[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi! I need a few reviewers on an overly complex and elaborate completely open setup. It needs to be simplified, streamlined and stripped of unnecessarities. Its not so much complicated mechanic wise, but has a lot of different roles and exceptions in how those roles work in combination to other roles. Any help would be awesome since I have been basically pulling teeth to get it balanced from other people. thanks.

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi! I need a few reviewers on an overly complex and elaborate completely open setup. It needs to be simplified, streamlined and stripped of unnecessarities. Its not so much complicated mechanic wise, but has a lot of different roles and exceptions in how those roles work in combination to other roles. Any help would be awesome since I have been basically pulling teeth to get it balanced from other people. thanks.

I have received one interested party in taking a look my game in an attempt to balance it. I would still like to get one person well versed in the mafia game theory that is more familiar with this sites particular traditional bent or theory so it will be accepted as a valid setup for this particular site. upon PM I will share a link to a google docs document where you can post your comments at the bottom. I understand this site has a particular criteria for having games balanced and I just want to make sure that when I do inevitably use this setup that people can rest assured that it is not too far out of the normal games that are played here.

Thanks,

LQ

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi! I need a few reviewers on an overly complex and elaborate completely open setup. It needs to be simplified, streamlined and stripped of unnecessarities. Its not so much complicated mechanic wise, but has a lot of different roles and exceptions in how those roles work in combination to other roles. Any help would be awesome since I have been basically pulling teeth to get it balanced from other people. thanks.

I have received one interested party in taking a look my game in an attempt to balance it. I would still like to get one person well versed in the mafia game theory that is more familiar with this sites particular traditional bent or theory so it will be accepted as a valid setup for this particular site. upon PM I will share a link to a google docs document where you can post your comments at the bottom. I understand this site has a particular criteria for having games balanced and I just want to make sure that when I do inevitably use this setup that people can rest assured that it is not too far out of the normal games that are played here.

Thanks,

LQ

My previous interested person said they couldn't do the job.

Some clarification is in order. It is a 27 person power madness game with 4 different alignments. It is a big job so if you feel squeamish about taking on something this size that is totally fair. I just hope I can find someone who is willing to help me with this monster.

[LicketyQuickety]

I have a separate idea as a way to balance a game. Its a matrix, sorta. Basically it is divided into 3 columns and 3 rows just like the newbie game structure the rows consist of death, communication and Night Actions while the columns consists of Preventive, Benefit and Harmful. Now how this works is you assign values to each team for their respected row and column and add up the Preventative and Benefit and subtract the Harmful to get a net. You do this for all rows & columns and teams. You then add up the net column for each team and whatever team has the highest number is favored to win.

So for example take the newbie game format for the first row (1 jailkeeper, 1 VT and 1 Goon +1 Goon and 5VT). For Death: Preventative we would have to factor in both lynches and NKs. So for town lynches it would be 1/9; one townie can prevent one townie lynch out of 9 players. For mafia it would be 2/9; 2 mafia preventing 2 mafia deaths out of 9 in the game. For NK it would be 2/8 for town because the jailkeeper has a 2/8 chance of either saving town or RB the kill. For mafia NK it would simply be 0 since they cannot prevent any sort of NK. For Death: Benefit it would simply be 1/8 for town and 2/7 for mafia. For Death: Harm it would be 8/1 for town and 7/2 for mafia. So what we would end up for the death column for town is (1/9 + 2/8) + 1/8 - 8/1 = -7.8420139. For Mafia it would be (2/9 + 0) + 2/7 - 7/2 = -3.34127. So we can clearly see that mafia has and advantage in the Death row.

Then you would just continue to do that for all 3 rows. Does that even make sense? Do you think there is anything this?

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi,

I'm back for more punishment. I made this game in like 20 min. Let me know what you think.

Spoiler: Very simple game mechanically but should do the job just fine

Game Setup #2 - More basic this time

# of players = 15

RGN for a number between 1-3

1.

***Mafia***

Bus Driver
Can switch Two players at night

Mafia RBer

Goon

Goon


***Town***

Doctor

Vigilante

Alignment Cop

VT X8



2.

***Mafia***

Mafia RB

Mafia Cop

Goon

Goon

***Town***

Vigilante

Cop

RB

VT X8



3.

Mafia Bus Driver

Mafia Cop

Goon

Goon

***Town***

Cop

RBer

Doctor

VT X8

[LicketyQuickety]

Let me know if I should get rid of a goon or something

[LicketyQuickety]

Ignore the Alignment part for the 1 roll of the cop role.

[LicketyQuickety]

Spoiler: Small change for added balance

Game Setup #2 - More basic this time

# of players = 15

RGN for a number between 1-3

1.

***Mafia***

Bus Driver

Mafia RB
Goon

Goon


***Town***

Cop

Vigilante

RB


VT X8



2.

***Mafia***

Mafia RB

Mafia Cop

Goon

Goon

***Town***

Cop

RB

Doctor

VT X8



3.

Mafia Bus Driver

Mafia Cop

Goon

Goon

***Town***

Cop

Vigilante

Doctor

VT X8

I can just add to this to make it more complicated ie more rolls and roles. *shrug*

[LicketyQuickety]

So the over all feel I am getting from some of these setups is that simple games with interesting mechanics is what I should strive for at first?

[LicketyQuickety]

I only didn't comment on your setup because I got a bit lost and I'm a bit dumb.

I'll explain it. Some back ground might be in order though. I originally had a very intricate, ornate and complex game for my first game I made. I have tried to get people to look at it and see if it is balanced, but no one has been able to tell if it is balanced because if how some of the roles interrelate to other roles upon certain circumstances. So I decided to make a much, much simpler game that people could be able to look at and tell me if it is balance right away almost.

4 mafia = 26.67% of total players, two power roles regardless of what specific game is rolled.
11 town = 73.33% or total players, 3 PT roles regardless of what specific game is rolled.

There is a 33.333333333333% chance of rolling and given setup.

There is always a town cop in the game.
If there is a mafia bus driver in the game, then there is a town Vig.
If there is a mafia RBer in the game, then there is a town RBer in the game.
If there is a Mafia role cop in the game, then there is a town doc.

There are 3 setups possible in this game. There is every possibility of there being 2 mafia power roles in the game out of the 3 mafia power roles in the game and the town roles reflect the corresponding role accordingly.

That is the game.

It would be nice to get a comment or two on my game if people can be bothered.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh is the setup in 8162 that complex setup?

I understand that one, I think it's fine, yeah. Reminds me of epicmafia.

I'm not a fan of Bus Drivers personally though. Can he himself be one of the targets he bus drives?

If the cop is redirected to Player A when he targeted player B, will he recieve "Player A is innocent" or just "innocent"?

Yes to both. I could make a mechanic that the bus drive has to pick a different two people to switch every time. they could still switch the same person with someone else though.

11:4 is enormously scumsided though. Remove a goon.

Done. 11:3 it is!

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh is the setup in 8162 that complex setup?

Yes.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh is the setup in 8162 that complex setup?

Yes.

Errr... no. I tried to come up with the simplest setup I possible could in post 8162. The other one makes 8162 look like the simplest game in the world. Sorry I need to learn to read.

[LicketyQuickety]

Yes to both. I could make a mechanic that the bus drive has to pick a different two people to switch every time. they could still switch the same person with someone else though.

I think the Bus Driver is fine as long as he can't self target.

Done!

Does that mean its balanced then or does it still need a few more people to confirm the setup being balanced?

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh sorry, your good at asking questions.

All Cops are Role cops and receive a [player A is role X]

[LicketyQuickety]

I maintain that I need to learn to pay attention to what I read better.

[LicketyQuickety]

3 mafia = 21.43% of total players, two power roles regardless of what specific game is rolled.
11 town = 78.57% or total players, 3 PT roles regardless of what specific game is rolled.

There is a 33.333333333333% chance of rolling and given setup.

There is always a town cop in the game.
If there is a mafia bus driver in the game, then there is a town Vig.
If there is a mafia RBer in the game, then there is a town RBer in the game.
If there is a Mafia role cop in the game, then there is a town doc.

All cops are role cops and will receive the result [player A is X role]
Bus drivers cannot self target.

There are 3 setups possible in this game. There is every possibility of there being 2 mafia power roles in the game out of the 3 mafia power roles in the game and the town roles reflect the corresponding role accordingly.

Ordder of NA:
RB
Bus Driver
Cop
Doc
NK

Still looking for feedback on this setup.

[LicketyQuickety]

If Mafia Roleblocker kills and roleblocks the Town Roleblocker and the Town Roleblocker roleblocks the Mafia roleblocker, what happens?

Actions cancel each other out, so no NK.

[LicketyQuickety]

3 Goons

9 Townies

Scum have no factional kill, plurality lynch.
Each night all townies will submit a list of all players ranked from least like to be scum to most likely to be scum, everyone's rank will be averaged and the bottom 3 will be killed night 1, bottom 2 night 2 and bottom 1 night 3.

This looks like an awesome game! PM me when its played!

[LicketyQuickety]

3 scum
6 town
Nightless
Votes are designated to 3 groups as a single lynch for each day
Players are grouped together in groups of 2 town 1 mafia
Players can only vote for people in their group
Each day a single group is picked to vote
Town wins when both town voters agree
Mafia win when they survive 3 days
No Lynch is possible

[LicketyQuickety]

Fire & Ice Cellblock Mafia with Masons

15 Players

9 Town

6 Mafia

Each group can only vote for players in their group
Each group has a day to vote someone off from their group
Players are grouped together in 3 groups of 3 Town and 2 Mafia
3 Mason groups made up of 2 Town from 2 different groups and 2 Masons per group
2 Mafia Teams made up of 3 Mafia, and 1 Mafia member per group per team
Town wins when 1 member of mafia are killed from each team
Mafia wins when they lose no members of their team
The game is Nightless

Edited.

[LicketyQuickety]

Each group has a day to vote someone off from their group

[LicketyQuickety]

Debated 6 day limit as well.

[LicketyQuickety]

3 scum
6 town
Nightless
Votes are designated to 3 groups as a single lynch for each day
Players are grouped together in groups of 2 town 1 mafia
Players can only vote for people in their group
Each day a single group is picked to vote
Town wins when both town voters agree
Mafia win when they survive 3 days
No Lynch is possible

We called this Cellblock Mafia when we played it. It's really good.

3 scum
6 town
Nightless
Votes are designated to 3 groups as a single lynch for each day
Players are grouped together in groups of 2 town 1 mafia
Players can only vote for people in their group
Each day a single group is picked to vote
Town wins when both town voters agree
Mafia win when they survive 3 days
No Lynch is possible

Sounds fun! It also reminds me of Triplicate Mafia.

Thanks guys, It lacks bells and whistles but I think it could be a good play. I'd like to run this one at some point. In a game like this there probably wont be any RVS LOL.

Fire & Ice Cellblock Mafia with Masons

15 Players

9 Town

6 Mafia

Each group can only vote for players in their group
Each group has a day to vote someone off from their group
Players are grouped together in 3 groups of 3 Town and 2 Mafia
3 Mason groups made up of 2 Town from 2 different groups and 2 Masons per group
2 Mafia Teams made up of 3 Mafia, and 1 Mafia member per group per team
Town wins when 1 member of mafia are killed from each team
Mafia wins when they lose no members of their team
The game is Nightless

Edited.

I would still really like to hear what people have to say about this hypothetical game. Does it seem like it is too difficult to kill off Mafia A and B? Are masons necessary? These are the questions I have giving it a second look. Also I appologize if using Mech in this situation is not proper etiquette. I am not very observant (understatement) and was trying to find the AREA tags but didn't look hard enough.

[LicketyQuickety]

I have another idea revolving around the grouped concept.

Large Group Mafia

15 PLAYERS

12 Town:
1 Town 1-Shot Cop
1 Town 1-Sot Role Blocker
1 Town 1-Shot Bullet Proof
9 Vanilla Townie

3 Mafia:
1 Mafia Godfather
1 Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
1 Mafia Goon

3 GROUPS

that start off with

3 Vanilla Townies w/ 1 Town PR

and

1 Mafia

Each day a group is picked in sequence to vote off someone from their group
Once that group has lynched the mafia from their group, they no longer have a day to lynch
At night phase, Mafia must NK a person from the previous Day Phase group, But Town PR's can choose to use their action on anyone of their choice
All players are able to talk throughout all day phases
Towns win condition is when they have lynched all Mafia members from each respected group
Mafias win condition is to when they hold a 50% majority in any 1 group

Can add or take away VTs as seen fit as well as adding or taking away PR. I don't know whether Town PR should be matched up with an appropriate Mafia role per group or whether they should be randomized.

[LicketyQuickety]

I have another idea revolving around the grouped concept.

Large Group Mafia

15 PLAYERS

12 Town:
1 Town 1-Shot Cop
1 Town 1-Sot Role Blocker
1 Town 1-Shot Bullet Proof
9 Vanilla Townie

3 Mafia:
1 Mafia Godfather
1 Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
1 Mafia Goon

3 GROUPS

that start off with

3 Vanilla Townies w/ 1 Town PR

and

1 Mafia

Each day a group is picked in sequence to vote off someone from their group
Once that group has lynched the mafia from their group, they no longer have a day to lynch
At night phase, Mafia must NK a person from the previous Day Phase group, But Town PR's can choose to use their action on anyone of their choice
All players are able to talk throughout all day phases
Towns win condition is when they have lynched all Mafia members from each respected group
Mafias win condition is to when they hold a 50% majority in any 1 group

Can add or take away VTs as seen fit as well as adding or taking away PR. I don't know whether Town PR should be matched up with an appropriate Mafia role per group or whether they should be randomized.

Still... No one says anything about this. I'll be honest. Honestly I don't know why no one says anything about this game TBH. I have made some changes though. The RB is now a 1-shot Doc. For each group the PT and mafia roles are randomized for the groups. Day 1 all members of Group A's (which is randomized except to say there is 1 random PT and 1 random Mafia per group) votes count for 3 votes each while Group B's and group C's votes count for 1 vote. After group A has had their day phase and a killing night phase (which has to be someone from that previous days group), all subsequent Day phases votes by the previous days group are worth 2 votes and the current groups votes are worth 3 votes and the next group to go votes are worth 1 vote. The exception is that once a group has lynched scum from their group (say Group A lynches scum day 1) their votes become worth only 1 instead of 2 because they are now known townies who cannot die since their group no longer has a lynch phase.

Some things I should say right off the bat...

Town PR do not have to use their NA on someone from their group. So for example: Cop is in Group A and group A lynches mafia Day 1. Cop can investigate anyone of their choosing on any night they wish. 1-shot Doc can choose to save anyone of their choosing as well though they would only want to save someone from the previous days group lynch phase.
Mafia can choose any mafia to use the NK on any one of the previous groups day phase and can also use their ability on any Townies. So for example: The Strong man is not in the group with the BP. Even so, if mafia suspect that the BP is in the previous group (via soft claim, hard claim, what have you) that 1-shot strongman mafia member, granted he's alive, can choose to use his ability on the person they suspect to be BP granted that townie is in the previous days group.

Am I crazy? Is this just a horrible horrible idea? Is it too complex a setup? At this point I don't know what anyone thinks about this game because I have not received any feedback at all from here. It is a setup I would like to run on this site, so if you think it is just an unplayable game, I would really like to hear that so I know its just not going to work.

Thank you so much for reading. I am a newb, but I have spent a lot of time trying to balance this game so any feedback is welcome.

[LicketyQuickety]

So is that a no on Paris Mafia version 2.0?

I didn't see anything called Paris Mafia, could you point it out to me please? Unless there is this weird thing where you are talking about my game which I have no idea where that would be coming from.

I think it's legit

Is this in response to the Paris mafia game or mine?

I apologize that I need things obviously pointed out to me.

[LicketyQuickety]

So is that a no on Paris Mafia version 2.0?

I didn't see anything called Paris Mafia, could you point it out to me please? Unless there is this weird thing where you are talking about my game which I have no idea where that would be coming from.

I think it's legit

Is this in response to the Paris mafia game or mine?

I apologize that I need things obviously pointed out to me.

OK, so I see Paris mafia is not my game which I was pretty sure of already. I have to ask if I have to join a group or something for people to give me feedback on my setups. If I do, what group do I have to join?

[LicketyQuickety]

3 scum
6 town
Nightless
Votes are designated to 3 groups as a single lynch for each day
Players are grouped together in groups of 2 town 1 mafia
Players can only vote for people in their group
Each day a single group is picked to vote
Town wins when both town voters agree
Mafia win when they survive 3 days
No Lynch is possible

Then no one would believe I was going off of the setup that I liked from Not_Mafia and had no idea what triplicate mafia was until I looked it up. Makes sense why everyone loved the idea. :/

I can't speak for everybody else, but I didn't give any feedback because I'm not the biggest fan of the setup idea. It's triplicate mafia with an extra mislynch, some PRs, no room joints and a tougher town win condition.

I have to be honest about a couple of things. I have no idea what you mean by "no room joints." I also don't see how its harder for town to win in my rendition of a beefed up triplicate mafia game. Town gains enormous momentum as soon as they lynch scum. I added that the other groups can vote because I got advice from someone on another forum that once the group lynches scum they will get bored because they can't vote. I didn't think that playing as an IC that can't die would be boring, but that's the only person who was willing to give advice about the game and that person clearly knows what they are doing so I pretty much had to listen to them. After I told them how I would let people vote that weren't in the group after talking it over with someone from another forum I went back to the first guy told my idea and they thought it would work.

[LicketyQuickety]

Druid Mafia (11 players)
2 Mafia Goons
3 Druids (α, β, γ)
1 Town Cop (gets results "mafia"/"not mafia")
5 Vanilla Town

each druid wins if alive when the other druids and mafia are dead. every night, each compulsively sends the mod the name of a player it isn't, and the druids are informed of all of the choices on commencement of the day. they cannot select the same player twice for this purpose.

if all the mafia die and more than one druid is alive, a druid (alpha if still alive, beta if not) will become armed and take on a nightly kill. at that point they will have to be the last player standing (or left with one townie) to win.

the town wins if the mafia die and there is no armed druid alive. if there is an unarmed druid still alive at the end of the game, they share the win with the town.

thoughts on this? balanced? enjoyable for town?

It looks like there are too many druids in the game. I'd also make it random which druid takes on the NK and not until the mafia are dead.

I have another game.

7 Town
1 Cop
4 VT
1 Jester
2 Mafia
1 Goon
2 Synthesis Roles
1 Town with 1 Mafia Goon who are lovers
Cop receives message as Jester/not Jester

[LicketyQuickety]

Spoiler:

This Dance of Ours

This setup is a semi-open setup. 7 numbers are randomly chosen between 1 and 100, then they are converted into letters as follows:
M - 1-50
I - 51-75
J - 76-100
The moderator then has to count how many of each letter there is and adds power roles accordingly. Finally Vanilla Townies are added to the setup until there are 13 roles.

Scum Roles:

0 M's - Mafia Ascetic + Mafia Watcher + Mafia Jailkeeper, Serial Killer (1-Shot Bulletproof or Ascetic)
M - Mafia Ascetic + Mafia Watcher + Mafia Jailkeeper
MM - Mafia Ascetic + Mafia Watcher + Mafia Goon, Serial Killer (1-Shot Bulletproof or Ascetic)
MMM - Mafia Ascetic + Mafia Watcher + Mafia Goon
MMMM - Mafia Rolestopper + 2 Mafia Goons, Serial Killer (1-Shot Bulletproof or Ascetic)
MMMMM - Mafia Rolestopper + 2 Mafia Goons
MMMMMM - Mafia Rolestopper + Mafia Goon, Serial Killer (1-Shot Bulletproof or Ascetic)
MMMMMMM - Mafia Rolestopper + Mafia Goon

Investigative Roles:

I - Motion Detector
II - 2-Shot Tracker
III - Watcher + Motion Detector
IIII - Watcher + 2-Shot Tracker
IIIII - Watcher + Tracker
IIIIII - Watcher + Tracker + Motion Detector

Protective Roles:

P - 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PP - 2-Shot Jailkeeper
PPP - Jailkeeper
PPPP - Jailkeeper + 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPPP - Jailkeeper + 2-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPPPP - 2 Jailkeepers

Example Setups:
PPPIIII

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Watcher
Mafia Jailkeeper

Jailkeeper
Watcher
2-Shot Tracker
6 Vanilla Townies

Serial Killer (1-Shot BP or Ascetic)

IIIIIIM

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Watcher
Mafia Jailkeeper

Watcher
Tracker
Motion Detector
7 Vanilla Townies

IIIIPMM

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Watcher
Mafia Goon

Watcher
2-Shot Tracker
1-Shot Jailkeeper
6 Vanilla Townies

Serial Killer

JJJJMMM

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Watcher
Mafia Goon

Jailkeeper
1-Shot Jailkeeper
8 Vanilla Townies

IIPMMMM

Mafia Rolestopper
2 Mafia Goons

1-Shot Jailkeeper
2-Shot Tracker
7 Vanilla Townies

Serial Killer

IPMMMMM

Mafia Rolestopper
2 Mafia Goons

1-Shot Jailkeeper
Motion Detector
8 Vanilla Townies

IMMMMMMM

Mafia Rolestopper
Mafia Goon

Motion Detector
8 Vanilla Townies

Serial Killer

Mafia Rolestopper
Mafia Goon

11 Vanilla Townies

I have a question and not a critisism about this. In the first group if SK gets targeted for a NK then Mafia already know who SK is, but they don't kill him. I guess I don't get why there isn't a BP for town as well? Sorry, I'm not getting this exactly.

[LicketyQuickety]

Spoiler:

This Dance of Ours

This setup is a semi-open setup. 7 numbers are randomly chosen between 1 and 100, then they are converted into letters as follows:
M - 1-50
I - 51-75
J - 76-100
The moderator then has to count how many of each letter there is and adds power roles accordingly. Finally Vanilla Townies are added to the setup until there are 13 roles.

Scum Roles:

0 M's - Mafia Ascetic + Mafia Watcher + Mafia Jailkeeper, Serial Killer (1-Shot Bulletproof or Ascetic)
M - Mafia Ascetic + Mafia Watcher + Mafia Jailkeeper
MM - Mafia Ascetic + Mafia Watcher + Mafia Goon, Serial Killer (1-Shot Bulletproof or Ascetic)
MMM - Mafia Ascetic + Mafia Watcher + Mafia Goon
MMMM - Mafia Rolestopper + 2 Mafia Goons, Serial Killer (1-Shot Bulletproof or Ascetic)
MMMMM - Mafia Rolestopper + 2 Mafia Goons
MMMMMM - Mafia Rolestopper + Mafia Goon, Serial Killer (1-Shot Bulletproof or Ascetic)
MMMMMMM - Mafia Rolestopper + Mafia Goon

Investigative Roles:

I - Motion Detector
II - 2-Shot Tracker
III - Watcher + Motion Detector
IIII - Watcher + 2-Shot Tracker
IIIII - Watcher + Tracker
IIIIII - Watcher + Tracker + Motion Detector

Protective Roles:

P - 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PP - 2-Shot Jailkeeper
PPP - Jailkeeper
PPPP - Jailkeeper + 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPPP - Jailkeeper + 2-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPPPP - 2 Jailkeepers

Example Setups:
PPPIIII

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Watcher
Mafia Jailkeeper

Jailkeeper
Watcher
2-Shot Tracker
6 Vanilla Townies

Serial Killer (1-Shot BP or Ascetic)

IIIIIIM

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Watcher
Mafia Jailkeeper

Watcher
Tracker
Motion Detector
7 Vanilla Townies

IIIIPMM

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Watcher
Mafia Goon

Watcher
2-Shot Tracker
1-Shot Jailkeeper
6 Vanilla Townies

Serial Killer

JJJJMMM

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Watcher
Mafia Goon

Jailkeeper
1-Shot Jailkeeper
8 Vanilla Townies

IIPMMMM

Mafia Rolestopper
2 Mafia Goons

1-Shot Jailkeeper
2-Shot Tracker
7 Vanilla Townies

Serial Killer

IPMMMMM

Mafia Rolestopper
2 Mafia Goons

1-Shot Jailkeeper
Motion Detector
8 Vanilla Townies

IMMMMMMM

Mafia Rolestopper
Mafia Goon

Motion Detector
8 Vanilla Townies

Serial Killer

Mafia Rolestopper
Mafia Goon

11 Vanilla Townies

I have a question and not a critisism about this. In the first group if SK gets targeted for a NK then Mafia already know who SK is, but they don't kill him. I guess I don't get why there isn't a BP for town as well? Sorry, I'm not getting this exactly.

Does anyone else see yellow colored text in my last post?

[LicketyQuickety]

ooh yay page destroyed again

Sorry.

[LicketyQuickety]

I had this idea that I wanted to try in the micro queue, or the blitz queue now that it's an option, as soon as I know if I have the time in November.

"Buy an ability mafia" (working title)

- No predefined roles.
- Players get to buy an ability for the night.
- The available abilities are on the whitelist below (not fully determined yet)
- Every ability is only available to one player, and they're handed out on a first come, first served basis.
- There will be a max number of abilities handed out each night, so not everyone will be able to do an action. The number is number of players - absolute majority (example: with 13 players, the limit is 6).
- The "cost" of an ability, is the ability to vote on the

next

day.
- you only get to send one request. You will only know if your request is granted the following day.
- There is one special ability, which gives you priority for choosing abilities

next

night.
- Everything else is as usual, player ratios, voting.. Deadlines obviously depend on the queue, but I want "short" deadlines for this game in general. 2-1 for the blitz queue, and 6-1 for the micro queue.

Proposed whitelist:
alignment investigation
ability investigation
kill protect
ability protect
track
reverse track (or watch as you call it)
redirect
roleblock
priority

Any comments on this?

Heh... I played a game that was kinda like this one as an unkillable role.

Have a question about one thing.

You attempt to purchase an ability. Do you get charged a vote or not? Also unless the game is NOT majority lynch I don't see this working.

[LicketyQuickety]

2nd column: why?

[LicketyQuickety]

Sacrifice Mafia is likely scumsided unless there's a breaking strategy. It's complicated enough that I won't be trying to find an exact EV. My attempt at a breaking strategy (since that seems to be what I do lately in this thread) would be:

Cop claims.
If there's no counter, Doc protects as long as possible while Cop racks up results. I suspect town should keep lynching and vig should keep shooting, but Cop should also reveal all results as they are received and town should maybe hold off on lynching/vigging confirmed guilties (to maximize PR survival time).
If there is a counter, Vig now claims. If no counter to that, Doc protects Vig, Cop can keep getting results until the Mafia kill him (or lynch/Vig hits the enabler), at which point the counter is confirmed scum.
If both are countered, maybe Doc should claim, not sure. Probably no lynch anyway, Vig should shoot his counter at night; Mafia are forced to get rid of the Cop pretty quickly so he can't rack up results (best way is by countering the Vig with the Cop Enabler), and that outs the other, but town again should probably wait on lynching/vigging - if scum have nightkilled the Vig, this might be the Doc Enabler and town avoids giving scum an extra kill; if they left the Vig alive, this might be the Vig Enabler and we're more likely to get an extra kill out of the Vig. Regardless, town is in pretty good shape here.

I am unfamiliar with the set up, and I have 2 stupid questions.

1) How does Cop and Vig coordinate NA?
2) What is Mafia's play here?

[LicketyQuickety]

I don't know the setup, but wouldn't mafia have a RB? Why not go after nulls while vig goes after Scummy looking players?

[LicketyQuickety]

If a townie is lynched D1, scum get a "free shot" at the vig overnight (automatically winning if it hits, and going to a 50% EV endgame otherwise).

Maybe I'm missing something in the setup, but if townie is lynched D1, the Vig has a 1/3 shot of hitting both scum if he shoots, while letting scum shoot has an EV of 1/4.

Also, Vig shooting in the scum lynch case has the same EV - 1/3 hit, plus 2/3*1/2 lynch. Doesn't matter if Vig is outed or not, or if the lynch is scum or town, Vig can shoot. EV is exactly 50%. I doubt they can improve on this.

Ah right, I missed that the vig would shoot after a townie lynch (which is weird, because I considered that case correctly in my previous analysis).
After a scum lynch, though, the vig dies if they shoot and miss, leading to a 1/3 rather than 1/2 chance of lynching correctly, so the EV in the "lynch scum then vig someone" case is 1/3 + (2/3*1/3) or 4/9. (Unless I've missed something again, which is quite possible.)

I am enjoying the discussion.

I am just assuming in a setup like this that playing things by the numbers is the right play without considering overall Optimal play? What I mean by Optimal is taking into consideration the psychology of the game as well as the numbers. Obviously depending on the setup the Optimal play is going to change. Take for example a Vanilla game where most of the game is itt. Is there a point where weighing in on the psychological components outweighs the EV?

[LicketyQuickety]

I agree that in practice players are sometimes terrible at strategy, and this can cause towns to play below EV. (Conversely, scum are often terrible at not being scummy, and this commonly leads to towns playing above EV. If that weren't the case, Mafia wouldn't be a very interesting game.)

This is gold right here. I have noticed myself doing this, where I am not really playing strategically as Town. I have played as a mentor in a game and noticed it much much easier to evaluate things from a strategic vantage point. There is also something to be said for Scum getting too caught up in pushing agendas and not Scum hunting, which I again notice in my own game.

[LicketyQuickety]

9 Players

Cop
Insane Cop
Hidden Cop Trigger
VT
VT
VT
VT

Neapolitan
Goon

Roles:
Town:
Cop: Gets a true investigation on people at night. Receives Cop Role.
Insane Cop: gets a false investigation on people at night. Receives Cop Role.
Cop Trigger: Switches the Cop and Insane Cop upon death. This could be any random VT. There is only one in the game. Receives VT Role.
VT: No special abilities. Receives VT Role.
Mafia:
Neapolitan: Can investigate a player at night to find out if they are VT or not. Can Execute the Night Kill
Goon: Can execute the Night Kill

Cops are not told if they are sane or not, they will have to figure that out themselves.
Cops Trigger Role is not told they are Cop trigger. Upon death, this role shows up as VT.

Order of Night Actions:
Cop
Neapolitan
Night Kill

Win Conditions:

Town: Eliminate all members of the Mafia.
Mafia: Eliminate all members of the Town or nothing can prevent this.

[LicketyQuickety]

Cops Trigger Role is not told they are Cop trigger. Upon death, this role shows up as Citizen.

This is terrible in my mind, not the part where they aren't told, but the part where no one knows that they have died, it makes the cops virtually useless because it's basically impossible to work out what sanity they are and whether they switch unless someone is copping the same target multiple times.

The idea is for Cops to live long enough to piece together who is Scum and who is Town. It is Optimal strategy for the Cop(s) to Investigate their strongest reads. In this way, when it is Day 3 and there have been 2 mislynches and it is now MyLo the cops will claim and give their feedback on people, if there is a common denominator meaning they have both investigated the same person, this can clear/confirm several people at once.

[Edit] Also, I have posted this setup on another site and the feedback I got was to actually take out Townies, not add them.

[LicketyQuickety]

Fact is due to the fact that lynches occur, the game isn't going to be as simple as "Piece it together" at best, you work out your sanity for one night, but that doesn't confirm any other night's alignment checks.

EG. Your N2 check is on a dead townie and is guilty, therefore you know that on N2 you were insane, however, you don't know if you were Sane or Insane on N1, or N3 because you could have started as either and could be either the next day.

Optimal strategy for this game is to actually investigate you strongest reads. This can be different from person to person because some people get better Scum reads while others get better Town reads. If there is not switching mechanic, it is just too town sided.

There is ofc a chance of adding VT to this game. If you add both VT and Goon(s) then you could add a millar as well.

[LicketyQuickety]

"If there is not a switching mechanic, it is just too town sided" is not equivalent to "it is a good idea to have a switching mechanic".

If you get to day 3 with both Cops alive, and you haven't already lynched scum, that means there is only one Townie left. It's certainly possible that the Cops will be able to piece together whether they have been switched or not (investigating the same player on different nights would do it),

if

there is no counterclaim, but if you are in this situation obviously one of the scum will claim Cop and muddy the results further.

If you don't get to day 3 with both Cops alive, as Jason points out there is not enough information for the remaining Cop to go on.

When you say "investigate your strongest reads", what you seem to be implying is that you should rely on those reads to determine what your sanity is, rather than relying on your results to determine what your target's alignment is. Which you should be doing anyway, so what is the Cop role adding?

[edit]Also, if what you're after is "Cops should try to stay alive so they can solve the game day 3", just make that their role:

2 Masons
5 Townies
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Goon

If both Masons are alive when there are 5 players remaining, town wins.
[/edit]

You make good points, I can't argue that. The thing is though, that you seem to be taking the game section by section and not as a whole. I don't think the cop is necessarily a wash if one cop dies because they can investigate the same person more than once. So if there is a switch, it is known that their reads can be reliable from that point onward. If there are more VT added, this gives a better chance that Cops survive to claim. Alternatively, everyone can say who they are going to investigate that night and leave their peeks then next day. This way, it provides cover for cops in the case that one dies. if the game goes long enough, a cop can peek the same person again to see if they have switched yet (I am not married to the amount of VT in this game). Also, there is a different between mason and Cop in this context because mason deals with collaborative information while Cope deals with singular information.

Investigating your strongest reads tells the cop how certain he can be of his reads primarily, not necessarily that his checks will be correct. I admit that Cops primary role in this game does not really function as an alignment checker, but more as a confidence meter. If the Cop wants, they can check the same person every night until there is a switch and then he can then depend on his alignment checks.

Masons work differently in many ways in the setup you suggest as replacement. For one, the collaborative component is something that is not found in the setup I have put forth. With masons, you can do things like coded messages that you can predetermine before hand which is not something you can do with a sane and insane cop. Another difference is that if Cop plays the part of what alignment a player is as a single player with a clear result either way. This is different than mason in that masons can disagree on reads or agree on them or a mix of both. I would also argue that masons in a game like this could be much more exponential in the info Town has to work with as the game goes on rather than linear. The reason for this is that masons have an exponential amount of info coming in as the game goes on based on the fact that they can clear each other and this in combination with the fact that as time progresses the masons can get closer to agreeing on reads thereby making synergy a factor not to be ignored. With this said, two masons pushing the same player(s) is not something you get with a sane and insane cop since Scum can CC.

IDK if I have argued my point well enough. I have a hard time explaining what my actual thoughts are sometimes. There is prolly more I can say about this given structure to work with.

[LicketyQuickety]

I know what the difference between a Mason and a Cop is; I wasn't suggesting that they are equivalent. All I am saying is that in the setup as presented (with 9 players), there is a very small chance of the Cops getting useful information out of their abilities, that that very small chance primarily lies within the case where both of them survive to day 3 and can compare results, and that you can get the same feel of "try to survive to day 3" without the investigative nonsense. (Making the two survivor roles Masons is just a twist to make the setup more interesting - it gives the scum something to look for, vs. having two named townies who don't know each other.)

The fact that you're suggesting it might be a good idea for a Cop to investigate the same player repeatedly until the result changes is just emphasizing the point that these "Cops" are basically useless. Further problems with this idea include:

There's a chance the Switch will be the day 1 lynch, in which case they will never get a different result.
There's a chance their target *is* the Switch, in which case they will never get a different result until their target dies and they have to change targets, and won't know that the switch has happened when they start getting results on that target.

Now, I grant that I am stating all of this a little strongly. There are chances for a single Cop to get

something

useful (if only in terms of probabilities rather than certainties). But these considerations don't outweigh the badness of a hidden santiy-switching role.

(A setup with a single Cop who doesn't know his sanity might be reasonably balanced at 2:7; by day 3, if he survives, he will at least know whether two players have the same alignment or not, and if either of them has died he will know what the other one is. That plus the named townie effect might be enough of a boost to get the town to a reasonable EV. Of course, we can get around the "sanity" thing entirely by just defining a new type of investigative role who gets results of same/different alignment from a reference chosen night 1 (or night 0).)

So basically, the right answer for me to have given was flips?

Can you talk a little more about the chance of a new role, how that works and possibly what the +EV play is for them? You are basically saying to create a role where they are told if the person they investigated the night before is the same as the one current investigation, correct?

[Edit] I can see this working where they get a N0 check and there is 3P involved. IDK if the check would be randomized or picked. I also don't know if this is the kind of role that would be best in a small game or big game. How would this work if there are more than one of them in the game? It seems it would be relatively easy to solve the game with 2 of them (that are aligned with Town).

I noticed you didn't say anything about the amount of VT in the setup I suggested. I was thinking (possibly naively) that with more VT this gives the Cops a better chance at surviving long enough to be useful, but you disagree? What if the Cops got a N0 peek? iirc, you are saying my setup is just plain a bad idea?

[LicketyQuickety]

I guess what I'm saying is that roles like a "hidden sanity switcher" are a really bad idea unless there is a really compelling reason to have them, and that you haven't established that this game is such a compelling reason. The closest comparison is dethy, which was as much a puzzle as a Mafia game (IIRC, town can either win outright or get it down to a 50/50 with best play, and the scum is at the mercy of the claim order in affecting which happens). This setup is not as interesting a puzzle, the puzzle is unsolvable most of the time, and neither side has much control over whether the puzzle ends up solvable or not.

K, I think I understand your viewpoint much much better now. You are basically saying if it isn't necessary then there is no point and that I haven't proven that the switching mechanic is necessary. I will just say that without it and with a sane cop and insane cop, the game is too townsided (a point you agree with iirc) in that there is a very clear way to solve the game because at the very moment that there is a flip on someone who has been investigated, the game is very close to being solved. My intent with the setup was to not give Town an overwhelming advantage but keeping in two cops for fun factor. It gives the Cops in the game a lot to chew on and this might impact the game in intangible ways.

But your point is seen. It is unnecessary because I cannot argue that it is as the creator of the setup.

Dang, I really thought that had potential.

[LicketyQuickety]

Follow the Scum

Mafia Seer

Mafia Insane Seer

Werewolf Cop

Werewolf Insane Cop

Town Neopolitan

Town Insane Neopolitan

Town Vanilla Cop

6 * VT

Sanity is not known, but will flip properly.

I have some questions.

do mafia share a chat and werewolf share a chat? Do they get their investigations in the shared chat thread or in a private chat?
can mafia and werewolf investigate and do the NK at the same time?
What is the point of 2x Neapolitans (sane and insane) when half the game is already checked as non VT?

[LicketyQuickety]

I was under the impression 40/50/10 was the ideal in a town/maf/sk scenario.

SK winrate should be very low.

Why?

[LicketyQuickety]

I'd be very down to be an open setup subform mod mith

A topic per setup would probably be fine. Then you could run more frequent contests and such.

Love this idea.

[LicketyQuickety]

Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)

Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)

Thanks!

So, alternative theory...

All players are (non-xshot) gladiators except one townie that is the governor.

And yes, turning the scum into stumps along with town is what would give it the Colosseum atmosphere. Savage and chaotic.

Gladiators need a crowd, after all.

Perhaps a post restriction of 1-line per post, and 3 posts per (r/l) day? That way they could goad or coach, but not flood the game.

I played a game like this.. was fun.

How it went was, Player A challenges player B and the rest of the players choose who to lynch from the two of them. It was basically you could challenge someone anytime throughout the day but the first person who challenged someone began the gladiate. You could challenge more than once. The challenger and challengee could post itt but could reference the thread.

Let me pull it up.

http://personalitycafe.com/mafia/508818 ... hread.html

[LicketyQuickety]

This brings up the right opportunity to ask this (I think) with 2:8, 6 is required for lynch, which means more Townies need to be on a Scum lynch (if Scum are not bussing). How does/does this have an impact on things at all?