Closed Setups Are Horrible

[zMuffinMan]

I just don't think balance is very easy to get

this is probably correct, but it is correct regardless of a setup being open or closed. i think most people have an

idea

about whether a setup is balanced, but they have no clue whether or not it actually is, and again, this is the same whether the setup is open or closed

you're simply making an argument against setups in general here

One player base game that has op town might be completely balanced because the town players aren't that good.
Another might have weak town but town doesn't need it because the town is in general good.

this is pretty awful. setups aren't balanced by the playerlist. a playerlist being weak or strong doesn't affect the balance of a setup (though it may affect the outcome of an individual game)

but again, this isn't an argument for or against closed setups but mafia games in general

I think the huge disadvantage to playing a Closed game is you have to put faith that the moderator made a truly balanced game. A semi-open/open you can decide straight up "Hey is this balanced?" If you think not, then don't play or go in KNOWING that fact.

i think there's certainly arguments that could be made for better practices in balancing games - i also think at least 99% of the playerbase on mafiascum is unqualified to say whether something is balanced or not. if you think you're an exception, you're probably not. i would say it doesn't matter if a setup is closed or open, you probably don't know whether or not it's balanced

I want to hear why people think a Closed setup is better

whether or not they're better, there are reasons people prefer closed setups. it allows for a different kind of experience insofar as getting creative with claims and thinking about whether claims make sense or not, which provides its own set of challenges to make the game more interesting (at least for some)

You gained insight that other players not familiar with this site have that gives you a distinct advantage to other players.

You know what to expect in a Closed Setup.
Players off site don't.

Closed Setups give advantage to players who know the moderator/reviewers to predict what the game will look like and in general what this site considers balance.

yeah, and...?

i don't think i played anything outside of open setups for a while after joining this site because i'm not dumb enough to jump into the deep end without knowing how to swim

read and learn. use your head. then you'll be less likely to have this issue

i'm not saying you won't still be cheated by the setup. there are definitely a whole bunch of moderators who really shouldn't be creating setups and a whole bunch of people who approve said setups that really are not qualified to review games (and i'm not even solely referring to "balance" here). shit happens. you get some bad games now and then that should just have never happened. but really, who cares? so you play a couple bad setups now and then... big deal

[zMuffinMan]

I am saying that one persons opinion of balanced is different from a other

there is no such thing as an "opinion on balanced"...

that's like saying "everyone has a different opinion about whether 5+5=10 and no one person's opinion is necessarily right"

i'm going to ignore any response to this that talks about bases - it's not a clever response so don't bother

[zMuffinMan]

... you clearly have no fucking clue what you're talking about so i'm not going to bother

[zMuffinMan]

Why should experience give you such a distinct advantage in figuring out the game?

yeah... mafia should be like other games/sports, where a newbie can easily match an experienced player without learning anything about the game they're playing

i especially hate it when i have access to the information other players have and i choose not to do anything about it so other players have an advantage over me. that just makes mafia a shit game, imo

[zMuffinMan]

all sports are games. mafia is a game. the learning curve is low, even if you have an advantage by knowing more things than someone else

protip: you can also read, which (perhaps magically) makes you know what others know!

[zMuffinMan]

that's not what i said, but i can see why you don't like reading!

[zMuffinMan]

well, technically pure newbies can be better than more experienced players if they actually know how to read (research) and have basic reasoning skills, so that's not true

i don't think i played great in my first games, but i certainly had an understanding of the game before i attempted playing it, so i wasn't completely lost. i also didn't play closed setups until i had done enough research to have at least a basic understanding of setup balance and what kinds of things to expect, so i also wasn't completely lost in my first closed games

do closed games give an advantage to people who are experienced? not really. do they give an advantage to people who know more than others do? yes. is knowing more than others linked to experience? in a way, yes, but not necessarily