New Normal Guidelines - April 2017 update!

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #264 (isolation #0) » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:05 pm

Post by Davsto »

In post 259, N wrote:
1 April
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #281 (isolation #1) » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:29 am

Post by Davsto »

Yeah I think the inherent problem is with the Cop tbh
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #301 (isolation #2) » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:17 am

Post by Davsto »

Millers will claim either before or after insepction as they are town - it's quite a different ballpark to "yep innocent result they're town"
There's a difference between being unable to trust innocents and being unable to trust guilties

Those are the main two points I can think of
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #307 (isolation #3) » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:17 am

Post by Davsto »

Because someone seen as not targeting anyone on the night that someone dies isn't an instant "yes they're town".
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #313 (isolation #4) » Sat May 07, 2016 2:13 am

Post by Davsto »

Curious

Since Godfather is removed

Should a Mafia Doctor in a setup with a Gunsmith and no non-Mafia killing roles be blacklisted too? It serves virtually the same purpose.
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #319 (isolation #5) » Sat May 07, 2016 2:55 am

Post by Davsto »

In post 314, callforjudgement wrote:The whole point of Gunsmith is that it has potential false positives and false negatives, in a way that can be predicted / isn't bastard. So I guess it'd make more sense to blacklist Gunsmith if you're worried about that.
Really, Gunsmith is basically a Normalized version of an imperfectly-sane cop who knows that there are ways they can be mislead.
But... isn't a Cop exactly the same? Everyone knows that Millers and Godfathers exist. It always has had some potential false positives and negatives. I don't see how it functions any differently besides the false positives and negatives falling on different roles.
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #320 (isolation #6) » Sat May 07, 2016 2:56 am

Post by Davsto »

In post 315, chilledtea wrote:If there is mafia doc, then there should be a killing force capable of killing mafia. In that case, town can take enough precautions wrt gunsmith's results.
Did you miss the part where I said
In post 313, Davsto wrote:a Mafia Doctor in a setup with a Gunsmith
and no non-Mafia killing roles
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #322 (isolation #7) » Sat May 07, 2016 3:13 am

Post by Davsto »

It should be allowed when the Mafia Doc has a function, such as protecting from a vigilante/sk. This generally provides a superbig hint that it does exist in the setup, particularly if a kill fails to go through and there is no reason given by town players.

I'm not saying any good setup maker would use a Mafia Doc when there is no vigilante but there is a gunsmith.

I'm merely pointing out a potential loophole that should be closed, and not in an unofficial "oh the NRG will stop that" kind of way, I mean an actual definitive rule.
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #325 (isolation #8) » Sat May 07, 2016 7:31 am

Post by Davsto »

A Gunsmith is a Cop that gets false guilities and innocents on slightly different roles from cops. Sure, "technically" it checks to see if they have a gun, but in gunsmith setups they are basically always used as an alignment investigative. Sure, there are the false results, but there are false results with Cops too, albeit in a slightly different fashion.

Now, I'm fine with a Gunsmith setup with false guilties and innocents, over a Cop setup really because they're a lot more predictable and can be proven or disproved. For example there is no way of proving a Miller claim besides Role Cop, but you can prove a vigilante through the second death. Meanwhile on the false innocent side, through (to give an example) a vigilante shot disappearing with no idea where it went, the players can accurately guess at the existence of a Mafia Doctor.

The kind of stuff I'm talking about is (at a bare bones level):

6 VT, 1 Cop, 1 Goon, 1 Godfather
6 VT, 1 Gunsmith, 1 Goon, 1 Mafia Doctor

Besides the Mafia Doctor's "protect" (which is
entirely
functionless in this setup), those setups are identical, yet only one of them is blacklisted.

My problem I see is that, if not regulated, people who want to make an investigative-based setup where the investigative can get false innocents (which Cop no longer can with Godfather dead) can make a setup around a Gunsmith which is entirely functionally identical to a blacklisted-due-to-godfather setup with a Cop.

I'm not saying outright blacklist Gunsmiths, or Maf Docs, I'm just saying that this seems like a loophole which could be abused with little effort to get around the Godfather blacklisting, and a large part of me would be happier in Normal games if this was something that was explicitly stated as not allowed.
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #327 (isolation #9) » Sat May 07, 2016 9:02 am

Post by Davsto »

Really? I can't talk from experience because I've never been a Cop in a non-open setup, but my first thought would be to take any results with a pinch of salt because godfathers/millers exist and many Normal mods would put one in when there is a Cop.
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #330 (isolation #10) » Sat May 07, 2016 9:58 am

Post by Davsto »

My main issue is that I'm worried that, with Godfathers being banned, we'll see a rise in Gunsmiths to essentially "get around" that whole rule, loophole abuse, etc, since it's not overly difficult to create a setup that is functionally identical to a blacklisted Cop equivalent.
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”