PTs Not Released - Why is this a Thing?

[Frozen Angel]

There are things - that some people will feel sorry for after playing as scum

Like designing a manipulative plan to make someone look bad. Publickly revealing these stuff are normally ok but if that plan results a drama - or heartbreaking situations the details are better to be kept secret.

Its not about being a jerk during the game. Its about keeping your friends friend after them.

[Frozen Angel]

and before you attack what I said i must remind you people are different.

some are really sensitive and some are strong as rocks. Letting people handle what they want to share with each other is the best way to treat everyone equally and fair - and to not be cuase of a serious impact on some sensitive realtionships

Its a game after all. Why does it matter to make sure you know every detail about someone else action.

[Frozen Angel]

I didn't read the thread sorry.

But letting people decide what they want to share with others after the game seems a really reasonable approach. When the game is over, Mod has no need (and no right) to enforce anything.

[Frozen Angel]

If amod wants to publicly reveal their pts , they must tell that pre game becuase of current meta

if not the players did not signed up to see the private topics after the game. Thats not promised anywhere. and I still believe letting the scums decide to edit or never reveal the pt or not instead of enforcing anything after the game is more reasonable as we as moderators has no responsibility for post game discussions. For full experiane like the way you described you need to install a device on brains of all the players and reveal all their thought process after the game - or you may find another approach who knows.

The only data that a mod must out after the game -arguably- is full game setups and explaining game mechanics. Nothing more - unless they told otherwise at pregame.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm saying the standard shouldn't be

as thats not related to mods at all. Its what people may or may not want to share with eachother after a game. why is that mods responsibility to get involved middle of something that might cause serious drama and personal relational issues

[Frozen Angel]

Why is its mod responsibility to publicly reveal all the conversations related to game?

Your point makes no sense. People do hydra pt's - no one reveals them by default.

Scum chat is an extra topic which is used by a bunch of players only - and thats the meaning of private. Why should a mod Not let those players to keep their private conversation private to avoid further drama?

[Frozen Angel]

it's not the mods job to do anything besides run the game itself.

I maintain that releasing all PTs is part of running the game,

but once it's out there the mods job is done.

Ok here is the part we disagree on

How is publicly revealing all related player made data a part of running the game?

I argue when the game finished ; The moment when mod says its "game over" the mod job is over. even outing setup data and answering questions is even highly recommended extension not a responsibility

[Frozen Angel]

Oh, and it's their responsibility to do so because they're the only ones who can. :p

If your the only one who can jump from a roof , its your responsibility to jump down from it?

Your logic makes no sense here.

[Frozen Angel]

Your response makes no sense.

There is NOBODY ELSE whose responsibility it could be. Nobody else involved in the game has the ability to make PTs public, therefore doing so falls on the moderator. The decision of whether or not pts should be released is absolutely theirs to make.

Do they have ro do it? No.

Should they? Yes.

Should we redefine what duties are expected of a moderator, so they HAVE to do it in the future? Yes.

Why they should do it?

Your saying its their responsibilty cause nobody else can do it! I say why should they do it in first place? you say cause its their responsibility and we circle this again.

If your the only one who can do something why is that making you responsible for doing it? Its a data about a private communication between some players. Why you as a part of those small group who had access to that private chat MUST out this to everyone after game finishes?

[Frozen Angel]

no we shouldn't force everyone to out that private data.

Thats simply not making any sense. when someone wants to keep a private communication private , he / she wants to keep it private. It depends how much we value people's privacy.

Releasing a private communication has impact on people relationships. I as a human being won't do it unless the involved people say they have no problem about it - or I will warn about it before game start.

[Frozen Angel]

Why are they expected to reveal it?

Who is determining this expection?

I believe you know that's not the current meta nowdays so that exeption if exists is simply wrong. Cause what we should expect is getting determined by majority , community culture and meta.
Now arguing if its a right or wrong meta - your not supporting your case why should this meta change at all and I am arguing it shouldn't as its according to what we believe about privacy in general manner. You might argue even that is wrong but its not me or you who decides this. Its site community and moderators in this community who decides it after all.

[Frozen Angel]

If and only if this meta changed you can argue its expected from them

[Frozen Angel]

I will completely accept to completely lock my scum pt or even delete game related posts.

shrugs

have fun in your versions

[Frozen Angel]

Its that your not bringing any logical line of reasoning to support why should something change and I have multiple reasons and examples why its better unchanged - if you agree or your disagree it won't change it.

Your saying mafia pt's are a part of game and must be released after game - I strongly argue against this. Mafia pt's are a concentrated - controled private communication tool. You are free to force releasing them - if you warn the players or change the meta - But from my pov the way it is atm makes more sense

[Frozen Angel]

If its aint broken don't fix it.

this apply here I guess. This is one of the changes that its harm is more than the "nothing" your fixing probably

[Frozen Angel]

Before someone call me offensive like people usually do whenever I start talking on MS; I'm criticizing the proposed idea and nothing against Cerb or anyone else. I'm not going to apologize for no shit. I love him as a person and player and I respect his line of thinking. I beleive he is wrong in this - and even if he is right - till the moment I get convinced otherwise I see no reason for changing a behavior.

[Frozen Angel]

If its aint broken don't fix it.

this apply here I guess. This is one of the changes that its harm is more than the "nothing" your fixing probably

IT IS BROKEN THOUGH.

I read the whole thread after you said it last time.

and It is not really. It is a very reasonable approach for releasing a private communication.

and Fr the point you made about hydra pt's that's just sick to foribly release them as well. I will stand against you about this one... Two players in same slot can have a complete private communication in whatever way they wish and if they let you see their topic and thought process you have no right to betray that trust and out their privacy

[Frozen Angel]

You guys are saying multiple times there is no strong reason (by your standards) for not outing the pt's but you fail in giving a one single strong reason (by your own standards) why should they get public.

[Frozen Angel]

They're interesting to read and they help people get better at the game

That won't make it a responsibility for a mod.

The people who wrote them ; wrote them in a private topic. No one cares if you believe their interesting. No one is responsible for giving you whatever you find interesting or to help you get better in anything.

Why you suggest forcibly removing the term "private" from that is a decent move? and how is this counted a decent reason at all ... Your talking about yourself. Outing those pt's is not about what you want. Its about what the people in the PT want and do they have the right to want it private or not.

[Frozen Angel]

Pedit: Because it's part of the experience of playing mafia in this format, because it's the expectation(for me at least, and I'm quite certain for others), because it's VERY interesting to see how scum teams coordinated and worked together, and what their plans were, how they reacted to different events and how those decisions were made, and yes, to gain a deeper understanding of mafia through studying the play of others.

See my above answer

and my repeated refrense to this : Its not a part of the main thread of game. So you as a player of game has no inherited right to see that topic becuase your playing it.

how the term you find it interesting makes it right thing to do?

[Frozen Angel]

*shrug* there should be no expectation of privacy in those topics once the game is over. The topic exists SOLELY to facilitate the game running, and is private as a result.

Once it's over, no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to read it.

See the point is who are the people who must decide/judge if there is a reason for not publicize them or not?

Mod or The involved players?

I say both. Mod can enforce releasing pt's if they inform the players -as that makes it a decent appraoch to moderate a game in the way people expect if you don't make any exceptions pregame -
But as a topic those players talked into and Owned -by the way game setup gave them this "tool" They can request for not letting it publicly get revealed.

so in your opinion who has this right?

[Frozen Angel]

The only reason why it's not contained in the main thread is because it can't be, mechanically speaking. It is an ESSENTIAL part of the game. Any argument that it's NOT part of the game is disingenuous at best.

Pedit: I don't think it should even be a question. I think it should be known that pts are released, and players should act appropriately. SO, I suppose the moderator. The players choice shouldn't matter, because it was made when they joined the game.

Its not an essential part of the game at all. But I'm not going to argue about this. assuming it is an essential part of the game. why should all essential parts of game get publicly revealed after game finishes?

You are prosposing to give all the players the right - you beleive they all have that right. Thats where I hardly disagree. The chat is just a private tool in hands of involved players and is not a shared property for all of the players in game. Neither of us can convince the other is wrong about this principle so the argument ends here.

[Frozen Angel]

Hydra PTs are an interesting situation. I think they should also be released, but I don't believe it's as damaging to the game to NOT release them. So, I don't think forcing their release is necessary, unlike with scum PTs.

oh btw if you modding a game with this approach please tell me before signing up so I never join. I'm really really really protesting against "proposing" the idea mods have any rights to even ask for releasing hydra pt's after game finish.

pedit : No. I'm not talking about semantics ... Private communication must remain private unless the involved people confirm its right to release it.

[Frozen Angel]

But the reason it's private is for the purposes of the game, not any other reason. If scum are expecting that the PTs be released, which they should be, I don't see a reason to delete any requested posts and release the PT.

Its labeled private. The reason for making it private doesn't matter. either change the label and inform its not actually private forever.

If scum is expecting that pt to be release just release it. My argument is if its that a necessity/mod responsibility/a good thing generally or not.

[Frozen Angel]

Pedit: yes, what infinity said..the conversation isn't private because the people involved expect it to never be shared. It's private because the game requires a means of private communication between members of the scum team.

It simply doesn't matter.

Its a private thing - either announce your going to betray the term privacy or keep it private if the involved players ask you to. I beleive the second is better, more legit and understandable and more fair.

[Frozen Angel]

Oh, if I ever mod a game it will be with this approach, and it will be clearly announced in the signup thread.

sorry then

I don't play a game when your going to attack my privacy in my hydra. I simply will be offended so hard and its better now that you told its what your going to do.

[Frozen Angel]

I think it's reasonable to make mods says they will release the scum PTs post game if they will.

I don't see a specific issue with refusing to withhold the entire PT if the players know it's coming.

I have no issue with that as well

Please reread my posts. I'm sure you didn't understand my points at all.

[Frozen Angel]

Its not personal sentiment

I give you a my pov and thought process

I do believe there is a different view about a principle key that I discussed in last page. as its a principle viewpoint there is no way to reach an agreement on this.

[Frozen Angel]

hmm? I'm not talking about game balance or advantages. My discussion was about privacy

and I said I'm not talking about semantics. Private stuff are Private! I'm confused about the comments you all are posting now ... >.>

[Frozen Angel]

But I don't understand a specific reason why you'd want the PT to not be released at all in some cases instead of saying the PT will be released, deleting specific posts, then releasing it.

When I said I don't want it to be released? I said will let my scum players to have that option as well. Whatever said in that pt was said in a private secure location and I will let them decide if they want it outed or not. Noone else has any right to see that topic - even if their intrested or want to make their play better.

[Frozen Angel]

You might spam next 20 pages this saying the same things over and over and don't try to read what I said about my reasons at all.

or you might actually admit this has a basic principle difference in our opinions about who has a right to modify/release what; whats the meaning of privacy; what is the responsibilities of a mod and what effects force releasing might have. and as its all theory talk we both are right in our pov's.

[Frozen Angel]

I really don't have anything about the name

I'm saying if That conversation is private which it should be - releasing it - EVER must be acceptable by the involved people. Either tell them and get their acceptance pregame or ask them at game end. Thats the only way it even makes sense

THIS is not arguable. This is what privacy means ^

But My point when I was discussing this was that why I think the second feels better in application as mods won't take any responsibilities for the private data and its further effects after the game.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm saying I personally believe asking them at end game is more applicable as

- its the current meta
- its ok, understood and well impelimented as it is
- its compltely fair (not saying the other approach is not) and is according to whats accepted generally as privacy in human societies (again not saying the other approach is not)
- In this approach players can decide if there is something that can be annoying to someone else - or is annoying them if gets publickly revealed and they can manage it themselves.
- In this approach mods has no responsibilities or whatsoever about anything that happens after they announce a "game over" which is the correct way I assume.

and again I'm going back to my first posts. People are different. You can't just say what seems ok to you is ok to them as well. Some people are sensative. They might hate their friend for designing a manipulative plan , They might get angry for simple nonsense reasons and this is just a game. so allowing players to hide whatever they think it might impact later on is not a really moronic move as you guys are trying to describe it.

The rest of players has no right to see a private topic unless the mod promise them that before game starts.

Its a game after all. Why does it matter to make sure you know every detail about someone else action.

[Frozen Angel]

I believe she means she prefers to get their acceptance after the game is over because it removes any responsibility for revealing what was said and the consequences of said reveal from the moderator. Basically, she prefers it because anything which results from then pt being revealed happened because the players chose to reveal the pt.

yes this

[Frozen Angel]

I still think it's on the players if they miss something potentially offensive

Its not about offenses only. Offending is bad - no one should be allowed to offend even in a pt.

But being scum is about so much more planning and critical conflicts.

[Frozen Angel]

I mean if you want to discuss private things then you can start a conversation with your team members outside of your scum topic

this is not even related to my point at all

and this is not even ok if its about the other players in game. Its totally and absolutely a hardcore rule violation.

[Frozen Angel]

To discuss the ongoing game (players in ongoing game outside an approved pt) is a rule violation unless in some special occasions.

[Frozen Angel]

not approved pt - approved private way of communicating

[Frozen Angel]

You never responded to any points I made so its not a circle.

But whatever it is , it don't feel good and constructive

[Frozen Angel]

How is hiding it way worst?

And who are you to decide what is way worst for someone else?

[Frozen Angel]

and what? you know im a real person and i have images of my self. so you deserve to see my images?

what kind of logic is that

[Frozen Angel]

Thats exactly my point

This is a game - why you wanna enforce a rule (to publickly reveal everything) when players can decide what to share or not themselves.

Why is that healthiest for community to enforce this? What do you mean when you say its not honest. This is the game of dishonesty, Why should someone be honest about anything during or after the game by any standards?

I'm not saying letting them decide what to do let them to "maintain freindships". I'm saying if not you as a moderator might be the result for causing a drama or unnecessary conflicts which is stupid however you look at it.

When someone asks you to not open a private topic they posted in that means they don't want others to see their posts in there obviously. Whatever is their reason Its definitely healthier for community to respect that request.

[Frozen Angel]

A player who receives a scum role must be free to do whatever action they can to manipulate and frame

Thats how this works. Now your saying he must be outed publicly after the match - and in some cases - by some standards - in some pov's get publickly shamed for that. Why is that healthy at all?

[Frozen Angel]

that's an effort a mod can't enforce players to do

[Frozen Angel]

your face is a huge no no

we are frineds out of mafia game too

a hydra is a two people bound who share same alignment and slot and their free to talk about anything they like about that game.

How can a hydra work without discussing the ongoing game.

[Frozen Angel]

oh your talking about other ongoing games

we are friends out of MS

We shouldn't live and chat cause an ongoing game exist?

Get a room

[I'm not playing mafia anymore but still]

[Frozen Angel]

Do you know whats hydra?

[Frozen Angel]

a hydra is a shared slot

why the people in it - shouldn't talk about the game?

That makes them 2 seprate people in one slot - which everyone hate

Talking about any other games in a pt or outside apt (in skype - wherever else) is forbidden for hydra partners.

But we do have life and we talk with each other outside of pt's when we have ongoing games together - regardless

I know brothers sisters wife and husband playing games together

whats your issue?

[Frozen Angel]

what hydra pt rule are you talking about accountant?

[Frozen Angel]

Scum pt is way differnt from hyra pt

scum pt is a combination of different slots in the game

a hyra pt is one slot with differnt people on it

for me or other mods - we don't care if there are 2 people there. We are treating them as one person with one head. just like how you can think for yourself and a mod can't monitor your thinking process the hydra heas are allowed to whatever the fuck they want out side of the game and mods have no right to even ask about it.

[Frozen Angel]

when you enforced a rule that everyone should install a mind reader device on their head so you can monitor their thought process we will enforce a rule to not let hydra particpants have unlimited privacy.

[Frozen Angel]

any other concerns?

no?

good <3

[Frozen Angel]

don't play a game with hydras then

who is forcing you

[Frozen Angel]

he was tlaking about the game the hydra were playing not other ongoing games

[Frozen Angel]

they have one vote

if they both want to push that guy with their shared vote maybe that guy deserves it

[Frozen Angel]

"I agree, I want to piss on his face so fucking much - I'd kill his children if I could!"

this if i on site - will cause a warning

and they will likly - won't publickly out that thread

You can't punish people for having a private communication nor you can expose their privacy because your paranoid they might threathen someone to kill

[Frozen Angel]

(assuming the hydra PT is private)

[Frozen Angel]

thats the reason why private topics shouldn't be immidiatly released when game ends and people should have the chance to ask mods for not outing them

[Frozen Angel]

game mods make private topics of game (like scum pt) and will add others in them

for hydra pt - some will make them upon request (if they do they have access). some who moderate games themselve wil make their own hydra pt's - so game mod won't have access to it

and some people won't ever make a hydra pt cause they have other ways of communication.

[Frozen Angel]

hydra partners "SHOULD" communicate about the ongoing game

Thats the reason people make hydras

[Frozen Angel]

@BTD No one ever said scum pt is not an important part of game.

giving 1 day to scum team to tell their concerns before releasing the topic is not equal to lock it up

I never locked any scum topics in my modding history.

The reason the one day or two is given is to say "I gave you a chance to express any concerns, I have no responsibility or whatsoever about anything that might happen" and I embrace that relaxation as a mod

and Why you should see what hydra partners will discuss? That's the exact meaning of violating privacy. What hydra partners discuss is literally none of your business as a mod.

Its not about allowing them to insult. Its about alloing them to talk. For all you as a mod should care - their one slot - and they should act like one in your game so you as a mod should treat them as a one slot as well.

[Frozen Angel]

also cerb I didn't know having opposite opinions and expressing reasoning is bitching.

if its about the hydra talk I had with drealm - I will bitch the fuck out of it

Privacy is important... I won't let anyone dishonor it on my watch.

[Frozen Angel]

FA, I'm talking about my position and actions here. Since the status quo is to let the players decide, and I think it should he different, not doing anything besides complaining here is ineffectual. What is actually effective is running games with those expectations, and running them well, so that way the prevailing standard changes.

I explained why giving them a period to architect and censor whatever they like is good

why its bad - sell the idea to me

I'm sure that I'm not biased about this and I like to mod my games in the best way

[Frozen Angel]

either I will convince the mafia - its fine to let others see that or I will tell town there is nothing there to be seen beside unnneccessory drama and toxicity and its not really - what you ant to see to understand the game.

Its players game and its their private topics.

Let them talk it out and resolve it

[Frozen Angel]

^

[Frozen Angel]

^

and ^^ (for referencing to posts above)

I mean this is not even discussable

[Frozen Angel]

And honestly I'm on the side of releasing scum PTs. And the games I mod (at least the ones where I'm not a part of a modding hydra) come with the expectation that it will one day be public.

It's not like you're using some super secret strategy that no one will ever see: next time you play together, your scum buddy could just as easily say "oh the PT was closed but when we were scum together he said..."
If your scum strategy is so fragile that you can't have the PT publicized, then it's a shit strategy and you should evaluate it. If your scum PT involves you shit talking, then why are you so worried about it being publicized? Your scum buddy could just as easily say "oh yeah Kuribo said you're an ugly turd." If it's because you were arguing with your scum buddy and things got out of hand, hey I get it. I been there. But suck it up and man up to the shit you did to alienate your teammate. Or show the world what a dick they were. Whichever.

If you don't want the things you say in a scum PT publicized, you shouldn't be saying them to some rando that happens to share your alignment in this one game.

and we will give them 1 day and ill let the players deal with it

I - as a mod won't give a fuck for this -

if you want to make pt's released ork on "Players" culture as it shouldn't be "moderator" responsibility

[Frozen Angel]

If your scum strategy is so fragile that you can't have the PT publicized, then it's a shit strategy and you should evaluate it.

Thats non of your buissness as a mod to control this

scum are free to play hoever the fuck they want to play

and drama might rise from the "little stuff" not fragile ones

[Frozen Angel]

The argument in favor that I have is that it helps give context to the game as a whole. You can better understand exactly what happened and why. This is the same for say, why reveal what roles existed in the game. Or night actions.

yes

a mod should try to do this

No one said anything against this

[Frozen Angel]

I read through the thread again and still haven't seen a single good reason why it's a good idea to not release scum PTs.

cause no one said they shouln't stay hidden?

giving 1 day delay to releasing it and giving the option to modify its content is not hiding it forevere