New Normal Guidelines - April 2017 update!

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Post Post #134 (isolation #0) » Thu May 21, 2015 8:55 am

Post by Ether »

It's interesting. Godfathers used to be ubiquitous, but they're only in 7 of the most recent 90 mini normals. (If anyone's curious, 6 of those 7 had a full cop, compared to
11
12 full cops for the other 83 mini normals.)

I wish the Normal rules had a place for roles that are normal if, and only if, they are announced publicly or the town is otherwise given explicit warning. A tailor/framer would be a much better role if the town knew about it beforehand, or if its existence were confirmed in the cop's role PM, and that would take the cop down a peg too.

EDIT: looked at the archives a little more closely.
Last edited by Ether on Fri May 22, 2015 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #145 (isolation #1) » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:08 am

Post by Ether »

So, uh...

I posted this in the NRG treehouse, but I'm not sure how many normal reviewers actually read the NRG treehouse? It didn't get any response, anyway. Naturally that means the only thing to do is KEEP POSTING IT.



I really don't like vanilla cops as weakened rolecops. Rolecops already aren't that strong, and we have plenty of crappy investigative roles already. A role that returns the same positive results on mafiates and town power roles is a lot more interesting, strategically. Even if "vanilla cop" doesn't wind up being the name for that role, it should still exist.

(Speaking of which, I also like the idea of a role that gets positive results on mafiates and SOME power roles but not on others, determined during setup design and not inherent to the roles themselves. Gunsmith positives always felt arbitrary to me, and I think it would have been better to just straight-up say that they're arbitrary per game then tie their results to flavor that doesn't exist.)

I wish we had a one-word name for motion detectors. I REALLY wish we had a better name for friendly neighbors, because having both neighbors and friendly neighbors as completely unrelated roles is dumb. Maybe Debutante or Socialite for the latter?

I think the voyeur/follower results should be a lot more condensed than what NAR covers; I don't think NAR works very well for that. Here's what I'd go with:
  • -Kill. This is a straightforward one!
    -Disrupt. This covers roleblocking and rolestopping, but also covers other roles that mess with other player's actions. So if framers, tailors and bus drivers were normal, or if you had a follower in a theme game, this is what it'd get. Note that a voyeur targetting someone who's been rolestopped will still get [No Result], not [Disrupted].
    -Investigate. Any of the many roles that gets results (and get specifically notified if they're disruptive, which most roles don't) falls here. Yeah, trackers and cops work on sort of different principles, but I don't think there's a good reason in practice to distinguish here.
    -Empower. This directly gives new powers or information to other players.
    Friendly neighbors
    Debutantes and neighborizers fall under here. Fruit vendors and message senders technically do, even if the information is just "You now have a kiwi." Inventors and motivators also go here, in theory.
    -Protect. Technically a specialized disruptive role that only disrupts nightkills.
    -Visit. This is the miscellaneous section, which for normal game purposes only applies to custom roles.


Any action that does or can potentially do more than one of these things gets the highest applicable result--so, a follower will see a gaoler being Disruptive. For the same reason, a CPR doctor is a Killing role, not a Protective role, in theory. (Obviously CPR doctors are not normal.) Note that action types that are more likely to come from scum are closer to the top.

If people are interested, I can expand this and make a thread about it to try to cover roles in themes better. There's plenty of space not covered by that list, but it's not really applicable to the current Normal queue, mostly.
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Post Post #147 (isolation #2) » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:30 pm

Post by Ether »

In post 145, Ether wrote:A role that returns the same positive results on mafiates and town power roles is a lot more interesting, strategically. Even if "vanilla cop" doesn't wind up being the name for that role, it should still exist.

Neapolitan.
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Post Post #149 (isolation #3) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:02 am

Post by Ether »

Gunsmiths are tied to arbitrary flavor, so they can't out doctors and some other list of roles that was never compiled with mechanical impact in mind. I don't oppose them, exactly, although I would still prefer it if their results varied from game to game. But they aren't the same thing, even if they fill similar niches.

Vanilla cops in the nerfed rolecop sense and vanilla cops in the detect vanilla townies only sense were previously used at an almost even split. But with vanilla cops being standardized as the former, the latter doesn't even have a name now. This design space is important, and it needs to keep existing.

As far as I can find, exactly two motion detectors have been used in completed games on this site, and both of them are in games that are over 5 years old. I don't really have a problem with them being normal now, but I don't think that that's an accurate reflection of site meta at all.

EDIT: Those motion detectors were nerfed trackers, incidentally. They weren't affected by their target being targeted, so it's not even quite the same role.
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Post Post #153 (isolation #4) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:22 am

Post by Ether »

Crappy investigative roles are fine! But there need to be ones that give meaningful results as well. The way to have fewer cops isn't to add roles that barely do anything--it's to offer roles that are valid alternatives to cops, but just a liiiiiiiiiiiittle weaker. People might dislike cops, but that's what's available in that niche, so we'll keep seeing more of them if all the alternatives go too far in the opposite direction.

mykonian wrote:This was actually a topic of discussion when these new normal guidelines were set up. The decision was made to standardise and write down in the wiki what people would recognise as a gunsmith. Quite simply, there's not a precedent for "role that gets positive on x, y and z roles" apart from the gunsmith, and it's always more or less had the same group of roles it finds. "Normal" isn't what the NRG thinks the game should be, it's what (the NRG thinks) people expect out of a normal game. It's not the NRG's job to invent new roles. Doesn't mean that mods aren't invited to do that, there's at least one slot in a normal game where they can put a non whitelist role which uses normal mechanics.
"More or less" is the keyword there. Different games--and the NRG itself--had different interpretations on whether gaolers and bodyguards and other non-killing roles had guns. And now we have a standard, but that's not the only one we could have gone with!

I don't know. It's common and useful, but it's one that's inherently tied to flavorful roles in a queue where we discourage flavorful roles. I think we could have done better.
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Post Post #155 (isolation #5) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:37 am

Post by Ether »

Sort of.

But what if gunsmiths that
did
have to ask the mod every time, and got only a "No comment" in reply, were a feature instead of a bug? What if gunsmiths not knowing for sure if they had actually caught scum in a lie was completely intentional?

There's a place for putting absolutely every edge-case up front in the role PM, but there's also a place for leaving things in the mod notes. I think gunsmiths fall under the latter.
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Post Post #157 (isolation #6) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:55 am

Post by Ether »

Why?
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Post Post #158 (isolation #7) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:04 am

Post by Ether »

Anyway I'm saying all this but the vanilla cop/neapolitan and socialite/debutante stuff is more important.

The NAR stuff is mostly a problem because it handles voyeurs/followers by slotting in each individual role, instead of using better defined but more open-ended categories. And maybe that's okay in the normal queue, but really we should be able to have a voyeur/follower that works the exact same way regardless of the queue it's in.
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Post Post #161 (isolation #8) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:27 am

Post by Ether »

Sure, except it's not a nasty surprise! It's exactly what gunsmiths have expected in the past, especially if the mod's up front about that.

Avoiding hidden information for the sake of avoiding hidden information is kind of tautological. Mod notes are a problem when the player doesn't know there are mod notes at all, and then they spring up as a "gotcha." Not knowing everything about the setup is a perfectly normal part of closed games.
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Post Post #163 (isolation #9) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:34 am

Post by Ether »

Not really.

Framers are so left field that occasionally lynching a townie by surprise and probably also getting the cop lynched next and screwing up everything is all they're good for. If every game had a framer in it, then it would be possible to argue your way out of guilties and they'd loop back into being a good role, but framers are nearly unheard of, so they're terrible.

A gunsmith positive isn't the same as a cop guilty, and gunsmiths know that. This is about embracing that kind of role. And I think making them
more
ambiguous actually helps with that.
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Post Post #165 (isolation #10) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:46 am

Post by Ether »

Could you spell out an example?

To be clear, I don't want gunsmiths to go back to the way they were...or, not exactly. What I'm pushing for is for mods to just say outright, "All vanilla townies get a negative result, all mafia get a positive result, and town power roles could go either way." Which I don't think tricks anybody. It's taking what they were to its logical extreme--but an extreme that
is
perfectly logical, I think.
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Post Post #168 (isolation #11) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:42 am

Post by Ether »

chamber wrote:I think your 'vanilla town cop' or w/e you want to call it is a fine idea. It should be definitive and separate from talk of gunsmith or gunsmith like roles though.

Absolutely! People keep arguing about the gunsmith, so I feel like I have to argue back. But the vanilla cop/neapolitan thing is more important to me, let's be clear.

I think your example is a valid concern from the pre-clarification days of gunsmiths, which kind of goes back to how gunsmiths are inherently tied to flavor. If we revamped it, then ideally I'd want things to get to a point where doctors
aren't
specifically associated with "not having guns," whatever that means--but yeah, gunsmith maybe isn't the best name for the role at that point.
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Post Post #170 (isolation #12) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:39 pm

Post by Ether »

The trouble with framers is that nobody used them, even when they were on the whitelist. So it was safe to assume they weren't in any given game and act accordingly. The WIFOM factor they were supposed to create wasn't there; they were just a dumb "gotcha" that screwed over the town on the rare occasions when they did show up and score a hit.

It's a shame, because that WIFOM factor would be huge if we could actually have it. It would be awesome if arguing your way out of a guilty was a thing people could actually do. I think you'd have to outright say "This game contains a tailor" now (or put that warning into the cop's role PM) to make it work, but I'd love to see that happen.

It'd be pretty cool to add a list of roles that are blacklisted UNLESS they were confirmed by the mod to be in the game, but I've picked enough arguments for the moment. Use neapolitans!
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Post Post #172 (isolation #13) » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:15 pm

Post by Ether »

Cops need a concrete reason to pay attention or they'll ignore it. The point of tailors isn't to give scum occasional free mislynches that screw over the game and trick the town into clearing mafia: it's to let guilty results argue their way out of lynches, and keep otherwise confirmed townies potentially lynchable. The WIFOM factor is the whole point.
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Post Post #178 (isolation #14) » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:40 pm

Post by Ether »

Yeah, we should really bring hiders back. They were pretty unambiguous when I was around? A bit complicated, but the exact same mechanics every time. The weird "every role that targets the person you're hiding with also targets you" thing came later.

Neapolitans are a new name for an old role, which were left orphaned when Vanilla Cop was standardized to mean something else. You should use a lot of them!
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Post Post #180 (isolation #15) » Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:17 pm

Post by Ether »

Man, the weak part is the
best
part of hiders.

Really, the weak modifier's pretty interesting in general, and it's a shame it's not used as much anymore. It's a nice unique approach to investigative roles.
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Post Post #183 (isolation #16) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:36 am

Post by Ether »

I wouldn't want the commute to work, unless the hider can still be countered and safely killed by a mafia roleblocker.

I...don't think I'm a fan of decoupling the hider from the weak aspect. It's fine in theory, but in practice, the weak modifier is used very rarely, and with almost no connection to the role it was historically attached to. I'd rather just have the redundancy than explain the whole history of the role to every single mod who wants to use a hider, especially five years from now. I'd want
not
being weak to be a very rare exception if it happens at all, and I don't think there's a way to do that while making Weakness something mods choose to tack on separately.
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Post Post #188 (isolation #17) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:21 am

Post by Ether »

I think that depends on the reviewers you get. Personally, I really dislike the idea that scum can get wrongly confirmed as innocent because the town didn't outguess the mod hard enough. In other cases there are good reasons to give the scum abilities that would normally go to town, but an all-scum set of neighbors...that seems like a thing that exists 100% to mess with people's heads, which is iffy.

In a semiopen setup you have more room to clarify things like that. If you specifically say beforehand that any and all neighbors could be scum, and the whole town can see it, then that would be kind of tacky but I wouldn't object.
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Post Post #190 (isolation #18) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:17 am

Post by Ether »

Yeah, it's one of those things that isn't explicitly banned, but that the reviewers can still subjectively refuse to pass.
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Post Post #200 (isolation #19) » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:57 pm

Post by Ether »

I've never heard of limited-shot bulletproofs being notified. There's debate?

In theory I wouldn't have a problem with having it both ways, though I think that goes against our standard "standards for everything" policy.
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Post Post #205 (isolation #20) » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:49 pm

Post by Ether »

We have.

I don't really like the solution, because it falls apart in the face of themed games*, but that is the standard.

*
See here for what I wanted, except move Rolestopper to Protection because I thought it was like a gaoler at the time for some reason.
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Post Post #207 (isolation #21) » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:52 am

Post by Ether »

To be honest I don't really understand the Golden Rule part. But it seems pretty clear from the list that the commuter making itself immune to everything (including the roleblock) takes priority.
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Post Post #209 (isolation #22) » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:51 pm

Post by Ether »

I get this feeling that the Golden Rule is saying in big words something that most people just do instinctively.

I could be missing something, though.
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Post Post #217 (isolation #23) » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:13 am

Post by Ether »

Yes, but only if you also tell it how many shots the bulletproof has left.
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Post Post #271 (isolation #24) » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:15 am

Post by Ether »

The thing with ninjas is that they're also the best (normal) answer to watchers. It's dumb that that's bundled up with tracker immunity, especially when trackers are so much weaker than cops in the first place, but there aren't any roles that only cover one and not the other.

There's talk of putting godfathers back, on the condition that they're announced in signups. If that happens, other scum roles like framers would also be added in that capacity.
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Post Post #273 (isolation #25) » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:21 am

Post by Ether »

It isn't.
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Post Post #276 (isolation #26) » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:26 am

Post by Ether »

Correct. The rest of the setup could be closed if we pass this, it'd only be redlisted roles that would have to be announced.
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Post Post #282 (isolation #27) » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:26 am

Post by Ether »

Option 2 is completely pointless, in my eyes. It's what we had before when godfathers were whitelisted, and before that when framers were whitelisted, but the threat of a POSSIBLE godfather doesn't affect people's play.

The essential purpose of godfathers and so on was never to feed false results to cops. It was to alter the meta so that cops' results are taken with a grain of salt. Godfathers failed to do this, and that's why they were judged as more trouble than they're worth in the end.

I do want the meta to have counters to cops, lots of them, more of them than currently exist. Personally, I'd love to see some games with cops that know for a fact that there are tailors out there to trip them up.
That
would be a fun counter.
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Post Post #289 (isolation #28) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:55 am

Post by Ether »

I like the name Boolean Cop for that. (Reference.)

I'm not a huge fan of it, though. It's not terrible, but...if it dies early, it's useless, and if it survives a long time, it's just as strong as a normal cop. I feel like that's the opposite of a good nerf?

Anyway, having sanities in normal games doesn't really seem worth it to me. It's trickier to announce than mafia-aligned roles would be.
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Post Post #291 (isolation #29) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:00 am

Post by Ether »

Huh?
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Post Post #293 (isolation #30) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:08 am

Post by Ether »

Right. What about them?
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Post Post #296 (isolation #31) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:23 am

Post by Ether »

Er...why not? How does one of those things connect to the other?
As I move my vote
Towards your wagon, town is taking note
It fills my head up and gets louder and
LOUDER
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