Brexit
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Thestatusquo He/HimShea
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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That's because your have seen very little, I'm afraid.In post 100, Thestatusquo wrote:Wait, did someone seriously just cite Machiavelli in a discussion of modern government? While making an argument about democracy? Now I've seen everything.
How dare JJ Rousseau (the philosopher, not the rapper) argue that Machiavelli was a republican (republican in the context of the Florentine Republic - sigh).
ps: alright, I don't really know that a rapper called JJ Rousseau actually exists.- Majiffy
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There's a rapper named Machiavelli too but I think it's spelled alternatively.Only playing in games at personal moderator and/or 50%+ playerlist request.
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Svenskt Stål (23:38) majiffy, worst mod on ms? we talk to a surviving victim of his game- Majiffy
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The Prince was satire, Machiavelli was a proponent of democracy and wrote numerous entries on the matter.In post 100, Thestatusquo wrote:Wait, did someone seriously just cite Machiavelli in a discussion of modern government? While making an argument about democracy? Now I've seen everything.Only playing in games at personal moderator and/or 50%+ playerlist request.
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Svenskt Stål (23:38) majiffy, worst mod on ms? we talk to a surviving victim of his game- mykonian
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Thestatusquo He/HimShea
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Thestatusquo He/HimShea
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Yeah okay Shea we'll disregard everything else he ever wrote because your personal opinion is flawless.Only playing in games at personal moderator and/or 50%+ playerlist request.
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Svenskt Stål (23:38) majiffy, worst mod on ms? we talk to a surviving victim of his game- Thestatusquo
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Thestatusquo He/HimShea
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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In post 94, AniX wrote:You assume all intelligent and educated people are on the same side.
Because you can attribute an absolute moral value to selfishness/self-interest. Because intelligent and educated people aren't self-interested. Because intelligent and educated people on the 'right side' have never failed stupid and ignorant people.In post 93, AniX wrote:It is very difficult to educate self-interest/selfishness out of someone.
A 62 yo technician votes leave because he has zero chance of finding a new job if he gets fired, and has approx 18 years of remaining life expectancy anyway.
A 24 yo graduate in marketing (with some german thrown in) vote stays because he wants larger and more long term horizons for job opportunities.
Who is self interested?
Of course, the 24 yo may find the 62 yo xenophobic, but the 62 yo may find the 24 yo naive.
The thing with the Brexit (and if it goes through) is now we'll see just to what degree the threat of job cut, austerity measures, etc prescribed by the EU under corporate pressure is rule by fear.
If corporations absolutely can't sustain their businesses in the UK if the labor doesn't get cheaper, and the investor's share doesn't get bigger, threats will be put to execution and the UK will enter into decades long recession from which it may never recover after the exit is finalized, leading to the EU benefiting from at least some of the relocated jobs.
If the threats are to some degree empty, there will be some noises and some negative repercussions, with photos of mad looking EU representatives speaking stern speech in the papers - it will last until the exit is finalized to keep the pressure during négociations. Then, when a deal is struck, the whole affair will be quietly ushered under the carpet with some last headlines emphasizing 'historical ties' and so on. And 10 years from now the younger generation of workers and voters won't even know Brexit was a thing. In meantime, current EU representatives will renegotiate with its own people because they want to stay in power.
I bet on the later.- springlullaby
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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In post 108, Thestatusquo wrote:Show me a serious scholarly article article arguing the Prince is satireJ. J. ROUSSEAU, Du contrat social, in OEuvres complètes, s.l., Gallimard, 1964, p. 409. wrote:« Leur intérêt personnel est premièrement que le Peuple soit faible, misérable,
et qu'il ne puisse jamais leur résister. J'avoue que, supposant les sujets
toujours parfaitement soumis, l'intérêt du Prince serait alors que le peuple
fût puissant, afin que cette puissance étant la sienne le rendît redoutable
à ses voisins ; mais comme cet intérêt est secondaire et subordonné,
et que les deux suppositions sont incompatibles, il est naturel que les
Princes donnent toujours la préférence à la maxime qui leur est la plus
Immédiatement utile. C'est ce que Samuel représentait fortement aux
Hébreux ; c'est ce que Machiavel a fait voir avec évidence.
(...)En feignant de donner des leçons aux Rois, il en a donné de grandes aux peuples. Le Prince de Machiavel est le livre des républicains.
(...) Machiavel était un honnête homme et un bon citoyen ; mais, attaché à la maison de Médicis, il était forcé, dans l'oppression de sa patrie, de déguiser son amour pour la liberté. Le choix seul de son exécrable héros manifeste assez son intention secrète ; et I'opposition des maximes de son livre du Prince à celles de ses Discours sur Tite-Live, et de son Histoire de Florence, démontre que ce profond politique n'a eu jusqu'ici que des lecteurs superficiels ou corrompus.»
Cue argument about JJ Rousseau in the text not being a serious scholarly article.- Thestatusquo
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Thestatusquo He/HimShea
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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Maybe you should take a course in critical thinking.In post 109, Thestatusquo wrote:Because it would go entirely against a little class I took titled 'the Prince and modern international relations'- Thestatusquo
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Thestatusquo He/HimShea
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Drench he/himcrucial waukesha voter
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he/him- crucial waukesha voter
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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French too... roll eyesIn post 112, Thestatusquo wrote:No, but perhaps English would be nice.
But I will translate for you. Be free to check up an English version of the Social Contract for inaccuracies/more elegant language.
"His personal interest is foremost that the People remain weak, miserable, and that they should never be able to resist his. I confess that, supposing the subjects to be always perfectly submitted, the Prince's interest would then for the people to be powerful, so that this power which is his may render him formidable to his neighbors; but as this interest is secondary and subordinate, and as the two suppositions are incompatible, it is natural for the Prince to always prefer the maxime which is most immediately useful to them. It is what Samuel vividly represented to the Israelite; it is what Machiavel has shown with clarity.
(...)By feigning to teach lessons to Kings, he has given great ones to the people. The Prince by Machiavelli is the book of the republicans.
(...)Machiavel was a honest man and a good citizen; but, bonded to the Medici house, he was forced, in the oppression of his motherland, to disguise his love of liberty. The very choice of his detestable hero is manifestation enough of his secret intention; and the juxtaposition of his book The Prince to his Discourse on Titus Livy, and his History of Florence, demonstrates that this profound politician has up until now only had superficial or corrupt readers."Last edited by springlullaby on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.- Thestatusquo
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Thestatusquo He/HimShea
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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... omg. You know that The Prince was banned by the Pope Clement VIII because its central figure is an avatar of Cesare Borgia, enemy of the Medicis, right?
Looks to me you took a whole course without researching the source material.Last edited by springlullaby on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.- Thestatusquo
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Oh, that's how you took your course. By superficial criticisms of the provided content without engaging in neither honest reading nor personal research. I hope your professor found you to be scum.In post 118, Thestatusquo wrote:Rousseau is saying that he thinks this thing about the Prince and then gives literally no textual reasons why that is true. That's called an appeal to authority, it's a logical fallacy and not an argument. Maybe you should take a class in critical thinking.
Right. I'm not interested in continuing a sterile exchange as you contribute nothing but empty argument found in mafia 101. This is not a mafia game, I'm sorry I hurt your ego by calling on your ignorance, it wasn't my intention. I'm sorry if I aggravated the situation by mocking your 'I took an economy class' comment: I do assure you that if you show sign of providing actually interesting conversation, I will bow to your authority.Last edited by springlullaby on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.- springlullaby
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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Noise. Please try again.In post 120, Thestatusquo wrote:Amazingly, none of that is an actual textual argument for why the Prince is satire either. Please try again.
Ok, can't resist.- Thestatusquo
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Killthestory Jack of All Trades
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European Union seems to be causing lots of controversy lately, indirectly, at least.
You have the February 2014 Revolution in Ukraine that resulted from President Viktor Yanukovych which ended up with him being impeached and fleeing the country, and the 'Maidan' protesters instituting a new form of government. Now, you have the Brexit resulting in David Cameron resigning while Britain leaves the European Union.
It's rather sad that trying to unify a continent is only ending up causing lots of problems and controversy. - Killthestory
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