Mini 1812 | Quolls | Endgame

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VOTE: Robbnva

This maybe jumping to conclusions, but I see unengaging entrances like that statistically more often from scum.

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this kills the RVS

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PSA I'm gone till monday/sunday

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I'm back early!

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VOTE: Robbnva

This maybe jumping to conclusions, but I see unengaging entrances like that statistically more often from scum.

Maybe contradiction isn't the right word but.

"Jumping to conclusions" implies making a decision without facts.

"Statistically more often from scum" implies having facts.

Both can't be correct and used in the same accusation. He/she either had facts to support their claim or doesn't and is jumping to conclusions.

Ahah.
So what I meant was I (from what I remember) have seen scum enter into games like that, because I've had a couple of times where my game ended and I looked back to ISO and they were the people I didn't notice much early because of their sneaky entrances. Not hard facts, and even saying statistically there was a stretch. In my vanity I sometimes talk as though I know what I'm doing when I don't... which is actually pretty bad since it's how I lost a recent game, I'll try to avoid doing that if I can help it.
So I was voting you regardless because from that very limited information you stuck out, but I was unsure as to how. Some people fake-rvs in which they vote strategically but don't express it right away, and some like BBT I see just strong-vote early and even exaggerate in order to draw a reaction. The truth is it's really odd phrasing a "60%" vote, that is, I think this person is slightly scummy but because of all the information I don't have it's really weak and at this point more because there isn't anything better to do. I guess people don't think in weak probability or approach it that way? It's weird because I feel like nowadays I'm almost trained into exaggerating everything because people hate indecisiveness and weak votes weak statements and no commitment. Is this overthinking it?

I like you for you saying your gut reaction would be to vote me but then not doing so as you said, even though you go into why it would qualify. The way in which you express it feels like it makes sense, the "I hate RVSing" mentality fits with you not wanting to vote lightly and in general I don't know why you'd fake this (awk?) situation as scum; also you question my logic rather than just casting shade or doubt in a non interactive way. Not that many people I think consider restraint a towntell and in general it would make sense for you to just countervote there especially as you have alright reasoning for it. I think it's more likely you thought of this and weighed it before deciding, rather than as scum you'd find a contradiction and intentionally not use it, explicitly acting this way which I don't think people usually townread because you think it'll be better this situation. I don't see why you'd be afraid of voting me either if scum unless that vote really did scare you but I doubt it, and your position isn't consistent with buddying either as you're happy encouraging the others to vote. If you gave your reasons but didn't vote AFTER people expressed interest wagoning it would've been different as encouraging wagons without committing to them personally is scum behaviour, but at the time of you saying what you did, there were no votes and there was no reason to believe you thought a wagon was viable or likely there, and scum saying that to encourage a wagon on someone with 0 votes at this gamestage doesn't feel that plausible.

I do think you don't see RVS the same way I or a lot of people I've played with do, though. Murdercat's 72 is more how I'd approach a vote like that, iow
Are they good for having killed rvs (getting game moving -> pro-town) or are they scum doing the same thing for towncred
is the vote weak/low-committment for scum motivation(flexibility) vs are they town just weak voting?
What draws the games from my experience out of RVS is people make at first very weak or exaggerated votes in a sort of "leap of faith" that the next ones are progressively better and in general people see it as a necessary evil to get over with, except for a few people who actually enjoy it, and it has its own quirks and things to look at . I think you not judging this in that approach is odd, but I can definitely buy it with your joindate and activity as maybe a sitemeta thing that changed over time or something... and some people do just look at it differently I think? But if you're town you misunderstanding and disliking it makes sense at least.

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Nacho, where are you at?

Bella too?

People I feel confident reading please post more.

You feel confident reading nachomamma??

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This game is so weird I don't know what to do though.

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I want to vote dwlee but the V/la...

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VOTE: Shadow_Step

Is this RVS? At this point robb and me thing happened though.

Hello, everyone, my name is Distortion! You probably haven't met me before, but I'm something you'd probably refer to as an 'alter ego.'

I wanted to discuss some things that were bothering me real quick. First off, high activity wins games. The more town discusses and pushes and does 'townie things,' the higher chance for us to win. Please stay active, and I don't even care what alignment you can be. Activity wins games, and I'm going to try to fulfill that requirement ourselves.

I don't believe in setup spec in closed standard games of Day 1.

Nice to meet some of you players I've never played with, and hi to all the players I have played with!

Hi. This isn't a newbie game. We know this.

Okay, so from these quotes going in order I assume you wrote this post as you went through the thread and picked things that stuck out. Was the rob/me wagons uninteresting or not worth commenting on? Minor but I don't see the priorities here.

Murder is better late game.

Care to offer some supporting evidence? Sounds to me like you're buddying up.

Instinctively, hiplop appears to be in playful town mode; more of a gut read than anything.

Okay, asking KTS for evidence on murder being better late game is really weird. It doesn't feel like a substantial thing to be focusing on in context and as opposed to murder or KTS himself. The buddying isn't even implausible but the notion of wanting evidence I don't understand; as scum buddying he'd still have something to say to back it up?
Giving an instinctive gut-read right after saying this is really cheeky though and something you probably noticed as either alignment. Kind of WIFOMy though.

Vedith is prob scum.

VOTE: Vedith

I'm actually okay with this after a Vedith ISO.

This is hilarious because at the same time you're clarifying your RVS vote is still rvs/not on a scumread you're not voting there or anywhere else, as vedith points out. Did you ISO vedith and thought he was okay for shadow to vote, but "disagreed" or didn't scumread him yourself?

Aside from 94, I don't see anything particularly poor about Dwlee. I would even go so far as to argue that he's playing more to his town-style than in my experience with him.

This is okay, I want to see it if you don't mind though. A bit long winded compared to "I think hes town" or "he's town from my experience of him" but I can't judge for that.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee is trying to look useful while being hella useless

This early, it doesn't surprise me. I find it interesting Hiplop offers an explanation without voting, and Bella votes without explaining. Something about the vote from Bella especially feels off.

@Bella: do you have a reason for your vote?

I don't like saying it feels really off without attempting to go into it at all. That and "it's interesting" isn't really saying much here.

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VOTE: ASP

Eeeehh. It looked worse on first impression than now but there's nothing better?

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I like robb, also murder and dragon for town.
Dwlee I researched in a previous game and I remember him in his scum games being obvscum under pressure and caught d1 by people familiar with him so I'd want him wagoned just to see if that'll happen here but screw it.
Vedith's alright.
Shadow I'll revisit.

KTS is being obnoxious and jester just has posts doing his jester shtick... sadly nai
I really want nacho more involved, though I'll definitely fail to read him his posts are at least very interesting to read and part of why I in'd was to play with him again...
Bellaphant's too reserved as well but the dwlee vote is okay in context.
fuck if I know anything about hiphop

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VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee is trying to look useful while being hella useless

This early, it doesn't surprise me.

I find it interesting Hiplop offers an explanation without voting

, and Bella votes without explaining. Something about the vote from Bella especially feels off.

@Bella: do you have a reason for your vote?

I don't like saying it feels really off without attempting to go into it at all. That and "it's interesting" isn't really saying much here.

Actually this is also wrong since hiplop did have dwlee voted. I was looking more on bella there than hiplop but with you instinctive gut-reading him I assume you would've noticed his vote.

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Ok I read the post and I'm not sure why it had to be so long. Are you typically a wordy person?

Also I did try and look through some of your games to verify and I was able to find 3 games (less than half of the games I looked at) where scum started without an Rvs vote. 1 was an IC, 1 was a really awesome guy who started the game the same way I did, 3. I can't remember who the 3rd was now that I'm typing lol.

It's more about unengaging/quiet entrances than an explicit vote or lack of vote. It's really just that people who come in and chat a bit are probably more relaxed and unless I think one of those come off really phony I'll prefer them to nakedvotes or the really quiet entrances, though it really isn't a big deal overall either way and more something to settle on that early.

I'm pretty sure you're town now though if you think I'm weird this early I can tell you already it doesn't get any better.

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I-it's not like I was worried or anything!

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VOTE: A simple plan

Is this sheeping or do you have a read here?

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Reading up a bit as I can; day trip yesterday left me more exhausted than I thought. I'm at the VC on page 7.

@Vedith, re 128: my vote is a reflection of who I was most suspicious of. I said I understood Shadow's vote on you, not that I automatically think he's town because of a decent vote. I still don't like that he changed votes in RVS without an explanation; it's hard to read confidently as a second RVS or a motivated vote, and in my experience, RVS trains usually see scum jumping on. It reads a vote to try to force towncred.

Okay, let's see.
So RVS trains usually have scum jumping on, and because shadow's vote has no explanation, it's hard to read and so you see it as the worst here and most likely to have been a scum vote jumping on there than the others. Makes sense.
I don't understand how it be to "force towncred" as opposed to just wanting someone early wagoned for a chance to get a claim or sow discontent, especially considering shadow who from his experience I doubt knows what towncred is let alone would play for it in RVS. Along with how you answer this and I feel almost overexplaining (as opposed to just saying "I thought his jump on was opportunistic") I think this could be a retcon.
Finally if it's a real vote as opposed to RVS, asking other people questions and pointing out things you dislike elsewhere but not mentioning this until now or asking shadow anything reads as weird prioritisation. Your only comment before this on him was saying his vote was alright whereas you commented on problems with bella and KTS so this makes less sense now than if it was an RVS left on.

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@Jester
It's more minor than robb, murder and you but his entrance looks relaxed and for some reason I liked his post dismissing the game as "nai shitposting". He said he was busy until today like nacho.

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Huh, I think ASP is weird but my townreads are all off the wagon.
Jester I assume you dislike ASP wagon based on vedith being on it, but if you know ASP I want your insight here eventually.

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I've seen ranger suggest something like this once but it didn't happen.
Isn't this a day 2 thing though? People can't have results yet and I think hypo claiming who people would target ahead of time helps scum.
Nacho can you please explain?

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I want to hypo results this game. Thinking out loud, wanted to do this all at once but it seems the longer I put it off until I have a significant chunk of time the longer I put off the game in general.

Also why did you hold off on posting for this? I don't see why this is a priority now and I don't know why planning to hypo results would delay you from getting in the game.

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Okay, bringing it up now just to get people to agree to do it later (get a consensus/commitment now) makes sense because it avoids problems implementing it down the line, and proposing it later people might not agree so readily or be caught up in things. The problem is if we spend too much time on this it's essentially noise and interrupting the game, so ideally sort this out ASAP and move on. And right now that means going into more detail since many of us including myself are either vague or clueless on exactly how this goes.

In general if this works like how I think it does, its good for low-info roles and true-innos with the downside that scum can POE quickly everytime someone hypos a result on them, unless I misunderstand this. People have to convincingly fake results or scum could ignore the obvious fakes as well. In a way this benefits the most if everyone's reads are bad (and their hypos are on town) than if people are reading scum correctly and hypo them, so it's kind of like insurance for bad reads which goes well with what PRs do in the first place, overall I think it's more pro-town? Nacho bringing it up is a little unsettling tbh because scum nacho is probably best suited to abuse the data from this for pr hunting. Another concern is if people play off the results too heavily if scum have gf/ninja/rb/scumdoc/traitor/??.

I want more information on this and it's troublesome considering this thing without having anything else from nacho to look at. Also I'm wondering if this should be voted on, initial thought is that's just giving scum the control of the decision but like a regular wagon they may not want to group and peoples choices here is also information to analyse. What a headache though.

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After some searching
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/con ... y-Yates%29
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/con ... by-soah%29

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Reading over I think it's a good idea now even if nacho's scum here and is planning to abuse.

I want to go back to the game now but my scumreads don't post and there's nothing to do..

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zzzzzzzzz

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Can everyone weigh in on ASP and vedith please.

ASP votes vedith on the basis of vedith's vote being bad/bs but he frames the vote as being about contribution/not-"producing" anything here. Which doesn't make any sense in the context of this game where ASP himself and half the playerlist hasn't given reads.

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People have given basic thoughts on whether they were for or against the ASP wagon but in general no one's went in and engaged with what I said or given some backbone to their stance aside from gut.
Murder, bella, KTS, etc. Do you think I'm wrong in scumreading his play here? Does anyone townread him or is everyone just null and thinking this is a red herring?
Jester since you see the other side of it can you go into why you dislike vedith here vs ASP?

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What's aggravating is that it's the only thing going on and most people are uninvolved but don't have anything else they suggest.

If people said hey your ASP wagon is shit but here's a case I have on X I'd be like okay there's something to think about. But it's just AFKs and pressure wagons and nothing serious apart from this.

The hypo delays this by like 2 days, I'm V/LA friday/saturday and then deadline's in a few days from that. If day 1 ends like this and I get NK'd I don't even know what the point of joining this game was.

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KTS help?

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I just wrote a bunch about nacho but I feel like it would be bad to actually say it.
Tl;dr is nacho votes are legit but I'm not really excited with the prospect of trying to sort him d1 and I wish we had a more active day and could've found obv/easyscum instead of taking on this wifom would-he-really-do-this-as-a-reaction-test. Even ASP who I have a ton of problems being v/la half the game is still sorely little information. So yeah if everyone could try their best here because it's really hard not to feel apathetic at this point.

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Uhhh rap. I listened to sour soul recently!

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Yeah exactly, my vote will move if he's obv town like normal when he does those posts.

Doesn't saying this kind of defeat the purpose of voting him for pressure?

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I'm back!

All in's alright, robbnva was good anyways.

Nacho's townreads are decent, but him (and like half the game) not willing to go into their scumreads is still fucking with me. From my experience these situations lead to last-minute "settle" wagons and compromising at deadline just to avoid no-lynch but whatever.

Have more to say but for now resetting prod timer.

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VOTE: hiplop
back to this

Can you go into this?

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N1 Murdercat Positive Vedith, Dragon of the West.
JOAT first investigative action.

If the player flipped cop/gunsmith, Murdercat would be scum (Target was murdercat, result was negative so "mafia" or "gun").

So positive = inno? The way you said this is confusing because its positive in the example and negative in the explanation.

N3 MURDERCAT Positive MURDERCAT

Can you eli5 this one?

Also, if I'm understanding this. People should fake results on people they're likely to investigate, meaning scum or null reads. But wouldn't claiming an inno on one of these means they have to treat them as inno even though they aren't a townread in order to maintain the illusion? Overall still worth it but man that change to town flexibility (people having scumreads they can't/shouldn't pursue) I'd imagine is going to make things weird.

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Can we get prods please?

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I saw that as either out of humour or "rubbing it in", he voted with him too and didn't seem to cast doubt or badmouth him through it, I thought it was a minor thing anyways.
I don't really get your perspective since literally everyone thinks its not substantial (and so him not "engaging you" on it is okay) but you scumread it and seem to have your read on that one thing.

If you said you scumread him for his interactions around you or in something else he did more noteworthy I could understand but this is kind of silly? Do you think everyone's except you is wrong in seeing this one thing differently?

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I mean I don't even townread hiplop but the way you scumread him doesn't make sense.

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Actually nacho thinks it's a good point and wonders why he doesn't answer, but comes away with a hiplop townread anyways. Nacho's townread on hiplop in general I don't follow either.

Nacho's if you're town you know murder and all in just finished townreading you on one-sided/limited meta (I'm sure at least all-in is town) and how wrong it would be since you can fake these posts as scum, so how can you go on to townread hiplop in the same way, admitting it's based on one-sided meta without alarm bells going off?

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At least the eventual replacements will give us an extension hopefully...

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VOTE: Nacho

Everyone else wasting time is whatever but nacho should know better.
As far as I can tell he's intentionally doing nothing (as opposed to everyone v/la, afk or seemingly unmotivated) and is content mostly answering questions despite him being leading wagon and the day going nowhere this close to deadline. I don't see ANY concern from someone being scumread by his townreads and I can't wrap my head around what he's doing; OTOH as scum he can wait/prepare until near the end to post to save himself and win vs the dragon wagon. But as town unless that is your top scumread you don't wait around like this, it doesn't make any sense.
I've kept holding off to see if he'd reach an "enough is enough" point and try to get things done but he's just pushing the hypo claim business. The only person not a townread of his he reached out or questioned seemed to be bella, but I don't think town nacho would have a scumread at 0 votes (very unlikely to be lynched atm) and like not pursue them while there's a chance but just hold off inexplicably to try to swing it last day.

The hypo claim business itself is even pro-town and a good idea but it's like him doing that replaces actually playing the game (if he's town how is he so focused on the future and not concerned he'd be nightkilled for being a good player or suggesting the hypo claim?) and I know as scum he's nefarious enough to do it for towncred or especially to analyse/pr-hunt through it.

All of that said I don't townread bella either though. Lynchpool is ASP, nacho, bellaphant (maybe dwlee? but he's unlikely scum with any of these). Purely from everyone hating the ASP wagon without anyone townreading him I'd prefer him dead but it looks like that's never happening.

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If this was his only game I wouldn't be able to judge the activity but I see him posting elsewhere...

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If I can save myself as scum, why can't I save myself as town?

It's not that you can't its the question of why would you let it get to that point as town. Saving oneself/diverting wagon != lynching a scumread, unless dragon is your top scumread, but as scum letting diverting it doesn't matter where and especially voting in a survival situation can't be analysed or looked into as much as otherwise.

If scum is in danger them holding off and even preparing for diverting later seems viable especially for someone like you who'd be confident in it. You could say "oh I didn't get a chance to lynch my scumread then since I was in that position; here are my first real thoughts" on d2, rather than earlier which would be more commitment and make you look bad on mislynch. OTOH as town there's literally no reason to choose that unless you really don't have a choice.

This the first I'm hearing about you not having time or low motivation; before you said you intentionally came in late and focused on what you did as a reaction test, and then said you didn't want to go into who you leaned scum on purpose as well, and just sounded so calm and fine being secretive you gave off this feeling of being fine with everything and doing what you wanted to be doing. Like you were giving off this "it's all going to plan" vibe which felt BS and none of the concern for the game situation or your personal one which I expected to see until now. You acted (or at least how I read it) like you did have control over what you were doing (as opposed to not having time = not really having resources to do what you wanted) and that made it look like you were intentionally holding out, which is my problem.

Yes this is kind of BoP and if you just don't have the time it's maybe unfair (when literally half the game is afk too) but I also don't know why you can't just be more open and say these things earlier; "hey guys I don't have time to get into my reads please give me some space etc" and even giving a summary or quick post to address things overall isn't a huge time commitment but it's like you were unnecessarily secretive. Like everyone else had at least basic scumhunting impetus or otherwise gave excuses/explanations. I feel like I was forced into this just to get something from you.

Making it out to be a pure lurk-wagon is a misrep too, earlier maybe but the main problem for me and a few others is that you have put content in, but just in the wrong places; the hypo claim talk and some discussion but no vote or anything that felt substantial so it's like what are these priorities.

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Nacho's if you're town you know murder and all in just finished townreading you on one-sided/limited meta (I'm sure at least all-in is town) and how wrong it would be since you can fake these posts as scum, so how can you go on to townread hiplop in the same way, admitting it's based on one-sided meta without alarm bells going off?

Murder and All-In both incorrectly scumread me due to thinking that I would lurk as scum but not town.

My townread on hiplop is because I don't think that he would play so lazily and so sloppily as scum; this is based on limited meta because part of it is his commentary on his own scum play and how I've seen him behave in the past, but while I'm not sure he doesn't do it as scum, I don't really see the motivation in copying that aspect of his town meta here (since it often gets him mislynched). Does that make sense?

Why didn't you respond to this post?

Mixed results.

My point was how murder and all-in talked about you as though "oh he'll just make one of his big posts and obvtown" and started changing read on you when you started posting a bit more around that time. Which I know is careless since scum!you can fake those posts and obviously you know this. Town-you would see this and also know they're wrong/underestimating your scumgame because of incomplete knowledge of meta, so you going on to townread hiplop right aroudn the same time when you don't know his scummeta in a similar way without seeming too worried had my attention. But on revisit it felt too much of a stretch/assumption that you'd necessarily see it that way as town anyways. The read itself makes sense on the basic level I'm familiar with though I'd also expect it to.

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I also don't know what the whole posting elsewhere thing is about; I can't really respond to it because yes I've been posting elsewhere but the fact that raises a red flag for you surprises me.

The more I get into this the more dangerous and/or rule straddling it is.
Basically if you were less active everywhere, you being less active here would be better, although this was more of a "this is just ridiculous" cherry-on-top of everything else than something I hardcore looked into.

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The reads feel good though.

I was hoping to find my own answers. There are no answers.

I feel like I have the most responsibility right now and am likely dying but knowing something must be done isn't helping get it done.

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@Nacho: Dwlee again, bella, also more murder details and how that changed from earlier townread.
@Shadow. are you 'reaction testing' or do you actually believe the things you're saying? If you want vedith/all-in lynched maybe go into it a bit more?
@Vedith any comment on the nacho thing or on the other slots? What is your actual read on shadow?
@Dragon I don't have a problem with you but god help you if you don't finish your catchup or inexplicably vanish tomorrow.
@KTS something, anything
@murder update?
@bella any thoughts on nacho himself this game? go into/give update on dragon read.

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No scumread? No vote?

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*eye twitches*

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I'm not reaction testing, I've pointed out inconsistencies in All In's thought process which can't possibly come from town.
He hasn't even responded to them yet.
Nobody is buying my case against him so he keeps on conveniently ignoring it.

Your case is that he said he didn't like your RVS vote and you say that's BS.
Do you have anything else to say?

You're making it out as though you've made a big case and pointed out inconsistencies when what you pointed out reads very insubstantial and not even something anybody really agrees with.
If you're 100% on him scum maybe go into the other 90% of what he said?

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Actually never mind, you're fine.

VOTE: KTS

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No scumread? No vote?

I wanted to wait to hear why shadowstep was tunneling all in before I put my vote on anyone. Also, I'm not the only one that doesn't have my vote on anyone and there are multiple people that have been unwilling to divulge their reads

So any comments now? I don't know what you're waiting for even if others are vla. If you have any questions to anyone you aren't really asking them.

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The leniency on v/la probably means no replaces after all today and no extension which sucks. I was hoping for a deadline extension to then snowball into a few replaces and reboot the game tbh.

At this point I'm fine with either kts and now dragon wagon though ASP would still be better if people would ever see it (look at that entrance). Not a fan of bella either but meh.

Legitimately have a few things with KTS and now dragon but I want people to give their own reasons instead of repeating/paraphrasing what I say.

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Oh hey. I disagree on jester and I would think you'd like murder for starting the KTS wagon but other than that.

Still don't even townread nacho (feeling confident on him in either direction this early is semi impossible) but he's too potentially valuable to gamble on here and is at least doing things now.
I feel like you should at least understand what was the reason behind that one though? It was because he had the time for d2 hypoclaim stuff but not reads/involvement.

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How do you comment on 10 other people but not on your vote?

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Meh, on a basic level townreading nacho and then scumreading hip for the nacho jump (I guess) is okay even if I completely disagree.

At any rate dragon's play around this deadline ruined him for me.
VOTE: Dragon

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I'm guessing we can't swing an ASP lynch last minute?

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Individually I don't like bella either BUT I don't think bella-asp likely responds in that way so I might be wrong on one of them.
As ASP read is technically more "this is really weird and doesn't make sense from town" than smoking-gun "x is MALICIOUS" and bella is a lot of gut I can see it and the low content and no real chance to interrogate kind of ruins it. Never seen a wagon on someone like ASP-this-game so thoroughly ignored/shunned though.

Both of them are still fine(as in viable partners of) WRT dragon, ASP expressing approval but voting vanity and bella's position.
Technically counterwagon to hop on WOULD be murder but I like dwlee who started it and overall seems unlikely to go through anyways so ASP not doing it's okay. Bella leaving dragon from her wagon slot on it would look terrible too as it was a pretty hard commit placement and would have her bitten on dragon flip if they're together.

As-is I see {dragon, asp or/(and?) bella, though third is probably one of the lower confidence reads}

If I die don't lynch jester, also opposed to dwlee (though we disagree) and I want to see say all-in but I haven't revisited that for long time. Don't actually know murder (don't think her second-guessing is that bad), hiplop vedith that well and I keep wavering there so you'll have to figure that out plus nacho/kts who my experience with doesn't seem to help at all. Shadow I'm actually townleaning(?) now and I say this as someone who caught scum!him before, but be careful since he's low charisma. My best bet would be having ASP and bella wagoned tomorrow and probably chose between the two barring someone scumslipping or something, obviously don't ignore new information.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: ASP

Taking the 'non-confrontational' spots on the KTS and now Dragon Wagons, coupled with this post here in which it's clearly specified that I would be the ideal lynch and does nothing else but offer hypotheticals; if I'm the top scumread, vote me.

Criticises wagon spot as opposed to the votes themselves and why/how this is scummy. Wagon position itself without context is shallow; in every wagon there are "non-confrontational spots' and on a basic level pointing this out without saying why/how it's bad isn't saying anything. No judgement on why my wagon position is bad vs people in the same "wagon spots" on other wagons; or why sheeping or even being "non-confrontational" is necessarily bad.

The implication is he's casting doubt on me for being non-confrontational with wagon positioning and not voting him.
But this ignores
1. ASP wagon's being tried but not taking off, half the playerbase opposed. On top of ASP's own inactivity and the game in general stalling the value of sticking there on a lost cause vs trying elsewhere.
2. Deadline, the scramble to actually get something going; voting ASP at that point is pure vanity (as it probably wasn't happening) and doesn't affect the day as opposed to consolidating on a lynch.
3. That there ever is a reason for anyone to vote lesser scumreads or even nulls.
In other words it's shallow thinking because it's ignoring obvious problems with why someone wouldn't always vote their top scumread for the entirety of a day. No reason to believe he considered the flipside or genuinely thought things through.
Maybe (2) or (3) aren't that obvious when coming in inactive but

as a lurker slot coming in 24h to deadline with people consolidating and saying "if I'm the top scumread, vote me" is disingenuous.

Keep in mind that the moment Nacho starts producing, Rask is off the wagon to serve as a sheep (457) to Murder, who curiously enough had also been the first vote on Nacho.

This is brought up to support the above but doesn't really follow since nacho exchange absolutely was "confrontational" (as was the asp wagon before he lurked through the entire day) and ASP doesn't say anything about how/why leaving the nacho wagon for KTS is a bad thing or scummy.
Like no comment on the stance or unvote itself being bad or good? If you scumread this shouldn't you be thinking "oh that's a fake read on nacho and fake unvote" but it's like the emphasis is purely on timing rather than looking at the read or interaction itself. I think this approach comes from someone picking me to scumread and working backwards; if you're actually reading that exchange naturally and going through the content your mind makes some conclusions there, it doesn't jump to the vc significance without in any way judging the content and at least making a basic statement on the read or the nacho wagon.

Faint suggestion of something bad being from joining murder's wagons (which are actually most of the wagons in the game) but nothing really said there.

Also worthy of note, Rask has been on every leading wagon (every one to at some point be the closest to a lynch via the VC) since it was Rask on Page 7.

If this was the original point and why he has a problem with me his case would make more sense (I don't like rask because he wagons everything) but this is like an afterthought thrown in. I mean this could have been a half decent argument if it was taken anywhere, but it's just left like this.
Now I think ASP brings this up because "hey being on all wagons looks bad and I can mention it" but hey I'll break down why this can be half-decent to begin with but why just leaving it here doesn't say anything.

Spoiler:

Why wagon over-flexibility a scummy thing in the firstplace
Being too open to wagoning or lynching anything suggests someone is okay with everyone being expendable; and the likelihood of the person forming their own separate real evaluations of these wagons and being in favour every time AS OPPOSED TO them not having real stances and being fine with settling for anything IS low. If someone does this on top of not going into or conflicting with townreads (i.e. throwing away townreads opportunistically) the conclusion is they probably don't actually have townreads. If done especially with someone not pushing anything on their own it suggests they don't actually have a real lynch preference or desire to influence the game beyond survival.
Considerations
As solid as this sounds it doesn't take into account "pressure" and how people approach more null or inactive slots, how wagons have almost stages where it ramps up and gets more serious, basically the finer details.
It also has to be considered that wagons can be influenced by gamestate reasons and how a dead game can lower one's standards in order to get anything going.
Like anything it needs nuance and context to function. How bad is each individual wagon and votee vs the vote onto them?

Standalone there's no problem saying this fact, but not saying how or why it's worthy of note leaves it a weak statement.

I will not be around between now and day's end, but I see some merit to the Dragon wagon. I like Rask right now for top scum, but based upon this wagon and Rask's place on it, I could see them as partners.

This sounds pretty certain of a dragon scumflip considering ASP inactivity.
I just don't buy that townASP comes in and scumreads me, sees "some merit" to dragon and confidently suggests that partner association (that convinced on dragon too?), all without once saying anything about murdercat or KTS wagons which were going on at the time. I think its unlikely someone naturally comes in with this stance after lurking day 1 and it just reads to me he actually knows what happens next WRT the flip.

Spoiler:

Also in my mind, in terms of probability
-scum ASP 100% says this
-town ASP doesn't necessarily; with potential to read dragon differently or seeing a negative association
which is a suggestion rather than a rule but townASP just happening to overall play in a way that would be optimal for scumASP is less likely imo than him just being scum

Overall I assume he looked at me because I scumread him (like vedith earlier) and decided to make this from skimming VCs; I don't see consideration. Probably didn't read the game or most of my ISO and didn't go into my reads or anything I said (other than that I would ideally lynch him). Basically pointing out things but not taking them to conclusions, and the way he comments (stating facts instead of making judgements) vs the feeling I get from it I don't think it's a real read. It isn't immediately obvious but specifically talking on wagon positioning and timing instead of once going into CONTENT is a wtf approach but especially at d1 before any flips the vc analysis I don't get it. Same with his weirdness earliergame, I really can't follow this train of thought as town.

The vote itself (how it was a vanity/for-show vote) on revisit isn't bad since as town one would also legit want to vote vanity if they did genuinely scumread dragon (as opposed to unannounced hammer or no-vote), but with the reason being to leave your other scumread there and explained for people in case you died. But him not saying anything to that effect and approaching this as he did I have no reason to believe that VS him just wanting to tie association with his partner. Scum ASP at that point can't really counterwagon if their partner is l-1 and also wouldn't want to unannounced-hammer so supporting the lynch while talking about something else makes sense.

[Raskolnikov]

I want to make a distinction though. ASP isn't scum because his arguments are bad, he's probably scum because he's not thinking about the game in a way I see as beyond puddle-deep or genuine.
Obviously given his activity it doesn't make sense to expect anything in-depth, but given that I'd expect a lower level of confidence 'expressed'(what I feel he gives off) from him, furthermore I think he misses basic obvious considerations and doesn't focus on things which make sense.
His approach reads to me like someone who decided to scumread me and skim for justification afterwards.

[Raskolnikov]

Murder can you go into your reads again?

[Raskolnikov]

Really enjoyed this game. Good job shadow_step too that was pretty nice play throughout the game.

TY Plot !