New Normal Guidelines - April 2017 update!

[GreyICE]

Isn't that just a voyeur/follower?

If not, is the difference large enough to be worth splitting hairs over? A role should be distinct from another role enough that there's no confusion as to which is which.

[GreyICE]

Alright...

So is there design space for:
A role who learns who a person targeted at night
A role who learns what a person did at night
A role that learns if a person did something at night
A role that learns if a person can do something at night
A role that learns if a person was targeted at night
A role that learns what targeted a person at night
A role that learns if a person was targeted at night
A role that learns if a person targeted someone or was targeted by someone at night

I'd say that that is an overly complex design space that gives you virtually nothing in return. And your proposed addons are terrible - Outgoing motion detector could be fine as "Vanilla Cop" and do the same thing, and incoming motion detector seems like it has a 99.5% chance of giving pretty much the same info a voyeur does.

[GreyICE]

Oh I did double up. Heh. I was probably thinking Role Cop in there too, as Role Cop is pretty similar to Vanilla Cop, just with a little extra bang.

[GreyICE]

Greylist, but please don't do them.

Difference between Outgoing motion detector and Vanilla Cop

Outgoing motion detector is much more confusing, will nearly always require mod clarification, doesn't detect roles that have been roleblocked (further hampering the role) and can only sometimes catch fake-claiming scum. Is swingier, since you get the edge case of targeting the NK person and having that person claim VT, but usually will be useless.

Vanilla Cop: Extra roles detected (in a normal): Bulletproof, Neighbors, Masons, Miller, Innocent Child, Godfather

That's a really thin line to parse.

Incoming Motion detector

*Bob dies*
"Guyz, Bob was targeted last night! Guyz, I have a role that tells me Bob was targeted last night. You'll never believe it!"

[GreyICE]

There's a link to the wiki in the OP

[GreyICE]

A role that learns if a person can do something at night = Vanilla Cop

This is not the entire case, vanilla cops also pick up things like bulletproofs and day-active abilities.

Yes, we already covered that. The number of roles is so small (and some of them are things you'd never put in a game with a Vanilla cop anyway, like miller/godfather) that it's really not worth having an extra role.

I mean we could make:
a role that found out who a person targeted at night
a role that found out who a person targeted if their action successfully affected the target

These are two distinct roles, kind of. There'd be no point in having both in the normal rules.

[GreyICE]

It has enough weird interactions that I think it makes a good non-normal role.

It's a commuter-weak cop hybrid who dies if their target is killed, that's like three roles in one. It's also not straightforward like the doctor-roleblocker hybrid.

[GreyICE]

Good role. I think it should become a standard goto rather than Miller/Godfather, it's a version of both that is much more consistent and universal. Not only that, it serves as a replacement for "Macho" for PRs (as long as you don't mind making them immune to roleblock), which is pretty fucking cool. Literally three modifiers in one, but UNLIKE Hider, everything it does is super immediately obvious because it's all easy to summarize.

[GreyICE]

Tracker is a strong investigative role?

[GreyICE]

You mean in the neutered list of investigative roles it's okay?

Weak Neigborizor blows it out of the water. So does Jail keeper or roleblocker. So does Gunsmith. I'd estimate it as around the same strength as a 1-shot cop, and much weaker than a 2-shot cop. Would you put a godfather in a game with a 1-shot cop?

[GreyICE]

The normal roles are lacking many strong investigative roles - Hider, Goon cop, publishing cop, elite bodyguard (okay not investigative role, but hey dead scum), you get the idea.

Weak Neigborizor blows it out of the water. So does Jail keeper or roleblocker. So does Gunsmith. I'd estimate it as around the same strength as a 1-shot cop, and much weaker than a 2-shot cop.

I'll admit that I'm unfamiliar with the weak neighborizer—you have to remember that I'm old school here. (I do think it would single-handedly break the setup, though.) As for jailkeeper or roleblocker, those aren't traditionally thought of blocking roles, not investigative roles, and the possibilities with false negatives with gunsmith would make me argue that it and tracker are about the same strength.

Weak Neighborizer is a Neighborizer that dies if they target scum. Aka Mason Recruiter, with standardized language.

If you think Tracker is both good and an investigative role, you must admit that Roleblocker and Jailkeeper are better. Obviously if a tracker and a roleblocker target the scum committing the nightkill, the tracker gets slightly more information, but the roleblocker/jailkeeper just plain stops the kill. Therefore they are equal information roles to the tracker, but with a doctor component the tracker lacks.

Frankly, unless you have the sort of role madness game where everyone has a PR (admittedly potentially what you're more used to), Trackers mostly get no result whatsoever. There may be 2-3 roles in the game tops that give a tracker result. Even if a tracker targets scum, they have a 1/3 or 1/2 chance of seeing the scum commit the night kill most often. Trackers rise in utility outside the normal queue (just as town roleblockers plummet) but the fact is they are weak and situational.

Ninjas are a crap attempt to balance a role that isn't actually strong in the first place.

[GreyICE]

Oddly I'm kind of okay with losing the 'screw with night action' Mafia PRs. Like, normally I'd be against this sort of thing, but it never felt in any way good for a normal game. Like "oh, I tracked the scum team member that sent in the night kill but they were a Ninja! Cool! What a great mechanic!"

Like, board game theory time, I like actions that make people feel good about their use of them. Using a tracker right feels good. Using a roleblocker right feels good. Using a doctor or a jailkeeper right feels good. They're good solid meaty actions with clear good use/bad use cases. Cop definitely falls more grey. I mean you get town, good. You get scum, good. You keep targeting one of the people who dies at night, you're me. I'm the best cop. But like really, it's not a role with ups and downs.

Godfather, Ninja, same way. I've seen some great Godfather plays, but mostly it's like a bonus. Ninja, same but worse. You more feel lucky than good, and town doesn't feel like they were outplayed they feel like it was PR bullshit.

Town starts at a disadvantage anyway. They need those PRs. I think normal games, where you have very few, the PRs should mostly work. Save the wacky hijinks for the PR heavy games. On the plus side, this also gets rid of some passive always on no thought roles, and I really dislike those.