[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[JasonWazza]

Is it possible for the Mafia to get Cop/Vig?

This because if they do that could quickly cause problems. (Also somewhat of an egopost )

[JasonWazza]

Maybe inform the scum that they were picked not to become a PR (though that runs different risks)

[JasonWazza]

Yeah fool is the Epic Mafia equivalent of MS's Jester.

Also regardless of "statistical analysis" Odd fool does have an advantage, because we play in the real world, not in the random world.

What would the Mad Scientist get if he targets;
{Fool, Town}
{Fool, Scum}

[JasonWazza]

The odd fool has a .08% advantage overall.

I think your missing my point slightly, if everyone random lynched, then the Odd and Even fool would be about the same, but games aren't based on randomness but on logic, hence the odd fool has a lot more of a strategic advantage because they get the first chance at directing a non random lynch at themselves.

[JasonWazza]

I just wanted to make an open setup

1x Jailkeeper
1x Seer
1x Cop
1x Miller
4x Vanilla Townie

3x Werewolf

3x Mafia Goon

Thoughts?

Too Anti-town sided.

8v3v3 is not a good setup because town can't Mislynch, and could STILL lose.

[JasonWazza]

Also playing around with...

Forget Me Not

Town (10)

2x Amnesic Cop
1x Amnesic Cop or Deputy (random)
7x Vanilla

Mafia (3)

1x Messenger
1x Godfather or Roleblocker (Random)
1x Goon

Messenger is basically a fake Amnesic Cop
For those who don't know Amnesic Cop targets Player X and Y. The investigation result on X goes to Y

Very swingy, looks kinda really fun.

does Y get told who X is?

[JasonWazza]

Why can't town mislynch

even if it is 6v3v3 the town hasn't lost yet.

both scum factions are trying to kill off the opposing faction

Always assume worse case scenario for a little inkling in the setup.

Spoiler: Loss for town

correct lynch on werewolfs.

8v3v2

2 townies dead

6v3v2

Correct lynch mafia

6v2v2

2 townies dead

4v2v2

Correct lynch Mafia

4v1v2

2 townies dead

2v1v2

Correct lynch Mafia

2v2 werewolf win.

Not only did they never mislynch, they lost the game.

Try to remember this, it's a 14 player game.

13 player games generally have a MAXIMUM of 4 anti-town members for balance reasons (any more and it can be impossible for them to win)

[JasonWazza]

Exactly as Flay and Quadz posted.

Worst case scenario you never want a no mislynch game to become a loss as it's extremely unfair for the town (especially if they do so well as to not mislynch).

[JasonWazza]

To be fair most multi scum games are balanced when scum doesn't overpower the town so much (42% of the town being anti-town is a bit drastic)

[JasonWazza]

Alright, so I've run a setup similar to this a long time ago, but does anyone see any problems with this set up.

1x King
2x King's Guards
2x Revolutionaries
4x Townies

King gets to choose someone to execute each day. His guards know each other, but otherwise have no abilities. King can't be killed for as long as guards are alive. All 3 win when Revolutionaries win.
Revolutionaries act as a town-aligned Mafia of sorts. Can talk to each other, have a nightkill. Win when the king is dead.
Townies are just townies without a vote.

Even if you fix the blatant win condition error, i would say this game is highly king sided, especially if he random quick lynches (eg. doesn't give much away on who his king's guard is)

[JasonWazza]

Now that the current Version of the game has finished i will post the setup here and get thoughts.

1- Town 1-shot Global Watcher
1- Town 2-shot Doctor
5- Town Vanilla Townies (Must visit someone each night)
1- Mafia 2-shot Rolecop
1- Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

A mafia member cannot perform the kill and their ability
Everyone must target someone to visit at night. (to possibly shroud the scum kill etc.)
If the doctor is roleblocked they lose their shot, if the Global Watcher is roleblocked they retain their shot.

Test Game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=28648

I actually think it would be an interesting setup to actually have run in the open queue myself.

[JasonWazza]

The difference is that it could be ran in the Open queue?

I'll probably run one every now and then in the micro queue regardless but it'd be nice to have it as a certified open setup,

like egoboosting to know my setup is that popular

and so that i possibly can you know, play in the setups.

[JasonWazza]

So in other words the vigilantes are basically roleblockers as well?

And all roleblocks happen before the kills?

[JasonWazza]

How would you resolve the following (probably unlikely but i think it's worth discussion.)

Vig 1 targets Vig 2
Vig 2 targets Sane Doctor
Sane Doctor targets Vig 3
Mafia Goon targets Vig 3

[JasonWazza]

(knew i fucked that up)

I mean does Vig 3 die as well?

[JasonWazza]

D1 vig claims, lynch as normal but have three non-doc players chosen by town forceably target vig. That vig will live, any "vig" who didn't die is confirmed scum. Its getting to the semi-game breaking stage of things if you are calling scum a killing role.

Don't you mean that if that vig dies, one of the 3 is confirmed scum? (or one is confirmed vig?) The game breaking strategy would need a bit more work than just that.

(though them living would confirm the 3 targetting to either all be town or all scum)

No because of the odd/even night rule.

[JasonWazza]

And no way to trace the targeting.

[JasonWazza]

So in other words your gonna let the Town kill themselves, Scum have no reason to do said killing.

[JasonWazza]

Make them only put down 2 Marks and make the other mark a Miller (unknown would be best)

The less marks Mafia place the better.

[JasonWazza]

Here's the problem.

3 Mafia
2 Cops
5 Vanilla Townies
3 Millers

Is basically how the setup turns out, more often then not the Millers will be the strongest townie players, and unless lynched will survive till a LYLO situation.

Hence why the number of marks that scum place should be minimized as much as possible, because the likelihood of the 3 getting lynched at all (even with a claimed cop guilty) is low.

[JasonWazza]

Basically, someone with a 0 shouldn't be on your team, so, lynch them.

(same as 10's etc. really)

[JasonWazza]

Executioner Mafia

3 X Town Executioner/1-shot Governor
4 X Vanilla Townie
1 X Mafia Executioner/1-shot Janitor
1 X Mafia 1-shot Day killer

Mechanics: Nightless
Role reveals are based on what's selected and is divided into the following
Alignment, Role Name Part 1, Role Name Part 2
At the end of each day there is a 48 hour period of Twilight between the lynch going through and the next day
Executioners pick either one of the 3 parts of the role reveal or to use their 1-shot ability

Town Executioners/1-shot Governors - The ability is to stop said lynch from going through, however upon doing this, the Executioner becomes esentually a Vanilla Townie
Mafia Executioner/1-shot Janitor- At any time this executioner may choose to instead of stopping the lynch, make it go through with NO Role information given, this overrides the Governors and the Governors will stay executioner's, however you STAY an executioner regardless

If role name part 1/2 aren't both gotten the name part will be "Vanilla" or "Townie" regardless.

The idea is that the Mafia Executioner still has to pick something to reveal, in mass claim this game is not broken because of the day killer.

[JasonWazza]

By my understanding it's a MYLO situation by default.

So in other words, town has 2/5 chance of winning by my count.

[JasonWazza]

Actually the above is a good point, death happens before recruitment thus the dead guy could be either the cult recruit or the cult recruiter.

But given that knowledge it should still be a 2/5 chance, as the cult-recruiter should just recruit the dead guy's biggest town read/not recruit his scum read.

[JasonWazza]

Doc is a protect?

Roleblocker is a sort of Cop cross Roleblock?

JK is awesome.

There is multiple reasons to learn other things.

Question: does scum have to submit the kills or can they choose?

[JasonWazza]

Town Lynches Strongman D1.

Seraph Knights protect the Vig, Cop and a VT.

Game is completely fucked.

[JasonWazza]

They don't need to.

[JasonWazza]

My thought:

Cop and Vig claim day start, scum have no real motivation to counter claim.

Lynch from the rest, assumedly manage to hit the strong man.

Game is fucked in the anus.

[JasonWazza]

If the strong man live he is one shot, either he gets rid of the one-shot cop, or the Odd night Vigilante, he can't get rid of both.
Knights should be able to at least somewhat co-ordinate protects, though it's doubtful that one would protect a VT, it's possible.
Mafia counterclaiming puts them in a harder postion, as it bring's out 1v1's.

[JasonWazza]

Yeah that would probably stop it.

[JasonWazza]

Though it's quite simply possible that no one will be protected in that case.

[JasonWazza]

It's not even mafia anymore

[JasonWazza]

It depends on how it's played as to what win chance it has.

7/5

58% chance of lynching town
42% chance of lynching scum.

From there it stays around the same odds.

The fact that scum are going to avoid lynching each other

Generally

it makes it more town sided in some ways and scum sided in a lot of ways.

However i as scum, wouldn't mind bussing a weak scum player to eliminate a strong town player.

I think all in all, it's probably fairly 50/50 win chance given

Real

Parameters (less taking randomness into account)

[JasonWazza]

So someone told me to post my open-setup here... No, this is not for these forums, it's for another who was interested in the game.

ohai someone told me to come here. My set-up is open, so I thought posting here should help.

Special Mafia

(I don't have a specific name)

3 Mafia
1 SK
5 Vanilla Townies
1 Cop
1 Doctor
1 Vigilante
1 Jack-of-all-trades

Mafia has 3 one-shot abilities, and SK has 4.

-One Mafia member has:
1) Protectionability (Basically Doctor)
2) Factional kill protection (Factional kill cannot be roleblocked)
3) Roleblock (Roleblock).

-Another mafia member has:
1) Role-cop ability
2) Hiding ability (Cannot be investigated, protected, killed, or roleblocked)
3) Factional kill protection (Factional kill cannot be prevented via Doctor)

-The last Mafia member has:
1) Poisoning ability (Poisons one person. Person dies the next night if he isn't protected by the doctor.)
2) Roleblock ability,
3) Jailkeeper ability (Protects everyone, but the factional kill and any other ability will not happen)

The SK has 4 special abilities.
1) If the SK's kill goes through, the next lynch costs 1 less vote.
2) If the SK's kill goes through, he gets to kill the person he was targeting the next night. (Only this kill, not this kill and another one for the night)
3) Kill bypasses Doctors, but not Roleblocks.
4) Kill bypasses Roleblocks, but not Doctors.

NOTE: Once again, all of these abilities that the Mafia and SK has are ONE-SHOT only.

Lets go worse case scenario for a second

Mafia kill SK N1, and poison the cop, SK kills the doctor and sets up ability 2 to kill the jack of all trades.

Town is fucked anally.

Way's to fix: Give mafia

1

1-shot ability each, they are way to overpowered.

SK, 1) is ridiculously overpowered. 2) isn't blocked by being killed? 3) is useful, 4) is wasteful, as unless the JoAT has a roleblock (P.S. what does the roleblocker have?) then simply by eliminating the mafia, this is useless.

[JasonWazza]

It depends on how it's played as to what win chance it has.

7/5

58% chance of lynching town
42% chance of lynching scum.

From there it stays around the same odds.

Actually it changes fast

7/5 = 42/58
6/4 = 40/60
5/3 = 37/63
4/2 = 33/67
3/1 = 25/75

Town wins in lynch patters of
SSS
SSTS
SSTTS
STSS
STSTS
STTSS
TSSS
TSTSS
TSSTS
TTSSS
Town wins at 24% of the time

With that many scum, and with having to sacrifice one of their own at night if town are lynched during the day phase, the associative stuff really piles up.

It would be interesting to see this game played out a few times. I think town will do a lot better than a 24% win rate.

Agree with FF.

Also Llama, i think you missed the part where town are

allowed

to no lynch to make the numbers more even.

i'd guess a 3-1 MYLO you would take the kill and make it 2-1

[JasonWazza]

So your going to lie to players rather then have it beneficial for players to lie?

Cop with a Lied about innocent is just as bad as encouraging players to lie.

Town Macho watcher with a Mafia Roleblocker and Town Doctor is fucking over powered for scum

What your basically doing is making what is slightly town sided, into massively scum sided.

[JasonWazza]

Godfather is an extremely standard and normal role. It's not lying to a player, especially when you open up the setup so they KNOW it's a possibility. It means they have to analyze their results with what they know from day-play.

A watcher is super powerful. They give incredible incentive for the mafia NOT to kill someone who's incredibly town and seen as such by a lot of people in the game, which is a massive power for the town. What do you think is massively over-powered for scum about it?

B: Originally, Amrun pushed for a cop to not be included in Matrix6B at all. The reasoning behind that is that newbie setups should emphasize day play, which we both agree on, and a Cop is the top-of-the-ladder of night-play heavy roles. The alternative was the Godfather. I wouldn't be horribly opposed to turning the Godfather into a RoleCop, though, with the understanding that it affects Setup #1.

C: The alternative to Doc/Macho Watcher/Roleblocker is to take the Macho modifier off the Macho Watcher and change the Doctor to a lesser protective role. We considered this, but the only role we could think of that would balance and have the intended effects would be a Bodyguard, which we both agreed has no place in a newbie setup. A successful protect would lead to death, which would be bitter sweet for someone playing their first game. Does anyone have any other alternatives we may have missed?

Godfather

IS

Lying to a player, whether standard or not, 1-shot BP is also standardish (about as standard as Godfather i think) So effectively your changing the liar to being the mod.

A. Yes watcher is super powerful, but if he claims at all he is dead, and if he is found at all he is dead, and then doctor's play is to attempt to not protect a Watcher.

B. I wouldn't mind seeing Godfather be a Rolecop instead, it moves away from the Cop innos basically being useless.

C. Personally i would say body guard is alright

But

Maybe make it a 1-shot doctor?

[JasonWazza]

3 is the same as C really, except in C you do have a doctor, but he just has to sit by well you get shot.

[JasonWazza]

Another problem i see is the fact that, Mafia basically have full knowledge of the setup from the start.

[JasonWazza]

Lets go worse case scenario for a second

Mafia kill SK N1, and poison the cop, SK kills the doctor and sets up ability 2 to kill the jack of all trades.

Town is fucked anally.

Way's to fix: Give mafia

1

1-shot ability each, they are way to overpowered.

SK, 1) is ridiculously overpowered. 2) isn't blocked by being killed? 3) is useful, 4) is wasteful, as unless the JoAT has a roleblock (P.S. what does the roleblocker have?) then simply by eliminating the mafia, this is useless.

Thanks for some actual advice. Haven't gotten any in like forever.

JoAT does have a roleblock ability. There is no Roleblocker role in specific. Should I remove a Vanilla Townie for one?

The SK's abilities are that overpowered because it's kinda hard to play as (Being alone and an all vs. one sorta deal) and I wanted to attempt to even out the playing field. That obviously didn't work because now the SK is a bit overpowered.

So any tips on how to fix the SK? The Mafia is definitely being reduced to 1 ability, and I might remove a Vanilla Townie for a Roleblocker.

SK's generally have a bulletproof (whether it be 1-shot or multiple-shot) that blocks the night action side of the "One Vs All"

Let the SK have a 1-shot Strongman kill the breaches everything (i don't see the point of giving them something that goes through one of {Roleblock, Doctor} as that is basically fucking the SK anally) or a 1-shot poison that is a day delayed (but remember the poison add's a kill and always take that into account for balance.)

Then you get the SK to a point of "If your play is good enough you will win"

[JasonWazza]

I'm pretty confused by JasonWazza saying something is scum sided and then suggesting that the power be decreased?

The suggestion i made was with the Macho being removed from the watcher.

[JasonWazza]

Yeah, a doc+watcher is not going to happen.

1-shot doctor and watcher

Jesus i swear you can't keep a conversation going longer then the post i'm in.

[JasonWazza]

That's a thought, what is the merit of having one of the lines consist of a VT?

[JasonWazza]

So your saying that saving a PR till LYLO should be useless?

[JasonWazza]

A) there's 13 players, so assuming they have saved it till LYLO they have saved it at least 4 days (wait 2 scum in a 13 player?) and honestly should be able to save his own ass when it could be a SCUM OR TOWN President.
B) I agree him using it to save his own ass isn't beneficial to the setup BUT REMEMBER IT CAN STILL BE A TOWNIE PRESIDENT.

[JasonWazza]

Possible solution: Make only the sane cop Macho.

[JasonWazza]

Possible solution: Make only the sane cop Macho.

oo I like

only problem I can see with that is if a successful protect on a cop occurs, everyone knows it's the random cop. also if the doctor targets a cop and then that cop dies, then the remaining cop is random. half the fun is not knowing which cop is which

How does anyone know it was a successful cop protect?

Yes Doctor can confirm the cops, on the off chance, but you risk that happening anyway, this just nullifys a follow the cop situation arising, it also makes it less likely for a massclaim of any kind to happen early on.

[JasonWazza]

I don't know about 7:2 being scum sided.

I think 7:2 is probably about even depending on play style (it may be less even if the scum hold back as long as possible to prime everything).

You have to realize, they have to prime someone that won't be lynched, Yes Fire Marshall clears people, he is basically clearing dead people.

[JasonWazza]

I don't know about 7:2 being scum sided.

I think 7:2 is probably about even depending on play style (it may be less even if the scum hold back as long as possible to prime everything).

You have to realize, they have to prime someone that won't be lynched, Yes Fire Marshall clears people, he is basically clearing dead people.

Wait... Is this assuming that the Arsonists can ignite and arson someone else on the same night?

Nope.

[JasonWazza]

Let me see...
1 Cop (random sanity between sane and insane)
1 backup cop (random sanity)
1 backup backup cop (random sanity)
1 Psychologist (sane)
5 Vanilla Townie (Random sanities)
2 Mafia Goon (Random sanities)

1 Mafia Rolecop (Can see backup cop and backup backup cop roles) (Random sanity)

No one is aware of their sanities unless the psychologist tells them.

Is this more balanced? Does this present the psychologist nicely?

What the hell happens when a rolecop has an insane sanity?

[JasonWazza]

The main problem is simple, it promotes random lynching.

[JasonWazza]

But as soon as lists are involved in the game, the scum have massive advantages and are very unlikely to miss a kill (2 scummiest get doc'd, towniest gets killed)

At least going random lynching they have a chance of fucking up.

[JasonWazza]

Not if you do a theme game, Normal games have the normal requirements but that is all.

[JasonWazza]

9v3v3 is a bit Mafia sided.

[JasonWazza]

oh.... my bad.

[JasonWazza]

Super quick and dirty setup idea, thoughts?

Sacrificial Flag

Nightless
Town win when no scum remain alive.
Scum win when there are only two townies left alive.
At the start of each day if there are two or more scum alive they must select one member of the scum team to sacrificed if a town player is lynched that day.

5 VT's / 3 Goons

Thoughts:

There is an extremely odd form of feedback for the town, if the town is doing poorly it takes fewer scum lynches to win or if scum is doing poorly it takes more scum lynches to win. The game mechanics force it towards a more "balanced" state, it can anywhere from a single scum lynch to three scum lynches for the town to win.

Scum has a large voting bloc and has the ability to have their sacrificial goon quick-hammer / behave blatantly scummy because they're going to be dead by the end at nightfall anyway. However their voting blocs power is moderated by the fact that the game will always reach a X/1 game state so the need one of their members to remain unsuspected throughout the game to win.

I feel like a perfect scum game is very hard to hit.

Yes a goon can act delibritely scummy once they are going to die, but they shouldn't before they are going to finalaize a lynch elsewhere (3/1 is a perfect, so any goons getting lynched just makes the last goons job so much harder)

[JasonWazza]

1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia Goon

1 Serial Killer

1 Jailkeeper
4 VTs

The problem i see arising is this, Doctor is always going to protect the goon (why protect anyone else?)

Then we get down to the JK, if there is a no kill, the logical thing to do is for the JK to keep hitting the target they have hit (Either they hit the SK, meaning the SK can no longer kill and JK should claim or, the JK has hit the SK's Target in which case he should still keep hitting the same target, unless the JK was missed for the Doc.)

And we come to a point where it is likely that the JK will claim the target and have them lynched (actually this may be the one reason the mafia would benefit from using the Doctor elsewhere)

[JasonWazza]

I haven't played enough games to mod, but

Castle Mafia (13p)

1 King (that knows what every other town role is, but turns up GUILTY if investigated)
2 Vig (Flavor: Knight)
3 Vengeful (Flavor: Servant)
1 Jester
2 Jester Servant
1 Jester Knight
1 Jester Cop (Flavor: Councillor)
2 1-shot Bulletproof Mafia Roleblocker

By default the game is open, so what is the use of the king?

Also 5 jesters in a 13p game is rediculous, the "Mafia roleblocker" may as well be an SK.

Wild West (20p)

7 3-shot Dayvigs
5 2-shot Lynchproof
3 Vengeful
5 1-shot Lynchproof 1-shot Mafia Dayvig Jesters

Nightless. Each vig needs a day to reload so he can fire the day after he reloads (which is after when he shoots). All kills count as Lynches.

So the point of this game is what exactly?

You roll Mafia Jester or instant lose.

1 Bulletproof 2-shot Psychiatrist
1 2-shot Deathproof Watchlisted Loved 1-shot Psychiatrist 1-shot Vigilante
1 2-shot Bulletproof FBI Agent
1 Investigation-Immune SK
1 2-shot Bulletproof SK
1 3-shot Bulletproof Hated SK
1 2-shot Lynchproof SK
1 3-shot Lynchproof 3-Shot SK
1 1-shot Deathproof SK
1 2-shot Deathproof Voteless SK

Watchlisted is SK version of Miller. Loved = +1 votes to lynch. Hated = -1 votes to lynch.

This game is stupid in so many ways. 3 town vs 7 SK's is basically a SK win waiting to happen, so again instant loss as a townie.

[JasonWazza]

Wild West (20p)

7 3-shot Dayvigs
5 2-shot Lynchproof
3 Vengeful
5 1-shot Lynchproof 1-shot Mafia Dayvig Jesters

Nightless. Each vig needs a day to reload so he can fire the day after he reloads (which is after when he shoots). All kills count as Lynches.

So the point of this game is what exactly?

No idea. I think I wanted it to be swingy.

You roll Mafia Jester or instant lose.

The town is 15 players. the scum is 5 players. And the lynchproofs stay alive quite easily.

All kills count as lynches

Jester = lynch win
Mafia = majority win
Mafia Jester = NO POSSIBLE LOSS IN A GAME WHERE KILLS ARE LYNCHES

[JasonWazza]

Giants vs Humans

2 Giants

10 Humans

Giants are essentially Mafia Goons. They get nightchat and a factional kill.
Humans are basically Town Compulsive Hiders. Except multiple people can hide behind the same person and when you do hide actions that target you still effect you.

So it's basically a game a WIFOM. Town wants to confirm certain players, but they don't want to target the obvious player or they'll get mass-killed by scum. But then scum can anticipate that and shoot the least likely person. And of course Town can die by just targeting scum.

Thoughts? It's a bit scum-sided now, so maybe randomly assign each of the Townies as Even or Odd night? Could add another layer of depth.

Not sure if trolling, but I'll bite.

Obvious Breaking strategy:

Players assign 1 through 12 to each player, and no lynch.

Every player targets the player who has 1 more than their number (i.e. #1 hides behind #2, etc.), and player #12 hides behind #1.

Even with the giant's night kill, only max three players will be killed. Giants have been narrowed down to three players, and it's currently 2 vs 7.

GG.

Ummm no? cause no one can tell if they were hidden behind?

So giants just kill out of order (say 3-4 away from their numbers) and boom they are safe.

[JasonWazza]

Survivor is basically a SK without a kill.

But i have to ask, how does a survivor actually win the game? (ie. does he have to survive to day X or does he have to end in a 1v1?)

[JasonWazza]

a) i think Survivor stealing the win is a bit silly (and basically makes them a 2nd Mafia with no kill/SK with no kill).
b) I think that game isn't necessarily balanced for any side (balanced implys that the game is based on skill and not luck).

5v1v1 isn't ever going to be that good of a game.

[JasonWazza]

This is less Mafia and more like conspiracy (same concept, different game because plain and simply you don't have an Uninformed MAJORITY and an informed MINORITY which is the key indicator of mafia games.)

[JasonWazza]

Offense or Defense

9 Players

1 Mafia Goon

8 Townies

• Mafia decides on N0 to play as "Offense" or "Defense".
  
• If Mafia chooses Offense, they are allowed to have up to two night kills each night (none on N0). They do not have to use both night kills each night.
  
• If Mafia chooses Defense, they are allowed to recruit one of the eight Townies. They may do so on any night phase, including N0.

What do y'all think about something like this? The offense option may not have enough incentive, but maybe because I'm more of a conservative player. I think maybe there are those that would relish that option.

Pfft offense all the way.

[JasonWazza]

Actually question, is the decision announced or kept secret?

[JasonWazza]

Seems townsided from a glance.

If the SK is lynched mafia is fucked.

If the Mafia is lynched then killed by the SK then the SK is likely fucked.

Regardless of both of the above, it tends to have no kills constantly (unless mafia and SK both hit the same person they won't die not including the doctor) and looks like a mountainous.

Given randomness, probably town sided, given claim-ability Probably extremely town-sided.

Lynch BT day 1
Doctor does nothing Night 1
Both kills hit a different BT (if one hits the SK he is fucked, the only chance he has is being avoided till late game)
Doctor claims with BT's Day 2
3 conf. town, 8 alive

Yeah probably really townsided, fact is unless something really screwbally happens, and each night the Mafia and SK manage to target the same BT (without the doctor targeting this same BT), it's townsided, if SK and Mafia do manage to hit the same target each night, then it basically becomes a 6v3 and town is fucked.

(sorry for how stupid this probably looks, i did it as i thought it up.)

[JasonWazza]

Bulletproof's Mafia

2 - Mafia Goons
1 - 1-shot Bulletproof SK
5 - 1-shot Bulletproof Townies
1 - Town Doctor (protects from 1 NK)

BPs get notified when hit

i stole the idea from another site. i have no idea if this is balanced

There's a similar setup in EpicMafia.
1 goon, 4 1SBP, 1 SK, 1 doc, night start. Has 50% Town win, 25% Mafia win, and 25% SK win if you want stats.

Epic Mafia =/= here

They don't play optimally.

Also Mafia and SK can't win together on proper forums in most cases.

Lynch BT day 1
Doctor does nothing Night 1
Both kills hit a different BT (if one hits the SK he is fucked, the only chance he has is being avoided till late game)
Doctor claims with BT's Day 2

Given that you've lynched a BT on day 1, there's a pretty decent chance that the doctor is going to die on night 1, no? [There's a 5/6 chance the mafia don't shoot the doctor and a 6/7 chance the SK doesn't shoot the doctor, which means there's a 2/7 chance that at least one of them does shoot the doctor.] Town's chances must (presumably?) drop quite a bit when this happens [you go from three people claiming on day 2 to just one claiming].

Of course, that said, I agree this set-up looks town-sided. First instinct is to suggest that you don't inform the BPs when they've been hit, maybe?

2/7 ain't that good a chance, i agree win rate drops slightly when that happens, Mostly because you then get Max 1 Conf. Town and that conf. town always dies.

Basically we come to a setup that is completely town-sided unless one thing happens;

Mafia makes a big ass gambit, that is likely to make or break the game.

[JasonWazza]

I like how you took out the win rate that i was about to comment on

I think dropping claimability is very important to make it less swingy, when deaths are going to be avoided so often.

[JasonWazza]

yeah sry for confusion, I think not notifying when hit is a good idea. it prevents any way of clearing people via being hit. although mafia could also do a no kill gambit and claim they got hit

yeah I got really bored so I wrote a simulator for the setup but I don't trust I did it right 0.0 I'd rather do an actual EV calculation before putting nay results up

No kill gambit means they have to kill themselves and is a terrible gambit.

[JasonWazza]

Also, I was thinking of running a version where the mafia get to choose the next gunbearer after they're shot (kindof like a vengekill).

Why would they give it to anyone but who shot them?

Fact is giving someone the gun give's them conf. town status, so whoever had the gun is conf. town, and now whoever has the gun is also conf. town.

[JasonWazza]

Wouldn't they just non-gunbearer all those they thought would be shot, and give the gun to the townies in the hope they kill themselves?

Especially because it's in their best interest for a non-gunbearer to be killed.

[JasonWazza]

It's not better for either team really, the problem however then becomes, if one side is entirely lynched, town will likely just curbstomp.

EDIT: you also get the problem of no kills happening a lot more often.

[JasonWazza]

I think if it's gotten to a 2:2 scenario, it's time to call it a town win.

[JasonWazza]

Question, do you flip people at all?

[JasonWazza]

Given the mechanic, i feel like VCA might be more worthwhile nearing end game (3:2/3:1) and that the giving of flips makes things all that much more difficult for the scum.

[JasonWazza]

Miller and Cop, that'd make everything awkward.

@CFJ: You may be right, i just think it benefits VCA in a huge way compared to normal games, and that it could have a more negative effect on the game, however that's because i think VCA's suck so that may be my bias talking

[JasonWazza]

When a player is lynched they submit a name of a player they want to die and chooses if they want it under shell 1, 2 or 3.

Claim shell number, instant vengekill working.

Also it means scum can't do any actual kills.

[JasonWazza]

Nevermind apparently i read that wrong, ignore me.

[JasonWazza]

It means the miller is a lot more worthless.

[JasonWazza]

If BOTH town become obvious town, then you get no lynch because there's no way scum would lynch anyone because then they lose.

Or the scum grow a brain and actually put doubt into both the townie's minds.

Why would scum lynch each other when the two town are obvious?

To put doubt into the townies mind in the thought of "Why would scum lynch each other in this situation where two townies are town reading each other?"

[JasonWazza]

Except it's not 3 scum to 6 townies in that case, it would be 2 scum to 7 townies, which is normal (2 of the scum are a lover pair).

[JasonWazza]

Are you telling publicly who has WHICH bomb?

[JasonWazza]

In no way would that be balanced.

Scum recruiter is a dunce and recruits early before it forces a win:

Random Townie: Suicide bomber's claim and pick a target
Suicide bomber 1: I'll kill the recruiter
Suicide bomber 2: I'll kill the recruited.

So basically it's a 2v8 with a day early ending if the recruiter survives.

[JasonWazza]

@Marquis's Setup.

First up it looks fun, but mafia can get fucked so damn easily.

Depending on the amount of peasants, the game may be broken by the pairs claiming, if 3 pairs claim, lynch from the non pairs, if 4 pairs claim, lynch between the pairs.

Other then this, if the Mafia end up being the Prince/Princess Lover's, they are relying on that townie actually being competent and not being lynched, as Town can lynch that person and still manage to kill Mafia.

Not to mention that even though it's a 3 man scum team, they basically act as a 2 man scum team due to the pairing, meaning that scum have a major disadvantage.

Though all this depends on the amount of peasants realistically.

EDIT: Also in the case that the Mafia goon is rolled, and lynched Day 1 the game is broken by having pairs claim and either be confirmed town (the mafia pair don't claim) or become confirmable town (have their partner lynched.)

[JasonWazza]

Does the scum still have a kill that they can use on VT's if they don't die?

Either way it's townsided, 3P LYLO can only ever be a Goon, IC and a VT, it's just a matter of how many lynches the scum have to dodge in such a conf town heavy environment.

[JasonWazza]

Interesting Mechanic. The idea of making the vig compulsive seems fun to me.

I debate this simply because of the lynch mechanic (dead townies = lynch amount) it means the Vig isn't really penalized for being wrong.

[JasonWazza]

Fake claim being primed with one of those that are primed (in other words don't prime on a night, this is probably the igniter), proceed to prime everyone, then pop goes everyone when enough are ready because the igniter is a fake innocent.

[JasonWazza]

Personal belief is that it doesn't have to be whiteflag just give the scum a chance to give up when it's one of the left (there's a chance that they are on the verge of winning if the last one alive is the igniter.)

EDIT: As a note, i think it's in town's best interest NOT to claim when they have been primed.

[JasonWazza]

Why do you think so?

Because what benefit does it actually hold to claim the instantly?

Essentially you've just got an easy way to be "confirmed" town simply because the town is claiming (EDIT: for scum), and it makes it a lot harder to guess if the person is lying if everyone just claims it the second they have it done, not to mention it means that you won't end up lynching them (keeping the numbers of primed players higher.)

There is no night kill so it's not like the townie's can be killed without being able to claim their priming night.

[JasonWazza]

-Town wins if 3 scums are sent to hell, scum wins if 3 scums are sent to heaven.

What happens if 2 scum go each way?

[JasonWazza]

-Only townies who are sent to heaven are added to the dead PT. Townies who are sent to heaven have a separate martyr PT.

This doesn't quite make sense, wouldn't this qualify the dead QT as the Martyr QT?

[JasonWazza]

-Only townies who are sent to heaven are added to the dead PT. Townies who are sent to heaven have a separate martyr PT.

This doesn't quite make sense, wouldn't this qualify the dead QT as the Martyr QT?

I think he means there are two "dead" QTs. One general dead QT, and another one just for those who are sent to heaven (martyrs)

Yes but he had Heaven in both of them, meaning they all went to one dead topic and Hell doesn't have a topic.

Could 'Rebels in the Palace' be considered Normal? (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... the_Palace)

I have an idea for a slight deviation on it, and would like to try it in the Normal queue.

I'm not sure nightless is allowed, but you could just call the guards traitors, the king a goon and the rebels vts

It sounds basically not normal, the variant could be normal but you have to base it off this

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

[JasonWazza]

Pretty sure nightless isn't inherently non normal (at least according to the wiki) but you'd have to bring that up with the normal review crew.

[JasonWazza]

Also, nothing in that page says you can't use a Day Cop role. I think it'd be Normal if you had an X-Shot Cop that can use its ability during the Day.

Considering it's not in the approved modifiers (given it's not that unknown of a modifier) i would say it's probably not normal.

As has been said though, you will get a normal review crew to check your setup, for normal queue.

[JasonWazza]

I like the Merlin vengeful, but is it 7 or 9 players?

[JasonWazza]

It's both, it's positive in that Town knows who scum is, but it's negative that if they are too obvious then it's a free win for scum.

[JasonWazza]

The other roles are distributed among the town at the start of Day 1.

[JasonWazza]

Question, does the weak doctor die if he protects the goon, or just if he protects the VT?

[JasonWazza]

Every night, the VTs submit the name of a player. If the player named the most is scum, they are shot.

BB is scum inclusive of the serial killer in this case?

I feel like Mafia would probably be a little boned if it is.

I also think that given the setup you need to have plurality lynches (you can easily just agree to no lynch after SK is dead and vote for a certain Member of the town.)

[JasonWazza]

Every night, the VTs submit the name of a player. If the player named the most is scum, they are shot.

BB is scum inclusive of the serial killer in this case?

I feel like Mafia would probably be a little boned if it is.

I also think that given the setup you need to have plurality lynches (you can easily just agree to no lynch after SK is dead and vote for a certain Member of the town.)

It is inclusive of SK, why does that bone mafia?

Yeah I'll add must lynch.

No kill and a possible night kill for Town (the voting system) realistically means that an SK dead D1 is a terrible thing for mafia.

The best chance they would have at that point is a lucky protect to "confirm" them

[JasonWazza]

I'm not one for balancing things, but you might run into an issue with apathy when it comes to a 14 day election phase. Every day the town isn't scumhunting is another day where town isn't playing, and it makes people lose interest, especially if you're electing someone every day.

One month for a single game day

is a huge time commitment.

I think you have it wrong, the king has the leftover time + 72 hours to select, not an extra 14 days (so it's still only half a month)

My question is, what motivation does the mafia have to kill a king if a new one is elected each day (when doing so will only bring out a confirmed town)

[JasonWazza]

My question is, what motivation does the mafia have to kill a king if a new one is elected each day (when doing so will only bring out a confirmed town)

To get rid of the confirmed town really. Sure it means they have no idea what is going on with respect to who will be controlling a kill, but that could be a good or bad thing.

Except they aren't really confirmed unless they make that kill, that's my problem with it, kill them when they claim or counterclaim them would be a lot better.

[JasonWazza]

Ok so this is gonna be my longer thoughts on the kingmaker game.

Honestly your basically playing a 9v2 mountainous game until you reach a 5v2 scenario which is where it can actually get interesting.

Fact is town best bet is to just random vote someone to be king (cause there is no point in actually caring who is king), and then to pick someone to lynch for the rest of the day, both scum and town have no reason to go against town majority early on, therefore the king actually makes no difference.

Scum play a normal game with the one exception (this is in my mind) in that you avoid killing the king and go for your second kill priority assuming the king is the first until the successor is actually dead, either that, or kill the king N1 if you really don't want the successor around cause i don't even know why.

Now to why it gets interesting at 5v2, this is the point that if scum get voted to king, their best bet is to take out a townie, "it's not LYLO" i hear you say, but that is exactly the point.

You bring it down to a 3v2 where there is one confirmed scum, if the other scum gets voted into the king in the next two days, scum wins the game, and the benefit is, if ONE townie fucks up, you have yourself and your scum partner (who should be doing no content now) to vote you for the win.

[JasonWazza]

Which is why it would be the next step.

[JasonWazza]

Yeah generally we can juggle 2 quite easily.

Though honestly i think newbies should be heading to micros after the newbie rather then anything else, but that's my opinion.

[JasonWazza]

I see that one ending quickly simply because Mafia babysitter is best targeting the goon unless they believe that are a night shot, meaning if they are the scum team is gone.

[JasonWazza]

I believe for this forum 40% is ideal for a town win.

[JasonWazza]

Spoiler: Numbers (these are ugly)

Room 1:
A1 getting lynched 33%
A2 getting lynched 33%
A3 getting lynched 33%

Room 2:
B1 getting lynched 33%
B2 getting lynched 33%
B3 getting lynched 33%

A1+B1 lynch = win 11%
A1 lynched B1 safe/B1 lynched A1 safe = 44% next day scenario 1
Both safe = 44% Next day scenario 2

Scenario 1:
A1 lynched, A2 Vengekilled, A3 confirmed, B2 lynched
Win= 50%
(22% EV)

Scenario 2:
Both bad lynches, agreed Vig 50%
Confirmed town so lynch is 50%
Win= 25%
(11% EV)

Should be a 44% EV if i'm not mistaken, i think the mistake was going for the 33% lynch on the Scenario 2 and forgetting the confirmed.

[JasonWazza]

no as in there are 6 of chocolate and 6 of vanilla

[JasonWazza]

Is the person who receives the virus notified?

But yeah seems like an iffy setup, Joker is basically a really shitty survivor (he eventually gets auto-confirmed as joker.) that honestly neither town nor scum want around.

[JasonWazza]

Neither team actually want's him

because

his random.

Unless scum are certain that they won't be picked for a package (there's 3 of the damn things so unlikely) you want him down.

Town don't want kills going off when it could easily be 2 townies going down a day (1 N1, 2 N2.)

He is quite literally the survivor no one want's around.

[JasonWazza]

So Is this a workable concept?

And yes, people who receives parcels will be notified what they received.

Then town might be the only ones that honestly want the Joker around, because the Poison can be used as a second lynch (Person with poison claims, town votes to save or not save, if they aren't saved (scum would have the only slight motive to do this) then joker claims and says who had the heal)

[JasonWazza]

joker doesn't know who got the parcels, though.

Simple, Someone dies (bomb), someone claims poison, his third parcel is the heal.

[JasonWazza]

Must have missed that, yeah then that's pretty shit if he can't even control it.

[JasonWazza]

Town: 59.69% Win chances

Which according to the calculator is them picking 10% better then random.

Essentially it's an 8v3 nightless (3 venge kills all taken out as these are certain to happen)

An 8v3 for popcorn is a weaker mafia and a stronger town then your generally given, and even with the misplacing of the gun it is probably a lot more town sided then popcorn.

And because the gun is always on the most scummy person anyway it's not like a townie person will get the gun to kill themselves on the vengeful mafia.

[JasonWazza]

Mafia will have Day Talk

Why?

[JasonWazza]

Question, who wins if everyone dies? (vengeful is killed by townie as the last mafia member and the last town member.)

[JasonWazza]

OK so apparently i played a different popcorn mafia (this one) and wasn't aware that voting was a thing.

[JasonWazza]

You tell the gunbearer to quit being a bitch and shoot his gun?

[JasonWazza]

No idea on balance.

Not sure this is something you can balance.

[JasonWazza]

Anyone have a breaking strategy?

If everyone chooses vig, when does the day end?

I think it can be broken like Texas Justice if everyone just chooses vig.

If everyone chooses vig, Mafia wins by them controlling half the vote. Because half of zero is zero. So town has to be careful.

What? It's only one lynch, why would that lose town the game??

To keep it from being broken that way?

Tracker could end up revealing the cop, however here's a better change.

Paranoia:

2 Mafia Goons

1 Town Tracker
1 Town Cop
1 Town Death Stalker
4 Vanilla Townies

• Mafia have a pre-game permanent tailor. (Swap what someone shows up on investigation by cop)
  
• Mafia have venge-kill on first mafia lynch.
  
• Death Stalker appears to self as Vanilla Townie, they are however always tracked to whoever is NK'ed by the mafia.
  
• Death Stalker flips as "Death Stalker".

There's no reason not to just make one of them investigation immune cause it's a small likelihood of getting the other town PR (tracker) meaning you have a pretty useless cop, and a tracker that can only really confirm the cop (until the deathstalker is down).

[JasonWazza]

Kansas City

9 Vanilla Townies
1 Cop

3 Mafia Goons

Special mechanic

: Cop gets an investigation result on a random Vanilla Townie prior to the game starting.
Night-talk only.

Let Mafia select who the Cop gets the result on. Have them select two players so that if one is the cop the

other one is confirmed town instead.

That'd be my advice, less randomness. A game with a confirmed town zMuffin is very different from a game with a confirmed town new player who doesn't know what they're doing.

That luck finding a cop though.

[JasonWazza]

Confirmation seems pretty damned broken imo. You could have two confirmed towns day 2, and four confirmed towns day 3. Ridic.

hoooooowww? There can only ever be one successful confirmation per night.

Cop invest N0

For day 3 you claim and out all the innocents and you have 4 confirmed towns.

[JasonWazza]

Part of the point of the setup is that players targeting scum can't be killed, which should be an advatage to stronger townies, but I agree that's probably not enough to balance the setup. Giving town two lynches on even days might do the trick.

The problem then becomes this.

Town's best bet is to target the scummiest player.

Therefore Scum's best bet is to target the Scummiest townie, as they are likely to hit several townies.

[JasonWazza]

Proceed with caution:

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Goon

Hider
Universal Backup
Ascetic
4 Vanilla Townies

• Daystart.
  
• Universal Backup can inherit the town Ascetic.
  
• Mafia get a vengekill on the first death of one of their faction.

This one first, why is it that Mafia get a vengekill?

That turns the game into LYLO day 2 (5v2, goes to a 3v2, meaning the game is over because the mafia vengekill plus the faction kill is game over.)

And no the hider isn't a good counter to this, 1 person who can possibly avoid the kill, but is also likely to turn someone into a double kill, and has a 2/9 chance of failing his hide (Assumedly given how an Ascetic works.)

Whodunnit:

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Tracker
Mafia Goon

Jailkeeper
Fruit-Vendor
Ascetic
7 Vanilla Townies

• Daystart
  
• Ascetics can block fruit-vendor.
  
• Players are notified their action was blocked if it was.

10v3 with essentially no power roles (you have a JK that makes a legitimate difference, otherwise you have 2 named townies.)

As a note, does the JK targeting a Ascetic give him a notification?

The godfather of chaos set-ups

Vanguard OPEN JOAT (1)
OPEN JOAT (1)
Visitors (4)

Vanguard OPEN JOAT (1)
OPEN JOAT (1)

Arsonist (1)

(from Titus's "Don't trust the Cops" set-up)

Open JOAT is an ability that can use any conventional role a night
The vanguard is a role which protects all who target it, but also gets the power of whomever targetted the slot for that night. In this game, the vanguard role simply gets an extra JOAT shot each time it is targeted.

"can use any conventional role" Mafia used Vigilante, they now have 3 kills a night.

As a note, it seems logistical that town would either use Cop or use Watcher.

[JasonWazza]

If the scum just simply dodge every day, is there any way to get rid of them?

If multiple people shoot them. They can only use one action per day, sans the quickfoot.

Quickfoot might be a bit broken though. Might be cleaner just to get rid of him.

Quickfoot isn't broken unless he can privately dodge, as if he dodge's twice in thread, then he is clearly the quickfoot.

(This is assuming it's "his turn" when he is shot at)

If he can dodge in private and it works like a sabotaged gun, then he'd be fairly well hidden.

However after a certain point, this game becomes unwinnable.

First off assuming the quickfoot doesn't die Mafia have to be winning at 5 players (quickshot can shoot twice, meaning he is essentially a 5th person, and 5v5 becomes shoot and dodge on both sides.)

And also it's so much easier for town to be killed then it is for Mafia to be killed (because Mafia submit the list, they more or less have a huge amount of control over who actually gets to shoot.)

I feel like this is fairly scum sided.

[JasonWazza]

Well lets assume this is Night 1, your mafia, you lynched a townie, nothing claimed, and you have a 1-shot Ascetic.

You now run into the problem of not knowing if the setup is a Tracker/RB or a Watcher, and don't know which way to actually vary your kills up (which happens until the watcher gets a result or dies)

Probably the best way to run it is to have the Ascetic use their ability N1 and make a kill on the most townie person, and risk getting caught by the watcher (because the watcher watches said townie person) as you'd be able to block both the RB and the Tracker with the Ascetic, and if caught your just giving in a named goon.

Which of course brings it down to a 1:4 with the Watcher dead on Day 3.

Honestly the only setups i would want to run into are the ninja ones because at least you know what sort of style you have to play for.

[JasonWazza]

2 ideas for micros:

You make the rules mafia

[1] mafia
[2] mafia 1-shot extra warning
[3] town 1-shot warning remover
[4] town 1-shot warning remover
[5] town rule investigator

// finds out which custom rule belongs to target player

[6] town vanilla
[7] town vanilla
[8] town vanilla
[9] town vanilla

Pre-game, players must add an additional rule to my general ruleset. I'm not going to look for any infractions of the custom rules, I'll leave that up to the players. Any custom rule infractions gives you one warning point, 3 warning and you're modkilled. I'd like to see example of what you'd come up with as rules, at the moment the only requirement I have is that they're indiscriminatory, but I'm also not fond of overly restrictive post restrictions. Since they're sent in pre-game, there's no use in making them anti-town or anti-mafia. As you can see, the actual set-up is pretty basic. Voting and mafia abilities as usual.

Secret Santa mafia

[1] 1-shot cop
[2] 1-shot doctor
[3] 1-shot follower
[4] 1-shot roleblocker
[5] 1-shot secret santa investigator

// finds out who gave what to target player

[6] 1-shot 1-shot tracker
[7] 1-shot fruit vendor
[8] 1-shot fruit vendor
[9] 1-shot fruit vendor

Above is not the role distribution, but the pool of abilities available to give away. During the dayphase, players can request one of them to give away to target player. During the nightphase, people can use the given abilities (if any). There's no restriction to how many a player can receive or use. With each death, the top ability becomes unavailable (so for example, with 5 players left, there's only the secret santa investigator, the tracker, and 3 fruit vendors). I'm still considering the actual available abilities, and the order in which they disappear.

I'd also appreciate links to similar games.

so for the first one, am i right in assuming that the rules you make are before you even get a role?

Because in that case just make a bunch of your own rules, there's no real point (Also Rule investigator would be a named townie that can call you an asshole for a rule.)

For Secret Santa, can mafia request the abilities as well?

Because it seems wise to send your fellow mafia a Roleblocker, and there are also likely to be multiple cops N1 which is probably way too strong (possibly make it a 2 shot cop with one investigation that will be sane and one that will be insane, to make the game not just instantly broken by giving the person below you on the list a Cop ability and having them also investigate said person below you.)

[JasonWazza]

so for the first one, am i right in assuming that the rules you make are before you even get a role?

Because in that case just make a bunch of your own rules, there's no real point (Also Rule investigator would be a named townie that can call you an asshole for a rule.)

No point.. except for

fun

? Maybe? Also, I forgot to clarify that the rules disappear with the death of the corresponding player.

Then that would make the Rule investigator even worse, because the rules can't be linked to an alignment, and you just become a reason to policy lynch people depending on their rules, which would then make it more likely for people to make the rules more tame.

Secret Santa needs some more work, as I was thinking of other issues after posting, but:
Yes, Mafia may request abilities like everyone else. But maybe I wasn't clear, but there's only one of each ability available. Somewhere in the gamethread I'd post and update the list of available abilities, and I'll ask players to request something else if their request has already been taken.
As it is now, the cop ability is only available to one player, and only before the first death, so it's most likely not available at all assuming there's a day 1 lynch. That's one of the issues I'll have to think about. So hardly way too strong.
And of course the roleblocker will be interesting to the mafia, but they'll have to be the first to request it. And the secret santa investigator poses a risk to this strategy.

But one of the things I was thinking, is to make it more like an actual secret santa, with randomly distributing the secret santa's myself at the start of the dayphase, so everyone only has one secret santa (but on the other hand is guaranteed to have one). This would make the fruit vendors somewhat more useful, as at the moment they merely serve as indicators that I don't want any actual useful abilities when it's down to 3 players.

edit:

Oh and I don't know why I call everything 1-shot.. I forgot to clarify everything

has

to be used on the night you get it, or you forgo the option to use it. You can't "save up" abilities.

So wait, you can't have the ability given out during the day and have it useable on that night considering they were alive that day because of a lynch?

Then what would be the interaction with someone dying that night, would that disable the cop before it works?

And logistically you could probably just all agree to give all the abilities to the most townie person, except the doctor, give that to someone else, and have the doctor protect the person who got all the other abilities (So in other words, A gives Doctor away to B, everyone else gives Abilities to A) possibly also giving the Santa investigator to someone if someone gives the doctor to the person with all the abilities because they are basically confirmed to be scum most likely.

[JasonWazza]

Mail Mafia

Rolelist:

Town PR
Town PR/Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town

Mafia PR
Mafia Goon

Mechanism:

The difference is that users can PM one message to the moderator per IRL day (if the dayphase has 14 days, the user can send up to 14 messages, 1 each IRL day).
At the end of an IRL day, the moderator will post all messages in the thread.

Since your mostly looking at this mechanism, since your not telling us the PR's or anything.

My main question is are the messages anonymous?

Would they have a tag to be able to identify that they are different players (EG. one message comes from A, another from B)

Basically the mechanic basically means shit all if it's not anonymous (as you may as well just say the message in the thread) however if it is, then it just gives a way for PR's to claim extremely safely (claim in your first message to the mod, provide results after each night)

There is basically no reason to use it outside of that sort of thing (why do you need these messages when you can just say things in thread?)

[JasonWazza]

Neither Neighborizer should really actually use their ability because they are 50/50 scum, and the person neighborized should just claim the neighborizer.

[JasonWazza]

I feel like the power is mostly based on the RNG and what your RNGing up to for nights.

eg. Nights 1-5 are randomized for all roles, the Night 4-5 PR's are relatively underpowered, and then Night 1's tend to be really strong.

Also due to mafia not having a proper night kill it's very possible there is no mafia aligned kill till a few nights in which also limits info.

[JasonWazza]

Neither Neighborizer should really actually use their ability because they are 50/50 scum, and the person neighborized should just claim the neighborizer.

Then i guess it turns into a mountainous with an uninformed scum team?

Which is as CallForJudgement said, basically not mafia (i'd actually not read the part of the mafia not knowing each other when i posted).

Dubious Idea Mafia

• 8 Town 1-Shot Day Vigilantes
  
• 3 Mafia 1-Shot Day Vigilantes
  
• If a player is lynched and still has their shot left, they can vengekill a player with it if they like (although they must make the decision very soon after the lynch, it can't be saved for later)
  
• Daykills are made privately via PM to the moderator, and it's not public who made them
  
• Attempts by people who have already been daykilled to kill people fail, even if the moderator hasn't been online to flip them yet
  
• Nightless

Numbers are flexible and I have no idea whether they're in the right place or not at the moment (it should be close though). This is a Bad Idea variant, or viewed another way, a Texas Justice variant. I can't see a way to break it due to the fact that actions happen in sequence rather than being simultaneous.

You can basically view this as a 5v3 due to the fact that really, Mafia can just shoot off the bat and go random to make them have the best chances.

But the 5 all do have a 1 shot day kill, but in a town with 3 random townies dead, i'm inclined to think that's not a good thing.

EDIT: Just thinking on how that would work.
Mislynch (don't vengekill) LYLO
Then every mislynch after that the townie has to manage to hit a scum.

[JasonWazza]

Honestly i think what you aim to do, is only reveal your most scum where ever possible, and once you lynch the first scum, instantly no lynch, as then you give scum less info on who to keep alive in the scenario.

Though that runs into other problems, and is mostly a best case scenario sort of thing.

EDIT: Also question, if the deadline is what forces a no lynch, what is your plan there?

Cause i feel like that almost breaks the spirit of what your trying to achieve with this setup.

[JasonWazza]

I thought about that but decided that there wasn't much of a reason not to leave it up to the moderator. It doesn't have a balance effect, just an effect on town activity, so it falls into the realm of moderator discretion.

I'll explain why i asked then, because it kinda forces an anti-fun game mechanic.

Basically the best case for scum is trying to force out the no-lynch as early as possible to either get rid of the scummy person OR get rid of the person with the least/best tells.

So the scum would try and force a no-lynch on Day 1 in this case, but that kinda ruins the spirit and makes it kinda anti-fun for the scum that has to actually die off for this to work.

[JasonWazza]

I don't know if that will ever really have a balance because of the non-knowledge of PR's, Fun maybe but balanced is iffy.

Realistic night 1 is 13 members, and 6 PR's.

Town;
Cop can instantly identify himself because he gets a result.
Vig can possibly identify himself if he gets lucky and misses the 3 protection roles and doesn't hit his target, which may make him assume he is the protective role.
Doc and JK will know their target didn't die but won't know if they are able to only protect or able to protect and roleblock.

Mafia;
Assuming they don't hit a Protection target, each PR is identifiable instantly.

P-Edit: what CfJ said.

[JasonWazza]

1. Town Lover (Knows partner)
6. Deathproof Mafia Lover (Doesn't know partner)
1. The Lovers are paired and the pairing is not random: Deathproof+No Modifier is the first pair

Town plain lover claims D1, takes the lynch

You then bring it down to a 7/2 or a 6/2

I don't see any real reason not to, then play it like a regular game of mafia really.

I don't feel the lover interactions make that much of an impact on the game play, they just make the 9/3 into an early 7/2 by game mechanic.

[JasonWazza]

The main thing you have to change is the fact that only one Lover actually knows his partner, either all of them should know, or none of them, anything else can too easily give away a role.

Not revealing the modifier's just means that 3 will think they are town lovers, but 1 will know a partner.

[JasonWazza]

I don't see why you would bother with actually targeting anything but townies in that setup, because the public cop has to assume he might be hitting scum or town when he hits scum, but knows who the townies are.

And when the public cop claims it likely just comes out as a counter claim of cops situation anyway.

And in that case this turns more into a game of town hunting rather then scum hunting.

If you pick the scum to broadcast as mafia, your just playing russian roulette because, assuming the PC isn't actually announced as the PC, you have no way of actually knowing if your going to get checked, and if you do end up getting caught, your confirmed guilty right then and there.

[JasonWazza]

But again if your going for mixed results as mafia, your playing Russian Roulette with yourself.

You'd be better off killing off likely cop targets.

[JasonWazza]

I wouldn't say town power is the problem, more Mafia's ability to stop from being steamrolled is the problem.

They need to not only survive 4 lynches (3 reaches LYLO) but eliminate a cop (or at least have killed some of his innocent results that he is likely to get, cause they will bite you in the ass)

There's only so much Mafia can do in this.

[JasonWazza]

Snip

This way it seems town sided if different factions, and scum sided if the same faction.

If they accidently kill the same townie, they instantly know that either

A) they are opposing factions (known by the left member)
B) Know one partner of the other team, and need to switch killing member to try and give the most info.

In scenario A, both scum teams have basically fucked each other, but now know that they are both different, town has no knowledge that they shot each other (but can probably assume)

In Scenario B, your able to basically promote yourselves to a 4 man scum team, by making 2 smart kills on obvious targets.

[JasonWazza]

but with no day talk only one member of each scum group will know they are they same until the next night. also the two different factions have no way of knowing.

ALSO what if when they are the same faction there is only one kill, who ever sends it in first.

With no day talk, it doesn't matter, both teams know that there was one kill, and that means that they know for certain that one of each team know the other team and can play with that knowledge.

and if there is one kill if the same faction, it will become obvious extremely quickly to both the scum faction and the town faction, that there is 1 scum team, and if the finder mechanic still exists, it can be played around as you will know for certain.

[JasonWazza]

That setup is kinda barely mafia as it is, and feels like it should be something played in a face to face/Marathon sort of setup more than a Mafia setup.

In fact i found the micro i was in that was like this but with actual mafia knowledge

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24594

Essentially the same but the GF knows the other member in that.

[JasonWazza]

@Heurisitcally_alone - without having done any calculations it strikes me that there is a lot of room for PoE by having everyone say who they'll give a gun to, and people saying how many guns they got. There is probably an optimal strategy to it. Might need to hammer out what that strategy is to see how balanced the set up is.

I'm assuming it's they can't, but just checking, can a gunslinger give a gun to themselves?

I love the theming, but it strikes me as it might get changed a lot before it's balanced.

Simple, Give a gun to the person below you on the player list, 3 people won't get guns, the person above them is a mafia member.

EDIT: And yes all 3 mafia members should have guns (optimally), however that is countered by the 3 townies with guns.

Order of events:
D1: NL
N1: guns to person below
D2: let's assume all mafia are on at the deadline and shoot all the townies with guns, we are now at a 3v3, but mafia don't control a majority of the vote, so the game should go to another night with a no lynch.
N2: townies know who to give guns to.
D3: GG.

[JasonWazza]

Is there any reason for the mafia to not shoot the witness each night?

Simply to stop the serial killer.

[JasonWazza]

Would it even be logically possible to get to the 3:1 ending without ever hitting the All or No scum ending?

I feel at that point, you probably haven't thought enough about the blocks.

[JasonWazza]

During day start, two players may

touch

if

both

agrees.

So is this only possible at day start (as in 24 hours sort of thing) or is it all day and you misworded?

[JasonWazza]

The best idea is to town hunt because of the need for only 5 touches, i'm sure there would be a way to break it by either forming blocks (a 4 man town block is an instant win for town a 3 man block is a win for town if your certain they are all town), or touching in a specific order.

[JasonWazza]

that is 5 town touching each other. 5C2 = 10

My bad i read this as 5 touches not 5 town doing a circle.

[JasonWazza]

I was considering to make the game with night kill, but I realized that if they decided to make it night kill, they can intentionally kill the health player to satisfy "kill all sick player to win"

Make it so kills only work on sick players?

[JasonWazza]

As a thought, when a townie dies, is it announced whether they are healthy or sick?

[JasonWazza]

I'd be tempted to try a massclaim in that setup, assuming the townies know which parity they are. Also assuming Vig is full BP, I suspect he should always claim Odd... that way if the scum want to try to kill him night 1, they have to use the Strong Man shot (if Vig claims Even, they can take a normal shot first and then use the Strong Man if it fails). Not totally sure how scum should claim, but I'll bet we can find a EV >50% in all cases. Unlimited BP is really strong, but I'm not sure making the Vig 1-shot BP is much better?

I was thinking this, my problem with it is, that the strongman's only use at that point, is to kill the vig, and what it means for town is that the vig's best bet is to shoot someone on the on night of the BP claim.

Not to mention, pretty sure Vig should hold his shot until his either claimed or there is a no kill that night, as his probably fairly safe all things considered.

[JasonWazza]

Strongman someone N1, then you just shoot someone twice if they don't die.

Worst case scenario then is lynching a Odd night BP townie, because that means the game can end that night (assuming vig+mafia both shoot a different Even night).

While stopping the MC, it also screws the town over i think.

In fact i think MC is the best case scenario for both alignments.

[JasonWazza]

First, that's not Mafia.

Second, it's broken (100% town EV). BP townie claims. (If they're counterclaimed, you lynch both claims and dayvig the survivor. Or dayvig them both, either works.) Assuming no counterclaims, dayvig claims (and counterclaims, if necessary, with a bullet), then you lynch every unclaimed player twice. Anyone who survives must be the Survivor and so gets dayvigged, and there's no chance of town losing as there are at least two townies (the BP townie and the dayvig) alive, so you have to end up lynching the Survivor eventually.

It's not brokem

If the Dayvig runs out of shots, town autoloses.

Still, you could get rid of the BP and make it vanilla if that makes it better.

Finally, even though I called it survivor here, I could very well just call it a Mafia Goon in a nightless game and then it would be considered mafia.

DAY VIG DOESN'T SHOOT UNTIL SOMEONE LIVES THROUGH 2 LYNCHES.

You gave the survivor a confirmed way to be given away.

[JasonWazza]

2 Mafia Lynchers

6 1 Shot Vigs

Shoot the person under you, only mafia win case is if they are one after another on the player list, and that's only assuming that Mafia win if they are 1:1

[JasonWazza]

Cops Trigger Role is not told they are Cop trigger. Upon death, this role shows up as Citizen.

This is terrible in my mind, not the part where they aren't told, but the part where no one knows that they have died, it makes the cops virtually useless because it's basically impossible to work out what sanity they are and whether they switch unless someone is copping the same target multiple times.

[JasonWazza]

Fact is due to the fact that lynches occur, the game isn't going to be as simple as "Piece it together" at best, you work out your sanity for one night, but that doesn't confirm any other night's alignment checks.

EG. Your N2 check is on a dead townie and is guilty, therefore you know that on N2 you were insane, however, you don't know if you were Sane or Insane on N1, or N3 because you could have started as either and could be either the next day.

[JasonWazza]

I mean i don't think an SK should ever have a 25% EV, let alone town only having a 33% EV.

[JasonWazza]

1. What happens if everyone alive avoids (EG. N1)?
2. Can mafia kill themselves?
3. Does the 1-shot doctor rule include the Mafia goons?
4. Can the Mafia do 2 actions in a night? (IE. Submit the list with them second, and doctor themself in the case that first avoids.)

[JasonWazza]

Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)

Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)

[JasonWazza]

Well other than the fact that you can run out of shots (assuming the winner is always the person who starts it.)

Also i don't think turning the mafia sided people into tree stumps is ever all that fun (their job basically becomes to derail everything)

Thanks!

So, alternative theory...

All players are (non-xshot) gladiators except one townie that is the governor.

And yes, turning the scum into stumps along with town is what would give it the Colosseum atmosphere. Savage and chaotic.

Gladiators need a crowd, after all.

Perhaps a post restriction of 1-line per post, and 3 posts per (r/l) day? That way they could goad or coach, but not flood the game.

It would have to be posts per day or something similar, because "1-line post" just means "spam 1-line posts to make it harder for town"

It's just generally only a good thing on townies.

[JasonWazza]

This brings up the right opportunity to ask this (I think) with 2:8, 6 is required for lynch, which means more Townies need to be on a Scum lynch (if Scum are not bussing). How does/does this have an impact on things at all?

Depends on if you mean in an EV respect or what you mean.