Open 646 - Semi Nightless - Game Over (D6)

[karnos]

confirm/conform

[karnos]

Don't I get banned for not reading my role PM? :^ )

THIS GAME IS A TRAP, RUN!

[karnos]

The cull? Is this more like hunger games, or the purge?

[karnos]

VOTE: Transcend I think the mod just listed scum first.

[karnos]

These things are fun, haven't seen one since my newbie games.

1. Do you get your reads typically from gut or evidence?

60/40 slightly favoring evidence collection.

2. How would you describe your level of experience?

3 games completed, played in 7 others which are still ongoing, but I learn quick.

3. When trying to get a better read on a specific player, do prefer you reread the entire thread or just their ISO?

I've never re-read the entire thread late game, but I will read an iso and maybe the last 10 pages or so of the full thread.

4. What's your Myers-briggs personality type? Here's a link to a test for it if you don't know yours, but you can skip this one if you don't feel like wasting time.

Maybe do this later, I think I was INTP when I did a test 10+ years ago.

5. What's your opinion on Lynch All Liars? Lynch All Lurkers? Policy lynches in general?

I put this stuff in my wiki page just a couple days ago.

Spoiler: game philosophy

Town can and should lie. "Lynch all liars" is a fallacy. As an obvious example, a town cop who is questioned "are you a cop?" should almost always lie, unless he was in a situation where revealing his role would have been the best move anyway. Note, however, that certain lies are much more likely to hurt town rather than help. For example, claiming a power role you don't have may cause the real power role to counterclaim you- you just hurt town. These sorts of lies that tend to hurt town should lead to you being lynched, if caught. You will make town lose, and you will deserve to lose. A quick way to tell if your lie is pro-town or not is to pretend someone else used the lie. Would you be inclined to lynch them? If so, don't use that lie!
Don't Always Show Your Hand Common meta on these boards seems to be that a good town should be constantly sharing reads. I disagree. In short, this can give a useful road map to the scum team. If you are reading them all as null/town or better, they know they can safely keep you alive, while the kill the person with less favorable reads. There certainly are times where you want to dump your full reads- when in the spotlight of L-1 for example, in twilight after being lynched, or when you have a strong reason to believe you will be killed at night. But for the majority of the game, I think the better strategy is to be fairly vague, only sharing reads as needed to explain your votes or avoid lynching a strong town read.
L-1 is a Useful Tool Some players have a strange aversion to seeing anyone at L-1 before the town as a whole is ready to lynch the player. I don't. My philosophy is simple- you will get the best reads from someone who is at L-1 and who thinks he could be hammered at any time. If you have a timid-townie who immediately unvotes to protect your potential scum from a derphammer, the effect is enormous: the potential scum immediately knows the pressure was fake, there is no real risk of getting lynched right now, and he can take his time and think about the best possible strategy. The fear tends to be that a clueless player will hammer the L-1 in error. To me, that is a stupid thing to be afraid of. If you have a player that terrible, then you need to out them and remove them from the game, because they will cause you to lose in LYLO. Trying to dance around the possibility of a derphammer early game just helps the clueless townie blend in until endgame when he becomes a huge liability. You should always play as if all town players are rational and decent players, working around town being dumb just opens you up to being fooled by scum who feign being dumb townies. Sanity check: this is regard non-LYLO play. When you get into a situation where scum can hammer and don't care about being seen as scum, the play is a bit different.

6. Do you think it's a good idea to utilize all of the time allotted by a deadline?

Generally yes, but there are absolutely exceptions, some of which aren't very rare. Example: you are a cop with a guilty and you haven't outed yourself. You have a chance to quick hammer your guilty, you take it and end the day early.

7. Are you scum?

I didn't read my role yet, did you? Just kidding! (please don't ban me)

No.

[karnos]

I wanted to just post the joke, but I have seen what KTS was banned for, so I had to make it obvious that the joke was a joke... which kills the joke.

[karnos]

I wanted to just post the joke, but I have seen what KTS was banned for, so I had to make it obvious that the joke was a joke... which kills the joke.

[karnos]

there is something else that bothered me about Karnos's responses that I will discuss after I feel I have enough responses to go off of.

Obviously I have to be curious about that, but more importantly: how do you feel about people who flat out refuse to answer your questions?

[karnos]

The above logic depends on Thor being town as well. Scum Thor could be sheeping a supposed town, in which case that would make it much less likely I am scum.

Unless you think Thor & I are the sort of players who would bus each other day 1.

[karnos]

People implies plural, but only one person has not answered them, Thor665.
The way you worded this looks like just a roundabout way of saying Thor should be criticized more than you because he didn't answer without actually calling him directly out.

Several other players haven't responded to the questions. Maybe you mean only Thor hasn't responded of the players active in the thread... but that is still technically wrong.

Where are gigabyteTroubadour's answers?

(Ninjad, I see they posted just now, but at the time of my original question giga had not provided answers)

[karnos]

BTW, I took the test. I'm “THE VIRTUOSO” (ISTP-A) now. Apparently my personality has drifted a bit over the years.

[karnos]

"Unless you think Thor & I are the sort of players who would bus each other day 1."

This is the most absurd stupid strategy in the history of mafia. No scum would ever bus each other on RL day 1 of day 1 in a game with only 2 mafia to begin with. It's just that ridiculous. I didn't think I needed to post a clarification of how ridiculous it is, because I assumed I was dealing with smart players, but maybe I was wrong. I was making a ridiculous statement to make a point, it's obviously not true, I know it's not true, among other things I know my own alignment.

If you really think I was trying to argue that Thor & I actually are both scum, please just quick lynch me now, I don't want to be a part of this town.

[karnos]

If you really think I was trying to argue that Thor & I actually are both scum, please just quick lynch me now, I don't want to be a part of this town.

But that's not what I was saying. I was saying you were claiming to want him lynched and claiming to have never pushed for his lynched at the same time.

I think you are lying. Didn't you say town doesn't have a good reason to lie in this setup?

"don't see a reason to really lie as town this game as there is no power roles to lie about"

Yes, you did.

VOTE: Io

[karnos]

Specifically, you said "claiming to have never pushed for his lynched"

Please, show me where I claimed to never push for Thor's lynch. Please do. You can't, because it's a lie. I never made such a claim.

[karnos]

Unless you think Thor & I are the sort of players who would bus each other day 1.

Io, is this and post #70 what lead you to believe that Karnos is adamant about Thor's lynch? If not, could you tell me what I missed?

Karnos, how are you reading Thor at the moment?

Thos *is* acting scummy, though not as much as Io, and I only have one vote.

The problem I have with Thor is his logic is inconsistent. He thinks his read is so good he can trust you as town after only a couple posts. Okay, maybe his read is so good, but if you accept that he is so good at reading people, then shouldn't he pick his own scum to vote, based on his amazing reads? Instead he chooses to sheep you. It's like he is saying he is so good at reading people that he is 100% convinced you are town, but at the same time he isn't confident enough in his reads to independently vote on his biggest scum read. It's a weird inconsistency to me.

There is one perfectly logical conclusion, is that he read you as town and I was his biggest scum read, and that would make perfect sense... but when he was questioned about his vote, he didn't say that was the case... he just said he was sheeping you. It's like he doesn't want to take personal responsibility for the vote, doesn't want to be associated with it. He wants to support the wagon on me but give himself a nice out after I flip town.

[karnos]

@Karnos Why did you post #70?

After giga voted me for not liking my answers, I was just thinking about my last game with a questionnaire, where some players skipped it entirely. \

If players know the questionnaire will be used to call them scum, but there is no penalty at all for skipping it entirely, then there is a bit of an incentive to just ignore the questionnaire, rather than answer it. Which makes the whole thing kind of silly and useless.

[karnos]

And interestingly enough, in that newbie game, the first scum we found was one of the players who refused to answer the questionnaire.

[karnos]

One question tho, do you seriously think that Scum!Thor would vote you just as a sheep and say that he's sheeping and make himself the center of attention like that?

Do I think it's possible Thor is scum? Absolutely.

Do I think he is obviously scum and nothing will ever convince me otherwise? Not yet. It's still really early in Day 1, nothing is really set in stone at this point.

Part of the game is voting your scum tell, seeing how they respond, seeing how the react at L-1, seeing how other players react, etc. If you try to tip-toe around the whole process and say things like "I'm not really sure X is scum" you don't put the same pressure on the player, and you get weaker reactions or none at all because the player knows he isn't actually in any serious danger of being lynched.

In this case, I feel fine with revealing my thoughts because there is already enough pressure on Thor from other players to get some good results and reactions.

[karnos]

But I don't really see how his point is valid as he just said I was lying which I don't even see what I was lying about since he didn't really point it out clearly. The closest thing I can see where he gets the "I'm a liar" part from is where I was saying what I thought his intentions with his posts were which wouldn't even be a lie as it's just interpretation as I don't see him having very high town motivations with them. Even if I was stretching that a little bit

It kind of sounds like you are lying again.

" he didn't really point it out clearly"

Specifically, you said "claiming to have never pushed for his lynched"

Please, show me where I claimed to never push for Thor's lynch. Please do. You can't, because it's a lie. I never made such a claim.

Does anyone else think I was really being unclear? Is Io being dumb, or scum?

[karnos]

This logic doesn't make any sense.
Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
Because that's all that doesn't need to happen for this case to fall apart. Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read and haven't yet got a scum read - and, presto, my vote makes perfect sense even within the strange world of Mystic Thor the Wonderous Seer.

Do you have a rejoinder?

What exactly does a town read mean? IMO, it means the player isn't scum.

What exactly does a scum read me? IMO, it means the player isn't town.

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster. There is no inherent difference between a scum read and a town read, they both measure the same thing, but town is on the positive scale and scum is on the negative.

So no, it doesn't make sense that at a point in the game where many players have posted several serious posts outside of RVS, you only have a read on one of them. And further, it doesn't logically follow that your town read is necessarily reading anyone else accurately.

[karnos]

If players know the questionnaire will be used to call them scum

Karnos

, is this what you believe the purpose of the RQS was?

What you or I think about the purpose is irrelevant, since you have already shown that you will use it as an excuse to push a lynch.

Given that knowledge, and knowing that ignoring the RQS has no ill potential, it just sounds like fake scum hunting, busywork essentially. It's like when someone enters thread, asks a few pointed questions, and then never follows up with them.

[karnos]

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster. There is no inherent difference between a scum read and a town read, they both measure the same thing, but town is on the positive scale and scum is on the negative.

I disagree!
I town hunt because im better at finding town than scum!

*banging head against wall*

If you can find town, then by process of elimination you found scum too. The process is identical.

[karnos]

@Karnos - allow me to provide the evidence Io hasn't;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8120442
This is where you were distancing from the position of attacking me.
I no longer see a lie - unless it's from you.
Want to clarify?

That isn't me distancing from attacking you because I didn't attack you up to that point.

This is a semantics debate, where Io claims to understand my meaning better than I do. If you believe her, good god this game is doomed already.

I made a general statement, "how do you feel about people who flat out refuse to answer your questions?"

Io interpreted as an attack on you. Yet you were not the only one who hadn't answered your questions. You also seem to be ignoring the (actually correct) interpretation that it may be more of a question for giga than an attack on you. Yes, I had noted your refusal to answer and it is the reason i asked the question, but that doesn't make the question an attack on you. It's rather odd to me that giga would not find it suspicious that you refuse to answer the questions. It doesn't mean I am attacking giga, or that I think she is scum (as my read on her isn't based on that post alone) but it meant I wanted to see how she reacted to the question.

If I wanted to attack you, I would vote you and it wouldn't be a matter of interpretation, it would be blindly obvious.

[karnos]

Regardless, that's really tangential.
Karnos argues that you cant be bad at scumreading people but good at townreading people because it's the same thing.
Which isn't true, imo.

I'm sorry you are in denial here, but you are wrong. The process of scum hunting means looking at every player, and picking out the one who seems least likely to flip town. There is no difference at all between reading scum and reading town.

[karnos]

These process are entirely different, the conclusion is the same, the only difference is that the reason for the "scumreads" is "PoE" on my case.

How do you know the process is different? I thought you said you only got town reads.

Anyway, hypothetical question: Is there any player you do not town-read right now? Can you point at any post they made and say that was part of the reason why you don't town read them? If so, you successfully read a player as scummy! Congratulations.

Now let's see here what you usually define as "scummy" can be done by both Town and Scum, there's no way you wont make mislynches if you just guide yourself with "scummyness" to vote players.

Are you making the claim that your method never results in a miss-lynch?

[karnos]

VOTE: karnos for being the first one to post after my introduction!

How rude. I haven't done a VC recently, I hope that wasn't hammer.

Hello PC.

[karnos]

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster.

I would agree.
Especially since I never said anything like that.

You are correct, you didn't say anything like that, I was just interpreting your post and reading between the lines, and taking into account the game state.

But now you seem to be pushing the idea that Io can interpret my posts, read details that were unsaid and you fully support her, while here you are arguing that your posts can only be taken literally.

It's a bit of a contradiction in your logic.

[karnos]

The fact you're concerned about how you think I'm using the RQS to push your lynch and how you've been trying to draw negative attention onto Thor (as in post 70) tells me your main concern is in how other people are reading you. That's pretty basic scum motivation. You say you're scumreading Thor and Io, but your interactions with them don't seem like scumhutning to me, it's just redrawing attention onto them.

Again with post 70. You refuse to read it as written, instead adding in assumptions about it's motivation. Saying Thor was the only one who hadn't answered questions is a lie. You had not answered your own questionnaire. Several players who were not active had not answered it. Perhaps players in a prior game didn't answer it. As I said in a prior post, in the only other game I played with a questionnaire, one of the players who refused to answer it flipped scum. You can keep trying to twist 70 into an attack on Thor, but that doesn't make it true.

I don't feel the need to share a detailed read of you right now. You aren't a top scum choice, I have no intention of voting you today, based on the current game state, but if I tell you exactly what behavior of yours is townie and what is scummy I am just inviting you to adjust your play and fool me further if you actually are scum.

[karnos]

. A defense from him wouldn't have even been that hard to make as all he would have needed to do was to explain how I was interrupting his intentions wrong.

FYI, your accusations are based on lies, or "false interpretations" if you prefer.

It's like answering the age-old question "Have you stopped abusing your kids yet?" There is no correct answer.

[karnos]

You are correct, you didn't say anything like that, I was just interpreting your post and reading between the lines, and taking into account the game state.

But now you seem to be pushing the idea that Io can interpret my posts, read details that were unsaid and you fully support her, while here you are arguing that your posts can only be taken literally.

It's a bit of a contradiction in your logic.

Well, first off - you're dodging.

Second off - my post wasn't actually open to your interpretation - because I explicitly stated what I meant, and you then ignored that and inserted a different concept.

Third off - you're actually ignoring that I kind of started on your side in that debate until I looked it over long enough to decide I agreed with Io's stance, so clearly my initial stance is you shouldn't really try to interpret much, and I think what she chose to interpret makes sense, and, as even you have said, it was an attack on me - your only disagreement is whether it was a directed attack on me - which means she's not interpreting much.[/quote]

1- Dodging what? You asked a question, I answered. I am not going to point by point respond to every line in your post, if there is one line in particular you really want me to answer, let me know and I will.

2- Your post was certainly open to interpretation. You said you only had a town read on giga. The question is WHY. At least 4 players had scum reads, and were voting on them outside of RVS AFAICT. You are apparently bad at hunting scum, otherwise you would at least be on par with those other 4 players. The fact you didn't have a scum read when several other players did seems to indicate that.

3- You mean your fake change of heart, mid post? If you changed your mind before hitting submit, you know you can go back and edit the start of your post. I find that posting style to be weird, like you are trying too hard to show you are working from a town thought process. And it was an attack on giga, you, and every non-active player in the game, and players in prior games who skipped out on the questionnaire. Your very selective interpretation that it was only about you is plainly wrong.

Can you just explain to me what the scum motivation would be to "attack you" without using your name, without voting you, and while questioning a player other than you?

[karnos]

Well, first off - you're dodging.

Second off - my post wasn't actually open to your interpretation - because I explicitly stated what I meant, and you then ignored that and inserted a different concept.

Third off - you're actually ignoring that I kind of started on your side in that debate until I looked it over long enough to decide I agreed with Io's stance, so clearly my initial stance is you shouldn't really try to interpret much, and I think what she chose to interpret makes sense, and, as even you have said, it was an attack on me - your only disagreement is whether it was a directed attack on me - which means she's not interpreting much.

1- Dodging what? You asked a question, I answered. I am not going to point by point respond to every line in your post, if there is one line in particular you really want me to answer, let me know and I will.

2- Your post was certainly open to interpretation. You said you only had a town read on giga. The question is WHY. At least 4 players had scum reads, and were voting on them outside of RVS AFAICT. You are apparently bad at hunting scum, otherwise you would at least be on par with those other 4 players. The fact you didn't have a scum read when several other players did seems to indicate that.

3- You mean your fake change of heart, mid post? If you changed your mind before hitting submit, you know you can go back and edit the start of your post. I find that posting style to be weird, like you are trying too hard to show you are working from a town thought process. And it was an attack on giga, you, and every non-active player in the game, and players in prior games who skipped out on the questionnaire. Your very selective interpretation that it was only about you is plainly wrong.

Can you just explain to me what the scum motivation would be to "attack you" without using your name, without voting you, and while questioning a player other than you?

edit/repost to fix.

[karnos]

also i don't see why you couldn't answer my question with a simple "town" or "scum" or even "null", it's not like i'll know why you read me that way and I'll change whatever it is you suspect me for.

Typically, if you are scum, my read on you might help you decide whether or not to nightkill me. Now in this particular setup this is less of a concern, but I don't feel like changing up my strategy at this point because I don't see the benefit.

[karnos]

As written, the post was written in such a way where it could have only been referring to Thor.

Pretend for a moment that Thor did fill out the questionnaire, and I still made that same post. Are you saying it would be grammatically flawed?

No, there is still a valid interpretation for the post: I was asking a general question.

[karnos]

I answered it as a general question, so of course it's a valid interpretation, but I can't help but think after reading 141 that you were trying to cast some sort of suspicion onto Thor (and myself, as it seems you keep bringing up the fact I was withholding my answers for a little bit). I didn't really read it the way Io was and I was trying to understand where she was coming from in post #105 with pretty much all of her suspicion on you, but after seeing more posts from you, I ended up coming to the same conclusion as her after rereading your ISO and the thread.

I agree, my iso probably looks like crap, but every time I look at this thread there are 2-3 new semantic arguments picking apart my choice of words. Instead of arguing that you know what I meant better than I know what I meant, why not explain why I am scum?

Why would scum!karnos go to all this effort to throw suspicion on to Thor? Why would I be so elusive and sneaky about it, while I come right out and call Io scum and vote her? Wouldn't I just vote Thor, if I wanted him lynched?

And WTF is your logic now about 141. You know posts are made in consecutive order, right? Post 70 was Friday afternoon, Io's responses to it occurred later Friday, and then post 141 was Saturday morning. Does your theory include a time travel device? Otherwise, you can't reverse cause and effect. If 141 caused you to view 70 as a scummy post, that still doesn't explain Io's attacks that occurred prior to it.

Anyway, just answer me this if nothing else: whats the scum motivation? Taking your assumptions, not mine: If I have seen scum ignore questionnaires in other games, and I pointed out Thor was ignoring it here to attack him, maybe, if anything, you have proven I am scum hunting. Why does that make me scum, and not town?


Meh. This is a big waste of time and not getting us closer to finding scum. My iso looks bad because I am making posts like this to respond to nonsense attacks and I don't really have much time to look at anything else going on in the game.

[karnos]

PoE in of itself is scummy broseph. the fact you trying it D1 is PAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

If you say so.

I can see why he might say that. It's a very easy way to play as scum, since you know who is all town. You just act like you "figured out" that X player is town, announce your read, and ta-da!

I didn't bring it up because It's so incredibly obviously bad that I don't think someone who actually rolled scum would be careless enough to announce such a strategy.

[karnos]

with that based on what ive seen its karnos and KTL for the scumteam secondary scummy reads on luna and GT (gut mainly)

ANNNNNNND

VOTE: KTS

We real now

pedit: now that you mention that and transcend is not far off of making the list either.

If you think I'm scum, why not just hammer me, why you going for a new wagon instead? Or at least, why not show intent to hammer?

[karnos]

So to ask the question again;

Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
Because that's all that doesn't need to happen for this case to fall apart. Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read and haven't yet got a scum read - and, presto, my vote makes perfect sense even within the strange world of Mystic Thor the Wonderous Seer.

Do you have a rejoinder?

This was the response right here, you even quoted it, so I'm puzzled why you are acting like you aren't aware of it:

2- Your post was certainly open to interpretation. You said you only had a town read on giga. The question is WHY. At least 4 players had scum reads, and were voting on them outside of RVS AFAICT. You are apparently bad at hunting scum, otherwise you would at least be on par with those other 4 players. The fact you didn't have a scum read when several other players did seems to indicate that.

>What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
See above. Other players had scum reads, you aren't an inferior player so you should have one as well.
>Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read
Once your argument is using magic as an explanation, it's obviously just BS

3- You mean your fake change of heart, mid post? If you changed your mind before hitting submit, you know you can go back and edit the start of your post. I find that posting style to be weird, like you are trying too hard to show you are working from a town thought process. And it was an attack on giga, you, and every non-active player in the game, and players in prior games who skipped out on the questionnaire. Your very selective interpretation that it was only about you is plainly wrong.

Since I had other posts defending you, I didn't exactly *need* to show that I had been defending you, it was part of an ongoing conversation.
And, yes, i see you agreeing with me here about my understanding of your claimed beliefs.

That is exactly my point. There was need to show yourself changing heart mid-post, it reads a manufactured fake thought-process designed to show you are coming from a town perspective. As town, you don't *need* to do that, yet you did do it... WHY? Are you trying to overcompensate because of the wagon on you? Are you trying to overcompensate because you are scum?

Can you just explain to me what the scum motivation would be to "attack you" without using your name, without voting you, and while questioning a player other than you?

That is called attacking someone without voting them - which is a very common scum tactic to avoid VCA and to stay off town wagons.
Can you explain the town strategy of attacking someone while *not* being up front about it?

Okay, for the sake of argument assume you are correct, "attacking without voting" is something only scum do.

Why aren't you reading 75 as scummy? Io was attacking me with that post, but she didn't vote me.

It's a pretty terrible logic. I think it's a fairly common town strategy to poke and question suspicious behavior before voting, as reactions are a useful way to read and the most obvious reason, town can only vote one person at a time.

[karnos]

So we're going with the answer; Thor is scummy for not having a scum read by Page 3?

No Thor. You are scummy because the absurd contrast of you being 100% certain someone is town, but claiming to have no idea about who might be scum at all. Reads are relative. I'd understand if you said you had some faint scum reads and some faint town reads on page 3, and I'd be a bit surprised if you didn't have any strong reads by page 20. It would even make sense if you had no or only faint reads on page 5.

In contrast, having one 100% confirmed obv town read while not even having the faintest scum read on page 3 is way out of whack with everything that should be normal. At least, unless 1: you are scum, and you know your town read is town, or 2: you are scum, and your town read is your scum buddy. 1 makes a lot more sense, but either is possible.

[karnos]

That means that if I'm scummy for only having one read at that point.
Then Karnos is also scummy - because he hasn't expressed any reads.

You missed the whole point. Having one 100% certain reads but no other reads at all, not even faint reads, is plainly absurd. If you need time to develop reads, that makes sense, but then you should have a 100% certain town read. If you are god-like at reading people, which might justify your 100% town read, then you would have to have at least some other faint reads, rather than... nothing.

I'm not the one claiming an absurd 100% certain read on page 3, you are. It's not unusual for someone to have no solid reads at that point in the game. It

is

incredibly unusual for someone to have one 100% certain read and no other reads, though.

[karnos]

It might be PC actually now that I think about it more.
I know it's not Kranos though, I'm almost 100% confident he is just plain scum. So I'll keep my vote on him.

Yeah I'm pretty sure Kranos is scum too. Good thing he isn't actually in this game.

Seriously, this shows just how much attention you are paying to the game. You are 100% positive I am scum, yet you spelled my name wrong in two posts in a row. I wonder what else you got wrong... maybe your whole assumptive argument?

Do you have any scum case for me that doesn't involve putting words in my mouth that I never wrote?

[karnos]

My only problem right now is that the game only has 2 scum slots, yet I've found

at least

3 scum.

One of you must be town, but which?

[karnos]

Scum:

Io

,

Kcdaspot

,

Thor

.

Honorable mention to gigabyte for 298 Those sort of posts are popular among scum, because it's a nice setup to get two miss-lynches in a row- but not a real scum read, because other than that one post, nothing super scummy from her.

I'd be okay with lynching Io or Kcdaspot today.

[karnos]

No Thor. You are scummy because the absurd contrast of you being 100% certain someone is town, but claiming to have no idea about who might be scum at all.

Where did I claim I was 100%?

In 149

"Because that's all that doesn't need to happen for this case to fall apart. Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read and haven't yet got a scum read - and, presto, my vote makes perfect sense even within the strange world of Mystic Thor the Wonderous Seer."

Or are you now saying that you were putting out an explanation for your vote that was actually a lie?

"If I was 50% does that change how much you're screeching about this?"

It would reveal that you are either lying here, or your previous theory was a lie. Not really much point in debating further with you once you have revealed that you will just say anything to win an argument, truth be damned.

In before you claim "it was just a theory, I didn't say it was true"- because it was based on your own read, if you knew the theory was false then you shouldn't have used in your argument. Not going to let you hide behind weasel words like "maybe".

[karnos]

I'd adjust my scum reads a bit, that last contradiction pushes thor up a notch, but Io is still my favorite for lynching first.

[karnos]

I've got this one.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66795

No crazy lie logic arguments.

What have you got with a lie logic argument?

First of all, I can only call out a scum for lying if I catch them lying. Doesn't mean it will happen every game.

Second of all....

Thor did you even read this game?

Do? Yes.
Did? No.

In other words, you didn't even read through the game when you replaced in. You don't know me as well as you think you do.

[karnos]

Karnos, why aren't you voting for Thor?

Because that would require unvoting Io.

[karnos]

First of all, I can only call out a scum for lying if I catch them lying. Doesn't mean it will happen every game.

Has it ever happened before to you as town?
I'll agree it doesn't happen every game - I'd love to see an example though, is this your magical first time ever?

No, and no. Can't discuss ongoing games.

I'm actually looking for lies and contradictions a bit more than normal in this game, because of the RQS question #5. As I answered it myself, I don't think a lie is a scum tell on it's own, lying can be pro-town, but some lies are a scum tell. In most games, it's not the most crucial thing in the world to catch a player in a lie, because there are some town justifications for it, IMO.

OTOH, Io said

"I don't see a reason to really lie as town this game as there is no power roles to lie about, I have no problems with policy lynching."

So, after reading that, I have been on the lookout for any obvious lies or contradictions. Partly because I think Io is scum, and I'd like to put her into a situation that proves she doesn't believe in her own answers on the RQS. wanted to test her on that theory.

So, Io, do you think we should lynch the liar Thor?

[karnos]

My no & no answer is probably unclear. No this isn't the first time, and no I can't give an example.

[karnos]

I mean Thor and Karnos derp

Eh, I agree.

But what about Io?

What is she doing to contribute, other than popping in to misspell my name and remind everyone that I am scum.

Wild theory here- Io instigated the whole Thor vs Karnos argument, and then backed off satisfied when I got a few votes on my wagon. Doesn't that scream standard operation for scum? you want to push a miss lynch, but you don't want to be the one who is pushing it hard all day, so that after the flip you can turn things around and get someone on the miss-lynch wagon lynched.

If Io was a townie scum hunting, she should be looking for my partners, or at least putting some effort into my push, encouraging others to vote & hammer me. Instead she sits back and does little to nothing, exactly what I would expect from scum watch a TvT argument unfold.

My only problem with the wild theory: it requires that Thor is town.

[karnos]

Giga, your vote, initially, was for a different reason. And Thor was just blind sheeping you. Io's was the first vote on me because of my "attack on Thor", which is what created the ongoing back & forth that is still making noise now. And why is her vote the last one that mattered? I thought the last vote that matters would be the hammer vote?

[karnos]

it looked to me Karnos was pushing Thor harder then Io, but voting Io, and that didn't make sense to me. So I asked.

I think Io is more likely scum than Thor, both are doing some scummy stuff though. I totally get why it would look like I am pushing Thor harder: Io is just coasting, not really posting anything meaningful, so I don't have any content to respond to from her. Coasting doesn't make her more town in my eyes, though.

[karnos]

My no & no answer is probably unclear. No this isn't the first time, and no I can't give an example.

Second time ever?

I don't even want to appear to be close to breaking any site rules, so I'm not going to comment on what may be occurring in ongoing games.

[karnos]

I somehow didn't notice that before.

Yeah sure, just more lies from our resident liar who thinks we should lynch all liars in this game.

You spelled my name correctly when you voted me. You were just spelling it wrong on purpose, I corrected you and you ignored the correction. If you were actually scum reading me for legitimate reasons the process would require you to, you know, actually read my posts.

Either 1- you did read my posts, and you ignored my correction just be a troll

or 2- you aren't reading my posts, because you are scum and you know I am town, so it doesn't matter what I say

[karnos]

Or I copied and pasted your name at the start of the game which is likely.

And you never read my posts since then.... yeah okay.

Troll or scum?

[karnos]

Accepted without protest.

Except i've been protesting the Karnos wagon all the time, until his last post.
And my vote is still on PC and i've given my reasons.

What exactly is your problem with my last post?

Do you really think it's likely Io is actually reading my posts, given that I have repeatedly commented on her misspellings of my name? I honestly thought she was just being a troll, but now she is denying that she even realized she had it wrong... that I find hard to believe, unless she isn't reading my posts at all.

Not reading is something only a scum would do. A town motivated player would be carefully reading all of his lynch targets posts for more evidence to push the lynch or for useful information post-flip.

[karnos]

Who's your biggest scumread, and who's your biggest townread. Which wagons would you agree to vote on, and which wagons wouldn't you agree with?

Fun times.

KTS, you are my main townread.

I'm voting my scumread, Io. I dunno, can't say I read her as 100% scum. I thought she was just trolling me by spelling my name wrong, yet she has been in complete denial about that... so I have to default back to thinking scum.

Rosske, I get this odd feeling about him like he is trying to be my friend by voting my scumread, but without giving independent reasons for his voting. Maybe if he shared his reasoning and it made sense I could consider him more likely to be town, but his current play gives him a scum lean.

Thor, I'm unsure about. Had some heated back & forth but in retrospect I'm thinking we just both are stubborn and wanted to be right, doesn't mean he is scum. Wouldn't want to push him while he is on V/LA anyway.

[karnos]

I seem to have a talent for getting hammered on weekends while I'm away from my computer, second game in a row where this happened.

GL town. Make sure you lynch Io for me tomorrow.

[karnos]

Good game, transcend almost pulled it through. Terrible day 1 for me, it happens.