me except for the fact that he's on the same wagon as me, so I'm biased in his favor at the moment.

---

In the first one you had more of an if implied but the second post its clear you say you WANT to lynch in the small pool because FJ is in the small pool and that they are a freebie. How does that not look like you want to lynch them?

This makes sense to me. I get where Radiant's coming from, but I also get this interpretation.

I think I'm being too pacifist this game... I don't know. Usually I'm a bit more bloodthirsty. Maybe because everyone's acting so civil this game. This is a good thing!

---

For the love of pete! I DIDNT vote for RC ever.. I was simply stating what I found scummy about his actions. If I thought he was actual scum at this point I would have voted for him.

So I thought reads were what you post in your post about other players? Like what you read about them or how you see them? Am I wrong?

No, you're right, and this is townie. I'll stick my neck out for you, K. I've got a pretty solid town read on you. What's hanging the game up is that no other wagon is really naturally forming. Both the ones on Radiant and SMRP are stagnating for different reasons.

---

Coyote, who's east side scum?

SMRP is my best guess. I named a couple of reasons earlier, but, to expand further, he's only posting when called out and his comments seem arbitrary and aimless. What I mean by this is that he doesn't seem to be looking for a scumhunting target so much as he's just throwing out random comments. See: 196, 122.

Lastly, he hasn't asked one question all game. That's a big red flag for me that has proven to be a fairly reliable indicator of alignment in the past. Town is naturally wanting to get clarification, figure out what other people are doing, ask 'what if' scenarios, etc (e.g. "What do you mean by post X?", "Who do you think is scum right now?", "What if X flips town?").

[RedCoyote]

What dont you like about his posts? Why do you like what kahlan has put out?

Now you're going overboard, lol. As much as I appreciate you heeding my advice, I can't help but feel like you just read what I wrote about you and tried to come up with some questions as quick as possible. While this is a good sign, it's tainted given the fact that I called you out for it. That said, it's D1 and nothing is set in stone.

---

Can we just agree to disagree SRMP?

I don't feel like arguing with you.

Um, these are fair questions. In other words, you don't feel like defending your vote. Or are you sticking with just pressure?

---

VOTE: RedCoyote
This vote won't be moving.
The exact order of my reads might fluctuate a little bit, but he's

firmly

at the bottom.

Am I to assume this still based off reading 1 page out of 10ish like you said in 249?

Your reads are completely useless without anything to base them off of.

[RedCoyote]

Am I to assume this still based off reading 1 page out of 10ish like you said in 249?

No, my vote was made with the full knowledge of all ten pages, thus, the changes to the reads list.

{ProHawk}
{RadiantCowbells, Frozen Angel}
{Some Random Mafia Player}
{Kahlan}
{All In}
{Kaboose}
{RedCoyote}
This,

off the first page

. I'll let you know if it changes.

VOTE: RedCoyote.
This vote won't be moving.

{RadiantCowbells, Frozen Angel}
{ProHawk}
{Some Random Mafia Player}
{Kahlan, Kaboose}
{All In}
{RedCoyote}

And I do think it's All In and RedCoyote. They're in separate hoods and they match as scum partners.

The emphasis added is mine. First, you said that you had a scum read on me based "off the first page", and you voted me ~9 minutes later. You've just now told me that you had a "full knowledge of all ten pages" when you voted me. You read the first page, posted a reads list, read the additional nine pages, voted me, posted another reads list and called the other scum (All In) in approximately 12 minutes, correct? That's the accurate summation of your start to this game, Ranger?

[RedCoyote]

First, you said that you had a scum read on me based "off the first page", and you voted me ~9 minutes later. You've just now told me that you had a "full knowledge of all ten pages" when you voted me. You read the first page, posted a reads list, read the additional nine pages, voted me, posted another reads list and called the other scum (All In) in approximately 12 minutes, correct? That's the accurate summation of your start to this game, Ranger?

Yes. And? What's the point you're trying to make here? That it's somehow strange I can read a page a minute.

Oh, no, I don't think it's strange. I think it's a lie. I think either you came into this game and went through your scum PT for tips on how you should start this game off, or you read the first page, threw up an readslist based on the first page, and them skimmed through the rest pausing to swap a couple of names around.

I wouldn't mind the ten minute read through so much if you elaborated on what it is cause you to read person X as town or person Y as scum, but you deliberately decided not to tell us what you were basing your reads on. Leaving out that information was purposeful, presumably because you didn't want anyone to engage you over any of your interpretations of any of the exchanges the rest of the players had among one another. Another good example of this is when you stated in this post (269) that you had a "detailed" version of your reads that you neglected to mention. This definitely tells me that your entire start to this game is based on a foundation of fabrication. There's simply no way for you to have a "detailed" version of your readslist complete with an entire read through of the game in less than 15 minutes. On the other hand, had you told me that you had saw something scummy that I had said on the first page of the game, voted me, then went through the rest of the game and didn't find anything else particularly redeeming, that would've been a different story altogether, but now your contention is that you, one, read through the entire game, two, parsed the entire field of players into seven distinct tiers of scumminess, three, drew up this list in your first and third posts (along with the elimination of one of your tiers), four, claimed to have found both scum (along with the evidence that ties those two players together) in both neighborhoods, five, made four posts, and now six, claim you have a "detailed" version of your reads that you deliberately decided not to share with us... all in less than 15 minutes.

To those that would say, "oh, she probably read the game before she made her posts", well, no. Ranger went out of her way to tell us that her first post only applied to the first page. That stuck out to me immediately because it seemed like a very peculiar thing to point out when entering into a game. I don't recall ever seeing a player, much less a town player, pretend to have read the game to the degree of being able to segment the entire player list based solely on the first page. As if that weren't enough, you tell us that 9 minutes later you have completed the additional 9 pages, further segmented your readslist, and compiled a "detailed" version of these reads (that you declined to share with us, for whatever reason).

The town motivation for this behavior would be that you found yourself a tunnel extremely early on in the game. I'd be more inclined to take this point of view if I found some semblance of graduation to your posts/thoughts. I don't even mind getting voted right out of the gate by someone that's willing to engage me, even if it's just an attempt to trip me up, because then I can get a sense of whether or not this person is actively scumhunting as opposed to just coming out of the gate with an agenda. I must rule out the idea that this could be any sort of politically motivated vote, not only because you have yet to air your grievances with me in this game, but also because I have never played with you that I can recall. When removing that possibility, the idea that you could arrive to the conclusions you did, at the speed with which you did, without any sort of even pretense toward attempting to actively scumhunt... you are not just doing yourself a disservice (should you be town), but you're doing the rest of the town a disservice. You're doing yourself a disservice because it is in a townie's best interest to commit to a back and forth with all players, whether they be a scum or a town read, to see if there are misunderstandings, to see if there's common ground, to feel out where those people are on specific issues of the day (Which neighborhood should we lynch in? Is this wagon accomplishing its goal? Have you found potential connections between X and Y? etc). You're doing the rest of the town a disservice because it isn't enough to vote one player and check out whether that person be scum or town. There's something to be said for establishing yourself as a creditable player while in the game. I can't tell you the number of games I've heard the constant refrain of players killed or lynched early on only to come back in post-game with, "Oh, I had the scum nailed. You should've listened to me!" It's more than just being correct, it's being affirmed by the town. That's not to say that's where this is headed; I have no idea.

In any event, I ask again, do you maintain your story that you're confident you've solved the game (which is the only conclusion I can reach given your "I will not be moving my vote") in less than 15 minutes without any input from any player in this game? I want you to commit with me having laid my cards on the table, because you're effectively forcing my hand to vote you in kind. I know my alignment and I know lynching anyone else, should they flip town, will only increase the odds of my dying. I obviously can't work with a townie that has no interest in even keeping up the appearance of an open mind.

[RedCoyote]

before I read the rest, Ranger always throws up baseless readlists, just letting you know (I hate it too, but cant do anything about it)

I don't care if she does or doesn't. It doesn't serve the interests of this game to keep her around, from my perspective, if she's going to act like that. Not to go off on too much of a rant outside of what I've already done, but this is exactly the kind of poisonous behavior that has totally turned me off to MS. Honestly, I don't care about getting voted or lynched (especially given that my town game is not particularly strong, as anyone that has played with me before will attest to), but nonsense like, "I won't be moving my vote" in the context with which she said that is completely against the spirit of this game. So, you know, we can just vote one another until one of us is lynched if that's how we're going to play in 2016.

---

Takes one or two before people realize I

like

being lazy, putting as little effort as possible in.

UNVOTE: SRMP; VOTE: Ranger

[RedCoyote]

Oh, there's no need to humor me, hon. If that's how you play, that's how you play. We come from different schools of thought on Mafia. You strike me as such a cerebral player that I just don't know if I don't think I could work my magic on you if I wanted to. But lately I've been reaching into that magic bag and coming up empty even before we get rolling. It's like, and I'll just use one thing that you said as an example,

I

hated

post 4.

I could sit here and argue with you, you know, "Well, look, you didn't say

why

you hated it... what kind of argument is this? How am I supposed to respond?", but, honestly, I know exactly why you said that. It hits me right in the heart because you can see right through me and I commend that. It's just not for the reason you think it is. I wish I could sit here and somehow transfer my mental position, for lack of a better word, to you. I have this capacity toward forcing myself to play as town in a way that I do not as scum. People think it's difficult to read me when it's really not. One thing someone said about me once, and I remember it to this day...

Fair warning about RedCoyote: He appears to care about this game. This may be a RedCoyote scumtell (although I utterly hate and despise the logic that someone plays more town when they're scum, in RC's case it's kinda true).

And he was right. And I did care about that game and I did sound town in that game and I did make it to LYLO in that game.

I don't know. I feel like I'm rambling now. I had a couple of drinks and this post isn't coming together exactly how I want it to. The short of it is that I am forcing it, but I wish I could tell you why it sounds like that without coming across as bias or "you would say that". I'm forcing it because I'm town. I hate being town. I only play Mafia for the chance at being scum. Even this post, and this is a post that couldn't be more from the heart if I wanted it to, I can sense how fake sounding it is. It's weird and it's funny but being town just doesn't come naturally to me. And lately I've been getting lynched on it more and more and more and more (especially that second link ... that one was a real heartbeaker). It's like, damn, you know, I've been around too long for this. I've done this enough that this shouldn't be a problem with me. It's like if you're feeling sad and someone comes up to you and says cheer up, you know? It's that same thing exactly. If it was that easy, I'd just do it.

And it's like, it's not even this big thing, but it hurts me a little inside each time it happens. Because it's a detraction, ultimately, you know? It's a net negative even if it's ultimately not a major factor in the game. And it's not like this thing that just never happens for me because sometimes I do fall into a groove that just works, but usually it isn't and it becomes this big waste of time.

I'm sorry, this is going on way too long. I don't want to make this all about me, but it all just started pouring out at once. This is something that should've been vented over the course of several months and it's just kind of all bubbling up at once as I've been sitting on this post screen for, like, an hour.

[RedCoyote]

rather than assume it was something similar to your own "only commenting on things that are relevant" (I do that, too!), you call into question my ability to do what I did.

• Your reads are completely useless without anything to base them off of.

You chose not to expand. I have no intention of begging you for more information. You made a conscious decision not to do so.

Rather than ask me questions, you reacted defensively. Rather than think objectively, you stretched my words. These weren't horrendous, but they are still reason to uphold the read.

The only question I needed to ask (which I did ask, so this argument that I "didn't ask questions" is erroneous, the fact that you neglected to present any sort of rationale whatsoever upon voting me notwithstanding), was whether or not my summary of your entry into this game was accurate. You confirmed to me that it was. There's absolutely no reason for me to engage with someone that immediately votes me upon entering the game and includes the tag line of "I will not be moving my vote". I don't make it a habit of talking to brick walls. You've since backed away from your absolute, which I appreciate, but when given the opportunity to do so after having initially confronting you about it, you scoffed. The point is, you shut down discussion, Ranger. You didn't want to hear from me. For you to use that against me now is disingenuous.

[RedCoyote]

I noticed the deadline, but I have no intention of moving my vote. There's no sense in me trying to compromise if I am working against another player, be they town or scum, that acts the way Ranger is. I'm not trying to be a prick about it, but Ranger has shown no tangible willingness to acquiesce in the sense of trying to balance having a strong scum read/tunnel versus working in a practical manner to advance the town's win condition (i.e. vote movement). In other words, she's harming the town to such a degree that I do not think it's in the town's best interest for me to concede to her demands, even if it means I'm not advancing any other wagons.

We've got a bit of a standoff going on here, I guess you could say. I'm willing to put my gun down when I see some semblance of towniness in the context of what I said above. Another solution would be to lynch one of us, of course.

I've got a long drive today; I doubt I will make it back before the deadline. I just wanted to go on record that I am aware of the deadline and consciously choosing to keep my vote on Ranger at this time given the way she's acted.

[RedCoyote]

Really, Radiant, I try to be a sensible guy when it comes to Mafia, but I don't have any confidence Ranger will change her ways going into D2.

It's weird because she actually had a solid case, I think (arrived to after the fact, imo, but that's a discussion for another post), but the whole thing is completely tainted by her mentality. I don't think she arrived to her scumread from an honest place.

What I'm looking at is if SRMP or Eagle or All In were to flip town, okay, we're right back where we started. If I thought Ranger had an open mind, was willing to go back and forth with me or whomever from a position of honesty, then I'd be willing to back off. But I don't see that and I don't know if you're going to be able to sell me on it. I think she's the only one that can.

Is the

Mod

willing to suspend the deadline on account of replacing the SRMP slot?

The deadline will not be extended. The night phase will be extended if there isn't a replacement by the night's deadline, as indicated in the rules-post.

[RedCoyote]

I do think he has a fair shot at scum and I do want to lynch from our neighborhood.

UNVOTE: Ranger; VOTE: Some Random Mafia Player

As much as I want to be stubborn, well, whatever.

I don't want to think about this game for a couple of days, honestly.

[RedCoyote]

VOTE: Ranger

I'm going back to where I was before the deadline tempted me. I'm happy to re-explain to anyone why I am and will be voting Ranger for the foreseeable future.

Dang prohawk is gone.

[RedCoyote]

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch!

Votecount 2.2

RedCoyote -
Frozen Angel - RadiantCowbells, All In (L-2)
All In - Ranger, Kahlan (L-2)
Extrapolated Eagle -
Ranger - RedCoyote (L-3)
RadiantCowbells - Frozen Angel (L-3)
Kahlan -

Not Voting -

Day Two Deadline

(expired on 2016-03-02 18:40:00)

You're missing Eagle on this VC, Mod.

Fixed.

I'll post later. My town halls are about to start so I'm going to be watching that tonight. Plus I'm trying to plan an itinerary for next week which has me kind of distracted at the moment.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, one other thing, and I know this is kind of brass tacks, but is anyone here willing to stand up and say they have a town read on All In?

[RedCoyote]

RCs AtE is nasty and self meta is something I actually only do as scum, so none of your recent posts make me feel any worse about this.

I don't know enough about Radiant to say one way or the other. I trust Frozen has a better grasp on him than anyone else in this game if you are going to rely on meta (and, of course, it goes without saying that you'd have to accept Frozen for being town, which I do, incidentally), but I'm not a big meta guy.

---

I mean the only notable thing about ProHawk is that he was scumreading FA.
He was heavily scumread by a ton of people.
I find that kill bizarre.

Points to Eagle. He seemed the loudest person in favor of lynching Eagle.

---

I forgot that we had a neighbourhood!

Have you went back to read it?

Also, this points to town, imo. Unless Frozen is lying, which I hope the west would tell us if she is.

---

K let's talk then. I'm not seeing the Coyote scum. She was actually my second town read after ranger although I will admit I skimmed at least a few of the posts that were way too long.

I'm a guy, actually. If you think Ranger and myself are both town, I assume you spoke about this with Ranger in your neighborhood?

---

Why are you supposing that I derailed the Prohawk lynch only to night kill him?
Like, if I wanted him dead (and there's no other reason to kill him here), I would have just let him be lynched. I would have vocally argued but not strong enough to keep him alive, and let him get lynched.

Let's not go down the WIFOM route.

I am extremely reticent about townreading FA here.

I have some really bad feelings.

Do you see an issue with calling out Frozen for voting you based primarily on her meta experience with you and then making a post like this? What's most absurd about this is how we've done a 180 from yesterday when you two were slapping each other's backs in pursuit of ProHawk/Kahlan.

---

First off this is not a scummy post. If you read the first day I defend Prohawk and I felt he was town and I didn't want him to be gone. I truly thought I was the one going to be killed during the night because people hate my post and one of the people I think to be scum could have killed me off. so maybe she isn't scum after all?

First off, if you have to tell people that a post isn't scummy, it's generally not a good sign. Second, if you were the most "misunderstood", why do you think the scum would want to kill you off because of that? Wouldn't it make more sense for scum to leave you alive?

Anyway, I can UNVOTE: Ranger now, which I am kind of relieved to do given that I don't particularly suspect her for scum so much as I was just making a statement vote.

[RedCoyote]

I think Kahlan is scum in our group but we're lynching in west side today.

VOTE: RedCoyote

I think you were right here.

FA's the partner most likely but I'm going to pressure this first.

Yeah, you used that pressure line yesterday, too, Radiant.

[RedCoyote]

I'm fascinated that no one responded to my 506. That really speaks to me. It seems to me the only possible angle All In has is Radiant's suspicions of Frozen. I think All In is well aware that Radiant is his only lifeline and is desperately clinging to him, but then Kahlan is currently voting All In.

Let's see if she continues to.

VOTE: All In (L-1)

[RedCoyote]

Wow looks like I have some reading to do. Let me start writing my post. For now I'm going to UNVOTE: AllIn I don't want him getting lynched as I try to write out my post.

Okay, I think I have an idea what the scum team is now.

I wanted to see what Kahlan would do after voting All In. I'm now in a happy place. What was sticking out in my mind was that I wasn't convinced there was scum between Frozen/Radiant. Honestly, I have gotten town reads off of both of them from early on in the game (well, I needed Jeanne to replace out to see Frozen as town). As Radiant said, the ProHawk kill doesn't really do anything for him. The ProHawk kill helps Frozen somewhat, but I find her naked emotion today to be very difficult to fake. I think Radiant sees this, too, which is why he's been reluctant to vote her.

Had Kahlan not unvoted or given me some other indication that she continued to see All In as scum, I'd probably have looked toward Eagle or Ranger. Instead, I think Kahlan got nervous and backed away. What confirms this for me even more was that she didn't even have a "backup" vote, so to speak. Either she wasn't too keen on voting All In when she did vote him, or she has an interest in keeping pressure off of him. I'm not happy with either of those answers. In other words, she took her vote off of All In not because there was something more pressing that convinced her she found scum elsewhere, but only because of my additional vote. This may have been why she was quick to add how she was distrustful of Frozen in the same post she voted All In.

Frozen/Eagle, I do not think Radiant is the scum in our neighborhood, nor do I think we should be voting on the east side today.

Radiant, I think your intuition is right that Frozen is town. With that in mind, there is scum in the west.

I'm not usually online very late (which is seemingly when all the discussion takes place), so I have to make my posts count. All In fits as scum. No one is willing to go to bat for him. The scumteam killed out of the west side neighborhood last night as opposed to the east side. Ergo, they're more confident the scum on the west side is safer than the scum on the east side. He has completely proxied his vote to Radiant because he is unable to earn any townreads on his own accord. His play has changed day-over-day (see: 34/37 vs 492/498). He was completely unconcerned about Kahlan's vote and only seemed to care about my vote despite the fact that both Kahlan and myself are in the same neighborhood (see: 568, 580, 585). As a matter of fact, All In hasn't even mentioned Kahlan once today. Let's check out the last time All In mentioned Kahlan:

I still think we should lynch ProHawk.

FA is town
RC is town

Kahlan I'm not too sure about, but reads as town being wrong.

East Side scum pool: Prohawk, Random
West Side scum pool: Kaboose, lewarcher

Still going to keep voting east side.

This was toward the end of D1. Notice his wishy-washy stance on Kahlan. How he arrived at this conclusion is anyone's guess, but it keeps him from having to comment more in depth. This post has all kinds of bad things going on with it, frankly.

[RedCoyote]

Enough.

If you're town, I'll replace out after your lynch and we can talk about your tunneling.

oh know you think one of them is scum not me

how convincing

One of them IS confirmed scum you dolt.

VOTE: FA

Doesn't matter if you're town or scum, if you're going to play like this I have to get rid of you.

Hopefully you're scum but whatevs.

FA, last chance to make even a token effort to cooperate before I give up and just try to lynch you.

FA if you're town you gotta pull your head out of your bum.

UNVOTE:

Want to see more from FA.

Would be nice if she'd actually talk to me though.

why you think he is trying to dreil your wagon All In ?

If you're accusing me of white knighting him and/or being his partner do it outright.

This is not you struggling to decipher whether or not this is FA town?

If you are 100% convinced that Frozen is scum, why are you trying to "convince" her of anything (i.e. your alignment, to unvote X, etc)? Why are you wanting to "see more" from her? If you're not 100% convinced, then I think there's a piece of you that sees Frozen as town here that I am trying to bring out.

[RedCoyote]

Wow looks like I have some reading to do. Let me start writing my post. For now I'm going to UNVOTE: AllIn I don't want him getting lynched as I try to write out my post.

Okay, I think I have an idea what the scum team is now.

I wanted to see what Kahlan would do after voting All In. I'm now in a happy place. What was sticking out in my mind was that I wasn't convinced there was scum between Frozen/Radiant. Honestly, I have gotten town reads off of both of them from early on in the game (well, I needed Jeanne to replace out to see Frozen as town). As Radiant said, the ProHawk kill doesn't really do anything for him. The ProHawk kill helps Frozen somewhat, but I find her naked emotion today to be very difficult to fake. I think Radiant sees this, too, which is why he's been reluctant to vote her.

Had Kahlan not unvoted or given me some other indication that she continued to see All In as scum, I'd probably have looked toward Eagle or Ranger. Instead, I think Kahlan got nervous and backed away. What confirms this for me even more was that she didn't even have a "backup" vote, so to speak. Either she wasn't too keen on voting All In when she did vote him, or she has an interest in keeping pressure off of him. I'm not happy with either of those answers. In other words, she took her vote off of All In not because there was something more pressing that convinced her she found scum elsewhere, but only because of my additional vote. This may have been why she was quick to add how she was distrustful of Frozen in the same post she voted All In.

First off I only unvoted because I wanted the chance to read all the posts I had missed and see if that there was anyone who may or may not have more of a scum read. I honesty dont want us to mislynch on day2 we need to find scum. I had every intention of writing a post last night explaining my unvote and to list my scum reads but like I said before my baby wasn't feeling good so I wasnt able to catch up and post like I wanted too. I however can tell you for sure that I am town. I wasnt unvoting because I got nervous I dont mind lynching scum if that person is scum but I believe in having a chance to reread and see if my scum read is right. I didnt want a possible mislynch because I didnt get the chance to read over the new posts. with that said I have missed out on a lot and clearly have a lot of catching up to do and I will try and do that now.

Sounds good. I look forward to what you have to say.

[RedCoyote]

If this was a just a ruse to see my reaction why are you still voting for him??

Because your actions spoke more than your words did.

I do want to note though that Radiant did ask ranger to unvote. Which to me would imply to some extent that he thinks AllIn is town.

Oh, I don't deny that people have an All In town read "by default", but no one arrived to that conclusion on the merits of his posting is what I'm getting at. I have a town read of Frozen irrespective of my reads on Ranger/All In/Eagle, for example. I wanted to know if anyone could say the same thing about All In. Does that make sense?

---

why should we restrictly lynch from the west side?

As far as I'm concerned, the goal should be to keep forcing the scumteam to choose between two even neighborhoods if at all possible. I think I learned something from the ProHawk NK, did you? Can you present Radiant scum in the context of a ProHawk kill and/or a east-side neighborhood kill?

I can state unequivocally that the ProHawk kill changed some of my reads on this game.

RedC whats your read on RadinatC and why?

I say he's town, but if I am wrong on a read I do think it's my Radiant read. I'm more confident in All In being scum than I am about who his partner is on the east-side. I think Radiant, even if he doesn't want to admit it and wants to put on a big front about his confidence levels, is struggling to read you as scum. He wants you to be scum, I don't know, because it makes the game easier. Y'all both have this pride about being able to read each other, but I know from experience that pride comes before the fall. I just don't think scum-Radiant or scum-Frozen would've killed ProHawk. That's a simply as I can put it.

I think I presented a fairly solid case against All In and I hope you take it seriously if no one is willing to join you in voting Radiant.

[RedCoyote]

I would like to know why no one has even responded to my case on All In. Even All In himself spit on me (I mean, I can't blame him, as he's scum, but still... you think he'd at least make a token effort at defending himself). I'm the only person that has presented a case today with the exception of Eagle's case on Radiant that no one is interested in.

No, I'm not lynching Eagle because he's your current suspect of the hour, Radiant. Nor am I interested in lynching Frozen. Nor Ranger.

I'm going to have to start putting my foot down and taking lead of this town because I'm getting a little sick of y'all dicking around when I have the game solved. We're lynching All In today. Get aboard or tell me why I'm wrong.

[RedCoyote]

There is no way we are lynching Kahlan.

Lol. Yeah, good thinking there, bud.

I like how you equated my point that you haven't mention Kahlan at all today with the idea that we should lynch her. Because those two things are exactly the same, right?

[RedCoyote]

And if Ranger gets replaced for some idiot I swear I'll leave this game, no joke. I'm not about to be the only one fighting this against this ridiculous Radiant vs Frozen thing.

[RedCoyote]

Also Frozen, I answered you, why are you ignoring my followup questions???

[RedCoyote]

I would like to know why no one has even responded to my case on All In. Even All In himself spit on me (I mean, I can't blame him, as he's scum, but still... you think he'd at least make a token effort at defending himself). I'm the only person that has presented a case today with the exception of Eagle's case on Radiant that no one is interested in.

No, I'm not lynching Eagle because he's your current suspect of the hour, Radiant. Nor am I interested in lynching Frozen. Nor Ranger.

I'm going to have to start putting my foot down and taking lead of this town because I'm getting a little sick of y'all dicking around when I have the game solved. We're lynching All In today. Get aboard or tell me why I'm wrong.

why are you townreading me.

vote all in

[RedCoyote]

Sorry, I'm here.

All In's vote switch caught me off guard a bit.

The three candidates that I think could conceivably reach a lynch at the moment are All In, Eagle and Radiant.

We all need to weigh those candidates in our minds and the positive and negative outcomes each lynch provides.

If we lynch Radiant and he flips town, scum are forced to shoot west. Then the town has to decide between myself and Kahlan. I think I've done enough to prove that I'm the town in this neighborhood. Then it would be me, west-scum and west-town.

Like, if we lynch Radiant and he's town, you're effectively voting to put me in the LYLO position. I don't have a great track record with LYLO, I don't think. I'd have to run through my history to check. I can't remember the last time I was in LYLO. The last LYLO I remember was with me as a confirmed vig. We had an RB, an ascetic and a VT. I told the RB to block the VT, I shot the RB and the ascetic ended up being the final scum, lol. Anyway, I know y'all don't want to hear some old war story.

If we lynch All In/Eagle and they flip town, then the scum team has to choose which neighborhood they kill in, which (and I've said this multiple times now, but I'll keep saying it until it sticks) I think is a very helpful thing for us. It tells us immediately which neighborhood the scum think they are "stronger" in by making that neighborhood a 50/50 versus a 33/33/33. In other words, whichever neighborhood the scum shoot in means that they're wanting us to do a 50/50 lynch from that neighborhood.

Any comments on that?

[RedCoyote]

That's a fair point. Ranger/Frozen are on record as not suspecting you as the scum in the west. I have no intention of voting you over All In at the moment. No one has yet to refute my case against him nor sold me on why he is likely town. Ergo, I don't see where the hammer vote comes from.

[RedCoyote]

No, you are misreading. The scum wouldn't have to choose which neighborhood to kill in if we lynch townRadiant (which is how I get the LYLO scenario). It's clear they would shoot in the west in that case.

Of course, if Radiant is scum, then all bets are off. I'm just trying to come at it from a worst-case scenario POV.

[RedCoyote]

I'm not "afraid" of anything. This is a game. I'm simply putting that out there because it's something that ought to be considered if the lynch comes from the east side again. Unlike you, I don't assume every lynch is going to hit scum. When I'm town, I look at the game from a position of 'what if...?' Notice I even did that for the instance of All In flipping town. I'm not foolish enough to bank on any player flipping scum because that's the definition of a confirmation bias right there.

I'm not "so sure" that Radiant will flip town. I said that I think he would:

RedC whats your read on RadinatC and why?

I say he's town, but if I am wrong on a read I do think it's my Radiant read. I'm more confident in All In being scum than I am about who his partner is on the east-side. I think Radiant, even if he doesn't want to admit it and wants to put on a big front about his confidence levels, is struggling to read you as scum. He wants you to be scum, I don't know, because it makes the game easier. Y'all both have this pride about being able to read each other, but I know from experience that pride comes before the fall. I just don't think scum-Radiant or scum-Frozen would've killed ProHawk. That's a simply as I can put it.

I think I presented a fairly solid case against All In and I hope you take it seriously if no one is willing to join you in voting Radiant.

Now you can keep running your mouth with these misinterpretations or you can take what I say seriously. Why did you even bother asking me a question if you didn't read my answer?

[RedCoyote]

Now you can keep running your mouth with these misinterpretations or you can take what I say seriously. Why did you even bother asking me a question if you didn't read my answer?

I read your answer. and I don't like the way you started to make a shield for not lynching RC as it puts you in a bad situation. thats scum minded thinking.

and yeah I can do that. I will misinterpret whoever I want to understand what their saying. any problem with that?

You want to lynch Radiant? Go ahead. I've told you several times now that I do not think that's the way we should go as a town, but you haven't been able to counter me. I explained why, in detail, I thought lynching from the west side was better. Now it's your turn...

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: All In

Look, I'll even take my vote off. Sell me.

[RedCoyote]

Uh, we're going to get a 50-50 regardless if we mislynch either neighborhood, Frozen. The scum team is going to bring one of the neighborhoods down to 50-50 unless they don't shoot.

If we mislynch in the west, however, the scum is forced to choose which neighborhood to make 50-50, whereas if we mislynch on the east, the most town player on the west will be killed (which, from the looks of it, will either be you or Ranger).

[RedCoyote]

Further, I could care less about 50-50. I've already said that I think I'd be able to show y'all that I am town whether I'm left with Radiant or Kahlan.

What I'm not looking forward to is being stuck with myself and two players on the east side.

[RedCoyote]

What about Eagle?

[RedCoyote]

The main issue I have with All In is that I think he's the most likely partner with Kahlan, but he could also make sense as a Radiant partner. Eagle only really works with Radiant (but he does work with Radiant well). Ranger could conceivably be both, too, but I don't suspect her nearly as much.

If I were picking the most likely partnerships at the moment, I'd be going:

All In - Kahlan
All In - Radiant
Radiant - Eagle
Radiant - Ranger
Kahlan - Ranger
Kahlan - Eagle
Kahlan - Frozen
Radiant - Frozen

[RedCoyote]

Anyway, I've got to go to work. Frozen, who would be on your ideal Radiant wagon? Myself, Frozen, All In and Eagle?

[RedCoyote]

Radiant, who is your scumteam? Myself and Eagle or Kahlan and Eagle? Or other?

Ranger, I'm curious as to why you're not invested in trying to convince others to join the All In wagon? Yeah, you just made a token 762, but I haven't really heard a lot prior to that.

I feel like not enough people are being straightforward in this game. Radiant has just gotten so tightlipped. Kahlan flips her vote to... Ranger. Ranger has, "nothing else to say". All In is scrambling, but I honestly can't blame him for that (though I hated 742 with a passion). Eagle seems content to say nothing else. I'm getting this impression that they (Radiant, Eagle, Kahlan and Ranger) don't really care whether Eagle or All In gets lynched, which is kind of worrying to me.

[RedCoyote]

I'm here. I drew up a post yesterday, but I saved it as a draft because I wanted to hear what Radiant had to say first. I'm sitting here in an airport right now waiting for my flight to board here in a few minutes. I'll check back in the morning and see if anything new has happened, until then...

[RedCoyote]

This has been poking at the back of my mind over the course of today. This is something I've constantly tried to squelch as a red herring, but a multitude of factors have contributed toward bringing it more and more to the forefront of my thinking. Please know that this is not something that I have been leading up to, but rather something that has been growing over the course of the day due to circumstance.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

1) an unwillingness to critically look at All In when he necessarily must see him as town to continue to vote for Eagle
2) a lack of scumhunting in our own neighborhood (whereas with Kahlan she has shown some willingness to engage the game thoughtfully)
3) Frozen remains utterly convinced that this is scumRadiant, which, given that I do see this as townFrozen, must hold weight in my mind
4) completely checked out once the wagons shook out to be Eagle vs All In... this worries me because he doesn't seem to care if either of these players are lynched
5) his read with regard to Frozen has been erratic, swinging from calling her "pretty town", appealing to her emotions, calling her scum, ignoring her, to apathy, to effectively townreading her again due to his vote, to now, finally, voting her once again

There's something underneath all of this, and I'm no longer getting town motivations from it. I think that especially this long awaited "reread" was just an excuse for him to double down on his pointless Frozen attack that does nothing to advance the town's interests. I do not accept that both All In and Eagle are town. I do not accept that this is one big charade from Frozen. I think Frozen has Radiant's number here and he is clueless about how to effectively respond to her genuinely. He has tried several different approaches, none of them worked, so now he's attempted to "sacrifice" himself to preemptively stop people from voting him (which was bound to happen if neither Eagle/All In picked up steam). Whereas I previously thought that Kalhan and All In was the most likely scumteam, it now appears to me that Radiant and Eagle are the most likely scumteam. I think Frozen has been completely on point this entire day, but it took me a while to come around to what she was seeing in Radiant. I had this post mostly typed up a couple of days ago, but I wanted to give Radiant one last opportunity to convince me that he was actually willing to put forth the effort to predict the scum here. I was disappointed to see him only retreat to his Frozen scumread, which was his tired strategy from fairly early on in this game. I've seen this tactic for years... tunnel a player that you "know well" in order to get people to think it is a town vs town fight, then get they'll eventually move their votes elsewhere when they see how "sincere" you are. He had me convinced for a while, but what ultimately had me convinced this was a ruse was when he couldn't successfully transition from being incredulous about Frozen to actually pretending to scumhunt.

Anyway, I feel confident about this. I hope I can discuss this with Ranger and Kalhan and get their votes before the day is up.

[RedCoyote]

L-1

[RedCoyote]

The two players voting you must be scum.

[RedCoyote]

If you were actually curious, I'm tired of waiting for you to give a damn about who gets lynched today. No one is holding you to any standards except the standards of a supposed town player that actually cares about lynching scum. No one, absolutely no one, is interested in lynching Frozen today. Yet you continue to push that... the only reasonable conclusion I can come to is your pushing her for show.

[RedCoyote]

you're*

[RedCoyote]

Bullshit.

[RedCoyote]

I love how it took pushing Radiant to the damn precipice to get him to finally vote All In. There's a reason why he continually pushes Frozen despite no one even entertaining the idea that Frozen is scum (except, what a surprise, now All In does). The self-defeat, "Oh, you should just mislynch me now and get it over with ... I might do it myself!" is the coup de grace. I wonder if it ever crossed Radiant's mind that All In was effectively sitting at L-1 for most of this day before he let Eagle "twist his arm".

The main reason I switched my vote to Radiant is that I'm no longer going to keep trying to construct these elaborate partnerships of Kahlan and All In when Radiant right under my nose. I've been fighting against Ockham's Razor here.

No lynching is a bad idea mostly because it puts us in MYLO tomorrow rather than LYLO. One extra town voice, but one extra chance to mislynch, too.

If someone is online, I'll be happy to have a dialogue. I don't see this game as difficult as is being portrayed. Ranger's wish-washyness especially took me aback.

Here's a hint, folks. I'm town. Kahlan is town. Frozen is town. Ranger is probably town. Three people are left. Can we lynch them now?

[RedCoyote]

I'm happy to. You got three votes?

I'd love to see you lead a lynch on All In or Eagle.

[RedCoyote]

Talk about a WIFOM kill.

Ranger/Eagle, did y'all talk about anything last night? I expect both of y'all to have the game solved now.

[RedCoyote]

That kill really throws me off my stride a bit, because I was actually looking forward to going 1 on 1 with someone from my neighborhood, but as I have been saying all game... the neighborhood kill choices tell us more than just about anything else scum does this game. Either Eagle or Ranger feels extraordinarily confident in their play this game that they'd be willing to take on that challenge, especially given how much Ranger went out of her way to build up her Eagle townread.

Then again, Frozen was, in my eyes, the most obvious town in the game (aside from myself). Radiant obviously benefits the most from the Frozen kill, but he didn't necessarily benefit the most from the ProHawk kill. Neither Kahlan nor myself really benefit from the Frozen kill, both of us benefited somewhat from the ProHawk kill.

I feel like I'm kind of going in multiple directions here, but I'm trying to put it together in my head as far as partnerships shake out. More incoming...

[RedCoyote]

Bluntly I don't. I wanted to be dead so I wouldn't have to sort you.

Every townie wants this, masocists that enjoy playing as town excepted, so this doesn't really help me.

I don't understand why Extrapolated Eagle let himself be confirmed scum considering if he had granted my request there'd be a much harder 1v1 going on, but oh well.

I wouldn't say that necessarily. I mean, from your perspective, sure. I'm talking from an east-side perspective though. I saw Frozen as much more likely town than you. I had absolutely no issue crossing a Radiant-Frozen partnership off my list, which goes a long way for me given how I've more or less come around to the idea that Radiant is likely the scum on my side.

Do you think Kahlan shows a particularly bias? If yes, to whom? If no, why the kill?

You three will go all wifom about it, take time analyzing, but eventually hammer him. Then I'll die as conftown, leaving you three to fight among yourselves, but at that point, won't be my problem. It's yours.

This is very much a cop out. You should care... even if the town chooses the right candidate today, they still have another lylo ahead of them. Why would you say this?

---

y the fuck am I still alive

Could you lay it on any thicker? How many times are you going to pull from that box?

me being still alive means that scum most likely expect a mishammer in this group.
which suggests ranger.

This is honest. I've not decided yet. I'm going to have to ruminate, but I appreciate you at least being upfront about it.

I'm going to be even more blunt. The Frozen kill directly points to Ranger-scum. Period.

That being said, is that the conclusion Eagle wanted us to reach? I'm not sure yet. Hence my comment out of the gate, this kill is full of WIFOM, even moreso than the ProHawk one.

who the fuck is making these night kills?

Mmm-hmm.

---

Honestly I don't think the kill was motivated by EE. It'd be motivated by the scum of your side.
The question arises then, who in your neighborhood has the most to gain by killing FA?

Mmm-hmm.

I can't make heads or tails of why he died otherwise. He didn't really have much in the way of reads, except on the people already dead. The one read on a living player he has is RadiantCowbells, but that read is inconsistent too, going from scum to town.

ProHawk had come down on both myself and Eagle during the N1 chat. As we started discussing, Kahlan and ProHawk went at it a little bit, too.

Another idea: ProHawk was fairly active, relatively speaking. Frozen was certainly active. With those two down, Radiant would probably be next in line (not that there's a line necessarily as activity naturally fluctuates, but those three I would put at the 'top-tier' of activity while they were alive, more or less).

Some Random Mafia Player, as we know, was the counter-wagon to EE, so there's also that.

Mmm-hmm.

Objectively this would look good for RadiantCowbells, need to make sure it's not bussing though.

If it helps: I'm also the only living player to have not been on the SRMP mislynch.

While in the neighborhood chat, I considered the lynch wagons (which Radiant proceeded to immediately, and awkwardly, slap me down for) as a piece of evidence to ruminate on.

Three players were on both lynches. Frozen is now dead. Eagle and Radiant remain. Must one of them be scum? Well, this is more a rhetorical question than it is me asking you given your circumstances, but that was something I was considering.

---

No idea why fa was killed. Maybe cuz ranger thought she could win against me? At least that makes today easy.

This is horrible. You're going to have to do better than this, or I'll just vote you right now and we'll be done with the day. If you're scum, I don't care what you do. If you're town, you have a responsibility to, one, sell us on who you know to be confirmed scum, and two, give us insight as to who the scum is on the east-side.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: particular*

So, first posts going in, Ranger's 938 and Eagle's 954 were both objectively pretty shitty. I slapped both of their hands and look forward to hearing more.

[RedCoyote]

Thanks for that. Here's my just-as-insightful retort: Ranger/Radiant maybe.

I want Ranger and Eagle to take firm stands about their scum predictions on the east-side (Ranger's 953 is much more in line with what I'm looking for) in addition to selling us on themselves.

While you're here, Radiant, who is Kahlan's hypothetical partner?

[RedCoyote]

RedCoyote trying to position himself as town leader leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I would suspect so. You know you can't roll over me like you tried to do with Frozen.

---

Because when I die with reads I feel strongly about, I'll care and wish for them to not be ignored.

That's cute, but you need to make peace with that happening regardless of how much or how little you contribute, regardless of how tunnelled or open-minded you are. That's the way of the world here at MS, and most certainly other online Mafia sites. As for me, I take more in on observing how a player scumhunts, who they're focusing on, and why they've got there. Showing their work, more or less. Anyway, long way of me saying that your answer is still a cop out, and your justification of said cop out does nothing for me either.

So I currently hold no desire to have my reads treated as if they are strong.

That's why the good lord invented the concept of gradation.

---

I also think scum NK FA because he wasn't happy with frozens hammer almost trapping him on the allIn wagon.

Do you think Eagle was trying to back away from the All In wagon toward the end? Or do you mean Radiant?

I got to thinking about that because eagle was scum in our last game we played together and if I'm basing my views on that last game then no he wouldn't be scum this game

Could you expand on this? Radiant talked about it a little bit, but I don't think you've brought this up. Any similarities/differences?

Then prohawk dies and the last person he voted for was eagle.

Yep. This is the biggest point in favor of Eagle being scum. I think there was a reason for it. ProHawk was definitely out to get Eagle, and he was even more enthused about it going into our neighborhood chat. During D1, he was scumreading Radiant and Frozen, but coming into the night he started scumreading me. As far as Frozen goes, she was going after Radiant hard and her two picks in her neighborhood seemed to be between All In and Ranger. I see a common denominator in Radiant here, and it especially piqued my interest when Radiant tried to throw a subtle remark a few posts ago about how the kills were just trolling. I definitely disagree with that.

[RedCoyote]

Sorry, Mod. I travel a lot for work, and I don't like posting on my phone.

Ranger ought not act surprised since she hasn't changed her opinion since the start of the game. I get no sense like she has bothered to take the time to scumhunt in any honest capacity from the word go. It brings it all back to the time when she was absolutely "not moving" her vote. I've effectively been the punching bag this entire game, and even Ranger has to admit that one, taking the arrows of all the general attacks against "scum".

Eagle, how come you didn't bother to appeal to me? It's clear you that you think Radiant is scum, but you focused entirely on Kahlan in your posts?

Radiant's vote was practically pointless. I wasn't going to vote myself and Kahlan was never online while the east-side was. It was a self-serving tactic that Ranger felt the need to ham-handedly acknowledge out of desperate need to confirm her biases.

In any event, I know who's scum on the east-side. Radiant and Ranger are inseparable, but it's likely because they have experience playing with one another (similar to Frozen-Radiant, but in reverse). There's this inalienable bond that can occur between some players that prevents them from seeing one another the way a fresh set of eyes can. I just don't think they're scum together. They doted on one another too much to be scum.

In other words, Ranger isn't scum. Eagle's attempt at naked emotional appeals are impossible not to notice. His lackluster moves toward drawing attention at Radiant yesterday were purposeful, but so was his immediate switch back to All In whenever he saw it as an opportunity. Eagle has obediently followed Radiant's lead this entire game, 440 probably being the most obvious and damning example. I had the scum narrowed down yesterday to All In or Eagle, but Radiant pushed All In at the end of the day and we couldn't really get an Eagle lynch to happen. Now Radiant votes me instead of focusing on the 50/50 split, appealing to Ranger/Eagle to get them to unvote who, from their unique perspectives, is the confirmed scum. What's more, he couldn't even bring himself to vote Eagle just now, instead waiting to see if Kahlan would force his hand or not. The Frozen kill really only makes sense to me with scumRadiant as he's the only one who benefits from it.

Anyway, I'll put the pressure on. VOTE: Extrapolated Eagle

Your move, Radiant.

[RedCoyote]

Any L-1 vote in lylo is dramatic. Unlike you, I'm not trying to manipulate anyone with radical rhetoric (e.g. "Red is scaring the shit out of me... can you guys vote him for me?"). I'm not playing to Ranger, Eagle or Kahlan. I'm trying to find scum.

[RedCoyote]

And if she errs more in scumreading you, then all the more reason she'd hesitate to get it wrong again.

[RedCoyote]

If I were scum and he was town I'd have already won the game by voting him.

And if you were scum and he was scum, you'd delay and attempt to get votes on me instead.

---

991991 is heavy-handed emotional appeals layered one after another.

I disagree. I'm calling it like I see it. Apparently Radiant still has misgivings about which of you is scum, so it would behoove you to spend less time fawning over Radiant and more time questioning your notions.

---

I can't vote for Red. If ranger is scum then Red probably isn't because she has been saying he is scum this whole time. Plus she hasn't voted for him yet which kind of seems strange for someone who thinks he is scum this whole game. So either she is scum and doesn't want to hammer her partner or scum is already on the vote. I don't know this is getting to me. I honestly know that if ranger decides to vote then one or both scum are there. I have never been in this situation before if scum were to vote for his partner then would town win because there is only one scum left? How does this work?

Do you think Radiant is trying to draw attention away from the west-side? I'm trying to piece together the best scum partnership, and I see Ranger as the pawn in this one. There are two scum left though.

---

Or rather you guys since I doubt the other one will leave me alive after I've already made it very clear who I'm going after. Anyways, I feel worse about this since kahlan doesn't seem to think red is confscum for some reason?

You're all over the place. A partnership between Ranger and myself doesn't make sense, yet you immediately jumped aboard Kahlan-town. It's likely because you know her alignment already. I called you out for this earlier.

---

How am I suppose to know for sure that he is confirm scum? He had two votes against him and ranger who I assume you think is scum was saying red is scum also. It just looked bad having both westside think he is scum. You were voting him and ranger was clearly stating how much she thinks he is scum (which she has been saying this whole game.) I'm so confused on what to do right now :/ I really want to catch scum and not mislynch.

Both scum kind of just unloaded their whole bag of goodies at once in an attempt to get me lynched. It failed. Ranger didn't move, which hints at her being town. I think the best move today is to lynch Eagle, he flips scum, Ranger will get shot, and then we lynch Radiant tomorrow.

[RedCoyote]

Kahlan/Ranger, these partnerships no longer make sense:

Kahlan - Ranger
Radiant - Ranger
RC - Eagle

The only remaining partnerships are:

Kahlan - Eagle
Radiant - Eagle
RC - Ranger

Which of them is most likely?

[RedCoyote]

Radiant and Eagle have been working pretty closely together today and yesterday, that's for sure. Yesterday I wanted either an All In or Eagle lynch, but Radiant pushed for All In instead of Eagle. Today he's pushing for me instead of Eagle, which is weird since there is a confirmed scum between Eagle and Ranger.

[RedCoyote]

There's also a confirmed scum between you and Kahlan!

I'd only be open to a Radiant lynch if I could get Ranger on board. I'd take it as a personal victory and a feather in my town-game cap if I could get her to see what I see.

[RedCoyote]

Everyone in this game knows that I'd bus in this situation. Why else bring EE to a 1v1 that he's obviously going to lose?

This.

Radiant usually either busses hard or defends hard. This game he's done neither to Eagle. Eagle vs. me is not a battle Eagle can win, so Radiant would be unlikely to have treated Eagle this way if he were the partner.

Another thought.. If radiant is scum then that would probably mean ranger is his partner. Radiant, ranger and eagle all have been saying red is scum. Now the problem I have with this is I am town so I know that either both scum are saying red is scum or his scum partner is stating that he is scum.. The question is which one is it?

The reason I think it's the former is because I wasn't lynched. I think both scum tried to get me lynched early, but they weren't successful, so now both Radiant and Eagle have unvoted me and are scrambling. Something I've noticed over the past two days is Radiant attempting to distance himself from Eagle.

[RedCoyote]

I think the only thing that we know for sure at this point, based on the votes we've had so far today, is that there are only three partnerships left that make sense:

Kahlan - Eagle
Radiant - Eagle
RC - Ranger

The town is going to have to decide which of these is the most likely and vote accordingly.

[RedCoyote]

Of course I'm the RC in that list, which is generally what I go by in games where people don't try and steal my seniority-earned initials.

[RedCoyote]

I think the only thing that we know for sure at this point, based on the votes we've had so far today, is that there are only three partnerships left that make sense:

Kahlan - Eagle
Radiant - Eagle
RC - Ranger

The town is going to have to decide which of these is the most likely and vote accordingly.

Why do those three options only work?

Because Eagle is sitting at L-1 with both you and Radiant having posted. Ergo, unless either of you are scum with Eagle, scum would've taken the lynch and won the game. The only other option is if Ranger and myself are scum together making an all in play (no pun intended), but that isn't the case. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

[RedCoyote]

Can we lynch Eagle now and be done with it?

[RedCoyote]

There is no manipulation. I just have the game solved. I had it solved yesterday, too, more or less, with the exception of All In. I had it down to you and Eagle or All In, but I realized too late that All In was the incorrect lynch.

[RedCoyote]

That doesn't explain why you're trying to silence the person who is conftown from town!RC's PoV who scumreads you.

Silence? I'm sitting here twiddling my thumbs. Do you mean by voting Eagle I'm silencing him? Why don't you let Eagle speak for himself?

Like Town!Red would be trying to change Ranger's perspective or argue with her or get frustrated with her. You're just trying to keep her quiet. I'm surprised you haven't asked EE to selfhammer yet.

I tried it already. It didn't work. She still thinks I'm scum. She has since the second she replaced in. There's no sense in talking to a brick wall.

I think the only thing that we know for sure at this point, based on the votes we've had so far today, is that there are only three partnerships left that make sense:

Kahlan - Eagle
Radiant - Eagle
RC - Ranger

The town is going to have to decide which of these is the most likely and vote accordingly.

Why do those three options only work?

Because Eagle is sitting at L-1 with both you and Radiant having posted. Ergo, unless either of you are scum with Eagle, scum would've taken the lynch and won the game. The only other option is if Ranger and myself are scum together making an all in play (no pun intended), but that isn't the case. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Oh, and why did you exclude RC - Eagle for absolutely no reason?

It doesn't make logical sense. I'm only eliminating illogical pairings, not all possibilities (it's technically possible that any of us could be scum together, but some of the pairings no longer make logical sense given the votes). I wouldn't bus Eagle if he were my partner, first off. Second, if he were my partner, that would mean both you and Kahlan were inexplicably letting him stay alive, which doesn't make sense. Ergo, one of you two is scum and Eagle is your partner. The only other possibility is if Ranger and myself were scum together, because then we would both have our votes on the same person.

I'm just waiting for Ranger and/or Kahlan to connect those same dots.

[RedCoyote]

I wouldn't bus Eagle if he were my partner, first off.

Yeah, you'd clearly fight the lynch when me and Ranger are already set on him and Kahlan is mostly ready to lynch him.
You clearly had bussing him as a possibility when you killed in that pool. Stahp.

"Set on him"? How could you possibly be set on him? You've spent half the day voting me, lol.

No, let me bring some honesty into the discussion. The only thing you're "set" on is trying to hedge your bets. You're hoping that either Kahlan votes Ranger as she said she was leaning toward yesterday, or you're hoping Ranger votes me. That's the only reason you're dragging your feet, and that needs to be said loud and clear.

Kahlan's still figuring out where she stands. Why would she hammer?
I want to give Ranger some time to fully express her reads

and admit that she loves me

before I hammer.

a.k.a. "Kahlan, please vote Ranger! Ranger, admit your love, please vote RC!"

You really will try anything to keep Eagle from getting lynched, won't you?

[RedCoyote]

Wow, Radiant. You are so transparent.

UNVOTE: Eagle

I am this close to voting Radiant. No joke. He is too obviously scummy.

[RedCoyote]

Radiant is willing to lynch anyone that isn't Eagle. I don't know if it can be anymore clear. He'll vote both me and Kahlan to get his way.

I unvoted because I am seriously considering voting you, Radiant. I've let you walk over me all game.

[RedCoyote]

Screw it, I know Radiant is scum. There's no way he'd vote both me and Kahlan as town. No way.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

I encourage Ranger/Kahlan to join me.

[RedCoyote]

IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER BECAUSE IF I WAS SCUM I ALREADY WON THE GAME.

UNVOTE.

Uh, nice try. Lynching your scumbuddy would not have won you the game.

[RedCoyote]

You can't trick me, Radiant. I know you are trying to lynch either me and Kahlan. It's not going to work this time. Vote Eagle or die. We are lynching scum today.

[RedCoyote]

If Radiant votes Eagle, I may consider going back on that wagon. Otherwise I might just keep my vote here the remainder of the day regardless of what happens. I'm tired of Radiant trying to manipulate everyone with tricks.

[RedCoyote]

This is pointless. We need the west side to check in because clearly we're all arguing past each other here. Radiant has resorted to name calling, so it's clear this is going nowhere.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, let's take a step back and reassess.

Radiant, you were voting me at the beginning of the day, and I can pull this post up from earlier today.

VOTE: RedCoyote

Then, when that didn't go your way, you just now tried to get Kahlan lynched instead.

Fuck you then Kahlan.

VOTE: Kahlan

You're obviously scrambling to lynch anyone you can in a scummy way. I don't appreciate it.

[RedCoyote]

God why is Kahlan this dumb.

No one is interested in reading your walls/insults, Radiant. No one can even say why Ranger is town anymore, they just scream and namecall. Whatever, getting tired of this game thinking about voting Ranger just to end today... will check back later and if it's still the same votes I might just vote Ranger since that is seeming like the best chance at lynching scum.

[RedCoyote]

Kahlan, you still want to lynch Ranger? I'm getting kind of tired of fighting with Radiant and I'm starting to think Ranger may be the scum on that side. That explains why he defends her so much, too. They might both be scum together.

[RedCoyote]

No, you aren't confirmed town. The only thing you are confirmed for is not lynching either me or Eagle, Radiant. Kahlan was the one who voted me first. You had already unvoted.

[RedCoyote]

To me it seems so obvious that Radiant is playing games, but I am tired of fighting this. Kahlan you and Radiant can keep talking in the neighborhood, I am getting tired of going in circles.

[RedCoyote]

The reason why Radiant hasn't died at night is because he is scum...

[RedCoyote]

Radiant keeps trying to say that Eagle and him are confirmed town, but no one believes him. If you dare to speak up to him, he votes you and calls you dumb.

[RedCoyote]

Yes, Radiant is trying to take advantage of WIFOM to get everyone to think he's confirmed town because he didn't hammer.

[RedCoyote]

We have three votes right now. One on Radiant, one on Eagle and one on Ranger. Kahlan/Radiant need to vote someone so the other person can hammer. This day has gone on long enough, imo.

[RedCoyote]

We can't wait on you, Radiant. You don't want to vote anyone. You just want to keep talking forever. You stopped the Eagle lynch yesterday and you stopped it again today. Good for you. Some of us are actually trying to lynch scum.

[RedCoyote]

Ideally, I'd like Kahlan to just say she's tired of listening to your BS and vote you. That would be in a perfect world.

[RedCoyote]

God why is Kahlan this dumb.

God how the fuck do you get a tool like Kahlan

RC taking advantage of newbies is disgusting and you should feel bad.

Are you finished yet? I think that's enough insults for one day. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them "dumb" or a "tool" or a "newbie".

[RedCoyote]

Radiant and Eagle are not confirmed town. This is getting tiresome.

[RedCoyote]

Kahlan, was Eagle very emotional in his town game? Because I've been getting that sense all game. It originally made me think he was scum, but I don't know his meta very well.

[RedCoyote]

This reads like Radiant is upset that his partner is going to get lynched to me.

[RedCoyote]

Kahlan, was Eagle very emotional in his town game? Because I've been getting that sense all game. It originally made me think he was scum, but I don't know his meta very well.

I don't know his town play. I have played one game with him in which he was scum and he was mean, pushy and posted way more probably to make himself appear town. This game play just seems a lot different which in return make me think he could be town :/ now three people so far have stated they think you are confirmed scum and you haven't really defended your status... Do you have any reason you think might prove other wise? who is your top scum read on the west side and why?

I would question their motivations for doing so. I know that either you or Radiant is the scum in our neighborhood, and you know that it's either me or Radiant. Let's assume Radiant is that scum. Wouldn't it make sense for him to try and paint himself as confirmed town and paint me as scum? As for the west side, Ranger is right, she has called me scum from the second she replaced in. In fact, she hasn't changed any of her reads from the start of the game. That's definitely suspect. It shows us that she's less interested in scumhunting and more interested in being right. That leaves Eagle. I've long said now that Eagle and Radiant made the most sense a scum pairing. Radiant went out of his way to stop an Eagle lynch from going through both today and yesterday. They act very much like partners. Whenever Radiant tells Eagle to do something, he obeys (remember the ProHawk lynch? or when he told Eagle to vote me?) Only recently has Radiant reluctantly voted Eagle... I had to drag him on the wagon kicking and screaming.

So, in short, you've pretty much got two scum in that group of three. I'm having to fend off both of them in addition to a player that has been tunneling me from the beginning of the game.

I would encourage you not to make perception reality. The only move to make is to lynch from the west side today. We have to figure out who is scum between Ranger and Eagle and then go forward from there.

[RedCoyote]

I can't blow up the thread like Radiant and make 20 posts every night begging Kahlan to lynch someone. It's kind of pathetic. I hope you don't let that unduly influence you, Kahlan. Please consider all the players independently. Don't just trust me or Radiant or Ranger or Eagle on what we say. You should know in your heart what's the right thing to do. That way, right or wrong, at least you can say you're the one that made the decision and you weren't pushed into it.

[RedCoyote]

To me, that works against Ranger. In comparison, I see Eagle as a player that has been evolving over the course of the game. One that has been staying abreast of the developments and natural ebb and flow of the game itself. That's not to say people's alignments change necessarily, but people's understandings of one another generally should change. Occasionally people are able to read the game accurately from very early on, but what I've found is usually the people that have the more "accurate" reads early on only get there because they know the alignments beforehand (read: they're scum).

It's because town doesn't know the other players' alignments that makes the fickle. They're necessarily going to go back and forth on players. They're still trying to gain footing and get a good read on the various players.

[RedCoyote]

But I do agree with Ranger when she says that we don't make sense as a partnership. It really remains that the only partnership that seems to make sense is Radiant and Eagle. There's kind of a case to be made for Radiant and Ranger, but less so, I think. It just goes down from there in terms of probability.

[RedCoyote]

So when you don't hammer Eagle, you're confirmed town. But when I don't hammer Eagle because I'm tired of your lies, all of a sudden I'm "throwing the game"? What a bunch of bs.

[RedCoyote]

Uh-huh. Keep spinning, Radiant.

[RedCoyote]

*applause*

Eagle, the act that you and Radiant have concocted is worthy of applause. You two did a great job staying away from each other this whole game.

All that I ask is that Radiant stop trying to spam the thread with lies. You have done a good job so far trying to separate yourself from Eagle, but I think I speak for all of us when I say we can see through your nonsense.

[RedCoyote]

hey RC you're saying that eagle is scum but you're not hammering him.

Why didn't you?

[RedCoyote]

Notice how Radiant can't explain why he left Eagle alive this long and is only now voting him after I pressured him to do so. All he can say is... "uh, Kahlan, please don't vote Eagle, vote for Red". No one wants to lynch Red and no one is voting Ranger... it's time for Radiant to admit he's scum and quit dragging this game along.

[RedCoyote]

So you say. I say I'm confirmed town, but hey. You've done a great job at selling Kahlan that I am scum, so I applaud you for that. Way to go in pulling out those big lies.

[RedCoyote]

Good luck on selling that, that's all I'm going to say.

[RedCoyote]

Dang, Radiant. You and Eagle ought to work as a team. Oh, wait, you two already do. It shows. Clearly.

[RedCoyote]

We can all claim confirmed town today given the votes, but only you keep pushing it. We'll see what happens. If Eagle flips scum, that all but confirms Radiant as his partner. If not, well, we'll have lost anyway. I'm happy with you hammering either of these players, Kahlan.

[RedCoyote]

Nice. That's fine with me. Both players being wagoned were scum, I think. Lynch Eagle today and Radiant tomorrow and we have the game won.

[RedCoyote]

Likely because you didn't think about it. You were more concerned about "looking town" than actually winning the game. It happens when you get overly cocky.

[RedCoyote]

Kahlan, what are you talking about? It's clear that Radiant is scum. Radiant is the only person that makes sense as a partner with Eagle. I was trying to get Eagle lynched all day on D3 and most of D2. Radiant was the one preventing it.

[RedCoyote]

I only got off the wagon at the very end because Radiant was clearly trying to screw with the game and try to get Ranger to vote me instead of Eagle. When he saw that he couldn't get me lynched yesterday, he gave up and voted Eagle.

[RedCoyote]

You get that, right? You're not going to vote me, are you? Look, just don't let yourself get suckered into what is an "easy" solution just because Radiant knows how to post 50 times a day. That's not a reason for lynching anyone. All of the dead thread is shouting as to why Radiant is alive in D4, and it's not because he's so damn good looking. It's because he's scum.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[RedCoyote]

Kahlan, what are you talking about? It's clear that Radiant is scum. Radiant is the only person that makes sense as a partner with Eagle. I was trying to get Eagle lynched all day on D3 and most of D2. Radiant was the one preventing it.

It's not clear that radiant is scum. Like he said before he is comfirmed town because He didn't hammer you when he could have in order to win the game if he was scum. So instead he voted eagle and was rightly to do so since eagle was scum. I dont think he would screw his partner over if they had the opportunity to win together. Also if you were trying to get eagle lynched and felt radiant is scum why did you just change your vote and hammer eagle? Instead you kept your vote on radiant with eagle.

As scum, it would be pretty clever to forego a hammer in order to then turn around and say, "oh, look, I'm confirmed town because I didn't hammer". As I've stated before. Radiant could've then started writing a larger post immediately after he posted out of arrogance only to see you unvote a couple of minutes after Eagle had put me in L-1. I agree that Eagle and Radiant were trying very hard to get me lynched yesterday, but I do not agree that that makes Radiant "confirmed town" in anyway.

He only voted Eagle after I forced him to. D2 he pushed an All In wagon instead of an Eagle wagon. D3 he spent most of the day pushing me. I voted Eagle most of the day yesterday, I only unvoted him when I got fed up with listening to Radiant try and spin the truth. At that point we were at a stalemate because I refused to unvote Radiant. He eventually caved and bussed his partner, but by then I only wanted Radiant to be lynched. If it loses me the game because I can get overly emotional as town, so be it. Radiant shouldn't be allowed to bully people into doing what he wants them to just because he's online 24/7.

[RedCoyote]

You get that, right? You're not going to vote me, are you? Look, just don't let yourself get suckered into what is an "easy" solution just because Radiant knows how to post 50 times a day. That's not a reason for lynching anyone. All of the dead thread is shouting as to why Radiant is alive in D4, and it's not because he's so damn good looking. It's because he's scum.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

How do you know what the dead thread is saying? Are we able to read the dead thread when we are alive? Also why didn't you message in our neighborhood if you aren't scum? You not writing seems kind of scummy to me.

Because I can hear those players banging their head against the wall from here. Radiant does not live to D4 as town. He posts too much and is online too often. He's very often killed off early. Instead the person that was killed on N1 was... ProHawk? The same ProHawk that suspected Radiant/Frozen?

I didn't post in the neighborhood because I forgot about it, lol. Anyways, the past two nights have been kind of pointless.

[RedCoyote]

The only pairings that made sense yesterday were:

Kahlan-Eagle
RC-Ranger
Radiant-Eagle

Let's not forget this. No one was able to successfully explain how there could've been any other pairings. This is because Ranger and myself were both voting Eagle for most of D3. At the very end of the day I decided to vote Radiant because he was actively trying to stop the Eagle lynch. Then he voted Eagle and said, "I give. RC, get back on Eagle". I'm not just going to follow Radiant's orders because then he would've said, "Oh, I got RC to vote Eagle, that make me confirmed town". He's not confirmed town. He spent the entire day trying to stop Eagle from getting lynched until the very last second. It's so clear to me that he is playing games here.

If you do decide to lynch me, Kahlan, at least I can die knowing that I stood up to Radiant when no one else in this game would. Since D2 I have been calling him out as scum. No one here can pin a town loss on me. No one. If I have to lose in standing up to Radiant, I will gladly do that over letting him buddy up to me and falling for his slickness.

[RedCoyote]

The only time I've ever "sung" in a thread is when I was a scum confident in victory.

[RedCoyote]

From my point of view, I'm also literally confirmed town. So I'm feeling good.

[RedCoyote]

gg all. That was a fun one. Tough way to end it, but town did good.

[RedCoyote]

Now that the sting has subsided, really great job to the town. I mean that sincerely. Especially Radiant/Ranger and ProHawk. Y'alls reads were money for the most part, especially Ranger.

Radiant, I don't think the plan was necessarily to frame you outside of the Frozen kill (which, in retrospect, I obviously now wish we'd have went in a different direction). As you may have seen in the scum thread, I was intensely worried about Frozen flipping on us and taking your side going into D3 after she showed signs of easing her scumread of you. At the time, the other options did not seem very appealing. I did not particularly want to go 1-on-1 with you given the aforementioned Frozen issue as well as what I assumed would be Ranger's resilient interest in lynching me after All In flipped town (which was effectively two votes against me going into D3). The same thing would've happened, more or less, had we lynched you, only Frozen would've been even more of a variable. Essentially it boiled down to either getting Kahlan or keeping Frozen on our side, and we decided to go with Kahlan. Eagle, to his credit, probably would have went the opposite direction (and lynched Kahlan). That may have worked, who knows?

Of course, the death knell was Kahlan voting me and you posting. There was absolutely no way of talking out of that. Thus the scramble of any plans of shooting for two lylos and shifting gears toward a Ranger lynch D3.

It was a fun game though. I would love to see it in all of the multiverses of N2. One where we lynched Radiant, one where we lynched Kahlan and one where we lynched Ranger.

I would love to play with any of y'all again. Thanks to Eagle for being a solid partner and thanks to the Mod for hosting a very tight game.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, like I said, I would pay money to see this conclusion of this game in another universe where we had done something like that.