Brexit

[springlullaby]

Lol yeah, right.

[zoraster]

Chilling don't you think, when governing bodies from the so called free world think referendums are their ennemies and would actively maneuver to quash them in the bud.

What does the west has to sell to the rest of the world beside the democratic ideal and freedom?

Not really, no.

[springlullaby]

Disheartening then, perhaps? At least?

BTW, even if I'm pro-europe, I think the EU in its current manifestation has a very big lot of room for improvement.
In regard to the democratic process for exemple, most rich european countries are used to direct elections. But right now, while the nations have handed over legislative power to the EU in a number of domains, there is zero effort to engage more involvement and scrutiny from the general populace. The EU governing bodies feel like distant back kitchens that would like to remain this way. Hence the understandable claim about sovereignty.

There is also a terrible lack of cultural/ideological integration, not only because of existing differences, but due to and emphasized by the mercantile priorities of the project. If you were to ask an 'european' the question 'what europe is about?', they will be very hard pressed to come up with an answer beside 'free trade'. That just doesn't foster any sentiment of adhesion.

[zoraster]

I don't think you have to believe the EU is perfect, democratic or even very good to realize that leaving was a dumb, dumb decision that hurts the very people who voted for it because of disinformation and false promises brought on by malfeasance of politicians who thought they could use something like this as a political pawn to shore up their right flank.

If you're sitting there as Germany or France and you don't particularly want the EU to unravel, you need to make sure that people don't think they can get just as good a deal outside of the EU as within in. And you can point to sovereignty and democracy, but the countries within the EU also have those things and can and should retain the right to act as they think prudent for their own interests if the countries they're dealing with won't engage with them on their terms -- in this case favorable special terms given to the UK.

In other words, there is a mechanism with which countries can withdraw in Article 50. You get to negotiate the terms of your removal, but if other countries can afford to they get to shrug their shoulders at your market adjustment and wipe their hands of you.

[Thestatusquo]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... -leave-it/

"What is the EU?"

...

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

[mykonian]

idk. It's appealing to think: "Well, we just tell Brussels we don't need their laws, we'll do with a few less immigrants. Then we renegotiate some trade agreements and it won't be so good but then what did I ever see of that? We can cut the middleman if we just get the subsidies from London in stead of through Brussels".

But then you wake up, the pound has dropped off a cliff, Scotland is seriously thinking about leaving again and the prime minister has quit. Suddenly it's not "going to be alright" and what is happening is rather confusing. Can't exactly begrudge people for trying to figure out what's coming next, but yes, wished they had done that beforehand

[SleepyKrew]

CDB move to Canada

[springlullaby]

I don't think you have to believe the EU is perfect, democratic or even very good to realize that leaving was a dumb, dumb decision that hurts the very people who voted for it because of disinformation and false promises brought on by malfeasance of politicians who thought they could use something like this as a political pawn to shore up their right flank.

That's quite true, but perhaps sovereignty is worth it in their mind.
I mean, if you ask a russian guy or a chinese if they regret staying communist back then (even if individual choice wasn't involved to the least), the answer will probably be no.

I don't think the UK's prospects are quite as dire as some of the media are making them out to be right now. The US and the EU both have interest in keeping the UK in the loop if they don't want it to come under the russian/asian/arabian spheres of influence. And there is the strong internal, political pressure the EU is facing. I don't think it is realistic to expect democratic nations to swallow the one and only way of the EU pill for much longer. In the words of Machiavelli, you need to rule by fear and by love. The EU has done very little of the latter up until now. If it doesn't reform, it will fail, and in that sense, Brexit is a good thing for the EU.

And then I don't think it is realistic to expect corporations to abandon en masse either the 9th largest economy by GPD or the EU sans UK. Where would they go to? China? Ha. Good luck with protectionism over there.

Anyway, exciting times.

ps I think this article sum it up nicely http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/upsho ... later.html

[Nexus]

CDB move to Canada

rude

[SleepyKrew]

Nexus move to Canada

[mykonian]

heh, funny that you should say that. If you've had the Norwegian option (part of the market, free labour movement, no political influence), the swiss (part of the market, no political influence), next option is the Canada one. A special set of trade agreements between a foreign country and the EU (there's a small set of nations like that, but Canada was the first). That should be a baseline goal of the Brits to make in the two years that they move away from the EU, because otherwise they leave with no special connection at all, while they were very connected to the European market.

I'm with springlullaby in a way. The UK had a pretty good deal, which they are going to lose. Europe has nothing to gain from ruining the Brits and I don't believe it takes much to make the Brits be worse off. After that I suspect the bigger issue is what the Brits could get through parliament. It won't be popular politically, unless there are some changes, to once again pay money to Brussels or still accept the Polish labourers coming in, which really limits the options.

[AniX]

Democracy isn't valuable in its own right. Democracy is valuable because we have concluded that it is the best way to guarantee the rights of people.

For the EU to encourage (by lack of punishment) countries to think referendums are a good idea (and hurt their populations) just to uphold some vague democratic ideal is like selling one's car to buy gasoline.

[springlullaby]

Hurt their population, how?
The democratic deal is not there to guarantee anything but the usurpation of power from the masse by the few. That's what rights of the people means.
There is nothing vague about the democratic ideal. What is this misplaced cynicism and arrogance.
Is it practical to consult each individual on all topics? No. But if you think the masse is ignorant, you can only blame the elite for not doing their job at educating it.

And the Brexit situation was more of a choice between 'selling your car and your gazoline' or 'selling your car and your gazoline anyway'. Find the stronger incentive behind that.

[Katsuki]

SlappyKrew move to Canada.

[mykonian]

But if you think the masse is ignorant, you can only blame the elite for not doing their job at educating it.

That takes someone special and you know it. This is an unfair statement.

[SleepyKrew]

SlappyKrew move to Canada.

If the US leaves the European Union, sure.

[springlullaby]

But if you think the masse is ignorant, you can only blame the elite for not doing their job at educating it.

That takes someone special and you know it. This is an unfair statement.

Well, stupid and ignorant people exist. But you have to question the competitive advantage of intelligence and education if intelligent and educated people can't successfully make stupid and ignorant people do their biding.

[Bella]

Our system is not direct democracy for a reason. Some issues are too nuanced and complex for people who are not experts in the relevant field and do not have the time to be completely informed about the issue to make decisions that have such a dramatic effect on the country. Instead, we elect people to do the specific job of being informed and if not being experts, to take advice on people whose job is to know all the nooks and crannies of knowledge about a subject so that they can make good decisions on our behalf. Of the elected representatives of Great Britain, the people chosen to be informed and make the decisions on the people's behalf, overwhelmingly supported remain. By putting it to a referendum, Cameron let the Murdoch media machine and a bunch of dishonest, sleazy former journalists (Johnson and Gove, both of whom lost jobs as journalists for lying to their readers) did what all extremist groups do, try and recruit people to their cause by blaming all their problems on a bogeyman, the immigrant, and used that to get the result they wanted.

"I could not dig; I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
Now all my lies are proved untrue
And I must face the men I slew.
What tale shall serve me here among
Mine angry and defrauded young?" - Rudyard Kipling

[AniX]

Hurt their population, how?
The democratic deal is not there to guarantee anything but the usurpation of power from the masse by the few. That's what rights of the people means.
There is nothing vague about the democratic ideal. What is this misplaced cynicism and arrogance.
Is it practical to consult each individual on all topics? No.

But if you think the masse is ignorant, you can only blame the elite for not doing their job at educating it.

And the Brexit situation was more of a choice between 'selling your car and your gazoline' or 'selling your car and your gazoline anyway'. Find the stronger incentive behind that.

It is very difficult to educate self-interest/selfishness out of someone.

[AniX]

But if you think the masse is ignorant, you can only blame the elite for not doing their job at educating it.

That takes someone special and you know it. This is an unfair statement.

Well, stupid and ignorant people exist. But you have to question the competitive advantage of intelligence and education if intelligent and educated people can't successfully make stupid and ignorant people do their biding.

You assume all intelligent and educated people are on the same side.

[ChannelDelibird]

Making first, tentative investigations into jobs on the continent. But still kind of want to wait to see if anyone actually pushes the button on Article 50.

[mykonian]

I wouldn't doubt that, but the extent this changes life might be limited. You may be fine cdb, depending on what they arrange during those 2 years.

[ChannelDelibird]

It's the principle of the thing as much as anything. Britain is turning into something really quite horrible on a lot of fronts, and the symbology of this decision is very possibly the final straw for me.

[Majiffy]

Shellshocked and miserable and not even really able to English about this at the moment.

The BBC coverage is OK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news

*hug*

You probably don't want to be at MR, strong for leave there.

[Majiffy]

Can someone explain why they did this and what it means

Why they did this:

Spoiler:

What it means:
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... yxD59VO3Nb

Yeah but look at all those attractive migrants I mean they got the pictures right there next to the headlines