Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[MagnaofIllusion]

Could people PLEASE stop using KT as an abbreviation? I understand Kain got replaced but there is still plenty of room for misunderstanding between Creeper and Killthestory IMO. Thanks!

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I don't have an issue with you asking me about why I left you off the list. But having a townread in not appeasement. If I was townreading you, why would I say anything else?

Also, I don't really understand what your issue is with Acryon saying that he is hard to lynch but that people might have attacked him thinking he was low-hanging fruit because he hadn't done much of anything in the first few pages.

I can understand that my statement may not sit well with you. Maybe if I explain more clearly you’ll understand my point of view. Just because you called me Town in response isn’t the reason that said I found your response somewhat suspect. Actually what triggered it for me was the response itself. I expected something along the lines of “Oh, I forgot. Let me look at your ISO” in your response. Later I would have expected a short post (or short part of a longer post) explaining the results of your ISO read. Keep in mind this may have happened behind the scenes and you just short-cut the process. Essentially your reply somewhat reinforced my concern which reads list post which caused my original question. Every player is going to have some posts I find suspect. Personally mostly I file them in my notes and mull them over as the day and game progresses.

As to not understanding Acryon – I don’t buy it at all. Low Hanging Fruit in my mind are players like Drmyshotty (I’m drawing on my last round of play back in 11/12) who were always an easy mislynch waiting to be pushed if they were Town. The closest we might have this game appears to Creeper and I would not put him in that category myself. Acryon’s post specifically used what I see as charged language in a situation where it isn’t even close to appropriate IMO. Add in that I was already scum-reading him for prior play, simmer over a fire and the resulting recipie is a fine scum stew from my persepective.

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Can I add the whole “backfoot” discussion is really absurd? I don’t see what Acryon is claiming at all in the Nosferatu and Ollie discussion in regards to either Nos being on the defensive or it being a 1v1 conversation that is scummy to comment on.

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Have you played any games with Kain? There's a difference between lack of engagement and not bothering to show up at all.

"And you are calling Bella scum while not voting for her …"

Be-cause ... we ... are ... vo-ting ... for ... Kain. Derp.

Um enlighten me – how is not showing up to a game more indicative of having received a scum role Pm than giving low effort? I’d really like to know. For the record – never had the pleasure of playing with Kain.

I’m dinging you on not voting Bella while calling her scum because you are calling Bella scum for things that actually happened in thread while voting Kain for being completely absent. Unless you have some big explanation for me about that being a scum-tell I don’t quite see that a Town oriented thought process.

I am fine with a ChurchOfMercy lynch today.

I'm diffident about whether to read through for other scumreads as well before seeing the flip.

So to be clear - are you calling church scum or just want them lynched because they voted Kain?

Nothing is scummy about it at all because if I were scum I wouldn't care about the flip!

#bestlogic

Is this comedy? I hope this is comedy.

[Imperium]

Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.

If Nosferatu was pretty clearly on the backfoot (aka losing), I don't think it's exactly unreasonable for a town Oceanwind to side with Ollie (the winner); sure, it's possible that OceanWind as scum was siding with the winner, taking advantage of someone when they're vulnerable, but I don't think that's far more likely than someone agreeing with the stronger side of the argument. What do you think of OceanWind's townread on jmo?

What is your read on Ollie now?

Town. Did you need me to expand on this?

where's your head at with kill the story?

I don't really have a significant read on him; he's confident and aggressive and I don't exactly disagree with his reads, but I also don't really have a strong bead on his scumgame and haven't found any thought processes or plays that seem overwhelmingly town.

what are your thoughts on nos?

Leaning town; I thought their initial observation re:Ollie was decent, seemed genuine, and I liked their attitude when being attacked by Ollie and OceanWind in general (it seemed confident enough where they believed in what they were saying).

Why did you choose to ask me about these two players?

Ocean. Super town. Confident early game, some good posting 39. Actively scum-hunting. Easy town.

Could you go a little more in depth in this read?
The things that you point out in OceanWind's play are things that I'm not really sure are scumtells for him; I don't think he'd have any trouble at all faking reasonable sounding scumhunting as scum, and I'm extremely confident that confidence isn't a towntell for him.

I am fine with a ChurchOfMercy lynch today.

I'm diffident about whether to read through for other scumreads as well before seeing the flip.

My personal opinion is that you read through for other scumreads, if you don't mind; both replacements are pretty big question marks for me and it'd be nice to see what you two bring to the table.

[Imperium]

Magna, what is your read on jmo?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hello sorry I haven't been on in the past few days, some things popped up

So I'm going to read the thread a few times and make a read list on my thought so far

This I would like to see.

I'm not particularly sure this tell is something we should be chasing rather than trying to sort out what has already been occurring. Why did you choose to ignore taking a side on the KT and Lowell debacle?

Because I don’t see an RVS wagon and Creeper’s response to be meaningful to alignment in any way IMO. And Lowell … he’s Lowell. I don’t expect high levels of engagement or strong logical play. So seeing that attack out of him reads as flat Null to me. Personally I think you are reading way too much into Creeper’s post as an exercise in “faking” Town easy going nature. It was a single vote that prompted it. Why exactly do you think he would need to fake a Town attitude off a single RVS vote?

Is this a common scum tactic you've seen? Turning around immediately after they are called out for doing or not doing something to then right the wrong and abate some of the suspicion? Forgive me, but I fail to see what scum would ever do something like that.

You are forgiven. But in all seriousness – for a large swath of scum appeasement style posts I find to generally be a good tell to go with. You in this post also mention several instances of appeasement posting (ex: Ollie’s vote on Creeper after Bella interaction). I find these type of “get mentioned and come running” posts to be a variant on appeasement posting.

Now there are several strata of player-types that doesn’t work for. Mainly the super-boastful and the well seasoned vets. Luckily we don’t have the worst style of offender in this game for the former and I purposefully didn’t bother even trying that sort of poking and prodding on the later in this game.

Magna, what is your read on jmo?

Null. He’s pretty much non-engaged. I don’t give any ‘dumb Town’ credit for 32-33 but it certainly doesn’t warrant scum-points either. I can see why, if he doesn’t know Lowell from Adam, Lowell’s call of me as Town early would be suspect. 62 is full of logical Town oriented thinking. His line of thinking in 179 and 206 about scum being in best position to call other players Town on little basis is a theory I believe in personally. Hell, if not for the fact that he is very non-engaged (other than going after Lowell and Killthestory) I’d probably be very comfortable with a fairly solid Town read on the slot.

[ChurchOfMercy]

Still catching up, but what's your read on jmo and would you be willing to help me push there?

I'm fine with that. Klingon can sign off on it.

Albert

[Imperium]

I had no real issues with every post up until this one. It gives off the distinct tones of scum trying to present a laid-back comedic town attitude, but the delivery just falls flat. It could be a matter of the person, but this post makes no legitimate sense as to why it was posted or what it sought to achieve other than the above.

I agree that this post is a bit of a strange post, but, from what I've read of KTthecreeper, his posts are a little strange tonally, and I find the follow-up explanation that he posted to be pretty damn believable and fairly creative coming from a newer scum player. I also feel like I have a pretty good handle on his thought process on scum based on my familiarity with this scum topic (if you glance through it quickly, you'll probably be able to see where I'm coming from), and the "I'm going to make this post to sound laid back and funny" scum motivation that you're looking for here doesn't really mesh with his thought process does. What does mesh well, however, is the "trying new approaches in order to fix problems in his towngame" piece. I don't think he's a self-aware enough player to fake this particular aspect of his meta (I don't think he's aware of my familiarity of his meta), and to address a concern you bring up later in this wall, I don't think that if he was trying to pander to me specifically just by posting more "words" that it would align so closely with his previous thoughts about his town game.

Does that make sense?

[Imperium]

Still catching up, but what's your read on jmo and would you be willing to help me push there?

I'm fine with that. Klingon can sign off on it.

Albert

Also, why were you scumreading us earlier?

[ChurchOfMercy]

Gut read.

Albert

[acryon]

If Nosferatu was pretty clearly on the backfoot (aka losing), I don't think it's exactly unreasonable for a town Oceanwind to side with Ollie (the winner); sure, it's possible that OceanWind as scum was siding with the winner, taking advantage of someone when they're vulnerable, but I don't think that's far more likely than someone agreeing with the stronger side of the argument. What do you think of OceanWind's townread on jmo?

Like I said in my back and forth with OceanWind, I've come around on this argument, but at my first read-through it felt like taking advantage.

Regarding his read on jmo, I think it makes sense from his perspective, although I don't necessarily agree that he's town. More null to me, because I haven't see enough.

[Imperium]

Null. He’s pretty much non-engaged. I don’t give any ‘dumb Town’ credit for 32-33 but it certainly doesn’t warrant scum-points either. I can see why, if he doesn’t know Lowell from Adam, Lowell’s call of me as Town early would be suspect. 62 is full of logical Town oriented thinking. His line of thinking in 179 and 206 about scum being in best position to call other players Town on little basis is a theory I believe in personally. Hell, if not for the fact that he is very non-engaged (other than going after Lowell and Killthestory) I’d probably be very comfortable with a fairly solid Town read on the slot.

This makes sense; I guess that my scumread on him was mostly founded on previous experience with him (he's not usually this disconnected from a game) and thought maybe that OW's townread on jmo was him protecting a scumpartner in a better position than Church, but now I'm coming around to the fact that I'm probably getting too ahead of myself, hence not minding this Day going a bit longer so I can get a better bead on some of the lower volume posters.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This makes sense; I guess that my scumread on him was mostly founded on previous experience with him (he's not usually this disconnected from a game) and thought maybe that OW's townread on jmo was him protecting a scumpartner in a better position than Church, but now I'm coming around to the fact that I'm probably getting too ahead of myself, hence not minding this Day going a bit longer so I can get a better bead on some of the lower volume posters.

I understand this but a quick glance at that link shows it is like 3 years old. Not to say that it might not be a valid observation - we haven't really seen enough of jmo to make a firm opinion IMO - but I wouldn't feel comfortable leaning on it as of now.

What do you know of Klingon? I'd like your thoughts on the whole "Kain is scum for not showing up but low engagement is not a scum-tell" thing. Because that causes my alarm klaxons to go ringing big-time. Am I overthinking?

[Imperium]

My last experience with Klingon (I believe) involved me spearheading a mislynch on her because she made a lot of posts where she complained about people not listening to her and urged the town to kill certain people if she died, then claimed a role that could choose between doctoring and vigging but didn't end up vigging them because she didn't want to accidentally kill a townie; I didn't think this meshed, I was horribly wrong.

As it stands, I find the Kain vote ridiculously shallow especially when her hydra partner is being pushed for lack of engagement (I don't think it's a direct contradiction because the Kain vote is Klingon but the "lack of engagement isn't scummy" was Albert), I find the confident scumreads but absolutely nothing to back them up as something more indicative from posturing scum than confident town (not to mention it conflicts with the whole "I'm not very good at D1 statement earlier), so no, I don't think you're overthinking things at all.

[kelbris]

vote count 1.04

Bellaphant (0): none
Severa (0): none
Jim (0): none
jmo16mla (1): Ollie
MagnaofIllusion (0): none
Imperium (0): none
Killthestory (0): none
ChurchOfMercy (hydra, Klingoncelt and Albert B Rampage) (7) [L-1]: Oceanwind, Lowell, Imperium, Bellaphant, MagnaofIllusion, killthestory, Severa,
Lowell (1): jmo16mla
Nosferatu (1): acryon
acryon (0): none
OceanWind (1): KTthecreeper
KTthecreeper (1): ChurchofMercy
Ollie (1): Nosferatu
With 14 players alive, it takes 8 votes to lynch.
day 1 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-04-16 19:01:46)

[Killthestory]

VOTE: Jim

[Jim]

Why exactly do you think he would need to fake a Town attitude off a single RVS vote?

Newer scum players sometimes have issues immersing themselves in a game. Given that RVS is predominately injokes and sarcasm, that's often viewed as the best way to get into a game. The vote's not the cause for it, the immersion is.

Why exactly do you think he would need to fake a Town attitude off a single RVS vote?

There's never a flat out need to, but it would be a good way for someone to ease their way into the game. There's a reason RVS is predominately injokes and sarcasm.

You are forgiven. But in all seriousness – for a large swath of scum appeasement style posts I find to generally be a good tell to go with. You in this post also mention several instances of appeasement posting (ex: Ollie’s vote on Creeper after Bella interaction). I find these type of “get mentioned and come running” posts to be a variant on appeasement posting.

Now there are several strata of player-types that doesn’t work for. Mainly the super-boastful and the well seasoned vets. Luckily we don’t have the worst style of offender in this game for the former and I purposefully didn’t bother even trying that sort of poking and prodding on the later in this game.

I did notice a bit of my own hypocrisy after the fact. I just had some issues relating it to calling out lurkers, as I know that of the three you called out, I can vouch for one being town. That type of tell just never really jumped out at me as effective, as I know that I am victim of reading along with nothing to say, and when I see myself called out I post as a "hey I'm here" or even have that awkward timing. There's too many factors at play to make a good call, however if it becomes a pattern I would definitely put some more weight into that stance.

Does that make sense?

Yes, thank you.

[ChurchOfMercy]

DAY 1 READS
Acryon - Wants to lynch Kain but not really, sees himself as low-hanging fruit that never gets lynched D1, complains that he's being read so early in the game, yet reads others... Scum

Some serious false equivalency here.

Jim/(KainTepes) - Lurker/replace-out, no-content trollposter, Very interesting how much resistance there is to his wagon. Scum.

Maybe because there is no content to analyze? Is trollposting alignment-indicative? (Hint: it's not) Also, what made you think Imperium was scum initially? Because you moved pretty quickly from scum to simply based on meta it would appear.

Words

What a shock that you show up with a reads list nearly identical to what everyone else is already saying. Have anything original to add?

Lack of engagement isn't scummy.

Hold on a second...

Kain, on the other hand, has been pretty active elsewhere on the site today.

VOTE: KainTepesVOTE:

Why is potentially being more interested in other ongoing games not as good of an excuse as being more interested in dating sites?

Because both of our heads posted here and Kain didn't.

Both our heads posted in other games as well.

I even posted on 2 other sites.

Apples and oranges.

Klingoncelt

So not being engaged isn't scummy as long as you've posted at least a couple times, even if the posts were essentially nothing. Funny how you draw the line in the perfect place for it to work in your favor.

Consider this an intent to put COM to L-1. Not going to actually do it since I've been dealing with a lot of quickhammers recently.

If you're going to fake scumhunt, at least try to be convincing.

[ChurchOfMercy]

I kind of feel like I... solved this game? CoM, bella, and KT. And CoM's "agreement" on bella doesn't do much for me, just looks like bussing.

Except we're Town.

[ChurchOfMercy]

We're actually scum. You've been right this entire time. We did what we could for the slot and you still caught us like a boss. You guys are really good players. I will be nomming for best town.

Klingon and I are very impressed by how effective this town's collective scumhunting ability is.

Well done.

I look forward to playing with you all again, hopefully on the same side.

Albert

It's just so hard to lie to you. How can we lie to your faces, we love you too much. No, we can't lie. We must be honest with you. You are terrific players. You are so close to solving the game.

If you keep us alive, we will periodically drop hints about who are partners are to reward you for being such incredible scumhunters.

Albert

That cutting commentary, though! It's like you have a window into my soul. I hope to never draw scum against you again, acryon.

Albert

It is incredibly telling! Yes. You are so right, I don't know what's left anymore.

Albert

I'm just so happy in my life, I care little about this game and I rather be lynched. Klingon, sorry! We did our best but they caught us.

Albert

!

Scum building our wagon and dull, gullible Town joining in thinking they're smart.

Hey, Albert, how much you wanna bet that Town loses this one?

Kling

[ChurchOfMercy]

Your reaction being to vote someone who has not even showed up. The second, is that when you voted this slot you ignored the other slot that had yet to post altogether. The third, is that there has been no push whatsoever on me, yet you are stating there was some resistance to it? How can there be resistance to a non-existent push?

It's pretty clear you have no experience playing with your predecessor KAIN TEPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I, on the other hand, have been in some games with him.

Kling

[ChurchOfMercy]

My big problem with your side of the hydra is mostly how you opened the game; why did you agree with Lowell's case on KTthecreeper?

KT overreacted to the RVS vote. Not a good look.

[ChurchOfMercy]

Could people PLEASE stop using KT as an abbreviation? I understand Kain got replaced but there is still plenty of room for misunderstanding between Creeper and Killthestory IMO. Thanks!

KTthecreeper = KT

Killthestory = Kill

Easy.

Klingoncelt (= Kling)

[ChurchOfMercy]

Null. He’s pretty much non-engaged. I don’t give any ‘dumb Town’ credit for 32-33 but it certainly doesn’t warrant scum-points either. I can see why, if he doesn’t know Lowell from Adam, Lowell’s call of me as Town early would be suspect. 62 is full of logical Town oriented thinking. His line of thinking in 179 and 206 about scum being in best position to call other players Town on little basis is a theory I believe in personally. Hell, if not for the fact that he is very non-engaged (other than going after Lowell and Killthestory) I’d probably be very comfortable with a fairly solid Town read on the slot.

Hey, could you (and everyone else) do the Church a favor?

Up above the Reply box among the options available, click on "post" and stick the post number in there. It makes searching a whole lot easier.

" I don’t give any ‘dumb Town’ credit for 32-33 but it certainly doesn’t warrant scum-points either.
62 is full of logical Town oriented thinking. His line of thinking in 179 and 206 about scum being in best position to call other players Town on little basis is a theory I believe in personally."

See what I mean?
tia,
Kling

[ChurchOfMercy]

Preach it, Kling! I love this hydra.

Albert

[ChurchOfMercy]

What do you know of Klingon? I'd like your thoughts on the whole "Kain is scum for not showing up but low engagement is not a scum-tell" thing. Because that causes my alarm klaxons to go ringing big-time. Am I overthinking?

Here, let me help you with that:

Low-volume means volume, just not a lot of it. Some players actually make just one or two short posts per day on this site. The posts generally contain some content.

This is opposed to a flake, someone that completely ignores the game.

How can you not see that the flake is clearly scummier than the low-volume?

[ChurchOfMercy]

Preach it, Kling! I love this hydra.

Albert

Me too!

klingon