Open 638: Friends and Enemies! (And Enemies!) - GAME OVER!

[KuroiXHF]

Vote Count - Day One - VC#15

killthestory - 1 - karnos
Creature - 0 -
Kop - 0 -
Masquerade- 0 -
Kasumeat - 1 - Kop
Javajoe24 - 4 - Ozymandias, Masquerade, randomidget, BTD6_maker
Ranger - 0 -
karnos - 2 - killthestory, Creature
BTD6_maker - 3 - Kasumeat, Ranger, Javajoe24
Ozymandias - 0 -
randomidget - 0 -
Charloux - 0 -

Not Voting: Charloux

With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch!

"Say hello to my little friend." - Scarface.

(expired on 2016-05-31 11:13:00)

Mod Notes:
- <3
- Karnos has roughly twenty hours to respond to his prod.

[karnos]

Sorry for my absense, my company is moving from one office to another and as part of the IT team I have been heavily involved in moving servers and workstations.

Anyway, I think BTD makes a lot of good points. I fear I might be seen as "buddying" with him, but I don't really care- his logic is sound and it makes sense to me. I fear that some town players are being manipulated by scum acting as masons, and the end result is a very anti-town strategy.

KTS is either a mason or he isn't. His claims about ranger & kop are either true or they are not. Personally, I find it a bit odd that kop and ranger both refuse to vouch for KTS but also refuse to contradict his claim. I have been thinking about this for awhile: if I was a mason with KTS, outed by him, is there any reason why I would hold out from verifying his claim? Ultimately, the answer is a resounding NO. Any scum in the game ALREADY has them at the top of their kill-list (unless they are scum themselves, of course), so it's not like vouching for KTS will put them in any new danger. By refusing to vouch for KTS, I think we have a tacit admittance that he is lying.

That is why I haven't changed my vote, and I will continue to not change it until things change.

[Kasumeat]

KTS/Ranger/Kop scumteam confirmed /sarcasm

[Charloux]

Sorry, but there are 2 teams of 2 scums, so they can't be a trio.

[Charloux]

Nvm... Im just stupid...

[Randomnamechange]

Sorry for my absense, my company is moving from one office to another and as part of the IT team I have been heavily involved in moving servers and workstations.

Anyway, I think BTD makes a lot of good points. I fear I might be seen as "buddying" with him, but I don't really care- his logic is sound and it makes sense to me. I fear that some town players are being manipulated by scum acting as masons, and the end result is a very anti-town strategy.

KTS is either a mason or he isn't. His claims about ranger & kop are either true or they are not. Personally, I find it a bit odd that kop and ranger both refuse to vouch for KTS but also refuse to contradict his claim. I have been thinking about this for awhile: if I was a mason with KTS, outed by him, is there any reason why I would hold out from verifying his claim? Ultimately, the answer is a resounding NO. Any scum in the game ALREADY has them at the top of their kill-list (unless they are scum themselves, of course), so it's not like vouching for KTS will put them in any new danger. By refusing to vouch for KTS, I think we have a tacit admittance that he is lying.

That is why I haven't changed my vote, and I will continue to not change it until things change.

Because if they do confirm they've fucking outed the mason team. This shit really isn't hard to understand.

[karnos]

I'm not implying all 3 of them are scum, although it is possible. KTS could have randomly picked an actual mason, or maybe it wasn't so random, perhaps one of his picks was based on the player in question acting as a mason should act. Or he could have picked a VT. The point I am trying to express is that maybe a townie is falling for the scum strategy that keeping masons "secret" on day 1 is critical.

Sure, in a perfect world it's better to keep masons secret until later, but thanks to KTS outing them we are no longer in a situation where that is an option. Scum are going to kill the most likely masons, so confirmation is *not* going to hurt town at all. Now, anti-confirmation might hurt town, of course, because if the masons are not masons then town is better off with scum killing them, but the danger of going down that road is what if KTS is night-killed, then on day 2 kop & ranger will be treated as defacto masons when they could well be scum. The real masons could counterclaim on day 2, but then it's just the 2 of them vs 2 of kop & ranger, and we don't know who to trust. Only now, on day, can a mason actually come forward and be believed with some certainty.

The theoretical situation of KTS being a mason who is lying about kop & ranger is extremely dangerous to town, as he will almost surely be killed at night and "verify" the legitimacy of kop & ranger, who might not even be masons, and then the true masons will be unable to counterclaim at that point.

I just don't see any good coming from ignoring the issue, every scenario I can imagine involves a loss of information and trust because people will be killed at night.

[karnos]

Ugh, sorry about the dup posts. Internet being slower than usual and I hit submit too many times.

Mod: No worries. Fixed. It's been affecting a good number of us.

Because if they do confirm they've fucking outed the mason team. This shit really isn't hard to understand.

I can't see a scenario in which they aren't already on top of the scum kill lists (unless they are scum themselves).

Basically, confirming helps town, because they can then be trusted.

Not confirming hurts town, and doesn't really protect them from scum at all, because who else are scum going to target? (Maybe me if KTS is really scum, but w/e).

[Randomnamechange]

You're wrong. Not going to have this argument.

[Kasumeat]

Karnos, KTS could still potentially be lying to protect the other masons. As has already been pointed out, knowing who the masons are is a lot more valuable to scum than to town. Yes this could create problems by having Ranger and Kop considered confirmed town when they're not, but we're not going to lose all three in one night. If 2 of 3 die tonight, the living mason can correct us if necessary.

Could you please fucking drop this. Maybe you're just an incomprehsibly horrible town rather than scum, so if you are, all you're doing is making things worse. Your posts are just mind-bogglingly awful and anti-town. If you hadn't fucking started with your incredibly stupid pushes on Ranger and Kop, KTS wouldn't have outed them. If he's telling the truth, it's your fucking fault they're outed.

[Masquerade]

Btd is so scummy....

I'm not convinced BTD6 is stupid enough as scum to not stop digging though.

I agree BTD6 is looking scummy with his posts about the masons, but it doesn't convince me that he's scum. He was already scumreading Kts before Kts claimed so to me it makes sense he's sceptical. Ofc that doesn't necessarily make him town. I didn't like the way Joe jumped that wagon, made me think he's only voting there to save his own behind. BTD6 could go either way for me, Joe is getting a stronger scumread with each post he makes.

@BTD6: There are always going to be odds of hitting the masons with our votes but rn the odds are bigger that we don't. Besides Kts, who are you scumreading and why?

Also, how do you forget your role? If your town and not a mason then you are a VT. The only explanation of this is if you forgot if you were Werewolf or mafia. But you did something like this last time and were town so idk....

That last part, what's that about? I went through your games but couldn't find anything.

PEdit
Nah just gonna post this, have some toughts on Karnos' posts but not sure if I should put them all out there yet. Gonna mull it over some more.

[karnos]

Karnos, KTS could still potentially be lying to protect the other masons. As has already been pointed out, knowing who the masons are is a lot more valuable to scum than to town. Yes this could create problems by having Ranger and Kop considered confirmed town when they're not, but we're not going to lose all three in one night. If 2 of 3 die tonight, the living mason can correct us if necessary.

Could you please fucking drop this.

Really?

Okay, here is the scenario: KTS is killed at night, flips town mason. Kop and/or ranger are actually scum.

Now, you seem to think at that point the living mason can "correct us if necessary". This is where I call BS. You are being completely illogical. A late-claiming mason is going to be trusted over masons vouched for by a 100% confirmed mason? Not likely. And if it *is* likely, as you seem to think, then that means any scum at all can come out and claim mason day 2, after killing KTS tonight, and get the real masons lynched as imposters since you would actually trust a late-claim over the original claimed masons.

I don't see the upside here, please help me. I am not terrible town,

you just didn't think things through

.

[Kasumeat]

Regardless of your role, you're the heavy favourite for scum MVP.

[karnos]

Regardless of your role, you're the heavy favourite for scum MVP.

In your opinion. I can deal with that.

Look, if I was scum, why would I care? I'f be happy lynching literally anyone except my scum partner. I wouldn't care if KTS was acting scummy as hell, or if KTS has already been caught in a lie about who the masons are, I would be perfectly happy lynching javajoe or BTD or literally anyone. Please explain the scum motivation here to tunnnel on KTS as I have, there isn't one.

I want a real answer, as all town should want.

KTS could be legit, and his claim could be correct. I personally think this is unlikely, but it could be true, and for arguments sake lets pretend it is true.

Today we lynch a VT. Maybe BTD, maybe me, maybe javajoe, doesn't really matter. Tomorrow, we wake to find that mafia killed KTS and werewolves killed some random VT. Ozymandias comes out as one of the "real" masons. WTF do we do? If ozy is scum, and we trust him, we lynch another mason, and town is almost certainly doomed. Now of course if we trust KTS posts 100%, and lynch ozy, town still has a chance here, but then the scum know for sure that kop and ranger are masons, and they both get killed at night. 4 VT and 3 scum remain, and it doesn't look good for town at all.

I just don't see town coming back from a huge misplay like this, so I don't really care if I look a little scummy to some because I am pressing the issue.

[karnos]

Eh, I realized I could share my point in a much more succinct manner than the previous wordy post.

Think about this for just a minute, please: If KTS, kop, or ranger are scum, then what is the drawback of counter claiming? The scum already know who isn't a mason, because they have an inside man!

Basically right now we have this weird schrodinger's mason situation, but the scum likely already know the truth. If you are scum, and none of the 3 are known scum, then you know they probably are the masons, and you will kill them at night, isn't that already a given?

[Ranger]

Javajoe24 - 4 - Ozymandias, Masquerade, randomidget, BTD6_maker

This is a pretty horrible wagon aside from randomidget, btw.

[Javajoe24]

I can't comment on that game because it is ongoing. I am actually agreeing with karnos here. If ranger and Kop are Mason's they have nothing to lose by confirming it because they have already been outed by kts. The scum already are going to kill you overnight for being assumed Mason's so might as well confirm to help the town by narrowing the playing field of possible scum by 3 today.

[Killthestory]

Ranger and Kop confirm your masons. Me or Ranger is dying tonight, so it doesn't matter.

Anyway, stop fucking talking about the possibilities.

Java wagon is trash because BTD is on it. Otherwise, I find the other players acceptable. BTD is still scummy as shit, and he's getting away with it. I don't care if you think he's a VI. Intelligence isn't in relativity to alignment, so stop pushing it like you are. What's really relevant here is what BTD is pushing.

He was,pushing I'm not Mason. Idiotic. He was pushing a no lynch. Idiotic and scummy. D1 Lynches will always be superior to no lynches. He then, 3 hours after pushing for a no lynch, pushes Java, an easy target. If that's not a scum mindset I don't know what is.

[Kasumeat]

Ranger and Kop confirm your masons. Me or Ranger is dying tonight, so it doesn't matter.

Anyway, stop fucking talking about the possibilities.

Java wagon is trash because BTD is on it. Otherwise, I find the other players acceptable. BTD is still scummy as shit, and he's getting away with it. I don't care if you think he's a VI. Intelligence isn't in relativity to alignment, so stop pushing it like you are. What's really relevant here is what BTD is pushing.

He was,pushing I'm not Mason. Idiotic. He was pushing a no lynch. Idiotic and scummy. D1 Lynches will always be superior to no lynches. He then, 3 hours after pushing for a no lynch, pushes Java, an easy target. If that's not a scum mindset I don't know what is.

Can I just point out that you're not voting BTD

[Killthestory]

fuck

VOTE: BTD

[Ozymandias]

Joe is still better than BTD. He keeps commenting on irrelevant aspects of the game, without actually trying to solve it. Still waiting for your reads, man.

I am having trouble understanding where the VI border ends and it becomes scum this game. Not everyone can be a VI here, someone must be dumb scum or scum faking dumb, I guess, otherwise the game is solved.

[Kasumeat]

Joe is still better than BTD. He keeps commenting on irrelevant aspects of the game, without actually trying to solve it. Still waiting for your reads, man.

I am having trouble understanding where the VI border ends and it becomes scum this game. Not everyone can be a VI here, someone must be dumb scum or scum faking dumb, I guess, otherwise the game is solved.

I agree that Java is scummy too but it's much safer to sheep the masons while they're still alive

[Ozymandias]

That's bad.

Masons can be wrong.

I think BTD has a chance at being Town, I am not seeing it with Joe.

[Charloux]

I beg to differ. If Joe is scum then BTD is the godfather!
That said i don't think Joe is scum, but BTD is a good choice. I'd vote for him but i promised that idiot Random i wouldn't...

[Ozymandias]

And why do you think Joe is Town?