New York 194: Guns N' Roses Mafia! (Day 8)

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Ozgin neither great nor powerful.

[Something_Smart]

Well Not_Mafia's co-modding the game so I think that's part of it.

I don't like 22 or 23.

[Something_Smart]

If anything copying your RVS from a towngame would be a scumtell but I can't find where he did that. All I can find is "I'm a tree" ~Golden Robster 2016

[Something_Smart]

Leaning town on Robster, leaning scum on iraonavp.

[Something_Smart]

Slight scumlean. 48 feels slightly newbscum, but the rest is just newb.
I don't love how his wagon has formed, however.

[Something_Smart]

I don't like Egg's questions to jam in 66, number 3 in particular is basically, "do you like your role?" which feels like rolefishing disguised as RQS.
I also don't like pisskop's rolefishing in 83 but it reads like a joke, although it was not interpreted that way.

79 felt weak at the time, but it makes sense as a reaction test. I don't think it was obvious however and Ness's reaction in 85 is really bad and opportunistic. And 105 is just bad.

On the other hand Killthestory's reaction felt genuine and read as towny outrage to me. Fragger said in 102 that his reaction was "interesting" and "could be opportunistic scum" but then in 106 says it was "genuine" but then was also "pretty eh". What do you actually mean?

UNVOTE:

Scumleans are iraonavp and Ness, and maybe Fragger depending on his response.

[Something_Smart]

@Fragger: that's one heck of a wishy-washy response. What's the point of a reaction test if you can't get any reads from it?
@KAAG: there are some good reasons to push Ness, but why push him for unvoting?

[Something_Smart]

In response to Performer: 22 seemed like unnecessary qualification to join an RVS wagon. I didn't see the point of 23 and I thought it was to encourage that wagon or try to get jam to say something scummy.

I have KAAG, Egg, Killthestory and jam in my town pile atm. KAAG for his push on Ness and blatantly asking people to follow him. Egg because his analysis in 161 of Ness and of jam basically sums up my thoughts and it's unlikely those thoughts would come from scum. Killthestory because all of his reactions and comments feel super genuine and unfakeable. Jam because his posts read newbtown who doesn't realize that his wagon is not serious.

I have conflicting feelings about Ness and Fragger. Like Egg said his whole "day 1 in unimportant" stance could just be a personal opinion (and if anybody has played with Kaboose they know what I'm talking about), and he does feel a little like frustrated town being wagoned. But his play has been super opportunistic and defensive in a way that I think town would have stopped trying to defend himself and started scumhunting. Fragger is a similar way except he hasn't received much pressure for it. He made his weird 79 which he later admitted was a reaction test, but he seemed unable to draw any conclusions from it. When I pressed him about it he responded "day one is day one" and that there's not much to analyze. That said I do like his push on ira and it really doesn't feel like a bus.

Ira is leaning scum mostly for the reasons Fragger described, and everything he says feels awkward and forced. I also don't like GuyFawkes, particularly 127 which feels like coaching/buddying and either assuming Ness is town or trying to get him to do something that will get him scumread.

I already explained my Robster townread. Everyone else is null right now. Including pisskop (in response to Egg); I think him asking bugs for a claim is typical pisskop and not indicative of alignment.

[Something_Smart]

the quotes arent' very relevant to the vote.

Then what is relevant to it? Is it RVS or serious?

[Something_Smart]

Killthestory because all of his reactions and comments feel super genuine and unfakeable.

Smart, you need to expand on this.

I like his reactions to Fragger in 80 and 86. After being called fake, he responds first with outrage at being misinterpreted, then with disdain toward Fragger, but he never tries to get Fragger to change his read and he insults Fragger's reaction test. I think scum would respond with either sidestepping the comment or trying to get Fragger to explain.

I also think his push on Ness gives the same "I'm pushing who I think is scummy regardless of what people think about it" feeling that I'm getting from KAAG.

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler: N e s s

VOTE: Ilikebugs I don't like bugs

RVS.

fake? motherfucker i didnt even realize this game was a thing until like 30 minutes ago or whatever.

You seem really defensive for an obvious reaction test or joke post idk what it was.

This is the really bad post. First he calls Killthestory's post "defensive" when it is mostly annoyed but actually does not make any defensive effort. Then he calls it an "obvious reaction test" while admitting "idk what it was" which basically means he's attacking Killthestory for not realizing the point of the post when he himself does not know it either.

Do we have a role list? anyways (

Vote: Ness

) just because he voted me ;P

thx boo <3

Fluff.

Frag's post didn't look like a joke....

I don't mean exactly joke post, I said reaction test or whatever the hell it was because I didn't know what he was doing with it. My point is that story looked very defensive to a post with hardly any merit with it due to it being Day 1.

Either way they both look weird to me.

Oh, now he's backtracking. More ugh. Leaning scum on him at this point in the ISO.

Frag's post didn't look like a joke....

I don't mean exactly joke post, I said reaction test or whatever the hell it was because I didn't know what he was doing with it. My point is that story looked very defensive to a post with hardly any merit with it due to it being Day 1.

Either way they both look weird to me.

you didnt say that.

anyway, shit has merit any day of any game. theres no reason to not take something more seriously than another post disregarding joke posts or RVS, which that clearly wasnt either.

you also didnt say that they both looked weird

*ahem.

You seem really defensive

for an

obvious reaction test

or joke post

idk what it was.

Also, welcome to day 1. Where hardly anything has a lot of merit besides some titanium scumslip. I'm pretty sure we all know that day 1 doesn't give people much a chance to be suspicious. If you see something that is clearly rummage towards you being scum, no need to reply to it since it doesn't mean shit. You replied to it way too defensively considering the levels he had on you. Thats why I think you look weird.

Also, as for your last little bit of saying "I never said either looked weird" thats a part of my opinions that I just stated, as i literally got home a little under and hour ago. Which as for that, I mean both you and Frag as others have said above that Frag's quote towards you looks odd.

This is provably wrong given the above average number of day 1 scum lynches, but that's beside the point. The point is that he's waving away all day 1 posts as having little merit, and in the same post attacking Killthestory's day 1 post as being scum indicative. That's downright hypocritical... hypocrisy in itself is not a scumtell, but the way he does it (saying the best way to reply to an accusation is to ignore it) is suspect. I think Killthestory's reaction was fine and Ness is at the very least reading way too much into it.

VOTE: Ness

case and point

I hate people who lol at being voted.

Ness you know Day 1 posts have lots of value, that "day 1 posts have little merit" argument is bad.

Oh, I forgot to say that early day 1 usually isn't very meritable.

Not sure what this means or why he is saying it.

Ness you know Day 1 posts have lots of value, that "day 1 posts have little merit" argument is bad.

Oh, I forgot to say that early day 1 usually isn't very meritable.

then why are you so defensive

frag if you admit that the reaction shit was shit then clearly the reactions you get will be shit

I wasn't planning on humoring you with a reply, but only got 1 thing to say

Ugh.

why are so defensive? clearly that was just a reaction test and joke post that i was making?

however now youre responding to me with memes? dont you realize how defensive that is?

great job you figured it out i'm José the taco vendor

This is a weird method of defensiveness... while it fits with Ness's "the proper way to respond to pressure is to ignore it" I think the unstated second half of that for town would be "the proper way to respond to pressure is to ignore it

and scumhunt

".

why are so defensive? clearly that was just a reaction test and joke post that i was making?

however now youre responding to me with memes? dont you realize how defensive that is?

great job you figured it out i'm José the taco vendor

how great job admitting your scum, what are you abilities? what do your tacos do specifically scum?

My tacos will make someone very happy when you get 1 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Ugh too much fluff.

happiness is a scumtell

Oh shit what have i done

See above.

Can we keep the shit posting to a minimum & attempt to solve this game please?

Sorry, I needed to get my silliness out when I was tempted.

And again.

Also before I forget this doesn't seem to be serving much of any purpose at the moment.

UNVOTE:

I think this unvote is fine. It's fine to think that we were out of RVS at this point.

Kickandgiggle, what do you think about jam and the wagon on him?

Feel free to make it KAAG, save the old keyboard.

Someone's gotta get wagoned early, may as well have been him. But Ness is now scumming the place up, so we need a new one.

Also before I forget this doesn't seem to be serving much of any purpose at the moment.

UNVOTE:

BZZZZ. Wrong.

VOTE: N e s s

Why is that wrong?

This is a reasonable reaction, but it doesn't fit with Ness's "you respond to pressure by ignoring it".

I don't like Egg's questions to jam in 66, number 3 in particular is basically, "do you like your role?" which feels like rolefishing disguised as RQS.
I also don't like pisskop's rolefishing in 83 but it reads like a joke, although it was not interpreted that way.

79 felt weak at the time, but it makes sense as a reaction test. I don't think it was obvious however and Ness's reaction in 85 is really bad and opportunistic. And 105 is just bad.

On the other hand Killthestory's reaction felt genuine and read as towny outrage to me. Fragger said in 102 that his reaction was "interesting" and "could be opportunistic scum" but then in 106 says it was "genuine" but then was also "pretty eh". What do you actually mean?

UNVOTE:

Scumleans are iraonavp and Ness, and maybe Fragger depending on his response.

As for you saying that i'm opportunistic, he seemed too defensive for the levels that Frag had going for him.

fake? motherfucker i didnt even realize this game was a thing until like 30 minutes ago or whatever.

I know this can be read as "genuine" but him saying this didn't sit right with me. As for post 105, I didn't feel the need to reply to that since he said that i was defensive in this post when i really don't see anything wrong with it.

Frag's post didn't look like a joke....

I don't mean exactly joke post, I said reaction test or whatever the hell it was because I didn't know what he was doing with it. My point is that story looked very defensive to a post with hardly any merit with it due to it being Day 1.

Either way they both look weird to me.

you didnt say that.

anyway, shit has merit any day of any game. theres no reason to not take something more seriously than another post disregarding joke posts or RVS, which that clearly wasnt either.

you also didnt say that they both looked weird

*ahem.

You seem really defensive

for an

obvious reaction test

or joke post

idk what it was.

Also, welcome to day 1. Where hardly anything has a lot of merit besides some titanium scumslip. I'm pretty sure we all know that day 1 doesn't give people much a chance to be suspicious. If you see something that is clearly rummage towards you being scum, no need to reply to it since it doesn't mean shit. You replied to it way too defensively considering the levels he had on you. Thats why I think you look weird.

Also, as for your last little bit of saying "I never said either looked weird" thats a part of my opinions that I just stated, as i literally got home a little under and hour ago. Which as for that, I mean both you and Frag as others have said above that Frag's quote towards you looks odd.

In other words thats all I have to explain myself right now.

This is pretty defensive. It wouldn't be a problem except that he's still asserting that Killthestory's reaction was weird.

It's RVS, not RUS.

More votes on Ness please.

Please answer my question above you.

Fair enough.

It's RVS, not RUS.

More votes on Ness please.

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here, all I did was take my vote down since my RVS vote wasn't doing much for me anymore.

If you'd like to know why I think that day 1 usually isn't meritable, heres the forum I most commonly play mafia on where we have 48 hour days almost everytime: http://www.belltreeforums.com/showthrea ... Town-Wins!

Day 1's on this site in my opinion are meritable, but not the early parts like the first 2 days irl. Looking at it now, we're forming enough talk to begin questioning me now, so yes. Day 1 is indeed profitable in our situation.

PPEdit: I dislike how you're simply just saying i'm blatant scum since I can't pull something out of my ass and say something about who scum is.

Now he's backtracking. It's more of a scumtell to stick stubbornly to a wrong opinion. I don't like how he said "in our situation" because he's still sticking to his rule and just making an exception in this case

OK Ness, let's question:

If you are comfortable in your towniness, and you think early D1 isn't meritorious, why have you made more posts responding to others' position on you than anyone else, and quoted everything back at them?

I don't know how to explain this to you, maybe its just the way you've worded this. If you could quote somethings i've said on this issue to help me understand, that would be beneficial for me and you.

Kind of an awkward "wait what are you accusing me of" that comes from both alignments.

OK Ness, let's question:

If you are comfortable in your towniness, and you think early D1 isn't meritorious, why have you made more posts responding to others' position on you than anyone else, and quoted everything back at them?

I don't know how to explain this to you, maybe its just the way you've worded this. If you could quote somethings i've said on this issue to help me understand, that would be beneficial for me and you.

You can't look at your own ISO, see you have the highest post count in "un-meritorious early D1" and see that every time someone mentions you, you quote it back at them?

Why are you pretending not to understand this?

You know, saying that someone is "pretending" to not understand something when they clearly ask you to help guide them for an easier reasoning as to why you think they're scum, in this case I literally only didn't understand how you worded something, is impeccably vague for you to mention. All I did was ask for a simpler explanation and you went unnecessarily Gung ho on me. Also, stop rubbing it in my face that everything i've mentioned is "unmeritable" and "nothing matters" when it doesn't. I just showed you why I think its unmeritable, in which my forum has

48 hour days that end very quickly

, whlist we have an entire 14 hours to figure something out.

Nevertheless if you're just going to be a jerk and turn me down in doing what I so kindly asked of you, then sure you can have your way. I'll go back and do my best to try and explain myself.

Ugh, *14 days as for that typo.

This actually makes a lot of sense. KAAG's case particularly in the "pretending not to understand" is a reach, and this post has an appropriate amount of defensiveness.

Ness, I know you've played a Newbie and I know your IC was Drixx, so you've been well taught how things work here.

Your comments on the merits of D1 look like nervous-scum. And that's why early D1 is useful.

You can go read that whole game then, because I was incredibly confident scum and almost won that game but I dropped out because I had a dirty play, and as selfish as that is, i felt like I didn't deserve the win. I prompt you to go read my whole ISO that game and see the difference in here and then, because i've been subject to D1 lynch for 4 games now, and i've been scum in only 1 of them.

In any words, i'm a living breathing person and its 11:00 PM here with school tomorrow, and i'm too damn tired to eat my wheaties to do shit right now so don't be surprised if you don't get any kind of response to your case on me 10 hours from now.

Normally self-meta is scummy, but in this case it was KAAG who brought it up, and this outrage actually feels real. Except that real outrage could be from scum or town, and being aware of your scum meta makes it practically useless.

Mod, VL/A until saturday or 48 hours from now. I have a school project due tomorrow.

I don't like that people suggested his V/LA is fake. I know from experience that V/LA's can come at unpleasant times. *cough* *cough* Fragger

So my overall conclusion wrt this slot is that he is probably scum but that it is not as cut-and-dry as some people like KAAG were suggesting. I wish I had done this before he replaced out because I really would have wanted to know what he thought of Killthestory. My biggest objection to his play is that his read on Killthestory for being defensive persisted even after he himself became defensive-- I can imagine his "day 1 is not meritable" stance as coming from town but this discrepancy feels really unnatural and indicative of contrived reads.

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler: Fraggernaut

Hey folks! Finally off work. Can't wait to play with you all.

VOTE: pisskop

Heya buddy.

RVS.

Robster you said the same thing in my Mini Normal as town
Are you town here too?

Which one of Robster's posts are you referring to?

Fair enough.

26-28

I'm still not getting it.

They didn't really say anything other then someone was for certain scum, in a eerily similar way that another player on this forum does.

This is also fine. Suggesting that Robster is an alt? (I hadn't thought about that.)

@Mod

My vote was on pisskop not Boonskie.

Either ways UNVOTE:

This is a lot earlier than Ness's unvote and I'm not sure we were out of RVS at this time. However I don't think unvoting in RVS is alignment indicative. (If anything the best RVS-vote-related scumtell is leaving your RVS vote on while developing serious reads.)

I'm not sure what to think about Robster this game, nor on their death tunnel on Jam.

They're playing with reckless abandonment, way different then the game that just finished that I modded; where GR was Jail Keeper.

I agree with this assessment, but I wonder if it is rolefishing-- I would take this to mean if anything that Fragger thinks Robster doesn't have a PR. It does show evidence of trying to sort players though.

Meant Boonskie.

Was reading Jam's iso & had them on the mind.

This is fine.

I'm not seeing where the wagon is coming from or has footing outside of RVS.

None of Jam's posts thus far have been telling to me. Only real thing of substance was their #48.

This is reasonable, and pretty accurate.

@Egg That game is Here


@SirCakez I don't know where it came from. Allow me though to flip the question though. Whats right about it so far? What information have you received from the pressure of the wagon?

I feel like this is a misunderstanding, intentional or not-- wagons in RVS are good even without any footing, though he has a point that wagoning a total newbie is probably not going to produce useful results.

Someone explain the red flags about Jam for me.

I guess I'm not still grasping how that could be a scum tell from them.

While true, this feels a little like scum stagnation repeating "sell me on X" over and over again for lack of something better to do. But I think that's a stretch given that he drops the subject of jam immediately after.

oh shit i forgot this was a thing.

wait let me go look at my role, i havent looked yet lmfao

the fuck did i just read

This seems rather fake.

This felt odd at the time, but actually as a reaction test I rather like it and like the reactions he got from it.

I like Ness for realizing what my post towards killthestory was, which was just a little reaction prod. A bad one albeit some may think, but it's day one & typically my day one play is pretty eh. Im just trying to get a feel for people in the game.

My post wasn't hardly a joke, but the reaction from Story & SirCakez was pretty interesting in that they felt a strong urge or need to respond to it. Hook, line & sinker which could of easily be opportunistic scum trying to jump on something as minor as a reaction test.

This seems rather fake.

I am interested to know your opinion on the 'red flags' explanation.

Hey Slandaar. It's been explained by Boonskie (#75) & Egg (#99), & I think I get what they're trying to explain. I think I would compare it to say video mafia which I have more experience in, where a scum is more likely to say "what do you want from me" or something along them lines to appeal to town or to try to seem town after a possible slip or something weird that they've said.

Yeah but this is weird. He made a good reaction test but (in my opinion) totally misinterpreted all the reactions. I could see this being buddying if Ness is town, though I really can't see a Fragger/Ness team.

Ness you know Day 1 posts have lots of value, that "day 1 posts have little merit" argument is bad.

Oh, I forgot to say that early day 1 usually isn't very meritable.

then why are you so defensive

frag if you admit that the reaction shit was shit then clearly the reactions you get will be shit

Not at all. I say albeit some may think it was a bad reaction test. I never said I thought it was bad.

I believe your reaction was a genuine reaction to it, and the reaction was pretty eh.

Kind of defensive and wishy-washy. Already discussed.

Can we keep the shit posting to a minimum & attempt to solve this game please?

+1 though I think it's mostly stopped by now.

I don't like Egg's questions to jam in 66, number 3 in particular is basically, "do you like your role?" which feels like rolefishing disguised as RQS.
I also don't like pisskop's rolefishing in 83 but it reads like a joke, although it was not interpreted that way.

79 felt weak at the time, but it makes sense as a reaction test. I don't think it was obvious however and Ness's reaction in 85 is really bad and opportunistic. And 105 is just bad.

On the other hand Killthestory's reaction felt genuine and read as towny outrage to me. Fragger said in 102 that his reaction was "interesting" and "could be opportunistic scum" but then in 106 says it was "genuine" but then was also "pretty eh". What do you actually mean?

UNVOTE:

Scumleans are iraonavp and Ness, and maybe Fragger depending on his response.

As stated in a earlier post of mine, my day one logic is pretty fluctuating. The response was interesting, cause the reaction seemed geuine but also way over the top & over exaggerated; if that makes any sense to anyone else. I think in general right now I'm pretty in between & null on Story.

Yeah this doesn't make sense because how can a response be genuine and exaggerated.

@SirCakes

Was there ever a answer for my question to you in my #69?

Fair enough.

@Fragger: that's one heck of a wishy-washy response. What's the point of a reaction test if you can't get any reads from it?
@KAAG: there are some good reasons to push Ness, but why push him for unvoting?

Day one is day one. Sorry Something_Smart. I just don't have perfect information like scum would have.

As I said, I'm trying to get a feel for players in the game, & start the sorting process.

This is understandable I guess, but that being said we're getting to that point in the game where you should start having real reads so he should not be stalling any longer.

@Performer

Note: I will not interact with Boonskies unless absolutely necessary. I want to see some improvement from this guy (if he's town this game). Long story.

Hello again Performer. I would like to see a explanation, even if its a small one; of why you've pigeon holed Boonskies in your first post.

This is reasonable trying to sort Performer.

I gotta say Ira's ISO is pretty funny. 4 posts, two blanket votes & a bland statement.

This is where I actually start to see some town motivation in his posts. The whole push on ira feels towny and not opportunistic. Fragger as scum could jump on another wagon (like Ness's) but he goes after a scummy player who's been mostly ignored.

Ira, not sure what your play is just yet; but so far it's been pretty awful & borderline scummy.

I typically don't change my vote & move them around often unless I see something that pings out weird to me.

The post you said that you had 7 posts was untrue, that was actually your 6th post in total according to your ISO. Before that

Hello. How's it going, all?

NOW DIE SCUM

VOTE: jam

we will lynch scum

all we need is just a little patients

I think you mean "patience". I do however think you are voting correctly.

VOTE: jam

Are you feeling the pressure, jam?

let's get this straight

this jam wagon sucks

we need to bandwagon boonskiies

because he is most definitely scum here

Upon what metric does the jam wagon suck?

I don't think Boonskiies has done anything alignment indicative so far, and the jam wagon has FIVE TIMES the number of voters.

Furthermore, the jam wagon has Pressure.

VOTE: Fraggernaut

Hey, Mafiaturtle. How are you going to Pressure jam if you aren't voting him?

Most of your ISO consists of a half-hearted attempt to make it look like you're scum hunting on Jam. You are pushing hard for this wagon until you change your vote with a naked vote on myself. After which I think it's weird that you call out Mafiaturtle about pressuring Jam if they're not voting them, when you were one of the main proprietors of the Jam wagon originally and lay a naked vote on me.

VOTE: iraonavp

This is pretty good and shows a kind of OMGUS that I've found comes from town more often than not. It's to the effect of, from my POV there is one confirmed town and that's me, and in voting me you are voting somebody I know is town, so I can use the information that you voted town to help sort you.

The quotes from you beg to differ though.

This is reasonable, could have used more explanation I suppose.

Im wondering if we're just going to continue to let Robster shit post the entire game & get a free pass for it.

"Cause he can read minds" isn't very concrete evidence with how much you've thrown votes around.

This isn't particularly good and is weird considering I thought Fragger agreed with my townread on Robster.

Irao sorry my vote stays on you, hence I think you're the most scummy person so far in this game.

Your posts contradict what you're saying compared to what you're actually doing. A pretty notable scum trait.

This is fine attempting to sort ira, and I wouldn't call that "a pretty notable scum trait" but it is something town make an effort to avoid.

Right now I would have to say Irao & Golden Robster are in my preliminary scum pool.

I'll ISO Ness & see what I can derive from the interactions with them & others. Originally I didn't want to address it cause I wanted to see if the interactions between Ness & KAAG were organic. It could very well be a instance of TvT.

Ness vs. KAAG doesn't feel TvT to me. However KAAG's push feels genuine regardless of Ness's alignment so I won't say anything definitive yet.

@Irao

Quote posts in which I make "a half-hearted attempt to make it look like I'm scum hunting".

Are you feeling the pressure, jam?

Upon what metric does the jam wagon suck?

I don't think Boonskiies has done anything alignment indicative so far, and the jam wagon has FIVE TIMES the number of voters

Quote posts in which I am "pushing hard for this wagon".

See above as well as you keep mentioning them here.

Furthermore, the jam wagon has Pressure.

Which to me shows that you're still fully interested & involved with the wagon, while most of everyone else that was on it either went AFK after their vote, or have tried to scum hunt elsewhere & progress the game further.

Quote posts in which I "call out Mafiaturtle".

Hey, Mafiaturtle. How are you going to Pressure jam if you aren't voting him?

You called Mafiaturtle out for not putting their vote on Jam if they were going to pressure, even though your vote at the time was freshly on me when you naked voted me. It seems like either A. You're trying to get town to do the dirty work for you in getting a mislynch or B. There's this odd & weird world that I'll have to wait to see interactions between you & Turtle, that you're scum buddies together.

Also Irao, if you weren't interested in the Jam wagon. Then why did you go out of your way to mention it so many times?

Good points, though I think ira has made this case really easy.

Right now I would have to say Irao & Golden Robster are in my preliminary scum pool.

Why Golden Robster? I have felt a certain sincerity in his posts.

Hasn't provided anything to town other then shit posts & naked votes. Gives me a slight scum lean on him currently.

Not sure I'm following the progression of this read. Could be opportunistic, although I think Robster's pretty widely townread.

Also combine that with the fact that I know Golden Robster (from my recently finished game I modded. that they were involved in) is more then capable of providing information to help town & being a town leader.

See previous comment.

@Irao

Which is your opinion, it's not factual.

Fair enough.

@Slandaar Sure I could agree to a extent I guess that scum would be more likely to appeal to town to appear town.

@ Golden Robster What's the difference between grasping at straws for a scum pool over you grasping at straws for town reads?

@ Egg I've only seen his town game in a previous game I modded, where Golden Robster was Jail Keeper. In that game he didn't shit post much at all, & towards the end was a key factor in getting town the victory over a scum-sided team which also included pisskop. This game has been so much different then the game I modded where Robster provided town good information as well as good logic. This game, he's provided none of that nor has tried to lead town which makes me wonder heavily about them.

It gives me a bad feeling that he keeps mentioning that Robster was jailkeeper rather than just town, it's like he's secretly trying to determine if Robster has a PR here.

@Egg

True. Typically I don't like using META to try to discern alignment. META is too easily manipulated. I was only stating that this isn't what I've seen Golden Robster do as town, so it seems pretty weird to me.

I think if you don't like using meta then you don't really have an argument here. Robster's fluffing is not really scum fluff.

Also the Ness V/LA did come at a pretty convenient time, but I don't know if that's alingment indicative

Ugh.

Nah meta is fine in general. I'm just not sure it applies here.

Are we seriously questioning the legitimacy of a V/LA?

It's just odd that they've gone V/LA when their wagon was picking up, & then are online hours later when they cited a school project as the reason for needing a V/LA for 48 hours. I think in this instance you kind of have to take a look at it. I've seen scum before in games I read use V/LA to avoid pressure or to avoid being a late day lynch.

Pedit: Now the replacement doesn't make things any better.

Uggggghhh.

I believe this pressure has to happen now

VOTE: Ness

The vote itself is okay, but it appears to be because he thought the V/LA was fake? That would be a really underhanded tactic...

If it's actually mod killable & it hasn't happen then

UNVOTE:

This is not really helping the town.

Well there's a wagon on them, so I guess we'll have to wait for the replacement to get anything from them.

OK I guess.

Don't think I've seen Reubus since my first or second newbie game.

Hello again.

Also OK.

So Fragger is one of those players who does stuff that's hard to understand as town and stuff that's hard to understand as scum, making him overall hard to understand. I do see a lot of town motivation (especially in the ira push) but but he also does some weird things and I really can't figure him out. I have him as null right now, not as in there's not enough to analyze but as in the sum of the positives and negatives is zero. I'll have to wait and see what he does before I can try and get a real read on him.

[Something_Smart]

Slandaar is annoyingly noncommittal except for his stance on iraonavp.
Jam & Ilikebugs both feel like newbtown.
SirCakez's last few posts have pinged me, both the one about pisskop (feels like asking for credit without blame) and the one to Ilikebugs (feels like trying to blame Ilikebugs for misinterpreting pisskop's post).
Both Fraggernaut's and iraonavp's self-consciousness is awkward and I'll have to look at both of their metas.
Solid townreads now on KAAG, Killthestory, Robster and Egg. Growing townread on Performer.

[Something_Smart]

That was Ilikebugs who claimed.

[Something_Smart]

Hey, it's Drixx!
I actually really like Egg's reaction test as it produced the very awkward 415. After which Drixx has multiple fluff discussions. I'd like to see some content from him but for now he's leaning scum.

I like KAAG's reads.

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler: Creature

VOTE: SirCakez

RVS.

Here we go.

Not sure what the point of this is, I think it's just a "this game is starting and it's big".

Here I am.

Prodging. No content yet.

I'll see.

Still no content.

Creature do something. Even Snarky is being more useful then you.
Slandaar is a stinky wagon.

If Slandaar is a stinky wagon, then what is a good wagon for you? Slandaar has only asked questions so far, but I didn't see him bothering to even answer his own questions. I don't mind pushing him, even if there's a Golden Robster voting him.

Also, why were you referencing Snarky?

I think some votes may force the issue.

VOTE: Creature

What about you? Do you have your own opinions? If your only post is an opportunistic vote, then there's something wrong with you.

Creature, wanna answer my question? Also, any thoughts on the game? Reads on Jam and Ness? Thoughts on their wagons?

Do you think there's something wrong with post #9? I had no intention behind that post. I am waiting the game go on a bit, I'll slowly take a look.

So far:
Ness - Typical panicking. Well, so far his behavior matches with his scum play, but I need to take a look at his town behavior and see what matches more.
Jam - Newbscum for me. I see hesitation on his initial posts to accuse someone, I also think he's pretending to be stupid. His vote on Golden seems sheepy (sheeping Snarky).

Jam

How much experience do you have in Mafia?

Push on Slandaar is weak and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Questioning to Kop is oddly defensive (and calling a naked vote on him "opportunistic" is also weird).
Even if it really seems like it, it's bad to accuse a newbie of playing the newb card.

Also combine that with the fact that I know Golden Robster (from my recently finished game I modded. that they were involved in) is more then capable of providing information to help town & being a town leader.

But he still could be a town-aligned player who isn't making much of an effort, right? That's the conclusion I've reached, at least.

Isn't that the same as saying someone could still be a town-aligned player who is being very scummy?

No, it's not the same.

Creature, you said "here we go" on Page 1. I was mostly trying to figure out if that had to do with anything specific or if it was the game starting in general. And if it was general, was it meant with excitement for the game starting or was it more of a concern for something that may have been coming.

Yeah, it was about the game starting in general. I wasn't that excited though.

This is fair, I guess.

Creature, you said "here we go" on Page 1. I was mostly trying to figure out if that had to do with anything specific or if it was the game starting in general. And if it was general, was it meant with excitement for the game starting or was it more of a concern for something that may have been coming.

Yeah, it was about the game starting in general. I wasn't that excited though.

Hello Creature.

but I didn't see him bothering to even answer his own questions.

Why would I do that?

I mean that you could share what do you think rather than asking some of the questions.

Though this is backtracking and changing what you meant, it is a valid point and I had the same feeling toward Slandaar.

Yes, I am. Although, I am more active in this forums (for some reason).

Fluff.

Here I am.

Prodging.

Like the way Kop's only post is a sheepy vote. Hope this prod makes him speak more.

Feels a bit like fixating on Kop for naked voting him.

tbh I feel jam's being fence-sitty.

This isn't really true and it makes me wonder how closely Creature's been reading.

I mean that you could share what do you think rather than asking some of the questions.

My priority is to find scum not to let you know what I think. To find scum I shall ask questions. Why didn't you ask me my opinion(s) if you find the opinion(s) I chose not to post important?

Seems fair, but I think you could've commented on some things you find strange.

It's notable that Creature here asks Slandaar to comment not on his reads but on "things he finds strange"... there's more to analysis than than and I wonder if Creature is just afraid of being caught.

What about his claiming?

He claimed something? I didn't see jam claiming anywhere.

Fine.

A bit.

Fine. At least he admits he's not caught up.

That was Ilikebugs who claimed.

Well, he had no reason to claim, so I can't get a read from it.

This doesn't make any sense. It was an unforced claim and therefore you can look at the motivation behind it. Rather, if it were a forced claim then you couldn't get a read from the fact that he claimed.

If pisskop asked you to jump off a cliff. Would you do it?

In-game or real life?

This is a stupid response to a stupid question.

.-.

._.

Creature, how many games have you played? Do you prefer being town or scum? Does being scum make you feel more nervous or confident (or if you've never been scum, which do you think would be true?.

In this site I completed one game and am playing this and 3 others.
I prefer being town because when I am lynched my play will be accepted next game.
Depends, I start nervous, go confident a little then nervous again, but it doesn't differ too much from my town play.

Also, pretty sure the size of the posts is not alignment indicative.

Reasonable.

Starting to feel bad vibes from Creature, why are you ignoring Egg's question?

The only reason you're scum reading me is because I didn't answer his question soon?

Too defensive.

VOTE: Drixx

Two stones, one scum

I could understand this after Drixx's entrance.

VOTE: Drixx

Two stones, one scum

Oh hey look. He gets called scum by SirCakez and takes the opportunity to jump on an easy wagon. No correlation though, amirite?

Since when I am forbidden from scum reading you?

Strangely defensive, also notable that he didn't even mention the weakness of Drixx's argument here.

If you notice, SirCakez is only scum reading easy mislynch targets.

Oh this is awful. How, given your significant lack of scumhunting this game, can you suddenly determine who is an easy mislynch target? I don't believe in scumslips but this is pretty awful.

Because I wasn't restricted or anything as I see.

This didn't actually address the question.

If you notice, SirCakez is only scum reading easy mislynch targets.

I've never played with Irao or Jam, and you are pinging me constantly so yea those are my scumreads.

VOTE: SirCakez

Ugh.

Heh

Creature

SirCakez is definitely scum.

That's a nice OMGUS you got there.

So Creature has done little scumhunting all game. He's been alternating lurky and defensive, mostly only addressing others who address him, and has been trying primarily to stay afloat rather than to actually further the wincon of the town. Combining that with 438, I would be happy on this wagon.
VOTE: Creature

[Something_Smart]

A couple things from those last few posts by Performer don't sit right with me. I'll look at it later when I have more time.

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler: Performer's catchups

My 2 other ongoing went into OT for me in the morning, which I didn't expect. Catching up right now.
-----

I doubt the replace out and V/LA post, along with his statement of school project, came from scum

I got that. My question was why. Like it's one thing to believe that he was legitimately busy but I want to know why that has to come from town. Why wasn't he scum who was too busy to play? (And yes, I read the rest of your post. Just this is the part where I'm lost)

It's just how I read the Ness replace out. There's nothing more I can go into for why. Like I said, the replace out for Ness who's had a school project - I've seen replace outs from school-goers before and they've been town. That was why I read that slot as town.

I haven't seen anything from the replacement so far though and as I said before , I'm open minded so I reread the Ness ISO and wow. First 12 posts of filler along with a vote on someone who I've added to my townreads: Ilikebugs. Once I added that part of his ISO to the replace out, I see why he could be scum now.

Why should a VT without much to add be worried about being taken out first?

This is very questionable to me as well. Maybe it's just his completely overt town paranoia?

Id also like to know why I was asked to claim and why people were on jam before?

umm jam is too new so I dont know if hes acting scummy or townie for him

I'm starting to think ilikebugs is actually Townie based on these posts.

The read progression on Ness is understandable, but this could be making a show of changing his mind. He specifically claims to be open minded and demonstrates a "sell me on Ness...okay I'm sold on Ness" progression that could be faked. The Ilikebugs read is perfectly fine however.

If I had to choose one person that is most likely to be scum, I'd choose kickass.

#377 irks me in ways I cannot describe.

Golden Golden Golden. If I've been wrong about you this game, I'm going to shoot myself.
I really don't find it transparent in that pg 16 interaction you had, with Egg about Kickass being scum.

Do I need to read what came already or is it mostly fluff?

My oh my.

Well if it isn't someone who I was scum teamed with a while ago, in a large normal.

Drixx , the voice of reason.
I hope I can read you well enough to discern your alignment this game.

Nothing pinged me in this post.

You don't need to read anything, just shoot someone to confirm your predecessor's quintuplevoting dayvig survivor claim.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure my predecessor didn't claim that, LOL.

Yeah, he didn't claim that.
But then why did your predecessor claim he was a Town 3-shot Tracker? Awfully unwarranted, wouldn't you say?

Because SirCakez is making a lot of short quips that don't really mean anything or represent a wider perspective.

Short quips that...so you're saying he's just pushing out nonsense? -_ -

This is the one I really didn't like. Playing along with iraon's joke which serves no purpose except to distract, and the response to iraon's comment about SirCakez doesn't really mean much.

Performer sounds straightforward but I disagree with some of his posts (i.e. post 292, 298).

What do you disagree with about my 292 ?
From my 25+ games I've played on and offsite, as well as a few moderated games of varying capacity - I believe day 1 lynch means we have less of a chance of mislynching town (and possibly town PR). This means we have town PRs going to work overnight and more town remaining, to help us in the fight against scum. This of course, is just a general theory I hold.

Creature, how many games have you played? Do you prefer being town or scum? Does being scum make you feel more nervous or confident (or if you've never been scum, which do you think would be true?.

In this site I completed one game and am playing this and 3 others.
I prefer being town because when I am lynched my play will be accepted next game.
Depends, I start nervous, go confident a little then nervous again, but it doesn't differ too much from my town play.

Also, pretty sure the size of the posts is not alignment indicative.

Creature do you have offsite FM experience?
I find it super strange that you believe if you're town, your town play will be accepted next game. Elaborate?
I typically find size of posts and effort, to be town rather than scum. If the posts are consistently incoherent wall posts, that's another story.

Okay so here are my reads so far:
Drixx I wouldn't think make himself such a target d1 if he was scum. It's been a while since I've played mafia so I can see myself as town doing what Drixx is doing in his current position.
Reubus hasn't talked at all so I'm hoping he can add something.
Killthestory started the Drixx vote which seems more scummy than town to me.
Egg I think is using player meta which can easily backfire. Also voted Drixx immediately after killthestory. However still neutral on him due to him actively asking questions.

ilikebug, Drixx actually is very involved as scum. I can't recall his town play very well, but I think he's involved as town too. For a player like him, I don't think effort would be a good tell for sorting him.

The asking for explanation from Creature feels ever so slightly forced. Also the comment about size of posts doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Finished reread of Creature's ISO - he did put up a reads list with SC, Kop, KAAG, and Drixx (though I don't know why he put him in his scum list).

I can agree with Something's 460 case on Creature. Seeing as we have 9 or less days remaining, I 'd like to get more progress via a vote on VOTE: Creature
-----
Also just finished a read of Kop's ISO - his 189 was understandable in moving the game forward. His 445 sounded highly reasonable. Haven't seen enough from him though and he's now V/A until 4/8. Null read on this slot - I'd like to see more from him.

This could very well be seeing a buddy going down and deciding to bus them.

I'm still townreading Performer, and most of these posts were fine. But a few parts of them (particularly 507) felt slightly off. After rereading, though, it doesn't really feel that unusual.

[Something_Smart]

Robster, stop voting town.

I'm going to have to reread iraonavp, his last few posts have actually made some good points and I rather liked his no lynch reaction test. Not sure yet where I stand on him.

[Something_Smart]

Not going to quote every post in iraonavp's ISO.

Ira starts off really awkwardly with 23, 29 and 30. Then he gets into the argument with Fragger. It's hard to tell his motivation from this argument but his defense actually seems legitimate and his 159 makes sense from a town mindset. However I don't like how he keeps being defensive and arguing with Fragger for the next 200 posts. I do like 397 because it's pretty much what I was thinking. He outlines some reads in 403 that are pretty shallow, but he doesn't push any of them, citing "CRIPPLING INDECISION", which is actually towny in that he had a chance to be opportunistic and didn't take it. He's actually trying to figure out motivation in 414 and 423, and then he votes no-lynch in what I thought was a reaction test that he has yet to follow up on.

Iraonavp is null leaning scum for me right now because I can see where most of what he is doing coming from a town mindset (town sometimes do forget to scumhunt and just defend themselves) but there's only a little, out of 47 posts, that shows a desire to find scum and there's also only a little that shows a lack of care for how one is being perceived.

[Something_Smart]

I like DGB's reads.

Ira's series of posts in imitation of DGB is interesting. It's pretty obvious that he's upset about being scumread and is trying to do whatever he can to be townread, the problem being that both alignments do this. I definitely don't like him quoting his own post and calling it town.

Kop's vote on Ira feels opportunistic if Ira is town. He basically described what Ira did the last few pages, which was imitating DGB, rather than what he has done all game.

I would be okay with a Reubus wagon. I got bad vibes from Ness and Reubus's lurking hasn't helped.

@Ira re: 618: I do think it produced reactions, whether you intended it or not (though you called it "provocative" so I would think you did). Notably from Fragger and Performer. What do you think about those reactions?

[Something_Smart]

I think I probably just missed your question Performer. I stayed up from 9pm Sunday until 2:30am last night for non-mafia related stuffs, and I've been mostly recuperating from that today.

I am unequivocally NOT a survivor, or any other sort of third party.

I take this as admission of being scum.

You take it wrong.

Oh really now.
You replaced into the MafiaT slot, which I've held as a scumread and nothing that's been posted since the replace-in, has changed my mind.

Also, I inquired why your predecessor claimed 2-shot Cop for no good reason, then you ignored my question...then I asked about why you ignored it, and you're trying to play it off as if I never asked it?

Can we stop doing this
It's not funny anymore and it doesn't advance the game.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Reubus
I feel better about lynching Reubus than I do iraonavp. I also feel much better about the composition of this wagon.

[Something_Smart]

It annoys me how Drixx keeps emphasizing that he didn't place his vote. It's like he's trying to avoid taking responsibility for it.

I don't think we need to listen to the iraonavp-SirCakez back-and-forth any more (708 ). Already pretty convinced there's one scum within those two.

Comfortable on the Reubus wagon. If the Creature wagon revived I'd be comfortable on that too. If neither of those two happen then I'd vote Ira but I just get some bad feelings from SirCakez (and the composition of the wagon in general).

[Something_Smart]

@Drixx:
You have full control of your vote. Whoever you are voting you have tacitly said you want to lynch. If you and Reubus are both scum, then you are absolutely bussing him.
That said, I don't think you are and I'm not suggesting that you change your vote. It's a good vote and doesn't feel at all like a bus (if Reubus flips scum then you're probably town).

Pedit: yup that.

[Something_Smart]

You guys are outfluffing pisskop's avi.

[Something_Smart]

Aristo!
I would be okay with a hammer. I would kind of like Reubus to give some final thoughts or a defense but I doubt that's going to happen.
Ira's last few posts have been really weird and I didn't like the softclaim and I'll have to read him again overnight. I'll also have to reread Fragger, no idea where I stand on that slot.

[Something_Smart]

So yeah, that post was pretty awful, like "I'm being freaking impossible to read, you're scum for not scumreading me for it."
But the Reubus lynch is not just because he is lurking. It's because Reubus replaced a scum slot and then lurked.

Pedit: Not PR feel. More like he said "if I were VT". Definitely a softclaim.

[Something_Smart]

I was referring to 811.
Fragger pretty obviously misread DGB. I don't think that relates to his alignment. I don't think Fragger ever claimed a PR. Ira definitely claimed a PR.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Boon
---
@Fire
What're your reads?
---
In case I die tonight - my scumreads to this moment, are Fire, Boon (just look at that ISO where 3/7 of his posts were prod related , yet he never provided any catchups), and Reub

Why Boon? Activity isn't alignment indicative. And why vote a vanity wagon so close to deadline?

No we aren't hammering Reubus slot without a claim stop

This is almost certainly if scum if Reubus claims a PR and flips scum. I don't think he outright claimed VT though he certainly implied it.

[Something_Smart]

@Performer: yeah that's fair. Problem being that waiting too long for an inevitable hammer promotes apathy and tbh we'd probably be hammering a PR claim anyway. Like I said, I would be ok with a hammer.

@pisskop & fire: what is this, GTKAS?

Pedit: I see where you're coming from.

[Something_Smart]

Please do.
Gamestate needs it.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Fragger
Everything he says feels like it's coming from a scum mindset.

[Something_Smart]

Regarding the Reubus wagon: When I joined the wagon it had all my solid townreads on it. The only player on it before me that has a decent likelihood of being scum is Drixx.
I think it was a very much town led wagon, and probably most scum on it jumped on later. There's very likely at least one scum in <Fraggernaut, Ilikebugs, GuyFawkes> (leaning toward Fragger atm).
Iraonavp's play reminded me very much of scum backed into a corner, but I think the way his wagon developed as a counterwagon to the town-led Reubus wagon, combined with his insistence with Reubus was town, combined with his softclaim makes me doubt that he is scum.

[Something_Smart]

@Egg: I'm townreading Killthestory, KAAG, DGB, jam and you. I agree that Drixx-town doesn't make much sense in that scenario. Who among those voters do you think is most likely to be scum?

[Something_Smart]

@Egg: I definitely agree with you about Frag being scum near the end of the wagon and if one of my townreads are wrong it would probably be jam. I'm reading jam as newbtown but I have been burned by what I thought was newbtown before. I'll have to reread his ISO at some point.

@Fragger: can you explain your Ira read? What is your read on Drixx?

[Something_Smart]

My Ira read & push was already explained in detail day one.

Also I've gave multiple reasons for why I've read Drixx town.

Are you even paying attention this game Something?

Yes, I am. Your last post sorting Drixx was 633. Are you just calling him town without analyzing anything he's done since then?

Your last post sorting Ira was 723, and that was just to say he OMGUS'ed a lot. Do you have any other reasons?

[Something_Smart]

^I can see where this is coming from. 1032 really rubbed me the wrong way, where Drixx assumes Guy will flip town while calling him scummy.
@Drixx what is your read on Fragger?
Trying to assess the likelihood of a Fragger/Drixx team.

By the way, this feels like town-Snarky. (Though I haven't played with scum-Snarky so I can't say anything definitive yet.)

[Something_Smart]

Something_Smart is trying too hard to live up to his name. I didn't say Guy was scummy in #1032. I said that I voted him to see how people would react. In fact I went out of my way to point out that Guy lacked any substantive content upon which to form a read. He had 14 posts when I made that post, and he has 15 now. There's almost nothing of substance there.

But you know ... you can just claim I said something and people will totally believe it.

But even so, why did you turn around and assume he is town? My point still holds.

Also, what is your read on Fragger?

[Something_Smart]

So Fragger is one of those players who does stuff that's hard to understand as town and stuff that's hard to understand as scum, making him overall hard to understand. I do see a lot of town motivation (especially in the ira push) but but he also does some weird things and I really can't figure him out. I have him as null right now, not as in there's not enough to analyze but as in the sum of the positives and negatives is zero. I'll have to wait and see what he does before I can try and get a real read on him.

So you see town motivation from my posts, but are now pushing on me doing a total 360 today? Also how would you know what my scum game looks like, seeing as I haven't had a scum game on this site, including this one? The only META dive you would be able to do, is a town META dive from my previous games. This feels like Something_Smart has more information then town should have, & he knows I'm town but is trying to push for a easy mislynch on me today from people's paranoia.

I reread your posts and changed my mind. And don't misrep me, because I never used meta to push you.

Also I'll admit that I am a easy mislynch, due to my play. There are several people who started in this game (Slandaar, Performer, pisskop, SirCakez, Drixx ect) that have seen my town play & I got lynched. Guess what? I flipped town every single game.

How is this relevant? You're playing like scum. Ergo, you're probably scum.

Also in Something_Smart's #260 spoiler of me, he breaks down most of my posts at the time, & in some way agreed with them, said they were fine, or came from a town perspective. I stated early on that I felt like Something_Smart was going to try to pocket/buddy me as the day continued, instead they've flipped all the way around with the only reasoning being a misread of Dripping's post.

That's not the only reasoning. I haven't explained all of my reasoning yet, but trust me, there's more than that.

He believed my read of Jam was accurate in my #65 post.

So?

He also liked my push on Ira day one, but is now trying to crucify me for it in my day two.

I thought ira was scum then, and I didn't think you two could be partners. But now I'm starting to lean town on Ira and I don't love that push as much anymore.

I had the read on Robster, we agreed on it & then Something_Smart hasn't tried to push on their replacement which is odd.

I townread Robster and always have. Not sure why you'd want me to push DGB?

In your #354 you said you would have to look at my META. If you actually looked it it you would know this is my town play. 100%

Fair point. I have yet to look at your meta. I'm planning on doing that sometime soon (when I'm not busy).

Your #809 you say you're going to reread me.

#828 you agree that I misread DGB's post which I did.

All of a sudden in #973 you drop a lame duck vote on me, in a attempt to start a wagon.

So what does that say about me? I reread you and now think you are scum.

Overall Something_Smart has suddenly became so interested in people's reads on me in day two, that they've pretty much forgot about anyone else in the game. It's quite fascinating to see how quickly they've had a change of heart, which I alluded to before.

If you never change your reads, it means they aren't real.

[Something_Smart]

So first of all, I never expressed a scumread on Fragger or a townread on iraonavp before today.
But also, I just noticed this:

I don't think we need to listen to the iraonavp-SirCakez back-and-forth any more (708 ). Already pretty convinced there's one scum within those two.

which means I may have to read the iraonavp-SirCakez interactions again knowing SirCakez is town. Hmm.

[Something_Smart]

Meh.
So looking at Fragger's meta it seems he's always very defensive and as town he usually has that awkward posting style that sounds like scum.
And I really hate Drixx's last few posts.
UNVOTE:

[Something_Smart]

Nah, it's not too scummy to be scum. I don't really think that's a thing.
It's more like, some people are always scummy.
@KAAG: who do you think is more likely to be scum, Fragger or Drixx?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Drixx
Feel better about this now.

[Something_Smart]

@KAAG & jam: Guy is definitely lurky and hard to read, but I don't think that makes him scum. In fact, I rather like his reads. @jam in particular: garbage != scum. See Golden Robster. @KAAG in particular: I think Drixx is the way to go. What makes you torn on him?

[Something_Smart]

@KAAG: I've seen Drixx's scumgame in a Newbie and it was pretty different from this. But you play differently when you're ICing, and differently still if you need to mislead newbies. And I think the "too smart to play this badly as scum" towntell is bogus.

[Something_Smart]

Also meta is BS.

I half-agree with this. Meta is useful for disproving tells ("Player X is scum because he did Y." "Actually, he does Y even as town, so that doesn't say anything about his alignment.") but not for proving them ("Player X did Y as scum. He must be scum here for doing Y."). So I think looking at Drixx's scum meta is helpful in establishing that he doesn't play in a consistent way as scum, and therefore should not be townread for his playstyle.

[Something_Smart]

KAAG is town. Fire and Drixx are both annoying. Aristo is null leaning scum.
I want to look back at the interactions between the Fire slot and the Drixx slot.

[Something_Smart]

Scumlean on Ozgin, wasn't super impressed by that wall. Though he is right that Killthestory is town. I can look for quotes that actually make sense if you want Slandaar.

[Something_Smart]

Drixx, don't say you haven't done anything scummy. A disproportionate amount of your posts are defensive and your defending is done in a stilted and awkward way that does not at all resemble a town defense.
This most recent post is no exception. KAAG's meta argument is at best a tangential point, but you write a wall about it and ignore the other issues. Not to mention that saying "don't lynch me I promise I'll come in handy later" is not helping you at all.

[Something_Smart]

Kuroi, you hardly mentioned me in your catchup, and then you call me strong town. Where is that read coming from?

[Something_Smart]

Ira's and Killthestory's reads are both pretty good. Kuroi's are questionable (as far as I can tell the only time he mentioned me in his catchup was to say that I was towny on page 2, so...).

Town- DrippingGoofball, KickAssAndGiggle, Yume, Killthestory, Egg
Null/town- Performer, Ilikebugs, Slandaar, iraonavp
Null- KuroiXHF, SnarkySnowman
Null/scum- Fraggernaut, Aristophanes, Ozgin, GuyFawkes
Scum- Drixx, Firebringer

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler: reads

Town

DrippingGoofball- Robster was very towny, and DGB continued the towniness of the slot by having good reads and making good pushes. Her level of confidence seems to indicate that she doesn't care how she's being perceived.

KickAssAndGiggle- KAAG is kind of the same way. The way he asked for votes on the Ness wagon early feels too carefree to be scum given that Reubus flipped town; scum try not to tie themselves to mislynches but KAAG has no problem letting everyone know exactly how he's feeling. And the way he's pushing Drixx does not feel at all like a bus, so if KAAG is scum then he'll have led the charge on two consecutive mislynches in a way that scum would not risk.

Yume- Jam was very clearly newbtown. The way he handled RVS showed honest (albeit unskilled) motivations, and his entire ISO is full of good points whereas he hasn't been defensive practically at all.

Killthestory- The best way to describe Killthestory's play is spontaneous. It's very hard for scum to fake good town motivation in the stream-of-consciousness style, but he's had reasonable reads and honest pushes.

Egg- Egg is pretty obvtown. I have seen Egg as scum, and it feels... slightly off. (He was actually my only correct scumread in that entire god-forsaken game.) But here he's been spot-on and everything he says shows town motivation and honesty.

Null/town

Performer- To be honest I've kind of skimmed many of the posts Performer has made, but that's basically because I read what he says and I'm like, "yup, makes sense".

Ilikebugs- The VT claim was pretty towny, and his reads for the most part match up with the newbtown perspective.

Slandaar- Slandaar throws down a lot of reads without explaining them, but when he does explain things it usually doesn't feel faked. Kind of similar to Performer.

iraonavp- I have explained this before, but I feel like the way iraonavp's wagon developed combined with all of the weird and desperate things he has said gives me a bad feeling about lynching him. His confidence in his reads doesn't make sense from a scum perspective given how uncertain he was earlier.

Null

KuroiXHF- The catchup really didn't make me lean one way or another, and Boonskiies's ISO is completely barren.

SnarkySnowman- As far as I can tell, Snarky is playing exactly as he always does. I will say that I don't think he's scum with Fragger, however.

Null/scum

Fraggernaut- Mentioned this one already too. It's a little hard to explain but everything he says just gives the feeling that he's trying to fit in and not totally succeeding. He uses logic that's weird and unusual for town, and his pushes don't feel very genuine.

Aristophanes- I've never played with scum!Aristo, but I have read his ISO as scum and it seems like as scum he's a bit more accusatory and confrontational, whereas as town he mostly posts what he's feeling. It's a touchy read and I'm not super confident on it.

Ozgin- His wallposts and ISOs don't seem to have a ton of point, and I particularly disliked his response to Slandaar. Feels superficial and unnecessarily defensive.

GuyFawkes- Handing out reads without explanation is fine if the slot actually has content (such as DGB or Slandaar), but that's all this slot is, and he seems like he's making an effort to not provide any readable content.

Scum

Drixx- This has been explained too. Mostly it's the way he is being defensive and always referencing how he's going to be mislynched. Plus his placement before many of my townreads on the Reubus wagon suggests he is scum.

Firebringer- Creature was bad. Firebringer is hard to read but his vote on Drixx and unvote felt a little disingenuous.

[Something_Smart]

@Drixx: my issue with you is not that you are defending yourself. It's that whenever you're attacked, you drop everything and call out the player who attacked you. You don't try to do anything to prove that you're town, you just throw shade on your attackers.

[Something_Smart]

Why are people on Snarky?

Not sure but I think it's a pressure wagon. I kind of like the way it formed actually.

[Something_Smart]

@Mod: Fragger is voting Snarky.

I'm not sure what to think about the Snarky wagon. I thought it developed as a pressure wagon to force him to give content (which it has failed to do) but the last few votes (particularly Drixx's) seem to see it as an actual lynch wagon. That vote by Drixx feels terribly opportunistic if Snarky is town, and in any event I don't like this wagon as an actual lynch wagon.

Also, as a note, Snarky's reads are usually pretty accurate (see both recent completed Fire & Ice games), and he never explains them.

[Something_Smart]

Where in that did you read that I was confbiasing?

[Something_Smart]

So not everything you have done is scummy. But so many things you have done show scum motivation and it's not confbias because I look at each post and say, "this is scummy and the person who wrote it is scum" rather than saying "Drixx wrote it and now I can find a way to call it scummy". But these are the things you have done recently:
Pushed Ari for a scumslip while simultaneously saying that scumslips are often wrong.
Voted Snarky for a reason that can only be explained as "this seems to be the convenient wagon".
Appealed to my skill as a player in a way that reeeeally assumes I am town.

[Something_Smart]

I like the Snarky wagon.

No.

His reads suck

Yes.

My townread on KTS is weakening. I don't like the way he responded to 1536 while assuming that it was a stupid question, as if his intent was to find a reason to discredit, rather than looking again to make sure he understood it properly. I'll have to look at him again.

@Drixx: it's not confbias to have my analysis of your recent posts agree with my prior read on you. That Snarky vote made no sense regardless of who it came from. I feel like you're just throwing buzzwords around that don't really apply to the situation.

[Something_Smart]

Since the Drixx wagon isn't happening and I'm thinking Snarky is town now,
VOTE: Aristo
Also I reread KTS and I like him a lot less now that the Reubus wagon that he pushed hard flipped town. I still don't like at all how he misread Fragger.

[Something_Smart]

Snarky is always lurky and useless. Like in this game. And we're not PLing somebody for being useless this early.
Plus, given that he has so little content to begin with, I doubt he would so blatantly WK Reubus:

I don't agree with this lynch at all.

No because this lynch is stupid

I'm pretty sure we just lynched town

[Something_Smart]

Aristophanes- I've never played with scum!Aristo, but I have read his ISO as scum and it seems like as scum he's a bit more accusatory and confrontational, whereas as town he mostly posts what he's feeling. It's a touchy read and I'm not super confident on it.

Really it's just that you're more likely to flip scum than Snarky. If a wagon developed on Drixx, Firebringer or Fragger I would definitely prefer that.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Fragger
Let's speedwagon this actually.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Fragger
Let's speedwagon this actually.

Neither is this. We aren't going to be able to speedlynch Fragger. I don't even think Fragger is scum.

You're right. 1622 was awful though so I'd disagree about Fragger not being scum.
VOTE: Aristo

@Performer: I'm not worried about a NL. There's still over a day, that's enough time to consolidate on either wagon.

[Something_Smart]

The fact that you misunderstood what he said has nothing to do with his alignment. He's still scum.

[Something_Smart]

I don't like the way he responded to 1536 while assuming that it was a stupid question, as if his intent was to find a reason to discredit, rather than looking again to make sure he understood it properly.

[Something_Smart]

Ah, the part of the game where I somehow talk myself into getting a bigger wagon, and possibly lynched! Classic.

This is actually somewhat towny.

And Fragger and Fire are scum but I don't know if Fire would defend Ari that hard if they were partners.
Ugh I wish we had more time.

[Something_Smart]

I'm here, but ugh. Don't like either option.

[Something_Smart]

Ok. We need flips. We absolutely can't NL.
VOTE: Snarky
If he flips town: I want Fire and Fragger's heads.
If scum: probably look on the Ari wagon.

[Something_Smart]

If he's town you lynch the scummy people pushing him.
If he's scum you lynch the ones pushing the counterwagon. (Though I could see it being a bus, I suppose.)

[Something_Smart]

@Performer: I would have preferred to lynch Ari even before Snarky claimed. But a no lynch is even worse than a town lynch. Now that we know Snarky was town, we can lynch the scum on his wagon:
VOTE: Fragger
Everything he says is awkward, his reads and cases sound faked, and his pushes are awful.

[Something_Smart]

^See, this is the kind of thing that I don't see town-Ari saying. But he said a few things late yesterday that did really sound like his town self.

aris is so hard to read

Killthestory, you said it.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah Fragger/Fire team confirmed.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah Fragger/Fire team confirmed.

Except for the fact that I'm town & you've been tunneling on me for things that aren't scummy at all.

This really really feels like you know I'm town. Your scumread on me amounts to I'm pushing you, therefore I'm scum.
Also, what is your read on Firebringer?

[Something_Smart]

I never said you said I was town, thanks for the misrep. I said you're pushing me, but you know I am town because you're scum.
Now you're preparing your partner's fakeclaim, and you're calling me "scummy as hell" but not voting me.
That push on me is so bad, and the vote on ira is terrible. We need to lynch this with fire today.

[Something_Smart]

Except I don't know you're town as you're trying to imply Something _Smart nor have I ever made the notion that I somehow know you're town cause I don't believe you are. Whose misrepping who now though.

You are, still. Of course you never came out and said I was town, but you described me as "tunneling you for things that aren't scummy at all"... it sounds like you think I'm misguided town whereas if you actually thought I was scum you would say I was fabricating reasons.

Frag I'm saying those are the things that are off about you. Trust me when I say I'd rather vote someone else because you sounded way more logical in the game, but it's come to a point where the guy and snark discussion, as well as taking other views into account, need to be factored.

I think It's completely misrepresented by you that my play is cancerous and self deprecating. If i shitpost , then we can say that, but my play is hardly like that unless I'm pulling some gambit.

I think Fragger meant Fire's play is cancerous and self-deprecating. Which it's not, it's just scum.

Pedit: ninja'd

[Something_Smart]

Town: Slandaar, DrippingGoofball, KickAssAndGiggle, iraonavp, Performer
Null/town: Killthestory, Ilikebugs, Drixx, Yume
Null/scum: Ozgin, GuyFawkes, KuroiXHF
Scum: Fraggernaut, Firebringer, Aristophanes

I really hate Ari's posts today. He's saying false and misleading things and then backtracking, 1841 feels like defending his buddy, and his pushes on the lurkers and on Slandaar are terrible.

[Something_Smart]

@Ari: it's just that I know you and you don't seem the type to push lurkers for lurking, and your posts also feel like you're being unnecessary hostile and discredit-y. It's a bit hard to explain. I kind of see where you're coming from on Slandaar, it's just I've had him as town all game and I think it's a comparatively weak case compared to the case on Fragger or Fire.

@Kuroi: no it's not that. I just don't see a lot of town motivation in your posts, and 1817 and 1819 feel forced. Really you're as close to a true null as I have, but if I had to lean one way it would be scum.

[Something_Smart]

I think Fragger is just trying to doubtcast as many people on his wagon as possible at this point.

[Something_Smart]

Lmao did you seriously just admit to doubtcasting me. And this^ is trash.

[Something_Smart]

I wasn't trapping him into anything... and it's not like I don't have other reasons.
I mean, he's clearly trying to discredit my viewpoint. So clearly that he can't even deny it.

[Something_Smart]

Kuroi, what is your read on Fragger?

[Something_Smart]

@DGB and Slandaar: why do you think Fragger is town?
I really hate how he says I have no case just because I haven't done a quote wall. My case is that his posts are forced and that he's trying to discredit everyone while clearly not showing town motivation (and his responses to my push have only solidified this read).

[Something_Smart]

@Drixx: Actually, no, I felt like changing my avatar for Marathon Weekend and sat staring at Paint for a while wondering what to make, and I drew that. It's cool to hear that it looks like it's actually from something though
On a more relevant note, why is Yume obvscum? There's too little content from her to get a read and jam felt very newbtown to me.

[Something_Smart]

@Slandaar: I've certainly given my reasons for voting Fragger. Even if others aren't, how does that make him town? I would expect that he's being bussed (by Fire, Ari or Ozgin).

[Something_Smart]

UNVOTE:
@Fragger: what made you not claim your result on iraonavp yesterday?

[Something_Smart]

I wouldn't call it a policy, as it is situationally based.
However, I'd rather risk losing an ascetic enabler than a watcher.
If he is scum, he's dead meat tomorrow. If he's town, he is far better to us alive than dead.
It's merely weighing the potential risks. Your lynch is the better play here.

This logic makes sense, except I really really don't believe the claim. When I asked Fragger why he didn't out his guilty yesterday I was looking for something along the lines of his odds of being nightkilled (which, were he town, would have indeed been small) but he didn't even mention them, showing a huge lack of town motivation.
I'm pretty sure Ira is town and Fragger is just claiming to save his skin. I had this discussion with a friend about whether you lynch a claimed guilty all the time or lynch the claimed investigative role of they're playing super scummy, and I think what we decided was to lynch neither, actually. Clearly we'll have to choose between them eventually, but the longer we wait to do so the more information we get from Fragger, if he is town.
This is purely theory, I've never seen it done in practice. What do you guys think about it?

[Something_Smart]

So after thinking about my suggestion I realized the practical downside, which is that we need scumflips to find scum and so we should probably figure out who's scum among Fragger/ira sooner rather than later. I'm assuming that the game Fragger is referring to is a no-flip game, in which it would make perfect sense to lynch outside the 1v1 because the above reason is not there.

I already knew my odds of being night killed were minimal by the way you have been death tunneling me.

It goes without saying, so I knew I wasn't dying cause mafia will try to get a mislynch on me. If I would of outted with the information about Irao as soon as I saw Irao visiting pisskop, I knew that there would be a target on my head & I would die. Your theory makes no sense Something_Smart. If my play is scummy & I'm actually a PR, you're saying I should out myself right away & get night killed the following night instead of getting more information for town. That is a pretty scummy train of thought that borderlines you wishing you had PR hunted a little harder. Sorry friend, no can do for you.

I never said that. Honestly, I think that, if you actually are a watcher, you claimed at the right time. But it was for the wrong reason. For town PRs, particularly ones with valuable information, the fear of being nightkilled should always be in the back of your mind, if not the front. So by showing that it's not there at all (until I fed it to you, at which point you said, "what are you talking about of course I was thinking about that", when you provably weren't), you're making it seriously hard to believe you're actually a town PR.

Overall, I am firmly of the opinion that Fragger is scum fakeclaiming to get a lynch on iraonavp (on whom he has pushed a mislynch for multiple days now) before he is inevitable lynched. I am very confident on this read and I don't think the utility we get from the possibility that he is actually a watcher is worth lynching ira first.

[Something_Smart]

No, I didn't. Just because Fragger softed a PR, does that make him town?

[Something_Smart]

@Drixx:
Why are you assuming Fragger is town?
I'm pushing to get people not to believe Fragger because I don't believe Fragger. His play literally makes perfect sense under the assumption that he is scum, so the claim hasn't changed my read.
That said, I'm still not sure that I want to lynch Fragger today. But if we do lynch iraonavp it will be because we think we can risk a mislynch on the possibility that Fragger is telling the truth.
@Slandaar: you don't think scum would panic if they thought they would be vigged?

[Something_Smart]

I hate to admit it, but I keep getting this irrational feeling that if Frag is scum then he's cheating us out of a mislynch at no cost to him (given that he's being lynched anyway), and I'm really annoyed about it.
I know theory says vote Ira, but I had him as clearly town and Frag as clearly scum and it feels wrong that the best play is to lynch a townread.
That said, I must admit that both claims are believable. Frag's PR "slip" was nice if he is scum (and his play, albeit super scummy, is consistent with his claim), and ira's softclaiming seems real and I find it very difficult to imagine someone making up a claim like that.

[Something_Smart]

Meh I was just about to tell Performer not to hammer.
Not sure where I stand after a scumflip but I think Firebringer and Ari are still scum.

[Something_Smart]

@Ari: I am still expecting him to flip town, but I was intending to come up with two readlists, one assuming he flips town and another assuming he flips scum. I probably won't have time to do that however.
Also, it seems like you believe ira's claim. Do you believe the claim but still think he is scum?

[Something_Smart]

Not surprised by any of those flips.

Going to have to go back and do some rereading (particularly Fragger's ISO, which I meant to get to over the night but didn't), but right now this is where I stand:

Town: Performer, Ilikebugs, Slandaar, KickAssAndGiggle
Null/town: Killthestory, DrippingGoofball
Not sure: RachMarie
Null/scum: Yume, Aristophanes
Scum: Firebringer, KuroiXHF

Fragger's ISO is big and I haven't sorted through it yet. But I remember his one comment about Fire "lol is fire a jester" which sounds exactly like how you brush off your scummy partner with humor.

Ozgin's ISO is mostly barren except for a bus on Fragger, but I don't love the way RachMarie and Kuroi have interacted with him, particularly Kuroi.

RachMarie's unclear because she didn't do much besides push Ira after Fragger's claim, but she did call Ozgin scum several times without really pushing him. I'm not sure if scum would bus Ozgin after how much of a non-presence he was, though.

Kuroi's interactions with Ozgin are really terrible, though. He admits he has some doubts on him, then calls him town and totally ignores him the rest of the day. Then today after he dies he says "well guess I was wrong on Ozgin".

Gotta wait for replacements and for everyone else to give thoughts, but I think I'd be most comfortable with a wagon on Fire or Kuroi today.

[Something_Smart]

Firebringer is completely scum but you can't bring a single reason against him?

This is most definitely false. I have been scumreading Firebringer for multiple days now, and I've explained my reasons for scumreading him independently.

And I'm scum [at least in part] because I was wrong about Ozgin?

Yeah, pretty much. Your interactions with Ozgin are terrible. It's a random townread followed by "I'm beginning to scumread him" followed by putting him in your townlean pile and forgetting about him (until he dies that is).

[Something_Smart]

Oh, I hadn't even been considering multiball. I guess that would explain Fragger's fakeclaim in that he was hoping Ira would actually flip scum...
@Rach: That makes sense, and it's unfortunately not provable, but it does mean that it's harder to read you based on yesterday. I will say the way you brought him up was different from Ozgin's bussing in that he had no pressure on him previously whereas Fragger was going to go up in flames anyway, so that works in your favor.

[Something_Smart]

Thinking back to SS's 2089 - why tell me to not hammer and just leave it at that, at twilight?
Also had no vote by end of d3 votecount, yet stated Fire & Ari were his scumreads.

I didn't have much time just then iirc, but I wanted to go back and see what my thoughts were assuming Ira was scum (Fragger-scum still made perfect sense to me but I still wasn't positive). At that moment, my thoughts dependent on Ira-scum were limited (I hadn't thought about it much) but they were that Fire and Ari were most likely scum in that scenario.
I don't think any lynch other than Ira was ever a possibility, and as you see I didn't want to lynch Ira just yet. Hence the no vote.

Also @Performer do you think DGB is a different faction from Fragger or a Fragger partner? Because rereading the early-game interactions between Fragger and Robster they really don't seem like partners.

[Something_Smart]

Wow, looks like I'm not the only one who's been busy. I promise I'll have time to look at this game in a few days (though I'll be gone next weekend so meh).
I have absolutely no clue what Kuroi is doing on this page. I could vote there.

[Something_Smart]

I don't like these Performer votes.
@Fire what are your thoughts on Kuroi's past few pages?

[Something_Smart]

I feel like there isn't much to respond to.

I kind of like 2208. I can understand having Ari as a scumlean, but he definitely doesn't deserve top scum. Ari has a very distinctive playstyle and I've seen his town game multiple times but never his scumgame. @Ari how would you describe your scumplay?

Also @KAAG what is it about Ari that you dislike so much? Just the VCA?

[Something_Smart]

@Perf:
In response to 2220: it's early in the day and a lot of people hadn't posted much. I wasn't (and still am not) sure who I'd like to pressure.
In response to 2221: Ari is a really chill dude and the first time I played with him I mistook his friendliness for buddying because it was so pronounced, but it turned out he was just really nice town. So that's what I mean by distinctive playstyle. As for town vs. scum, I haven't yet seen his scumgame but I've noticed he tends to get lynched a lot as scum, so I figured there was a difference.

Also.
DGB's push today is odd because it seems she forgot about an entire day. That doesn't seem like something someone with a NK would do. On the other hand, her doing that mostly invalidated her argument against Performer, and that leaves her push on Yume, which has a single-mindedness that I've seen sometimes from scum (notably RC) trying to avoid commenting on other interactions. I also find it hard to believe she can be that confident on a slot with that little content.

[Something_Smart]

I think Fragger was bus'ing iraonavp.

Jeez. It would take a lot of guts to fake something like this.

Also Kuroi sounds like he's grasping at straws here. What's scummy about KTS?

[Something_Smart]

DGB. Is this a joke?
Ira and Drixx are flipped town.

[Something_Smart]

lol yeah apparently Aero's having trouble editing it.

All that does seem super genuine though. I feel better about you.

So given those flips, who do you now think is scum?

[Something_Smart]

Wait a minute. Assuming there is a continued stream of 2 enemy kills per night - if we mislynch 1 and there are 2 more town deaths tonight - doesn't that mean this is mylo? ....

For this to be true there would have to be 5 scum all alive and all on the same team.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I agree but there's 12 alive so how could this be mylo?

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, that is true, tomorrow could be mylo in the worst-case scenario. I thought you were saying today could be mylo.

Also, OP stands for original post, which Aero is having trouble updating (and it's throwing people off).

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Kuroi
I feel better about this than about Ari.
Some of his posts (like 2322) show basically a scum mindset (DGB has been quite towny so he's just fishing around for a lynch people will support that's not him) and I'm also getting feelings of butthurt that remind me of caught for the wrong reason (he seems way more upset and defensive about a little pressure than he should be).

[Something_Smart]

I got that feeling from 2118, 2177, 2186, 2190, 2268, and 2325.

[Something_Smart]

You're completely missing the idea that they could both be townies.

I think I'm going back to my first great push since replacing into this game.

VOTE: Killthestory

I dislike everything about this post.

[Something_Smart]

I think he meant in this game.

[Something_Smart]

KAAG, what are your thoughts on DGB recently? Is she still "unclear"?

Also @Fire what is it about Performer you dislike so much?

[Something_Smart]

@Mod: I'm going to be V/LA until Tuesday. Good luck finding those replacements.

Don't quicklynch anybody (except maybe Kuroi but still I want to wait for replacements if possible).

[Something_Smart]

Hello everyone, I'm back. I see the thread exploded in my absence.

I still want Kuroi's head as his posts still show a scum mindset and scum logic. Also, I noticed a surprising similarity between 2401 and 1806, I wonder if that means anything...

KAAG is making me annoyingly paranoid in these pages with his awkwardness but I'm thinking it's just natural awkwardness as opposed to scum awkwardness (like Fragger had).

I've been hesitant to vote Yume for a few reasons: one, jam's ISO is pretty good and feels like newbtown (on the other hand, I have been burned by what I thought was newbtown at least once) and two, I think I know why Yume lurked out and it's not because she was scum (though I don't think it's right to go into it more). At this point I would like Kuroi and/or Fire dead. If Kuroi flips scum I will have serious problems with the way Fire defended him as well.

[Something_Smart]

I doubt that that's serious.

But if it is, then there's no way you'd do that as town. Though I'm not sure why you'd expect to win as either alignment.

[Something_Smart]

I'm sorry about that. (I know from experience that it happens as both alignments.)

However, I also know from experience that when you (or at least me) have trouble getting into the game as scum, then it causes your scum motivation to be much more obvious, which I think is what is happening. For instance, I'm not sure why you would choose me to "gladiate", given that I'm (as far as I can tell) your top townread, if not to try to discredit me.

[Something_Smart]

Looking for an updated vote count?

+1

So here's the thing. I don't want another deadline scramble like we had on Snarky and I have a feeling the replacement(s) is going to want as much time as possible to catch up. So we need to be almost ready to lynch somebody when the replacements come. The Kuroi wagon doesn't seem to have a lot of support, but I don't feel so good about the people pushing Yume (with the exception of DGB). What I'd really like is for people to reevaluate Kuroi to help me determine if what I'm seeing is just me, and if this happens (or if the Kuroi wagon is clearly stalling) I might be willing to trust DGB (who I'm confident is town) on Yume.

[Something_Smart]

2460 is a terrible post. It seems to admit that it was a vague PR hint yet not actually disagree with DGB's statement.

I don't love the KAAG votes, however I also don't love KTS calling KAAG obvtown. I'm thinking there's probably exactly one scum in <KuroiXHF, Killthestory> and while I still think it's Kuroi, I would probably be open to lynching either one of them at this point.

I'd like to hear Reverie's reads in particular on DGB and Kuroi.

[Something_Smart]

Can we not discuss a person's thoughts before they received their role PM?

Instead, Reverie, can we get some actual reads from you? Your slot owes the game a lot of content.

[Something_Smart]

PAGE 100! WOO!
(I don't envy the replacements who have to read all that...)

VOTE: Kuroi

lynch this today to confirm me as town ty

I agree with this, and KTS's recent posts have made me more confident that he is town.

Also, it was Performer who said it could be MYLO, but the closest we could come to MYLO is tomorrow maybe if we're insanely unlucky.

[Something_Smart]

2 weeks? I believe in long days but days that are too long generally cause apathy... I don't think we should take that much time though it's nice to have it.

Looking forward to hebichan's thoughts.

Also, Performer, you should probably take that quote out of your sig until this game is over... you shouldn't be quoting ongoing games.

[Something_Smart]

What do you hate about the term whiteknighting? It's definitely a tactic that scum use.

My list:
Kuroi
Firebringer
KTS

and maaaaybe Aristo or Reverie.

[Something_Smart]

I think that is exaggerated a little but I mostly agree. Whiteknighting is a tactic that scum use to gain towncred but it's hard to tell the difference between it and honest defending of townreads. It's kind of like bussing except harder to catch.
I think there is a possibility you are WKing Kuroi, but I think the likelihood is at least as good that you are his partner defending him. I most certainly have other reasons for scumreading you besides that.

[Something_Smart]

Oh shoot, haven't posted in a while
@DGB: I do agree with you there but what in particular made you change your mind?

@Ari: what do you think about Kuroi and his wagon?

[Something_Smart]

I like KAAG's reads. (Though I have been liking Ari for scum less and less.)

I would be in favor of somebody stating intent. I feel like people are just repeating what they've already said, and I want to see Kuroi's claim.

[Something_Smart]

Not today. Four isn't enough for a wagon, and it's been hard enough to gain votes on Kuroi. But I would lynch Fire tomorrow, especially if Kuroi flips scum because of the way he defended him.

Do you still think KTS and Kuroi are both town? Because I would heavily disagree with that.

[Something_Smart]

wb

Can we get a shortlist from you?

[Something_Smart]

@Rach: Kuroi's posting today shows fairly blatant scum motivation. Hopping around wagons trying to find one that will stick (and not even trying to lie about doing so) and just a general sense of posting to stay afloat without trying to solve the game.

[Something_Smart]

I'm going to have to look at some ISOs because odds are one of my townreads is wrong.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Fire
Doubtcasting the conftown is a huge scumtell.

[Something_Smart]

I'm comfortable with my vote.

[Something_Smart]

I've seen scum throw doubt on conftown multiple times, and I've never seen town do it. It's just not a town mindset. That plus his response in 2589-2590-2591 makes me fairly confident that he is scum, given that I was already scumreading him.

[Something_Smart]

I don't think it's bad? The 3 deaths absolutely proves a vigi. So either there's two vigis or there's one vigi and some sort of limited SK. Either way, there's no reason to doubt KTS's claim.

[Something_Smart]

Oh ok.
I don't think 2 scum factions is any worse than a scum faction and an SK. I doubt that 15v3v3 is balanced (especially with the low town power we've seen so far), so it would probably mean that today is 7v2v1, same as if we had an SK.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm. 2611 is a good point, but I don't like 2610 either.
Maybe I'm just terrible at reading Firebringer... I really don't like the way he tried to suggest that KTS could be scum nor the way he's pushing on me for that.

@Performer: I don't think your play this game has been bad. Do you agree with DGB re: Firebringer?

[Something_Smart]

don't say that, even as a joke
and also, don't be defeatist because I do think we can figure this out.

[Something_Smart]

Something Smart asked me if I thought both kuroi and KTS could both be town yesterday. With Kuroi flipping town, what is your opinion on that now SS?

I came in here and my first statement was I though kuroi and KTS were both town. Which seemed to be an unpopular opinion at the time.

Given that Kuroi/KTS was TvT, I don't love how you came in and immediately called it as such but by the end of the day you were ready to lynch Kuroi and lynch KTS if he flipped town. You never gave much reasoning to that switch and now you're once again emphasizing that you called that initially.

I really liked your predecessor though
UNVOTE:

[Something_Smart]

Fair enough.

[Something_Smart]

If anyone thinks Slandaar or KAAG are still town, I'd like to hear it.

I did think they were town before today... They'll be my top two priorities to reevaluate because I'm not sure where I stand on Performer's recent posts (I want to call him town but I'm not sure if that feeling is justified).

[Something_Smart]

If anyone thinks Slandaar or KAAG are still town, I'd like to hear it.

I did think they were town before today... They'll be my top two priorities to reevaluate because I'm not sure where I stand on Performer's recent posts (I want to call him town but I'm not sure if that feeling is justified).

What's holding you back from voting KAAG?

I'm pretty sure KAAG is town. He just seemed really genuine early on, and his read progressions make sense, and he seemed to honestly believe most of his pushes.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm. Why are you townreading Slandaar? I'm not as sure about him recently.

[Something_Smart]

Never played with him before. What's his scumgame like?

[Something_Smart]

Hebichan could you explain your scumread on me a little more?

[Something_Smart]

That's not an accurate representation of what happened. You asked me my thoughts on Kuroi/KTS, and I said I didn't like how you started off saying it was TvT and ended up convinced that it was TvS.

[Something_Smart]

No, I was talking about today. Pressuring you about the hammer wasn't the "first thing I did when day started" and it wasn't unprompted like you made it seem.

I feel like you're making two separate arguments here and you're confusing them together. There's my actions yesterday (my push on Kuroi, my unwillingness to switch to Fire) which you still haven't explained what you dislike about (I hope the argument's not just I was wrong and you were right), and then there's my actions today, telling you what I didn't like about you yesterday, as a response to your question directed specifically at me, which is a misrepresentation, as I explained.

[Something_Smart]

I'm trying to sort you because I've engaged a lot with you recently and your slot is relatively low-content.

I'm still sorting through my reads and it's frustrating because I want to townread half the players and the other half I'm getting conflicting signals on. You, Fire and Slandaar are the ones I want to call scum but am having trouble doing so.
(Also KTS is conftown, but if you want to talk about anyone else then I will. I haven't been inclined to share my thoughts because they're so inconclusive but I can focus on specific people if you want.)

[Something_Smart]

@hebichan: I would be okay with pressuring Fire however I'm not sure how enlightening that will be. The thing is that I want to call Fire scum, but I've wanted to call him scum every game I've played with him as town and he never has been. It seems silly to read a player on day 5 based on their predecessor who replaced out day 1 but Creature is like 20 times easier to read and I really didn't like his posts. There's also Fragger's terrible "jester" comment about him and there's the fact that Fire was (is? he's voting me still but hasn't said anything about it recently) pushing me for pointing out a scummy thing that he did... in conclusion, I would vote him, but that doesn't mean that I've come to a conclusion about him.

@Performer: the only game I've played that included RachMarie was this one, and it's not very good for meta. I was already dead when she replaced in (I think it was D4) and the game was suffering from serious apathy issues anyway. So I can't really help you there (though Slandaar and DGB probably can).

[Something_Smart]

Yeah it was. The interaction was like:
Fire says some weird stuff
Fragger says "oh fire must be jester lol"

Like given the quality of Fragger's play this game I could actually see him doing this to try to cover up for his partner's stupidity (which wasn't even stupid, it's just Fire being Fire).

[Something_Smart]

Yeah it was. The interaction was like:
Fire says some weird stuff
Fragger says "oh fire must be jester lol"

Like given the quality of Fragger's play this game I could actually see him doing this to try to cover up for his partner's stupidity (which wasn't even stupid, it's just Fire being Fire).

Yeah, this is your scum game.
This looks so similar to a Fire and Ice game where you were scum its not even funny.

This is my town game 100%. In that game I tried to direct the whole game and I was always sure of everything and my read changes were abrupt and didn't make sense.

[Something_Smart]

Man I'm not sure why I thought it was a good idea to sign up for this game.
I think Fire is town now.
VOTE: hebichan this is probably my most confident scumread tbh (and it's not even that confident)

Also @Nero: KTS is conftown, and at the time that Fire said that he WAS voting me.

Pedit: I agree about Fire but what made you scumread that slot again? just the replacement?

[Something_Smart]

@Performer: I think a massclaim would do more harm than good at this point, as there's still significant unclaimed town power.
I don't like the no lynch idea, though I don't have any idea what you might be talking about so I can't say definitively.

[Something_Smart]

please don't say things like that.

[Something_Smart]

I don't care who said it, don't repeat it.

[Something_Smart]

I think it's your call whether or not to claim, obviously no one else has the information you do... though you've softed hard enough that if you're worried about a NK you've probably said too much already. Honestly if you could get this game going somewhere without serious drawbacks I'd be in favor of it (and if you have results you probably have a decent amount of useful info by now).

[Something_Smart]

What made you decide to claim so soon?

Also, to clarify if it wasn't obvious: I believe Performer to be town.

[Something_Smart]

Performer's idea was for Nero to start off.

How much of the game did you read upon replacing in?

[Something_Smart]

Did you ISO your predecessor?

[Something_Smart]

KTS I have a feeling your music tastes are different from mine but my favorite song ever is Mercedes by Deadmau5, if you want to look it up.
On a more relevant note, what do you think of hebichan's claim?

[Something_Smart]

(aside from KTS obviously)
Performer, DGB, Nero

hebichan, Dominator, Slandaar

[Something_Smart]

9. hebichan - Possible but Nah

Explain.

12. RachMarie - Really Don't think so

Explain.

19. KickAssAndGiggle - Probable

Explain.

[Something_Smart]

Why do you feel DGB is scum?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Dominator

[Something_Smart]

@hebi: why does you getting the sentiment make a difference? Is Fire still a scumread?

@DGB: why?

[Something_Smart]

Which is the reason? Did you switch because you agree that the game is feeling pointless or because there wasn't enough support for the Fire wagon?

[Something_Smart]

By PoE I'm pretty confident that scum are within <hebichan, Fire, Rach, Slandaar>. If we can locate one more town from that group (I'm thinking Fire rn, though I'm not positive) then the game should be solved.

[Something_Smart]

@people who were asking about my reads: I have a pretty strong townread on Nero. KTS is conftown and I have a very strong townread on Performer and a mild one on Fire. Hebichan is the only scumread I have for play; the Slandaar and Rach reads are due to PoE and unimpressive (not really scummy, just kinda meh) posting recently.

[Something_Smart]

This game now. Holy crap you guys post a lot.

[Something_Smart]

Why are you reading Fire as town, SS?

I've played with town!Fire several times and he feels mostly the same. Whoever said that he was useless as town and contributing as scum sounds about right.

I don't like hebichan's recent posting at all.

Tbh I don't think KTS's reads are very good. KAAG's posts were very clearly town, and I think his lack of interactions with Ozgin/Fragger looks good for him when you consider how good Ozgin and Fragger were at distancing with each other. On the other hand, Slandaar's pushing on Ozgin and Fragger is exactly what I would expect from their partner.
And finally, Nero is not playing this how I would expect any reasonable scum to play. Like he's picking a fight with the conftown which shows that he honestly believes in what he's fighting for and he's not sucking up to you at all.

I'm super confused about why people want to shoot me. I think I've been playing one of my better games and I think this game is close to solved. There's no way that scum could have an extra kill because the night of 3 deaths 2 were scum so 2 kills had to come from non-scum, so odds are it's one scum (possibly a roleblocker) and an SK. In that scenario, today is only MYLO if KTS shoots tonight.
Honestly I'm okay with being shot if Nero flips scum because my reads this game were already pretty bad and hopefully whoever of KTS and Performer survives can find the remaining scum. But I really don't think he will, and I'm afraid that he'll flip town and KTS will shoot me anyway.
I'm about ready for this game to end. If we can work out a failsafe plan for when Nero flips town then I'll follow Performer and KTS onto him. But not before then.

[Something_Smart]

i think I've been playing one of my better games and I think this game is close to solved

....
I don't see how we are close to being solved in the game, unless we get flips. We never got one lynch right in the game.

because of the conftowns and strong townreads... as long as you don't lynch Nero

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler: quotes

Slandaar,

What reason is there not to have an RVS vote on when it's 11 to lynch?

The point is: I see nothing wrong with unvoting when the vote is pointless. That said you didn't answer the question; What reason is there to have an RVS vote at the point he unvoted? (when it clearly achieved nothing).

I don't mind the unvoting so much, but there were plenty of possible people who could have taken a vote. Pick a reason and commit. I think people should take positions early so they can be challenged on them. Town's job is to use their vote to sort.

Reactions to RVS votes, and the way the RVS reasons are phrased, is the way I see most games move into the proper nitty-gritty. How would you move the game forward, if you disagree?

Do I disagree that most games start with RVS? no.

RVS was short in this game. Jam effectively ended it with his post which did not contain a vote amusingly.

What has this got to do with anything?

I don't even remotely agree Jam ended it at that point. In no scenario is RVS over when multiple people haven't even posted.

When will you commit to a single read? Here's two for you from me:

Golden Robster: town-lean, doesn't care how he comes across, posting what he darn well chooses
Ness: scum-lean, way too defensive, quotes back the weakest attacks and picks at them

Your turn.

Drixx, although "Both" is also very possible.

Fragger is defensive, but Drixx is defensive and dismissive. I don't quite understand why he brings up some past game where he happened to be town to draw comparisons from either.

The interaction between him and Firebringer was weird too: looked like possible scum-theater.

The only real push Fragger has made is on someone I feel is likely town (iraonavp). There's "bad" reads and then their are "inexplicable" reads. It's kind of inexplicable. Also Fragger apparently liked Drixx on D1, and has reiterated that on D2. As I find that extra inexplicable...maybe I should in fact revise my original answer to simply "Both".

aris is so hard to read

Agreed.

Anyone else finding Oz hard to read?

His cases seem convoluted & constipated on first impression , much like Keyser Soze's cases – on d1. Later he had an outrageously hard-to-read 1258 wall on d2 that moved me to place him at null. His 20 was an unsubstantial post, 252 was way brief, 560+561+720+1051+1168+1368+1461+1599+1717 = fluff posts.

He posts some fluff, but if you're ill, you're ill: I'd rather he let us know there's a reason for him not posting much. I didn't have a problem with 1258 really: I essentially agree with his ISO analysis on KTS. Overall, I don't find him super suspicious: there's 3 or 4 others I'd go for first.

FINALLY a day phase that starts on a weekend. I'm still somewhat angry about the game being reopened after over 2 hours. 4 mods...come on! People are busy and for me, weekdays mean I may resort largely to phone posting, which takes away a big chunk of my play . Anyway.

Snark's fake claim was indeed odd but the fact that ira & Something added votes on him after a PR claim - that is very disturbing. Adding that to my notes. When someone claims PR, even if they're lying - that can be dealt with as the game went on. I wish I was here during the final moments because I would've seriously unvoted and moved it back to Aris, who accumulated more votes near the end.

When S_S voted, there were minutes to deadline:

There are

SEVENTEEN

minutes until deadline.

Even if you were online, there wouldn't have been any hope of getting the lynch changed. I will be looking at those who started the wagon or jumped on easily: iraonavp and S_S are the two I least suspect on that wagon.

Let's start here: VOTE: Firebringer


PEdit: LOL, nice. Why?

@KAAG

Here's the issue I have with your argument.

Something_Smart, Ozgin, Slandaar = town
iraonavp, killthestory, Performer = prob!town
Guy/Replace, Yume, Kuroi, ilikebugs, DGB = unclear
Aristo, Frag = scummy
Drixx, FB = scum

Those are your most updated reads from your 1935

In the world where you think I'm mafia, alongside Drixx & Fire means you believe I as mafia would hard defend my partner Drixx throughout day one, day two & day three openly. It also means you believe I would hard defend Fire late day two, call him a PR which I read him as & then continue to express my belief that Fire is a PR & defend them into day three. Which is implausible & extremely dumb if I was actually mafia, which I'm not.

I find the fact you think you hard-defended Drixx laughable to the max. Two sentences saying he's vaguely towny?

Regarding FB:

Also there's no world in the world of ever that Fire is scum, based on his interaction with Aristo I mentioned earlier.

This is the only reference to FB you made late on D2 that I could see. Are you saying I should read this as you reading him as a PR?

OK. You're scum.

UNVOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: Fraggernaut

KAAG, what are your thoughts on DGB recently? Is she still "unclear"?

I think that making a scum list that contains two dead players is probably town. Scum would be more careful.

As for the second question: my push was substantiated and actually contributed to the wagon. You had him as a scumread but never showed much interest in wagoning him and you switched off him for a weak reason after the claim.

[Something_Smart]

^this is a scum vote

I'm not consolidating anything. This wagon has all the signs of being a town wagon, the biggest being that everyone wants to lynch someone else a little more but is willing to compromise. I've never seen one of those wagons hit scum.

Tbh whoever's scum (hebi and Slandaar, probably) deserves to win a heck of a lot more than town does. *sigh* I'm definitely not signing up for another large, this was way too much effort and is way too disappointing.

[Something_Smart]

I'm so confused

[Something_Smart]

the hell?
what does bulletproof have to do with anything?

[Something_Smart]

What dual role did he claim? And yeah, SK's are commonly BP, why does that matter at all?

[Something_Smart]

Mod: I'll be V/LA until Monday. I should still have some access though.

[Something_Smart]

My take away from this is don't play larges, because if you do, you might draw a role that for balance purposes is really supposed to die fairly early in the game, and then all the towncred you worked so hard to earn will vanish when you have to hard defend your partner because you have no shot at winning as the last scum alive.

Anyway, this would have been more fun and less disappointing if I had rolled literally any other role, but GG and WP Slandaar!

[Something_Smart]

I will give them 48 hours to object. Normally I just release but scum would be under the impression of Aero's pt release rules.

Thanks to NM for the vote counts. Sorry for total lack of flavor. I know nothing about the band.

I object to any objections to releasing the scum PT.

[Something_Smart]

I'm still not sure why people thought Slandaar was confirmed not-SK after he was tracked on a night with only one kill and a scum roleblocker, who seemed determined to lynch Slandaar no less, already flipped.

[Something_Smart]

I wasn't right about a single scum. So who killed me? Slandaar?

Must have been, we tried to shoot Slandaar that night.