Mini 1770: College Mafia! (Game Ovah)

[Aeronaut]

VC 1.14

VC 1.14

(With 13 students still enrolled, it's 7 to Lynch!)

- Northeastern University (Boston, MA) -

[L-7] Aristophanes -
[L-7] BlueBloodedToffee -

[L-5] Firebringer -

Thor665, Night Hunters

[L-6] GuiltyLion -

Jeanne11
[L-7] Jeanne11 -
[L-7] kirroha -

[L-3] massive -

GuiltyLion, tojam2, BlueBloodedToffee, SirCakez
[L-7] Night Hunters -

[L-6] Thor665 -

Firebringer
[L-7] shaddowez -

[L-3] SirCakez -

Aristophanes, massive, kirroha

[L-6] tojam2 -

shaddowez
[L-7] ɀefiend -

Not Voting

- ɀefiend

Mod Notes:

Deadline is this Saturday!
shaddowez is V/LA
Titus Head is V/LA

Final Exams begin in

(expired on 2016-03-12 17:20:32)

[Thor665]

Overnight - Nigh Hunter makes a move I agree with for reasons that are unclear to me.
Firebringer continues to claim scum by playing AtE bombs against both people voting him while tryingto appear playful and making 5+ posts with zero scumhunting in them.
The rest of the thread sleeps and continues to miss the scum claims, or is sitting there scared to comment on the ongoing events for reasons that also escape me.

Not sad with the current vote count, that one will be atreasure trove later. I am intrigued that as I come in and start a hard push on scum the massive wagon disintegrates and the Cake wagon builds. I have no idea what that means now, but on the off chance I'm not around later I'd just like to note to everyone that a few flipped alignments will make that one super interesting.

[shaddowez]

Caught up to Thor's replace in - Welcome Thor!

Thoughts so far below, will get to more later:

I don't think I ever pushed NH, I poked at them to get a reaction and develop a read. If I were pushing them I'd be voting them.

My phrasing there isn't clear though, at the time I was null on SirCakez. I wanted to emphasize that I didn't think their reasons for scumreading him were all that alignment indicative. Basically, instead of reading it as "I'm seeing him scum, but not as much as they are", which seems to be how you're interpreting it, it should be read like "I see what they're saying, but I don't think it necessarily makes him scum".

I thought their points in 83 were valid, but then their 90 was way overconfident and I don't see pro-town motivation in it. Further, 106 didn't really show any of the deeper level thinking or doubt that I was looking for with my question, it was just "he's scummy". Again, I didn't really disagree with their points about SC, but I didn't think they were as indicative as NH seemingly thinks they are in 90 and 106.

Maybe pushed was too strong - you certainly looked interested in going down that avenue though. The avenue you led them down with your question.

Your phrasing was perfectly clear but now you're trying to change it. It's not 'how I'm interpreting it' it's exactly what your words were saying.

So the reason I asked that question to NH is because I'm not seeing SirCakez

as strongly scum as they are

- their push feels forced.

The 'as' is key, it implies you at least agree to an extent with what NH are seeing. So it's pretty scummy for you to try and turn this around to say I'm interpreting your posts incorrectly, I think you realised you couldn't respond to my post and as such needed to try and change the original meaning of what you wrote.

I liked his question to NH in 103 and his explanation in 108. I can see not liking his later posts, although 204 looks like he did actually put thought into what he was doing and is able to explain it again.

Tell me specifically what you liked about his question and explanation because I have a serious problem with both of them. What do you think of the above regarding GL? What can you see to 'dislike' about GL's posting?

This is several hundred posts ago now so is outdated, but will still respond. 103 tries to understand tojam's reasoning, which reads like town to me. The time frame is something that didn't stick out to anyone else, but he brought it up. Additionally, unless he was scum with FB or SC, I don't think he would bring up the question to NH about the buddying.

In 108 he explains his motivation for the question he asked, in enough detail that it didn't sound like he was just blowing you off.

Things I don't like about his posting are in many of his posts, he seems to be trying to loosely frame arguments so that they can be taken either way and frame arguments against people. I'm not sure this is inherently scummy or just the way GL plays, but it's definitely something I don't like. This kind of ties into your point above regarding your response to 204.

VOTE: massive

Why the naked massive vote? You were very interested in his wagon early on, then mention in 315 that he's in your lynch pool, but never really give an explanation.

le sigh. I posted what I could from the first four pages. Will try to catch up but life (college!) is really hectic as of late. If I cannot give this game much commitment even after tomorrow I'll sincerely apologise and replace out.

Sooo....this still hasn't happened. You've posted a few random things, many of which point to other people's lack of posting. You then use that specifically as a defense in 362

So kirroha is probably scum then, any interns please CC now or this wagon Will start rolling VOTE: kirroha

So your only reason for believe she's scum is because she doesn't believe your claim? Is everyone that doesn't believe a PR claim scum, or is this basically an OMGUS?

VOTE: massive I'm happy with that wagon now the kirroha one is basically dead.

This was 9 posts later...how did the wagon even have time to build, let alone be dead?

ISO'ing massive to figure out what's with the interest in wagoning him because that's all I have time to do atm but will promise to read more thoroughly later. Like I like this role and all but if I can't commit to this game then I'll get myself replaced with someone who can play it better.

You do your "ISO" of massive in 358 where you say that he looks "fine". You say you want to read again to decide on a GL or a massive wagon, then just decide on massive two posts later. In 426 you randomly jump on the SC wagon, because you want to get a reaction on the second largest wagon...Yeah, I'm not liking this at all.

VOTE: kirroha

[tojam2]

Sorry guys, back late and I was due to play Civ V with some friends from work 5 minutes ago, will catch up tomorrow.

[PeregrineV]

Prod received. Sorry, close week is extending as I update reports.

[kirroha]

I don't like Firebringer. But I don't want to lynch claimed PRs on day 1. Besides, he alleges that his role will be proven in time so I'll let him be today, unless I get a stronger read on him today.

Cake is second biggest wagon. Pushing gets reads. Smaller wagons unlikely to react to single votes.

Kirroha has half a brain, or should I say

Radiant Cowballs

?

okay

GL, are you reading Shadow as town for 214 or is it just a townie looking post? To me, it looks like a whole load of easy questions that scum could ask and outside of that, Shadow is a non-presence. I'm also happy with your 318 as a response.

Just a townie looking post. I agree that it's conceivably fakeable from scum, but backing me up being against PLs while still saying it doesn't make you scum mirrored my own thoughts closely. However writing out that sentence makes me realize that it is actually pretty similar to exactly what I had already said in the thread.

I see Massive as town because no good reason has been provided to scumread massive and SirCakez and GL want it. GL being Mr. Repeat the same question already asked and answered three times is shitty. His response that he didn't vet his own wagon is crap too.

This is bullshit. When I question a wagon, you say I "have a reason to attack any wagon" in 245. Then when I don't question people who are on a wagon because I think it is a good wagon, you frame that as if it is scummy. You've set up a situation where you can call me scum if I push against wagons or if I don't.

This early VT claim makes me a little less sure about this wagon.

Can you explain at what point you were more sure about the wagon? Because your jump on it was extremely tentative, you said in 350 , 355, and 358, you didn't have anything really scummy from massive, but then jumped on in 360 because BBT asked you to. Immediately afterwards in 362 you were still casting doubt on the wagon.

This seems like odd phrasing to jump off, because I don't get the sense that you were sure at any point when voting him.

Yeah, I don't think I was even trying to deny it. I jumped on massive's wagon because BBT told me to. I'm finding it very hard to get reads in this game so the only thing I can really do for now is to push people.

But I don't want to lynch him with that L-2 VT claim. I just can't seem to find a reason why scum would lock themselves into a VT claim at L-2 when they could just stay silent and then at L-1 then decide a claim, either VT or a PR in an attempt to smoke out real town PRs. I can't think of any scum motivation for a VT claim at L-2, unless for some reason massive knew exactly I am going to react to his claim this way, and I doubt that.

So yeah, on to push the next person.

I think everyone else should lay off Firebringer for now imo. We have plenty of time to push him tomorrow. If he's really a town PR scum will deal with him and if they don't, we can interrogate him later.

[Thor665]

I think everyone else should lay off Firebringer for now imo. We have plenty of time to push him tomorrow. If he's really a town PR scum will deal with him and if they don't, we can interrogate him later.

Except he's not, and has already laid his groundwork defense for that, so we should axe him now.

[shaddowez]

Hey everyone. I've read the most recent vote count and, oddly, massive's posts, and nothing else. I don't even think he sounds scummy, but a large wagon sounds sexy, so;

Vote: Massive

L-1

Why is there a mega wagon and so many vanity wagons at the same time? That seems silly.


[L-5] GuiltyLion - Jeanne11, Night Hunters
[L-6] kirroha - Firebringer
[L-5] SirCakez - Aristophanes, massive
[L-6] tojam2 - shaddowez

@Shaddowez
@Firebringer

What's up with your wagons? Why are you supporting them and not the mega massive (pun intended) wagon? All the cool kids are wagoning hard, why aren't you?

@Aristophanes - how do you feel about your vanity wagon now that the top suspect in the game is voting it?

@Jeanne11
@Night Hunters

In a very sad way, you guys, functionally, are leading the second biggest wagon in the game. Talk to me about your thoughts on Guilty Lion and also on massive.

I mildly have a town read on Firebringer.
Is zefend a lurksack? If not I have a slight town lean there also, I guess I'll look in a second.

My vote was where it was because that's who I found scummiest at the time. I was V/LA since Friday afternoon, so quite a bit had changed.

Regarding the massive wagon, what do you think of the people on it at the time? What do you think of kirroha and her vote jumps?

So much for my hope that Pere's iso would have any insights.

Reading Firebringer makes me want to do this;

Unvote: Massive
Vote: Firebringer

Dead serious vote here.
Anyone who knows me and how I like to pressure wagons should recognize how serious this is since I actually unvoted an L-1 *prior* to seeing a reaction.
Sheep now, please and thank you.

I feel like this is a brazen move for scum to make this early in the game. I've only played in one game with Thor (that I can remember) and we were both scum. This feels sort of how that game went, but he didn't bus until

much

later in the game.

Man, I'm kinda happy with my wagon too. Two votes are purely self-preservation, one is bandwagoning what is, best I can tell, a neutral read, and BBT is still mistaking "contribution" for actual scumminess. I don't know, maybe GL is even self-preservation at this point.

At least I don't have a PR to go claiming, I guess.

Gonna go here:

VOTE: SirCakez who switched from WKing me to voting me (ostensibly) because I didn't move my vote off of Firebringer? OK.

This early VT claim makes me a little less sure about this wagon.

UNVOTE:

I don't see how it benefits scum to lock themselves into a VT claim of all things at L-2.

VOTE: SirCakez

I'm looking elsewhere for now.

Why wouldn't scum claim VT? If they claim a PR, they have to come up with results that can eventually be proven wrong.

FB is always impossible for me to read, so I'm willing to sheep Thor for now. I'm likely to move my vote back to kirroha if nothing comes of it though.

VOTE: Firebring

[kirroha]

I'm not saying scum won't claim VT. I'm saying there's no scum motivation in claiming VT at L-2 with 5 days still before the deadline. VT is a bad role to lock yourself into because it means he can't claim anything else if he changes his mind later and wants to smoke out a town PR. VT is the kind of claim scum would make at L-1 and when an intent to hammer is out there, not long before. That's just what I think at least.

[Thor665]

Regarding the massive wagon, what do you think of the people on it at the time? What do you think of kirroha and her vote jumps?

I found Cake the only obviouslly objectionable vote, though Kirroha's was a solid runner up in skeeviness.
I don't find vote jumping to be inherently scummy, and the timeline of the move off of massive seems reasonable to me unless Kirroha had posted since massive's claim and didn't unvote, and then unvoted now. But if the timeline is how it is presented by Kirroha I am fine with it. I actually like people who can be liquid with their votes and find those who decided a vote is somehow a "lock" to be a bit odd in playstyle.

I've only played in one game with Thor (that I can remember) and we were both scum. This feels sort of how that game went, but he didn't bus until

much

later in the game.

This choice of language is super interesting in a Freudian sense.
I think we may revisit it later.
But for now I really appreciate the vote, and it certainly makes the wagon situation more interesting.

[Thor665]

I'm not saying scum won't claim VT. I'm saying there's no scum motivation in claiming VT at L-2 with 5 days still before the deadline. VT is a bad role to lock yourself into because it means he can't claim anything else if he changes his mind later and wants to smoke out a town PR. VT is the kind of claim scum would make at L-1 and when an intent to hammer is out there, not long before. That's just what I think at least.

Eh, the real question is what does massive tend to fakeclaim when scum.
The value work would be to go look at some of his games when he was scum and see how he reacted - until then, the sheer fact that two players have two differing opinions showcases that "what scum would do" depends more on the player than on the alignment.

That said, I will agree with Shaddow that it was, at least, a sub-optimal scum move, so tends to make me lean less likely scum as an action in itself.

Wanna vote Firebird now?

[kirroha]

I think everyone else should lay off Firebringer for now imo. We have plenty of time to push him tomorrow. If he's really a town PR scum will deal with him and if they don't, we can interrogate him later.

Except he's not, and has already laid his groundwork defense for that, so we should axe him now.

Can you explain this a bit more? You may be able to convince me.

[tojam2]

He might be able to convince me too.

[Aeronaut]

Prodding Jeanne11

[Firebringer]

Thor if you can convince me I am scum I'll give you a gold star.
Then tell at the mod for giving me wrong role card.

[GuiltyLion]

So my question back is - what has he done that remotely seems like something scum wouldn't do and why?

Also, while we're at it, what do you think of his reaction to me?
Do you see that as a town reaction of someone who felt the need to hint being a town PR?
Or do you see that as nervous scum recognizing that he is busted?

Because I know what it looks like to me, and it's so blatant I am concerned that you don't see it - so what do you see?

My thinking is that Fire isn't stupid, he knows what will draw attention to himself and what won't. If he is scum, claiming a PR early may save him from being a lynch target D1, but when D2 and D3 roll around then he's going to need to hardclaim to explain why he's alive and at that point he's likely SOL if he doesn't have a rock-solid fakeclaim. I don't see why he would resort to such a gambit so early.

Frankly I don't see anything in his ISO that scum wouldn't do, but that's kind of my problem with this wagon, if he's scum here then his survival strategy is solely to claim PR then pollute the thread with WIFOM. I would expect scum to try harder.

As far as his reaction to you, I'm also not sure that scum would encourage you to continue pushing him like he did in 435.

[GuiltyLion]

Why the naked massive vote? You were very interested in his wagon early on, then mention in 315 that he's in your lynch pool, but never really give an explanation.

I've been waiting for someone to question me about that vote actually.

I generally agree with BBT (a strong townread) that massive isn't contributing anything to advance his reads or the gamestate at large. A lot of his gameplay early on was centered around me (188, 211, 243, 247), but by the end of our back and forth I felt he was townreading me and yet not pursuing anyone else, other than pushing on Fire after his PR soft. I think he's coasting, and I also wanted to try to bait a reaction to me voting him without explaining any reasons.

Kirroha tentatively jumping on but then jumping off again at basically a moment's notice makes me lean scum on her, regardless of massive's alignment (and also gives me more reason to townread SirCakez for pointing it out). I'm keeping my vote on massive because I don't particularly like the Fire or Cakez CWs, but I'd be even happier with a kirroha wagon and I'm disappointed you moved your vote from her to Fire so quickly.

[Thor665]

I think everyone else should lay off Firebringer for now imo. We have plenty of time to push him tomorrow. If he's really a town PR scum will deal with him and if they don't, we can interrogate him later.

Except he's not, and has already laid his groundwork defense for that, so we should axe him now.

Can you explain this a bit more? You may be able to convince me.

I am so frustrated by this sort of stuff, because of the following reasons;

1. It's making me show my hand before he is locked in hard.
2. That gives him more future wiggle room

But, that said, it is pretty clear that no one is either seeing what I'm seeing, or willing to sheep me, and we're getting closer to deadline than is optimal anyway, so, fine, here are a few more cards on the table for the three of you expressing at least guarded awareness/questions.

Okay, here's his big claim;

Unfortunately for you and everyone else. I have a PR this game. So lynching me isn't really that good of an idea to just to get rid of a hard to read slot.

Bam - empty and meaningless, or is it?
Let's look at the rest of his iso for thoughts. It's mostly emptiness and dorking around except for this gem.

Since I am never getting night killed anyways.

How many PRs would "never get night killed"?
Get it?
He's setting himself up as a slot that can do nothing all day, and justify lack of death late game.
But he blew it because I know he's scum, and also if you look at his reaction to me, he knows I know, and it's pretty apparent.

My thinking is that Fire isn't stupid, he knows what will draw attention to himself and what won't. If he is scum, claiming a PR early may save him from being a lynch target D1, but when D2 and D3 roll around then he's going to need to hardclaim to explain why he's alive and at that point he's likely SOL if he doesn't have a rock-solid fakeclaim. I don't see why he would resort to such a gambit so early.

Because there's like zero risk and it drags an otherwise quick lynch into lylo?
Y'know, also called Scum 101.

Frankly I don't see anything in his ISO that scum wouldn't do, but that's kind of my problem with this wagon

I...
You...

As far as his reaction to you, I'm also not sure that scum would encourage you to continue pushing him like he did in 435.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that he knew two things.

1. That I didn't need encouragement, and would have pushed him regardless.
2. That no one would take that as a reason to vote him.

So why *wouldn't* he get cheeky and say that? It costs him nothing, hurts him in no way, and let's him avoid analyzing me (even though, as town, i would think you'd be curious why someone is super convinced you're town - but he's acting like it's a joke that doesn't concern him...which is what scum do to avoid having the case on them made center stage.)

[Firebringer]

ugh, I am sick of addressing posts. I will wait till something strikes me as actually scummy. Because Thor is wasting time on me, and everyone keeps discussing it.

we should be actually hunting scum instead of this.

[Thor665]

Dodge, dip, dive, duck, and dodge.

[Firebringer]

Dodge, dip, dive, duck, and dodge.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!"-Dodgeball Movie

[tojam2]

What FB says is true Thor.

[Thor665]

I agree that the quote is from Dodgeball.

In other news - respond to my case now, please and thank you.

[massive]

What FB says is true Thor.

You said you "could be convinced" on Firebringer. This seems to say either that you aren't, or that something Firebringer has said has convinced you the other way. What was it that Firebringer said that had that much impact?

[Thor665]

@Massive - in other news, you could also offer your own thoughts on my case.

And then sheep me.