Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Imperium]

Though I do find the robotic sort of playstyles jarring until I get used to the person and can gauge where they're coming from and what they look at. I'm more logic/emotion-intuition based, and which parts come to the forefront depend on my actual mood.

I wouldn't say I'm robotic. I can read the gut/emotion type players just fine although I don't develop those sort of reads myself. I tend to be stoic myself and play a logic-based game.

That's what I mean by robotic. Not that you can't read emotional players but that you don't express much emotion in your questions/pushes/reads yourself. Me reading you being maybe frustrated or paranoid in the way that you started to scum read magna and us is what made me come around to thinking you were almost definitely town.

[Xisiqomelir]

I want everyone to note that Church is acting like everyone voting her is scum.

Klingon, confirm/deny?

That's a stupid question. There are only 1 or 2 Scums left. But they are definitely on my wagon.

^^Ignore this post, I had the wrong notes opened up.

It should read "Fuck yeah the Scums are all on my wagon!!!"

I don't like either answer, tbh. So zero scum off-wagon means you have great confidence in Jim and Nosferatu for town?

[Xisiqomelir]

Emotional vs Objective is an interesting Mafia Theory topic. I see different sorts of personalities preferring each style of analysis, but I myself much prefer observing congruity between stances and actions as a technique for reading the game.

[Imperium]

Ollie -

A few questions about your 831:

1. Can you point out what bullshit reasons ChurchOfMercy is being voted for?

I said that voting for them because... they're likely to be VT if town, because we'd get alot of info or because they'd be annoying to sort would be BS reasons to vote for them. These were things I was considering when deciding which side I landed on Snarky/Church. I think you misinterpreted what I said there?

Nacho did too! But I explained to him what you meant and then it made sense to him.

3. What do you actually think of ChurchOfMercy? Your entire read these seem designed around who else is voting who rather than the player themselves.

I don't have a scum read horse in this race so the decision came down to who I could get a scummier read on. Someone I'm finding hard to read; Church, or someone I was giving a pass to; Snarky. So I ISOed them to sort. Now pretty much most of Church's posts have been scummy for the last week or so due to the troll-y tone but that could be explained by them being the clear lynch for today since around that time. & before that they were a null read for me. They're a bit all over the place but so was I when I was in a hydra (never again) under alot of pressure. I can find excuses for them. Snarky isn't quite a scum read for me atm but is heading that way mainly because of the read list, voting Severa just for not doing much isn't great either, there wasn't much behind that at that point IMO. Better than voting for Church's great big question mark. Who is on which wagon definitely makes me feel better about my vote but that's not the meat in the sandwich.[/quote]

Did you read the posts I made about ABR and Klingon and at least posted links to Klingon's town games and her reactions to being scum read. Do you want to know why her reactions are all wrong?

So, let's start with me because I'm really self-absorbed, it's late, I'm tired and have been grading all day. So, early one one head declares a gut scum read on us. The other, noisy one, declares us town. Do you know where the noisy one changed her town read to a scum read on us? We've only gotten townier throughout the day, so apparently it got to last night when she was creating lots of wifomy noise.

Anyway, her reactions are all wrong because she keeps pointing out how all of us who are voting for her are going to look so bad tomorrow and have a bunch of explaining to do. Now, I don't know about you but I'm pretty damn sure that the majority of us voting for that slot have been pretty damn clear on why we're voting for her. We won't have any explaining to do because we've done it.

This is not the reaction of town being mislynched. Town when almost mislynched in her position does not make the "you're going to look so bad...you've to to clear your name...you'll have explaining to do." Oh sure town get frustrated when being mislynched but they say things like "you're going to feel so stupid...can't wait to see how you react to the egg on your face tomorrow...I'm gonna laugh so hard when you're wrong...you're going to look so dumb." That's how town frustrated at being mislynched react. Not what klingon is doing. And acryon is right, if in some alternate universe they are town, I'm more going to be annoyed at their play because they did absolutely nothing to look town.

Then there's this gem:

If I'm wrong on church, I'll be doing one hell of a reassessment party tomorrow.

Starting with trying your best to clear your own name...

I hope you get NKed.

This is after declaring that we are not obviously town (after calling us town earlier? Then saying we're nothing but noise and passionate and are Snarky's buddy.)

Here she's saying that we're going to have to clear our own name, implying we are scum on her mislynch.

If we are scum how in the hell can we be NKed?

This makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Imperium]

The only way that makes sense is if she's calling us town and saying she hopes we get night killed because she's a mislynch that we're pushing through and she thinks we will ruin the game. But that's not what any of her other posting suggests. She trying to call us scum on her mislynch, and therefore the nightkill reference makes no sense.

That's internal inconsistency. If I'm thinking straight that it it's fucking late.

[OceanWind]

I said that voting for them because... they're likely to be VT if town, because we'd get alot of info or because they'd be annoying to sort would be BS reasons to vote for them. These were things I was considering when deciding which side I landed on Snarky/Church. I think you misinterpreted what I said there?

Who provided those reasons? Mind quoting or linking them?

Now pretty much most of Church's posts have been scummy for the last week or so due to the troll-y tone but that could be explained by them being the clear lynch for today since around that time.

Why does someone being the clear lynch of the day excuse them from suspicion for "scummy posts?"

---

Lowell, why are you voting us? Your performance in the last game where you were in a hydra, you can surely relate to not being committed to or invested in a game. I don't understand why you are so convinced that we're the best lynch.

One game I read of yours was one where Lowell was in it. He was townreading you hard for overposting (over four hundred posts a day). So, him scumreading you here for underposting doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

---

That's what I mean by robotic. Not that you can't read emotional players but that you don't express much emotion in your questions/pushes/reads yourself. Me reading you being maybe frustrated or paranoid in the way that you started to scum read magna and us is what made me come around to thinking you were almost definitely town.

I'd say I'm more logic-based than robotic but okay. I wasn't frustrated or paranoid about anything. I don't scumread people I'm frustrated with. Mostly, I just yell at them.

[ChurchOfMercy]

One game I read of yours was one where Lowell was in it. He was townreading you hard for overposting (over four hundred posts a day). So, him scumreading you here for underposting doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

It's completely unreasonable. He has games where he doesn't care. I have games where I don't care. Town or scum.

[ChurchOfMercy]

The idea that I would emotionally invest myself in 100% of my town games is ridiculous.

[OceanWind]

That's what I mean by robotic. Not that you can't read emotional players but that you don't express much emotion in your questions/pushes/reads yourself. Me reading you being maybe frustrated or paranoid in the way that you started to scum read magna and us is what made me come around to thinking you were almost definitely town.

I'd say I'm more logic-based than robotic but okay. I wasn't frustrated or paranoid about anything. I don't scumread people I'm frustrated with. Mostly, I just yell at them.

To expand on this, I don't irrationally scumread players that suspect me or disagree with me. I've explained my suspicion of you which was largely softened since then.

My suspicion of MagnaOfIllusion stems from his lack of deeper thought with regard to the ChurchOfMercy lynch. His posts follow a consistent pattern of accusing anyone who deviates from his preferred lynch of being mafia. He doesn't take into account that mafia can and do bus, that they can and do distance from each other and so on. The wealth of possible interactions that mafia could have are vast and it is never simply about whoever pushes the counter-wagon. MagnaOfIllusion strikes me as a discerning enough player to realize that, yet his "interactive tells" are far too simple.

The mafia motivation for this consistent pattern is something I could see regardless of ChurchOfMercy's alignment. If they are town, the constant attacking of anyone deviating from that push would be the ammo through which he could make the mislynch possible. It might fool weaker-willed players into folding as they grow to fear the prospect of facing MagnaOfIllusion the following day. Machina mafia was full of such players and the mafia member used the browbeating to great effect and was my biggest take-away from that game.

The second option obviously is that he'd get a ton of towncred if he was bussing ChurchOfMercy so setting up the next mislynches down the line makes sense. If he had a more nuanced view like Nachomamma8 did for instance, I wouldn't have been suspicious. Associatives before flips is something I do as well. But showing up when he did and accusing me of being mafia looked ingenuine for all those reasons. Nachomamma8 was right in that looking terrible is

exactly

why I wouldn't have hopped off the ChurchOfMercy wagon if I were mafia with them. I'd wait and see who else was taking the bait, maybe push harder to see who else I can set up to lynch the next day. He also accuses Severa without considering the larger context of Severa's posts. Unless I find out Severa is an alt of LLD or something, that's a townread I don't doubt.

But I'll likely get more insight into MagnaOfIllusion's alignment once he specifies what posts he finds scummy in more detail.

[Ollie]

Imperium

yeah thinking that people who voted for you are gonna be in trouble if you flip town is a very newbie thing to say, so something seems off about that. Not necessarily true, you gotta vote for somebody.

I said that voting for them because... they're likely to be VT if town, because we'd get alot of info or because they'd be annoying to sort would be BS reasons to vote for them. These were things I was considering when deciding which side I landed on Snarky/Church. I think you misinterpreted what I said there?

Who provided those reasons? Mind quoting or linking them?

Now pretty much most of Church's posts have been scummy for the last week or so due to the troll-y tone but that could be explained by them being the clear lynch for today since around that time.

Why does someone being the clear lynch of the day excuse them from suspicion for "scummy posts?"

I came up with those as reasons & was happy with them for a while but I ultimately dismissed them, as the point of the game is trying to lynch scum.

It doesn't excuse people of suspicion, but if a person thinks they're the lynch for the day they may be more liable to act out or troll. If a person thinks they have a good shot at getting out of it they'd maybe be more serious & focused with getting on of the hole they're in. It just depends. I would make a concerted effort either way but Church aren't so what I would do goes out of the window when reading them. This may be partially why I'm having trouble with reading either way. I am seeing them in a scummier light atm though.

[Imperium]

Severa is not an alt of LLD but is an alt of a good scum player with a good scum reputation.

Magna does have a tendency to view people who are looking at the game the same way as him as town and think those who disagree* as scum.

*I don't think this is blanket. I think in some ways it's in part that when he thinks that something is exceedingly obvious, i.e. Church is scum, that he can't accept that anyone else would see it any other way. For instance in Kingdom Hearts, moons and moons ago, he had me as a town read early game. He was reading someone else as scum that I was also reading as scum. That person made a post that I thought made him more likely town and when I said so, Magna thought I was more likely scum for it. We were both town and I was strongly town reading him in that game, correctly, while correctly identifying him as scum in a concurrent game. I point this out because my town read on Magna is not shallow, it's anything but. Can I be wrong, sure. Can I be overlooking stuff because we literally only joined this game because he came back, sure. I don't think I am though. I think I've analyzed it enough to be fairly confident.

I do think that him showing up this morning and suspecting you and anyone else is more in line with how he would perceive it as town than how he would react as scum. I'll try to explain this more later definitely tomorrow if we're all awake. If we're not here, please listen to what we said on Bella and read that Bees game I mentioned. Also meta a magna town and scum game. His scum game is good and competent, but I do think there are some pretty clear indicators there that would explain his views.

[ChurchOfMercy]

Making assumptions on the premise that our slot is scum is definitively smart and not a waste of time.

[OceanWind]

Meant to respond to this. I read it and somehow forgot.

So, to me it goes Ac: 'Haha don't vote me, I'm never lynched day 1' (confidence in his play) then 'you jumped on lhf' (not confidence) then 'I am not lhf' (confidence) then 'it doesn't matter anyway' and then he uses lfh to suggest moi 'demonised' him for his content. Why doesn't this look like a contradictory attitude to you?

I've explained it several times by now. Acryon said that he could be perceived as low-hanging fruit even though he's not actually low hanging fruit. It doesn't matter what he actually is. Whether or not people attack him is based on whether

they

think he's low hanging fruit, not on whether

he

thinks he's low hanging fruit. I'm perplexed as to why this isn't clear to so many people.

But moving on, I'd like to see actual links to this:

Firstly, I can't work out how to link to posts, so I'll give you some edited snippets.
I asked you why because it seems pointless for you to assume I'm lying, but, whatever. Admittedly some of this was in response to pressue, but the whole thing in very tonally different.

Spoiler:

'& you have the audacity to have a go at me for an over reaction! btw you're the one who has quick hammered a townie who'd voted for you (OMGUS, er didn't you accuse me of that?) in this game Whiskers. In contrast I've voted for somebody & you've disagreed with my reasoning. I'd say you're winning when it comes to shitty play. ' 'So what? If we had a vig who was forced to shoot the worst player on day 1 then you'd be dead by now. Shit play is no guarantee of anything. He hasn't given us enough to vote on him yet.' 'IN YOUR FUCKING OPINION. I don't know why you can't have people disagreeing with you about what scum tells are but I don't wanna talk about that any more, too many posts centred around that from you, taking up too much of my attention.' 'Death, so why the fuck are you asking for a modkill if you think it's unlikely? Pointless post then & you could have asked the mod via PM. The slot is also statistically more likely to be town so you're scumming the place up with this mod kill bull shit. Why are you objecting to me saying there should be a replacement so badly?' 'Me getting satisfaction from your death isn't gonna do us any good you clown. 's soon as you've come under significant pressure, you've hopped on the largest wagon. Love it.' 'Well done on outing the doc people! Are town even gonna have any roles left at the rate this game is going? At least I've got my role out there which is more than Victor managed.' 'Yeah save it farside, your constant buddying up to Golden Mole is sickening.' 'Derpa derp is actually quite a fun nickname for you, I'll stick with that, thanks Derpa derp. You gave a list once then lurked the rest of the time. That's like getting a BJ off your girlfriend once a year, just not good enough is it. Well done for unvoting me, do you want a medal? I guess you have to look like you actually care'

I can't place it in context. To post a link, all you have to do is click on the post number at the top of the post, and copy what's in the url bar.

This is what you said about Ollie:

@ocean, I asked for Ollie's scum games (not town!) to see if he was the kind of cheeky player who'd make a joke like that. The answer is 'yes', but they've been a tonne more aggressive in their other games, going after the guy who tunnelled him, being a lot more in your face than he has been here.

If it's true that you have actually done background research and not mentioned it, that's pretty strong indicator of town and was the reason I initially was townreading you. But I wanted to verify to make sure that it's true and every time you responded was to either delay or dodge which made me suspicious that you were making it up.

[OceanWind]

Severa is not an alt of LLD but is an alt of a good scum player with a good scum reputation.

Magna does have a tendency to view people who are looking at the game the same way as him as town and think those who disagree* as scum.

*I don't think this is blanket. I think in some ways it's in part that when he thinks that something is exceedingly obvious, i.e. Church is scum, that he can't accept that anyone else would see it any other way. For instance in Kingdom Hearts, moons and moons ago, he had me as a town read early game. He was reading someone else as scum that I was also reading as scum. That person made a post that I thought made him more likely town and when I said so, Magna thought I was more likely scum for it. We were both town and I was strongly town reading him in that game, correctly, while correctly identifying him as scum in a concurrent game. I point this out because my town read on Magna is not shallow, it's anything but. Can I be wrong, sure. Can I be overlooking stuff because we literally only joined this game because he came back, sure. I don't think I am though. I think I've analyzed it enough to be fairly confident.

I do think that him showing up this morning and suspecting you and anyone else is more in line with how he would perceive it as town than how he would react as scum. I'll try to explain this more later definitely tomorrow if we're all awake. If we're not here, please listen to what we said on Bella and read that Bees game I mentioned. Also meta a magna town and scum game. His scum game is good and competent, but I do think there are some pretty clear indicators there that would explain his views.

I was planning to go through Nachomamma8's responses to me and subsequent posts later on but I'll comment on those reads then. I don't have the time or inclination to read through whole completed games. Normally, I prefer following games in real time to see if I can guess mafia correctly. I'll likely skim over their ISOs at some point if it becomes relevant, but if you think there's any specific posts that would be helpful to look at, feel free to link them for me.

[kelbris]

sorry I did not fix it until now, was out for the evening with my family. Anyway, please welcome Heuristically_Alone to the game, he has replaced Jim.

[heuristically_alone]

Hello everyone. Feel free to call me Alone. I could read 38 pages on the current progress, unless someone wants to give me a quick run down....?

[heuristically_alone]

Not quite yet enough evidence on day one for me to make my own decision, so I will ask fate to decide for me.

VOTE:SnarkySnowman

If it is really you, I will find and destroy you

[heuristically_alone]

One game I read of yours was one where Lowell was in it. He was townreading you hard for overposting (over four hundred posts a day). So, him scumreading you here for underposting doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

The idea that I would emotionally invest myself in 100% of my town games is ridiculous.

I can see the point. It isn't necessarily being more invested in the game, but I bet you can find a direct correlation to a specific player and the number of posts they make differentiating between town and mafia. Certain players probably post more as town than mafia, and other players post more as mafia than town. Which are you? Kepping my eye on you...

[Imperium]

i'd recommending reading the full game; what stands out to another player very likely won't stand out to me and seeing what you decide is important and what you think about it is much more alignment indicative than just seeing your opinion on what other people think is important.

[heuristically_alone]

Based on Imperium's assessment of self-righteous help, at these time I'm thinking he is town. I don't know if a mafia would push to influence to read more closely into people. (Though I can see mafia as trying to help others to side themselves with other town players. Still, at this point i'd say Imperium=town

[OceanWind]

That's really not indicative of alignment. How many games of mafia have you played?

[SnarkySnowman]

Who is severa an alt of?

[Imperium]

Diego1487

[OceanWind]

Nachomamma8 - I've gone through all your posting and there is not a whole lot I disagree with - or at least I see where you are coming from even if I don't agree on the details.

A few things I'd like to see elaborated on:

I thought that both of reasons for Magna being town were pretty spot on; I thought that it wasn't necessarily the strength of his arguments that made in town in the acyron exchange, but how he presented them and so obviously believed in them.

This one's about both MagnaOfIllusion and Bellaphant. I didn't get the feeling that Magna believed in his Acryon push all that much. He wall-warred with him for a couple of pages and then mostly let that read fall by the wayside.

Magna's weakness as town is that he is particularly susceptible to town reading people that agree with him and scum reading people that disagree with them. This is something that my hydra partner and I are aware of based on our experience with him.

This is understandable but still makes the read null at best (unless you are arguing that as mafia, he doesn't do the same thing). You then said this:

I've seen neither of you as doing anything that's significantly scummy to me, and there have been instances in both of your plays (Magna's with Acyron and early interactions with me, you moreso recently than early game) where I feel you've had strong emotional investment in a place that's hard to fake as scum.

and followed up by having MagnaOfIllusion in your strong townreads group. Is it just the fact that MagnaOfIllusion pushed Acryon that you are townreading him (and townreading Bellaphant for pointing it out), or is there more to it?

[kelbris]

vote count 1.14

Bellaphant (0): none
Severa (1): SnarkySnowman

Jim

Heuristically_Alone (0): none

jmo16mla

SnarkySnowman (5) [L-3]: OceanWind, Xisiqomelir, ChurchofMercy, ollie, Heuristically_Alone
MagnaofIllusion (0): none
Imperium (0): none
Killthestory (0): none
ChurchOfMercy (hydra, Klingoncelt and Albert B Rampage) (6) [L-2]: Lowell, Imperium, Bellaphant, MagnaofIllusion, acryon, Severa
Lowell (0): none
Nosferatu (0): none
acryon (0): none
OceanWind (0): none

KTthecreeper

Xisiqomelir (0): none
Ollie (0): none
not voting: Nosferatu
With 14 players alive, it takes 8 votes to lynch.
day 1 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-04-18 19:01:46)