Mini 1770: College Mafia! (Game Ovah)

[Thor665]

Hey everyone. I've read the most recent vote count and, oddly, massive's posts, and nothing else. I don't even think he sounds scummy, but a large wagon sounds sexy, so;

Vote: Massive

L-1

Why is there a mega wagon and so many vanity wagons at the same time? That seems silly.


[L-5] GuiltyLion - Jeanne11, Night Hunters
[L-6] kirroha - Firebringer
[L-5] SirCakez - Aristophanes, massive
[L-6] tojam2 - shaddowez

@Shaddowez
@Firebringer

What's up with your wagons? Why are you supporting them and not the mega massive (pun intended) wagon? All the cool kids are wagoning hard, why aren't you?

@Aristophanes - how do you feel about your vanity wagon now that the top suspect in the game is voting it?

@Jeanne11
@Night Hunters

In a very sad way, you guys, functionally, are leading the second biggest wagon in the game. Talk to me about your thoughts on Guilty Lion and also on massive.

I mildly have a town read on Firebringer.
Is zefend a lurksack? If not I have a slight town lean there also, I guess I'll look in a second.

[Thor665]

Zefend isn't a lurker, but, eh, he is kinda putting his vote into loose play via the catchup unvote. I'll call him null for now.

[Thor665]

So much for my hope that Pere's iso would have any insights.

Reading Firebringer makes me want to do this;

Unvote: Massive
Vote: Firebringer

Dead serious vote here.
Anyone who knows me and how I like to pressure wagons should recognize how serious this is since I actually unvoted an L-1 *prior* to seeing a reaction.
Sheep now, please and thank you.

[Thor665]

How can you expect us to follow you when you haven't really done anything to justify yourself?

Because it's a good wagon, I'm a forceful personality, and I have presented a valid case to anyone who can understand it. And if you can't, eh, maybe as the wagon gets bigger you'll bandwagon on general principle. Do you have a town read on him? If not - it's already a decent wagon, and will only get better if I do get some bodies, and looking at the playerlist I suspect at least a few will either understand me, or grok the meta reality of how serious I am and at least sheep on that.

On the flip side - what's your boggle with massive? I read his posts and don't see it really. His wagon also got a weird surge over a very short time - that doesn't make you wonder at all? I mean, if I wasn't voting Firebird for my reasons I would have flipped out over how skeevy SirCake's vote was. Can you explain your massive case and respond to my thoughts on Cake's vote in particular? Why are you happy where you're at?

Why are people still voting GL though? I knew he was town when he started pressuring me with a wagon and some pretty compelling evidence to back it up (lots, although Newbie 1667 proves contribution is non-alignment indicative).

I do applaud you for attacking the strongest apparent counter wagon to your wagon, but, just to clarify, you're stating that he is town because he attacked you via meta that is easily disproven?

Why does that make you feel good about him as opposed to, y'know, thinking he is either playing poorly (in which case why should it convince anyone he's town) or is playing in a fake way (in which case he is scum and it makes sense that people would scumread him). Your stated evidence seems to suggest the opposite of your stated conclusion - what am I missing here?

[Thor665]

I feel frustrated I cannot get more votes on Cakey Thor. You thought his vote was bad, then why try to start a new wagon?

I do think Cake's vote was bad and showed scum mindset.
I'm voting for Fire over that while expressing only broad meta tells that I'm not explaining.
Do I really need to spell this out for you, or are you going to sheep me now?

Thor, I am disappointed you left the massive wagon.

I am disappointed that you are not addressing my reasons for doing so or offering a valid explanation of why the massive wagon is good to lure me back in a proactive manner, and are instead doing this.

Could you sheep me while you try to decide on how to explain your massive case? I promise good things.

You went from calling Firebringer a mild town read to adamantly voting for him. I cannot try to understand reasoning that is non-existent. Please, present your case, preferably without any more ethos appeals.

I did not make any ethos appeals.
I don't see the issue with me reversing on an immediately presented gut read at a point I was openly stating that I hadn't read the game to then calling him a scum read after I claimed to have read his posts - in fact that seems like the opposite of something that is not understandable.

What is confusing about it to you?

[Thor665]

Thor what do you think of Fire claiming PR? Did it affect your read at all?

Yes.
Currently my read on him is scum.

[Thor665]

Thor gives me bad vibes. :I

-Dad

If I had voted Cake in support of you mere moments ago when you asked me to would I have given you good vibes? Or was I already giving you bad vibes at that point and you asked me to back you up regardless?

If I wasn't giving you bad vibes prior to that - what about my response to you gives you bad vibes?

[Thor665]

So you think he semi-randomly claimed PR early on as scum, correct?

No, I think he's town and want to lynch him regardless.

Yes - I think he's scum.
Yes - I think he made some claims.

[Thor665]

Was my tone not off when you asked me to back your wagon of choice? Like, if you suspected him, and I'm a scummy seeming person who also suspects him shouldn't that positively affect your read on him or on me? Instead you seemed to suspect both, but only after I turned you down (something I made quite clear that I would prior to your ask, unless you thought me mentioning Cake's scummy posting was equivalent to the level of fervor I expressed towards my Fire read). I'm asking because the logic flow here seems really off, I don't ask people I think are scummy to back me up in lyching someone - do you?

If yes, why?
In no...then what happened here?

[Thor665]

I don't think you being a hydra affects my questions to you, but if you think they do please let me know how.
If they don't, could you answer the question?

[Thor665]

Oh, wait, or are you saying Titus was the one who asked for support? That would make some sense.

[Thor665]

Hurm, that post wasn't signed, but I will take by inference that you are saying it was Titus.
My counter then to your gut read is - ask Titus about my usual "tone" and then come back and clarify if you still think this is how I play as scum but not as town. I think that will save me a headache and you time.

In the meantime - on the basis that I agree Cake is screwy and massive is bad, please sheep me on Firebird.
Seriously - ask Titus to read my entrance and Fire's claim again in context, then sheep.

[Thor665]

So your question is completely unrelated to me. *shrugs*

Meh, you are one account, deal.

[Thor665]

Thor, you're asking me to read subtext. I struggle with that. I also hate meta. I could do fire but it's not a wagon I am thrilled by.

My case is not meta - I *am* using meta (and specifically saying it is only for those who know me) to help clarify how serious I am about this case (which, is also a bit important for those who know me ) but meta is not part of the case. Replace meta with "I'm seriously serious" and you have gone as far as you need to go with meta for the case.

Subtext...yes, that is part of the case, and, in truth, is basically 100% of the case as stands. I am admitting that, and also am willing to admit that it is the totality thereof. That said - do you have a town read on Firebird? DO you see that player's actions as protown? Do you see my reads, as presented, as townish insomuch as I am apparently ahving a few similar thoughts to your own? If so, and if you don't have a strong case you can generate support towards, why not hop in on this case, at least for a while, to see where it goes and what happens.

Worst case - you take a stand, and can read some reactions, and then decide you don't support the case.
Best case - we lynch scum, and I feel manly and am a stallion in bed with my girlfriend.

Like, seriously, what is the concerning downside here?

You make me sad that you are missing it though.

I will keep looking to see what you're getting at since I am pretty sure you're town.

Your hydra gut is out of control.

[Thor665]

@Thor, The why don't you hop on thing goes both ways and Cakes is the larger wagon?

Because subtext.

I did have a strong case that had support from Toejam and Shaddowez? Why can't you sheep us?

State the case - but, as already said, I have issues with that slot and am actively choosing to vote this slot over it for very serious reasons.
Clearly I am not stating those reasons for...well, a reason.
Why is this so complicated of a concept to grok?
You've never seen this in a game before?

[Thor665]

I strongly disagree with that.

Do you have any particular logic to back up that belief, or is it a gut read vs. my unwilling to explain textural case?
Because if so...meh, gut is less strong, and that's saying something because my case is weak to everyone but me and those who can get it.

[Thor665]

Read his ISO. If that isnt town tone idk what is.

You read my tone as scummy - so I will admit that I don't trust your tone read abilities.

Also, I have read his iso - it reads to me as scum.

[Thor665]

There are a lot of things that can ping my tonedar so *shrug*. Maybe you're weird.
-Dad

OMGUsing people is fun:
VOTE: Thor665

So the scum is pretty much highly aware that they are caught.
The rest of you should take notice and, y'know, start that "sheep" thing I mentioned.
I promise good things.

VOTE: SirCakez

I'm looking elsewhere for now.

I like the target, I hate the vote.

1. Why Cake?

2. Why not Firebringer? (and, as an addendum to this question - what are your thoughts about his nervously self-noted OMGUS on me after I claimed I caught him as scum, like, you find that the townie reaction? Y'know, when you play as scum and someone is like "I *know* you are scum" your immediate reaction is to vote them, laugh it off as OMGUS, and not start demanding to, y'know, ask 'why' they claim to know you're scum, since clearly they have to be wrong, and also it would be slightly psychotic for scum to try a 1 v 1 on Day 1, so...y'know, they're either incredibly bad scum you ought to be able to own, or really mistaking town you should try to sort...that's how you'd play it, right, with an OMGUS? Talk me through your reaction, or specifically your lack of one, to that.)

@Titus ^^^ Read #2, then sheep me. Thanks!

[Thor665]

When you play as *town.

Sorry, too clear in my head Fire's alignment.

[Thor665]

I don't like Firebringer. But I don't want to lynch claimed PRs on day 1.

He is a softclaimed PR who has dropped hints about his role and they are not particularly screaming town to me, I am kind of confused that they say town enough to you to give him a walk this day.

You also didn't address the second half of #2, which fills me with maddening rage, why didn't you?

Cake is second biggest wagon. Pushing gets reads. Smaller wagons unlikely to react to single votes.

So you don't find him individually scummy for anything in particular?

@Cakez - That would make massive town, or Kirrho a bussing buddy.
Which are you claiming?

[Thor665]

Why that as opposed to scum sensing the wagon decline on a town and looking to scuttle or scum thinking it's going to be pushed through and not wanting to be part of it now that it has momentum?

[Thor665]

Thor - why would scum!Firebringer claim a PR on D1 at the slightest sign of pressure? What does scum gain from that? He saves himself for a day or two at most.

"Thor, why would scum claim a PR over a VT" is what you're asking me here.
To which my answer is - because that's what most scum do...like, easily over 50% of scum claims when they happen claim a PR because that's proper scum play.
Like, as a reverse, how often do you see scum claim VT versus PR?

Now, on the presumption that you agree with me that most scum claim a PR the only raised issue here is the *when*, not the claim, but that it happened on Day 1.
That said, read between the lines on what he's claiming and recognize that he is literally making one of the single safest scum PR claims in the game *while still keeping it vague enought hat if he needed to change it he could and would have plausible deniability*.

At that point what you're asking me is "Thor, why would scum softly hint at something to avoid being a lynch target" to which my answer is - "why wouldn't they, that's what scum want - to *not* be a lynch target. Because if scum don't get lynched, odds are they win the game, so he is, in fact, doing exactly what scum should do."

So my question back is - what has he done that remotely seems like something scum wouldn't do and why?

Also, while we're at it, what do you think of his reaction to me?
Do you see that as a town reaction of someone who felt the need to hint being a town PR?
Or do you see that as nervous scum recognizing that he is busted?

Because I know what it looks like to me, and it's so blatant I am concerned that you don't see it - so what do you see?

[Thor665]

Overnight - Nigh Hunter makes a move I agree with for reasons that are unclear to me.
Firebringer continues to claim scum by playing AtE bombs against both people voting him while tryingto appear playful and making 5+ posts with zero scumhunting in them.
The rest of the thread sleeps and continues to miss the scum claims, or is sitting there scared to comment on the ongoing events for reasons that also escape me.

Not sad with the current vote count, that one will be atreasure trove later. I am intrigued that as I come in and start a hard push on scum the massive wagon disintegrates and the Cake wagon builds. I have no idea what that means now, but on the off chance I'm not around later I'd just like to note to everyone that a few flipped alignments will make that one super interesting.

[Thor665]

I think everyone else should lay off Firebringer for now imo. We have plenty of time to push him tomorrow. If he's really a town PR scum will deal with him and if they don't, we can interrogate him later.

Except he's not, and has already laid his groundwork defense for that, so we should axe him now.

[Thor665]

Regarding the massive wagon, what do you think of the people on it at the time? What do you think of kirroha and her vote jumps?

I found Cake the only obviouslly objectionable vote, though Kirroha's was a solid runner up in skeeviness.
I don't find vote jumping to be inherently scummy, and the timeline of the move off of massive seems reasonable to me unless Kirroha had posted since massive's claim and didn't unvote, and then unvoted now. But if the timeline is how it is presented by Kirroha I am fine with it. I actually like people who can be liquid with their votes and find those who decided a vote is somehow a "lock" to be a bit odd in playstyle.

I've only played in one game with Thor (that I can remember) and we were both scum. This feels sort of how that game went, but he didn't bus until

much

later in the game.

This choice of language is super interesting in a Freudian sense.
I think we may revisit it later.
But for now I really appreciate the vote, and it certainly makes the wagon situation more interesting.

[Thor665]

I'm not saying scum won't claim VT. I'm saying there's no scum motivation in claiming VT at L-2 with 5 days still before the deadline. VT is a bad role to lock yourself into because it means he can't claim anything else if he changes his mind later and wants to smoke out a town PR. VT is the kind of claim scum would make at L-1 and when an intent to hammer is out there, not long before. That's just what I think at least.

Eh, the real question is what does massive tend to fakeclaim when scum.
The value work would be to go look at some of his games when he was scum and see how he reacted - until then, the sheer fact that two players have two differing opinions showcases that "what scum would do" depends more on the player than on the alignment.

That said, I will agree with Shaddow that it was, at least, a sub-optimal scum move, so tends to make me lean less likely scum as an action in itself.

Wanna vote Firebird now?

[Thor665]

I think everyone else should lay off Firebringer for now imo. We have plenty of time to push him tomorrow. If he's really a town PR scum will deal with him and if they don't, we can interrogate him later.

Except he's not, and has already laid his groundwork defense for that, so we should axe him now.

Can you explain this a bit more? You may be able to convince me.

I am so frustrated by this sort of stuff, because of the following reasons;

1. It's making me show my hand before he is locked in hard.
2. That gives him more future wiggle room

But, that said, it is pretty clear that no one is either seeing what I'm seeing, or willing to sheep me, and we're getting closer to deadline than is optimal anyway, so, fine, here are a few more cards on the table for the three of you expressing at least guarded awareness/questions.

Okay, here's his big claim;

Unfortunately for you and everyone else. I have a PR this game. So lynching me isn't really that good of an idea to just to get rid of a hard to read slot.

Bam - empty and meaningless, or is it?
Let's look at the rest of his iso for thoughts. It's mostly emptiness and dorking around except for this gem.

Since I am never getting night killed anyways.

How many PRs would "never get night killed"?
Get it?
He's setting himself up as a slot that can do nothing all day, and justify lack of death late game.
But he blew it because I know he's scum, and also if you look at his reaction to me, he knows I know, and it's pretty apparent.

My thinking is that Fire isn't stupid, he knows what will draw attention to himself and what won't. If he is scum, claiming a PR early may save him from being a lynch target D1, but when D2 and D3 roll around then he's going to need to hardclaim to explain why he's alive and at that point he's likely SOL if he doesn't have a rock-solid fakeclaim. I don't see why he would resort to such a gambit so early.

Because there's like zero risk and it drags an otherwise quick lynch into lylo?
Y'know, also called Scum 101.

Frankly I don't see anything in his ISO that scum wouldn't do, but that's kind of my problem with this wagon

I...
You...

As far as his reaction to you, I'm also not sure that scum would encourage you to continue pushing him like he did in 435.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that he knew two things.

1. That I didn't need encouragement, and would have pushed him regardless.
2. That no one would take that as a reason to vote him.

So why *wouldn't* he get cheeky and say that? It costs him nothing, hurts him in no way, and let's him avoid analyzing me (even though, as town, i would think you'd be curious why someone is super convinced you're town - but he's acting like it's a joke that doesn't concern him...which is what scum do to avoid having the case on them made center stage.)

[Thor665]

Dodge, dip, dive, duck, and dodge.

[Thor665]

I agree that the quote is from Dodgeball.

In other news - respond to my case now, please and thank you.

[Thor665]

@Massive - in other news, you could also offer your own thoughts on my case.

And then sheep me.

[Thor665]

But what Fire has hinted about his role so far makes me vaguely feel like his role is somewhat related to mine. Which makes me more inclined to believe his claim at least for now. In any case, he said his role can be proven eventually, so I'm willing to let that slide.

I expressed the hint about his role that I saw - and I don't think it makes it connected to anyone.
Could you at least give me a vague area to look for the hint you're getting? Because I'm not seeing it.

Everyone needs to take a minute and consider why they're lynching a claimed PR on D1. They will sort themselves out over time, lynching them D1 is super bad play and anti-town.

Did you read my explanation yet?
Because my reasoning is pretty solid, and this PR worship is weak.

[Thor665]

I did. Lynching a claimed PR is still awful on D1. If they're all still around on D3, then we can start talking.

I outlined in my case why I think it's a scum move, and why letting them wait around is meaningless - what did you think of those points?

I thought about Thor's argument against FB some more, and realized there's at least one scenario where FB still actually makes sense.

BBT, sheep me on Ari and I can almost guarantee a scum flip. I'll join you on Thor tomorrow if so.

How does that make sense, you're attacking someone for buddying me - scum don't need to buddy scumbuddies, that defeats the point of buddying.
Unless you're attacking him for something other than buddying - in which case, what?

Thor is nowhere near obvtown.

Yes, he is. The fact you've been attacking all the wagons that could hit scum is annoying.

[Thor665]

Even on the theory he has a PR and it is provable (neither of which I believe)
He could still be a scum PR with a provable claim - so tomorrow we still wouldn't know anything. Maybe he'd be a scum neighborizer or something, big whoop.
Also, maybe, even if he is town, scum have a roleblocker, and again nothing would be proven.

The wait for proof is meaningless - the question is whether he is scummy or not.
And he is.
Did you read his reactions to my push on him? That is blatant scum reaction.

[Thor665]

How do you read that I'm attacking someone for buddying you anywhere in there?

Were you attacking him for prod dodging/empty posting?

[Thor665]

I mean he had two sentences. One was buddying of me, the other was a dodge - I thought the buddying would make more sense to attack over, but then you said he was probably scum with me so it meant not.

It's why I asked for clarification, the attack isn't making a lot of sense to me.

[Thor665]

Why are you active lurking?

Because since you're reading this exchange you're clearly reading and not posting.

[Thor665]

This is at least interesting.

[Thor665]

This is even more interesting.SirCake has bounced way up in my scum rankings.
BBT has gone town.
Firebringer still needs the death today and it's pissing me off that I revealed cards and people *still* don't get it.

[Thor665]

There are many times and games where one does exactly that.

This is one of them.

Come on man, this isn't your first rodeo, why do you spout newbie theory to me as if it's gospel?

[Thor665]

Because it's basic mafia game play.

Emphasis on basic- but sure.
Your point?

So is LaL and that shouldn't be done either.

Thor, site meta has gone to Smurf while you've been away. Useless liars survive. Newbies and those who give a damn are the lynch wagons day 1. Anyone who actually pushes scum is an Smurfhole. Scum don't bus because they can just pick on noobs, insult people and lurk to victory.

At least they started using my scum methods, finally
I am feeling a different sort of vibe on site though, but I was only gone about 5 months...

Role madness would mean no VTs, yes.

Since when?

And if you believe that - why haven't you been voting massive and saying this?

[Thor665]

@SirCakez - remind me, why do you find me scummy. I must have forgotten in all this excitement.

[Thor665]

Both the Thor wagon and the NH wagon *reek* and no one seems to notice.

[Thor665]

Yeah, but voting someone you're willing to call scum is better than voting someone you're not and hiding behind the logic of "a lynch is better than no lynch" also. What of it?

[Thor665]

@SirCakez - remind me, why do you find me scummy. I must have forgotten in all this excitement.

Really don't like the Fire push.

Why?
Also - why is it a scummy push?

[Thor665]

Are we seriously going after another pr!?

Why does them claiming a PR matter in any way at all?

[Thor665]

Because Fire always plays like this. I learned that the hard way in another game as town where I pushed him for all the same reasons you are.

You are really not paying attention to my stated reasons.
Then again no one is.
Then again maybe I'm overestimating how clear I've made them.

You did read my "cards on the table" post, right?
Did you get anything from it at all - or did you have no idea what I was sayign and decided to ignore it and not ask for clarification?
I'm really wondering this because I am not having that case responded to and I'm thinking it means literally nobody understands what I'm saying but are refusing to admit it and ask me. Which is bonkers.

Because I knew they were sifting a PR from the get go with their "Mom" and "Dad" post signing. I had them as a strong townread because of this and due to their play!

Firstly - no, the Mom and Dad was not a soft for Tracker - and if you think it is I'd love to hear that explained.
Secondly - you're town reading them, *that's* what matters, right? Like, if they had claimed VT you'd still be town reading them, right? So...the PR bit doesn't matter.

Do you understand my "cards on the table" post? Like, what did you think I was saying?

And I'm thinking about your claim. That's like the fifth PR claim now though, some of these have to be false.

Yeah, probably at least one person has really had that claim called into question by now.
Who could it be...who...

[Thor665]

But what Fire has hinted about his role so far makes me vaguely feel like his role is somewhat related to mine. Which makes me more inclined to believe his claim at least for now. In any case, he said his role can be proven eventually, so I'm willing to let that slide.

I expressed the hint about his role that I saw - and I don't think it makes it connected to anyone.
Could you at least give me a vague area to look for the hint you're getting? Because I'm not seeing it.

@Kirroha

Also, did *you* understand my "cards on the table" post?
What did you think I was saying?

[Thor665]

I don't have a lot of time but Mum and Dad implied a protective role for me. Not tracker.

I don't buy it.

Is your argument that they were crumbing and then messed up their fake crumb of their fake role by claiming the wrong fake role?

[Thor665]

Like I understand why you're finding him scummy. What I don't understand is why we should lynch him today. We should let him at least have one night to prove his role.

Why do you think I'm finding him scummy?
Because if you even remotely were close to me I don't think you'd expect me to accept the idea of "give him a night to prove role"

You also didn't answer my other question for the third time - is that intentional? I can stop asking if you tell me you're intentionally ducking it, otherwise it's just weird and annoying and I'll keep bringing it up.

[Thor665]

"close to me = close to my case"

Youcan describe my case in a quick sentence or so, I don't need the whole shebang.
I just want to verify my suspicion that I have not correctly conveyed my case to you.

[Thor665]

More or less, but extrapolate out that I think he's claiming a role that can't be killed because he crumbed that, and then add in that the question you're not answering is that you are claiming he crumbed something else and I was asking you to give me at least some clue as to where he did so because I'm not seeing it at all.

[Thor665]

Also note that I told him that I knew he was lying and he didn't even ask how - but he did vote me.

**Hint**

[Thor665]

More or less, but extrapolate out that I think he's claiming a role that can't be killed because he crumbed that, and then add in that the question you're not answering is that you are claiming he crumbed something else and I was asking you to give me at least some clue as to where he did so because I'm not seeing it at all.

I'm treating "I cannot be NK'd" as a crumb.

So am I, and I'm telling you it's a lie.

[Thor665]

I know. And that's scummy.

No it's not.

[Thor665]

Because Fire always plays like this. I learned that the hard way in another game as town where I pushed him for all the same reasons you are.

You are really not paying attention to my stated reasons.
Then again no one is.
Then again maybe I'm overestimating how clear I've made them.

You did read my "cards on the table" post, right?
Did you get anything from it at all - or did you have no idea what I was sayign and decided to ignore it and not ask for clarification?
I'm really wondering this because I am not having that case responded to and I'm thinking it means literally nobody understands what I'm saying but are refusing to admit it and ask me. Which is bonkers.

@SirCakes

Are you intentionally ducking these questions?
If not - please answer them.
If so - please say so, in order that I don't need to keep repeating myself.

[Thor665]

I know. And that's scummy.

No it's not.

Uh, then why are you trying to lynch him if you don't think he's scum?

I thought you were calling it scummy of me.
If it's scummy of him THEN LET'S LYNCH HIM!
There's nothing for his role to prove - he is busted scum, we ruddy lynch busted scum.

[Thor665]

Thor - I looked for your cards on the table post but can't find it. Can you quote it or give me a post number?

ISOed myself.
Ctrl+F = card
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7733513
Done.

Like I honestly get where you're coming from and I understand that thought process. What I can't understand is why we can't do that tomorrow when we have more info. There are other scum. We can lynch other scum today.

Because the idea of lynching scum Day 1 gets me hot and bothered, and his reaction to me is so obv. busted scum it makes me salivate - that's why. The other major lynches being offered are some nulls and a moderate town read (incidentally one pushed to claim, yet no one was willing to pressure the busted scum).

No, I'm not really feeling this strategy - does it make sense from your end?

[Thor665]

Yes...okay, but maybe that paired with, y'know, the claim that his claim is false *is*.

[Thor665]

Wait, where did he admit his claim is false?

He hasn't, except insomuch as I have been repeatedly telling him it's a lie, and that I know this, and he hasn't even gone "hey now" at me for doing so, and actually just unvoted me to vote the other person who was voting me - read between the lines here.

First - I don't think Fire saying he won't get night killed is indicative. I haven't seen Fire get night killed like ever, his day play just isn't aggressive enough to be a threat.

Yeah, and he says this as a PR because...what, he's trying to fake people out? Both Kirroha and I see it as a crumb, you see it as just empty lamenting that is being done as an intentional misleading lie to fool scum?
Ockham's Razor.

And again, he usually does very little during the day. I already explained this part.[/qupte]
Don't care - not part of my case.

Then I don't see how his claim was empty and meaningless. He didn't even full claim.

I agree, I said as much.

I also don't see how Fire being cheeky means anything. He is always cheeky.

Always cheeky to the point of ignoring someone who is flat out claiming they know his claim is a lie? (a claim you say he hasn't even made clear, but he doesn't even toss that thought back in my face?)I don't think that makes sense.

@GuiltyLion - your play is atrocious and dodgy, I'm not compromising with you, and considering your past actions I find it disingenuous that you're trying to do so with me. Especially since there are so many other vanity wagons with less support than my wagon on Fire - why not address them? Firescum just amps up your tell here, better start prepping that defense, you can't get rid of me.

[Thor665]

Yeah, but at least the terribad wagon is a mine of info I suppose. I just can't get a read on it because literally everyone is , like, covering their ears and singing as they march onwards. I don't even think a case has been offered yet. The new site meta came up as fast and gnarly as a tequila hangover. It's kind of awe inspiring to watch.

Even if the "I won't get night killed" is a crumb I don't see how it relates to Fire being scum.

Because of how I'm reacting to it...? *hint*

[Thor665]

if you think we are that scummy for suggesting a lynch at deadline, then I will facepalm at you NH.

It has nothng to do with A lynch, it has everything to do with THIS lynch.
This lynch is bad, and has no case, and people are just voting it "derp, becahs DEDLIN!"
Doesn't that concern you at all?

[Thor665]

I mean, I guess if he's scum this wagon will be a vast wealth of good info.
But I'm not holding my breath.

[Thor665]

I was trying to get a wagon pushed through a few days ago so we could have a claim and discussion - and people called me scummy for pushing for a L-1 and a claim.
I was well aware that this was a potential issue and stated as much many real life days ago.

You should all move to Firebringer - even the best defense for him I have heard is "let's wait and let him prove himself" and "he's always derpy.

Here's a thought - tojam can "prove" his role with the "provable" role he'll get from Firebringer.
In addition tojam actually, y'know, doesn't just have a (as claimed by you) meta of intentioanlly not playing the game.

That makes a Firebringr lynch a win/win/win last I checked.
Which was just now.
Yup - still a win.

[Thor665]

Let me shoot a question back at you. Does the possibility of no lynch at deadline concern you at all?

Yes.

If you think you could form another wagon in six hours with some members being offline, then I will applaud you.

You're here, why don't you move?
I mean, between tojam and Firebringer - which do you think is more likely scum?

[Thor665]

So you are admitting that you do think Firebringer is more likely scum, so you are voting a stronger town read only due to the excuse of deadline - correct?

[Thor665]

And if you have fear of deadline - where were you four days ago?

[Thor665]

And if you have fear of deadline - where were you four days ago?

Thor, pick a Smurfing viable wagon then. Yes Fire is scum. So is Jeanne. Pick the least bad one.

One of your "scum" is currently voting alongside you on the tojam wagon, and you are voting neither of the people you are calling scum.

Which makes my vote, currently, infinitely more pro-town than yours, unless you're lying about your stated reads here.

???

Unless you really mean "pick between tojam, the player I think is probably town, and Night Hunters, a player I think is probably town, and Ari - a null lurk slot being voted with a 2/3 wagon of slots I do scum read (Cake and Guilty Lion - though i think Cake is now backin the tojam wagon, making it lookworse to me and weakening the option of the vague lurksack wagon)
Yeah, amazing that I'm not excited about the lesser of the three evils there.

@Jeanne - Not really buying that as valid reasoning to deadline push and wash your hands of wagon responsibility. You're flat out stating basic scum strategy "yeah, maybe I don't scum read them, but we need a lynch!"

[Thor665]

WHY IN THE NAME OF GOD ARE YOU ALL TRYING TO NO LYNCH AT DEADLINE?!

Because people took long v/la periods and didn't come back till right at deadline

[Thor665]

Okay, now you're jabbing at me intentionally. If you don't like my reasoning, lynch me. Oh, that's right, there's no time to lynch me!

Yes - but there is time for me to express that I find what you're doing to be scummy - which is the point of the game.

I have no desire to no lynch and I am ok with voting anyone who might be scum.

Yeah, I know, everyone is doing their best Pilate imitation today.

[Thor665]

I'm not hammering him because I've called him a town read.
I am openly on record as stating that a lynch of a town read is poor play, regardless of the risk of no lynch.
Let someone who buys into the case hop on - it won't be me.
Mostly because there isn't a case - ergo, scum driven wagon.

[Thor665]

massive, Aristophanes, Night Hunters, shaddowez, SirCakez, Jeanne

Like, here's the wagon, let's look for the case;

Tojam is just giddy to kill a good PR so he can become them.
I have seen scum backups before, so I'm not buying that he is town by role.
That's also why I had them in my scum pool before. Because their play was scummy, and their claim dubious as well as unprompted.

Functionally his case is, Tojam being willing to lynch a PR proves he is a scum backup because he wants to get a "good PR" power (ignoring that the power in question is unclaimed...so...how would he know it was good or not?)
This also ignores that Ari is trying to lynch a PR
Most of the players in this game have expressed willingness to lynch a PR.

1/2 of Night Hunters is *sheeping* that case.
The other half is calling the slot town.
Neither are calling the slot a scumread.

Jumps on the SC wagon for no reason in 99, jumps onto GL in his very next post with no good reasoning except "a lot of people" and an OMGUS vote, isn't responding to questions. No reason to not have my vote here.

Functionally this is shaddowez's case as presented.
Yeah, wagon hopping...I personally don't find wagon hopping scummy at all, and I hope Shadow doesn't either as he went on a quick three stop shuffle himself.
So, basically a pot meeting a kettle - and wondering if that even makes them black to begin with.

I'll move to Tojam if necessary for deadline.

Here is SirCakez reasoning.

I don't care what you think. Deadline is coming, so we have to lynch someone. All this posturing is giving us no favors.

Here is yours.

Yeah...I don't want to be on that wagon.
I must be scum trying to avoid a good lynch for "reasons".

PEdit - oh, and here comes confirmed scum for the win. FIrebringer - lynching with no case at all, like the scum he is.

[Thor665]

I'm thinking a hat bet is reasonable here.
Any takers from those doing the lynching?

[Thor665]

Hat bet - it is just an "I will eat my hat if..." sort of deal. A gentleman's bet.
Actual bets (and sig bets, oddly) are not allowed on site. But I'm guessing you knew that.

How about if he's town you agree to sheep me tomorrow?

[Thor665]

Vote: Firebringer

In other news - getting someone to L-1 sooner rather than later helps prevent what happened yesterday.

[Thor665]

@NH - well, by the sound of that, you might have me for Jeanne - but otherwise, yes, this is exactly what I'm doing.

[Thor665]

Whut?

[Thor665]

The above was directed at Jeanne, not SirCakez.

[Thor665]

Though, actually, in thinking about it, the worst I could say about Ari's play is something I could also say about both the people voting him.

@Guilty
@Cakez

The naked votes, whassup?

[Thor665]

Since the only actual claims on the board were one who was already lynched and NH - sure.

[Thor665]

Vote: Jeanne

[Thor665]

Though, actually, in thinking about it, the worst I could say about Ari's play is something I could also say about both the people voting him.

No idea what this is supposed to mean, can you explain?

I mean the best case I could make against Ari I could just switch out names and make it against you - so I'm wondering why you're voting him with a naked vote.

My vote isn't naked, I posted my thoughts D1

Unless you state it as the same reasons as before, that is a naked vote - now the vote isn't naked.

My biggest problem is with how he said "tojam is giddy to kill a PR [referring to his NH vote]", which looks to me like what scum would say when they're trying to push a wagon through. There's no natural reason to describe tojam's play that way, it's pure embellishment.

I hate this reasoning, but you actually just bumped into a town read for me so, good work on that.

Hop on the Jeanne wagon now - it should be sexy.

[Thor665]

I am very disappointed that a tojam lynch happened because it means that some townies are actually bad enough to lynch a

player based off deadline

claimed PR on day 1

when there were clearly better lynches.

Fixed that for you.

[Thor665]

I am at Jeanne - Shadow - Redacted in Fire/Ari/SirCakez/GL

Too much based on nervousness to your rolefishing methinks.

[Thor665]

That's a brain puzzler, I'll agree.

[Thor665]

Someone might have been jailed as protection?

Seems dumb if someone thought you were town, but that hardly excludes the idea of it happening (no insult to the present company - I'm just of the opinion your first few ICs did you a disservice).

[Thor665]

Jeanne feels scummy as hell to me of the two, the conversation yesterday was pure scum, and the give up when there was no need to today speaks more to me than the derp idea of going busdriver before JKer/RBer.

Like, say they're scum - why would they go busdriver then when they wouldn't as town? Doesn't make sense any more than if they were town saying the same thing - doesn't seem alignment indicative, seems derpy indicative.

PEdit = your math could easily be two blockers/ascetics.

[Thor665]

That's also an option - looking fairly likely to be role madness - a RBer + Ascetic in that situation doesn't actually scream crazy to me.

You're saying you explicitly got info that you were blocked from the mod?

[Thor665]

That could look bad for Shadow unless it was a loud RBer.

[Thor665]

Actually, Wiki is informing me that's not what the loud modifier is - but I think you get my point, whatever modifier announces the type of action to the target. I know that exists, I've seen it before.

@Jeanne - I understand you mistook the game. When you realized you mistook the game your first reaction was to say 'lynch me' not 'sorry, confusing games' and *that* is what made your reaction scummy, not the messed up game awareness. You, for some reason, felt you had slipped, when you hadn't in any way - ergo...scum.

[Thor665]

Looks like that would require a modifier of the Loud role that is not explicitly Normal.
That doesn't tell us much at this stage, but, with a few more flips that might be interesting, especially considering BBT's flip.
I'm also of the opinion we're missing a kill.


@NH - I'm asking if you were explicitly told you were blocked (not jailed).

[Thor665]

Because it sounds like you just got a generic "your action returned no result" type of message, which is less interesting.

[Thor665]

I want to lynch both of them - yesterday.

[Thor665]

Uf da!

[Thor665]

Okay, so now we have a neigborize claim from a slot that may have gone nowhere last night and is claiming to have been blocked, but yet neighborizing did happen.
That is a valid Shadow lynch reason right there.
NH scum would not attempt to kamikaze themselves on a lie (requiring FB to lie also) to manage a Shadow mslynch methinks.
I could see Shadow at this point going for the kamikaze.

Unvote: Jeanne
Vote: Shaddowez

The rest of the role interaction is a little bit of a logistical logjam to work through - my plan is to get a few more people dead and sort it later.

I do not believe Firebringer's claim at this stage - JKer is not a provable role, and is the classic fakeclaim for scum RBers.
I will admit that logic does *not* play smoothly into the rest of the info I have however.
Eh.
Shadow scum flip will make me call NH obv. town and FB at least town until near lylo when I can get paranoid about him again
I actually think I'm talking myself out of Shadow again, because this is just a gnarled mess here - but FB could be town if one presumes bad play, and Shadow does not.

I can buy Shadow/Jeanne - with an FB badtown, that could result in this.
Let's go with that theory for the nonce.

[Thor665]

He pretty much has to regardless of his alignment unless you're scum with him
But, yeah, agreed.

@NH - y/n question. Did you guys discuss your night targets prior to the end of night? Basically I'm asking because if you did, then it pretty much confirms the neighborizer as obv. town also, as otherwise Shadow would have known the plan on him and could have, y'know, not gone with the Bus Driver theory.

[Thor665]

But anyway, lots of what I said yesterday was to get people to think I am BP or investigative role. See if scum would NK, which I assumed they wouldn't. I was right.

Pull the other one, it has bells on.

[Thor665]

What other line of questioning do you wish to pursue exactly?

[Thor665]

I had a lot of fun in this game - good pinch hit job GL, you really nailed the lylo after some scum reverses.

[Thor665]

And I went with brain against gut in a game where a lot of logic went out the window.

For the record, I thought you were stuck in a not pretty lylo - to my mind it really was a 50/50 sort of value call, you just ended up on the wrong side.
I also think if town had won they would have "deserved" to win - they played questionably, but had a few lucky breaks, and that's as much reason to win as anything in Mafia.
I did enjoy watching everyone delve my iso for clues - I've never seen that end well for town, and it makes me proud

[Thor665]

I always am astonished at how quickly Thor is usually able to turn a game in his favor.

Massive was a goner, and now he's basically turned the whole thing onto a claimed PR. He's got Shadow and NH on board, and now he's almost got Tojam as well as Kir. That's 5 votes, and then all he needs are his buddies to hop on, and that's it.

All in the span of a page. This game may be interesting after all.

I lurvs you too Aero.
That said, replacements basically have carte blanche to shake up the game state, especially if they get to reinvigorate a lurk slot (which, as a replace, they basically are assured of getting to do).

[Thor665]

This is a conversation that will quickly plunge into madness methinks - go safely all involved.