Mini Normal 1844 Firework Mafia. Game Over

[JaeReed]

@CCC those are different to this. They were actively trying to set up teams with the person they were voting.

Assume I get announced as Innocent Child (confirmed town) who do you then think is mafia?

That seems highly unlikely.

But if it were to happen, then my top scumread would be Transcend - that's a substantially weaker read.

So you wouldn't take into account that he's my hardest townread, despite me having meta on him and being confirmed town to you, nor would you re-evaluate and look at people's interactions around the confirmed town?

Quite frankly, I haven't seen good reason to trust any of your reads - even if you were confirmed Town. You seem to rely a lot on 'tone', which from my point of view is as useful a reason as 'magic' - I don't see what you see in people's tones, and so it makes it look like you're either making up your reads or you've got weak reads with little to no justification.

For the moment, I'm leaning towards the idea that you're making up your reads as scum and then using the word 'tone' to try to avoid giving much in the way of actual explanations of those reads.

IO, can you please be more specific about what interaction(s) between jaereed and I seems/seem disingenuous to you?

I also think Jae has forgotten that I've pushed on them as both alignments and they reacted by omgusing every time. /salt

I haven't forgotten. That's why I made the distinction about paranoia.

But I don't know if you forgot how fake my omgus was to you when I did it as maf.

anyway if you're maf here you've kinda pocketed me now so gj

I still think you're the one pocketing Impo at this point.

Especially since Impo said the same things about my reads (894) that CCC said about yours (985) and you only applied the reasoning to CCC.

I don't get it? Impo asked you for an example of where our interactions seemed not genuine. CCC stated he doesn't care what my reads are and doesn't seem to want more information on that, either. CCC has been like this all day phase, too. He hasn't tried to see if his read on me could be wrong; he's just focused on how he can possibly get his mislynch.

[Hermie]

That is interesting that ccc sees tone reads as nothing. If gut reads and tone reads = bad play then I am a bad player.(I am even if they mean something but even less if they dont)

[Transcend]

You're just gonna have to deal with it, Io.

I pocket hard as town.

[JaeReed]

ok so been up to post 30 of Lil Uzi's ISO in the game rb directed us to and I still don't see the supposed similarity in his play there to here.

Also going through his iso here...
Io had a valid reaction to Uzi's read and her vote on him reads town.
Dislike Hermie's thing in LUV's last post. It feels like overjustification. "If this flips town then it's not a bad thing" kinda stuff rubs me the wrong way.

[JaeReed]

ehhnn I'm happy with an rb lynch again.

[mhsmith0]

That is interesting that ccc sees tone reads as nothing. If gut reads and tone reads = bad play then I am a bad player.(I am even if they mean something but even less if they dont)

@CCC those are different to this. They were actively trying to set up teams with the person they were voting.

Assume I get announced as Innocent Child (confirmed town) who do you then think is mafia?

That seems highly unlikely.

But if it were to happen, then my top scumread would be Transcend - that's a substantially weaker read.

So you wouldn't take into account that he's my hardest townread, despite me having meta on him and being confirmed town to you, nor would you re-evaluate and look at people's interactions around the confirmed town?

Quite frankly, I haven't seen good reason to trust any of your reads - even if you were confirmed Town. You seem to rely a lot on 'tone', which from my point of view is as useful a reason as 'magic' - I don't see what you see in people's tones, and so it makes it look like you're either making up your reads or you've got weak reads with little to no justification.

For the moment, I'm leaning towards the idea that you're making up your reads as scum and then using the word 'tone' to try to avoid giving much in the way of actual explanations of those reads.

To clarify, this isn't saying tone reads are necessarily nothing, it's saying that he thinks that Jae has nothing to base a read on and is concealing it by saying "tone" and being done with it. Notably, Jae hasn't actually substantiated what he says is a tone read, see

That reads list was a decent post (though a bit neutral about Io and impo). It doesn't make you cleared town given day chat and the possibility it was discussed in PT, but it's worth villager points.

What in particular strikes you as more similar to ccc scum game than town game in comparing isos?

Tone. There's a glaring tonal difference and his scum game tone matches this one to a T.

concerning 1st paragraph uhhh ok sure. I'm fine with that.

Can you also discuss why trans is such a strong TR for you? You've stated it a bunch of times, but I don't think you've really laid out WHY it's such a strong read.

I can't really. It's gut & tone. I just don't think his early play was his scumplay, and I am very strongly of that opinion.

Essentially ccc seems to be extrapolating jae not substantiating his tonal/gut read into the idea that jae is unable to do so because it's a fake read (and that it's a fake read because he's a wolf). There's nothing in there that argues against the idea of a tone read itself being necessarily illegitimate, and it's kinda misreppy (or lazy reading) to represent it as if that's what he'd said.

As for ccc's take itself, it's obviously plausible that this is why jae hasn't substantiated it, but it's equally plausible that jae simply isn't good at expressing exactly what it is that he's seeing in trans. Which is why ccc is a town read (I think his push is reasonable even if I'm not sold on it) and jae remains largely null for me.

[Hermie]

Okay that makes sense.

[CCC]

Quite frankly, I haven't seen good reason to trust any of your reads - even if you were confirmed Town. You seem to rely a lot on 'tone', which from my point of view is as useful a reason as 'magic' - I don't see what you see in people's tones, and so it makes it look like you're either making up your reads or you've got weak reads with little to no justification.

For the moment, I'm leaning towards the idea that you're making up your reads as scum and then using the word 'tone' to try to avoid giving much in the way of actual explanations of those reads.

This is actually confirmed mafia in my eyes right now.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=50

Wake & Drixx already disproved this train of thought in the dead thread with you.

I'm not saying that tonereads can't be valid.

I'm saying that I don't think

your

tonereads are valid.

[CCC]

Essentially ccc seems to be extrapolating jae not substantiating his tonal/gut read into the idea that jae is unable to do so because it's a fake read (and that it's a fake read because he's a wolf). There's nothing in there that argues against the idea of a tone read itself being necessarily illegitimate, and it's kinda misreppy (or lazy reading) to represent it as if that's what he'd said.

As for ccc's take itself, it's obviously plausible that this is why jae hasn't substantiated it, but it's equally plausible that jae simply isn't good at expressing exactly what it is that he's seeing in trans. Which is why ccc is a town read (I think his push is reasonable even if I'm not sold on it) and jae remains largely null for me.

mhsmith0 has it almost exactly. There's just one further point that I can add: as an additional reason for me to mistrust Jae's tone reads, I know for a fact that this particular tone read is completely wrong:

That reads list was a decent post (though a bit neutral about Io and impo). It doesn't make you cleared town given day chat and the possibility it was discussed in PT, but it's worth villager points.

What in particular strikes you as more similar to ccc scum game than town game in comparing isos?

Tone. There's a glaring tonal difference and his scum game tone matches this one to a T.

concerning 1st paragraph uhhh ok sure. I'm fine with that.

[mhsmith0]

speaking of tone, i'm gonna quote me some soah

Spoiler: On engagement, effort, emotion and tone

Spiff was doing stuff that you just don't see wolves actually do -- claiming a PR with still 24 hours remaining on d1 and openly antagonizing the people pushing him the hardest, rather than just slink away and wait for a shiny object to appear that drags the votes away from him

…

Cron was working super hard at developing his reads and he had the proper emotional investment in what he was doing. I don't feel like pulling up his posts to cite specific examples, so let's just talk again about the Trundle thing. He soulreads a guy as a wolf based on one post and has four reasons for it, and he's super proud of himself and patting himself on the back for it. Wolves aren't trying that hard to develop quick reads and they tend to struggle to come up with that level of insight and they aren't good at getting the subtle emotions right. And his whole day was full of things like that. Cron has played several wolf games on this site and his posting was bland and forgettable each time.

…

I don't have time to adequately respond to that post but one thing I can say quickly is that when I'm talking about emotions, I'm specifically excluding anger. It's the easiest emotion to fake and it's one that is often not alignment-indicative even when it is genuine, unless it can be traced to an origin in something distinctly villagery.

Emotions like pride, paranoia, surprise, suspicion, etc, are more difficult to fake. Wolves often fail to even identify spots in which emotion should be present in their posting, and their efforts at actually displaying more complex emotions are often quite clumsy, for example by stating their supposed feelings rather than displaying them.

But in the case of Cron, a lot of what was clearing for him was just the sheer depth and breadth of his reads and interactions. It's just hard to fake that much content so quickly and make it sound good. And few wolves are ever going to stalk other players' online statuses in order to catch lurkers.

Trans already is familiar with this one (since I used it to bash him over the head with him saying he was angry instead of actually being angry in 646 ), but if you're going to make tonal reads:

1) You should have good reason to believe you're good at it (idk if this is a Jae strength or not)
2) You should be able to explain where your tonal read is coming from. As an example of this, see my progression on Titus (who I correctly read as town) in open 642
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8196397
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p8196438
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8196491
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p8198933

This was a tonal/emotional based read, but I was able to explain pretty clearly just what it was I was seeing and how it fit with my understanding of her meta. It would be helpful for Jae to substantiate their read of Trans, probably not in this level of detail, but at least to the point that it can be followed and understood.

[mhsmith0]

Also the tonal read of CCC while they're at it. Saying "there's a glaring difference" is much less effective than actually being able to point it out explicitly and explain it.

[JaeReed]

Smith, with all due respect... Whether I can explain it or not does not matter. Every time I try to case someone people actually actively start going against my read or I get confused and 180 off scum because I can't explain it sufficiently enough for even myself.

My casings make people go against my reads. I'm not putting in that amount of effort again. It's disheartening and frustrating and I'd rather just explain the broader concept and know that it'll have the same goddamn end result.

I'm not doing it. I can't. My reads in my past few games have been crap anyway and transcend pointed that out to me and then demonstrated it quite painfully clearly despite me efforting hard that whole game.

[mhsmith0]

Explaining yourself matters in a few ways:

1) You'll improve as you get experience actually laying things out
2) You'll have a chance to convince people you're right, and (if you're town) just as importantly give people a chance to engage with your read in case it's wrong, and convince you that it's wrong
3) Through being open about your process, you can enable the rest of the board to read you better

[Transcend]

With all due respect

[mhsmith0]

Like, wrt CCC you should be able to point out the glaring difference. Are they high energy one game, low the other? Snarky vs serious? High emotion vs kind of dull? etc

Even that much will at least help to clarify where you're coming from. It's much harder when you simply say there's a glaring difference, because it's not helpful to other people to say there's something there, when you could just explicitly point it out instead.

[mhsmith0]

I'd further point out that in your push on CCC, by not being clear about what you're seeing, if he's mafia (which I really don't buy), he's able to discredit your read since you seemingly can't back it up. And if he's town, he's going to think you're full of shit and casting shade that you can't back up, and (somewhat predictably) think you're a wolf for it.

[rb]

Explaining yourself matters in a few ways:

1) You'll improve as you get experience actually laying things out
2) You'll have a chance to convince people you're right, and (if you're town) just as importantly give people a chance to engage with your read in case it's wrong, and convince you that it's wrong
3) Through being open about your process, you can enable the rest of the board to read you better

depends on playstyle. Some ppl just end up making big walls that could be said more effectively in 10% of the words or burning out/getting frustrated because the effort vs. reward isn't worth it.

many ppl are good at mafia and they all play differently

if i make big posts and get ignored i just cbf with the game or i get super frustrated at ppl not getting my points, so i just keep it sjort and sweet - if you cant sum up whats scummy about someone in 3-4 sentences ur probably way too wordy anyway

[mhsmith0]

well yeah, you don't need gigantic walls of stuff. but there's a happy medium between over-posting and saying something without backup. like, jae is saying there's a super obvious tonal difference between ccc as town vs scum, and that he's doing his scum game here, but can't or won't explain what it is. That could be like a 3 sentence explanation.

[Transcend]

should i tryhard tonight y/n

next poster decides

[mhsmith0]

y

[mhsmith0]

gogogo

also i'm going to bed soon, so you can try hard while I slank. best of both worlds, really

[Transcend]

ALRIGHT TIME TO ADDRESS EVERY MOTHERFUCKING PLAYER IN THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Transcend]

Burgerking:

I did give a TL;DR if you didn't want to read the whole post. I don't read long posts myself so I was nice to everyone and gave a TL;DR. Out of my 3 scumreads besides you {Hermie, rb} how many do you think are correct?

CCC

: Why are you being so neutral today? You've only taken a stance on Jae today and even then it was pretty weak and I didn't like the way you voted him.

CloudKicker

: Y r u a big stinky? When you're back can you give 2 scumreads and 2 townreads?

Hermie

: You acknowledge that rb's posts are scummy, however you think he's scummy town. What about his posts strike you as "scummy town"

Impoetic

: Were there reasons that you voted Uzi besides him being the leading bandwagon? Who do you think is scum on the Uzi wagon if there is any?

Io

: Am I a hard scumread for you or just you're paranoid about me? Because I really can't have you fosing me here.

JaeReed

: What's your read on Impoetic at this current moment? Keep in mind: the only answers acceptable for this question are "Town" or "Scum".

mhsmith0

: Do you agree with me that Jae/CCC are probably not a team? Are there any reads you have that I don't, and that I should take into consideration?

rb

: You haven't proven to me that you've genuinely been progressing through the game. Give me some reads right now. I asked you before and I'm gonna ask you again.

VWXYZ

: Still fos me? What about my vote was scummier than the rest? Also, I'm off of work for two days so I'm down to play you in the Jotto Tourney whenever.

[JaeReed]

JaeReed: What's your read on Impoetic at this current moment? Keep in mind: the only answers acceptable for this question are "Town" or "Scum".

Town, then. If I have to choose it's town. I think she'd be more focused on getting town read than she has been if she were maf. I don't think she would mention a reason for thinking I'm town that she can't push on, because it weakens her standing to do so.

She's sticking her neck out for me where she doesn't have a reason to do so as maf. In that situation she'd be better off buddying the stronger players I think. Or at least someone with more sway in the game.

[Transcend]

the only answers acceptable for this question are "Town" or "Scum".