Mini 1774: Formation of America's Mafiascum - Perfect Town W

[Ranger]

Yep.

I'm busy in like five different places all at once, so it might take me some time.

I also don't have the greatest grasp on the mechanics this game, so that will also take me a little while to nail down.

[Ranger]

Encountering some minor access issues again right now, so may have to wait to get caught up. Will keep you informed.

[Ranger]

Really? We had ranger replace into this? Ugh. Now I just want to replace out.

What did I do?

I mean, our last game together, I was scum. I may have treated you badly in the game thread while the game was ongoing, but that's because I was

scum

, and doing so was my wincon. I did nothing but praise you in the mafia PT, and in postgame had nothing but good things to say about you. You were right on your scumread there. You were obviously town, not needing the draft pick order to clear you. I consider you a good player. You displayed no such hostility to me prior to that game. :S

(Pretty sure Firebringer's town, though.)

@Ranger, when you see this can you tell me what protest, if any, Beeboy voted for last night?

Nope! I'm pretty sure that my role PM was the only thing the mods sent to me when I replaced in, not any actions done with it. I didn't even know there

was

that type of mechanic when replacing in. (I knew there was some mechanic, sure, but I didn't read the specifics behind it.) I'll ask in a bit.

[Ranger]

Quick note, btw: I don't have familiarity with any of the players I've seen posting so far save Firebringer, but I need to review Suikoden. I know it's a sample size of one, but the Suzune posts I've seen so far feel

different

compared to that game and that has me rather alarmed.

[Ranger]

Btw, asked the mod about beeboy's actions.

I'm thinking I'll kill two birds with one stone: answer when they get back to me, and begin reading the thread.

[Ranger]

but pushing easy null pushes Peri is incredibly scummy so either make a case as to why Kling is scum that isn't just 'Kling pings me a little' which totally worked well with Shiro or sheep me on Bboy to actually kill scum.

Question.

Am I wrong in assuming beeboy was an easy null push? Because my impression of beeboy, both from this game in second-hand accounts and from his gameplay in general across the board, is that he is almost always an easy null push.

So, do correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this hypocritical?

For the record: I don't like Persivul's white knight of my slot, nor the sudden turnaround on it. This behavior matches his scum game and not his town game.

I don't want to go into it this game, but its your attitude after Fire and Ice, and previous games in the Blitz queue.

Fair enough. But for what it's worth: I hold you to a high standard of play. You're a

good

player. I haven't thought of it this way before consciously, but I think one of the main reasons I've been harsh on your play before is

because

you're a good player, which means whenever you have a failing, it sticks out all the more obviously as being such.

[Ranger]

Oh, and the mods still haven't gotten back to me yet (don't think either has logged on since last night), but I'm still catching up today regardless.

Right now, from the posting that I've seen since my entrance: Firebringer is very probably town.
Alchemist21 looks town to me, but I don't know his play at all (I think this is our first game together), so I wouldn't know what he's capable of as scum.
Neither Nosferatu nor Dierfire have been particularly alarming, but they also haven't particularly stuck out as being town.
Suzune is alarming me: her posts superficially look town, but they

feel

different from her town play as I remember it. That's sent off alarm bells.

itlepip's hypocrisy and Persivul interaction is also questionable, but Persivul is strongly tripping my scumdar.

So,
{Firebringer}
{Alchemist21}
{Nosferatu, Dierfire}
{Suzune}
{itlepip, Persivul}
Is where I'm at approximately.

I realize Klingoncelt and Killthestory were left out, but that's mainly because I had forgotten about their posting, whereas I hadn't forgotten about Dierfire and Nosferatu.

For the record: 1074 does seem to fit my first theory. Suzune, if scum, probably wouldn't bus. But a scumbuddy in the null makes sense, especially itlepip with that explanation. Suzune, if scum, probably would also put a scumbuddy in the top tier. It's not Firebringer, so that leaves {Alchemist21, Persivul}. But, obviously, this is only valid if Suzune is, as I suspect, scum.

[Ranger]

Oh.

Right.

Two scum left, not three.

That changes things. Hold please. Need to read.

[Ranger]

Huh, miscounted, didn't know BBMolla was in this game.

Well, add him to the Klingoncelt/Killthestory tier for the moment. Still starting my read.

[Ranger]

{Firebringer}
{Alchemist21, Killthestory}
{Nosferatu, Dierfire, Klingoncelt}
{BBMolla}
{Suzune}
{itlepip, Persivul}

One.

[Ranger]

{Firebringer}
{Alchemist21, Killthestory, Nosferatu}
{Dierfire, Klingoncelt}
{BBMolla}
{Suzune}
{itlepip}
{Persivul}

Three.

VOTE: Persivul.

[Ranger]

{Firebringer, Nosferatu}
{Alchemist21, Killthestory}
{Dierfire, Klingoncelt}
{BBMolla}
{Suzune}
{itlepip}
{Persivul}

Four.

[Ranger]

What games are you referring to?

Every scum game of yours where I was town.

For a start? This behavior matches Open 612 to a T. (Or more accurately, to an S. :P) That's by far not the only game, but I'd need to find the others, don't have which games you were scum in memorized except that and Blitz 1. (But there, I was your scumbuddy.)

[Ranger]

{Firebringer, Nosferatu}
{Alchemist21, Killthestory}
{Dierfire}
{Klingoncelt}
{BBMolla}
{Suzune}
{itlepip}
{Persivul}

Five.

[Ranger]

{Firebringer, Nosferatu}
{Alchemist21, Killthestory}
{Dierfire}
{Klingoncelt, BBMolla}
{Suzune}
{itlepip}
{Persivul}

Six.

[Ranger]

Who did I WK and then turn around and condemn in the next post in Open 612?

It wasn't the very next post, but...ironically enough?

Me.

You White Knighted me. You then turned around to scumreading me.

[Ranger]

I actually do buy 1111 for what it's worth.

[Ranger]

{Firebringer, Nosferatu, Killthestory}
{Alchemist21}
{Dierfire}
{Suzune}
{Klingoncelt, BBMolla}
{itlepip}
{Persivul}

Seven.

[Ranger]

Are these page numbers that you've read through? Cause I didn't post until page 3...

Yes, but they are not based 100% solely on those pages. They also take into account current posting. They're

mostly

the early pages (for instance, Suzune looked more town on her own merits there), but I'm not ignoring the latest content when making them (using that same example, buying Suzune's 1111).

When I replace into a game, two things are expected of me:

1. Reading the thread and getting caught up on the current gamestate,
2. And staying up to date on the current happenings of the game.

So when I'm first listing, I'll read the content since my replace-in announcement (maybe a few posts before, circumstances depending), keep up to date on more recent posts, and then start reading through the thread. I continue this process until caught up, becoming aware of new posts as I post content and reading new material concurrently to old.

[Ranger]

He isn't null. In my mind, which I've fully laid out the reasoning for, I am fairly certain that your slot is scum.

My question is more what makes beeboy different from the others. What makes beeboy a hard push? Because from what I picked up in this thread, it sounded like he was an easy push. This also fits with my experience with beeboy as a player. Town or scum, he is an easy push. So what makes him not an easy push?

What makes beeboy not a null slot? Same as above: general consensus seemed to have beeboy as null. This fits my impression of where beeboy typically is as both alignments. The point I'm making isn't that beeboy is town. I already know that by virtue of having inherited his role. The point I'm making is that you have no explanation separating why Klingoncelt is different from beeboy, why Klingoncelt is an easy null push, whereas beeboy isn't.

And you still don't, because the entirety of your response is, "because I said so". Which is why I asked in the first place. If you had made a case on beeboy, how hard would it have been to have just quoted it in front of me? To show me why beeboy is supposed to be scum, to show me why beeboy isn't an easy push, whereas Klingoncelt is?

What posts?

1051 does not come from scum. Period. End of discussion, it is not a scum post, ever. Let's humor you and say scum would potentially post something like that as a one-off for town credit, and then never follow through on it. Well, then, 1055 shows he's absolutely serious. That's not faked. Especially not given that I understood some of the sentiment behind it. I didn't quite get why he was so drastically opposed to me, but I had at least some clue, so I know he was not posting that for manipulation. He also would not think like that as scum. The only case for him thinking that way is if he's town, because I've only berated him as town. As town, he has reason to not want to go through that again. So he has reason to not want it again. 1097 gave exactly the right answer, too. He thinks I'm town, makes sense if my scum game wasn't the issue which it apparently wasn't. He gave the general idea of why. It's simply town.

Plus, reading through the early game phase: I have seen Firebringer troll as town before. He comes from a site where trolling in the RVS is the norm. This matches his town trolling perfectly. I'd have to double-check some past games to see what his scum trolling is like, but I'm fairly certain his scum trolling is inherently different from his town trolling, and his town trolling was...well,

town

.

Same as above.

I liked 1057. 1084 also looked town to me. 1085/1086 also gave me town vibes, but as I said: I don't know Alchemist21. They look town, but I don't know what he's like when scum, thus, why he's not a stronger townread.

Can you give concrete meta here?

Iso Suzune in Suikoden. (The link can be found near the top of my Game History, it was one of my first games on here.)

Kill has been a huge influence on this game, how in the hell did you forget about that slot?

Oh, you know...because I'm a

replacement

who

hasn't read the game

, especially not as of that point.

Also how have I improved in your readlist when I didn't join the game until day 2 and you are on page 7?

That wasn't you going up.

That was Persivul going

down

.

[Ranger]

So, you haven't seen this behavior in me as scum before. You've seen my reads change over time and pages as scum.

No. It's the exact same behavior, just compacted into a shorter timeframe. Looking at my post, I can understand how it can be interpreted as me saying the sudden turnaround was a problem by virtue of being sudden, but that was not what I meant to say. I meant the sudden turnaround itself was the problem, yes, but not by virtue of being sudden (the word 'sudden' was a descriptor OF the turnaround, not part of the noun), by virtue of

how

the turnaround came about.

The WAY you turned around on my slot here is literally identical to your scum play, and how you've turned around on players (like me) before. The way your reads changed here is practically deja vu to the way your reads changed in Open 612. Timeframe is irrelevant.

Seems a little like OMGUS...

Dare you to, so much as once, find me OMGUS someone as scum.

DARE you.

I'll wait. I have ten scum games. Find one where I attack a player after they have attacked me, rather than vice-versa. (I always attack

first

as scum. Always. And can show it in post numbers, 100% of the time.) It shouldn't be that hard, should it? Ten games isn't much to search through, and they're all listed clearly on my game history.

I don't OMGUS as scum. People

accuse

me of OMGUSing, sure, but it never is. You'd be scum if it were a turnaround on any other slot, too. It just so happened to be a turnaround on my slot.

P-edit, um Peri, why are you so worried.

He's worried because he knows he's playing his scum game and that I can point out

why

he's playing his scum game. That's why his first post upon realizing I was beeboy was, quite literally, "oh, snap, Ranger's in the slot I was about to try and mislynch".

[Ranger]

I'm worried all the time.

This is absolute BS, by the way.

Persivul is

never

worried as town.

There's also how he's responding twice to the same post.

[Ranger]

Off of recent content,
{Firebringer, Nosferatu, Killthestory, Suzune}
{Alchemist21, Dierfire}
{Klingoncelt, BBMolla}
{itlepip}
{Persivul}

Reread page count hasn't changed because you've been posting too much for me to read.

[Ranger]

{Firebringer, Nosferatu, Killthestory, Suzune}
{Alchemist21, Dierfire}
{BBMolla}
{Klingoncelt}
{itlepip}
{Persivul}

Eight.

[Ranger]

Through 11.

{Firebringer, Nosferatu, Killthestory, Suzune}

I'm just going to reemphasize. My readslist hasn't changed. But I feel the need, right now, to comment on these names. They're all, 100%, town. I'm never lynching any of them, ever. They've all earned their spots for different reasons. (If necessary, I'll explain, but only after I'm fully caught up.) Basically, I'm firmly of the opinion that if we lynch outside these names, we can, 100%, win the game. With 10 alive, and two scum left, worst case scenario, there's still two of them alive come 6p mylo. If the game reaches that point, at least one lives to see 4p mylo. (

Absolutely no no-lynching!

They're town, they'll just die, and you'll be in the same situation, just without the voice of the conftown helping.)

We can basically win the game if we trust this.

It's also worth mentioning:

{Alchemist21, Dierfire}
{BBMolla}
{Klingoncelt}

These? These are all townreads. The only way I could see us losing this game is if I'm wrong on one of Alchemist21 or Dierfire. (Basically: mislynch me. Lynch itlepip and Persivul. If the game's not over, then I was wrong on one of my scumreads and at least one townread. Klingoncelt's the weakest townread, so lynch her. If the game's still not over and one scum lives, you've got a mylo of {one conftown player, Alchemist21, Dierfire, BBMolla}, in which I'd currently lynch BBMolla. We've got a

lot

of lynches right now, so being wrong there is the only way we could lose.)

I'm still reading the game. I'll let you know what changes as I read. By the time I'm done, hopefully I can add at least one if not two names to the top tier, turning an almost certain win into a guaranteed win. But this is already a solid start.

[Ranger]

That's one scummy freakin' post.

This looks like scum, who knows that SirCakez is flipping scum, and prematurely painting Firebringer as scum for a fence-sit.

Speaking of reads on SirCakez: Alchemist21's read is really good, but I don't know how he treats scumbuddies when scum. I've got a similar issue from Dierfire, but I'm just about ready to move Dierfire up a tier, because 437 was good analysis around the SirCakez wagon, rather than just a reasonless push.

[Ranger]

Ranger ignoring alignments for a second, because ftr Ranger right now is looking at the game through a town perspective, just keep in mind that is reasonably easy for scum to do just on a catchup, wuv woo cause those reads are fucking godlike.

I'll take it as a compliment. <3

[Ranger]

*facepalm*

I just now realized itlepip

is

BBMolla. (It wasn't listed on the front page.)

{Firebringer, Nosferatu, Killthestory, Suzune}
{Alchemist21, Dierfire}
{itlepip, Klingoncelt}
{Persivul}

This is what I'm working from right now.

I need to work out which of {itlepip, Klingoncelt} is scum. I think one is, and the other isn't, but now I'm not as sure. I'm almost ready to promote Dierfire, and Alchemist remains a strong townread.

[Ranger]

Off of page 20, I

would

guess Molla's the town (it also helps that he was early on the Window wagon, whereas Klingoncelt voted when SirCakez already had a lot of votes and was helping strengthen the Window wagon), and itlepip's recent posting

does

remind me of our first game together where I scumread him and he was town (I think, anyway? Need to check which game it actually was), but it's not absolutely solid.

[Ranger]

489 and 491 are both bad posts from Persivul for the record.

[Ranger]

511 was a scum hammer, too.

[Ranger]

540 was a scum bandwagon vote as well, and, frankly, I'm surprised people didn't call out Persivul for making the same sort of vote that ended up getting SirCakez lynched.

[Ranger]

(A mental note to self is that I need to review Klingoncelt's play in Suikoden. This might be the same thing that happened there, her not looking like scum to me but her being the last scum anyway.)

[Ranger]

556 was also a scum-Persivul knowing why Window was taken out.

[Ranger]

(And before you ask, "But if he saw that, why would he point that out as scum?" The answer is: experience tells me he would.)

[Ranger]

Did I post the readslist?
{Firebringer, Nosferatu, Killthestory, Suzune, Dierfire}
{Alchemist21}
{itlepip}
{Klingoncelt}
{Persivul}

Because this is where I'm at, as of 23.

[Ranger]

The rolefishing in 587 was horrendous, too.

[Ranger]

Interestingly, this is only a defense against the scum charge if you admit that you actually did OMGUS me in this game.

I have no qualms with admitting to OMGUSing when town.

It is, after all, an objective fact.

You stated suspicion on my slot prior to me stating suspicion on your slot.
Your stated suspicion on my slot (rather, the turnaround present there) was the first contributing factor to my suspicion on your slot. It is, by

far

, not the only thing and suggesting it is would be a strawman, but it was in fact the second thing to stick out. (The first being the white knighting.) So, by the definition of OMGUS, it was in fact OMGUS.

Doesn't make the read any less valid, though!

[Ranger]

For the record, at this stage, I'm pretty confident in my reads and think we've got this game absolutely won.
We can chain lynches here.
Mislynch me? Power through Persivul, Klingoncelt, and itlepip in that order.
Let me live? Lynch Persivul first, then Klingoncelt.
If the game's not over, then lynch either itlepip or myself (whichever order you prefer, doesn't matter), then lynch the other.

As long as nobody outside of us four is mislynched, we've got the game won.

[Ranger]

633 was a bad defense, but it's absolutely nothing compared to 638. THAT post, my friends, is why both I and Suzune are town. Klingoncelt wanted to encourage the 1v1 between beeboy and Suzune, since them mutually realizing the other was town and townblocking was something scum could not afford.

[Ranger]

Why is this a scumhammer?

Because it was painfully obvious that SirCakez was going down that day, and he was hoping to earn some town credit for being the hammer vote.

I have seen this behavior from Persivul before. Namely, post 1192 here.

[Ranger]

654/657 continue the extremely anti-town rolefishing as well.

This, again, is behavior common to Persivul's scum game which is rare to find in his town game.

[Ranger]

I actually enjoy having Ranger do this because i think the game needed the new eyes.

<3

Now all you need to do is follow my reads. Preferably with me alive, though I

am

willing to die first conditional on you not deviating from my lynch order. (Persivul->Klingoncelt, and if the game's not over->itlepip.)

[Ranger]

Well, as of 712, I might be willing to have Klingoncelt first, but it's still really close.

All the conftown are conftown.
Alchemist21 is strongly town.
itlepip is somewhat-town. He's only included because if it's

not

{Klingoncelt, Persivul}, he's the only name I could see as even potentially scum.

[Ranger]

787 is really on point in regards to Klingoncelt.

[Ranger]

Is Dierfire one of your confTown, and if so why?

Admittedly, Dierfire gets weaker on D2, but so do you. His D1 play was really solid, and I very strongly do not think Dierfire was bussing. Unlike, say, Persivul's throwaway vote, Dierfire had strong reasons behind the push, and was very strongly pointing out a lot of things around the wagon as well. I forget what point exactly pushed Dierfire into that tier, but yes, Dierfire is a top-tier townread now.

[Ranger]

Correction, it was 786 which was the on-point post.

[Ranger]

790 is also accurate.

[Ranger]

807 was scum-scum interactions too, especially given Persivul voted Klingoncelt before Firebringer. (Speaking of: the Klingoncelt vote reads as distancing, as he never continues the push; it's a throwaway vote whenever he makes it, similar to how SirCakez's Persivul vote was a throwaway vote that was quickly retracted.)

[Ranger]

(In that I endorse it and at the same time don't townread Ranger for it).

Then you won't mind lynching Persivul and Klingoncelt first!

[Ranger]

Alchemist21 - Paying attention, calling out stuff as he sees it.
Beeboy - His thought processes are similar to mine.
Persivul - His scumgame is horrible. He's not playing baly, therefore he's nearly confirmed Town.
Nosferatu - Tunnel on SirCakes was good.

One of these is not like the others~

[Ranger]

But, really, 856 is an accurate summary of her readslist in general. None of the reads below the town line are good (the scumreads are particularly egregious), and the Persivul townread is absolutely horrid.

[Ranger]

857 was a valid point as well.

[Ranger]

865 was scum defending Klingoncelt.

This game is

nothing

like Open 612, the aforementioned game he was talking about. I'd know, given I was there.

[Ranger]

870 was voting Shiro over Klingoncelt, the two options on the table at the time.

Again, this fits with Persivul's scum meta: he'll distance plenty with his scumbuddies, but push come to shove, he'll only lynch them if it's obvious they're going down, and if he

can

save them, he'll try to.

[Ranger]

Klingoncelt (3) killthestory, Shiro, Suzune
Shiro(4), Dierfire Alchemist21, beeboy, Persivul

This tells the whole story, really.

Klingoncelt was being wagoned.

Persivul tipped the vote majority onto Shiro.

[Ranger]

972 among others show that Persivul was actively trying to lynch Shiro over Klingoncelt, forcing someone who had a null read on Klingoncelt to vote Shiro instead of Klingoncelt.

[Ranger]

981 basically is my thoughts on every player in the game.

[Ranger]

992 was also a solid post on Klingoncelt.

Might I add, it also applies to her Persivul read.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Klingoncelt.

As of 41.

[Ranger]

I'd like to reiterate.

Persivul, as scum.
Will distance. Ergo, 1092.

He will then back out. Ergo, starting in 1096, and then following through in 1109.

And try to keep his scumbuddy alive.

[Ranger]

1123 is all solid analysis and I agree with everything there now that I have read the whole game. (Well, except obviously liking the beeboy case, but that was a given.)

[Ranger]

I am waiting until you reach a point I want to talk about, then you can tell me if you still think that is a good lynch order.

Whatever that point was, I've reached it.

My reads haven't changed. It honestly doesn't matter which of {Klingoncelt, Persivul} we lynch first; both are scum. So, more or less, my order remains unchanged, although I'm currently voting Klingoncelt because the wagon there is larger.

[Ranger]

I'm struggling on this here Ranger. Do you think it was an assumption of my role, having assuming information. Since I did not claim inventor therefore, I am wondering where this leap came from.

Honestly, I was sort-of assuming you

were

an inventor, so I can totally see itlepip coming to that conclusion. I don't see it as alignment-indicative one way or another.

[Ranger]

Umm... that's a BBMolla post?

Yes, but it's a BBMolla post about you.

[Ranger]

Kling, you are looking very desperate here. Just like yesterday.
It might just be Kling and Persivul.

It is.

scum!Ranger would want to discredit me, but she wouldn't want to lynch me. Rather, she would NK me and claim that scum were framing her if pressured on it.

Yeah this has absolutely zero basis in fact at all; Persivul is literally making stuff up.

Town!Ranger would push me here. There's over 11 days left in phase, there's only two votes on kling, and she's been wagoned before. It makes no sense for town to come in, make as many posts on me as you did, but then just drop the push before it has time to take off.

I have made my stance crystal clear.

I will vote whichever of you two has more votes.

That is currently Klingoncelt.

I will switch back if it becomes you.

BTW, you should check your own slot's D1 play. On the WA wagon most of the day, called one cakez post bad and jumped on the wagon. Is that jumping wagons based on how the game is progressing?

Oh, the irony.

So remember that behavior I just said was a BS accusation?

scum!Ranger would want to discredit me, but she wouldn't want to lynch me. Rather, she would NK me and claim that scum were framing her if pressured on it.

Guess what he's doing to itlepip?

[Ranger]

<3 itlepip.

Seems we have consensus on what to vote for.

[Ranger]

if I get NKed remember my town circle of nos, suz, fire, kill

Trust me.

I'm a potential mislynch.

And as long as I live.

I'm not letting any of those names get lynched, either.

[Ranger]

Anyone else get that feel the mods for this game really don't care lol?

I wouldn't make that accusation.

But.

They certainly have been inactive to say the least.

Given I asked my question two days ago and have yet to get an answer.

[Ranger]

Sorry, Persivul.

itlepip did an excellent job of making himself look town. In particular, his hammer after having previously defended Klingoncelt and Klingoncelt claimed VT screamed, "I am a role who knows Klingoncelt is

not

a vanilla townie"; I thought that was a brilliant move on his part.

I was actually convinced that coming into the next day, I was going to be mislynched.

[Ranger]

Maybe a sequel for this game could be the Civil War of Mafiascum? I'm sure there'd be lots of flavor you could use there.