Closed Setups Are Horrible

[Firebringer]

Discuss.

[Firebringer]

Thanks for joining my yet-unstarted closed game FB!

I can never hate your setups Ythan, even if I have yet to play in one, love you pal <3

[Firebringer]

This is probably an extension of your reaction to Mana mini theme.

Yep "Discuss" is an extension.

[Firebringer]

Closed Setup is awful because you don't know what you are walking into at all.

You join a game that is called "balance" by others, but what makes them credible at analyzing the balance of a setup? And I am not saying I am better at balancing a setup than anyone else, but I just don't think balance is very easy to get. Theres always something that breaks it, you can only do the best you can.

One player base game that has op town might be completely balanced because the town players aren't that good.
Another might have weak town but town doesn't need it because the town is in general good.

I think the huge disadvantage to playing a Closed game is you have to put faith that the moderator made a truly balanced game. A semi-open/open you can decide straight up "Hey is this balanced?" If you think not, then don't play or go in KNOWING that fact.

[Firebringer]

Good thing there's an open queue for players who don't like closed setups.

When 90% of the games hosted on here are not open, I think this would be something worth discussing.

I want to hear why people think a Closed setup is better, the only things I hear is "It can be broken" I think opens made that way are poorly designed.

There are plenty of poor designed Closed. You just don't realize that until after the game is over and you already invested your time and energy into the game.

I am saying a Closed setup can be fun, but in the end you can feel like you were cheated and lied to about the balance of the game.

Make it a Semi-Open or Open. Let them know what kind of shenanigans you are getting into.

[Firebringer]

I can give you a pretty good idea of what will be in a game based on it's size.

A closed normal of 13p will generally have 3 scum, and 2-4 town power roles. You might not know WHAT the power roles are, or whether or not scum have power roles, but it's not like you walk into a closed game completely blind in general either.

This is another thing with it.

How do you know this?
Because Site Meta!!!

You gained insight that other players not familiar with this site have that gives you a distinct advantage to other players.

You know what to expect in a Closed Setup.
Players off site don't.

Closed Setups give advantage to players who know the moderator/reviewers to predict what the game will look like and in general what this site considers balance.

[Firebringer]

you're simply making an argument against setups in general here

What in the hell?
How did you come to this conclusion?

I am saying that one persons opinion of balanced is different from a other, so anyone calling something "Objectively Balanced" is basically asking for trouble.

this is pretty awful. setups aren't balanced by the playerlist. a playerlist being weak or strong doesn't affect the balance of a setup (though it may affect the outcome of an individual game)

but again, this isn't an argument for or against closed setups but mafia games in general

I was more talking about how a setup that could be considered "Town sided" or reverse could end up being a good and fun and seemingly balanced game. Even though some would see it as not being actually balanced.

Its more of combination of events that cause the game to actually turn up fine and not a train wreck.

And yeah this could happen with Open and Semi, but my problem is you don't know what your getting into with Closed where Semi/Open you kind of get a disclosure before just by looking at it.

whether or not they're better, there are reasons people prefer closed setups. it allows for a different kind of experience insofar as getting creative with claims and thinking about whether claims make sense or not, which provides its own set of challenges to make the game more interesting (at least for some)

This is funny because I actually see less creativity with claims on this site than my own site. Like roles on this site are very.....vanilla. You guys have different roles but its far safer to claim a VT than do anything actually creative and bullshit a role claim.

My homesite where its only open/semi you kinda are expected to make a legit sounding role claim. And if its a Semi open its not always just a CC someone elses claim.

Just because you have limited options doesn't mean you can't be creative. Hell I claimed that I was role blocked and bus drived in a game where we had no bus driver or roleblocker on my homesite, I ended up winning that just because of insane play that kept everyone scratching their head.

i don't think i played anything outside of open setups for a while after joining this site because i'm not dumb enough to jump into the deep end without knowing how to swim

I thought newbie games were supposed to prepare me to play on this site as a whole, and get used to meta.
Explain to me why Newbie is Semi-Open when 90% of the site is Closed.

Please, explain it.

If I am expected to read games before I play on here to know how to play on this site, I don't see the point in the newbie queue.

read and learn. use your head. then you'll be less likely to have this issue

I just want some damn transparency going in, and honestly I don't see why not. Considering time invested for players who play the games can be months long.

[Firebringer]

that's like saying "everyone has a different opinion about whether 5+5=10 and no one person's opinion is necessarily right"

Thats not even a remote comparison.

[Firebringer]

... you clearly have no fucking clue what you're talking about so i'm not going to bother

I feel the same way when I am responding to you.

[Firebringer]

Like you sum up my main points then tell me what my argument was. You clearly don't understand my position.

If anything, you don't have a clue.

[Firebringer]

FB why do you wall in MD and troll in game

Because I play games to have fun.

I join discussions to discuss.

And what Tere said, because Tere obviously walls all the time in games

[Firebringer]

nothing, as long as you're not asking for a change in the queue system to meet an imaginary demand

I would like Closed setups restructured to have a little more transparency than currently exists for instance "Theme" doesn't tell you really anything except the game will have flavor.

"Bastard" can tell you a lot but I think there should be intermediary between what is "Normal" and "Bastard" that could give players lot of info to what they are getting into.

I don't know, but I think transparency would go a long way with helping Closed games be less....annoying to participate in.

[Firebringer]

He problem your producing fire is that you are a minority voice about this said problem. Like technically speaking all games are already not closed and semi open but the fact that it's has to be disclosed if it's bastard or not.

At work but I'll be more indepth later

Well I think when people come in and see problems with the way things are done it might be help to see their opinions and at least consider them.
I don't see how me being a minority changes that.

Like look at the newbie queue.

What is its purpose?

Right now I see that its to get new players,also hopefully retain them, and indoctrinate the newer players to the playstyle of this site.

Ignoring the second part because I hate that purpose of newbie queue and don't think it should be its goal.

Now if you want to get new players and keep them I think having a consistent game type across games is key to this.

Newbie is a Semi-Open game.

90% of site is Closed.

Shouldn't the Newbie then be Closed? If you want to actually prepare the users for what its like to actually play on your site.

Setup is just as important as playstyles, so I don't see why its so different.

[Firebringer]

I like closed setups. They let my mind roam and then I have to decide what's too-too fucked up to be real and what's somewhat likely to be possible. I rely on the reviewers to balance against that and I take advice in-game from folks who could either be scum or town. Then my own experience weighs in as well, but it ends up mainly being about assessing folks' motives.

It's immensely enjoyable having that level of unknown to figure out.

Wait how can you not do any of this in a open/semi-open? Like.....You can focus on scum hunting without looking at a setup and then use the setup as a afterthought when you are scumhunting.

In fact thats what you should be doing IMO. Setup speculation should always take backseat to actual scumhunting. You think someone is likely X role? Well are you scumreading them? If yes, then maybe they are X role if it can be scum role, or they must full of shit or you are wrong.

[Firebringer]

I've seen a closed setup that was won based on town not knowing about the setup.

What? I am confused on this.

[Firebringer]

Like, what does that even mean?
You can't attribute a win to something that isn't existing in the game. Thats like me saying "I have never seen a open setup that was won by knowing the setup" Nobody is putting into question that a player can win a Closed setup....

So are you saying that if players knew the setup going in they would win it?
Or saying that not knowing isn't a disadvantage?

I am seriously confused...

[Firebringer]

I'm wondering what the problem is with closed setups if they offer variety and mental stimulation to a game and don't really influence the outcome of games.

Open setups are an option (and I apologise if I missed the last page or two of pointed discussion) and are half the queues here, including the newbie queue - even if that's semi-open, which lies in between both polar opposites.

I guess what I don't get - is why does a closed setup make so much of a difference to you if you'll also argue that scumhunting is paramount? I'll argue the same thiing. I just find closed more fun.

Closed setups do interfere with game....I meant they don't interfere with scumhunting.

Different roles change the outcomes of game nights which impact the game, yes?

If you take out roles of the equations and are just interacting with players to hunt for alignment which is a majority of what day talk is for, no it doesn't matter what the roles in game are. But in grand scheme, yes. It will matter because the game isn't just Day talk. The games aren't all just Vanilla.

And no, Open doesn't make up half the games on here. It might be up to 25% but its really closer to around 10%.

At least 40 of my 50~ so completed games were Closed. So I don't know where you are getting your half from.

[Firebringer]

In a way, closed setups let me be more creative in my thinking and theorising

I don't even think this is true.

Like, remember BBMolla New York game?
People were saying IaI couldn't be scum for role and all setup theorizing had that going into it.

I didn't setup spec at all and when I scum read him and people said "Ohh but he claimed X role how can you see him as scum" I said "Ohh well he is still scum"

We aren't as creative as we think we are lol.

I swear BBMolla created that exact game just to fuck with Site Meta on how setups are designed.

Nobody expected it and thats part of why scum won.

[Firebringer]

(although I'll argue that setup spec is *much more prevalent* in an open but meh)

You just contradicted your own argument.

*facepalm*

*facepalm*

lol.

[Firebringer]

Are you actually trolling?

Nope, just mass communication failures all around.

I feel like I live on a different planet as everyone here when I try to convey myself, cause I feel like the only reasonable person in the room sometimes.

[Firebringer]

Open setups make you a worse Mafia player by giving you bad habits and a lack of gameplay imagination.

Opens are the worst and I would rather tear my arm off and stick it in my own ass than have to play them exclusively.

Closed actually make you less imaginative. And require you have much more experience with the game to do if you want to get "creative", it rewards players who have played more versus newer players.

Where as opens or semi-opens give everyone the same amount of information. An experienced person playing in a closed has a better understanding of what the setup than any newer player would. For all they know it could be anything.

Rewarding experienced players over any player, is inherently unfair.

Thats why Closed are shit.

[Firebringer]

Just a recent example, Ythan game. Which was mentioned in first few pages of this game. Was a closed game. Yet it was doing wacky things that isn't common on this site even (nobody was vanilla, but nobody was PR, everything was cancelling out)

One of the players was familiar with another setup run similar to it (Experience), and therefore had a leg up over anyone else and was able to use this information to better deceive the other players (He was scum).

Why should experience give you such a distinct advantage in figuring out the game? And I am not anti experience, I am anti clear advantages for people just being aware of site meta/mod meta.

I want people to enter a game, try to scumhunt and that be the skill involved and maybe where experience shows.

[Firebringer]

Open makes you less imaginative. You're given a rigid list of what you can and cannot claim. If you're lying, you will be counterclaimed. In a closed setup, as long as you know a little something about balance, nearly anything is a plausible claim.

No one is saying it doesn't favor more experienced players. Some of us prefer that. People who have gotten better at playing will naturally play with people who are better.

There are players that don't like to be given the setup before hand. Some people enjoy that aspect. If you don't, no ones making you sign up for them.

Mafia is a game that inherently rewards experience. It's why we have a newbie queue. Claiming that ones experience shouldn't lend them an edge... Literally removed the entire point of a game. No fucking shit people who have played longer will be better. The same goes for anything. The same goes for football, baseball, counter strike, dota, business, and life.

Open games are fucking easy mode bullshit and Normals aren't much better.

No, it makes you wiser. Instead of bullshiting and making stuff up and hoping someone who understands the hosts mind better doesn't call you out on a claim, it makes it so those who understand site meta can better lie than those who don't. And balance changes with site meta. One site sense of balance is slightly different than another. Host have also different sense of balance either. Like their is no straightforward balanced game.

If a game is specifically made and gives an unfair advantage to someone before the game starts, I call foul. And I am not saying you shouldn't get better and play more games, I am saying if I told you "Hey lets play a game, but I can't tell you all the details the game, and you won't understand whats going on until you play a few dozen parts" you probably would say "No, I don't want to play a game I have no idea how it works". The game should reward you for being good at SCUMHUNTING. Thats a basic part of the game, not for knowing what the game IS.

Last point, my point is that figuring out the setup isn't intrinsically a skill. I mean, its useful and helpful so in that sense its a skill. But it is only a skill in the sense that you aren't getting better at the basics of the game to learn. Its something that only a lack of information over time progresses into a understanding of what is predictable or not predictable. If you lost a dozen times to the four move checkmate for instance, you would eventually learn what to look out for and try to prevent it. Is that an improvement? Sure, but it doesn't show any real improvement in long term you just figured out how to prevent losing in one way. Now think if you play on multiple sites with different meta, you would become a newbie all over. Trying to overcome some other method that you will not be able to break, even though you are a "Veteran".

Like, even in closed you can hide what the win conditions of the teams are. What in the hell? How about some troll hosts who make a game of all VTs, and don't call the game (I heard this has happened, not on this site tho).

Like, I don't care if a setup is balanced, I don't care if its "bastard", I just want to know what could exist in the game. I want transparency. I want to see the potential, I don't want to wander aimlessly in the dark. I shouldn't have to be expected to understand the meta on setup specs on Closed. Its one of the reasons I refuse to setup spec, I will scumhunt and ignore most of everything else.

Closed Setups are shit because their is no transparency and the host could literally, if they wanted. Do whatever they want in the game. Who is going to stop them? Site mods? They don't see the game. Co mods? That is if they have one. The reviewed game that other people have done could be another game entirely. Does this happen? I don't know, haven't seen it, but the lack of transparency annoys me and it has potential to happen.

[Firebringer]

Like


Everything in fucking life gives you an advantage over the less experienced.

If you want to live your life playing with less experienced players, stay in the Newbie queue forever. If, however, you'd rather gain actual experience instead of deriding those that have learned, try joining a Large Theme. Because here's a news flash: experienced players don't always smoke newbies. Hell, newbies can be harder to read sometimes.

But if you just stay in your safe little Closed bubble, you never learn shit and won't ever be shit.

I hate the newbie queue and you don't seem to understand its purpose, its supposed to convert newer players to site meta.

Also, Information Asymetry is how Closed Setups work, same reason Insider Traders have an advantage over those not in the know. Thats how Closed works. Those close to the mod, or been around long enough know exactly whats going on and what is likely in the game. Sure, they might not know everything, but they have good idea on it.

Information Asymetry doesn't equal any real skill. Its just you have information on the game, before it even began.

[Firebringer]

Why should experience give you such a distinct advantage in figuring out the game?

yeah... mafia should be like other games/sports, where a newbie can easily match an experienced player without learning anything about the game they're playing

i especially hate it when i have access to the information other players have and i choose not to do anything about it so other players have an advantage over me. that just makes mafia a shit game, imo

I like the sarcasm.

Mafia is in no way a sport, part of the reason I like it is the learning curve theoretically is low. All you have to do is have basic understanding of human mind works. Then work in how a person would act in different scenarios.

The second part makes no sense btw.

[Firebringer]

If you think that's how a good fakeclaim is made, it's no damn wonder you don't know what you're talking about.

Thank you, insulting my experience and knowledge is excellent way of engaging in a dialogue.
How about instead of attacking me, you explain what I don't understand?

[Firebringer]

all sports are games. mafia is a game. the learning curve is low, even if you have an advantage by knowing more things than someone else

protip: you can also read, which (perhaps magically) makes you know what others know!

zmuffin, do you really consider all games sports?

[Firebringer]

Reading is for plebs.