Brexit

[mykonian]

Populists like that are a sign that common politics is failing if they get bigger.

Not necessarily!

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... or-renewal

Though you'll find no love for UKIP in me.

Trump is a perfect example for my statement, I'm sorry. If a big man with an incoherent story but at least simple messages can connect with the voters, why can't the establishment? And they didn't want him. Even that article itself describes how a rising gap between rich and poor could push America to Trump.

There are examples of populism working out in the long run (iirc one or two in south america that ended up being beneficial), but that also arose from a stormy rise in power as the people did not feel represented by the nationalist governments put there.

Common politics must be failing for populists to get the disgruntled common man they need.

[T S O]

you can't barrage the farage

[T S O]

The referendum shouldn't be binding because of the turnout. Of course, every other thing that's ever been passed with a <80% turnout is entirely binding and legitimate.

[ActionDan]

Oh sorry, the establishment, yes, it's failing. I misinterpreted you to be saying the political system in general

[Fenchurch]

The referendum shouldn't be binding because of the turnout. Of course, every other thing that's ever been passed with a <80% turnout is entirely binding and legitimate.

The result isn't binding, regardless of the turnout. But whether it should happen is still at question, partly because of how close the result was, and because of the consequences and how much is at stake.

Were you a leave voter then TSO, and if so, what was your main reason? And given the choice between: free trade with the EU and free movement of people, or no free trade with the EU and no free movement, which would you pick?

Is it also difficult to imagine why moving towards more center/moderate positions might capture more voters?

It's not that I can't imagine why; it's that I'm not personally clear on what a centrist or moderate voter wants. If I was able to personally choose the next leader of the labour party, and my main focus was picking someone with mass appeal, what should I be looking for?

[Rob14]

UK voters still don't understand that they aren't "escaping" from EU regulation by leaving. All European imports would still have to comply, as would all UK products that want to be sold in the EU. The only way to avoid the regulations would be to purposefully reduce trade with Europe, which is obviously hurts the UK way more than the EU.

[Fenchurch]

UK voters

still don't understand that they aren't "escaping" from EU regulation by leaving.

When you put it like this, it's like you don't know that 48% of us voted against the madness.

[Fromage]

I totally think national identity is an engineering problem.

That's an interesting view. Let me explain why I disagree.

American identity didn't come out of nowhere. The American independence is closely connected to the Revolutionary War. Americans could always define themselves as not-British. At least 15 million Chinese died in the second world war. The Chinese could define themselves as not being Japenese.

I mean, in China, the first thing a preschool kid do when he arrives at school is to salute the red flag, well before he can comprehend the notion of nation in itself.

What also happens in Chinese schools, is that every kid learns Mandarin. A common language helps to form an identity.

Germany totally failed in making the Poles in West Prussia and Posen Germans in the 19th century. Turkey has been unable to destroy the Kurdish identity despite its big efforts. They certainly saw identity as an engineering problem but failed to master it.

Real integration always means dissociation of the outside. Europe was always at war with itself. It was never seriously threatened from the outside. And I don't want to have another world war.

[Fromage]

UK voters still don't understand that they aren't "escaping" from EU regulation by leaving. All European imports would still have to comply, as would all UK products that want to be sold in the EU. The only way to avoid the regulations would be to purposefully reduce trade with Europe, which is obviously hurts the UK way more than the EU.

I don't think many people voted to leave because they wanted to get rid of EU product regulation. My impression is that leave voters were mostly concernced about immigration.

I wonder if the european governments should have offered Cameron a better deal in January. In principle freedom of movement is great. A problem of the Euro is that it's still too complicated to move from one country to another / or that people aren't willing enough (I don't know). However for the eastern European countries FoM has effectively been a one-way street. And this frightens people. Many concerns are objectively wrong but some aren't. It doesn't significantly depress wages for low-skilled workers overall but it depresses wages in some industries. Most people come to work but some are mainly interested in the social benefits.

[Wake1]

In general I don't particularly care about off-seas issues, but I would like to hear both sides of this one.

Though this thread seems to hold a majority opinion, there are just as many on the other side.

[Majiffy]

David Cameron: "Yup things are great in there", as he exits burning building.

[Drench]

theresa's #look here

[ChannelDelibird]

BORIS JOHNSON AS FOREIGN SECRETARY

IS THIS A JOKE

IS THIS ACTUALLY TROLLING

[Davsto]

guess what our new prime minister decided to elect fucking Boris Johnson as foreign secretary

Like what

I can think of very few politicians who would be worse at that job and most of them are Nigel Farage

[Davsto]

On the bright side

George Osborne has been sacked

So there's

some

good

[Drench]

it's literally 100% true britain you are fucking it up so much

[Majiffy]

I am refraining from gloating as much as possible until after November.

[Drench]

okay did theresa may retaliate or not in her letters though

[Nexus]

BORIS MEET VLAD

VLAD CRUSH BORIS

[Davsto]

BORIS MEET VLAD

VLAD CRUSH BORIS

they do the monster mash

[ActionDan]

Is it okay to post this here:

[Not_Mafia]

Genuinely embarrassed

[Not_Mafia]

But hey maybe we'll get a health secretary that doesn't want to dismantle the NHS

[Sudo_Nym]

I was listening to Dan Carlin, and he made the interesting point that things like this were the reason why the American system doesn't have referendums. You get all sorts of weird things when you make decisions based on a poll of a bunch of non-experts who don't understand the full implications of the decisions they're being asked to make.

[Equinox]

I am refraining from gloating as much as possible until after November.

On the bright side, if we do get a President Trump, all of us can watch the (Western) world burn together.